So we're left with a choice of either keeping this narrow steep stair system which is not fireprotected or creating a fireprotected stair system that is more functional and safer than um what is there now. So yeah, this building um is extremely difficult to make changes to it. It's um it was literally built to be fireproof um back then. And so the I spent I don't even know how like two weeks or 3 weeks trying to come up with any other version um in order to fit any any version of a stair in there that would meet the regular code. And it's impossible um just because of where the walls are. It would it would mean completely destroying and possibly they're all low bearing walls is the problem. And so there really is no way to move the the walls that would be required to move it like the extra 2 or 3 ft in order to fit any other version of of the compliance stairs in there.
Um, so I don't know and if you need like 40 different versions to see how it doesn't work, but it is impossible. We've had engineers, everybody trying to figure out a way to um make it straight or bump this wall out or their wall out, but because the the way that it's um constructed, there's like this inner core of posts and solid poured concrete in the middle of the building. the existing stairs are up against that. So you can you there's this only this one small section of that that we can the engineer said we can remove in order to um because it's like not a major beam in order to fit this L-shaped stair in there. You can't go straight because above that there's a huge room that there's just no way you can like bump something like a a little whatever you want to call it hallway into the middle of this huge room.
So there's you can't go up, you can't go straight and you can't go backwards because of that being where the column the main columns that that um support the whole building are. So this really is the only version that can fit and it's so close. It seems way smarter to make something safe than say that it's off by a quarter of an inch and we're gonna I mean this the existing stairs are really slippery and we're just lucky no one's fallen down there and gotten super hurt cuz I've fallen down there myself. So they're not good. Okay. Thank you. Anything to follow up on that? Uh Mike board have questions. Do you actually need a fire rated stair in that location? Well, there had I mean if you build it new you would. Yeah. There's there's um there's a another stair in the back, but if but when we did the co compliance um in order for there to be you know the distance from egress then yeah but but we can't have it there is no way of doing that the way it is now.
Well, no, I understand that. But I mean, it it can't be treated as just a communicating stair from one floor to the other. Closing off the top and the bottom of the chair, but not both ends. Well, I the I mean, I'm going to get to something else here. I think you know the way the door discharges at the top and it looks like you have two doors at the bottom. Um I'm not sure that. And they're also supposed to be handrails on both sides. I don't know that you can get the It doesn't look like you can get the extension on the handrails down at the bottom either. Um that might I'm not sure. I have to look at that. But um even so, it would still be a million times safer than the existing version. I mean, that's basically the the whole point of this, I I guess, is we're trying to make something.
I mean, we could just leave it. I No, I understand. I understand what you're trying to do. I'm just asking the question whether it has to be a fire rated enclosed stair because um as a means of as a means of egress because it discharges up at the upper level into a hallway. Yeah, which isn't rated either. May I suggest that um there will still need to be a landing at the bottom of the stairs. So even if the requirement for the um fire rated uh means of egress were removed and it were open at the bottom, we there would still not if we met the code compliance, there would still not be enough room based on the added run of the stairs to provide the landing at the lower level. Well, I guess that's what I'm kind of getting to because if it's just a communicating stair from one level to the other and you don't have doors, it looks like you could reconfigure the stair to get an extra couple of risers like at the bottom at right angles and do everything you want to do but still meet the requirements for the riser run, you code requirements.
So, I guess I'm also asking the building department, do they have to have a fire rated enclosure? I don't think it was required. Well, I don't I guess I have not. You're the way that we did it. That's you're saying that you you think that you can extend you're thinking that we can extend the but we can't. I believe me, I've done it. The the reason is how far it has to come down before it hits a solid concrete wall. That's That's the head space. It's the head space that you I know that looks like there's room at the bottom for more steps, but No, no, I don't mean you have to have the same in the direction of Well, the way you've got it. First of all, let's let's back up a second. So, it the stair doesn't have to be enclosed or fire rated.
It can be an open communicating stair. Is that right now? It looks like right. I haven't done an evaluation in that regard. They want me to feel well because I think they're going to have other problems doing it this way and having st having doors at the bottom and not being able to make the handrails work. And I really don't want to do this again. It's possible. This this was applied for back in July in June or July, but you haven't built it yet. Is that correct? Right. And um often when we'll see a bar cross, we'll get pictures of the existing conditions. We don't really have any of that. Makes a little difficult for us to understand the rise in the run and supporting the uh you know limited clearances for headroom and stuff. So that makes it a little bit more difficult for us to review as far as information goes.
