Board of Selectmen - Regular Meeting - 7:00PM - July 21, 2025

001to your lawn. I had >> just destroyed it. It's very quiet. We'll stop talking. >> Going off all week or just today? >> Um, I think tomorrow also. This is mad at me. We have to have made it worse. >> Yeah. [Music] As far as I know, [Music] Yeah, I'm returning my envelope in case it's reusable. >> Excellent. Yes, it is. Thank you. >> I had to pry it open. So, >> okay, I see that. Lori going crazy. Just got to start using packing paper. Duct tape. I think >> you don't have enough. >> It's well secured. >> Oh, I can take them if you want. >> Wow. >> I know. >> Lauren used to leave them behind the PD window so we didn't have to have them taped. >> There was a dispatcher there,

002too. Hey, Steve. >> Candy, have you heard from Linda? She's going to be here, right? >> As far as I know, she is. >> Okay. >> Now, I'm getting a little worried sometimes. That looks good. pretty. Katie, do you want to mention anything about Taekwall or just wait to see if anybody comments on it? >> It's whatever you'd like me to do. I mean, I could do a whole report or I could >> I saw I was going crazy on Facebook a couple weeks ago, >> right? >> Yeah. We're not right now. We don't have a permit. A lot of other lakes don't either because the state's been swamped by it. Um, but the Connecticut Federation of Lakes and another one just came out with supporting the use of it. Uh, but because we don't

003have a permit yet >> and it's irrelevant for us. >> Well, we're not doing it right now. I mean, as time goes on, we're probably not going to do it. I had divers take out the mil foil in Suckerbrook because you don't need permits for that. Um, so it's just a matter of whether we would start to take out nuisance plants or if we were to find hydraula in the next survey like at the bolt launch or something then we may but we may use for solid core instead of a die block. Not sure that's what issues are with that. supposedly start. Good evening. Today is Monday, July 21st, 2025. It's 700 p.m. I'd like to call the regular meeting for the board of selectman to order. Linda go, >> Troy Lamir, Paul Marino, >>

004Todd Archalashi, >> Lauren Dumbrellski, >> William Hester, >> Candy Perez, >> William Posa, and town manager Harrington will not be here tonight obviously as you don't see a spot. Please join me for the pledge of >> allegiance. I pledge algiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands. One nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. >> Item three, agenda review. Does anyone have anything to add? Seeing nothing, moving on to item four, approval of minutes of our regular board of selectman's meeting on July 7th. >> So moved. >> Second. >> Thank you, Troy. Thank you, Bill. Any discussion or corrections? Seeing no corrections or adjustments, all in favor? Opposed? Obstaining. 601. Minutes are approved. Moving on to item number five, citizens comments. The

005board of selectman welcomes public comments. Speakers be limited to three minutes or less and may speak once this round. Please give your name and just turn on the microphone up there. >> Okay. Okay, perfect. That's on. Okay. Hi, I'm Maryanne Marino, 631 Vera Road. As you all know, I have an application in for one of the open seats on Wetlands. And I will say, you guys sure do make a girl work hard volunteer. Um, what I realize that I haven't shared with you is why I care so much. I'm going to tell a little story. My grandmother was born in 1921 to immigrant parents. Her name was Maria Veroni. When she was 20, she married my grandfather, Jack Herman. They were both kids of the depression. >> Excuse me, just one second. Somebody's telling us

006there's no audio, just music. Mics are on, so it's got to be a setting. >> We've paused your time. Let me bring it up. >> Asking my husband if he could hear it. >> Check. Check. There's sound. >> Yeah, we're here. >> Okay. So, >> continue. >> Um, so my my story is this. In 1921, my grandmother, Maria Veroni, was born to immigrants from Italy. She struggled through the depression and in when she was 20 years old, married my grandfather, Jack Herman. He had an eighth grade education. and she had a sixth grade education and the two of them managed to build a small family business together and in 1970 they were able to afford to buy a cottage on Highland Lake. That cottage transformed my life. The summers here in Winstead made me a

007kid who was strong, capable, and fearless because I was free. I was free to run, swim, play, not just in the lake, in the brooks, in the streams, in the forests. And I really feel like this place made me. So, it is really important to me to return the favor and to take care of it. So, First, I want to address the statements that uh Mayor Archeloski and Select Marino made in the last meeting. Um, Select Marino claimed that our lake makes dual wetland ZBA uh service hugely problematic, those are his words, due to application crossovers. He stated that there's a 90 to 95% crossover. I'm going to give you guys these papers. Uh, I reviewed all available wetlands and ZBA meeting minutes and agendas posted on the town's website from mid 2018 when selecting

008Marino joined ZBA until the last meeting. Um, so this is what I found. There were 255 total wetlands applications. 101 of them were dock and moing related applications. That leaves 154 land use based applications and only nine of them appeared before ZBA. Seven of them appeared before doc and morning but 19 land use applications appeared before ZBA unless there are meeting minutes that were missing but from every I checked and double checked. So that's 4.9% of all ZBA and wetlands applications from mid 2020 2018 until the last meeting. So then I called Mike Damato, founder of TYKI Winstead's fractional town planning consulting firm. Um and he confirmed that several municipalities in Connecticut have or have had residents who have served both on wetlands and ZBA um or wetlands in PNZ. and he said you can't

009do PNZ and ZBA as we all know but there's no issue with ZBA in wetlands he said it's allowed nearby in Morris vice chair of zoning Giles Giovenati for many years served uh duly on uh ZVN wetlands in Lichfield uh wetlands commissioner Connie Troll Duly served as the chairman of the zoning ordinance committee both towns have waterfront prop properties on Banttom I have spoken with land use offices and town clerks in East Tatam, Middlefield, New Hartford, Brford, Guilford, Ellington, Griswald, Salisbury, Chester, Coventry, Hebrin, Hebrin, and Salem, which is as much as I could get through in the time I had. Um, they have all confirmed that their town charters do not prohibit dual ser. And the general consensus was that they would support a volunteer who wanted to do both. Candlewood Lake, Cedar Lake, Coventry

010Lake, Ashlin Pond, um the lake in Lakeville, Lake Wana Scapomic, Coventry Lake, Gay City Pond, West Hill Lake, and Gardener Lake are all in these towns. So, there's that. Um I do appreciate Select Minamir's uh comment that should there be a conflict, if I am on both boards, I should recuse myself. 100% I agree with you and I will. And if you look at my record as a seated commissioner on wetlands and currently on ZBA, I have a record of recusing myself when there's been a conflict. Um, so I'm just going to wrap up. The majority of you have publicly stated that I'm qualified to serve on wetlands. The law, as stated by Kevin Nelligan and our charter and the state constitution, permits dual service. You also have a record of approving dual service. I

011stated that in the last meeting. Um, and I'm committing to recusal when appropriate. As I said, the past seven years of wetlands and ZBA meeting minutes and agenda show only 19 out of 388 landlated projects came before both boards. So, I respectfully request that you vote to approve my appointment. uphold equal treatment of all qualified volunteers under the law and give me the opportunity to help this place that I love so much. Thank you for your time. >> Thank you. Who else would like to speak? Anyone? >> I'd like just to speak in favor of Maryanne a little bit. >> Oh, sure. You have three minutes. >> Three minutes. As much as you'd like to >> um Well, you know, we all know that she's she's been done the job before. She's good at the

012job. uh the town needs the job done. So, uh putting her in the job is supports the town's best interest is it's there. The question of the conflict of interest has come up that the uh town attorney has made it clear that's not a reason that doesn't exist. There is no counterning. He's he's our legal authority telling us that. So, that you know that doesn't exist in my mind as a reason. My nephew Paul, his brother, sister, you know, all you guys, I know a lot of you. Paul, we grew up together. You know, Troy, what do we do? We I haven't gone plowing yet, but we're going to. Uh, we know each other. Todd, um, she's good at the job. She wants the job. She should have the job. We can't offer her a

013a paradoxical offer. Uh, quit this to get this. You know, it it's something an offer paradox is something you offer someone. You offer them an offer that, you know, they're not going to accept because it abandons their basic principles. So, uh, that's not really I don't see that. I I know Paul, I think you've gone out of your way to be to not have a conflict of interest because she's your sister. You know, I think you you've done that and uh you know, there's there's there's reasons to do that and that's, you know, worthy of some pride. But I would say to everybody here tonight, she knows how to do the job. She wants the job. She's good for the town. Be proud of your decision. >> That's it. Ladies, did you want to talk?

