Board of Selectmen - Special Meeting (Budget Workshop) - April 13, 2026 7pm

001We should be going live whenever you You're live. Saturday night. Cameras on, but mics are off. Yeah. The cameras are on, mics are off. Cool, Harrington. Good evening. Today is Monday, April the 13th, 2026 at 7:00 p.m. I'd like to call to order the special meeting budget workshop for the Board of Selectmen. Troy Lemire. Kevin Bishop. Paul Marino. Paul Harrington. Todd Arslanian. Glenn Albernaz. >> William Hester. Cheryl Heffernan McGlinn. William Pozo. [clears throat] Please join me for the Pledge of Allegiance. Pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. >> [clears throat] >> Item three, consider and possibly act on the town manager's proposed budget. Town Manager Harrington with a recap. Well, can we

002Can we just point out, can we do an agenda review, too, and try to add public comment or in correspondence? I know we received some emails from citizens, and I know there's people here that may want to comment during public comment. Can we add that to the agenda? It's a special meeting, we can't add to a special meeting's agenda Okay. because of freedom of information. >> [clears throat] >> My turn? Mhm. Okay. Um thank you, Mr. Mayor, for leading the board. Um I thought before we dove into any items that you wanted to to to speak about tonight, I thought it was important to set the stage for tonight's meeting and also Wednesday night's meeting. As we talked about at the last uh Board of Selectmen meeting, also public hearing, tonight we were going to

003concentrate on the town side of the budget, which is your general government, your public safety, your public works, your trash and recycling, your health, your libraries, your park and rec, other shared costs, town support for education, which maybe I would leave off for Wednesday night. The uh end of death administration would be the items that we could speak about tonight. It is your meeting, you can obviously speak about whatever you want, but the uh I will point out that the Superintendent of Schools, Dr. Luby, will be here on Wednesday. The board did ask that I invite Dr. Luby and and Mr. Suchi to those meetings on Wednesdays. I got a decline from the Gilbert Head of Schools, but I did get an acceptance from Dr. Luby. I then asked if Mr. Suchi could come to

004Monday, the 20th meeting. He unfortunately declined that as well, uh based on having other uh meetings that night. So, I just wanted the board to have, you know, a full view of what's going to happen on Wednesday and then possibly or that following Monday. So, what questions you may have to ask. I don't know what I'm not going to be much help tonight. Did he give a reason for declining Wednesday? Was it Wednesday, he was I believe it was a vacation, um possibly with the family, but he was away on vacation. And then the Monday decline was it's the closing in the end of the year, and he had other commitments or another meeting planned that he declined that meeting as well. >> Was there any other time he was available? I did not ask

005that question, um only because I knew the meetings that we had planned was Wednesday at well, Monday, Wednesday, and then the following Monday. So, we must need another meeting. So, we must need another meeting. Uh I will point out, and that leads me down another path. Um not that the clock the uh the sand in the hourglass is expiring, but per the charter, we we have until the 24th, but it's really not the 24th because at 10:00 Thursday morning, we need to get the ad into the paper to check the box. So, really the last absolute possible day we could meet is Wednesday the 20 third 22nd. Oh, Wednesday Which would be Wednesday cuz the 23rd is Thursday, 24th is Friday. >> Oh, okay. So, if need be, and if we have if we go

006into extra innings on Monday night, and we get out, we could set that meeting on uh Monday night, which would still hit the 24-hour uh requirement to post an agenda. I'll do it first thing Tuesday morning if we needed to meet on on that Wednesday. >> did you say Wednesday the 23rd? Wednesday >> 22nd, I apologize. Yeah, Wednesday the 22nd. >> Is it April in the year of our Lord, 2026, right? Sure. So, April 22nd could be the last possible date we could meet because we do have to notice the uh agenda in in publications on the 23rd, so it appears in the 24th edition. Uh moving on, uh again, the items obviously you can go anywhere you want would be the items mentioned above except for Board of Education and probably town support for

007education. Um with that, I do have support here from our board of uh our finance office. We have Tom and Anne Marie. We were going to have them plug in. We could look at different scenarios. We can put in the modifier, you can see what exactly it's doing to the mill rate, but I think I'm going to now stay in my seat and open it up to wherever you guys may have questions and want to go. All on the board has questions. You had mentioned in our last meeting, um that there were things you were working on to further reduce the budget. Is there anything you can report on to us that would reduce what your ask is at this point? Yes. So, a few things. Tom, do you want to come up? Anne Marie,

008do you guys want to come up and and [clears throat] and do the four or five line items that I know Tom and I spoke about today? First one being is the BAA, we do have a a concrete number. Um I have my sheet here. What number is that? So, the BAA, we had a million dollars uh into the budget that there's a possible million dollars in adjustments that would be made um on the BAA side of things. It ended up being Tom, the exact number is Uh one moment. What line item is that? It's not a line item, that's the That's a variety of >> It's the overall grand list number is going to change. So, it's not it's not baked into a line item. >> [clears throat] >> That's for whatever reason. And

009when you say you had a million dollars baked in, Paul, that million was actual revenue or assessment dollars? It was actual assessment dollars. So, it's less of an impact on the actual revenue. Correct. Um in essence, and we're going to show you I'm going to just switch sources over here. You know what, actually, that TV in the back will not show. You guys are going to have to unfortunately go to this TV. It'll show up on the side TV as well. It's showing on the side TV right now. Oh, no, no, no, don't do that. No, no. There we go. Final BAA adjustment is $862,220. That is that. That is an actual number that was decided for the BAA. All the paperwork has been turned in. Originally, and I'm going to stand, originally that number

010was a million dollars. It's now been reduced to 862203, which is a true representative of what BAA had decided. >> [clears throat] >> Tr- Got to be careful when I say that. Ultimately, it it does change a little bit in that 100 and what was it? $140,000 is roughly added back into the budget cuz the grand list is worth more because we we took less of a reduction than what we had thought we were going to take. So, the first uh motion if the board is ready that we would like us to change the B- And after this first motion is made, it will no longer be the town manager proposed budget budget. It will be the board of selectmen proposed budget. And, you know, we'll we'll get a live document out tomorrow with whatever

011changes you make. So, constantly are showing the public exactly where the budget stands. But, my recommendation, the first uh item that we would change in the town manager proposed budget is the BAA adjustment of 862 changing it to 862203. So moved. Second. Thank you, Paul. [clears throat] Thank you, Cheryl. Any discussion on that? Seeing no discussion, all in favor? unanimous Thank you. So, Paul, break that 862 for us into actual revenue. So, 862, so we can we can I'll do the math out [clears throat] right for you right now. So, it's 860 Uh Tom, Can you back up so He did that on purpose. >> Yeah, I know he did. 862203, right? Um divide that by a thousand, right? Now, it's hard because the mill rate's constantly changing, right? So, so let's just use this

012year's mill rate, which is 29.17. So, right now that [clears throat] gives us, you know, 862 * 29.17. That fingers here. divided by a thousand is that. 862203 * 29.17 Tom, why am I only coming up with $25,000? It's not My calculator's on wrong. So, it's less about Like you said, there's a way to phrase it. It's less about And I'm trying to be careful of what it translates into as revenue isn't It's more about the basis for your whole formula of your mill [clears throat] rate. So, you're saying you're now taking less of an adjustment, so you have more taxable property to tax to begin with. So, when you have a bigger pool to begin with, you are now taxing everybody a little bit less. So, for practical purposes, what that did was it

013lowered your mill rate now by 0.01. Is a better way to look at it rather than a revenue dollar amount, I would say. 0.01 Yep. >> [clears throat] >> Very small movement, but a movement nonetheless. So, you I got another question. So, that number 862203 um that does not include um Hartford HealthCare that could be a million dollars um because we're they're fighting us. I don't even want to comment as that's uh pending lawsuit right now. I I don't even want to speak about Well, I understand, but that's a potential that could happen. There's a lot of potentials that could happen, but let's let's not even discuss where there's litigation potentially going on in a town hall long session. Any other questions on the BAA adjustment? Tom, do you want to run down the the

014the minor changes, the five or six items? You want to pull that up on the screen? Uh so, these are some changes you know, this budget was was given to you on March 13th. We still sit down our our our finance office continuously to to to [clears throat] look at numbers to really zero in. So, these 1 2 3 4 5 six items you'll see that uh the purchasing agent um for whatever reason um we had the wrong number budgeted in the actual budget that you all were given. We actually need to go The particular position is it is not getting an additional raise suggestion of the raise. This particular number 51,778 is a contractual obligation per the agreement with with labor. Um we just had the wrong number in the budget. We apologize. So,

015we need to change the purchasing agent's uh administrative salary line item. Instead of it being 44,563, it needs to go to 51,718. Um I can continue to go down the list or we can stop at each one and do whatever the board pleases. >> Need a motion? We would need a motion cuz we are changing actual line items in the proposal. Um the next one is the recreational department. Um again, sharpening our pencil, general labor we had over budgeted by roughly $4,525. We're asking to reduce that line item by the 4525 number totaling 237,533. Senior uh senior service senior services labor skilled and professional. Again, looking at it, sharpening the pencil, we had missed the number by $792. That's for the good. We're looking to reduce that line item by 792. Senior services secretarial support,

016again, reducing that line line item by 697. Uh again, when you're you're looking at a bunch of numbers, we go back, we triple go back, we quadruple go back, um and realize that, hey, there's $700. We're going to go back to the board and say we made a mistake of 700 bucks, but it's $700, and we're going to ask you guys if you could reduce that line item cuz at the end of the day, we are only going to pay out 29647. So, we're we're not going to pay out the $30,000. So, there's 700 bucks there. Uh employee benefits, we are asking for an increase of $23,000 after the budget was given to all of you, we had an employee come in and decide to change his coverage. Um not only just it there was

017a life event. So, he's changing it not only right now, but he's obviously we we we want to capture that in the next year's budget as well. Truth in budgeting, we have to be honest and this one hurts a little bit, but we have to increase our employee benefits health insurance line by $23,000. In the retiree health insurance, just going back and looking at the numbers, we have to go up $16,200 on that line. Paul, Yes. >> also those two line items for the health insurance also is because we got the final rates from the state insurance plan. That is particularly on the retiree health, um that one is is going up significantly under the state insurance plan for the retiree insurance. Some of that on the regular health insurance line item is not just

