001I was going to take that 7 o' July 28th. plan meeting. Uh, roll call starting from the right. >> Charlene Loy, alternate. >> Adam Quagaroli, city. >> John Coney, secretary. >> Willard Platt, chairman. >> Peter Marshian, >> Christa, >> Scott Eisen, Matt Smith, alternate. Okay. Under agenda review, I want to move 6B up under 4A. I'll make a motion to do that. >> I'll second it. >> All in favor? >> Okay. Is there any other agenda reviews? Anybody wants? >> Uh just a few quick notes. Uh you'll see we have a new member with us tonight. Matt Smith has been sworn in. He is on the commission. Uh welcome Matt. >> Thank you. Uh, also Lauren is going to be taking minutes remotely. Uh, so we've already verified she's got a good connection. We're good
002to go with that. Uh, and then just lastly, uh, we omitted, uh, or we should be adding old business number 6C, which pertains to PCC application 25-12. It does show under public hearings, uh, but just an error. It didn't make it on. >> Okay. Uh any public comment from anybody other than than the applicants? No. Okay. So, we're going to move on to PZ25-13. And at this time, I'm going to recuse myself and leave Peter in charge. And uh sit Charlene in my place. >> You can step up and >> tell us what your project is. I know you were here last meeting. >> Two weeks. Yes. All right. Thank you. We did get your photographs that you >> good. Oh, we got >> got those more of them. >> Jim and Lynn Brandolini per
003truck 272 per truck trail. Uh we're here asking for a special permit for a fence. Uh we've read the regulations thoroughly in the way we interpret them. We've followed them as pretty much exactly. The fence is over 2 ft from the property line and transitions from 6 to 4 on the south side, 20 ft from the water. Uh fence is black vinyl with open slots on the same side. The fence sits below our yard. Um so if you when you're looking at the survey, the fence is 3 to four feet below our yard, hidden in the woods. It doesn't affect anyone's view or sunset because of its location in the woods. It's at lake level. Our yard is not lake level. Uh our backyard's good. Like I said, at least three four feet higher. And
004you'll notice that right on the survey. It's pretty clearly marked the elevations. So, if you look on the south side of the property, um the fence is marked and you can see the difference in elevation between our yard and the lake line. I think that's pretty clear, right? You got 887 and it's 883 down by the water south side. neighbor being of a porta on that side. On the on the north side, uh it's a 4ft fence. Um we planted a whole bunch of uh perennials on her side of the fence, kind of make it look nice. We put some mulch over there. The fence protects our pet, our 13 grandchildren, one of which is a 5-year-old autistic little boy who happens to stray. It hides a incredibly unsightly chicken wire fence that's been up
005for over four years that they've clearly devalued our property. So, we're tired of looking at it. Along with hiding a lot of unsightly debris, there's what appear to be four abandoned propane tanks. There's an abandoned jet ski and a lift in the backyard, piles of canoes, rowboats haven't been used for five years, and we're really hoping it was going to stop the dog from seeing us, but unfortunately that didn't work. So, um, that's our private defense is up as you probably already are aware. Uh, Matt has looked at it. So, Jeff and Jeremy. Um, any questions? We have pictures of from like a lot of different angles. So, if you're not sure what picture goes where, just fire away. >> Full disclosure, we did not include all of the pictures that you provided. Just a
006few >> the important ones which are very nice. >> Very >> Yeah, we kept Walgreens busy. I think >> any of the members have any questions, >> Adam? >> I was hoping to get a view from your neighbors >> towards your fence. >> We have >> Yeah, because that that's where the line of sight could be obstructed to the Highland Lake. >> I got my kayak and took them. >> Yeah, >> the one it was definitely in that >> I'm sure it was. the other side. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> This is their yard. >> Which one? >> This is your yard. >> This is your >> yard. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's what I did. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> So, we don't have one from the other side. >> Well, there were a ton of
007gra I did walk down there. >> Oh. >> And I have seen that view. >> Okay. And it's you have a nice wood lot. >> Yeah. You can't really see the fence from the lake. >> Um and the fence does extend almost down to the lake, right? So on on that neighbor's side, >> you were talking the south side. >> Uh your northern side >> northern neighbor >> view if they're looking to the left, you know, look at the lake to the left, >> you'll see your fence, but you see a wooded area, which is like you said, >> correct. All I was going to say is uh the the fence is is is well in tune with the environment around the house as long as your your neighbor is not >> because the lake's
008already blocked by the >> wooden naturally blocked. >> Per regulation, we went with four foot on her side. Four foot on both sides obviously up within 20 ft of lake. >> Yeah. Yep. He's looking. >> Yeah. There's a lot of woods. The fence is hidden in the woods. the neighbor's backyard this way. >> His yard their yard comes around like this. >> Did you happen to get a consent form from the for the northern neighbor or >> they were all notified though for the I didn't see that that we had to notify I mean we notified but I didn't know we had to notify >> whatever Shane gave us the list. There were five neighbors they all got letter and I know she got the letter because she called me and said what is this
009about? I said well it's a fend. She said, "Okay." And she saw the sign >> and she doesn't have any >> would have told me if she had an issue. I would assume. >> I just want to explain why I was asking for that photo. And I did go down and look at it. >> We have the photo. >> Well, we we used to have >> You see, you picked the wrong one. >> I mean, the greenery looks like it would be blocking the view >> anymore than the fence. Yes. rest. We have a really nice wooded lot which is very nice. >> Yes. Any any other members of the commission? You too, Matt. I mean, as an alternate, you're d they're in a public hearing, they're able to comment forms well for the neighborhood.