014Joan McGlin um 61 wet I'm also here to speak on behalf of Mattie McNary to make sure that she gets position we need volunteers that are so enthusiastic it's wonderful you know she's going to show up you know she's going to do the work you know this is the best decision for the town that's all >> anyone else wants to speak >> Steven Plumbley 152 Grantville Road also here to support Maryanne all points I was going to make have been made. So, I'll just say uh uh that as we know, Attorney Nelligan hasn't has not come back and prohibited it. She has comm committed to recusing. Uh the other members of the wetlands board have written letters of support. The one thing I would say is there's there are no perfect candidates, but Maryanne is

015we all know exceptionally knowledgeable, dedicated, qualified, loves the town as she just described. So I think that as uh some others have said the town should encourage applicants like that rather than push them away or reject them. So appreciate support for her. Thanks. >> Would anyone else like to speak? >> My name is Beverly Paganelli. I live at 856 West Wakefield Boulevard. Um, I've known Maryanne for like five years. We moved up here permanently in 2020. We owned homes previously from 2009. As you see, I mean, it was evidenced tonight of her thoroughess and how she's dedicated and all the information she had gathered on her behalf to represent herself in this manner. I want someone like that to protect my property on the lake to rule in behalf of the town. She loves not

016only the lake, but you can see that she has is community-minded as well. Um I I don't understand why you wouldn't just be jumping at her. The conflict can be resolved with her recusing herself. I sat for 25 years on as a director at on a bank board and that when loans came up and I had a conflict we just ex recused ourselves and there was never any issue. I have on the other hand seen you know the political side of this and I hope that's not the problem here. Um, but I would I would be very happy to have Maryanne uh be on the board and on both boards. I think I think she's passionate and dedicated and and if she doesn't know the answer, it's obvious that she would look for the answer

017and do whatever she needed to make it happen. That's all I anticipate. >> Thank you. Is there anyone else that would like to speak? Come on up. >> Hello. Some of you know me, some of you don't. I'm Gary Goule. I'm here representing my parents who live at 120 Sucker Brook Road. My mother's sick right now. She could make it. Um I think you'd be crazy not to give her the job. She's tenacious. Obviously, you can see what she did just to represent herself as it was brought up. Um, I'm actually worried to be sitting on the other side of her someday because if you all know me, I do stonework around the lake. So, eventually we're going to butt heads. But I think she would be a worthwhile addition to the town and if

018conflict is one of the things that you see. I don't know all the laws on the bylaws. I'm simple. But I believe accusing herself. U Pete Marian did it for me when I came for a wetlands. So, if that's what it needs, if you're getting the right person for the job, I think it's worth it. Thank you. Thank you very much. Anyone else wish to speak? There'll be another public comment towards the end of the meeting if something else comes up. >> John, did you want to talk or >> me? >> Yeah. No. Okay. >> No, I'm just >> Okay, moving on. Okay, moving on to item number six, the town manager report. We have a brief report today. Um he's away with some other commitments. So last week uh last weekend he was at

019the Highland Lake annual meeting. Uh he had the pleasure of attending the annual meeting which was very well attended. Uh there were many familiar faces that he saw after two years and he started to actually feel like he knew everyone by name or at least that's what they thought. Uh the Q&A session lived up to its reputation. No stone was left unturned and he left with a notebook full of good ideas. Uh he was happy to share that the town will soon be a regular contributor to the Highland Lake newsletter. It's another way for us to keep everyone in the loop and share the good things happening or to clear up any confusion around town. Uh we did have an incident downstairs in the police department uh between July 7th and the 21st. Uh it

020was not the good kind of excitement down there. They had a minor plumbing issue that turned into a not so minor flood. Uh the good news is that all tests came back negative, so the cost to repair will be substantially less than what we were originally concerned with. Uh if you notice, there was a large trailer parked in front of town hall for about a week, a couple of weeks. Um that was the first company that we hired to do the cleanup and the repair work. Since then, we've switched to another contractor who can handle the entire job from start to finish. uh he's worked with them before in Windsor Locks and uh with a little luck everything everything down there should be back to normal soon. Also, the police car that was funded in

021the 2526 capital budget uh has arrived. We're happy to report that we have a brand new Explorer that was left over at the MHQ that was ordered and the original buyer never picked it up. We are able to save roughly $20,000 on this cruiser. Uh it's all decked out and it will be receiving its decals on August 1st. The Sue Grossman Trail uh that's been the committee's been working tirelessly to get this across the finish line. They're deep in conversations now with local land owners about the easements and from what town manager Harrington's hearing, the real inite excitement is building around the project. Uh it's clear this trail is about much more than just a path through the woods. It could be an economic catalyst that we've been waiting for for many years. The real

022potential here is for something big, maybe even the most signi sign significant boost to our town that's had we've had in a long time. He attended the youth service camp graduation that was at the tour museum. Uh it was a four-week program for kids aged 12 to 15, all centered around the following question. What does it mean to be an American? These young adults spent their summer interviewing and having real conversations with many of our local leaders. At the end of the camp, they put together a newsletter highlighting everything that they learned. And it's a genuinely impressive work. You can find the QR code for their newsletter posted around town hall and at businesses throughout the town. He had the chance to meet these remarkable kids and he was generally impressed by how proud this

023group was of their work. And lastly, we've heard about the Main Street trees down the uh east end by the park. Uh we had what could have been considered a classic Main Street drama uh when he was alerted via social media that CT DOT was removing trees downtown. There was no stopping the state on this this project. Uh they deemed that the trees were a safety hazard and they acted fast. We found out about it the afternoon before they were cut down. Uh the state has agreed to expediate the permitting process so we can replant trees. Uh we've reached out to Eversource which has a program that helps fund new trees. With a bit of luck and some of the financial support of Eversource, we should see new trees lining Main Street by early fall.

024And that's all he's provided for his report this week. >> Any comments on town manager's report? Moving on to item seven, correspondence. Does anyone have anything? >> Yes. >> Go ahead. >> In our packets, uh there are uh two letters that uh correspond to some of the things that have been happening uh recently. Uh, one is from a Connie Keith about uh, supporting Maryanne Marino for the wetlands commission. >> Okay. >> And the other one is from Ellie Gun. She's a board member of ZBA. Uh, she's referring in her letter to the proposal to remove a ZBA board member. uh and she's talking as a sitting member and her thoughts on this and she's wondering why the action to take Mr. Pollock was done without a conversation with him prior to your discussion at the

025last meeting nor the chair. Um so she has some comments on that and I think that >> both of those letters be entered into the record. >> Oh my god. Thank you. Anyone have anything else? >> Moving on to item number eight, boards and commissions. Nope. Is not >> so um LCD received several calls about music playing and they couldn't hear the the meeting. However, Joy even went back on her YouTube right from the very beginning and we watched it. We went to the time to call complained in and there's no music on her recording even. >> Okay. >> But people were actually calling Lichfield County Dispatch, the police department to complain that there was music over our hopefully they were calling the non-emergency number for this. But um >> I guess we're famous. Everything

026that we've seen seems to be working properly, but if you're having technical difficulties, we apologize. >> Boards and commissions. >> Okay. Sorry about the interruption. Before you start on the boards and commissions, I'm just curious. There were two other applicants for the planning and zoning commission alternate positions. They came in an email to us, I guess, as a reminder that we had them there and they're not listed anywhere here where they left off because well, because if this seat was filled for the nomination that's on there, there is no positions open. >> Well, why don't you list them anyway in order and then just take the first one that came through? >> Like was this one the first one? This was according to the dates. This was the next one that was >> Why don't

027you just list them so they they would be there for the next meetings? >> I guess I could have had him list them. Um but they will remain on file. They're just not up for >> right. But this becomes consideration. >> This becomes like part of a packet that we could all or whoever's here in the future can look back and see it >> as a as a record. You're saying? >> Yes. As a record of >> All right. Well, going forward, I will list all the applicants even if there's going to be >> unless they unless they withdraw it because otherwise it's kept on file somewhere. But where >> yeah, we should have access to that list, >> right? So, it could this serves as a record because it's in the packet that goes

028on the website. >> I'll add that in the future. Uh, I believe all the applications whether we accept them or not are are kept in the town clerk's office. Glenn has those in a folder. I believe >> one other thing that would be helpful. Who prepares the packets for the boards and commissions? This packet that we get. >> Go ahead. >> This comes from the top. >> More work for the person who prepares it. But there's an application here that was submitted in November 24 that I I don't have and now he's up. position. I think it would be important to have especially when we're going to appoint them to have these applications in our packet. >> Okay. You mean for all for all three steps? >> Yeah. I think we've had them in the

029past. Um something that goes back to October 20 of 24. I I couldn't find I know we received it, but I don't have it. >> Um I think it would be helpful. Okay, >> I know a little more work. >> We can get it done. >> Thank you. >> I will I will uh ask to have those added. As you know, this is my second week actually doing this. So, >> a great job. >> If you got if you got suggestions, I'm more than >> more than open to them. >> Absolutely. >> Let me just put your All right, we good. Take it away. >> All right, we have one resignation tonight. Uh John Pollock, zoning boards of appeals. U >> as of 7:15 >> the other one >> uh he rescended Hamish rescended his

030resignation. >> Oh he did. >> So it is just the one. Uh as of tonight we have nobody up for consideration. We have three nominations, appointments. First, Matt Smith. Application 109204 for planning and zoning commission party Republican seat type alternate term end date 10 of 2030. >> Is there a motion? >> So moved. >> Bill. Okay. Second. >> Okay. We have a motion, a second discussion. No discussion. All in favor? >> Opposed? >> I'm going to abstaining. >> So it is 511. >> Just one thing on that. Um just because I know there's been other work done by this applicant for another for for people there just as there's an expectation of recusals for the other person that uh they just be reminded that there are recusal times that are going to be needed. >>

031Noted. Next. Next >> we have Jamie Kooligan up for Water and Sewer Commission. Party unaffiliated. Seat is full member term date to end six of 2028. Do we have a motion? So moved. Second. Is there a second? Any discussion? Seeing no discussion, all in favor? Opposed abstaining 601. Next. >> Next we have Maryann Marino Inland Wetlands Commission party Democrat seat type full member term end date four of 2028. Is there a motion? >> I'd like to make a motion that Maryanne Marino um gets the spot on the wetlands. I'll second. Thank you Troy. Thank you Bill. discussion. >> I'd like a little discussion. I would like to say, Maryanne, if you put half as much effort into being a member of Inland Wetlands that you did to become an applicant, we're going to go far.

