And I think that's the whole conversation, the interplay that we've been having. But I I think we just need to be clear, right? >> Because I think a lot of numbers are being thrown around today. >> Yeah. Yeah. And so, you know, the the deferred maintenance list that we provide um to senators chair's office today um that has all the um amounts um and the identified deferred maintenance for each of the um complex areas. >> Well, that's good. And and I think hopefully we can keep that list up, right, in terms of it it shouldn't take us months and months to figure out. Maybe maybe we can figure out how do we streamline it so that we we know on a on a rolling basis what what is our situation, right? >> Right. And then one one thing that we're working on is [cough and clears throat] not not related to this bill, but we we're trying to um look at the um the apps, the tech tech we have, you know, the CPT you hear about and the maximum which does R&M and CPT which does the CIP.
Um those are douful upgrades. Um and so we're looking at, you know, not just upgrading it, but how we get value from making changes to it, especially with sort of the outward facing um reporting part. It's a bit clunky. you know, we'd like it to be um clearer and more transparent. >> Okay. Well, hopefully you can wrap this all up and and then we can all be all clear on what what is the situation at this point >> um and hopefully soon so at least we can go into conference knowing what what is the situational analysis of the >> DOE. >> All right. Thank you, chair. So there there's two there's two trains of thought going on right now. one is yes we want to know the exact numbers or close to that as to what is out there which is what we've been working on but what I'm asking and what we're asking today is you know and you talk about contracts yeah you're going to put everything into contract but that's how we are into the situation where we have all of these monies that's encumbered in contracts and it's not completed for whatever reasons.
So just putting these monies, these millions of dollars into contracts doesn't necessarily say it's going to get done. And that's what I'm trying to find out from you. Not necessarily the exact amount of $2 billion, but what is the sense of the of of the amount that's sitting out there and what you are capable of doing? You're saying you're able to do $2 million each year um to for these projects, but you're not even addressing all the other projects that have not been completed. Are you able to do that? How are we going to bring that numbers down? So, I'm trying to get a sense from you folks as to where are we at in all of these buckets and whether or not you're capable of addressing these projects >> and not necessarily Oh, I don't want to throw out numbers on the top of my head.
That that part is in here. Yeah. >> Part I'm asking you now is where are we? How big is this elephant? And you're asking every year 200 million. Every year that DOE has asked, there's a portion of that that didn't get done and they keep adding to this unspent, keep adding to this backlog of projects that is just sitting there and the monies are sitting there. So, I'm trying to get a handle of it and if you don't have a handle of it, then you we don't have confidence that you folks can do this. That's why these bills are here. If if I could clarify um I think over the past couple of years with the movement of um line item to lump sum because of the legislaturator's help on that I think the team has been delivering projects and have been reporting in the reports of the board um just about quarterly on on the amount of projects that they're completing and it's you know hundreds it's a lot of >> but it's more than in the past and so the projects that are being completed again are the priority priority projects that I are identified in coordination with the schools, the complex areas and and legislators um to get those priority projects done.
And then you know there's all those line items from the past that you know and deferred maintenance that you know when we get we prioritize and when we get funding they they kind of end up on the top of the list and we try to build those but we're really focused on the priorities. >> Yeah. Well, you know, two or three years ago, some of those priorities were priorities and now no longer are priorities because you have other priorities that have taken their place. So again, you know, you're talking about a continuum of backlog that priorities all of a sudden get to the bottom of the list because now you have new priorities. >> Senator, >> so in 2023, uh the department's CIP unspent funds was $2.4 billion. Now, according to your facilities portal, the Hawaii Department of Education, your facilities portal, your last reporting of January 7, 2025, the unspent DOE CIP funds is $2.7 billion.
This is your guys own reporting now. This is your own numbers where if you rewind two years prior, 2023, was $2.4 billion. So, now we're at $2.7 billion. And I I want to be able to move these conversations forward so we can actually bring to the table some hardcore data so we can pass bills to get you folks the money you need so we can get the improvements that we need in our schools and in our facilities. But you make it very very difficult when you're supposed to be the subject matter subject expert um and you don't even know these numbers. And so this is why we get frustrated is because you come here and you don't have the numbers and we want to move forward from this conversation of unspent CIP funds and I have a report from your own portal. These are facts and you don't even know that and I know that.