018a correction of the coverage for one employee. That is also for the pinpointed final numbers that broker got us on the renewal. I'll make a motion to accept that through the budget. Second. Thank you, Troy. Thank you, Cheryl. Any other discussion on this these changes? May I just make one comment before you vote? I think it'd be wise um and I have now been with the board for two years. I want to include this sheet with our minutes. Um if that's okay cuz that lists the account numbers, it lists the dollar amount. I think, you know, what the board is doing to, you know, quickly move through it these aren't really controversial items, but I will also uh make sure that the clerk gets a copy of this sheet so it's included with with the

019uh minutes when they go live. Is that okay with the board? Yep. Okay. That's to join them individually or No, I think doing the motion if the board sees fit, and then we can just include this with the minutes. >> Any other discussion? All in favor? unanimous Anyone else on the board with questions? >> No, I got more. I'm not done yet. So, um we've gone into executive session uh a few times. I was talking about emergency services. Um happy to report I had a great meeting on Friday with our existing uh ambulance service. Um they have come back with a new proposal that I'd like to talk to the board about. Um their proposal if Shoo. If we look currently what's in the budget, Tom, can you slide that so we can see? It's

020not showing on the screen perfectly. There we go. So, if we look at what the current transfer to outside agency, you will see there's roughly a $420,000 cost in additional pension contribution of $6,000. They have come back and asked for that line item to be changed to $235. The paramedic cost will still exist. The other item that they're asking for is that $85,000 be turned over onto the town side to bring on a paid chief's position with hopes that they're going to change the entire way that they operate and do business and in fact in the 27 28 year they'd be looking instead of 235 they'd be looking at a 175,000 dollars and for 28 and 29 they'd only be looking for 135,000 dollar ask from the town. So they're really going to be changing

021up their business model functioning at a at a at a different way of doing business really going after the collection accounts that we've mentioned before in the past. My recommendation is that we do take this. I had a very long great meeting with Winstead Ambulance. They've been in business since 50 years. 50 years. I have it written on written on written down upstairs but they feel that this is in the best interest of the town and I also feel it's obviously up to up to board what they want to do. But my recommendation is to reduce the transfer the outside agency to 235,000 dollars and then add an administrative salaried position of 85,000. The total net net of all of this is roughly going to be about a 350,000 dollar expenditure when you factor in

022the the benefits and the the FICA that the salary's going to charge. So ultimately we're going to be giving Winstead Ambulance 350,000 dollars this year to to to run our ambulance service. >> Instead of how much? Instead of the 420,000 dollars. But we're still having that 185 for the We're still having the the the paramedic cost. I still want to sit down with Hartford HealthCare and renegotiate that rate as well. We still can't seem to get a date confirmed but we're working on it. So right now that's the best I have to do have to offer you is the reduction and and a new deputy or excuse me a new ambulance chief position added into the budget which then has that chief reporting to the town manager's office. They consider an actual town employee? They

023are considered an actual town employee. Yes. >> [clears throat] >> Which then gives purview to this board to myself. Things don't work out you know obviously we we have the the hiring and and termination ability on a day-to-day basis. So I think it it it's very exciting that we're you know at 235 and then we have an employee in the town you know managing the Winstead Ambulance and we can keep a of that a better watchful eye as they reinvent themselves. The the the the terms that we used on Friday was they're reinventing themselves and they think they can really do it. I'm excited for them actually. I really am. Does that position eventually get absorbed by the union? Typically chief positions do not. I mean I'll run down the list. I mean our chief

024of police our fire chief director of public works our finance director usually those I'll say executive level positions don't get absorbed up by a union. There's confidential material that you know they get privy to and and usually once you even check that box they typically you know don't go into a union. Questions? So where are we now with the adjustments that we voted on a few minutes ago and this ambulance adjustment from the town manager's proposed budget to where we are today? What's the total savings so far? We can give you a a rough preliminary. I the board has not taken action on on the ambulance yet obviously but Tom will pull it up. We'll we'll do a modifier on it. There's a few line items that he's quickly changing so you have the salary

025you have a FICA and then we have to change the insurance line as well for health insurance. All in it's going to cost that position Get my cheat sheet out. That position will be 119 322 02 which is an 85,000 dollar a year salary FICA 7.65 is 6500 dollars insurance premium roughly 28,000 dollars and and that the town is not contributing any type of a 6% allocation to any type of retirement anything like that. That will be up to Winstead Ambulance if they want to do that. >> [clears throat] >> So you're doing all the calculations for So what Tom's doing right now is if you remember from last year and I I know we have two new board members is we put them we've done it for several years and great job by the

026finance office. We have this modifier sheet. So in Tom and I were playing with it a little bit earlier today. What we're doing is we're modifying numbers add subtract so you get a better idea of you know what the budget overall looks like and then if you accept the changes we go in and change up the lines. So we can we can work more quickly showing you I think what you all want to see. Tom go go back up to the ambulance line. Okay there it is now. Right. You have the 85 is coming twice. You have the 85 there and the 85 in the modifier. Yeah both sides are No the modifier is the So the first piece of the modifier the 40,401 that was our first set of six changes that we had

027on the side sheet. Okay. That then the 34 322 02 is the benefits for And then Tom I I'm going to bring you back up. I might have I might have saw I can't confirm. Do you still have the 6,000 dollars for the pension that last line item in the year? Yes. Can you that's getting chopped as well. Uh-oh. Fail me now. That's I'm sorry 5,000. Excuse me. It was. >> is for membership or no? That five is gone. So truly the it we I reiterated the meeting today the check that would be written to Winstead Ambulance 235. That is it. They can figure out the rest of it but we're we're in it 235. That is it. I thought you said 300 something. What we're paying Winstead Ambulance is 235. The chief then comes

028in on the town side. That stays over on our side of the budget. They don't that chief would be a Winchester employee that stays over on the town side. They're not cutting the payroll anything like that. That employee that chief would be paid out of the town. So check [clears throat] would be written Winstead Ambulance 235. So with the VAI adjustment the six prior approved adjustments if you were to take the 420 420,000 down to 235,000 add in the chief position with the benefits and back out the 5,000 dollar pension your current mill rate is now there 31.87. So this is just the just correct me if I'm wrong. Mhm. This is just the town side this has nothing to do with the education side. >> Correct. Correct. >> at we're at almost two and

029a half mill increase with just the town side. >> You're at 2.7. >> That's the total. That's total This is everything. >> Well that's what I'm asking you. That's that's what I asked. >> This is the total budget so the 2.7 includes the education >> it on the town side? I want to know just the town side. What's the increase in the mill rate from the town side? >> just blow away I guess blow away the the old team. >> put the modifier in or blow away the increase on the board of education and the increase in town support for education. But that's small. It's it's 1800 dollars. That's not even that's not even probably yeah. for the board of ed. 2 million what 87? So take off 2 million 56. So it's 0.67 So

030there's two factors going into that roughly you have a 400 and 30 465,750 dollar increase in your debt administration cost. That's when we went out and borrowed the additional 8 million dollars this past summer. So you got 465 750. That that's actually one number in the budget we can't change cuz we signed a promissory note that's saying we would pay 1.739 250 in a debt service payment. So it's actually [clears throat] one item that's untouchable in a budget. I guess you could touch it but then we would tank our credit score and all that stuff. So that's including a 465 debt service payment and then the additional 300 I'm rounding 300 50 60,000 dollars on the town side. I just have a couple questions Tom. Total town only not board of ed but the operational

031for this building. The total dollar increase. I know it's 0.67 what's the dollar increase? That was at 350 number but we'll get an that number. I'll reference the the waterfall. Yeah, and my I don't know why my presentation Just go down to the bottom of the expenditures column. But that includes your Board of Ed. So what's that number? What was the increase number? Because the Board of Ed is 2,087, right? >> So it's 2,056. >> [clears throat] >> That's what I'm looking for. So this this chart at this point is pulling the changes that we've been discussing here, but now you're at 327,081. I want to say when I began it was four 450 427 roughly The changes we made changed the town operating budget, which includes the categories we mentioned earlier tonight. We roughly

032chopped $100,000 off. So we're adding 327,081 to the town side, not Board of Ed, town side budget is $327 increased. And roughly tonight we shaved off 100 grand, is that what we're saying? Correct. From where you were. So you were at four and change. Correct. And to be fair >> [clears throat] >> remember you know, debt service does fall on the town side, which is 465. It's really not a number that we can play with, but you know, there's there's a 465 increase in the debt service. So about 800,000. About 800,000. So we have a um a large issue that we have to deal with on the school side. Um bringing up the town side a half a mill um by adding a couple of um high-ranking um positions. I don't feel comfortable um adding

033positions on the town side when I'm going to be asking the school for and against the children. I don't think it's responsible um to to do that. So um What positions are you talking >> talking about specifically? >> a deputy chief and there's going to be a chief of the ambulance. So the chief of the ambulance is part of the savings package with the ambulance. It still still cost us money. Still still without that Without that chief, we don't save the money, correct? >> Without that chief, we we wouldn't be able to save the money that they're proposing. So that's that's how we get to the savings. The the chief the deputy chief of police we can certainly talk about. >> Technically, we're not really saving money because if we're going to add No, we

034saved 100 grand. >> position You saved 100 grand. I remember that. Your ask was 400 And it goes down. And I 420, excuse me, thank you, Mr. Mayor. 420 was the original ask. We're dropping it down to 330. $335,000 when you factor in the deputy chief excuse me, the uh ambulance ambulance chief and um what the ask is for the operating budget. I still don't feel comfortable with that, but Well, without that though, we can't save 100 grand from the ambulance. So that's With $100,000 savings I understand. Let me rephrase it. Even though we're hiring that guy, we're still saving 100 grand. I understand. >> Okay. And then it goes down Then it goes down >> And it goes And the cost of ambulance actually goes down in the next four years. >> year and

035the following year after that. >> Right. And that's 100% guaranteed. There's a proposal that's in front of me right now um that every year it's dropping um 50,000 and then then 100,000. So um we haven't inked any deal yet cuz we need to know where where we're going in terms of what we're actually doing. Was there a question in there? And I apologize. No. Okay. Okay. Made a statement. Okay. Other other comments from the board? All right, do we have a motion on the ambulance motion? I'll make the motion on the ambulance. So if I may help you a little bit um Tom, can you slide over just just so I can see it? You want to reduce the Go up. Go up a little bit. Oh, I think you went too far. Look for