032Thank you very much. >> Any other discussion? So, I did have some concerns about one resident serving on two of our top tier boards. And the reason why is because we are about two years from when our former finance director was finally released from prison after 10 years because that was a gentleman who had too much power and one person having too much power in this town makes me nervous. Uh, with that, I will be voting in support of your appointment, but just keep in mind that there are a lot of people that are hesitant about government and their views of government. So, just keep that in mind. >> Except I'd just like to add, there have been other people appointed to multiple boards in this term. There have been and I think that this

033board needs to identify the top tier boards that we feel would be important not to have overlap at a future meeting and consider an ordinance to move forward with something like that in the future. Um it definitely needs to be at least talked about. I just like to add one more thing. It's a shame that we have to have uh people on several boards. there's a lot of people in this town and I would like to see people come out and volunteer and help us out. Um but unfortunately we don't get that. So we're stuck with the people that do most of the work and join several um you know commissions as I did before I was a selectman and and a couple other people on this board. So um you know uh helping the

034town out with with joining a commission is a great thing. You got to try it. If you don't like it then it's not your thing. But you got to at least try it. So >> So Troy, you weren't here the night that you that a person that did just what you just said was voted down. >> Okay. >> And who added a degree in environmental policy and was voted not to join wetlands. So and with your sentiment, we've done that for as long as we can. So I agree with you on that. >> Thank you. >> Great. >> All in favor? Opposed? Abstaining. 601. >> Congratulations. >> And John, >> John, thank you for your service on ZBA. >> Thank you. I'd >> like to thank John Pollock for his service uh on zoting board

035of appeals. And as always and every week, there's multiple positions open on multiple boards and commissions. So, as Troy said, we could use volunteers and those are listed on the council website. Should we address the letter? >> No. >> Moving on to item number nine, not unfinished business. We have no unfinished business at this point. Item 10, new business. A discussion on the applications for land use fees. Planner Jeff Green. You're alone. Nobody from Taichi here? >> No, I'm flying solo tonight. >> All right. It's part of the discussion. Okay. Uh so you should have received in your packets uh a couple of memos from uh Jeremy Darly, our consultant, regarding fees for both planning and zoning commission and inland wetlands. Uh we could take them separate together, however you like to do that. Uh

036what I'm passing out now are just a few examples of costs to the department for projects that need to be advertised in the newspaper. As you're all aware, the Republican American was bought out somewhat recently by Hurst Media and their prices all went up. Um so uh in an effort to keep the department whole and not float individual applicants uh through taxpayers at large, we wanted to just uh propose a slightly enhanced fee schedule uh which would handle those issues. So those um new proposed fees are in the memo and if you have any specific questions we can we can take those. I guess if you could just talk a little bit more about why you're trying to increase the fees in relationship to what we bring in versus what we have to pay going

037out. >> Sure. Uh right now we are upside down on uh most planning zoning commission fees. Uh if you look at some of the examples there you'll see uh what it costs us to do the required advertisements. Uh, for instance, a site plan. Uh, right now, uh, we collect a total of $175 and that leaves us $35 in the hole. Uh, special permit, we collect $250, that leaves us $210 in the hole. Uh, an excavation renewal, which uh is required to have a public hearing uh by the regulation. We collect $100 and we are $360 in the hole. Um so th those are the the reasons why we're proposing to increase the fees. Uh wetlands is a little more difficult. Um we actually have in chapter 390 which is the inland wetlands and water course

038regulations. Uh 390-19 is our application fee schedule. This schedule has never been used since I've been employed in the town. Uh we collect a a flat fee for wetlands of $230. Uh we are not upside down on that automatically. Yet if a public hearing is called for, which is uh at the discretion of the wetlands commission, we would be uh so you'll see in the wetlands proposed fee schedule, uh we are asking for a standalone fee for public hearing. So we would only collect that if and when a public hearing were necessary. Does that help answer the question? >> Yeah. Remember when we came to the building permit piece? >> Sure. >> Remember we asked for a whole delineation of what it was now and what it would be in the future. >> Uh so

039I have what would be in the future? >> But is there did I miss it? What it is now? >> Uh I have my own little notes here. Uh I can make copies for this or if you like we can uh prepare a more in-depth look at this for the next meeting if you'd like to table and continue the discussion. >> And this would just for the record this would not be the first meeting of the three. >> This is just discussion. >> This would be the discussion period. So this is not meeting number one. >> Correct. >> And we're not trying to make a profit on this either. We're just trying to break even and we want to make that clear. >> Exactly. >> This isn't to make money. This is so we don't

040lose money. It would be also helpful to show what they do in other towns when you if you can bring it in with fully charged now what the proposal is and like what it is around the neighborhood because I think it just makes it clearer for people that not necessarily us because we're hearing all the information but in case somebody else wanted to ask you know why and what's happening that we have it. >> That was the exact process we did for permitting. Yeah, I think Shane had a spreadsheet for that. >> Yeah. And just keep in mind the building permits are a little different. It's based on cost of work and so on and so forth. But we we could definitely put >> These might actually be easier, Jeff, because they are flat fees.

041>> Exactly. >> Right. >> We do not take into account staff review time or anything else in the fees. This is just what it costs us to put it through the paper and all that. >> Hopefully the state gets smart and lets it go onto the town website and not into the paper. That has been discussed. I'm not sure where that's going. hasn't gone anywhere in the 10 plus years that I know. >> But it needs to because it is. >> No, I mean we we took our own to the website. That's why we have legal, you know, underneath ours. We were able to take our own, but we weren't able to take the stat state statute board because of newspapers that really don't exist anymore. You keep requesting for that. So, it didn't pass

042through this legislative session either. >> It did not. We It's funny because we were just talking about where I work in Northfor work that that same scenario came up today about the fees in the paper how they went up and we're losing money. Yeah. >> So, they're going to be doing the same thing. >> Yeah. They've been talking about trying to change that legislation for a while. The uh newspaper lobby still has enough teeth. I guess apparently >> we don't want we don't want um taxpayers paying for individual projects >> and that's the whole idea behind this. But we will uh present further information for you at the next meeting. >> Yeah. Jeff, when you do the, as Candy called it, the um what's going on around the neighborhood, we do the comparison. You and

043I have been through this game before. So, let's >> let's not do Hartford, Fairfield. >> Let's do you know what I'm saying? Because we've been through this game before. We're like, well, this is what Hartford charges and Fairfield charges and Greenwich charges. And >> again, we're Winchester, so we'll keep it. >> Yeah. >> We'll look for local andor similar. >> Right. Okay. Any other questions on that or should we move on to the next >> I think we're good with both of them, right? >> Yeah, that was for both the fees. Yes, I'm also here for >> Oh, you got something else? >> I do. >> Next thing on mute. >> Oh, okay. I didn't see that. >> Okay. Uh so I was here some months ago with uh this item as well. This is

044proposed changes to the dock and moing ordinance. Uh these proposals come from the wetlands commission. As a reminder, it's an ordinance. So it is uh under the board's perview for any changes uh whether to accept some of the proposals or bring about your own proposals uh for the ordinance. Uh you got your packet a memo which uh provides uh it's usually red line but this is orange line for whatever reason. Uh so you'll see throughout the ordinance is printed uh anywhere where orange text appears by itself that's simply an addition to the regulate or to the ordinance excuse me. Uh if you find orange type next to any stricken uh language that is a change. So, the most substantial change here, if you flip to page seven of the memo, comes down to 380-13, which

045was previously or still is uh boat lifts and walkways. The proposal is to change uh boats to the word vessel uh throughout this section. So, you'll see that change. And the substantial uh change to this is uh previously you were allowed one boat lift and one jet ski lift. Uh the commission felt that if your property otherwise complied with all the regulations such as shorefront coverage so on and so forth that you might be able to have two vessel lifts regardless of the kind boat or jet ski. Um like I said that's the most substantial change. Also, last time I was here, the question of whether or not this uh proposal was put before attorney Nelligan, it now has been. Uh all the language is fine with him if approved by you. Uh so that

046is the docu ordinance proposed changes. >> Uh Jeff, I I didn't see anything in here um for the property owner to ask for an exemption for that docking and moing. So the uh ordinance does not allow for uh variances or exceptions uh in any fashion. The only uh change to the regulation here that could be allowed is to be closer than the required 10-ft lural boundary. Uh anytime someone comes in with an application like that, it automatically goes to public hearing so their neighbors are notified, so on and so forth. Uh but as far as any other relaxation or changes to any of the measurements or rules in this ordinance, nothing like that was put forth by wetlands. But again, I remind you this is a a board of selectman driven legislation. So if there

047are any other uh ordinance changes that you guys would like to consider, you know, now would be the time that the door is open. >> Yeah, I think maybe we need something like that in there just in case, you know. Yeah, >> I just like to pass some things out to you. Uh, one will be from Charlie Hall's house is the woman that for many years worked with the town I mean worked with ordinances on dock and moing um throughout I don't know probably probably almost my whole life no not that long uh worked for at least in the last couple iterations. So, there's a memo from her about it because I shared it with her to get her insights. And then there's some uh comments by me that I'm going to uh discuss with