So how can we move forward in the conversation when you don't bring us accurate numbers, you don't have accurate data and we're not able to move forward in that conversation? It makes it very very difficult. And right now we're talking about semantics between deferred maintenance and CIPs where pretty much the entire bundle that we're talking about here is how much money the department has tied up and it's in the billions of dollars and when you don't acknowledge that we can't move forward in this discussion. We're going to stay here and once we get to conference committee we're not going to have anything. So you're not giving us anything to work with. So, how can I know these reportings and these numbers and you guys don't have these numbers? And this is from your own portal. And here we are. We have we have programs in my community of a tutoring program that is working costing $30,000 a year that's actually helping our kids.
And we're going to have to cut that because if we have to tighten up on budget, that's the thing that's going to get cut. a tutoring program that's actually helping with literacy, with math, with reading, with writing. And now we have to cut back on that program that's actually working. And you guys cannot even come here and help us to break down the unspent funds that you guys have without even acknowledging the facts that you guys have them from your own website. This is your guys' own reports. Nobody's making this up. So, go ahead. >> Yeah, we've provided the numbers. >> Okay. But you've never said that orally, right? You just said earlier, I don't know. I don't have that information. You say that >> I don't [laughter] have it in front of me. I We've provided the numbers. >> How hard is it to remember 2.7 billion dollars?
Like this is a lie. >> Yeah, we've provided the data. >> No, this is a different set. I kept telling you this. This is the different data. This is the data specifically by schools. We're asking you for the unspent funds, which as pointed out and as I pointed out, we have the numbers. How come you don't have the numbers? You don't come prepared. We we have the numbers. We we provided it in different forms to you. We're going to provide you in the updated form on Monday, please. >> So, Senator, we we will get you. >> We're trying to help you. >> We will get you the numbers. U if I may ask though, the numbers that you got is from where >> your your portal. >> Okay. So, we will take a look at it. We'll get unspent unspent. >> Why wouldn't you why wouldn't you come prepared with that numbers if that's your area of expertise?
And you know, we're going to ask that question. I've asked that question over and over and over again. So why wouldn't you come with that number knowing I'm going to ask the question again? Right? I mean it doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that we're going to ask you that this is a bill on CIP. This is a bill you don't want us to take it away from you. You want us to allow you to do it. If you're going to ask us for allow you to do it, then you have to show me that you're capable that you know the numbers right. >> We'll get that to you soon. Elementary, kindergarten, not not high school. This is elementary. >> We'll get it for you. >> Well, this is why >> I don't want you I'm sorry. I don't want you to get it for me.
I want you to have it when you come before us so the public out there, the the the parents out there, the schools out there know what it is that we're facing. and and my colleagues know when they send us these bills that going to cost more and more money why I may not be hearing their bills because of all of this funding. Okay, so there's a reason why we have these public meetings so that you can provide the information to the public not oh we give you the numbers. If you gave me the numbers then you should know what the numbers are. Okay, I'm trying to be calm. >> Does 2.7 Does it sound familiar? Does it sound outrageous? Is it too much? Is it too little? Is it around the ballpark? I mean, help us out here. >> We want to help you folks.
>> That that is one number that's out there. And but the more accurate one is the tables that we're providing uh to the senator. Um we have a different version on Monday that's going to come out. So, >> so I wasn't privy to this report, so I'm not sure exactly what this is, but I'm just talking about the unspent CIP funds of your folks reporting. Now, this is not I'm not googling it. I'm not chat GPTing it. This is from your guys own reporting from your facilities portal. So, what I'm saying is how can we move forward if we can't even come to an agreement with where the funds are at. So when we are hearing a bill that is empowering SFA to do what SFA was created to do and you folks are saying that oh no we've got a handle on it we can do it.
It it's hard for us to have trust in the department when we can't even get an accurate number or even come to the table and say hey yeah you know what that that's where it's at. Where did you get this from? I got it from your portal. Um, and so this is why it gets really frustrating. And in our previous hearing, we're talking about school impact fees and we don't even have those numbers from you at that time. So, it's it's it's it's frustrating for us when this is such a priority in all of our communities and we need to come to the table and figure something out for our teachers, for our students, for our facilities, for our deferred maintenance, for our programs, for our curriculum. And it's it's it's it's been quite frustrating. So, I apologize. I know it may feel personal and I don't I know it may be difficult to sit across, but you have to see it from our end that we're begging you for help because you guys are the only ones that have access to this information and we're begging you to work with us by giving us the accurate numbers and just to be honest with us and if it's something that's a little bit too much on your plate, please let us know.