036the yellow. Yeah, ambulance. So transfer to outside agencies going to be a reduction I have your new numbers pulled up. for $185,000 and adding a line item for administrative [clears throat] salaries at 85,000. And then you want to change the FICA and the insurance line? I have the modified in the modified It's in the modified, but shouldn't we motion cuz we're No, I think motion it on If you accept the package, we can figure out in the back end >> Okay. the changes. So I'm motioning the ambulance changes, which include the transfer reduction of 185,000 and the administrative increase of 85,000. Creating a line item administrative salaries at 85,000. That that too. And taking away the >> Oh, we're taking away the $6,000 under pension contribution. By moving the $6,000 It used to be six,

037we changed it to five. We're moving the $5,000 pensions. I'm stuck in two years ago. We have a motion. Do we have a second? Second. Thank you. Any discussion? Just for the It still says 6,000 is the change on that line. It is [clears throat] because it comes from It's a It's the >> From prior year. From prior year. It's the change from prior year. So in these line items, it's a reduction of a little over $100,000. Your net reduction overall with the increase in the benefits is just about 70,678. That's your net reduction to the budget with factoring in the benefits and FICA. Other discussion? Before we vote on this um This is subject to change if you don't ink this deal. A lot of things are This is what I have currently right

038now in this moment in time. I could come back on Wednesday. I know we did say it was going to be Board of Ed primarily, but the agenda doesn't prohibit us from just >> for getting this agreement with them? Obviously before we vote on a budget. Yeah, uh probably before the 20th. Good to know. Other discussion? If not, all in favor? Thank you. Unanimous. So that's all of the changes that I have come prepared with. Um wasn't from a lack of the three of us sitting down and or Tom and I sitting down screaming at each other looking at things differently. >> that before. You've seen it? >> For a couple of years now, so. Yeah, uh we've looked at the the revenues. We've looked at obviously the expense side of things. Um we had

039to dial up some of the line items. We had to dial down some of the line items. I think the finance office is is confident with the numbers that are now up on the board. Um And now I I I turn it over to all of you with any particular questions. I know you probably all had a chance to um look through the binders. There may be a few line items you want a little bit more uh input on. We're here. So I have a I have a question. So uh Selectman Lemire mentioned the deputy police of uh chief of police. Which one? That was put in because of accreditation issues, right? >> It was. I did include the letter um that the chief uh wanted me to include. Typically something I haven't done in

040the past, but I thought it was important that there were there were two main drivers of asking for a deputy chief position. First one being is the uh police accountability bill which says we need to be accredited by a certain timeline. Um I can let you know we're going to miss that. But a lot of communities are probably going to miss that. Then the second uh important uh factor was um the management of the supervisors down there because the chief of police is also the one that hands out the punishment. He can't do the investigating. So as the letter stated, we spent $10,000 uh in this year's budget having an outside agency investigate some of the supervisors. Uh the chief of police is prohibited from uh investigating supervisors. So that would be an additional reason

041uh why you want to bring out a deputy chief position. So if if we can hire someone from the outside for $10,000, that takes care of that part. Is there any other way that we could take care of the accreditation part besides hiring? So I think what you saw, I believe in the chief's letter um there was a a town I can't remember. I think it was Cheshire, but please don't quote me on it. I think spent roughly $50,000 to bring in an outside agency to start working towards the accreditation portion of the state of Connecticut. So there's that portion. In fact, when the chief presented his budget, it was it was [snorts] chicken two ways. It was either the deputy chief position or to fund a capital item of uh roughly 50,000 to getting

042us towards um police accreditation. I opted to choose the deputy chief position. Um but I think you'll find in the proposals that he did offer up um you know, he wanted both. That's not happening. I chose to propose a deputy chief position, but we could do it a a different way to try and get us accreditation. >> Tom, could you show us what what the budget would be without the police chief position, please? Or a deputy chief, excuse me. I mean, I want to make sure that you know, the police have everything they need. I'm just wondering if there's another way to meet those needs. Be a little I mean, you've just given some solutions. I I know that I feel that the board is is is probably struggling. These are These are These are

043tough decisions. So, I can let you know roughly I came prepared because I knew questions would be asked. The chief of police position, all-in costs, salary of 120, the FICA, the health insurance, and the MERF contribution, so roughly a Not roughly, it's 193,123.61. How does a lieutenant look in comparison to that? So, a lieutenant, I think you'd probably shave off, you know, we we brought in the deputy chief at 120. A lieutenant, by the way, would not be able to investigate supervisors. >> Other than the investigation, though, they can still help with the accreditation. I Yes, we need to confirm with that, but I I I'm definitely not law enforcement, but I can double-check. I would think you'd have to bring on a lieutenant at, you know, 100 to 110,000. You're roughly, you know, saving

04410 to 15,000 off of that 193 number. So, Could you explain more about what you said that you I just want to understand the 50,000 could be For 50,000, we could We could bring in an outside agency, and they could come in and start doing that work of getting us accredited. So, you're going to leave it in? Now, you're making me think on the spot, but that's okay. Um happy to report, first time publicly, is that we did get speed cameras approved. Um we should have our first citations probably being issued in 90 to 100 days. That's considering the 30-day wait period. One item that if the board so chooses, cuz they're they're wrestling, is that we we quote unquote punt this, wait until some of the citations start being issued, we re-evaluate and say,

045"Okay, the first year if we're Middletown, who actually ended up writing 600,000 in citations in the first 30 days, I don't think we're going to be to be that. There's a lot of traffic down there compared to up here. We could come back to the board and say we'd like to potentially fund an accrediting company out of that citation fund, which would check, you know, boxes which the state of Connecticut would want us to do. That's an option to to alleviate potentially some of the budget pressures. Also, [clears throat] we have the revolving fund, too, right? Cuz we're going to have all that work done and all the um police time that Eversource is going to be paying for us. There's going to be funds coming into that as well. There will be funds coming

046into that account as well. As mentioned a few meetings ago, Eversource will be back on our Main Street a majority of the spring and summer. So, police revolving account should have a healthy balance as well. So, did I miss the 200,000? Two yes, to your point. When you back out the 193,123 for the deputy chief position, that's all-in. That's salary, benefits, the whole package. If we are to remove that, your new mill rate is that number there, 31.68, 2.51 mill increase. Minus the school. So, the 0.67 Yeah, take it to the We're not talking school. Take it Take it to that that flows While he's doing that, Paul, what is the potential liability of not getting our police department accredited? What is the potential penalty there? The state has not come out and instructed the

047towns about any particular penalty. I know there's a lot of towns I've been I talked to a lot of towns throughout Connecticut. There are a lot of town There are a lot of towns that are going to make the accreditation, and there's going to be a lot of towns that don't make the accreditation. I'd love to sit here today and say, "Oh, there's not going to be any bite to that." Or there's going to be massive bite, and we need to do this. Right now, nobody's saying anything as if we're not accredited, what happens? >> Do we know what's written in the law? You must be accredited by the end of 2026. That's it. So, I'd like to make a motion that we remove the deputy chief dep- deputy police chief position off for now

048in this budget, and revisit it later. I'll second that. Do we want to add the 50? I don't have that funding. So, the mayor just asked that we want to add the 50. I don't have any funding source right now unless we want to add >> do that all later. Well, the concern I have is, >> [clears throat] >> you know, if we're waiting for something else to happen, I mean, how much time does this accreditation process take if it's supposed to be done by the end of 2026? Yes. Um again, the the state has been very silent on what happens if we're not accredited. Again, this wouldn't start until July 1st because the budget wouldn't begin until July 1st considering if everything passes. >> [clears throat] >> I don't know what the accreditation process

049is, but I know someone that does questions police officers. If they aren't they're not accredited, that goes against their credibility, and could impact prosecutions, which I don't think is something we want to do. So, we have to understand how everything kind of blends in with other stuff. What we do here can impact other things that we don't want it to impact. So, that maybe, and I don't want to put words by any means in your mouth, would you be willing to say, "Let's put $50,000 on the capital side of things to start working towards the accreditation. Fund it right now." I think we need to do that. We have to have make progress here, otherwise we could be putting ourselves in a a really bad spot. In the chief's letter, it was Newtown hired [clears

050throat] a part-time officer for 50,500 to do the accreditation work. 51,000? 52,000? I don't have the numbers in front of me. Um We don't know what that number would be right now. That's the problem. I I I think you're you're you're safe bet at 50. I'd go 55. I think you're safe bet at 55. I got a friendly amendment to your motion to replace the chief's position with We can make another motion on that cuz we'll add it to capital, so I'm not going to I'm not going to agree to remove the chief the assistant chief without having that in place. Well, that would be my second motion. Well, that's why it's easier to keep it in the motion. It's a different thing. I'll I'll help this one with that. I think what she is

051reassurance is that we're going to fund it on the capital side of things. So, including it all in the motion, I can do that. You can do different things. You can do whatever you want motion. >> Okay. I'll amend my motion to add to the capital $50,000. 55? 55. You will. 51, 2, you know. I'm just being safe. Some voices in my head were, "Is that going to be enough?" So, then I said, "Okay, 55." >> will second the amendment at 55,000. Trying to just level-set everything just so our clerk's clear. The motion on the table is to remove the deputy chief's position, but put a $55,000 line item on the capital side of the budget to fund a third party to come in and start working towards the accreditation of the state of Connecticut

052for our police department. That's it. Other discussion? Seeing no other discussion, all in favor? Unanimous. So, Tom, let's take let's take a look as we went down 193, but we went up 55. Where we at? So, if we're removing the deputy chief position and the associated benefits, and adding back the 55,000, which right now is presumed to be funded by general fund to capital. Correct. Also, it's pay go by some. Uh that's your outstanding mill rate increase on the town side only is 0.53 mills. And I think it's important Can you get in there? Can you give us the dollar amount, too? On that. We were 327 last time. Well, no, because also what's factoring is the debt service increase. Yeah. What I'm looking for is So, the 0.57 equals how much dollars? I just

053like to know the dollars, please. That's That's town manager stuff. That's just me. That's just That's just stuff that changed Oh, can you move it to the selectman column so it gives you the town number? What if you went to your waterfall one time again? >> No, just go to this one for now. Make it change. There you go. But we also have to back out the increase in debt administration. That's where the waterfall one would show it clearly. So with those changes, you're at $172,014 increase on the town side. What was the number again? I'm sorry. 172 014 That's pretty lean. When you think about running a town and with every day with all the pressure going up $172,000 >> Including debt service. Including debt service, yeah. Debt service is an additional 427. >>

