12-1-25 Groton Board of Education Curriculum Committee Meeting

001All right. Good evening. It's Monday, December 1st, uh, 2025 at 6:26 p.m. and I am calling the meeting of the board of education grown board of education curriculum meeting to order. Um the uh first item or the second item on our agenda after the call to order is um to review the November 3rd, 2025 meeting minutes. Um so would anyone like to make a motion to accept the minutes? >> I can't do that because I didn't read them. I I haven't had access to my computer for a long time. All right. Um All right. So, we don't have a motion to um to approve the minutes. Um but maybe we can talk about any talk about the minutes. Um because I I just had a couple of comments. [snorts] Um but um does anyone else

002have any comments on the minutes? I guess that would be you, Mike. Yeah, one comment I have is just looking back um in in the agenda, this is a November 3rd meeting. Um if you look online, we've got the agenda, you know, the 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 points. Uh but then there were um uh presentations made and uh and that that material isn't on um isn't in the minutes and it's not in the agenda. It's not like there are any links or anything. So I I guess since it's not in the agenda, the way to put those um powerpoints or whatever those slides would be to append them to the minutes. Um that that's one thing. And then um and then to find an appropriate way to um um give the information

003that was emailed to us in the the supplemental handout um too. But but basically, you know, get the supporting information in in the record. >> All right. I I would support um both of those. I think that the presentations um we've had some really good presentations and obviously um somebody can go back and watch the video but if the slideshow of that presentation is available the PowerPoint screens um we should just attach them in the meeting like we do for the board meetings and is done for the you know for other you know for uh policy and and the business meetings and stuff. So, um I would support that. And yeah, I mean I know in that meeting we talked about um having some of the um some of the data um from the scores

004in there um where we can um you know you know as while protecting student privacy. Um so and I believe we talked about that in the in the meeting on November 3rd. Um, so if we could if we could have some some some kind of detail into that. Um, do you know what we're talking about, Amarie? >> I do. I can share with you the presentation that was made by Principal Brown, but I cannot share with you the share publicly the information from the supplemental handout. The supplemental handout was not referenced during the meeting. Um, and as you know, um, I have some serious concerns about student data privacy. Um and there are some very strict rules about student data privacy that I have um looked into since um since that meeting um that I

005can share with you at a at another point but um I am basically not allowed to post that information. >> All right. Yeah. I was talking about some version of that information um to get the um information across in a way that can be done while while um because I think that you know we did discuss um you know we did discuss some some you know scores and stuff and just some general categories a way of categorizing it or you know making categories um or something like that that where we could u maintain student privacy um while also you know showing some of that that data. So um maybe we can talk about that uh separately and just meet on that but um I would like to see at least something about that um you

006referred to in the meeting minutes. >> Yeah. And that's what Principal Brown did if you recall from his presentation. He did things um by category or by subject rather than um by specific course. So happy to um happy to link that presentation and we can begin doing that you know moving forward like we do for the board meetings. Um surprised that um you know obviously we we know that I work with an executive assistant who does that. So I probably was not specific with her and and asking her to do that in the same way that we do the board meetings and I will make sure that I'm more um specific in asking her to link those those presentations moving forward. We'll make sure that that's done. And uh yeah, I think that that's very

007easy for us to do. >> In in this instance, I think the easiest thing with those presentations is is just to have them appended to the minutes. Um and and maybe in other cases as well. Um, as far as the supplemental handouts, um, in terms of, uh, freedom of information be because they were shared with us as a committee, um, they are subject to FOI. Um, but I think but but regardless of that, um, I think the extra information that that supplemental handout gave as as well as detailing by class and I understand the numbers per class are too small um, probably, but um, it gave that distribution, you know, for instance of AP scores like 1 through five or IB, I think 1 through 7. And that was additional information, I think, that could

008be captured in a in a summary. For instance, with the the IB courses, um you know, there's high level and standard level. Just have that 1 through seven and just put the count or the percentage or whatever you will just for all the classes, all the high levels grouped together, all the standard levels grouped together. Um and then for the AP there were already those um categories in the the presentation but um and and keep those categories and just give us the you know the number of ones or the percent of ones, twos, threes, fours, uh fives there. There's um the ECE I think there's not um as much need for additional information on that because it's pretty pretty clear. the main points were were very very clear uh from the presentations themselves but that

009that gray distribution is is is helpful not just the above threes for instance for the AP. >> Yeah. So that report the supplemental handout did not have any it only had AP information if I recall did not have any IB or EC information. >> It had IB as well. There were two separate documents. Yeah, I think >> I don't I don't I don't recall that, but I I can go back and look >> unless >> I don't Mr. Mr. Brown specifically presented all of the information like a comprehensive look at the performance, but I believe that that um that supplemental handout only had AP. >> I I have it here. It it we had two supplemental handouts and one one and one from >> Oh, one had the IB that was separate. Okay, thank you

010for reminding me. Yeah, but maybe we can um just meet and find out a way that um can be, you know, like cognizant of the law, but also get some of that information out. Um and then >> so and one one one further thought is is that that if we are thinking that that distribution is okay to put in that could easily be written in um to to the minutes um you know just as a it could be a short table or it could be a you know it probably is a short table honestly for for each one. >> Well let's let's speak afterwards so that um I'm not replicating the presentation. No, this that's right now what it what it kind of sounds like. That's what you're asking for. >> Uh I'm not asking