Um, one one comment about the the staff report. He says there there wasn't any exceptions to the rise and run regulations um in that chapter, but there are two exceptions for R2US and that's give me more clarification on that. So the yeah so the um uses for inside when I looked at the um commentary um it speaks to inside uses like that for people living um with this being a fraternity house I assume some people live there and other members are allowed to visit or can come and go as they please. Um and in the appeal also they uh talk about um that it's frequently used by fraternity members and guests. Um so I don't think the intent of the code for a stairway in this situation is that that um so this is the R2 used either like a townhouse or a duplex or in this case a fraternity which would be sleeping room.
So the stere would be considered inside the dwelling unit. Correct. because they're not individual units or sleeping rooms and but it's a a common used stairway. if you share it, right? But it's a common area like I would see it more as like a lobby or commercial building or um any any area of a apartment building that was made for people to congregate and the use of the basement hasn't changed at all. That's still going to stay a recreation. Can you describe the use of that space a little bit more? What what happens down there? Okay. Tables, TV, what? Well, there is a room with a pool table in it. There's a larger room that's a gathering room with a TV. And then there's a third room which is a study room. Mhm. And those were recently permitted and um finished as those uses. And it looks like there's a door directly to the outside from the space.
Correct. And that stair is somewhat code compliant. 7-Eleven. And what is that stairway? Oh, that was that was also built 100 years ago. So, yeah. So, it's probably the same 10in trail. I I would say it would not meet this 711 requirement. It's steeper and narrower than current codes. And that's just kind of emergency exit only that or that people come in and out of this? No, nobody ever uses it. Yeah. And the reconstruction of the stairs going to be out of wood or out of concrete. Uh they would be they're currently um designed to be wood frame. Mhm. There's also a section in there, I see in the drawings, you called this to be code compliance for compliance with the Michigan Rehabilitation Code, but you didn't indicate what level of renovation this is. I think that was a question in the plan or was it level one, level two, level three?
Yeah, it wasn't indicated on the plan. just it just referenced the um the uh existing building code of the level um based on the reconfiguration of space I was functioning under the assumption that it's level two. There's also a section in there that I think that refers you back to I think chapter 4 of the rehab code about 403 that talks about um you know when you do have limited spaces in stairways like this and similar to the mechanics today and the previous code when you have tight tight conditions for that you know there's limited rebuilding you have a limited space but uh I don't know if we have enough documentation to confirm you know the limited space requirements you know, kind of the head room, the you know the way the configuration of the stairway is. Um um you mean you need a you you need something a drawing actually showing what the existing I think what the existing layout is what what you know what what what the limitation is.
You say there's a steel beam you can take out you're already taking out one side wall because you're going from 3 ft width to 4 ft in width. So that wall is coming out. So yeah, that's there's it's on the other side of that thick wall. Yeah. So you're making descriptions of modifications of the structure, but then you're saying there's other things you can't change structurally, and it's help for us to to see that in a drawing and understand what the what the limitations there are. So um you know, can that that first tread going down, can that move back and give you longer run? No, it's right on that beam. They start the stairs at at the one beam and then there's another beam and so you have to make be able to get the clearance underneath that other beam. So we don't we don't see that on the set.
We don't we don't that we don't have you know but the structural condition you can modify um it makes it difficult for us to review it. What you're saying is that there's limit there are things in the way that prevent you from modifying it but we don't have that you know information. Well, I thought I was just supposed to show how it would be built proposed and you know what? So, um if you got to go for that that uh Michigan rehabilitation code chapter 4 that you're that you're working within the limitations of the space, you can't modify any further for structural reasons. We'd want to know what those are. Um, if it would make a a difference to the board, I think our clients would uh be willing to have this matter tabled today and um submit pictures and documentation for you if that if that may sway the board's decision.