054Right. Well, we know that's that's baked in. >> changeable. Right. I'm not going to get on a soapbox, but that's going to include your health insurance increase. That's going to any contractual increases. We did settle two of the labor unions this year. We do have baked into this budget when we go into negotiations with our public works and police department. We do have a number. I'm not going to state that publicly, so please don't ask what we think that we're going to settle at. That's been baked in the budget so we don't get a double whammy and we can fund it when those contracts are settled. So Perhaps you want to go? So I'll ask a question and and I'll ask it to selectman Lemire cuz I'm sure you have the answer at the top

055of your your head or Paul, but in this big book and I haven't found it in skimming through it. Um, how much money do we have for paving in there? So we are proposing the same amount as we've done in the years past that $400,000 in the capital account, which not only it's not a true paving account as Mr. Rollins has stated. That also does emergency tree work and you know, other items within the >> don't really have a paving budget. We don't really have a paving budget. You know, when we started to put this budget together Not paving. And pa- What did I say? Paving. Paging. Paging. Paging you. Paging, Paul. Beep beep. Um So how do we as a board pass a budget that completely ignores the thing that people care about at

056least in their top three? Welcome to my world. How do we completely ignore that problem? I mean, it could be a bigger pro- you know, solution. We may have to Paul, look at another bonding package of some sort, but you know, I don't want to face people at the grocery store or you know, downtown and say, "Thanks for paving nothing." The only savior that we do have working with us at this point, it's not a guarantee, but it's the speed cameras. That would be a optimal source for paving. >> Can we put that money towards paving or no? Can we I thought it was only for public safety. things infrastructure. You can't put it towards particular items in in the town. We know what that number will be. We don't. And nobody knows that number.

057And there was a press release that was issued today and a lot of the news stations picked it up. This this is about changing behavior, right? And and you've all said it too when we were going through the ordinance and everything like that. We hope we don't make anything, which means we have a safer, walkable, shoppable main street. But on the flip side, if people don't they don't change behavior, okay, well, there is going to be you know, some money over there that that we can then reinvest into our town. I don't have a number. >> I think with the amount of applications the state has in now from different towns, in 2 years the entire state's going to be saturated with these things. People are going to learn. One more comment through a town

058No, I hope so, but I don't know. The numbers aren't going to drop. They'll always be some, but I think the numbers are going to drop. So this is um my third budget experience and every year we are literally strangled by the Board of Education budget and we have nothing left to do the things that this town really needs. And it's incredibly frustrating. And you know, roads are a big deal here. They're atrocious. We know they were ignored for a long time. I mean, Jimmy will tell you they were ignored for 30 years. So now we've created a monster problem, but we're going to ignore it again in this budget. And I don't know how we look at you know, the public in the eyes and go, "Sorry, there's no money to pave your roads."

059Well, the I I agree with you 100%. You know me, I'm all about the roads and that's the thing, but I mean, if you can't afford it, you can't afford it. We also have another town's been doing a lot of work with with the funding from grants and and we do have that. We we have Winchester's pretty lucky. We we've been you know, following through. I've had a bunch of people email me asking if we're doing the low something stuff like that. And I'm I was like, "Absolutely. We're taking advantage of that." Most towns are. Uh my town alone, we we don't have much for to put in for paving, but we do use it just for paving. That's the one thing that I wanted to change this budget season, but that didn't happen. Um

060so we're just going to have to cross our fingers that a lot of people speed for a while and put some money in our pockets. Yeah, I don't know how many people are watching this tonight. I don't know if you have the count there, Todd, but and there's a handful of folks here in the room, but we're going to get a lot of public comment Monday night, I suspect on this budget. And I'm sure we are going to have an outpouring of folks to talk about the Board of Ed part of this budget. But I'd love to hear from people who might say to me, "You know what? I'd spend an X number of dollars more if you'd paved something." Because you know, we're going to kick this can down the road again for 30

061this will be year 32 of ignoring our roads and boy, they sure show it. It especially this year. We had a pretty brutal winter even though they said it was a bad It hurt everybody this year. My road got its its pothole patching today, which means there's loose gra- you know, loose tar everywhere and it looks like a it looks like the moon with all the filled in craters. Um I don't know. How do we ignore that again? Don't know. I have a question for you, Troy. That was super ten. I read an article a while ago that said 27 states I think it it stated like 29% of the rural communities are taking their outlier roads and converting them back to gravel because they just can't keep up with the pavement. Yeah. And it's

062way easier to maintain a dirt road than it is a paved road. >> It's less costly. Have you guys talked about that in Northford at all? Do you have dirt roads? >> What I did with my outskirt roads is I put millings down instead of paving them and then I chip seal them, my double chip seal them, which is like a not even a third of the cost of paving them. And it and it seems to last. The only thing with that is it's a it's a maintenance thing. You have to you have 5 years instead of 20 years of you know, a good asphalt job will last 20 years. A Correct. And that's what I read said that they chip seal them. >> It's easier to re- bring back that gravel road than it

063is pavement. I'm not saying we're we're taking all of Winchester back, but You have some outlier roads out there with three, four houses on them. We're at the point right now, Billy, that's the going to be the only thing we can do. Well, listen, I took a trip a while ago up to to Vermont to this little community and other than the main two roads coming through town, everything was But I also went by three graders and the roads were actually beautiful. There is a delicate balance between making sure our budget is as tight as we can make it and making necessary investments that have to get done. I mean, you know, you spoke about it at the last meeting. We do have to make investments from time to time and I don't know, man.

064It's another year of of doing nothing with roads. Unless it's time and Paul, you can chime in. Is it time to look at another bonding package and figure out how that fits into our budget? By the time the bond would get done and voted on, it'd probably be the the next year's budget, but um we've got to come up with a solution to make meaningful progress on our infrastructure. What's the status of the current bond that we have out? Is it My understanding from the presentation was it's not all used up. We've been taking a little at a time each time, correct? >> Correct. So there's another tranche of money that we're going to have to go out and borrow roughly $7 >> I'm going to that'll be part of your you'll have an update

065on the capitals for this month once I finish the report for March. I can give you the numbers, but I can't give you the status of all cuz that involves Mr. Rollins to go through and to determine, you know, where where the projects are at in terms of are they complete? Are they not complete? Or and how much more on some of the line items that we need to adjust the budget for potentially to finish roads that are in progress. So I will work on that so that you will have that. Cuz I just remembered his report. I mean, there was still funding still roads. >> we did the we did the eight and then we did Another eight. Yeah. Well, I'll go with the fire two, which is the fire truck. We did what?

06612 million? >> 11. 11 11 four. >> 11 five, would it be? I forget how much. >> So so and I think it's important to note too is you know, back in '22 when we went out and and we asked the town to go out and borrow, 22, 23 million dollars. It it wasn't just for paving roads. It fact, was an infrastructure bond package, which you know, everybody thought, "Wow, the town's got $22 million to pave roads." Well, there was only roughly 18 quote unquote road projects that were in that. It wasn't just to go out and randomly pave >> Right, it wasn't completely roads. Different roads around town, right? So, I I I think, you know, I've tried to relay that message out there and that, you know, we didn't get $22 million to

067just go pave roads. We got $22 million to buy a fire truck, to complete the school project, and to do infrastructure and paving on roads. We didn't go out and get $22 million to put in our bank account to just unleash paving crews around town. Um nor would I me, personally, recommend borrowing that kinds of money cuz you're never going to get $22 million worth of roads done in 1 year. It's nearly impossible. There's escalators that are going to happen in paving. They may go never de-escalate, but maybe one day. Um so, you never want to go out and say, "I want to go pave all these roads. This is the cost now." Because when you get to that road 3 years from now, that road may have gone up 50% price. >> Exactly. So,

068um listen, I heard what you had all said. We we had a great conversation with our intern, with our our director of public works. You saw Tom and I Amory spoke about it. Do we put the million dollars that Selectman Lemire wanted in the budget? I was afraid you guys were going to throw me out of the building if I proposed that, to be honest. You know, the numbers were >> [clears throat] >> we're getting up there. Realizing that we had to take, you know, an additional 400 plus thousand dollars in a debt service payment. The town obviously had an increased board you know, everything has an increase, you know. The way we live at home, we've taken an increase on everything. Businesses if they take an increase on on things that they're doing. Um

069it always sat in the back of our heads. Do we put the million dollars in? Um I opted not to put it in the proposal, but this is your budget. Want to see what a million dollars looks [clears throat] like? Tom's got the modifier. >> No, we know it. Just going to bump it by one. We know what that one does. >> No. Um Roughly 3%. And that And that would work That would be good because it a million dollars, if you could find one road in town that simply needed mill and paving, we could do a mile with that million dollars. Maybe. Maybe. Yeah. Yeah, the cost of asphalt's going up this year. And And Mr. Rowland showed you what was it? Uh $32 million to do X amount of roads. I I can

070go back to that presentation. >> showed us that one chart there where he did one road and it was what? $70 a yard? I think it was 70 yards and then and then the next one was 135 a yard. Yeah, you're dealing with the other >> So, before we Before we go down this week and start picking all the roads out, but let's try to keep it budget related. Um Potentially, then if we can't I don't think anybody's got the appetite for a million dollar increase here to put into this budget for roads. Although, I wish there was you know, I wish I was getting emails and letters from people saying, "Pave, pave, pave. I'm willing to spend more." That Those haven't shown up yet, those letters. Um but I think after this budget's done,

071Paul, we have to take a serious look at and I think the next bonding project that we look at it should be specific for paving projects, including the engineering and the drainage or whatever, but not I mean, that last bond was divided with a police you know, with a fire truck and other things that didn't show people meaningful progress on roads. And I think whatever we do moving uh forward and unfortunately, I'd love to put something in this, but I don't think we can. Um I just want to get something paved for these people. Paul, would you Could we do a smaller bond? Say Say we go up Paul's plan, we pick five roads that really need to be done, do a smaller bond that we can complete quicker? Yeah, I I I mean Pay