011for that because the presentation didn't include the grade distribution. It included uh grades above a certain threshold. Uh it may have included an average grade for one of the categories, but it didn't include that grade distribution. I think that's really important information uh to to have. >> All right. Um so um so the presentations including something on the grade distribution on AP and um IB and then I also made some um comments about um you know what to give people examples of what um of how successful we are in these in these classes um being accepted at Yukon specifically. Um and I think the numbers I gave were um uh I don't have to give the exact percentage but we'll say less than 10% um would have been acceptable credits towards IB approximately 25% of

012acceptable credits that would that um for AP and then I think it was 95% for ECE where they would be transferable to Yukon for All right. And then we can just put that on the um Is there is there any other comments on the minutes? >> No. >> All right. Right. So, we'll just put that on the um on the next curriculum committee to to go over these minutes again. Um all right. So, with no no further discussion on the minutes, um let's move on to review of the honors and advanced level credit quality points. Um so, we have um and please correct me if I'm missing somebody, but Matt Brown, Carita Hajj um are on the webinar in addition. And I'm just going to say right now, I should have done this at the

013beginning, who's here, but um Mike Whitney, Dr. Andrea Arian, and myself, Adrienne Johnson. Um and Anmarie Mancini, if I didn't say that already. Is there anyone else on the meeting? Amarie, >> Amy McKenna is >> All right. And Amy McKenna. All right. >> Thank you. Yes, I'm here. >> All right. Um so, who's who's gonna start off this? I think we have a presentation for this, correct? Yes. And if you give me a second, I will share it. And [clears throat] I think this is going to be a joint effort in terms of presenting. Oops. Okay. Hopefully everyone can see this. >> Can I get a yes or >> no? Great. >> Thank you. All right. So, um just going to start off by saying that I've worked with the high school team on um

014on looking at per the this uh I'd say per some members of this committee's request, we looked at the high school team and I looked at advanced level credit and um I guess you would call them quality points, the scale that exists currently at the high school and we as a result of that we uh developed this presentation and the graphic here on the front page is from the program of studies. Obviously, that is a key document in creating this presentation. So, the agenda today, we're going to be going over the quality point scale that currently exists at Fitch High School. We are going to look at um and you know, obviously as a as a part of this um you know, preparing for this presentation, we looked at IB schools in Connecticut in terms

015of their quality point scales. We looked at other high schools in southeast Connecticut because we need to kind of look at how our students are being compared, not only other IB schools, but other schools that are similar to ours here in Connecticut comprehensive high schools. Uh we do we'll do a little summary at the end. And um because the referral tracker is on the agenda, that's something that's separate from this presentation, but I included as as a slide, so we'll look at that later on. So let me um need to kind of Okay. So the existing quality point scale at Fitch High School looks like this. All honors courses are given an additional 0.5 weight. All AP, IB, and ECE courses are given an additional 1.0. So you can see here I've cut and pasted

016the um what this looks like for students as they take additional I guess you would say advanced level coursework at Fitch High School. And I'm going to um I'm going to invite uh Principal Brown or any of the other members of the Fitch leadership team to make any comments here um on anything that's on this slide. I I think you you did a good job. I don't know if you guys have any questions on the slide, but I I think it's pretty pretty clear. >> Okay. >> I had a very quick one. Um the ECE, that's early college experience that's associated with with Yukon. I know that with a increase in dual enrollment, we're getting some ECSU courses, which is great. Um would that count in that same category? Basically, is that really dual? >>

017That's a good question. Yeah, that's actually should say dual enrollment. Actually, it's not just ECE, but also those those classes from Eastern and any CCP or any other college level credit. >> Thank you for asking that. So, um, one of the things that we did was we started to look at, um, other districts to see what are they doing, um, just to make sure that our students aren't getting any advantages or disadvantages, I guess you would say. Um, and so the first thing that I did was look at what are other schools that have IB programs either with school within a like IB school within a school which is what Fitch is or full IB schools. There are two schools that are full IB schools and those are that's the Connecticut IB Academy otherwise known

018as SIBA that's located in East Harford and the Academy of International Studies which is a crack magnet school. And so you can see here, SIA is a, as I just mentioned, a full IB school. Um, they have courses, their courses, uh, for 9th and 10th graders, which are their MYP courses, get a.5 quality point rating. Uh, while their DP courses get a 1.0 right now. Um, well, not even right now. That school has been open since 19 I think 999. Um and there is no current distinction or there's no distinction between the IBHL and SL levels. Um either at the uh well at the DP level. Um the next well let me tell talk about the the other school that is a full IB school which is also a magnet school. It's the Academy of

019International Studies by CRE. Um also a full IB school. Uh also has a middle school component to it. Um their honors and and IBSL courses get a 0.25 25 quality rating while their IBHL courses get a 0.5 quality rating. Um the the there are three schools in Connecticut that have a with a what they call a school within a school program. Those are Valley Regional High School which is region four um consisting of Deep River, Essex and Chester. I'm sorry, Chester. Um their courses IB courses get a 1.2 two quality rating and there's no distinction between the IBHL and SL levels. Brian McMahon High School in Norwok. Um, their honors courses get a.5. AP and IB get a 1.0 with no uh distinction between the IB, HL, and SL levels. And finally, Guilford High School

020um honors courses get a 0.25. AP, IB, and ECE courses get a 0.5 with no distinction between the IB, HL, and SL levels. Does anyone have any questions on this slide? >> Yeah, I have a quick one. The I I'm familiar with IB, HLSL. There's some courses that are I guess just IB. Um is career pathways like another do they have HLSL2? I I'm just wondering if that's going to be another category of IB that consider. >> I Mike, I can answer that one. um the if they're in the career program then part of that component is taking IB courses and they may be uh HL um or SL but they would the courses them the program is different than the courses they you know as part of the program the career program they're taking