010>> Yeah. I think it's a very nice looking. >> No, it does. You've given us very good detail and photographs and and everything as far as I'm concerned. So, if no one else has any questions, I'll close public hearing. PCC 25-13 >> and then see we'll move up bold business. You can stay. >> We're going to close it. >> Yes, I just closed it. Make a motion to close it. >> I'll second vote on the closing. >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> All in favor closing public hearing. >> Unanimous. Okay. Now we have moved up all business. PGC2-13 applicant James Brandolini location 272 per truck trail application special permit application for fence in Highland Lake District. Let me see if I find a move. Um, I'll make a motion to approve application 25-13, special permit, owner,
011applicant, James and Lynn Brandolini, address 272, Kurt Rock Trail, proposal special permit application for fence in Highland Lake District, section 45 415-13 B3. In evaluating this application, the planning and zoning commission has relied upon information provided by the applicant. And if such information subsequently proves to be false, deceptive, incomplete, and or inaccurate, this permit shall be modified, suspended, or revoked. Two, this application is consistent with the town's plan of conservation development. Three, this application meets the criteria and standards of 3J common regulations, special permit, special exceptions. >> Second. >> Okay, John second it. Um, anybody got any any comments, any conditions? Okay. No discussion. All in favor. [Music] >> Thank you very much. >> Okay. You're welcome. Thank you. >> John, don't forget to sign it. Seconded by >> Yeah. Send Willie back in. >>
012You got to sign it where it's seconded by you and approved. >> I got to sign it. Approve. It hasn't been that long. >> Can you vote on >> Well, I didn't even sign it approved by. So, I'm not that bad. >> I was going to say >> Okay. >> That's how bad that is. >> We're back. >> Oh, you're back. Okay. I turn the meeting over to our chairman. [Music] >> I'll give up. I'll sign this one. >> Yeah, you voted on it. You have to. Yeah. >> And I'm unseated again. Now we're going to continue on to public hearing PZ C-25-12 applicant town of Winchester proposal amend zoning regulations article 3 section 415-133 article 4 section 415-43 rearrangement of section numbers to maintain Ain alphabetical orders article 5 section 14-54 and appendix A
013to open the public hearing. >> Big crowd. Okay. Make a motion to close the public hearing. >> So these are all the ones that were emailed to us, right? >> Yes. >> The other day. >> Yeah. No changes >> and we discussed that at our last meeting because of the window for notifying the [ __ ] but I've got a response back. >> We did get a response. >> No, no, >> we're talking about all the changes right now. >> Yeah, this is um fences in the HL district, cleaning that up. It's um helipads, adding definitions for um changing the definition for manufactured home, mobile home. And then just a couple. >> So I I do have I do have an issue on the fences. Um because I thought we were going to get clarity on the
014the 9 ft view shed in the sideyard. How does that interact with the the setback the fence setback? >> So I think there's still a 9 foot setback for structures. It stays in place. So I think that's still relevant. Width of the viewshed shall not be less than 9 ft and shall be located within the sideyard of the line. >> So that decks and sheds >> this is in the fences. This is within the fences and freestanding walls. Yeah, >> that 90 ft came back up again when we're talking about the set, but it's it's present up up in the forward paragraph. >> Which subsection number is that? >> It's a a revision. So, it's a third paragraph. Okay. So, um I mean we're public hearing is open so we can modify as needed. Do
015we want to just delete that sentence? >> So the public hearing still open >> technically. >> Yes. >> Okay. So you guys can speak. >> Yes. >> Explain that to Matt here during the previous one. The alternates can speak during public hearing. So, do we want to quantify viewshed from the public right away? >> Right now, we're not. We're just saying kind of uh subjectively where is it? >> Yeah. And I think >> session are you in again? Sorry. >> So, third paragraph. It's section subsection A. >> Yeah. Subsection A. It's the last sentence of subsection A. a the final sentence and this yeah you're right so this comes down to that originally there were two setbacks for fences written in there the 9 foot setback and the twoft setback and we all agreed that
016a 9- foot setback for a fence didn't make sense so we were going to stick with the twoft >> two foot >> there is elsewhere in the regulation that it speaks about a 9 foot uh viewshed >> within 41513 not 13 subsection three. Um, and so my feeling is we could probably just delete that sentence there. >> I would agree because I think that's an enforcement nightmare. Where are you measuring the fuse shed from? >> Right. It is an enforcement nightmare and it's it's impractical to anybody trying to locate a fence in that district as well or really anything. You're you're talking about maintaining a viewshed, but then you're also requiring vegetative plantings along the sides of the fence. So you're kind of like, as we just discussed with the last application, you know, in
017in that case, the the the plantings are more of an issue than the fence is. >> Can we limit the height of the fence in that area? >> Right. >> So are you suggesting that the sentence the width of the shed area shall not be less than 90 ft and shall be located within the sideyard of the lot be deleted? That that would be my suggestion with relation to the fences in particular. >> We we we as the commission could still have the power authority to to not grant a sixoot fence across the front yard, right? Because it's blocking the view. We don't need that 9 ft there. Allow us to say that. >> Yep. >> Scott, you have anything to add? No, I'm just um I made some comments on this, but but I'm
018so far I'm good. I agree with the eliminating the view. >> I do as well. The enforcement would be crazy. >> Yeah, exactly. >> I agree. >> You okay? >> Yeah, I I said I agree. Yeah. >> All right. >> So, motion to close the public hearing. >> Well, I'm good. Anything else? >> I'm good with that. And then one other thing is I'm back. Okay. Um, yeah, that sentence fences and walls must designed to be semiopen are are are piled stones, rock walls are those walls like naturally just a field stone pile up into a wall. Is that a is that a wall? That's not going to be semiopen. >> So where where is that? >> Um, that is in subsection B. All fences, walls must be designed to be semi-open. Used to be
019fences only. >> Oh yeah. and walls should not be there. >> Take out walls, >> right? Because Right. I mean, h how >> not easy to build. >> Yeah, >> it's not easy to build a semiopen wall. And the walls are regulated. The height of walls are regulated differently anyway. So, okay. >> Yeah. Four feet. >> Yeah, >> you can build a three foot one, >> Right. >> Good catch there, Adam. >> Yeah, keep it coming. I think it's all I got. Oh. This is why I've got eight other eyes to read that stuff before it gets approved. >> So, we'll note that when we get to a decision on this, we'll just want to add those two things as a condition that makes >> Yeah. Have to write those in the conditions. >> Give
020it to Adam the right. >> Yeah. You brought them up. Close the public hearing. >> We ready to close the public hearing. >> Anything more, >> John? >> Char, >> I'll make a motion to close the public hearing. >> I'll second. >> Okay, >> vote on it. >> So, now we're going to vote on this. Uh, I would just give this to Adam to read since he's going to add all the extra comments. Let you make the motion. >> That's the best way. Straight forward. Applicant town of Winchester, Connecticut. Motion that the that the Winchester planning and zoning commission adopt the following resoning regulations text amendments. Updates to article. We're talking about offenses only, right? This is a motion for everything. >> This is >> so no other >> 25- 12. >> No other discussion.
