So that's that for me it's a series of moments that tell that same consistent story that we have to learn to take care of ourselves in the process. And if we can learn it earlier in our career rather than later, life's going to be better. And so that's that's what we're trying to get people to. For sure. You know, cuz you know, regret only goes one way, unfortunately, you know, um and >> I I've I've had similar conversations, you know, where you try to think about, okay, what was that sixth birthday like, you know, and it's it's hard sometimes. Yes. >> You know, for me I think, you know, almost like a model where the stress is in in these positions, these town manager, city manager positions, are you know, you're sitting in this gap between resident expectations, your select board or council's expectations, and the employees' expectations.
And um then you don't have um a level and I'll just use above you or or or under you that you can share this stuff with. So it's like the pressure's coming in from these different sides and then you don't have a relief valve, you know, going up or down. >> Yeah. That's kind of the model I see in my mind um when I think about where the stress emanates from. Would you all agree with that or do you see see it from a different perspective, maybe? I would 100% agree. We have a visual we show in our presentations. We show an org chart. And it's a normal and you got your your front line keeping everything nice and firm. You got your middle management, your executive team, and ultimately that crazy person at the top. And then we do a little magic trick where we flip that upside down.
And now you've got this this upside down pyramid that is resting on that one crazy person. And uh it's I think for a lot of city managers they look they go, "Oh my god." It's like, "Yeah, you have the weight of this city bearing down on you." And then we we do the next slide, which is a little line of like five to seven circles underneath that. And what I try to get people to understand is you not only have the weight of the city and the staff bearing down, you then have pressure coming from below. And understanding that, I like we're doing a council retreat next week, and I love showing this to councils cuz I'm like, "Guys, even in the best case scenario, you are putting pressure on your manager." And so that is that's why I mean the the tenure here in Texas, I know I think Austin Bleace in Jersey Village, Texas did some research, and it's just right around 4 years is the the tenure for a city manager.
That is so short. That is such a I mean I I refer to y'all as being like itinerant preachers. You just go town to town to town, and eventually something happens, you know, because that that's so much weight to bear, and I think that's where that lack of sustainability comes from. Is it's not a model that we're really built for. And so that's where we've got to figure out how do we relieve some of that pressure? How do we make sure that it's not just external, but internal? How are you taking care of yourself so you can show up, and you can deal with that long term? And it's I think you're you're right about that model. It is there there's tremendous weight coming from all sides, and that's why community matters. You guys need each other. Like y'all have got to find better ways of being honest.
Because I've been to a lot of of, you know, state city management conventions, and I see it a lot where everybody's sitting around going, "Hey, how's your city? How are things going?" "Oh god, we're so good. We're so busy, man. We're growing. We got this and this and this." And internally I'll talk to them on the side, and they're like, "Yeah, I don't know if I want to be a city manager anymore." I'm like, "What? Go talk to your friends. Why are you telling me?" >> [laughter] >> Yeah, but they don't want to do that. They don't want to appear weak, right? Yeah. There there is an element of that, I think, in in all the associations. Um yeah, [snorts] Jonathan, Seth, anything anything to add around that? I I think again, you guys have nailed it. I think it is again, it's that it's the weight.
It's the reality and yet there are um I think it's just the permission. I talk about that in most of my keynotes and in my coaching. It's you guys should give yourself permission to be human. Yes. I think you guys are you guys are in that's the other thing, especially for the city managers, uh county administrators, you're CEOs of these massive organizations that have so many components. I mean, that's the thing about local government. It's not like you're doing one thing. I mean, just if you had to just make sure water happened, that's a job of its own. And yet you've got water and trash and you've got every festival under, you know, God's green earth and you've got I mean, every component. And yet you've got and you every one of them's got to be perfect. Uh because again, we we just said it.
You'll hear about it if it's not. And so that's a lot of weight and it's a lot of responsibility and it's not like you're, you know, you're you're given some knockoff, you know, delivering some knockoff toy that's going to be put in the garage in 2 weeks. Like these are the vital things of life. And so how do you do that? How how do you I What's always interesting to me and what's kind of opened my eyes to local government? Maybe we'll get into more of this in in the next question, but it's you oversee present realities Yeah. and future. Though that is so much weight and that is so many I mean, your brains I just my brain kind of turns to jelly just thinking about that thought from a macro level of all the present-day projects and realities. And yet you got to think about infrastructure that's 50 years away.