021IB courses if that makes sense you know they they're required to take a certain amount like four at least four IB courses but the courses themselves are all labeled HL or SL >> okay I thought maybe there are some IB classes that didn't have that HL or SL on it like like maybe theory of knowledge or something, but I'm not sure in that. >> Yeah, I'm not sure with with theory and knowledge what I mean it's I don't think it's an HL course. Yeah, it's just considered within Yeah, within the program. >> I believe it would be SL. But >> the next thing that we did was we looked at Southeastern Connecticut high schools because again, I think that um colleges look at those um not only what type of program you offer, but they

022also look at um high schools in your area when they're kind of considering a student. And so I went to the US News and World Report from 2025 that was released. It's usually released in April, late April, I think. And I looked at what are the um high schools that ranked above Fitch um to see, okay, what kind of programs, you know, what how do they um assign quality points to the students in um in their schools? Uh because I just wanted to see, you know, how that would impact our students. And so, um, I looked at, I believe, eight different schools. Yes, eight different schools that are ranked above Fitch currently. And, um, they are Marine Science, Lime, Old Lime, East Lime, and Stonington. And there are four or more on the other pages.

023So, Marine Science, which is a learn school, um, offers ECE and AP courses. And you can see how how they um, kind of assign quality points to their their students. Old lime looks like um obviously one of the things I learned here is that everyone does things a little different in terms of their quality point rate uh quality points and how they assign them and then also obviously their their scale their GPA scale. Um you can see you would see anything ranging from you know maybe like a 5.0 scale to you know uh something like on the lower end might be like a 4.0. Um [snorts] you can see here East Lime um 0.15 um Stonington uh you know is more on the conservative similar to what Fitch does like a 0.5 versus a 1.0

024know and the four [clears throat] high schools on the next four high schools are Hading Hadam Killingworth which is reason otherwise known as region 17 um that should probably say honors.3 I apologize for missing the decimal point there um you've got Daniel Hand in Madison similar this kind of similar to what Fitch has except that freshmen don't get um any weighted courses at all um you've got Westbrook uh with a 1.05 05 versus a 1.10. And um Waterford High School, which offers, of course, standards, honors, and and advanced level courses for AP, ECE, and and CCP, which is um if you're taking a course at one of the community colleges, um in this school, adds quality points to students taking the honors and advanced level courses in um only the five academic areas or core

025academic areas, English, math, social studies, science, and world language. Does anyone have any questions about the southeastern area Connecticut high schools? Again, I only looked at eight, but these eight rank above Fitch according to US News and World Report in 2025. I just want to uh clarify because Cara just just shared the um the theory of knowledge class does not have a distinction between HL and SL. It says T is part of the IB core alongside with the extended essay. Um or I'm sorry, theory of knowledge is neither SL or HL. It is a core requirement of the program and I believe we've been we've been awarding the 1.0 because it's an IB course, not the distinction. Thanks. Thanks. Yeah, thanks Matt. So in summary, looking at Connecticut high schools, there are five schools in

026Connecticut that offer the IB diploma. Of the five, three are larger comprehensive high schools that offer the IB diploma as one option for students and the remaining two are full magnet IB high schools. All offer advanced level credit or quality points to students who enroll in the IB courses. and only one of the five makes a distinction between the IB higher level or what's known as the HL and the standard level courses and that's the CRE magnet school. Um and then I examine the program of studies for eight uh of the high schools in southeastern Connecticut as identified by the US world and new new uh US News and World Report from April 2025. All eight offer some combination of advanced college prep and standard level courses for students. None of the eight make a

027distinction between AP, ECE, and CCP courses. All of these courses count for um each school as the same type of advanced level credit. All eight schools recognize honors courses by low uh by awarding it to lower quality points than advanced level credit like AP or ECE. And most of the schools vary in the way that they award quality points. For example, some may um award uh 0.25 25 points versus 0.5 that should say 0.25. That's the end of this particular um presentation regarding quality points um at Fitch and um a comparison of other high schools. Can either myself or one of the uh members of the Fitch leadership team answer any specific questions regarding this? And I'm gonna stop sharing right now. >> Yeah. All right. Thank you for that. Um >> um I will

028um go to Mike or Andrea first if either of you have any um questions that you want to bring up? >> No. >> I guess one question I have is does Fitch currently offer like a a standard level version and a higher level version of the same course? It seems like to me maybe there's not that choice if you're taking a English to pick one or the other. >> So you're you're right. Most subject areas there isn't there isn't a choice. Um for English, for example, right now we only offer the higher level um for that that 12th grade year. Uh math, we usually do offer a higher level and a standard level. Um this year we did not run for the the current juniors we did not run a higher level course this year

029because of enrollment numbers but most of the subject areas um actually Anna I'm going to piggyback on that a little bit. Uh there are also some subject areas where um there's the some some take the test at the HL level and some take it at the SL level like uh sport science. >> Oh yeah, thanks. I remember that about the the sport science. Um >> so I guess I could I can see an argument because you know they do distinguish between higher level and um standard level. So, I can see why that one school does that. So, I can see that maybe being worth exploring, but I also want to be careful about making that an impediment towards um people um taking um those those uh standard level courses. Um >> I think uh I'm

030sorry. >> No, no, that's >> okay. I think, you know, cuz we we totally like when we went into this, we we started looking cuz we understand the concern, you know, that they're they're at the same level, but we felt like you you're almost going down a rabbit hole of like where do you stop? like is a ECE course more, you know, rigorous than the IB the standard level court, you know, then you'd really just I think it would be really hard to determine how and when and why you stop at different levels if you start doing that is is is I think the concern if that makes sense. >> It it does it start it can get very granular. That's kind of what happened as we started looking into it and then we started