048you now. And here you go, Jeff. >> There's one for you. So, I'll go through Shirley's first. Um and Shirley's uh she talks about in Jeff just said there would be a public hearing for the 10 foot um 10 foot loral boundary. What that is is you all know it's like from your property line 10 ft 10 ft in. So in what we have in orange underline however is it doesn't say will be. that says may a public hearing be be deemed necessary. Right? So she's talking about in there that get getting a waiver for 10-ft lural buffer the language is too squishy for law and leaves them open to appeal either not require any public hearing at all or require in each case but do not she suggests not using the language may be

049necessary. If a waiver is denied and a public hearing was not held, the applicant could bring administrative appeal to superior court and argue that the commission had option to hold public hearing but did not and therefore kept out evidence. All these suggestions are to make it stronger what they're looking to what they were supporting what they brought forward but making it better. If a waiver was granted over the objections of a budding waterfront neighbor and that neighbor could demonstrate harm, the neighbor could be considered an agreed person and also have standing to bring administrative appeal. The subsequent language in the ordinance that spells out criteria to be considered before a waiver would be granted appear to include information that could be gleaned from public hearing might be missing if one were not held. Either way,

050make a decision on whether to hold public hearings or not and take out the language that gives discretion. reallowing a slide to be attached to a swim float, which would be another area in there that was identified. Swim floats are 380-10 on page six there. When they attach a slide, especially to the round circle trampolines, the slides usually extend out there. Uh so she's saying uh to put language in there to take into account. The slide doesn't go over. And then in terms of definitions of vessel and a separate mention of personal watercraft, the new definition of vessel includes all watercraft. So the language in the definition of personal watercraft lift and float should read a device specifically designed to lift and hold a vessel known as a personal watercraft jet ski. So that's from

051her. Now from me, I'm the stapled one. Um, up at the top of it, I list the four things that staff put on top of their uh the request to us. So, number two, concerns with I have or concerns I've seen over the years or whatever my experience. I was inland wetlands chair back in the late 90s. Uh, so I've been around this for a while. Um, I believe it the latoral boundary needs to be tightened up. And I agree with Shirley and it may be deemed necessary to a public hearing is necessary for deliberation of a 10-ft waiver. And I can tell you why this 10-ft waiver really needs to be looked at and really contemplated very hard. Uh because imagine and it could happen to those of us that live on the lake

052now that you get a new neighbor and the new neighbor wants boat lifts because you're going to make two of them now. uh the trampoline and other things and the waterfront frontage is small. Not everyone has large amounts of property. Some people have just 25 foot strips on the water. Some people have are lucky to have maybe 150 feet on the water, but most people have small amounts of frontage. In today's world with everything online, when you buy a new piece of property, the rules are already there. So going in to get a variance or whatever as Bill was just talking about too. Uh that is you know well I'll just go through the rest of them. So I would say that the uh that there should be public hearings and that if a neighbor

053why are if somebody moves next to me why do I have to say no to overcoming the 10 foot? Why do I have to say oh yeah you can come closer to me or no I don't want you to come closer than 10 feet. So why is it that existing people have to be the bad guy on the 10-fold latoral boundary? Uh property values and we all know that property values serve this town very well in terms of the revenue that we get. Even though somebody might not be a direct neighbor of mine or someone else's, the more the code fills up, it becomes less desirable and may reduce neighbors values. So the more we put out there and this applies to the number of uplifts and stuff, the more you put out there and

054you may be friends with somebody for a long time and you say, "Yeah, that's okay." But what about subsequent owners? What happens after that? Does a new person come in and they buy the house next door and they go like, "Why is this person on my property line?" Um, so that's a consideration for that. And it affects the sections of docks on 380-10 page five and swims page six. Something that wasn't addressed and I did bring up the last time this came before us is um on page 6 380-10. It's important that you all like feast your eyes on it so it's not just me telling you this but it seems like a contradiction to me and I don't know why why it is a contradiction. Um or maybe it's not a contradiction. I'm just

055interpreting it wrong. But it says uh no part of the swim float shall be located more than 50 feet from the shorefront. And then in C it says no part of any swim float shall extend beyond the maximum dock length. Well dock is 40t. So is it 40 or 50? So I think that can easily be fixed uh with that. And then again, one of the things that the reason I know this now is because a neighbor put in a trampoline and we've had lovely wind this spring and the wind has dragged the trampoline down across the boundaries. So when there's wind, the wind takes the excess anchor line and is able to blow across. and it's not across my property, it's against somebody else's. And that's probably hap happening everywhere. So, I think the

056anchoring and the wind pushing these things, uh, you might want to look at language for for that as well. Um, and number the concerning number four on the list is the vessel lifts on page seven. So, if you're going to put in two watercraft lifts, which a lot of people already have, by the way, um if you put in two double jet ski lifts, right, because right now most people just have a boat and then maybe one jet ski lift or a double jet ski lift. So, because you say two lifts and you're not qualifying it as to what it should be, does that mean people can put in two double jet ski lifts and be able to have four vessels there? Who's going to enforce the know the three or three vessels per property?

057Would it be enforced or would somebody be able to rent a space on a fourth jet ski, right? Because if you you might put in a double jet ski and a single jet ski and then you're within your the three vessels. If you put in double two double jet skis, can you put in four or who would enforce it? Right. And so so there goes that. And then just a couple of things that happen through there is F is the width of the vessel in the walkway. Uh within through this it talks about aggregate of allowable shore shorefront coverage. uh who's measuring um does it does it matter again it's the coes and direct neighbors swim floats because it was brought up measuring the aggregate moing buoys who's measuring the aggregate and pursuant to regulation

058the state of Connecticut for markers but IWWC just allowed one so I'm not sure where that language where the waiver is on that so those are things that I saw that should I think should be considered I think you could do the things that you've brought forward. Uh but I do think that there's an effect on neighbors uh to just u simply say uh okay we have two boat lifts okay we have you know the 10 footal boundary that could be waved um because I think it does have impacts in the general neighborhood and property values and enjoyment and all that and as well as people that drive around for enjoyment all of a sudden now you're looking at a lot of lifts with a lot of canopies and So, I just bring those up

059as things to think about as we move forward. >> Thanks, Andy. >> So, um, enforcement is always the issue, right, Jeff? >> Yes, it is. >> Um, as it stands right now, the current regulations, ordinance I should say, the way they sit, we have things that need to be enforced and we don't know how to do that. The question becomes and and to Sleman Perez's point, you know, if you have if somebody puts in two vessel lifts that have that hold four vessels, who's enforcing them no more than three vessels? >> That would be me, >> right? And how's that and how's that enforcement going to happen? And I think there in light is part of the problem. Um to Bill's point about having relief, I don't think we should have any ordinance in town

060that doesn't offer a resident or a property owner the opportunity to come before a board or go to the the LTA or whatever the case may be because there should be nothing that has that everything's got to have a mechanism for relief. The way ZBA gives relief, the way wetlands gives relief, when these were written, relief wasn't part of it and it really should be. So, I think we we definitely need to look at that. Um, you know, I had a question about markers. There seems to be a trend going on right now that people are dropping in not mooring buoys, but they're dropping in what look like moing buoys out in front of their properties to direct the traffic further away from their properties. I don't know how many have been permitted or applied

061for. And you know, again, we're back to enforcement. How do we look at that? Um, you know, do we have an overall map that shows what moorings are illegal and what markers are legal? Who decides whether there's a big rock by my house that that's currently not marked? I mean, we all know it's there, but if you're new to the lake or you're visiting for the day and it breaks water, so you're going to hit it and it's going to do damage. That one's not marked. So, how do we deal with markers and permitting and who does all that stuff? If there's a rock that's a hazard, is that a town permit that the town applies for it and does it or is it the lo the person who lives closest? I mean, how do

062we even deal with all that? >> Uh, so and Candy, correct me if I'm wrong, markers are actually driven by the state. Um, whereas mooring balls are part of a local application. So, the wetlands commission does handle the moing ball portion of things. That being said, more and more, we'll just call them buoys, uh, have been appearing on the lake. This was a discussion point at the last wetlands meeting. It was the the first time it was on the agenda. So, we're beginning to talk about how we might try to combat that. Um, I even offered the heavy-handed approach of going out on the boat with the assistance of the uh police marine patrol and collecting these balls. Uh, if people then want to come claim them, we could talk about their permit. All right,

063that wasn't too well received and it was a bit tongue and cheek, but you know, when you talk about uh enforcement and ability and time that goes with it, you know, it's all about trying to find that that balancing act. Um, but again, I'll remind you um with all the good points that uh Sleman Press brought up and everything else that's going on here, these are your rules. Uh so when we're talking about things that we may want to think about and I definitely agree um should be change of shall when it comes to the lural boundary public hearing. Um, you guys set the rules here. So, this isn't going to be something that's going to kick back to wetlands again because they've looked this over for months and months now. They're they're done with

064it. These were their suggestions. Take them or leave them. They're, you know, they're done with the discussion. >> But if there are any changes that we want to see in town, now is the time to talk about them. Um, so I mean, I think we need to address, again, to Sleman Perez's point, we need to address the if we're going to have multiple vessel lifts, right? It was easy when you had one boat lift and one jet ski lift because the biggest jet ski lift we've all seen is two. So that there there was our three vessels. If we're going to change that and change the wording and I guess the intent here was to have two boat lifts, right? Was that the reason wetlands wanted to make this change? >> And and keep in

065mind no change is made to the maximum of three vessels that would still hold. So if somebody was applying for a permit and doing it the right way, they would still need to comply with that rule. they would still need to comply with the no more than 50% short coverage rule. And all those issues are presented to wetlands uh typically on a survey. Uh so it could be measured out and everything could be looked at before a permit is granted. Uh so it's not like wetlands is just taking the applicant's word for it or anything else. Now it's obviously more problematic if someone just drops four or five boats in multiple boat lifts and everything else. That's a clear enforcement action that we would that I would pursue. Um, you know, there there's always a,