072in a bond to another bond for more roads. >> You can do whatever you wish. I mean, as you saw, we did a bond for we we got approval for $850,000 for Pearson Road. Right? So, you know, you're not subject to, you know, um dollar amounts. You do get more favorable rates as you as you borrow more. Um But you don't have to take the whole amount. >> You don't have to take the whole amount. So, we take what we need and not so we're not paying on that debt Right. You know, But keep in mind, you also have a bandwidth issue. So, you have a you have a bond a road bond project that is not complete yet. Right. To take on another new bond project May not start. >> have You don't have

073the public works staff to take on the the current projects are not completed. So, now you're going to take on new projects that I can't do. that we're not going to be able to fulfill cuz they're going to be that you won't be able to start and finish. Can we get a list of as you said, mill and pave only roads? >> We have that list. Uh by all means. And let me maybe stepping a little out of out of my lane here, but I I love this town so much. Let me put a more optimistic view on things. As your grand list grows, and we've shown that this year, you're going to be able to Yes, we were in a rut at least for the, you know, two budgets. Now, this is my third

074budget. I'm happy with this budget because the grand list actually went up. I don't have to stand up in front of a room full of people and say the grand list went down. As your grand list grows, as you're putting more assets out to your grand list, right? These projects do become easier. All right? So, you know, we're in this little bit of this pattern right now, but the pattern's changed cuz for two budgets prior to this one, I spoke about a grand list decrease. Happy to report there's grand list increase by almost $6 million. Huge, right? As we start in in in not in a so distant future, I just want to get this budget off the town meeting. I will be bringing you all in to talk about Wallingford. I did get the

075report back from So, that in that stepping out of lane in terms of the agenda item, but that is the grand list growth that I just talked about. That these projects will become easier as we grow the grand list. Can I ask a quick question and then Then I'll then I'll get off the road topic um cuz I think Amory made a great point, right? We have a bandwidth issue. Even if we threw some a million dollars in this budget, I'm not sure they'd be able to do anything with it. So, A million they could, but Well, cuz that's a league not the whole amount. Well, that said, between now and our next get-together, and I realize our next get-together is really focused on Board of Ed, so maybe it waits till a week from

076today, but I'd love to know if Jim got a million dollars in a paving budget, what would he do with it in the next 12 months? What would we see paved that he's got the bandwidth for that is a maybe it's a simple mill and pave and we can check a road or a mile of our 80 some odd miles of road off the list. We did We did ask him those questions when he was here during the presentation. We asked him, you know, about why they're taking a bit of a Right. It's all he can do. He can do this project and then we take more money and he does those projects. We did have that conversation. Yeah, we did. And I think I think bandwidth is definitely an issue with engineering, them involved

077one up, but strict mill [snorts] and pave roads, if we use [clears throat] strictly outside contractors, I mean, I think he made If he came back and said, "If I had a million dollars thrown into this budget, I could pave this. I could get this done in 12 months." I'd like to know that anyway, and then we have a we have a discussion with the public at that point. He doesn't have 12 months. He's got till what? September, October? >> Yeah. Well, he's got next spring, too, cuz this is >> can go out and pave in November, but I don't recommend it. Huh? No, he's got till November. >> we're talking about now ends next June. Yes. So, you're talking about whatever he could do from July until the end of the season and then

078next spring. It's worth a It's worth What would he do with a million dollars? So, I I know Mr. Rowland very very well. He will not give you one particular road. He will not pick that one or two roads. He will give you a list and say it's up to the selectmen to decide. So, if I if I may jump in, that list was requested. It is shown in the capital section here. Not that it gets you exactly to a million dollars, but there were a series of projects and I can't speak on the technical needs of each of these, but >> So, those are the peel and pave ones? >> Correct. >> How much money do you have in that in those estimates? So, he requested I think it's going to be a million.

079Just under a mill. It's like 960, I think. >> $821,000 worth of simply mill and paving or reclaiming to pave those stand-alone projects. Tom, go up to Old New Hartford Road. You're not including that one. No, we >> Oh, you were? Sorry. Yeah, he did. Okay. So, let's say to the I'll ask this question to the board. Let's say that we put a million dollars in, all of those roads could get done in the next 12 months. Let's assume he's got the bandwidth to do it. >> say that with confidence that that could be done. Okay, so let's assume he's got the bandwidth and the team to do it. What do we think about that? Just a slight correction, Selectman Marino. It wasn't a million. It was eight What you remember Tom Even Even better.

080I just wanted 821. Putting the town budget at over a mill. And then you got to deal with the with the We'll talk about Board of Ed Wednesday. Let's keep Let's Let's focus on the town thing right now. So, roughly, Tom, go to the mill rate sheet. Um what one mill equals. So, right now, one mill equals just over a million dollars. $1,010,778.89. >> So, if you add a roughly if you add 0.8 >> Add the 800-ton amount. >> Add 0.8 to that point, you're going to be you know, 1.3. Yeah. So, I can Let me give you an update on the bond. This was from October, um I believe that you received back in October. So, we have drawn to date $14 million in 2023, we drew 5 million, 150,000 for roads, 250 for

081drainage, 600 for sidewalks, and then 8 million in July now. The total amount that is allowed to be spent per the bond referendum is 23 million 300. Um so, if and some of these have to be some of these budgets have to be adjusted, which is why I'm saying we have to do an update of the project budgets. This was from October of '25. At that point in time, the project budgets through fiscal year '27, the total uh ask or the total projected budgets was going to be 22 million 381, which was going to leave us just about 918,000 of additional funds to be able to do uh to be able to do work. I am certain that that 918 is probably gone by now with cost increases. Um so, just that sort of gives

082you an idea of what you know, we had Amory, of the 23 million, how much have we actually withdrawn or put into She just told you. So, 50 uh 14 million is what we pulled in cash. So far. Yeah, that's what we've drawn. So, we're paying interest on the 14 million. Correct. Yes. So, we have a lot left. Plus the fire truck, plus 4.1 for Hinsdale, which is outside of the scope of obviously this. Um but Right. Just for roads, um 14 million. Now, if the budget I was just going to say, if if we were to ask everybody in town to raise the mill rate by about one for just pave those eight roads or however many it was, I would be concerned that then everybody would then expect the road in front of

083their house is paved, and those roads that he put up there Those roads [laughter] that were put up there don't serve all that many people. So, I mean, you're going to have a lot of mad people. Well, it's something we could all we can always decide which ones we want to pave, too. Well, we have to start with the easy ones, cuz we know what happens. And that's the only apparently the only roads in town that are mill and paved. Is that it? To your best of your recollection. So, going back, you you're you're um clicking a lot of boxes in my head right now. Going back to what the board had directed uh me to was come up with a million dollars in roads. The best we could come up with was that 820,000

084number, cuz that was were the only ones that we could mill and pave. I can confidently say, yes, those are the only cuz we couldn't even get to the million dollars that you requested. And none of them roads are the ones that are people are that are complaining about. I bet if you live on them, they probably do. Well, maybe, but the ones I'm hearing about ain't those. But the thing is, the road roads are so incredibly expensive. I think the only way to really approach it is through these bonds, and we're in one right now, because I mean, you know, people are complaining about 400,000 increase for like WPS, but like that's 4/10 of a road that's in fairly good condition to repave. Like, we're talking like totally different levels of money. I mean,

085it would be great to repave all the roads, but then we'd need what, 80 100 million dollars? So, I feel like it has to be it fit fitting it in a regular budget. I mean, the whole town's budget is only what, 43 million? I mean, What What really frustrates everybody, and and I don't know, Paula, as we move forward, and if we ever do a if we do a bond again, not ever, cuz we're going to have to if we're going to really make any meaningful change in roads, but if we do a bond again, we have to either communicate it differently, or we have to prepare differently, we have to, you know, fund some of the engineering up front so that we can because what I think what's really frustrating to people is that

086they hear 23 million dollars got spent, and nobody sees much. Right? Cuz I mean, we've made progress. I'm not saying I don't want I don't want Jim watching at home going, "Really, we haven't done much?" No, we've done quite a bit, but it's been When did that get passed? 20 22? Right, it's been 4 years, and we're not even halfway through the list of projects, maybe. It takes time. It takes a lot of time. And that's what we're going to add more employees, which then increases the budget is further. I think the the public though thought, "Look, we just voted for this bond, snap your fingers, we're going to see roads." So, I don't know. And you said you've looked at the way it was done. You you would do things differently the next time

087around. I you know, but Yeah, I'm a little nervous about setting projects up that could be 5 years out. Right. And I don't think anyone could predict the uh inflation that we've received over the last 5 years. Nobody could predict that inflation rate, which is why Amory was saying we're going to have to go in and, you know, start moving things around in terms of the budget wise, where some budgets have come in over, some under. The What happened since COVID, numbers just completely went crazy. Well, I think it's been an interesting discussion. We we've learned what a million dollars gets you, which it's roads that are less traveled, certainly. Um but I feel like we have to start somewhere, and whether we don't do this now, and we do something with a bond, I

088think whatever happens, Paul, after this budget's done, we should start looking into how do we fund once the other one's done, how do we get ready for the next one, and be and and deliver it hopefully faster than we did this time. So, for clarification, those debt the bond correct? Well, you you you bid the roads 5 years prior to them getting done, that that is not the price is not going to be the same. So, that's what's our That's what our problem is. We're not we're not able to complete. That's why you don't want to take out a big bond. If I if I was to do a bond again for roads, I would say, "Let's do small bonds. Let's do something that we can complete within a year or two, and then go

089forward." Because you can't push it out. You get a better rate with a larger bond if they're bigger. So, we're going down a a little financial thing, and and we speak about this often. You can you can, you know, want to mess with things. You can ban things in in in the in the interim, and get up to 20 million dollars, 15 million dollars, and then go out and bond it, so then you're paying less interest and premium when you first start these projects, and then wait till you get to 15 to 20 million dollars. There's a lot of different, you know, uh avenues we can go down. We'll present anything you want. I just caution, we went out and borrowed 8 million dollars over the summer, um and you're seeing the direct impact of

090400 and some odd thousand dollars of the of that debt service going up, okay? But I am a strong believer, right, wrong, or indifferent, that you're going to drive on these roads for 20, 30, 40, 50 years, you should pay for them over 20 or 30 years, not over 10 years. I was taught that very early on in my board of finance days. Some people agree with that methodology, some people absolutely dislike that methodology, but I I agree. I still think we need to take smaller bites though, because we don't know what's going to happen next year, the year after, the year after. And it doesn't take them that long. I watched them do Wani Road, right next to my house. When those contractors actually went in, that that road was done. It was gone.