021>> We have no other discussion on helipads all that everything else. Okay. So start over. Um to approve application number 25-12 stonian regulation change. Applicant town of Winchester, Connecticut. Motion that the Winchester Planning Zoning Commission adopt the following zoning regulations tax amendments. Updates to article 2 section 415-13 subsection 3 fences and walls in the Highland Lake District. Modify setback requirements and clarify language. Updates. Let me do a updates to article um article IV add new section regulating helellipads as section 415-43 rearrange subsequent section numbers to maintain alphabetical order updates to section five section 415-54 glossy of terms add definition of helellipad modified definition manufactured home and mobile home updates to appendex A use table clarify us as a zoning per by by zoning permit. Include change of use in existing spaces as ZP as a
022ZP use in certain zoning districts. Add hellads as SP use in certain districts. Add landscaping construction yard which was left out as a scrivener area. What's that? >> I never get to add your >> Okay. And then uh conditional approval on section 14-13 subsection 3 which is eliminate the language of the width of the viewshed area shall not be less than 90 ft and should be located within the sideyard of lot that uh >> that sentence that is uh 415-13 subsection 3 subsection A to write that This my penalty. >> Q. >> Can I get these drafts ahead of time? >> I've got five more to add, Adam. So, >> if you call in your suggestions. Yeah. So small. Oh god. All right. Conditions 415-13- subsection 3 subsection A eliminate the width quotes the width
023of the viewshed area shall not be shall not be less than 9 ft and shall be located within sideyard of lot additionally eliminate oh 415-13 subsection 3 subsection B eliminate the words and walls >> and from every from be from each place. >> No, just the second census. >> Okay, >> thank you. Thank you. >> Based on Jeremy's suggestion that we should put on there that these uh changes in text amendments of the regulations will become effective September 1st, 2025. Okay. Anything else? Describe. All right. Made by Adam Corduroli. Seconded by >> Sean Queen. I got to sign. You got to sign. >> Vote on it. >> We got a vote. >> All in favor? >> Pass. You got to sign the favor, too. It's coming back this way. Anyway, >> you sure we got
024enough ink for this? >> I'm running low. >> This way. >> Okay. So, now we're on to item number seven, new business. CCC 25-14 applicant town of Winchester proposal text amendment to article 3 section 415-25 to include language that allows the commission to request technical reviews from the cons consultants and to charge the applicant the fee of said review and the hearing scheduled for August 25th 2025. So we don't really do anything now, right? Okay. The town never had that before. >> No, >> it's codified in the wetlands regulations but not in the ar zoning was for L. >> There was nothing else in the zoning >> because I remember when a golf course came through here the planning and zoning sent it out for outside review. >> That was Are you sure it was
025in uh in the wetlands? >> Wetlands did and we use the same consult in the planning and zoning. It's a pretty common practice. It might have been done as a matter of course, but this will lock it up. >> I'm glad it wasn't writing. >> Yeah, >> I'm surprised it hasn't language. >> Okay, now we're on to other business discussion, joint meeting with the economic development commission. >> Yeah, this was uh brought to me by uh EDC's new chair, Tom Carter. uh he would like to start meeting with all the different land use commissions, but specifically you guys uh and just to have a discussion of uh you know aligning goals and making sure everyone's on the same page and pulling in the same direction and working together. Um so he wanted me to ask
026you if you guys would be willing to have a joint meeting with the EDC and if so we can work on scheduling that. >> I think it would be more of a workshop if you will. How's the board feel? >> I mean, I I think we should. I mean, we've met with wetlands and >> zoning board of appeals in the past and those were very productive. >> I have no problem with that. >> I think it's great. >> Okay. >> So, I'll report that back and we'll we'll start trying to hammer out a schedule on when to do that. >> So, now it'd be nice to have at least once a year, too. >> Yeah. >> So, I have an addition to other business. >> Sure. Uh, now that we have parking lot ordinances or
027regulations, should that we start looking at getting the Metal Street parking lot next to Little Red Barn legal plan? >> I'll turn that over to Rrista. >> Yeah. So, I actually have to get you those proposals. They're in my car. >> Okay. >> Um, so that Northwest Hills Council of Government received a $200,000 assessment only grant for that parking lot and for me street. that's adjacent to it. Um, all of the contracts are closed. We received three proposals for the work. Uh, we'll review the proposals, hire a consultant, and then part of that work is going to be identifying what contamination is there. If any, uh, conceptual plan, site plan that matches a remedial action plan that the town can then use, um, to do final engineering, get their approvals in construction. So, that's that's
028underway. >> Okay. It'll be a few months still. It's a six to eight month depending on who selected a six to eightmonth project for all the assessment work, but I can try to prioritize some of that work. Um, so maybe we can get it a little bit sooner, but it's it's in the process underway to try to figure out what that should look like and the design should be with the environmental contamination if if there is any. >> That's great news. >> Great. >> I have a question other business. Were we going to look eliminating um the rest of the fences, not the Highland Lake District fences, but other fences. >> Yeah. So, I think you know, and we've been kicking this around a little bit in the office, too. I think an interpretation from