066like I said, a balancing act in weighing the the public good versus the time and everything else that needs to get done, but something like that would get gone after. Kenny, would it make sense to take the language rather than changing all of this to vessel lifts, which again the intent was to allow someone to have two boat lifts, to simply change the language to be you can have two boat lifts or you can have a boat lift and a jet ski lift. And that way we eliminate the possibility of having two double jet ski lifts and having the possibility of four. >> Yeah, that that could work too. that would just simplify all this and you know and not allow for this vessel to be so what's that >> a little less nebulous. >>

067Well, you know because if you watch Facebook there are people trying to rent docks all the time, >> right? And I mean and I mean if I wanted to rent my waterfront, right, to pay my taxes, then I could take somebody else take somebody up on it. But at some point in time, you know, when you when you look at the lake over time and you look at carrying capacity, and I've talked about carrying capacity in the before this and other lakes are looking at it a lot. The carrying capacity, it's like how many more I mean I mean I I I like my cars, right? I got a lot of them drive one a day. It's like my boats. We usually just use one a day, but sometimes there's more than one. And then

068the boats coming on the lake from the boat launch and marinas and stuff like that. So, I think you have to be really careful on how many because people are people love Highland Lake and they should, right? Because it's it's we got we've never been shut down because of the water quality throughout the state. So, people try to get on this lake any which way they can. And I think when you're a person that's on the waterfront and you are assessed, your property values have been assessed for the privilege of being on the waterfront. the market value. I I think that the carrying capacity has to be looked at and that's why these lural boundaries why I'm talking about it enough. It it's understand this is not for me. The latoral boundaries are not really

069going to affect me at all. We have 92 feet of frontage. We got lucky. My father bought in the right location in 1963. We had 92 feet. Same as the marina. So, I'm not talking about loral boundaries for me. I'm not talking about, you know, buoys for me or anything for me. But I do see the coes. I watch the coes, you know, when you drive by the coes and the amount of people that are on top of each other in the coes and especially the curve on the cove and how they can come out and how many people are on that 10-foot latoral boundary and you know and and I think those people need to be protected as well, you know, in terms of trying to make it, you know, give people relief or

070give people help. I mean, if you're a new owner, you you know that going in. That's something you know going in. But if I'm somebody that's been there for a long time and all of a sudden somebody new comes in and wants to now come all the way out across the 10 foot right onto my property line with things swinging over. How did that become fair to me, right? To to be there for a long time. So I think those kind of things if you look at them from you know everybody's point of view not just an applicant's point of view but longtime people that have been there long time you know everybody that's you know gotten along in the in a cove together you know over time um you know those kind of things

071I think are important to look at you know and and it's only because I've you know been there my whole life listening to all the people that came before me that have taughked talked about all these issues over time, you know, with Shirley's comments and everybody's comments. So, I I think, you know, wetlands in terms of their desire to simplify things and and give them some help. I think the topics are fine. I don't have any issues with any of the the stuff you brought up. I just think it all needs to just be refined more. I like Paul's suggestion to be more definitive with um what's what's there or not because because as much as you say that you're going to go do enforcement, right? No, I'm serious. I mean, you you could get

072that big offer tomorrow, now you're gone again. And that's what we've experienced here. We've had people here, then they go, then they're here, then they go, then they're here, there they go. So, your intention may be to do that, but it's not going to happen. And then the other thing that happens too is what people are paying for jet skis and boats these days you know you boats pontoon boats 60 $80,000 the boats that are sitting in front of the marina right now for wake surfing and stuff 140,000 at minimum >> 225 for the one that's across the street. >> Yeah. So, but but that you know people go on or people have their boat like that and they come on to the lake and they're expecting >> I just paid this and I want

073I want to be here and you want to be helpful and you want that to all be nice, right? But at some point in time it it doesn't fit anymore. It can't fit anymore because it just because it's about size, you know? It's about size and there's only so many feet for neighbors. There's only so many many feet for boats, you know. So, how how do you do it? You know, it's a it's a tough thing today. Well, to to kind of summarize, I think what we've been talking about is um changing the language for the lifts. Back to boat and jet ski. So, we can we can define it. You can have two boats or a boat and a jet ski lift. um can't have two jet ski lifts unless they're unless they hold

074less than three jet skis. So you could have a double and a single, but you can't have two doubles, right? So you put that language in there. Um lal boundary making the public hearing a requirement if it's inside the 10 ft as opposed to if it's deemed. So change that language. um some sort of language for relief if a property owner needs it. >> But what would the relief be? >> Well, there's lots of opportunities for that. I mean, I can't name them, but people who have dock issues or have float issues or have, you know, >> but what would they be that's not already accommodated? >> Would it be somebody could take a dock from 40 feet to 50 feet, 60 feet? Would it be somebody that could have a trampoline that's not 15

075feet in width but 20? >> He has like other municipalities have language in there so that if you have limitations on depth or you have hazards or you have obstacles what have you that aren't accounted for that at least I mean again should we have any ordinance in this town that doesn't allow for relief? Well, in my opinion, yes. >> Okay. >> Because otherwise, why have the rule >> because we have zoning rules, but we have relief through ZBA if there's a requirement. >> But but I guess I'm saying that I just like to know what on the water. So, you buy a piece of property, you have a big rock in front of you. Does that is the relief now that you could go to the right of the rock or the left of

076the rock in front of your neighbors and put your dock out? >> Is it because if you only have 15 feet on your water and now you have your dock and then you want to put your boat on the end of it so you don't go off to the 10 feet. Now you get to be out 70 feet instead of >> I think it depends on the individual circumstances, Candy, but to think that of the all the docks and moorings that go around the lake, there's not some issues that need to be addressed, I think would be silly. >> Well, I don't know. I've seen most of the lake multiple multiple multiple times and I think that I think there's already leeway in here. I think that people have already that >> there's leeway for

077the latoral boundary. There's no leeway for anything else. So people can't get relief if they need it. >> Well, there are things that have happened that are not allowed in here that are on the water. >> Well, if there's things that are happening that are not allowed in here, that's an enforcement issue. That's not a that's not the way the ordinance is written issue. I'm just saying if we're redoing these ordinances now, we should be careful to put in things that need to be taken care of and this should be one of them. I don't think there's any ordinance or regulation in town that a property owner can't come before either a board or whomever the person may be to request potential relief. And again, we all have different opinions. That's what we're going to

078vote on at the end. Since you guys are talking about this and I have nothing to do with the lake and you know that, but I got a call today from a resident who's had a problem with jet skis in their cove for a month. So, they called today to say that they were on Amazon and they found no wake buoys. So, her and the neighbors were wondering if they could just take three or four of these, plunk them out in the water on cinder blocks to create a no. And I said, "I don't know anything about it, but call the land use department because believe you can just be put in >> they they'd have to go to wetlands to get permitting for it." >> Well, that would also be a state no wake

079zone. It would be also to be approved by the state >> and that's an enforcement issue that of a different type, right? That's getting the police vote out more often. And you know, the police boats kind of out there on a Saturday afternoon to some degree and a little and and pretty good about being out there for quiet time, but for the rest of it, it's it's kind of a free-for-all. And we >> her problem is there's a couple jet skis that come into this cove and they come within 10 ft of the docks and police were sitting there into the docks and >> so they wanted to put buoys out where he's and I said, "Yeah, you can't you definitely can't do that. You need to check." >> I mean I mean that's why

080people have the markers out there now, right? To be fair to them, why the markers appear on Highland Lake all over the lake is because people, the boat drivers are not respecting the distance from shore. So you have 100 feet for boats, 200 feet for jet skis. And we hope that wake surfers stay in the middle, right? Is that seems to be the um I >> I told them to put a camera up because apparently these two come in so close they actually cover the boat and the dock with water when they turn, >> right? Well, and they and they do. I mean, that's what happens. But, you know, to Paul's point, if there were tickets, then maybe it would stop. But people are out there. And that's why a lot of things that's why

081we talk about all these things we do because there are a lot of little issues that may by by themselves are not one thing. By themselves are nothing, but then you get multitudes of them. And you know, it'll be cold soon and then we'll have ice fishing. Any other comments or questions for Jeff? >> Okay. So, just to recap, I will provide uh some new proposed language uh for you. We're going to change back to boat and jet ski. So, that electrical change will uh reinforce the fact that there's still a three watercraft limit. Uh come up with the proposal of relief language. And there are some towns that have similar things in their regulations already. So we'll try to model something there. Uh change the may to shall when it comes to latoral boundary

082encroachment. Um change the 50 foot from shorefront to 40 foot for the swim flow. I think you're I think you're dead on with that. That's how I'm reading it, too. So it's just a conflict that didn't get picked up. on and I think that covers it. Did I miss anything >> for the rental situation? So that's covered in both the zoning regs and the dock and moing ordinances, right? You can't rent out your dock space. That is illegal from correct from from two different perspective. >> Correct. That would be considered a marina and uh it is hard rule in the zoning regulations that there is only one marina allowed on the lake >> and I think it's addressed in here with the number of boats allowed and also um how long they could be there.