And are Do we have enough money for this? Are we planning for this? Are we building this? I mean, it's a it's an inspiring work, but it is it's a crazy work, and you got to be a little crazy to dance. Yeah. Yeah, craziness is a good word. >> quick, Seth, this is why I think city managers need to spend more time with business owners. Because I used to describe owning a business as the dumbest job on the planet Earth. 90% of us fail. And that's that's crazy odds when you start a business like, "Oh, I'm going to do this forever." No, you're not. You're probably going to die in the process. It's a crazy job. And then I met city managers, and I'm like, "I think that's crazier." Cuz you're like, "I want seven bosses. Let's do that." You know? And so I think, honestly, entrepreneurs and city managers need to spend more time together because it's a similar journey of you're living in the present.
Oh god, I got to make payroll today. I got to send this email. I got to do this. And also, where we headed in the next 20 years? And what's the next big thing in It's this It's a tension point. And I think they can learn from each other. They can lean on each other. They can love on each other. And help each other figure out how to do that. And so I'm I'm As we're talking about this, I'm like, "How do we start connecting more entrepreneurs and CEOs with municipal CEOs to see what what synergy can happen there?" I think that would be interesting. Mhm. Yeah, I think that's a great call call out. Um that that idea of dealing with the the ins and outs and the day-to-day, but also understanding you have that existential threat of whatever it is looming around the corner.
AI's coming and changing uh the in the particular industry that I I'm in or um there are are strikes that are happening around me. Uh like so like those existential threats. Uh but having to to understand the the day-to-day reality. Um and then the other part of what you said I thought was something uh important. Having uh actually both times you you you you spoke, Chad, actually spoke about it. Uh it's having that network of people uh and that connection where you can be vulnerable. Uh I know Seth does some some work around it, too, but just having that space that you can actually uh commiserate, share ideas, uh and talk through from a place of vulnerability um that that is what is going to create that that longevity uh that that needs to to to be had to literally be day in and day out, but then also prepare for the 50-year-old infrastructure that is going to hit your desk once you kick the can as far as you can go.
>> [laughter] >> Yeah. Yeah, it's um it I think part of um part of that pressure and part of part of what can lead to burnout is when you just have so many things to do and you don't have enough time to do them. Because I this is the worst situation I feel like any organization can be in is when you're doing so many things that you can't do them any of them well. Nobody wants to go to work knowing that they're going to be delivering a C+ product even though they're giving A+ effort just because they don't have the resources, whether that be time or or or or whatever, you know, just yeah, hours in the day to do that. Um and I see it that happening with a lot of local governments because the demands on local governments are coming are becoming more and more, I I think, vocal or they're coming out to light more.
And the funding associated with that coming from different organization or different levels of government, I should say, like state and federal is not coming in the way it used to, as well. So, we're getting this squeeze and it's it can be very frustrating um as I'm sure you're hearing. Um I Are you hearing similar stories or something different that's causing causing um more of that friction. I and I would say the friction between society and government just in general. Well, I think you've nailed it. Is that burnout is really two main branches connected to the same root. It is overwhelm and underwhelm. You are overwhelmed and like you said, only able to really do C+ work because there's just too much to get done. Or you're underwhelmed where you feel like you're just a part of the bureaucratic, you know, red tape pushing one pile of rocks to another location and pulling it back again.
So, it's underwhelm and overwhelm, but both of those have the same root and that is worth, value, appreciation. Humans desire to be seen, heard, and valued. We desire to be and that's why I think what brings people into local government. I'm always baffled at 99% of the interviews I do where I say, "Did you have any awareness of local government growing up? When did you know you want to become a city manager?" Yesterday. Like, they No one knows about local government even those who serve at the highest levels of it is that they're coming into it. And so, and so what but when they did, when they learned about it, when they got an opportunity, an internship, etc., all of a sudden it was like a flies to What do they say? Honey? Like, it was like, "I got to do this. This is so missional.