029the commission is fine because as we went back through the regulations, where it's coming from is your definition of structure. And so if the commission agrees that other than the Highland Lake District, we don't include fences as a structure uh for the purpose of permitting, then we just stop we just stop that. >> Do you want a motion of that or do you want >> I think a motion's probably a good idea. >> Why would you not the same regulations for all the lakes in town? No, you want them separate. It's it is you know the Highland Lake District has its own set of rules and then the rest of the town is just regulated. I mean the fences are just regulated as a structure just a you know so so they comply with the
030setbacks and all the rest of it. That's how how they're treated as opposed to in the HL district where they have this whole section that we discussed earlier tonight. >> So when a zoning enforcement officer goes up to Park Pond or something or someplace okay and he wants to know about uh when somebody asking about fence. Do you use the Highland Lake fence regulations? >> No. No. >> The Highland Lake zone is a zone unto itself, >> but anybody up in Winchester who wants to put up a fence has to come and get a survey and a permit and everything and meet the setbacks, which I think fences are really more of a civil matter. I think there's really good reasons around certain areas to regulate them. Like Highland Lake, if we wanted to do
031something special around a different lake, I think we could look at that separately. But from a city or townwide perspective, having an enforcement officer manage that I think is a waste of time. They're mostly due to civil action anyway or neighbor dispute. Um, and >> the problem is when he finds out about it, it's usually already out, >> right? But why why have you ever regulated that in any town you've worked in? >> Fences. Yes. You have to get a fence permit, a zoning permit for a fence, >> and they have to be 9 ft away from the property line. >> Oh, no. That's no nothing like that. >> Right. So, why would we treat a fence like a structure? >> Typically, the way I've seen it is they they require a after a certain
032height, I think it's over seven feet in the building code, it requires a building permit. And so then that'll also trigger a zoning review because a building official can't issue a building without a zoning permit first. But anything underneath that height, you know, which is most fences are going to be six feet anyway. It's pretty unusual that you get one more than, you know, more than six feet. So, out in the rural residential district and and all all over town, I mean, it's sort of an added cost for homeowners to go get their property surveyed. Then they got to come in here and get a permit. Then Jeff's got to do the the sign off and then the, you know, the inspection. It's it's >> What setback are you holding them to? >> Uh, two
033feet. >> But that's none of the regulations, >> right? We call we call it common practice uh and advise them for two feet so they can maintain it without trespass and usually people go for it. >> Right. But that would never be enforceable in court an appeal or anything of that sort. So I I mean what I've done in towns that I've been an enforcement officer is you know put them on your property line and or before recognize you have to maintain them and if your neighbor doesn't want them on your property you got to find a way to maintain them from your side. any limitations on front yard fence. >> There's nothing written in there currently. >> Yeah, you can't block sight lines. >> Yeah, >> that that becomes a traffic issue, not a
034zoning issue. >> And it's got to be on your property. You can't put it out in the rightway anyway. You can't put anything out the right way. >> And commercial property still need to put anything on a site plan. >> Yeah, >> that would come in. So, how would we handle that? >> I I think like I said, I think an interpretation from you all that a fence doesn't doesn't with the exception of in the HL district where it's clearly spelled out um that we don't need to be reviewing it and requesting a zoning permit. That's all we really need. Uh if if somebody wants to make a motion to that effect, we can simply say that, you know, it's it's a >> So, do we need to add this to the agenda first? >>
035We could we could do that. I mean, it's we're not changing regulations. We're not doing anything like that. We're just or if it's just guidance from you all without a motion, I think that's sufficient, too. Right? We're having this discussion if if everybody's >> we don't have any regulation. >> There's nothing written and I think >> so then >> it's just been common. >> There's no regulation. Why do we have to say anything? >> Right. Right. >> Well, I think because it's being interpreted and it has been interpreted different and so to change that we want to document that. So, what I think I would like to do is I'd like to make a motion to add to the agenda discussion and um commission interpretation on fences as a structure. Is that okay? Language. >>
036Yeah. >> If you get a second, I'll second it. Yep. I'm in favor of All in favor? >> Who second it done? >> I did. >> That's just added to the agenda. >> Yeah. >> Right. >> Yeah. Now with this being added to the agenda, we don't have to publicize it or anything like that discussion. Yeah, you can add it's not a special meeting. So you can add to the agenda and it's it's just a discussion topic. We're not changing any regulations. >> There's no public hearing involved. It's just an interpretation from the commission. >> It's just like anything else where staff comes to you and says, "Okay, commission, we need to know how to handle this." >> Okay. So, we need to take a vote on this now. >> Well, uh, hold on structure.