Yeah, I think that would be maybe the best use of investigation time wise to to do that. um that way you can come back and represent that further. But um I mean there is an exception there that you know I'm curious about that cuz looking at the R2 exception in the code doesn't talk about how it falls into R2 use. You know that's to me is the commentary portion of that. Um, everyone living there, it's just 35 people living in the house you're saying and then all 35 are probably familiar with the stairway. Maybe, you know, guests wouldn't be familiar with it depending how often they come over. But that the rise and run of the stairway at 7 and4 and uh 10 and 3/4 long. It's pretty close to a normal residential stair, you know. So, it's not like it's a Well, that's a question not to interrupt, but I'm interrupting.
So what is the actual dimension of the tread? Because the the the code definition is from nosing edge to nosing edge. So is that 10 and 3/4 of an inch or is it 10 in? 10. It's 10 in. Yeah. The is is um 10 and 3/4. So it's a full inch short. It is. But it also it also is sort of weird how they mention it that they they say that the flat part of the tread is supposed to be 11 in. And so they don't say that they don't it's like it goes around sorts of vague about what that means. So we're 10 and 3/4. That's how much flat. Yeah. So your your tread end knows you're 10 and 3/4. Not just not not just your tread. Yeah. Right. I mean there's hardly anybody ever has 11 and 3/4. Nobody does that. Well, you 11 I think they're looking for the 11 as being the horizontal piece.
When you go to 11, you don't need to have a nosing past that. If you're less than that, you need to have a nosying past that. Right. Exactly. Exactly. So, you don't have the 11. So, um so basically it's it's the same thing. It's it's basically a quarter of an inch. And it I mean the stairs right now are crazy steep and they have steel nosings on them that have completely worn down so they're super um smooth. So people these guys are like falling down there. They have been forever. Is the building sprinkler? No, it is it is have alarms that are a smoke and heat detection and pulse stations monitored alarm system. It basically is fireproof. There's nothing in it except for like drapes or furnishings. That is interesting because of the application. You talk about it being a 3A type of construction and non-combustible would be a type two construction.
So I find unless there's wood joist somewhere but or the wood, you know, except for like trim around. Yeah. That would be structural. Yeah. Yeah. So So it's solid concrete. It's crazy. Yeah. So you maybe maybe have a better construction type than 3A. You know 3A would mean fire rated walls and and combustible construction. So yeah, the only thing over anything is plaster which is also like non-combustible. So yeah. Yeah. So that has a potential value fire resistance. So when you just looking at the um I guess it's the basement plan. If you were to take off two risers and have a landing at the bottom and turn the stair one more time, would that be able would would you be able to make the geometry work that way? I think this is what he's saying. Put a landing here and then put two steps there.
Uh, and then the question is, do you really need do you really need the stair to discharge both ways? Well, the the reason is there's no way to get in that room now. There's that wall. it went. I'd have to show you, but um basically they that that's going to be the way to get into um that what's it called in here? Um utility room or no, right? Yeah. If they cut this back to here, that be the work, I guess. Yeah. Yeah. Something here. You turn the wall like this and close that off. Yeah. And that's why I keep asking whether the stair has to be sorry whether the stair has to be enclosed or not. Yeah. Well, the the one one reason is they sort of want to be able to close that room [Applause] off doors there because of the noise. one for one reason, but um it they wanted they wanted to be able to go come this entire time.
You go down the stairs and it's open to the whole basement. And the idea was to be able to um close off the door to the basement since that's where all the loud things happen. But you only need one door then like at the top. Well, there is there is a door at the top, but believe I mean it it's not the best for Well, I guess where I'm going with this is if the if the stair doesn't have to be a fire rated stair and you know configured the way you're showing it and let's just say it was a communicating stair and I guess this is also for the building department. Will that would that help you with your geometry if you come down to the bottom of the stair and instead of having the landing the way you have it, you cut back two steps, make a right angle turn to the bottom.
I'm not I'm not totally sure because one of the issues with where it is, I'd have to do that in 3D. I do the whole thing's in 3D in the computer. Um the issue is where that landing is. the first landing. You go down to a landing and then you take a left. Um so that's the that right there that spot is the trickiest in this whole thing about the um the headroom. So if you continue down um there's a huge beam that's that runs like on this up and down the page next to the stairs to the right of the stairs and that's one of the main beams. So, I would have to see if the steps if you go down to a landing at the bottom, very bottom of this and then you add two more steps, I'd have to see if there's enough headroom to do that.