031looking at other other schools and so forth. >> My other question is um I I remember this now. I went to high school a long time ago um but I vaguely remember that I had a class rank or maybe not a class rank but um um a GPA based on unweighted and then weighted GPA. Um do we do current transcripts have that like availability? Not necessarily for the class rank, but just to to show both GPA. >> We do show both. Yes. And I'm I'm pretty certain it's on the transcript, but we definitely uh share both. Yeah. The the weighted and the unweighted. >> Yeah. Because that's great because I mean, you know, the most important thing is that uh students are taking the right courses for them. And if they're excelling in the right

032courses for them, I think that should show up in their transcript. not just by the grades, but like kind of an overall easy to capture metric so they can um kind of um put their show their best foot forward as they're um applying for things. >> Mike, I can confirm that the bottom of the transcript shows both. >> That's great. Thanks. >> Yep. >> All right. Um I I guess I I'll go now. So, the reason um the reason that we're talking about this is because I just have concerns that some of the IBSL classes are um you know, are you know, what seems to me as an outsider who has never taken one or um you know, so I I haven't sit through this, but but some of the IV IBSL classes and maybe

033some of the other IB like um you know, I'm not sure about theory of knowledge, but um but certainly like the my project that that's probably going to be weighted as an IB. credit correct or >> no no the MIP project is it only it's only referring to the DP level classes diploma program classes not not my >> All right well thank you for that um but um but you know we've been told that you know the board's been told many times that um that some of the lower level classes are more like um honors level classes um in their rigor um and that's kind part of the reason that we don't have honors level classes in in some subjects or or don't have many honors level classes in some subjects. Um so um the

034the easiest one to go to though um like a class and is is in math, right? The IBSL math. Um, I did I did a little bit of research today and um and looked at what it would equate to in college and it looks like it's a basically a pre-calculus or an algebra 3 kind of you know a little bit lower level class where I think AB or AP you're pretty much into calculus by the time you get to college level classes um you know ECE or AP or or the HL classes. So that class um in particular and and if we go to Yukon for instance because they actually um I I looked at five different colleges um to figure out what colleges were actually accepting um for these um for high level and

035standard level classes. So, I looked at Yukon, Eastern Connecticut, Central Connecticut, uh, University of Rhode Island, and then University of New Hampshire, thinking that those are kind of the bigger I'm I'm guessing that a large percentage of our our our students make it into those those class those schools. Um but um but basically none of the schools outside of Yukon accept any HL classes for actual um equivalent um college level. Um so they don't accept them as as you know offsetting credits that their schools offer. Um they like all of those schools accepted HL classes. Um and and I know uh Mr. Brown, what you were talking about as you know going down a rabbit hole because um you know I one of my children took um I think it was SL chemistry 12 and

036I think the prerequisite for that was AP chemistry. Um and it was an extremely difficult class. Um so just because it's an SL doesn't mean that it's easy. Um I think mostly it means that it's um one year versus two years. Um, but a lot of times they are a little bit easier. Um, and you know, in even where we go to the Yukon that accepts that um that math SL, you know, that that's a little bit lower, they require um that you to to take that as an actual credit for college. They would require that you also have gotten the IB diploma, which is a very small percentage of the IB kids in Fitch, and and that you scored a seven on the test. um you know on the IB you know exam at

037the end. Um so so basically Yukon will take it but it makes it very unlikely that that you know that that class is going to actually pan out into a Yukon credit. And the reason um the reason that I kind of went to and looked to see what colleges were doing is because we're offering um you know the the um continuing ed credits, the ECE credits, the AP credits and and the IB um certainly HL um because colleges will take it and we're we're offering them as you know to be the equivalent of college classes and it and it seems to me um that some of the SL classes and I'll I'll call out that math but maybe theory of knowledge cuz I couldn't find that anywhere um you know in Yukon or anywhere else

038that would accept that class and I and I have to assume that these colleges went in and looked at the curriculum to see if they felt it was rigorous enough to offset one of their classes. So, I feel like that, you know, I mean, it's one thing to um to compare to other high schools, and I appreciate the effort that was done in that. Um, but um but this is this is, you know, where the rubber hits the road. Do these these colleges actually trans or these classes actually, you know, are they as hard as a college class? And I think that at least with these these colleges, it doesn't seem like some of them are. >> Um I >> can I respond to some of that before I >> Yeah. Yep. Yeah, thank you.

039Uh I mean just just one thing is you know they don't accept the they don't give automatically award the AP credit unless you get a certain score as well. Um, so you know, you you still have to get a certain score in order to get the AP credit, right? Either a four or a five or it depends college to college. And then you also, you know, we also have like AP pre-calculus is now offered and AP intro to Cal, you know, you're getting certain college level course grades for for each of these are, you know, you're getting awarded a certain college credit. It's just I I think it's really really going to get very hard to you know then do we value ECE more than IB more than AP because they're automatically getting that credit

040just because of taking the class. Um I think that's why all these these schools really have a distinction of is it AP you know is it a college level course and that's what rewards the the weight. Um, I just don't know how we would we would differentiate each of the the different programs. >> Yeah, >> because yeah, I could, you know, we could make an argument that some of the ECE courses potentially >> are at the equivalent of that that IB math class, you know, like how how do we differentiate that? And I think that's a really challenging question to ask. I don't know how to answer it because I that's when we went into this, that's what we were looking at. All right. Well, where would that differentiation be? That was before we even