037So, it's already added to the agenda, right? that was voted on. >> Yes. >> So then I'd like to make another motion um that the interpret correct me if I should use different language. The interpretation of the definition structure as currently written a structure is anything constructed or erected with which requires location of the ground or attached to something having a location on the ground. um should exclude fences that are six feet or less with the exception of um fences that are regulated within the Highland Lake District or 7T or less. 7T [Applause] on your enforcement items. Are there any fences? >> Not currently, but we have had some fence curles in the past. Uh, and >> typically when they when they keep getting problematic like that, we refer them to this is a civil
038matter between you guys anyway. So, it's a big waste of big use of time, I should say. >> So, read your motion again. >> Okay, I didn't write it down. >> Okay, write it down and read it again. My structure uh structure as defined in the regulations um should exclude fences 7 ft or less. uh except where other otherwise regulated in >> Highland Lake District. >> Yeah. But if there's other places where it's regulated like such as a commercial like site plans, whatever. Is it otherwise regulated in these these regulations? Is that right? Is it six feet or less or seven or less? >> I think it's fine. Seven or less. >> And that's what your visibility code. >> Yeah. So, >> and the only reason I'm pushing for this is being in Jeff's shoes
039and being in this for so long. Something like this can take an astron astronomical amount of enforcement time. It's usually just two neighbors battling and it's also, I think, um, an unfair expense to residents. So, it doesn't doesn't really provide much benefit from a regulation standpoint. So, I I do think it's um that's the only reason I brought it up again and I think that it should be addressed. >> So, enforcement letters when they go out, do you don't have like a $100 a day fine after 30 days? >> I mean, yeah, enforcement letters do come with uh $100 fines after 14 days of receipt if it gets to the point of an official violation letter. >> Okay. something like this, you wouldn't send the letter. You would just let the neighbors >> fight it
040out themselves. >> Correct. >> So that means if you if I was poor and my neighbor had money next door and I could never fight him on this fence and I'd have to live with it. >> Yeah. I mean that would be the case now regardless of this change. >> I didn't think the town took back seats like that. We used to have to zoning enforcement wetlands. We enforce it right away. Make it happen. So what what if somebody doesn't have a lot of money and they put up a fence and now you're going to make them look at a survey and spend thousands of dollars. >> But enforce what Scott >> enforce if it's let's say it's supposed to be 3 feet four feet and he's got it six feet or eight feet. >>
041But did you just say we've never really had that in there? >> We don't. Yeah, we don't have a second. >> We've never had that in there. So how what were we enforcing? It wasn't a regulation. It was just kind of a >> Well, the one I'm thinking of was uh on Lake Drive when we had lumber to put an 8 foot fence up. >> Yeah. Yeah. No, I understand what you're saying. We've never actually when he said we haven't had regulations, it's like >> and just just point of clarification, ape offense would have triggered a building permit and then there there is more more >> that's why we went after right away because it >> Okay. So there is something that already triggers that example. So >> So that must have changed since I
042was here 25 years ago. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> I'm sure. >> Yeah. I mean build building code changed just a couple of years ago. I think the last update 2021 is what triggered the seven foot uh requirement. I think it used to be over eight required a building permit and that and they dropped it down to seven to catch the six leave the six foot fences but anything above it I I think is how that went. I can't quite remember. But the other you know the other thing is most of the time with in my experience most of the time if we get a complaint on a fence it's because somebody installed it on the wrong side of the property line and that's not something we're going to enforce anyway because that's always a
043civil matter when a property line comes into play. We're not getting involved in that. We're going to sit back and go you guys have to figure this out. We're not surveyors. tell you where is you tell us where you're from. >> I'm very surprised at that statement. >> And I also feel like if we said, "Okay, we're going to give you a permit for two feet and that's not in our regulations. We open ourselves up to lawsuits and we're going to spend a lot of attorneys fees and lose." >> It's it's people need to know where their properties are and they need to follow the rules, >> right? And you can put your fence >> put your fence up. If you don't know where your property line is, your neighbor wants to get a survey.
044>> It >> keeps the town out of it. >> Any further discussion, Scott? >> I'm good. >> Not good, but I'm good. Seems like the system's getting weaker, that's all. And it doesn't protect the residents. That's where I'm coming from. I can't go to work tomorrow and somebody's got a fence up and I'll do something. But I I think it's so I think it's the generation. >> The way I feel now is if you want to put a shed up, you got to get a permit. >> Yes. >> Now, I personally had to get a $3,000 survey to put up an 8 by8 shed. Cost more than the than the shed did. >> At least it's on your property. >> Huh? >> At least it's on your property. >> Oh, yeah. I knew that before
045the survey. Yeah. >> So, I'm a little a little mixed on on fence, >> but apparently we've never >> If we never had it, >> that doesn't Yeah. >> What's more interesting about it is there's actually it's been enforced, but there's never been a regulation that's actually enforcing it kind of practice. >> Yeah. Years ago it was enforced and then as times changed. >> What was enforced? >> Was there a reg then? >> Yeah, we used to go out and enforce fences if you put a fence up and it was >> But was there a written regulation about fences and I think we had 12 pages of fence regulations at the time. >> We should be able to see that, right? Prior revisions. >> Sure. >> Pull up our older >> because it was >>
046I'll go to service. >> But if we don't have if we don't have the regulation and all this is doing is just saying that the HL res fence regulation doesn't apply to the rest of the town, then we're not creating anything other than what's already in place. So, I guess I can be good with that. And if you wanted to shed and you knew where the pins were and you knew where the pins were and you knew you were safe, I'd say you don't need a survey because you know right where it is. >> So if you don't need a survey, we tell you. But if it's right on the line, then we need a survey >> on smaller lots. >> But you're not going to know that. >> If you can't show me your
047pins, then the answer is no. Until you can show me your pins or come to >> Yeah. How do I stop you from putting up a fence? >> That's the problem. You wouldn't unless you called the zoning officer >> and then they're going to It's civil matter. >> It's civil matter. You're on your own. >> But even if they do, >> but they're still saying that now anyways, >> right? >> So, I guess I just need to bend with the times. Weaken. I'm okay with that. >> I mean, >> yeah, >> people I don't think people would be happy, especially if you had half dozen at the lake and the fences were on somebody else's property. >> Some of the lakes will contain >> the lakes property lines. We just don't regulate property lines. Right.