It's so powerful. It's so motivating." And then life happens and the overwhelm and the underwhelm and and I think that's what we have to look at. Are we helping people within the organization? Are we helping those outside of the organization, our residents, our business owners, etc.? Are we connected to what we're trying to do and that's make thriving places. And and let's see our people. Let's see the Let's apprecia- have a more appreciation. I think that's a part of the story is that yeah, that burnout happens because we're overwhelmed or we're underwhelmed and and leaders specifically Okay, you know, a handful of the conversations I've had. I remember Kevin Phelps who now retired a city manager in Glendale, Arizona said, I am not the CEO of this organization as the city manager. He goes, I am the CCEO. I'm the chief culture officer. My job is to make sure the culture of this place is awesome.
The people love to the highest of the lowest levels, they love showing up for work. They see what they're doing to make a difference. They feel connected to that by the very work that they do and that fires me up. Yeah. Yeah, that's that's that's super inspiring. You know, when you hear hear that you you hear the energy, you know, kind of coming through. It's really um it's really nice to be in the presence of somebody like that that that can throw that out. Um Is your Let me I want to throw something out here, too. I think the you know, you described the the lack of civility, the the public has their opinions. We got we got so much happening and it's easy to point to those things and go, well, of course I'm burned out. And I think what we have to understand through the work we've done, I think what we've learned is that burnout is not an external fight, it's an internal fight.
Because one of the things you said is when you have too much to do and not enough time to do it. That is usually a sign you're burned out. You're so overwhelmed. What's the priority? How do we How do we tackle all this? How do we get it all done, you know? When you take care of yourself, you show up and you have the overwhelm under control because you're you're taking care of yourself. You see things for what they are and you're able to prioritize and you're able to say, you know what, it's okay if we don't get all this done today. It is okay. It doesn't mean I'm a failure. I'm good. We're going to get as much as we can done with a certain quality level and the rest will still be there tomorrow. That's what's required because when we when we feel like we're broken or we're not enough, God, we're going to try to prove that we're okay.
Oh, yeah. Excuse me. Choke on my own words, literally. Uh we are we're going to try to prove we're okay by getting everything done and it all being a success. And it's not possible. It's not sustainable. And so the things are going to happen externally. That is your job. That is 100% reality. The question is what version of you is showing up to deal with that? Are you taking care of yourself enough to prioritize to keep the overwhelm at bay and then make sure you're winning that battle? Because then you're able to actually lead. Then you're not leading from a place of fear and I've got to get it all done to prove something. You're leading from a place of hope and confidence. And guys, we got this. We're going to get done what we're getting done today. We're going to work hard. We're going to get there.
And our theory is we want everybody to go home tired but fulfilled. And y'all have talked about today like the the fact that being a part of something bigger than yourself matters. And I think that's where the fulfilled comes from. I think we're real good at the tired part. Man, we When was the last time a public servant didn't go home exhausted at the end of the day? It's every day, right? We're so good at that. But the fulfilled comes from finishing that day and going, "You know what? We mattered today." And that the the CCO, the chief culture officer, right? I I was thinking of it as a chief cheerleading officer. Like to be that person going around, "Guys, you mattered today. I'm so proud of you. Congratulations. Let's do this again tomorrow." God, we need that. And that energy, that drive only comes from knowing we mattered.
And the only way we ever tap into that is if we take care of ourselves. And we have to learn to prioritize us because we're the we're this tension point, right? If you're a city manager, God, you're you've got the citizens pulling on you, you've got the council pulling on you, you've got the the staff pulling on you, you've got national crap coming in like y'all talked about, putting pressure and pulling on you. You have to manage you because you are at the center of all that tension. And we desperately need to to I think flip that and say, "Man, how are we, instead of managing all that crap, how are you managing you?" Cuz if you get that down, you can manage all the other stuff. I know you can. It's just taking care of us, which that's that's so hard to do. We don't prioritize ourselves enough.
What What do you think the role of self-awareness is in in a successful city or town manager? Off the charts. It's the number one thing Everything? >> [laughter] >> Yeah. Maybe expound a little bit on on why that is. From your perspective. >> you have to In In my personal opinion, I feel like you have to understand where you are, um what your We hear it a a a hundred ten times. Uh I'm in this world to to not play politics. I'm in here to execute on the things that are getting given and put in front of me. Uh but then you have to truly know yourself well enough to know what do I actually think about something and how does that affect the way that I deliver it? Uh what do I think this council uh person thinks about that and how does that affect how I deliver it?