091They did the drainage, they paved it, capped it. It was done. You also have to factor in the fact that every bond referendum has to go to the public. There's a cost to every time you go out for to a public vote. There is a cost of my time, Tom's time, my staff's time, every time we go out to bond, every time we have to have a ratings review, every time we have to do an official statement for a new bond issuance. There is a significant amount of work behind the scenes that has to take place. So, there are towns that do go out to bond every single year. Not necessarily roads, but for capital projects, there are towns that bond almost every single year. Um but there's there is additional. There's issuance costs, there's

092cost of your of your bond advisor, there's cost of legal counsel. So, there's other costs that are factored in there that you somewhere you have to find that balance of not too much that you can get it done, but not too little that's going to cost the town additional money, and cost us additional time. But you But you get a better rate with a larger bond, number one. So, and you also and you don't have to take all the money at once. You take it. We know we're going to do these projects this year, so let's take that money for there. And that that's the way to do it, because you're saving some money, you're saving all the work and effort that you do it. You only You only start paying back when you draw

093When you draw, right. So, you draw down. And that's what they're doing on this bond. Right. Right. That's the way to do it. And I'm going to take the opportunity There there seems to be a a going around that the town went out and we borrowed the full $23 million back in '22 and we're paying interest on it. That's absolutely not the case. Case proven, just this summer we went out and borrowed $8 million. There's still more money to borrow. So, we're not paying interest on money that's just sitting in our bank account. There's also a limit to what we can bond to because of our grand capital reserve, right? >> a limit there's a limit that they will allow you to just draw if if you are not going to utilize the funds over

094you know a period of time, like less than 2 years. You know, they won't If you said, "I want to go out and bond the full $23 million, but we're going to use it over the next 5 years." They won't They'll say no, yeah. I got you. They won't allow that. What's the how long can you let it sit without drawing on it? About 2 years probably. About 2 years is about the limit. They want to see Well, we've we've well surpassed the 2 years since that. We have a bond of >> the funds that we've >> We we got authorization. Oh, I see. We haven't borrowed the money. Oh, that's what we've got, but But, I still think like so so this full bond package the original list we had, we're going to be

095able to complete that original list with the funds we have left? >> I mean Because of the cost We say 2022? Because of the cost escalations. I know you know the the initial So, I came on right when this was going to the public show that of information. So, when Bruce was still here, Bruce did most of the work of putting it together with Jim. So, they have a list of potential roads of what they wanted to get done. Obviously, that has that has changed because of the cost escalation post COVID of what can and cannot be done and that's why I said the person to speak to on that subject is your public works director. We did ask him that question when he came here if you remember correctly and he told us that

096we are not going to be able to finish because there is not enough money for escalation at that time. What what is the balance left that we can the full balance we can draw up for roads? What was Actually, let me I'm going to I'm going to defer on Let me let me do March's totals just to see where we're at that and if I don't know that Jim is going to be able to get to between now and say you know Monday if um to get the analysis done of where everything is at, but I can certainly give you you know where we think it's probably going to go and what he needs for additional budgets in terms of Yeah, no I I meant just what do we have left to borrow out of

097the bond? >> Oh. What was it eight? Eight what? Well, you've also got you've also got some projects in there that were partially grant funded, so Initially, it was 23 three in total and we've drawn we've drawn 14. But, there were grants that were supposed to come back on that. So, the the plan was initially to draw, if you remember, 18 million, I believe, was going to be the draw for was going to be the net amount for roads net of grant money. So, Tom, that money or those numbers up there include that 800,000? So, this is with the 821,000 as Jim laid out is capital So, can can you add the board of education back to that so we can see what it would be? I don't know I don't want to get sick.

098It still should be lower than it was before. No, we went up. That was fine then. Well, lower than >> [laughter] >> I know I know what the mayor was saying. It is lower than what it was before we made changes. You're at You're at When you add $820,000 in a budget, the number's going to go up, but it went up less than if we didn't make any changes. All right, guys. I want you to put your heads together. I want to cut another half a mil off of that town side. Come on, what have we got? Well, first of all, it doesn't Does anybody here have an appetite to add that 800,000 for those particular roads? >> I've For those roads? Yes. Wholeheartedly. The The reality is though, if we want to do roads,

099we're going to have to raise taxes. We are raising taxes. But, I'm going to try to slim it down a little bit. >> Well, that that's going to be a question that ultimately goes out to the public and we're going to say, "Do Do you want this in including roads? Here's your number." I mean, it's it's we're going to propose them and bottom line they're going to show up and vote and they either vote yes or they vote no. It's pretty simple. I think we need to answer from public works director first as to whether he can do those roads. >> Well, those those roads Those roads today 120, that's just a simple mill and pave. He can do that in the next year. Bring in a contractor. That was the the the ask from

100the board of we want a million dollars roads. We struggled to try and get that done. >> shovel ready easy jobs and that's what those are. Those are no catch basins none of that work. Simple mill and pave. Yep. And and you'll see it as in a capital request as mill and pave. And somebody said and you're and you're correct cuz you agreed with it. We can spend this 821 and we're going to get these roads done. We're still going to get beat up because we didn't do the eight roads they wanted done in front of their house. Guaranteed. Yeah, there's no way, but you have to start somewhere. Oh, you're right. Well, that's That's probably I don't know how many miles of road that is, but that's probably four or five miles of road

101that'll help bring the number down that are bad. I don't think it's that much, is it? I don't even want to take a guess at that. I don't even want to take a guess at that one. Well, one one side note, isn't uh Eversource or somebody paving the the main road this spring? They they are they are going to pave where they cut up and then they're going to tear up. Oh, I thought they were. >> That's the exception, but yeah. But, they are yes. Oh, they were are going to pave now? They're not going to wait till they tear that up and then pave the whole thing at once? Nope. Unfortunately. That was discussed at um last week's uh Eversource meeting. Yep. And we're at the state's mercy on that. I I know. It's

102okay though, Bill. It's not going to be a problem. The break's going to It's I'd rather have it smooth out there, know that we've gotten them the restoration. We've gotten them the degree to go, you know, curb to curb. Curb to curb on one side? Wherever they you know cut. On the other side, the Riverside, they didn't do much damage, but if there is any damage, don't worry, I'll be out there making sure they mill and pave that side as well. So, to get it get things done right, you don't always see what's happening and I as far as I understand with the bonds and all the work that's being done now, it's being done very well, right? With all of the infrastructure and all the things that people don't immediately see so that it

103lasts for a very long time and will save us money in the future. So, I mean, I understand everybody wants the road in front of their house paved right now, but um you know, if if we just keep people informed about what you know, we are moving forward. We Nobody wants high taxes, you know. We don't have We have a good start on a you know, grand list increase, but we need more revenue and we're heading in the right direction. So, you know, in the next few years maybe things will be totally different and we can very easily throw in a couple million dollars for roads without you know raising the mill rate, but I mean we're doing what we can do and we're we are moving forward. I remember asking Jim Rollins when he

104was here, "Are we actually moving forward or are things deteriorating?" And he said unequivocally, "We are moving forward." >> Anytime you're doing anything, you're moving forward. Well, I asked him if it's like the rate of deterioration is you know, are we you know what I mean? Oh, I don't know about that. We're moving forward. >> [laughter] >> So, this calculation that's on the screen [snorts] with the mill rate going to 32.55, that's with the 800 or without the 800? I'm sorry, one more question. But, that's not going to be your number. So, let's say the board of ed number stayed as at what it is right now. We have not now factored in the 3246 motor vehicle cap, which is now going to drive your mill rate up even higher because we are capped at

1053246 for motor vehicle. Oh, so we lose money on that end. You lose money because you can't charge >> have to make it up for on the real estate and the property. Do you have Do you have the a calculation there that tells us what >> Yeah, I can't do that off on the fly. Come on. Sorry. I mean, can you give me Give me some nice round numbers here? Are we talking $100,000, $200,000? >> Well, I mean, right now it's you're very close. So, you're you're not that much higher. Just assume you're you're 3255, what's your what's your motor vehicle Thomas, is that up top? 3246. >> it's Oh. Grand list motor vehicle >> in there, but we don't have it in there anymore. So, All right, well, we we can't put you on

106the spot. That's hard. Because we've not been we've not had the motor vehicle cap in a while. Yeah. So, we have to factor it in. So, you have to back out you have to back out your motor vehicle your anticipated motor vehicle revenue at and then you factor your mill rate your remaining mill rate on the residual real estate and personal property. And you for the residual revenue that you have to make up for. So, it takes a little bit of It's not hard to do. It's just you have to build it into your formulas and I don't want to do it on the fly and give you the wrong number, but just assume it's going to be higher than 3255 for Yeah, as long as we're under 3246, that's not going to change then.