048We >> regulate setbacks. If we're not going to require a setback, >> that's why are we going to make people tell us where the property line if there's no setback? >> And we typically are in the business of regulating structures with ground coverage as well or permanent structures that you know are used, you know, h have some sort of use tied to them, whether it's an accessory shed or whatever the case may be. Whereas a fence doesn't have a roof. It doesn't I mean yes it's located on the ground but it's not it's not a physical you know it's not there's no ground coverage involved. >> I've worked in gober camp none of those towns have ever regulated fences >> and it sounds like we haven't but I'd be interested in what Scott's saying. I
049mean I've been here 35 years like pull out some old regs from the 90s and see if there was that kind of regulation. >> You would never know because the zoning enforcement would just go out and enforce it. >> Yeah. Well, but there'd be a written record of I mean, we have the old rigs around. I I have a set of They're all posted. >> Yeah, I have a set of 1990 rigs, so I can look in them and see what the fence rigs were, but I mean, I'm not suggesting you wait if you want to take that up. But I think historically, it's an interesting point. >> There's plenty of communities out there and and if you know, if the commission wants to go in this direction, I I don't see an issue with
050it. There's plenty of communities out there that say, "Okay, here, you know, they'll give you a regulation and say, here's what you need to do with fences. If it's over 7 feet, it requires a permit, but if it's under seven feet, it doesn't require a permit, but it still has to be 2 feet from your property line or, you know, 12 feet from the front line. You know, that it gives you it gives you the dimensions and the location of where it needs to be without requiring a permit. So that way, if you get a complaint, you can go out and say, "Yeah, clearly it doesn't doesn't follow the the letter of the REGG." You can do it that way. It's I mean it's how we did it in Southernington when I was there. It's
051how we did it in East Hampton when I was there. But it didn't require a permit. And so it very rarely was an issue except when we got those calls from somebody who said they put a fence on my side of the property line. Well, okay. Go get a survey. Show us that it's on your side of the property line and then we'll, you know, we'll deal with it. So I have to deal with that every day when I go to work. People call and complain about events and they wanted to do something about it. >> Okay. And can you or are you saying you did that in the past? >> No, I still do today. >> Yes. >> I think with the younger generation things are changing to be honest with you. >> Well,
052I think we have so many other things. >> What town? >> Plymouth. >> I think we have so many other things with our regulations, with our plan reviews, with the we're trying to do to have Jeff spending his time on on that. But >> yeah, I just I think it's I think it's a problem in that you don't have a regulation. So, we're regulating something that we don't have anything written down for. So, somebody comes in says, "I want to put up a fence." We have no guidance in terms of where the fence needs to go. Then Jeff is expected to issue a permit and then if there's a problem, enforce it. Well, what are we enforcing it? you know, if he if he gets a call from somebody out not in the Highland Lake
053District, but somewhere out Winchester Center, what are we looking for? >> We're looking for a property line. But if you know what I'm saying, there's there's nothing written down. So, if you want to put something in writing, that's fine. >> What we typically ask for is uh I'll just call the site plan even though it's really just for the fence. And they'll mark in, you know, 2 feet from property line or something like that. So, that's what I would be enforcing or attempting to enforce, but it's not regulation driven. and it's picture driven, >> right? >> Um, so and in cases where there's tight property lines, lake we don't have to talk about because we're already going to regulate it. >> Uh, but we may be forced to require survey of someone. If they want
054us to permit it, we need to be sure of the location. So, there's an undue expense. >> If we don't have the regulation, they can't be permitted. >> Yeah. None of that applies. >> They're allowed. >> So, basically, somebody could come in seven foot high fence. No, because >> that's building permit. So, it gets review >> seven and below. >> So, put up a seven foot high fence >> on the boundary line all the way around their property up to the boundary line in the front on an intersection or on a corner. >> Well, then you have sighteline issues. >> Then you have sight line issues. >> That already Well, the local traffic authority and the police department and public works would have a problem with the front sight line issues, especially if it's intersection.