041started looking at other schools. >> Yeah. No, I understand that it's a um that it's difficult. And and just to be clear, like pretty much all of the colleges require um I think three and uh sometimes three, but four and fives on APs. Um and then I I found as far as IB, basically every college or all five of these colleges required a five or better. um Yukon was the one that made the distinction where sometimes they would just take a six and seven or sometimes um they would just take a seven. Um so they all have you know they all want the you know the score on the test as well as uh you know the cla you know as the level of class. Um, >> so I understand difficult, but um but my

042my concern is is that, you know, and I think that, you know, having kids that have gone through the system. Um, you know, they were they've kind of been told that, you know, you're going to have an or it's a little bit easier to get a higher GPA in the IB program because of some of these um these classes that really aren't as challenging. So, if you're in the if you're in the IB diploma program, you're taking all um you know, like what is that maybe six classes or maybe even seven would be IB at that at that college level where to h for a student to be able to handle that same amount of rigor if we were in AP for example or Yukon classes um would be, you know, very unlikely or would

043take a very special student to be able to to handle that same amount of that same course load. Um so that that's kind of my thought and and there's there's a few um things to consider here is because colleges um you know in addition to just looking at students grades they want to know where you are in the class. So that percentage really matters. um you know if you're in the top 10% or top 20% or top 50% um that where you end up in the percentage in the class is a I believe from my understanding of college admissions and and sitting in on lots of um lots of um you know uh seminars um you know when we go visit schools um they care about that and and the fairness um you know that

044we're basically at least in my opinion in favoring the IB program over the AP by allowing some classes that are really not quite as hard. Um, it just seems unfair to to some students. And then the other thing is in addition to just that, just the percentage, there's a significant financial advantage if you end up being um in the top, you know, two of the class, basically the top 1% of the class in the United in in Fitch. If you're if you're that number one or two students, then um I believe you have to apply, but you pretty much get accepted to Yukon tuitionfree all four years. Um is a program. So there's there's a big financial incentive to be at the very top of the class. Um, and and again, is it fair if

045a, you know, if a student just can't handle six AP classes, but an IB student can handle that amount of rigor in the IB because some of the some of the SL classes are really probably more of honors level. Well, I I think, you know, again, going back to let's say a you know, AP pre pre-calc, you know, that that might be pretty darn close to the standard level course. It's AP pre-calc and we're we're not, you know, I think we're we're not giving weight more so for AP versus IB. um when it has that AP in front of it. It's not just AP calc AB, you know, uh the the in the calculus class, you know, there we're expanding with all the AP club courses we're offering. Um so again, you know, you could

046make the argument that AP calc and our pre-calc and and that IB standard level class are pretty darn close. Um, you know, going back to the chemistry example that you gave, they take the AP class, their AP test, junior year, and then they're advancing their studies in in chemistry. I just honestly I think Can you guys still hear me? >> Hello? >> Yeah, you faded in and out there a little bit. >> Sorry, my internet just kind of kicked on and off. I don't know where I left off, but uh I honestly I you know like and I know we've had conversations before. I'd rather our our conversations are leaning towards getting away from the rank system anyways. Um because I of the stress that it causes our kids and the anxiety of making sure

047they're taking the highest level courses they can so they can get past that, you know, the number two to the number one spot. But I mean, you could go through each subject area and and, you know, try to make the argument the IB course or the the the AP class or different levels. And I just don't know how we're ever going to come to an agreement on on the waiting system that would be appropriate. We'd have to look at each individual class very, very closely. And I I don't know how we do that. And I don't know how it if you know I'd love to find examples of other schools through even if it's not through Connecticut but other schools that that do this and see how they do it. >> Yeah. I mean a

048clear a clear um thing. I mean the work that you guys did comparing it to other high schools. I appreciate that. that's, you know, but um but of those of those AP or the classes, the schools that offer IB, I mean, that's all of them, you know, where there's whatever 150 districts orund was it 160 districts that offer AP, you know, versus five that offer AB. So, it's it's really hard to, you know, to I I understand how it's hard to find a good plan because it doesn't seem like anybody else >> has really done it. Um yeah, but that being said, [clears throat] you know, in my own feelings for it, um the fairness to the students, >> um is really what I'm kind of focused in on here. Um and do we owe

049it to the students and fairness to maybe to take a a closer look. So, so if there is an AP level um if there's an AP level pre-calc that really isn't that hard and doesn't um you know show the rigor then maybe we shouldn't consider that at the same waiting just because we've um you know we've we've done it this way and it's because it just started with Yukon um and then AP I believe we had Yukon before AP classes right um but um but uh because it started that way and then IB got added I mean, I don't think it we necessarily need to to, you know, to stay on the same path. I think there might be a a more dynamic way to look at it or a more holistic way to look

050at it rather than just whether it says IB or AP or ECE or um or CE, you know, before the class. >> So, did did I come in? Did you guys hear all that? >> We did. Yeah. I >> can I ask a question please? >> Yeah. >> Can you hear Can you all hear me? >> Yeah. >> Okay. Because I just would wonder like who would be the arbiter of that? Who would determine what is rigor and not rigor? Right. So if IB has this curriculum and it deems it to be SL versus HL, who is to determine whether the class that I teach? And I'm thinking of IB US history SL is much more rigorous than Amy's class, IB US history SL. Or just to piggyback on that, what about AP calculus AB