107They don't have to do that calculation under 32. Correct. That's what I'm just checking. So, we managed to raise Yeah, we raised it instead of cutting. You can take that million dollars back or that 800 something back out of that budget. Which is sad. I I I understand the frustration, but we just can't afford that right now. And I'm glad I live on a state road. >> [laughter] >> So, what's the board's pleasure? Go back to what it was before we put that back in. Unfortunately. We still got We still got two more workshops, so. I think it's important for us to demonstrate, as I said last meeting, that we want to invest in our town. And we can give the you know the community that option whether they want to approve the budget or

108not. And obviously we want it to be approved on the first run and not have to go through process of another expense uh you know and effort of a second referendum, but people want to see some progress on the roads. That's their That's their choice. This is that They're the voters. Um you know this is you know not a lot, but it you know does add. So, I'm I'm not opposed to keep keeping that 800 in because it is, as like when Marina pointed out, top three are what they asked for our community. I'm not comfortable leaving it in right now. I'd take it out or I personally I'd take it out now. Let's see what happens Wednesday and that's out of the budget and we have one more meeting after that. >> move it

109down and see what happens. Oh, you have until, you know, at least Monday. Yeah, and and and and anything that you set tonight can be changed. That nothing's finalized until somebody makes the motion to set the budget to go to town meeting. You could leave the 800 in and we know it's there. We can always pull it if we can't get to a number we're comfortable with. It's one of the things we have in our our deck of cards that we can take out, so. Cuz so as it stands now, this is with the 800 This is the 800s out right now. >> this is taking out the 821 for the roads. >> Right. That does not include >> Well, with the school increase. With the school increase. So, we're at We're at 2.57 mil

110rate increase. 8.8%. So, the um when you had the 800 in there, um we were at 32.56, I believe. >> 32.55. >> 55. Yeah. Can you tell us what that is um without the Board of Ed for a second? Just so we can see the town by itself. 305 30.51 with the mil rate. >> Yeah. I want to show this mil increase. >> [laughter] >> You get a $23 million increase. We do a lot of roads. >> pave your roads there. It's not going to get the money from them. I'll be moving. So, without That's without the Board of Ed. It's a 1.3. >> Board of Ed increase and with the 821. >> Got you. Got you. Got you. Got you. And it's uh 30.51. 30.51, correct. In the mil rate, that's the increase, but

111the expenditure increase is not 4.61. So, now I'm going to ask another question. >> in total. So, the motor vehicle's capped higher than our mil rate, is that going to add revenue to us? No, we can't we can't charge two different rates. So, if our rate is lower, we cannot charge So, the So, the motor vehicle be our >> If our rate is higher, we are capped at 32.46. >> Got you. And when you raise the mil rate in your calculations, you are capturing the additional automotive or vehicle revenue, correct? So, when we put in If you had a 32.46 mil rate in that number, we're capturing the maximum motor vehicle revenue at 32.46, yes. It doesn't change anything. >> Adjusted for collection rates. Right, because when you when you raise the mil, you're raising

112it across the board on everything. >> Right. That's right. Yeah. You go 1/10 above 32.46, then we got to break out a new formula. Yes, then we'll trigger next year we will get state aid for our our revenue loss because of the motor vehicle cap. So, it's a year behind. So, once you hit that cap, that triggers assistance from the state of Connecticut, but on in one year. So, for the just That's being said, I still don't want to hit that one. >> No, I'm just letting you know that that you know So, if our mil rate was 33.46, we were one point above the cap, they're going to send us the revenue difference for that one point. >> There's a There's a formula There's a formula. It's not dollar for dollar. There's a formula,

113but it is based on the prior year for the prior tax year, prior year actually. Don't count your chickens with the state giving you the money. No, they send you a decent amount of money cuz there are towns that are getting, you know, a hefty sum of money. The problem is, you know, at some point that may go away. That help may go away. It'd be dorky relying on Right. Dorky's mil rate is 50. >> if they just ever decided at the state level to take away that assistance, that would create, you know, massive holes in some of these towns that are far towns that are far above the cap Big cities. Big cities whose mil rates are in the 50s, 60s, 70s. Down the road if the state starts weathering some bad storms and

114the money isn't as free. And that's what we don't want. Don't want to create that hole. Even the small towns, you know. So, my recommendation, whatever the board decides, because we do want to put out a selectmen proposed budget tomorrow morning, keeping people informed. We If you take no action on the roads, we don't need any. If there's an appetite to put $820,000 in, we would need a motion to show that in the selectmen's proposed budget. We can talk about it. We can look at it, you know, and we see what the numbers do. >> out if you We could always take it back out. This is not final, but I think So, I make a motion to put that those funds, that 800 and whatever the figure is Tom, what was the full number?

1158 That's correct. 820 What was the There's a motion. 821, yes. into the budget, you know, knowing we can take it out later, but for purposes of showing the public what it would be if we do some investment in the roads, which we're asking for. >> In your motion, Cheryl, should we list the roads that are in that list? I think so. So, that way the public knows to do these roads. I'll amend my motion accordingly. And I'll second that. Let her finish it first, Troy. I thought she was done. I can't I can't read all of this. >> So, I for uh for for helping with the motion, it is going to be Old New Hartford Road reclaim and pave, intersection 8 Friends, Ledge Drive peel and pave, Winchester Avenue peel and pave, Gaylords

116Road reclaim and pave, Orchard Street mill and pave, and Cornelio Ave mill and pave for a total of $821,000. So, I'm assuming that those aren't full roads. Are those full roads? We'd have to ask Jim that question. I can get that answer, but I'm assuming Because those numbers are very low for mill and pave for full roads. >> In the back of your books, there's the individual project sheets. He might have a better description of the logistics and the technical work that goes into each of these. Troy, is there a difference between peel and pave, reclaim and pave, and mill and pave? >> pave is they peel it with an excavator and pave pave it two and two because it's you need a 4 in. Um a mill and pave is a 2 in mill,

1172 in pave. There's not that level of detail in those. What about uh What's So, what's a reclaim is reclaim the same as mill? >> That's 4 in. That goes right down to subgrade. All right. So, those are different Those jobs are different degrees of what they're doing. But the reclaim, like all right, say Cornelio Avenue mill and pave. If you're going to mill Cornelio Avenue, it's going to I don't know how long Cornelio Avenue is. I'm not even aware of that street, but um and I lived here my whole life. But uh $30,000 um it can't be that long. I'll tell you that right now. It's not. Right? It's not. It's off Danbury Quarter Road. It's Yes. What, then [clears throat] a little cul-de-sac type of thing? Yep. All right. So, I I If

118you could just ask him if the $800,000 projects are full length road paving mills. We can do that. That would be helpful. Okay, we have a motion. Do we have a second? I second that. Any other discussion? But Cornelio Road is 800 ft from here. It's close. Or no, that's Avenue. I'm sorry. I take that back. It's right around the corner here. Where is it? I thought it was off Danbury Quarter. Yeah. It's um It's a Yeah, it's got like It looks like >> by If it's between the buildings and the ball fields. Oh, no wonder why. Yeah, that's sure. Yeah, it's between the intersection right before ABC Pizza. >> Yeah, okay. Yep. I know where it is now. All right. We have a motion. Do we have a second? All in favor? Opposed? 4-3.

119821 is left in the budget for now. Tom, you got that? Bring them over. So, I have a question. Seems like there's a lot, you know, going to be discussed on Wednesday with the education budget. And unfortunately, we're not going to have a Gilbert representative here to answer some questions. Would it be possible for you to reach out to Gilbert and ask whether they would consider reducing their ask to the town to the Board of Ed? Cuz as I recall from the meetings I observed, you know, while the members of the Board of Ed for WPS asked sent several suggestions to um the superintendent to reduce their ask in those scenarios and ultimately reduced it by 500,000 that the OE asked for the WPS section. That [clears throat] was not done with by the Gilbert

120board. The Gilbert board did not ask their head for any reductions. Um or any scenarios of what we reductions could look like. So, I just think that if we could get that information so we could consider it, maybe they are willing to do it and that would be very significant um in our efforts to try to get through this process. Is you know, can you ask them, Tom? I I can definitely and and just if if the board can direct me, um I believe I I do want to ask two people. I can ask the head of schools, but I should also be asking the chair Yes. of Gilbert as well. Um now Obviously. >> If if I don't want to do anything that, you know, you guys aren't instructing me to, but it would

121be my recommendation that I I email the the chair and also the head of schools if there's any possible reduction. And I'm assuming you you all want that by Wednesday? >> Yeah. >> But Monday the absolute latest cuz we got to put the bow on this thing by Monday, you Yeah, and that would be helpful. Unfortunately, we can't schedule work with their schedule, but it would be nice to have that information. I'll second what Cheryl said if you need an extra I think we have a general consensus. I don't You guys can direct me. Yeah, I I I got my marching orders. I believe it does have to go to the chairman cuz they're the ones that will I eventually will cut it cuz I remember last year when I asked uh And that's that's

122this this is all on their side, correct? I mean, we're we're not we're not doing this Wednesday with the Board of Ed. We're not going through line items. I mean, we're giving them a number, right? Well, we can go through line items. >> We actually can't. We can't cut it. Well, we can talk to them about cuts how much they're going to be involved in cutting this percentage. They can tell us where they would be taking those cuts. Just Well, yeah, but that's all up to the Board of Education, Ultimately, yes. You just give them a number. You're getting this much. >> We can't provide any Actually, when they cut the 500,000, I remember the chairman saying that's up to the superintendent to make that 500,000 cuz they didn't even cut it any line items

123themselves. They just cut the overall. It is disappointing that there is no representation coming here Wednesday from Gilbert. Very disappointing. How can we Maybe the chair would Holly be able to come? The chair? Maybe just to have her. >> come. In the past has come to a lot of the budget meetings. >> Yeah, no, I know she has. Yeah. But anytime we've gone through a budget process and Gilbert has made a concession, it's been the head of schools that's done it. I mean, I don't think that the chair has any Well, I their process as I understand with Gilbert, you know, they they really rely on and just accept what their um head represents in those things as to what they can and cannot do and it's not not like what we did with the

124BOE who will say, "Okay, now, you need to find this cut." That's it's the reverse, which is why there weren't those kind of asks done at their budget meeting this year about what can you do to reduce it. Um you know, cuz you know, they do have, you know, some funds that they can contribute. They have a $2.3 million you know, investment account. Just the corp does. And where'd that money come from? So, I mean, they they can do. I know they did take some of those some funds to reduce their ask already. They took 250,000 of their money the uh and to reduce the ask, but that's not adequate, you know. You know, they're using fund sources you know, that probably are leftover tuition that we've paid over the years. Do we have anything

125else from the town side? So, I I just so so I'm sorry. Um I have my ask I'm asking um head of schools um and the chairman um for any additional reductions and also if the chairperson could come to Wednesday's That would be very helpful. I don't need a motion, but I just I'm looking for head nods and it seems like I'm getting head nods. >> nods. You're getting head nods. Paul, you know, I know you you did a super job with this budget. You've cut it down to the bare bones as you possibly can with the help of Anne Marie and Tom. >> That's Tom. Um but I'm I'm going to ask you one last time, is there any other hidden things that we can save a little dough on? I think I said

126this at last week's meeting, even though we turned over the budget to you on on March 13th, our offices have constantly you saw changes. And what that was is us going back not a second time, not a third time, not a fourth time, but many times going back and just seeing if we could get any more um any additional reduction is loss of staff, loss of services, um light bulbs being unscrewed in particular offices. I I can confidently and we can look at the finance off confidently say that our number is what you're seeing and and I have There's always something to to to give cuz you can give, right? You can say, "Well, you know, let's turn every other light bulb off." Well, okay, you have that, but right now the budget that you're

127seeing that's up there, all of the numbers baked in, you know, we we we've taken a cut in the deputy chief. Um yes, we're going to fund, you know, through a capital item, you know, to to try and get accredited, which is great, but I sit here confidently in front of all of you tonight and our public to say um any additional reduction is with services, [clears throat] you know. Hey, Paul, and before everybody throws darts at me, I'll ask this question and then duck. What if we went uh to a four-day week? Particularly the Friday where you're only open till noon anyway, what what would the savings be if we eliminated the Friday opening? We've looked at that previously and there was very little savings on that. So, there's just just two I want

128to be careful what I say. Um Are you looking at reducing the work week? Are you looking at reducing the electricity cost of opening five days a week? >> I would entertain that question both ways. Okay, so one I'll comment on and the other one I won't. Um just cuz I don't want to I don't want to go you know, somewhere I don't really want to go publicly, but you know, the savings cost it's you're here four hours. What kind of energy, you know, we're very green energy saving with our, you know, bulbs and everything like that. You're not You're not going to see significant savings. I will comment though if you are looking to change everybody's work week from 35-hour work week to a 31, we're going to have a hard time keeping staff.