055So they would >> Well, we don't have any regulations for sight lines for fences. >> Plus, you can't put a fence at the very front of the property because the rightway goes into most properties in at least in town. Winstead, >> the rightway goes halfway into most people's >> front lawns on Hallebert and Walnut and so forth. >> So if you're off the rightway, like he's saying, you put up a six and a half foot fence, then I put another foot on for a light and extension. The way the regulations are written, I got seven and a half feet and I don't need a permit. And it could be a solid fence. I just create my compound and stay out. >> So why do you care? Why do you want people to come in? >>
056So you have you have a neighbor yard >> who's got five junk cars on his property. He puts up a 7 foot high fence got a gate on it. This one neighbor can see it from his second story, but you can't see it. >> So they show him a picture and he sends an enforcement letter, >> but he can't prove it's there. >> Yes, he can. How do how does the neighbor the neighbor shows a picture >> the neighbor shows a picture but how does he prove that that was a picture of his neighbor of his >> of the fence >> I just thought the fence regulations for every water body in town is what I thought >> yeah you don't have them you have you have just the HL district it doesn't cover anything
057else >> and Lake Winchester is typically estates that have plenty of property so that's not a problem uh park pond I don't know if there's a fence near park pond to be honest with you. It's more of an open >> There is at the can >> is there? Oh, at the camp. >> There's a couple couple smaller properties that have some fences, but I don't think they go down the water line. >> Yeah. So, you know, different areas are going to have their different issues, but I mean HL definitely needs those regulations. It's people are on top of each other. >> I'm good with that. You're the one that has to enforce it. So, >> correct. Becomes a problem. I guess we write regulations. >> Yeah, we could. like we did with driveways. >> Will
058we know it's a problem? Do you send them to civil or do you actually have a feel on the on the matter of >> I think we would probably have a good feel of it. Most people would start their complaints here in the land use office and if we have to direct them to the courts, you know, >> and typically if it's at like that, there's a lot of other neighbor fighting going on. It's not about the friends. >> It's got feud. >> I thought fences made good neighbors. >> They do. >> They're supposed to, right? >> Tall fences make good neighbors. >> They have to be fences, right? Because I'm dealing with somebody that's got pallets. >> Pallets. >> They made a fence out of pallets. >> Yes. And he's trying to keep his
059horses in and neighbors complaining. So, I can tell you right now, I think I'll I'll be issuing. >> We might have other ways to attack that. >> There's one of those on Front Street. >> Yeah, that sounds like >> made out of talents. Yeah, >> I saw that. >> Yeah, right. >> Yeah, but that's sad to say, isn't it? >> I thought you were going to get away with nothing police officer. >> Well, that's and that's the problem, right? It's, you know, we try to keep ourselves out of that stuff as you know, try to keep yourself out of that as much as you can. you end up in these neighbor battles that right, it's not about the fence, it's about emptying other things. >> And and I also have a very strong belief that
060it's private property and people have rights on their property to do what they want. We have regulations to protect neighbors and to protect the values, the health, safety, and welfare. But if somebody wants five foot fence or six foot fence and two meters, I mean, we got to we got to protect the property values and neighbor and you can't, you know, junk cars property. They can cause environmental contamination, but it but people have a right. I mean, if we're regulating things just to be the police to say we can. I I just don't unless there's a reason for it. >> All right, everybody done? I'm done. >> Sorry, guys. >> I think we got a motion on that, but I don't know that we got a second or >> I'll second it. >> There's our
061second. >> All right, >> that was >> All right. All in favor? >> We don't get a vote. >> I don't just have it. >> Okay. Approval of the July 14th, 2025 regular meeting minutes. >> I'll make a motion to approve the July 14th regular meeting minutes. I'll second it. All in favor? >> I'll abstain. >> You have enough anyway with the four >> and then the communications from the CEO report. >> So all of these are now open up. >> They are. >> Okay. When you say here, so >> click on that. >> This won't work. Yeah, that's possible. But on your computer screen when you got it in an email, any of those things that are >> underlined, you click on. >> But what's the actual thing to get there? Open dub. That's
062where you go. >> Yeah, it's open. >> So, I'm in the process of writing a piece for the uh lake watershed association newsletter >> uh which discusses open gov, all its uses, and how to look up properties and such. So when that gets finalized, I can cut the top of the paragraph off and issue it to all of us as well. >> Love that. >> Uh but just for for a snapshot, we were able to just spit out this quick report >> of code enforcement issues in town. Uh we did break it up by active and complete. So you could see there are quite a few that are ongoing. Um and you know, there are still other enforcement issues that never make it to an actual enforcement record. you know, I can call someone on
063the phone or email them if they have that contact or even if knock on the door and work things out. So, those never really make it to paper. Uh, but lots of action out there. I'm sure Scott understands. >> But I agree with you. If I could verbally take care of it, I don't paper. >> Yeah. You don't want to go through all that quick, >> right? >> And as always, if you have specific addresses you're interested in, you could ask me. uh soon you'll know how to look them up on open gov and follow there. Um but whatever it takes have any questions. >> Thank you. >> Not on that other questions for >> you questions. Go ahead. >> Not about this report. Um trailer park. What's going on? >> Did you notice a
064building was missing? >> I watched you take it down Sunday. >> Yeah. >> It's it's great to do stuff on the weekends without permits. Uh I've been in contact with uh Michael Block who is the owner of the properties there. It's actually two properties 928 and 936. The Mainway Auto building which previously stood there was taken down without permits. Uh he is in the process of pulling the permits and he's also paying the postfacto fees that go along with those permits. Uh he also needs to get a wetlands permit because of the distance to not the river in the back but the river across the street because it's uh 100 ft or less from the area of disturbance. >> I did allow his contractor to card off the remains of the building uh because I
065was on them to stabilize it and put up sill fencing around. >> Yeah, today they graveled it and leveled it off with a bulldozer. >> They graveled it too. Okay. So, more work that he's done without discussing it. >> Look at it. You'll see. >> Uh, but anyway, once we work through all that, he still doesn't know what his end goal is for the site. Uh, he would like to bring in some additional trailers. Last year sometime I went down the rabbit hole and I think I found proof that there were two additional trailers on that lot compared to what's there now. Uh, it's really incumbent upon him to prove to us if it's any more than that. But I've stressed to him he needs an updated survey. He's going to have to come in
066with a site plan before the commission and go through the whole process. >> Trailers were on the rear lot, not the front lot. >> Two lots, right? Two different lot. Yeah. Yeah. The trailers were only permitted to the rear lot. >> Correct. >> Doesn't look like they came or that's because the building has been taken down. They used to separate. A bit of an optical illusion. >> Uh I wouldn't be surprised if he wants to come forward, but again, that's going to be driven by whatever >> approvals. I heard rumors he was looking to change the driveway location also, which I mean then he's got to get get a DOT permit for the driveway access in there. >> And we did inform DOT of uh his encroachment in the rightway as well, so they're working
067their angle. Uh >> it doesn't seem to bother him though. >> He's just going ahead anyway. >> People don't care. >> No, it's it's amazing. >> I had a person move a house on a weekend in Colbert. made it to the weekend, moduled our house. Yeah. >> Up there where the gravel operation is up here in >> Route 8. Put the house in a trailer. Took it up through the woods and put it on some foundation. >> Cool. >> So, we are working with making it up. >> And ECAD, where do we stand with that situation? Uh, ECAD, I spoke with uh, Alan Borgghazi last week after it was brought to our attention that the dumpster has moved from its approved location to a unapproved location uh, directly on the fence line uh, with Dr.