083So >> it is and uh I don't have this part committed to memory but there's also uh an issue that if you are going to you could rent your house that has a dock and obviously the renter would be allowed to use the dock for their rental period. >> Uh but if you have a standalone dock and no house that goes with it, you are not allowed to rent that by itself. >> And you can't rent out your extra space. If you had if you had one boat in and a and you're allowed three or three vessels, right? Um, you can't rent out the other two spaces. >> Correct. >> All right. So, I will see you folks at the next meeting with some new proposals here and some uh additional information on the fee

084structures. >> Thank you. Perfect. >> Thank you very much. Lake is our greatest resource. We need to protect it. Moving on to item number C, discussion on the proposed ordinance changes to notices number 87. Uh at the last meeting, the proposal to amend charter chapter 87 of notices. Article two, notice of hours of town offices 87-4 intent. The board of selectments seeks to ensure that all citizens, taxpayers, and visitors of the town of Winchester have equal access to town offices and that any changes or additions to the hours that all town offices are open, including the town clerk and the registar of voters are clearly posted on the town website, the town notice board and all town social media and public notification accounts at least five working days prior to the change or the addition

085to hours of operation unless greater notice is required under state or federal law. Such notice shall clearly state when the extended or changed hours shall commence and end. 87-5 submission of proposed changes to the town manager publication. The town manager shall be responsible for approving and publishing notices of all changes or additions to the hours at any town office is open. Town employees and elected officials shall not transact or process any business outside of the hours that have been approved and published in accordance with this ordinance. 87-6 effect on adopted regulations to ensure equal access to town offices to all citizens, property owners, and visitors to the town and to provide timely public notice of the changes or addition to ours in which the town business can be transacted. ensures that all citizens and taxpayers

086have the same opportunity to transact town business to vote and to participate fully as outlined in state statues and town charter. Anyone have any comments so far? Those are the changes that were requested to amend. >> Linda, you want to talk about last week? Do you want to bring something up? >> Uh, no. I thought we could discuss this. Uh it was brought to the last meeting by members of the uh the Democratic town committee because uh there wasn't sufficient notice that the town office was open for voters on for the referendum. So, um, the town or the the committee decided to come up with this, uh, chapter 87 notices and maybe have have the town attorney review it. Anyone any other? So, All right. So, nobody has anything. I will um >> Well, again,

087go ahead. >> Well, just by process, >> this was presented by people at public comment. >> So, do you all want to take something like this to to the or to the ordinance stage? >> Uh we're not at that. This would still be discussion stage. I would not consider this meeting number one. Um as we discussed earlier, >> but if we send it to the attorney ahead of it. Are we indicating that we are going to do it? >> Probably. So, we probably want to have all the discussions and set the ordinance as we would see fit before we would send it to the town attorney for approval. Uh, which would obviously before be before step one as well. Um, I do have some concerns with this ordinance and I understand the the effort behind

088it and and the reason why and yeah, we did kind of screw up with the posting of the hours on that Saturday. Um, but I also believe that we need people to have more access to town hall and the government and not less. And please don't let the assistant town clerk hurt me here when I say this, but in my opinion, the town hall should probably be open on Saturdays, you know, 8 to noon as well, because we are a bedroom community and people do travel an hour plus to work. When I worked in downtown Harford every day, it would take me 45 minutes to get to work. Coming home at 3:00, it could take me between an hour and 15 minutes and an hour and 45 minutes. tough to get to town hall if

089they're closing at 4:00 Monday through um Monday through Wednesday, Thursday till 6 and Friday open till noon. Um we should want more people to interact with government. Um that's neither here or there. You know, I'm I'm not saying that we need to have the town hall open on Saturdays, but I think that that would make a lot of sense to give more access to government. Um, especially since there's still some things that you can't do online. Um, you know, the five day notice for five working day notice for things. Um, we have a special meeting. We only need to post it 24 hours. Board of weapons meetings are posted 24 hours in advance. Um, generally if we're posting a special meeting, usually it's in a day or two and not where there's not a fiveday

090notice that can be given. Um, the section 87.5 that states town employees and elected officials. not transaction transact or process any business outside the hours that have been approved and published. As mayor, I speak and Candy knows this because she was mayor for several terms. We speak at a lot of special events throughout the town. Um some of these are at last minute notice. Um, following this ordinance, uh, in theory, I would no longer be able to present citations or special proclamations to recognize accomplishments outside of posted business hours. This would be event citations or proclamations. Uh, some that I've given so far this year, uh, appeared at four Eagle Scout ceremonies to recognize Eagle Scouts. I presented the Elk of the Year proclamation. Uh the Elks Club youth weekend in support of youth activities

091this year was outside of business hours. Um you know, I had some comments of the Laurel Ball that's outside of business hours. The Memorial Day parade, I spoke in the park. Um outside of business hours, we recognized 102year-old World War II Winston veteran Ted Marino. >> Moralda. Moralda. Um he was a founding member that drove the economic recovery for the town after the 55 flood. He owned several businesses in town. This ordinance uh wouldn't allow myself, other board members or the town manager in those activities. Uh town manager wouldn't be able to work on a Saturday. Uh he did some work while he was here at the Highland Lake uh meeting, the annual meeting uh last Saturday. Um what about emergencies that occur during now and working hours? A water main break, a sewer main

092break. Um this would apply to the fire marshall, fire chief, police chief, emergency management director, public works. Uh what are we going to do? >> Town manager. What are we going to do if there's a storm that, you know, hits at 2 o'clock in the morning? we can't go out and plow because we didn't post um extended hours. You know, all those things. I don't know if they were thought about ahead of time when, you know, we we put this um ordinance presented to us. Uh you know, town employees, police officers are considered town employees. What do we do there? You can only police Monday through Friday. um 8 to 4, 8 to 6 or 8 to 12. Um so there they're just a lot of we need open town hall for as a warming

093shelter or cooling shelter um emergency operation centers in this office when we have disasters or storms. And then, you know, my family or my girlfriend probably would enjoy this part, but we're not as elected officials allowed to do business outside of posted hours. How many times are we at a restaurant, somebody comes over to our table, we're at the gas pump, we're in the grocery store, we get either yelled at or someone asks us to help us with their problem, or they just come and complain on something that they saw on Facebook that may or may not be true. Um, you know, this theory would in theory this ordinance change wouldn't allow us. We would have to say, "I'm sorry. I I can't conduct town business with you right now." At the end of the

094day, we're government's 247 and we should have more access to the public and they should have more access to us. Those are my thoughts. Dr. So before we tear into this for hours and hours and hours, if the intent is to ensure that the town clerk's office and the registar voters office, any changes to that are published 5 days in advance. We could probably all support that one pretty easily. >> It's all the other restrictive language that you point out that was added to this. For what reason, I do not know. But it seems to me this came because of the uh the referendum and the time that was spent on the referendum and the Saturday opening that wasn't as published or well as published as it should have been. And that may be all

095we need to fix here as opposed to everything else that's here. I think that's >> And I'm wondering since we're opening up the door here for uh looking at changing ordinances, um maybe we had to look at the whole entire thing cuz I'm sure there's some stuff in there that needs to be cleaned up. >> You mean this particular ordinance or all? >> No, all ordinances. We're open the door that we're going to have to vote on this. When we went to e-code what two years ago, three years ago, they did review uh I believe all the ordinances and all the commissions reviewed their ordinances and did make some repairs and adjustments at that time. Um Katie, what do you remember about that? Any >> I remember lots of things >> about that particular >>

096Yeah, I do because I I I led that with Candace and Linda. We we we so we did the we did the e-code. So all the all the ordinances that you see online now used to be in a in a PDF kind of form that was online with the index um and then in a book in the town clerk's office. So one of the things we did was we put it out on e-code which now everybody can go look at but we did looked the e-code people looked through all the ordinances department heads like Todd said look through all the ordinances um to update what we could at the time. There were some that did not get updated at the time and and should have uh or should have come afterwards. Should have been done

097uh since then and none of the ordinances have really there are some in there that need to be done. Some need to still come out. Some are are still sitting there with inconsistencies and so yes, you you could do that. I would also say the charter as well. One of the things I know that Candace and I would talk about um you know before this last term ended was what could ecode rewrite our charter or is there a service out there consultant that could take our charter not to change the concepts in it or the intent in it but the language in it and the organization of it. Uh because the charter is all over and but the charter has to be approved by the public. So any charter anything always brings up some things

098are everybody wants and some things people don't. Uh so that's a whole other cake nut to crack. So for this as you were all talking um what if we just took because I believe that the intent this came from that day right the infamous day that is not going away anytime soon right now because this is here. Um, what if you just went into the town meeting ordinance because there's a meeting for town ordinance, right? Uh, so the town meeting ordinance for the annual budget says you do this at Gilbert, you do that at Gilbert or wherever you meet and you do this, you do, and you adjourn to referendum. What if at the bottom of that you just put a simple thing that all voting hours need to be posted whether it's 24 or

09936 hours in advance on the town's website and social media sites? >> How about if we take it one step further? What if we say we hand it off to referendum that the sorry but the town clerk's office will be open from 8 to noon on the subsequent Saturdays between the town meeting and the referendum then there's no question it happens every year and we give better access to people so they can vote. >> Well then I think extending that thinking out it wouldn't just apply to the annual meeting. There may be other referendums for things like if you wanted to fix the school roof for instance and you wanted to hold a referendum for that, would you extend and open the hours? So basically you you're what you're saying is pretty much following what