129At the end of the day. You have contracts. Um you'd have an almost impossible time keeping, you know, your certified your employee your certified employees. Uh I think it would open up a a litany of things and again, I think you see the number the towns, you know, at What is it? 200? What's the town at town? Well, they own it. Well, there's the debt service, but Paul, I think the town go crazy over that too because there was some mention of that on the the new news social media site um the other day about somebody stopped in town hall and one or two departments were off for vacation and they had, you know, family people No, it was a Thursday and um there are contractual uh items that have a closing on the capital

130It was just a question. Particularly the four hours on Friday really You know, I can't I don't know how busy it is here on a Friday, but people that work aren't getting here by closing time, so you know, if it's a very Uh so, it's the the expenditure increase that just on the town side excluding debt service, correct? Is 1.6 maybe? Hang on. It's 172 14. 3.4%. Yeah, 172 172 14. So, how do we even approach it on Wednesday when I mean, the largest part uh I mean, you mentioned the education budget is a has a stranglehold on us and, you know, how do we even approach it when the largest part of the budget we can't even comment on like how does that process look like? We have to address it. >> We have

131to come up with a number. Just they're not here too. Right. We have to come up with a number that we feel that we can bring to the public to the referendum. But we can't change the Gilbert number. No, we can't. And that's the biggest part. I mean, last year there wasn't a lot of talk about the Gilbert side because their increase wasn't as big as WPS, but it's totally reversed this time. So, how do we approach that? How do we >> So, you got a $2,080,000 increase. They're 900,000, right? Gilbert was cut by Uh their there's this, but then the WPS side was and it was cut by 500,000 already. It was like 818,000 this year. All right, so you got two you got it. They're asking let's round numbers. They're asking for a

132$2,000,000 increase. 900,000 WPS's 400 and For reference, these numbers go off of the town manager proposes. They're not No. >> as of today, but >> Yeah, you can't you can't You can't look at the out of district cuz they we can't do anything with the out of district. But it's all part of the expense. Oh, I understand that, but we can't do anything with the out of district. So, the Winchester public And if we try to do too much with and we'll get into this Wednesday, I guess. You try to do too much with the WPS budget, which increases, you know, half, almost half of what the Gilbert's increase is. And keep in mind, the town, but Board of Ed is dealing with pre-K to 23. You know, all the special ed in and out

133of district, all the bussing, you know, for all the kids, not just, you know, first, second, third, fourth, fifth grade. that's that's something we really got to factor in. So, there's a lot more kids that are being funded through the WPS portion of the um BOE budget than the Gilbert schools do. They got like 400 kids. Um so, they're only like that. It's It's a It's a tough situation. You know, so if if you try to cut the WPS budget, you're going to decimate the elementary school, because we still have to do all the special ed. And so, then we're going to be producing kids that are not as well educated and not succeed being successful. And we're It's It's just I mean, you know, we'll talk about it Wednesday, but >> What is the

134out of district number? I can't see it. >> That's the 780. 792. 794. And the the only way to get that number down is to invest in the in the program in the school itself. >> To bring it in house. >> To try to get it in house, which is a lot cheaper. But one kid can raise that number by $300,000 just for transportation. One kid coming in district. It It The costs are really hard. There may be ways we can adjust that item. I'm not sure, but the one that we cannot touch is is the Gilbert one, and that's the largest part, and that's that's why I feel a little cut off at the knees. I'm not sure. I mean, But they're here and they're not doing anything. At the knees, we have to

135go to their mercy. Yeah. All right. So, anything else on the town side? We got to go back now and then because we got to I want to get a proposed budget up online. Well, we got to go back and now build in the motor vehicle cap in that number. So, do you want to wait and put that online, or do you want to do it on Wednesday after there's a decision on Wednesday? Cuz is it worth And we can put the formula in because we we will potentially need it if the Board of Ed number stays the same. They need to know what that number is going forward for to put that out on Monday. So, we can build it in. So, do you want to put it online? I mean, does This this

136this budget to put online, honestly, is so far from being done. That's going to make people freak out. >> Yeah, you're putting up a 12% increase there? No, no, no, no, no, no. >> Basically, this is what you're proposing on putting online tomorrow? Yeah. Whoa. I'm not proposing that. Well, I I I didn't say I I I I think you should put the motions we made. This is what you want to post tomorrow. Yeah, because it doesn't belong in the past. We put up after the first workshop, we've done a Board of Selectmen >> in progress Yeah, you can't put that up. This is so much If you do put this up, post that it's still a work in progress. >> they should know what it is. I would You put that up, you're going

137Cuz they can't see this. They can't see this from home. That's not something they can read. So, we should be, you know, making sure we're being >> early to put this up cuz we're so far from being finished. To panic people with this number doesn't make sense to me. I don't either. Well, I think we should be very clear and transparent that this is something that we're thinking we we we want we want the public's input on. We can't get their input if they don't see it. >> But we haven't talked about >> I'm going to have to take my phone off the wall because if you post that, my phone's going to not stop all freaking day long while I'm trying to work. I know. Yeah, there's a lot of people who read our

138our our I'm going to have to I'm A lot of people read our How about content though? >> a little open a little compliment though? We just put the town side up and then put the BOE side up. I know it's not the entire budget. I'm in a difficult position cuz it It's all >> That's the budget. It I I you know, everyone's Guys, we're we're Yeah, but we don't always post real time updates. Like after every meeting, we're not always posted a new budget. And this is not I mean, this is 20% done. This is not even close to being a reality. It says, "For budget information, refer to last night's It doesn't matter. You could put a big draft across the front of it, and people will still >> Yeah, I wouldn't put

139this up yet cuz we're not We haven't discussed half of it yet. You know, we get Wednesday night, we've come to some kind of resolution there, then okay, we're we're close enough to putting something up. But this would just scare the hell out of everybody. Scared the hell out of me. We need to be transparent. So, that's my position. I think people can't see these figures, so they don't know what we're talking about. So, with so many numbers, and so even watching the the recording of the meeting, it's going to be very hard for them to get a grasp. I think having the document up there is more is more transparent and appropriate for community. I don't agree, Cheryl, because it's not reality yet. It's not It's a draft. If we were But it's not

140even a draft. It's just the first go around talking about the town side, and not even talking about the Board of Ed side. It's not hardly a draft. It's the very first scribble notes you put on a pad when you're trying to think about something. That's how far this is away from being a budget. >> I understand, and that's what we tell people. This is >> You can tell it. You know what to Listen, I I disagree. I don't think it it's even close for It's not ready for prime time yet. Didn't we make a motion to add that 800 and some thousand in to show the public? Yeah, so the public would see what it is. So, why are we now going to refuse to publicize it appropriately? I think it's more for us

141to see what it is. >> Exactly. No, we we specifically talked about seeing it so the public can see what that impact of doing those the roads would be. That's specifically what I said. We did say that. Oh, that's Yeah, I've spoken my >> to I would say if you're going to post it, you need to put a preface at the beginning of it that states >> Yeah. the changes that have been made are not decided. >> line items that have been changed, and maybe, you know, that this is a this is a working draft, that there's an additional meeting on Wednesday where and that this is not Obviously, this is not I would put this is adding $800,000 in paving. And this is what it looks like. >> That's what I mean. Yeah. Put

142a quick summary of all the line items that have changed, >> Yeah. including the line items that you added to the capitals. Um Cuz I think our motion the summary of changes. Our motion was uh roads. It was we were supposed to be put out. >> put a watermark on every page that says working copy. And I'm shutting my phone off. I'm not turning it on. We do. I'm sure someone has already screenshotted this meeting and put it on Facebook. It's probably already on. Yeah, it's probably already on. [laughter] Well, I can't This doesn't get broadcast, so can't screenshot it. That's why I think it's important to post it. Hey, we're saving money just on our TVs. All right, you want a motion to adjourn, Todd? Well, uh as I All right, I I I

143think uh the Board I I have the general consensus we're going to watermark it. We're going to put up a little explanation. We have, obviously, now what seems to be at the motor vehicle cap. We've got it. So, give us a little bit of time tomorrow cuz we got to factor in some new formulas. Um but we'll get something in. If you all dislike it, you know, I have thick skin. Yeah, and and it gives us the opportunity to say, you know, this is why we probably can't do roads more from roads down the road. So, we're we're tending to it. We're showing them what the impact would be. Uh maybe, and it could start the discussion. Anything else you wish to have prepared for Wednesday night? I know we're going to concentrate a little

144bit more on the Board of Ed side, but the agenda, as you see, is very just budget workshop, so we can go anywhere. Is there anything else you'd like to see from our office? I know Second Selectman asked if the if the town side had anything. I'll pick up the carpet and see if I can find a couple of pennies underneath it. If it is, I'll come with it, but Is there anything else? That's fine. When you put this up, maybe rely relate to the public so we're transparent that Wednesday's meeting is also a workshop. It is not a meeting. Yeah, those agendas are out. Yeah. No no no public comment uh on Wednesday, either. Okay. The public comment will be on Monday before we approve and send it to the budget to town meeting.

145Motion to adjourn. Is there a second? Second. All in favor. Any opposed? Good night, everybody. Thanks, Tom and Amara. Wednesday at 7:00. Thank you, Paul. Yeah, what's your call? Oh, yeah, Tom's got it down week. >> Mhm.