051versus AP calculus BC? Um because that second course comes after, you know, they've learned the AB content. Should that be at a higher level? And are there any schools that that actually do that? >> But I do know as a teacher of AP and IB, um they offer different styles or different ways of teaching, right? where IB is more a survey class. And I'm speaking specifically for social studies. It's more a survey class, right? More research. Whereas AP, I mean, it's it's it's more expansive. You know, you have to know more content. And one of my mantras are you can't write what you don't know. So, it's more more well IB is more in depth and goes at a so slower pace and that's for SL or AL. But it's it lends itself to the

052needs of the student and what style of teaching that they can adapt to. So I I would as another cautionary tale, you know, to determine which whose class is rigor or what course is rigorous than the other. That's, you know, that's a line that I wouldn't want to go down. I have to chime in and add to what Carmeita was saying as as a person that has taught in the high levels. I think that we do risk a certain amount of subjectivity in making decisions like this and to repeat her question, who would be the arbiter of that? Because that type of subjectivity I think could be quite problematic if we take a look at the whole school and what we want for the whole school and all of the students. We have to ask

053ourselves what's the goal here? What are we really looking at in the end? are all of our students who go on to higher ed, regardless of their choices being full diploma, blended IB, AP, or full AP, in the end, do we feel confident that we're preparing them all for studies of higher ed? And if we can answer yes, then the sort of subjectivity that we may be looking at for quality points, I don't know if the end would actually give us the returns that we want. I think that that level of subjectivity may actually harm um in the end because then what you're doing is you're pitting our courses up against each other. And I think that what we're trying to do is prepare students for what's next and make sure that we're offering quality

054courses regardless of the acronym that goes before the title. >> Yeah, thank you. And I I appreciate that. Um and and that is obviously what we're trying to do in all the classes is um is get you know for the kids that are that are going to be you know collegebound and not careerbound um to get them ready whether it's an IB or AP and and you know should we be focusing on this but um you know but then at the same and and I understand the arbiter um who would be the arbiter and and and it would it would ultimately be you know the school administration um to figure that out to figure out um what do we what do we make for you know where are the kind of the guidelines? Is it

055going to be an expected amount of you know hours outside of school outside of the classroom um you know or the amount you know to figure out what the workload is um to to level that out. But we already by by you know in the system that we have it already kind of does the same thing by just saying we're just going to put a blanket you know credit on these classes to you know regardless of how how hard they are. Um, so I guess I I I was just hoping um for, you know, for the, you know, I mean, in my ideal, you know, ideal world, it would it would be somebody to be an arbiter and say, um, well, I think that this class, you know, and maybe it would be, you know,

056that weighed with the the teachers of the class's input, but I think this class is going to res require, you know, x amount of work outside and it's going to be this hard to get an A in it and and and to kind of wait out. I I do understand that that would be a very difficult task um to go through, you know, all the all the certainly all of the SL classes and some of the AP classes and figure out which way those those classes are going to go. Um but we don't offer uh very many honors level classes for those juniors and seniors in the same um in the same um you know the same token. So, um, you know, maybe some of these should fall into that that honors level class. Um,

057and maybe that would actually, um, you know, improve, um, you know, for students taking it, you know, taking kind of knowing that it's more of like a half a step up to that to that really hard IBHL or or AP class. Um, taking some of the SL like the SL math. um you know it it's you know I think we can I'm assuming that by the data and and you know what I've read anyway that that it's probably not as rigorous as as like an AP or IB well IB doesn't have calculus I guess but but as AP calculus um so it should that be weighted differently and and would students actually be more apt to take that class rather than just taking a college prep level math class? So, um I know we tell

058them it's as hard. Um but um but then when it comes to waiting, it doesn't really seem that way. >> Adrian, I I put my hand up for a while. Um if you're finished, may I speak? >> Yeah, we can't see when we can't see when you have your hand up. Um because it only shows us >> who's speaking. So, yeah, go ahead and speak. >> Okay. Um two things I want to say. Um, first, um, I was all for I to be honest, I was all for going through this process and and we I I want to, um, note that we actually did do, we're probably only showing you part of the process that we went through. Um I will tell you that the teachers sat with the department chairs looked at every single

059course that gets an advanced quality uh gets advanced quality points and um we asked them to look at the course um make a recommendation uh you know what the course should look at the what the points are this year look at um make a recommendation at what the point should be next year and if it's uh if it was recommended for a change why that change should be made. So, you know, they went through essentially a course audit um and we got that information, the Fitch leadership team and and myself, we looked at all of that and um you know, we had we sat down, we probably met for over two and a half hours that day, a couple of weeks ago. Um and we wrestled with the information because there were some in some

060cases, you know, where maybe a recommendation was made to maybe increase quality points, some in some cases to decrease the quality points. And that's where we made the decision to kind of move forward and look at what some of the other schools were doing ultimately where I um kind of converted it because I was all for like hey let's um let's look at some consistency here in this building and and for me it was really about you use the term like equity I think and um that's really where um things make a difference for me and when I started to do that research about what are the other IB schools doing what are the other schools in this area doing? And when I kind of thought to myself or determined based on this research that

061we are if we make a change like this um you know with the SL and HL courses or maybe you know making a distinction between ECE courses because we can kind of considered a couple of different options to bring forward to this board. Um, for review, um, we I really believe that we would be putting our students at a at a disadvantage and, you know, talk about equity, um, that would really make a negative have a negative impact on our students. I believe um when those students um you know go to apply for college uh you know to colleges and because of that and I think the whole not even I think I know the whole Fitch team leadership team and I were in agreement about that which is why you know we brought forward