068Cavalary next >> approved parking lot that parking lot >> which is still there. >> Yeah. Long story short, uh Allan says he's going to be getting in the application for the uh dumpster pad and enclosure, which will be in the approved location. I gave them two weeks to get this application in. >> Did they already remove the original dumpster enclosure that was there >> because they dumpster should be back where it belongs? >> I'm sorry. The dumpster should be back where it was originally permitted for till they come in and get permits, not sitting by Newfield Road where everybody could see it driving up and down the road. Well, like I said, I gave him a clock in two weeks because I know they're working towards the permanent location. Um, so we could escalate it
069if if you like, but >> I'm just >> whatever. Given the history, I think you don't do it. >> We've got an illegal parking lot that's been there for 5 years. >> Yeah. >> Mhm. And he obviously well he's got had an approval for a second building and he was going to take care of all these issues and hasn't >> never coming. >> No. And now he's violating our regulations again >> and we're letting giving him weeks upon weeks more. >> I'll reach back out tomorrow. I mean why why can't he take his tractor and move it back to the permitted location until they're ready to start construction? I can understand temporarily when there's construction, he needs to move it to a different location, but he had a permitted location with an enclosure. >> That's
070where it should be because right now it's next to a wooden fence. If there's a fire in it, it starts the fence on fire and the fence is 20 ft from the neighbor's house and we're dealing with a structure fire. So, that's my my problem with it. Then I'll have to be dealing with it. >> All right. At that point, >> I'll reach back out tomorrow and uh demand to get moved out. >> So, when he comes in for a permit, how long does he have to put his structure up for the dumpsters, his his pad, and his fence? >> Once he gets the building permit, >> yeah. >> Uh not an expert in building permit rules, but I technically as long as you know, one nail gets driven a day, it's still active. So
071if you carry that forward, >> so Peter's thing is even more. >> What's he getting a permit for? >> So the uh pad that's going to be poured needs to be inspected uh for the footings and so forth. >> And it's going to be in the same location. >> The same loc. Yeah. Site plan driven location. >> And I'm not sure if the fence is going to be the super high fence like they have on the perimeter or not. That'll be part of the what they tell us in the >> because one thing you might be able to do and you're it was approved on a site plan instead of issuing a zoning permit. to issue a simultaneous enforcement action that cuts that time frame. If they're in violation of the site plan, that's a
072that's a violation. And to remedy the violation, you issue the permit, but you still have to comply with the violation within >> Well, he said 14 days. So, >> right, but once he gets the permit, instead of just, okay, you have your permit, there's no more, you know, everything's resolved now. You can nail one nail a month for >> Yeah. >> the life of it. >> What location is this? >> So, you know, >> Newfield Road. >> 149 Newfield Road. >> Still, >> it it's been relatively quiet. As a matter of fact, I thought to myself, "Wow, it's been quiet." And then the dumpster thing happened. So, it was my fault. >> You going up there? >> Are you going to go up there again? Well, I'll reach back out uh tomorrow phone or email.
073That's how >> illegal parking I will next. Might as >> well check out the the Evergreen border that had died off >> because they wouldn't take Yeah. Yeah. It had been improving last year, but yeah, I haven't been there. So, it's a good excuse to make the ride. >> So, part of this is because bears were getting in a dumpster. >> That's the story. Yeah. And there may have been firearms discharged >> guidelines that can that are out there for keeping >> electric pressure around the top or something. >> So, uh, our regulations just call for the dumpsters to be screened. Uh, it doesn't talk about bear proofing, nor does it talk about, you know, residential trash totes. Uh, but as you guys are well aware, bears have been very active this year and we're
074getting a lot of tipped garbage complaints. I wouldn't mind if we set a regulation requiring the bear resistant uh containers in town. >> See, now you get back on adding costs on people because the bear resistant container is an extra feed. >> Yeah. >> It's always a balancing acted appropriately. That should that should keep them out. I mean, if the you know, if the fencing is high enough, it should deter >> for the dumpsters. >> Yeah. Yeah. Correct. I had a better break into my barn, rip my door apart to get the arm out. >> No, they'll do it. Yeah, we had one next door, take the fence down to get to the bird feeder. >> Yeah, >> they bird feeders should be illegal. Yeah, >> birds don't need food. They got plenty of food
075without us supplying them food. >> Anybody got anything else? >> Motion to adjurnn. >> So move. >> All in favor? >> We're good. >> Good. Yeah, >> Jeff, on this one on Wetmore Avenue, we have enough time to go push this out to August 11th. >> Okay, >> I thought we did, but I just