100the state has done in terms of uh voting outside the actual November 4th day and expanded voting hours. So would you so so that could happen? So, how many uh weekends between the town meeting and the referendum is it usually do you know is it two? >> There's usually two. >> Two. So, to your thinking, which I like, referendums, the two previous Saturdays or prior Saturdays to any referendum, town clerk's office will be open from 8 to 12 to allow for more flexibility in voting. >> So, are you talking about early voting, during voting? You talking about early voting? Well, if you go to the town's clerk's office, they were able to bring in um >> absentee ballots that day. Right. >> Right. >> I'm just trying to give I'm just trying to without >>

101over complicating it because I like to keep it simple. >> Oh, yeah. >> Without over complicating it, if we decided to say, okay, prior to any referendum, Tom Clerk's office will be able to accept and distribute absentee ballots for the two weeks prior to in any referendum. then it's in the ordinance. We don't have to worry about publishing it five days in advance and all that stuff. We can just make it part of the the voting routine. >> You'd have to clear that with Glenn and his office because um he's an elected official and we have no control over his hours. >> Well, I'm not saying I haven't worked out all the details yet, Troy, but just kind of spitball that speaks I would speak to a charter change on the town clerk's position just

102like Kanan is doing right now. in Kanan and Harford and Washington and all of them just change a town clerk to a under the town manager instead of under a political party. >> You know how hard that is to get done. That's like a constitutional amendment around but you changing the voting thing I believe would also be a charter constitutional amendment thing. I don't think that in terms of the voting times because it it says it adjourns the referendum on a date that the town meeting picks. So any adjustment to that requires a charter change opposed to the ordinance change. >> I would guess yes. >> So your suggestion, Candy, is to change the town clerk's position from an elected position to an appointed position. >> Yeah, we went through that three years ago. So

103until one of you guys brings it up, then I can't I can't make it pass because because there's too much opposition from some people that there was no need to bring it forward and make it a big disturbance in the town. So anyway, until everybody agrees that would be a good thing because then it wouldn't be political anymore. What happened wouldn't be political and all that. But my suggestion is just put it in the town meeting ordinance that there be notice which is what this int this and to make it simple >> is that there be notice of of of these meetings I mean of the if you're going to open up an office to do something because to be fair you know said that she would open up on a Saturday to get somebody

104a birth certificate or a death certificate right you know we don't want to stop that >> which this does >> and we you know what we you know and then uh and see Todd made a whole list of of all the things that somebody might want to do outside of the hours and stuff whereas a lot of this has came from that you know just post the hours I mean how hard is it you know you got a website you got social media just post it you know from the official place >> wouldn't it be nice and I realize the charter change is so difficult but wouldn't it be nice to just have it automatic that prior to any referendum that office could be open and it never has to be thought about again. You

105don't have to get it posted. You don't have to do all that stuff. >> Well, absentee or you know that. Well, you're talking about like you know more and that's fine with me. I mean our side usually is okay with more >> I would say. >> Yeah. usually more we could but there has to be but people push back now that the two are before uh election right there's two weeks is it two weeks two weeks of of expanded voting or >> 14 days I think >> we also had a unique situation >> so some people think that's some people think that's too long right so some people think that's too long but there hasn't been an adjustment so when you start to talk about if we're going to open up on a Saturday for

106absentee ballots or you going to open up on a Saturday for all voting. So now you're talking about absentees or you're talking about all voting. >> Well, we can we can come to terms with those details, but again thinking about >> Well, I think >> Right. Right. I mean, we have a unique town from the perspective that we have a lot of weekend our population goes up a lot on the weekends, right? Because of the lake and if and if and if like my next door neighbor wasn't here this weekend, but they'll be here next weekend. So to give them multiple weekends to potentially vote in a referendum, I think is fair. And again, we we have some uniqueness in this town that we should adapt to, >> right? But you are you talking about

107absentee ballot voting or you talking about regular voting because they're two different animals, >> right? >> I guess I'd have to think about that one. >> Yes. >> Because regular voting would be now we're doing early voting for for referendums and does that have to go into the charter and is that something that the state has to approve? Whereas if you're just talking about when the town clerk's office is open for absentee ballots, I think that's just a managerial >> town ordinance kind of thing that goes along with absentee ballots already. >> Well, I think these are all the things that we can put into further discussion on this to try to get to an agreement on what makes the most sense in our town given the uniqueness of our population. I would also say

108the town is also unique in other ways too, not just because weekenders because you know a lot of people that have things in trusts or LLC's etc are not able to vote um only people whose names are on properties um can vote. So that has reduced the amount of people in weekends and we can't forget about Winchester Center because there's a lot of weekend up there too. This isn't we we forget there's more parts to town than our little dot up there. You know, 444 acres. There tends to be a whole lot more over this way and we forget about that in many ways, but there are people like Bill. Um maybe he has to work and he's working all these shifts, second shift and he can't get here or has to take care of

109kids. So when you talk about who needs to vote and who needs to get there, everybody needs to get there, not just one certain sect of it. And the town meeting does allow and has allowed in the past for the date to be set and it was specifically set on Saturdays a lot of times. So all those people that are only here on weekends could vote, but it wasn't chosen this time even though there was a date to do it on. Yeah, I wasn't inferring that only the lake was what we had to accommodate. We have to accommodate everybody. And I think >> having something set prior to referendums would create fairness that we're trying to accomplish without restricting the town employees from working a minute of overtime, >> right? I think that's all people

110want is Yeah. >> the public notice. >> So, so should we um create a uh subcommittee to discuss the different aspects? Should it be absentee? Should it be a charter change? Should it be an ordinance change? Do you want to do you want to work on that? >> Me >> in a bipartisan fashion, Candy. You and I can work on that. >> Oh, are you volunteering with Candy to form a subcommittee? >> Yes. >> I am. >> Well, just say yes. >> Just say yes. >> There's no pressure. >> I didn't even I didn't write this. I didn't bring this. >> But you have a lot of good ideas. >> As a matter of fact, we should work. >> As a matter of fact, I said I wasn't bringing it >> just for now. >>

111I have experience is what I have. I just have experience over all these people that have taught me so many things. So like my my young young friend that tells me that all the where he learned how to take apart wine sellers, etc. got it from the encyclopedia of older men that he's learned from. I too have an encyclopedia from older men and women I' I've worked with. Right. So that's all I got. >> At the end of the day, I think we're all in favor of posting correctly hours of town hall. And I think that's what we should be striving for and not necessarily changing um this ordinance, but like you said, the town meeting ordinance probably makes the most sense. Just >> anything else? >> Nothing else. >> So, I'll meet with I'll

112meet with Paul and we'll we'll talk about what it means to have an ordinance change versus a charter change. >> I was just going to send you both home to do homework and bring it back to us. >> Isn't that what I always do? >> Well, there was no togetherness there at all. reaching out. >> Oh, good. >> Okay, thank you. >> Moving on. >> We don't want to get out too early without Paul here. >> Well, I told him we would >> Get out early >> because he might be watching. Yeah, Paul, I hope you're enjoying the music that you're hearing. >> Oh, he's not watch. He's on vacation. >> He said he would probably watch it much much later today. >> I thought he would watch it later after the >> people were

113reporting music still. So, I'm just saying a good time. >> Somebody did. Yeah. So, uh, moving on to item B discussion regarding changes to historic commission ordinance number 50. Uh, Linda brought this up last week that, um, or not last week, last meeting that we had some um concern with membership of the historic commission um, dating back to our favorite word, elector. Um after much research we actually did find in Ecode that we do have a dele a definition of elector um section 1708 definition of voters and electors as used in this charter. An elector means any person who is an elector of the town or a property owner over the age of 18 who jointly or severely is liable to the town for taxes assessed against him on an assessment of not less than

114$1,000 on the last completed grand list or who would be so liable if not entitled to a statutory exemption. That right there, I believe, certifies or clarifies that the current members um were both property owners in town but not voters. >> Um so they would be eligible to serve on the historic commission. >> Was it the historic or the cultural commission that we allowed non-electors on? >> I think the discussion was around the historical commission. But we allowed for non electors to be on one. >> I had thought that it was the historic commission but we could not actually find that in writing anymore. >> Cultural then >> cultural >> I think it was maybe >> see the proposed ordinance change said it was attached which and this was the motion that was used in

11524 to make this change for the historic >> maybe that's why If it was the cultural commission and we were just searching for the historic commission >> uh that could have been why it was not uh found but with the definition of elector um I believe it >> takes care of the issue. We don't need to make >> we were definitely when we expanded this we were trying to allow for more people to join historical >> commission. That's what this was all about. >> Yep. >> So I have a question about the historic commission while we're here. um 250th anniversary and I know that we were going to do things and the 250th started this past spring with Paul's ride and stuff. So I just wondered like I guess Billy the laser. >> Can you

116tell me what what's happening with the 250 >> just quick not real long? Well, I know that Hamish has actually reached out to other towns to see what they're doing, but you definitely we want to do something here special for that that day, whether it's decorating a building or something, you know, >> very nostalgic and >> proclamation that's supposed to be posted somewhere. >> Y >> So, it's nothing yet. >> Nothing really yet. All right. I'm just wondering because it u when I was reading through all this stuff trying to figure out what we were doing with this ordinance paper because I couldn't figure out like reading it where we're going and then I just remembered the 250th and I'm just curious as to if something had happened was going to happen because some things