062the presentation that we did. So I feel really um passionate about that really very serious about it and that's kind of where why we landed the way we did. The second point I want to make is um I want to speak to what you just mentioned about honors classes. And one thing that I have found in my you know almost 30-year career as an educator is that and um you know expectations are really important for kids and you know I I can be really proud I haven't been here that long but I'm really proud of the advanced level courses that we offer. There's so many that they or options that we have here at Fitch for students. And um if you wind up offering courses or pathways for students like honors level um if we

063offer them a lower level like honors they will not they will take that option. They will not opt then for the IBSL course they will not then opt for the ECE course. They will not opt for the AP course. Instead, they will take more honors level courses, which I guess is good, but you'll never get that college level experience. And um honors classes are okay, but it um it will not those courses will not prepare you in the same way for the rigor of college academics as a as the AP, IB, or ECE course will. Uh I believe Dr. Acriman and and probably Mike Whitney will agree with me on that. Um and that's just I think human nature especially the nature of a teenager. Um now there will be some teenagers of course that

064go ahead and probably you know probably a good number of them but I do believe there will also be a good number of of uh teenage students that say oh I can take an honors course and get quality points and um and it's going to be a little easier for me in my junior or senior year. um I think there will be a large number of them that will opt for honors rather than that uh more advanced level course. And so um while I know that some people are are interested in in exploring more honors options for kids, I I think that's a mistake if we go down that road. Thanks for giving me the opportunity to speak on these two. >> Okay. >> Yes. Thank you. Um where's the hand? There it is. Okay.

065>> Oh, do you have anything to say, Andrea? >> Yes. Um, >> I just wanted to say that I uh I fully agree with with um Emory. Um I think uh kids need to be challenged and I think that they need to to know that they can do this and to know also what's going to be required of them. I I couldn't I couldn't um agree with Emory more. >> Yeah, I I I would say that I I also agree and I I appreciate that. Um I guess I would I would just kind of go back and say that um in in my own opinion um by redesating some of these SL classes at that honors point level um we're still running the exact same class. we're just um we're just um you know maybe

066informing students that it's not quite as rigorous so maybe they wouldn't be as nervous about signing up for it in the first place. Um so I guess that that would be my you know my kind of counter that we're not actually changing any of our offerings or or redesigning curriculums here. We're just trying to um at least in my opinion would we would be just trying to um weight things you know more fairly um depending on depending on the rigor. I guess one thing um and we don't have to keep going on this because I know we've got a couple of other things and we got a late start tonight. Um but one thing I I am curious about is do students that are in the IB program, how many IB classes do they take?

067Like so if you're if you're in the diploma program and and going towards, you know, one of the kids that really is going towards a diploma, I know not that many kind of make it that that last 10 yards to um in June when everybody else is checked out um but or or May, I guess it is, but um but if they're if they're kind of going to that diploma program, how many IB level classes do they have in their schedule of I guess it's seven classes, is it that that they have options for? So, if Matt or Carita or Amy can answer that? >> Did anybody hear that? >> We did. I I believe it's Is this six? And it it can vary because I'm thinking about the 11th grade year because they do

068have to take a civic or AP governance, >> right? So, and then their electives. So, it can be it can run from four to four to five to six. >> Yeah. So, to just go back to like a a whole >> Okay. The I think the one thing that's important I'm sorry to interrupt Adrian is that if you're going for the AP Dip I mean the IB diploma sorry um you are limited to the number of SL exams that you courses plus exams then that you can take and Cara I think you probably have more information on this than I do but I believe you're limited to maybe only two SL exams everything else has to be higher level >> and I you know what I don't know the exact answer for that. But I

069don't know when I taught and I had full IB students. I don't know too many who took the SL at that time. I think and I'm again I'm only thinking about social studies. We just um incorporated an SL into our program, you know, just to give some variety, but there's there's not too many of our SL classes within our catalog. Yeah. So, I mean, I guess to just go back to the the holistic thing, is it a a student that a student that loaded their schedule with six AP classes versus a student that loaded their schedule with seven IB classes? Would they be equivalent in the amount of work that they're do? you know, the same student will say, would it be equivalent in the amount of work that they're expected to do or would

070one be, you know, harder or easier than the other if we were to just kind of make a a generalization there? >> Generalization, I would say equivalent. >> Same. And I and I don't like that comparison. I I you know, there are people I remember when we first started this uh people used to question what's harder. I think they both can be difficult in their own certain ways. I do. They're both challenging and if students wants to learn, they can learn. >> All right. >> I can tell you, Adrian, if I'm sorry if you let me I'm sorry to interrupt, but you know, I just came from a district that is the that has the number one high school in the state of Connecticut. Um th that is a full IB high school. Those students

071um I will tell you that is a very rigorous school. The every student takes the full IB diploma. They all take the IB exams in their 12th grade year. Um, and I will tell you all of those students constantly, all they do is talk about how hard that program is. Um, uh, you know, their graduation speeches, um, all they do is talk about how difficult the program is. Um, there's a lot of mental health services at that school because the program is so difficult. Um, I can go on and on about um, you know, about the kids and uh, at that school and how often they talk about how challenging their program is to the ad nauseium um, where it's almost obnoxious, over the top. Um, I have not heard that from our students at

072Fitch, which I appreciate, but um, the program at Fitch is not different from the program at SIBA. Um, I think our our kids maybe at Fitch just handle it a little better. Um, but I I do think it is a very very rigorous program if you're going for the full diploma. >> Yeah. All right. All right. I I I appreciate those those responses. So, um, is there any other discussion on uh on this? Mike or Andrew, do you have any more questions or concerns or anything? >> No. No. >> Yeah, I'm all set. >> All right. All right. Yeah, I think you've answered all my questions as well. And I thank you. I know it was I know you guys put a lot into this. Um so I really do appreciate it and um if