That's why SFA was created for this particular um for this particular scenario. Sorry, you look a little confused. >> No, no, I'm I'm not. When you said SFA was created for this scenario, >> uh only because we're talking about this bill, which is what's prompting all of these conversations. So, um earlier we talked about the vouchers and then you guys said that, you know, oh, we'll need more staff, we'll need more this, we'll need more that. And it's like, man, you you guys got you have to meet us more halfway, you know, because these meetings are just as uncomfortable for us as it is for you guys. But we have to keep the department accountable because our communities cannot just sit by while we receive responses like, "Oh, we'll get back to you, you know." So, >> and just to set the record straight, what you have given is the deferred maintenance by schools.
>> Yes. >> Which we've asked for, but that doesn't answer this question. And so don't say you gave my office the report because it also says here no CIP report yet. So you're you're not answering what we're asking for. And so don't rely and say we provide it to your office because you have not. >> Yeah, that was in the previous report we sent you but we revised working with your office and >> we want a general idea of what is the unstep funds that is sitting there. [clears throat] >> Thank you you SFA. Can you >> So you used to be with the DOE facilities, right? >> Yes. >> Do you have any idea of what the unspent funds are or any idea? >> Right. So I can give you a history. What happened was, right, the um House Finance subpoenaed the records or threatened to sub subpoena the records because House Finance.
>> House Finance. Yeah, because >> when was this? >> Uh 2019. >> Okay. >> And then >> is that what we have to do then? Subpoena the records to get >> Well, that's what House Finance did. >> Okay. >> But House Finance at that time was led by an attorney. >> Okay. >> So, so as a result, all the records were provided from the system of record which is the accounting system and that's what led to all the development of these tracking systems for transparency. That showed everything which showed unspent funds, obligated funds, construction contracts, design contracts, construction purchase orders, blanket incumbrances. It was completely transparent because it was threat of subpoena. Either that you don't provide it, that's a class C felony and you're subject to separate penalties. >> Okay. So that whole system was set up that systems now are being turned off or not maintained.
So that's why there is no it's hard to find out what our fiscal position is. The key of the data has to come from the system of record. Anytime it's abstracted in a report, you don't have any idea, right? >> So why has it been turned off? >> I don't know. It's just not working now. >> So superintendent, why has it been turned off? I think I have no answer to that. >> But it is turned off, right? >> I have no answer to that. >> Well, when I tried going on, it's not on. When I tried getting update on Kay Bridge or any other thing um sus, it's not on there and and it's supposed to be the tracking system. And I brought this up before I brought this up last year. I brought this up the year before. And I've showed you guys the and I think I've showed you in my office how the it's not the numbers are not there.
So somebody's turned it off and you folks are not maintaining it. So that's that's that's one problematic. Okay. So what what is on the portal that we're seeing and what is it? What what is that large number? Not to be to the penny but give us an idea. >> No. So so the system is not current. So we don't know what the actual numbers are. The reason why it's so large is during a series of time for four summers. The the the normal course of CIP is right a bianium budget you get a lot of money you design you encumber then you spend the next summer and you do construction for the next two summers and that's the normal course. What happened was for four summers construction wasn't scheduled. So that's what created this incredible obligated funds backlog of a billion dollars because when you miss four summers, you can never catch up.
And that's the situation. That's why the obligated funds is so astronomical. >> So what's the answer? How do we fix it? You really have to stop giving appropriations for probably the next banium budget, two years, and you just have to grind away at this incredible obligated funds backlog of construction contracts. And until you do that, all you're doing is you're just digging the whole team. >> Can you comment on that, Senator Fenda? you agree that we have this backlog and something's ought to be done? >> Um I I do. Um Senator, I definitely believe that uh we need to do it. We Something needs to be done for the backlog. >> How do we do it? >> Um again u you know I defer to my team. I do know if I'm not mistaken. So if I'm not mistaken and Mr. Fujitani can can comment on this.
um the four summers that uh the backlog occurred in I believe was during started with covid >> or during the covid period matter >> and and but that was that's important I think because during that time uh we couldn't do con construction was not being done in the department >> well whatever happened we have this backlog so the question is what are we doing about it >> what are we doing about it >> so we are as deputy shared uh we are assessing where we are we're moving forward with the projects that we have and the leg funding that currently the legislature gives to uh we're we're implementing that and moving that forward. We do have a backlog and uh Mr. Fuchanani I think is well aware of the backlog that we have because he was the director of um uh you know security services at that time and so um it it is extensive I the exact number I don't have that exact number for you >> I do know we do have a large backlog and we are working on it >> number but I want to get >> but we are we are definitely working on it so we're there's kind of two things happening right one we're keeping up with the trying to keep up with the work that we have now based on the allocations that we get from the legislature to move forward and at the same time trying to address uh the number of line items >> that um >> okay >> are historical.