117like field has done is done by and stuff. >> Hish he's the one that was in charge of it all for us. So >> hopefully he was spearheading it. >> Yeah. >> So is he off or on? >> He is on. He resed his >> when we cleared up his >> Any other questions. >> All right, moving on to item. >> E refunds is recommended by the collector of revenue. We have uh motor vehicle refunds of $729.14 and real estate values of $280.79 for a total of $1,9.93 in refunds. >> I move that the board of select and authorize the refunds recommended by the collector of revenue in the amount of $1,9.93. >> Second. >> Any other discussion? Who does that go to? Troy or >> to Troy? It don't matter. >> You don't get

118money for it, so it doesn't matter. >> All in favor? Unanimous. >> Watchman's comments and report. >> Nope. Citizens comments section >> cuz I lost my paper. I told you. Anyone wish to speak? >> Yeah. Okay. So, um I heard Selectman Perez say that there was a letter from Ellie Gun, who sits with me on ZBA, wondering why there was an action brought against John Pollock without it ever having been discussed with him ahead of time. Um, I would like to reinforce that question. Now, clearly he has chosen to resign. Um, but should he choose to sit on the ZBA again and make an application, I think that any allegations that are brought against him need to have evidence to support the allegations. Um, I haven't seen Selectman Hester or Selectman Marino at any of

119the meetings at ZBA and I've been there for a year. Uh maybe you're watching on YouTube, but the chair was sitting here and said he was only told three hours before the meeting that this action was going to be taken. So I just find it kind of shocking. I mean, Sleekman Marino was on the ZBA with him for five years or something and didn't bring an action then. So, I just want to say as somebody who sat on the board with him and uh believes that he did come in with knowledge of the of the applications, did think about the applications before him in a thoughtful way that he should be given a chance to come back should he decide he wants to. Um and I don't know what the norm is but if an

120action like that is taken I feel like the chair needs to know the person needs to know there there should be a discussion just like in the name of fairness. So that's all I have to say. >> So while we don't typically comment on public comments I'll address this one for you. So, as the person who's done so much research in the last several weeks in favor of your candidacy, first and foremost, the chair has no right, has no uh power whatever to remove or or uh discipline any of its members. That comes from the appointing authority which is sitting behind these up up here. We do the appointing in the event that there is an issue. Mr. Pollock was invited to come to a hearing where he could have defended himself and he could

121have heard what the challenges were or what the concerns were. And when I served with him for 5 years, I was in a board of selectman and had no way to remove him or to make any changes. So that's why for the five years that you mentioned, I had no ability to >> Why did you do it when you started? Why did you wait two years? >> Because I would hope you know what I'm not going to litigate his hearing in front of you >> who decided to have a conversation. Oh, it's right back here. >> So, as Candy has often done, if you're going to call people out directly, we don't typically respond, but when you come in here, and I know it's, you know, it's already election season. You know, we get letters

122every single meeting in this packet. And the first time in two years one's been read or discussed is tonight. Isn't that interesting? So, anyway, it's election season. We're we're it's already happening. So, we're going to enjoy this for the next several months. Just so you know, my name is not on. >> I'm not accusing you of it, Candy, but it's >> I'm just telling you. >> We've never We've never read a letter into record in the two years I've been sitting here. No, we have not. We have We get them all the time and they go through the packet. Nobody typically addresses it. >> I guess it's just a change tonight that I wasn't expecting. That's all. >> Well, if you want to go back, there has been things that have come into the record.

123>> Very few. >> Well, I think maybe I'll do some research tonight. >> Okay. We actually I did the record a couple of meetings ago. >> It's just it's just interesting. And it's funny in in Ellie Gun's letter, she goes um quote he does have a bias against the lake. That's in her letter. >> All right. So, I guess I wasn't going to say anything, but there's an applicant out there now, and this is third hand like thinks that now he's gone, the application's going to get approved. I think that's one of the dangers of all this when when you bring things to the board of selectmen and you start to remove commission members. >> You should watch the recording. >> I'm not I'm talking generally overall and we've had this discussion of all >>

124and I had the same issues with Mr. Pollock when I was on the board. >> Right. That that's that's fine. But I guess the the thing you're talking about is just instead of having it at the board of selectment for the first time, making it out loud and then inviting to him a hearing, I guess the question was why did you not tell him that you were going to talk about him before he talked about him? >> Well, I I I I'm not going to >> so in hindsight because you might be here next time. You might be here after November, right? And you will be here for the next seven meetings. So maybe when you do something or if this happens again, you'll be the wise one, right? To say maybe we should do

125this ahead of time and tell the person so that we can do it in a in a manner that there's somebody that sat for 13 years, right? >> We invited him to come speak on his behalf. That's what the >> That was after the hearing, but the meeting before that. >> All right, we're kind of getting off track since we are in citizen comments. >> You're right. We are, >> Mr. Herman. I don't have any comments relating to this. I uh just have a you know an off-the- cuff idea that's been on my mind for a decade and I just thought I'd might mention it. Uh which is that I you I learned to fly an airplane a couple of decades ago, right? I don't do it anymore. It's been 10 years since I've done

126it. But uh you know one thing I I it came to my attention was that um after closing Johnny Cake airport uh the uh FAA identified Lisville County as being having inadequately served by regional airports by regional airport and they were willing to spend 90% 97% of the cost to procure it and build a regional airport. So it occurs to me that it wouldn't do if there were land in Winchester and maybe Winchester Norfol Torington uh airplane author or airport authority or something like that if land could be identified and the uh FAA uh well I hope there's still enough people working at the FAA to do something but um you know if if they would pay 97% you know a regional airport here might not do uh the economy of our little region any

127harm. So, it's a thought uh maybe worth looking into. You know, I uh I'd participate in looking into it if if there was if there was interest. >> That's my thought. >> Somewhere flat. >> What's that? >> Somewhere flat. >> It landed on a solar farm on top of the pontoon plane up at the lake. Land on the lake. >> That's just actually that is an actual registry center right up the street. >> You're talking about a larger one, right? Are you talking about something, you know, >> Johnny cake size? >> Well, like a Johnny cake would have been not, you know, that that's got room or, you know, the airport in Planeville. Something, you know, something that might catch on, but having access to the area, um, you know, >> what was the economies

128of Johnny Cake, though? >> What's that? >> What was the economies of Johnny Cake? >> Johnny Cake was small, but the FBIA wanted to make it, you know, little little stronger. Um, but the gentleman who owned it, uh, really, you know, didn't didn't want to do anything. Wanted to close it down. So that's what happened to Johnny Cake. But the the the federal government was ready to come in there and spend 90% to to make it uh uh something. It could be something like Robertson airport, you know, but a regional airport. Um you know, might bring some business in some identity in uh anything. >> The train like the train. >> The train from up from Waterberry. My god. You know, why not? You know, from >> ripped all the tracks off. >> We did.

129Well, the tracks are there, but the the line is there, but the tracks are in disrepair, right? It's not the case. >> No, there's there's a track that whole new rail station. >> It goes towards it, but it doesn't go any farther. >> It stops behind Kmart. >> There used to be. >> They tore all the rails out to Kmart >> Church Street. Is there any interest in talking about a regional airport? Maybe with surrounding towns, you know, I would certainly participate. >> Cog, you bring it up with a cog. >> Absolutely. >> You could do that. I don't know. I don't know if we're on friendly terms with some of the other cog towns. >> Somebody's interested, you know, >> but it makes sense to >> Farmington's got a little Well, maybe you should

130look at the top maps. >> That's that would be an approach if if there's interest in doing it, you know. Uh we look at the see what could be leveled off here somewhere regional seapport airport. >> There's probably um anything that brings people andor revenue to the town, there's always interest. Okay, guys. That's it. All right. >> Anyone else wish to speak? >> Select comments and reports. >> I got something. I don't know if I missed this or if anybody else said this. Um, but I think, um, Mr. Welcome needs to be congratulated for his years of service with the park and recck department. Um, somebody told me he's been doing this for 60 years. Is that correct? >> Probably. >> I mean, that I mean, that's a great accomplishment. That's a lot of work

131for >> So Park and Rex have have got a little memorial platform and gave him a letter and had a little Jim Jim requested that he didn't want they wanted to call him in do this and Jim's like no no no no Jim's one of those guys >> is he finally >> I did I'm done. >> You're welcome. >> He did retire. He's done. >> Yeah, he's I think he's got If he's not done, he's got a couple more weeks because there was a delay on onboarding >> uh with the new applicant. So he volunteered to stick around a few more weeks >> to kind of hold hands with this guy to to because again like Jim said, there's certain pipes you got to kick. There's certain wall plates you got to whack with a

132hammer and to get the fountain going. And >> he he left up two notebooks like that. >> I'd just like to recognize him because I think that's a great accomplishment for somebody that put that much time in service for our town. >> Absolutely. So, and I did re receive an email from uh from a neighbor up the road that wanted to thank public works and those crew and all that for uh mowing and taking care of new field roads because I believe they missed the last pole. So, everything was bad and they come up did a nice job, trimmed everything back, mowed the sides of the roads, cleaned the roads up. So, >> it's paved. >> No. >> Oh, >> clean clean the sides of the road. And >> they they were all chomping at

133the bit. did take the time to send me out a letter. Want to thank >> this. >> Thank them. Other comments. >> Delighted to read in uh Chief Suchi's letter that the architects are beginning their feasibility study on the Bank of America building as a police station. And when you look at the conditions based on the last disaster that happened downstairs, it's none too soon. So, I'm excited to see how that uh how that study comes back. Anyone else? Make a motion to adjurnn. Is there a second? >> Second. All in favor. >> Good night. See you in August.