073anything um you know you've kind of uh eased some of my um concerns about it. So I appreciate I appreciate that. >> Thank you. >> Um all right. So uh next item on our agenda is the curriculum development process. And um this is going back to a policy change brought by the administration um that the board discussed in September on September 3rd in the curriculum meeting um and um so after that meeting there was a long delay um by the time it got to the board for a vote and there was some confusion on um what we did kind of talk about and agree on in that meeting and and um what ended up making it to the board policy committee and and ultimately to the board for the vote for the first read. So

074that vote is not complete. We're still working on this policy or at least the board as a whole. It is not curriculum necessarily. Um but I wanted to have this on the agenda so that we could have some clarity of um what the committee's feelings were in regards to the modification of policy 6141. So, with that, I turn it over to Amarie. >> Can you enlarge that for whoever's got it? Can you enlarge it? >> Sure. >> Is it okay if we uh I think we're gonna leave if that's okay. >> Yes. Thank you. Thank you, >> Carina. Matt, Amy, Carina, I appreciate time tonight. Thank you. >> Thank you. Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Okay. So, I want to um thank you for giving me the opportunity to talk about this. I want

075to take full responsibility for the uh mistake that happened last week at I believe it was the full board meeting and um you know Adrian just spoke a little bit about this. We I brought this forward for to the curriculum committee here on September 3rd and uh there was no policy meeting. It was supposed to go to policy after that. There was no policy meeting in October. Um it went to policy I believe on November the 20th. Um that was a long delay obviously and I think there was a miscommunication between myself and um the executive assistant who takes the notes for the uh you know for the different meetings. Uh again I'll take responsibility. I don't believe it was her fault. I think the long delay um created a again that miscommunication. And so

076when it went to the full board, I believe um for review, the the changes that I wanted to have or the changes that we talked about at the curriculum meeting back in September on September the 3rd were not communicated or were not reflected accurately um when they went forward. And to be honest with you, and again, I'm going to own this, take responsibility, um I I just didn't I didn't remember. U and so I had assumed that the changes that were uh reflected in the document were accurate. Um and so I made a mistake and um and I I want to be fully transparent and or honest about that. Um and then I also want to remind everyone or use this as an opportunity to remind everyone about the changes that I had originally recommended.

077What is reflected here is what was brought forward to the board on um last week. And so um that's this is the only copy I have. I don't have for whatever reason the the document that was shared with you on September 3rd. Um so and unfortunately because no one was in last week, it was the day um the day that we were leaving for Thanksgiving. I didn't have access to um the document. you uh Erica in other words was not in and so um I just had access to the document that Joyce had but I was hoping that we could review this and I can share with you the changes that I recommended originally to you on September the 3rd. So the policy right now as as written or the original policy was uh is

078six steps. Um first that a new course would be presented to the uh superintendent or assistant superintendent for approval. The second is that it goes to the board of education curriculum subcommittee for review and recommendations. The third is that it's presented to the uh cow um for don't please disregard the edits uh for approval. Then the fourth the curriculum is written. Fifth is that the curriculum subcommittee will review and the sixth is that the curriculum is then presented to the full board. On September 3rd, what I had recommended is that step number three would be eliminated and at that point I believe that this full committee had agreed with that recommendation. Um un again unfortunately what happened uh what transpired between se somehow be between September 3rd and when this was reviewed with the uh

079policy committee and then with the full board uh late November. um somehow three got changed. Um, in terms of I think what happened was there was some question about whether or not um the there could there could be a vote at the committee of the whole um and because there was a focus on that um I guess because there was you know some question about that um rather than being that step being eliminated like I had proposed and you had agreed to um that stayed and somehow number five got eliminated. That was never my intention. Five was always going to uh remain um you know where this curriculum committee would have uh uh viewing of rights of course of the curriculum um uh and the final approval of course would go to the board. The

080only step that would be eliminated in this process that I'm recommending is that um the cow um the the review of the cow after the curriculum subcommittee um be eliminated as a step in the process because the board will have full review uh review as um in step number six. If I remember correctly, Dr. Acriman had actually um commented in September 3rd that you know the board said you know the the curriculum subcommittee has had extensive review two different opportunities um you know there's no need for uh basically essentially two reviews by the full by the full board one by the committee of the whole in this case if number three stays it would have to be the full board because the full board does the committee of the whole does not have approval rights

081and then as a step number fix. Um, and so I'm hoping that my explanation here makes sense >> uh in terms of the revision that I the mistake that was made and the revision that I proposed originally on September the 3rd. >> That's correct. >> Does anyone have questions about what I originally proposed and and again the mistake that was made? And I'm again I want to apologize and and be upfront about the about the error and um and you know apologize for for that error that was made. No, I just wanted to have a comment about the board meeting and that is that um whatever happened my vote was because um and I think I voted to put put this back. I don't really recall, but um my vote was because I didn't think

082that this was that was going to be a second reading for the board. I thought it was going to be a first. >> So that's where all that happened. So >> yeah, I think it I think it was a first. Dr. Akerman. Well, it was so confusing because I whoever knows about those first and second things um had a question that I would never have thought of. So, I think it it I I think in the end we finally said, "All right, okay, let's make it a first and let's send it back." I think that's what happened. But at uh any rate, what you just said, uh Amory is correct. So just just uh to affirm what you're saying and in fact I did say at the meeting I think that in the past board

083members had had said why am I hearing this for the third time for >> yeah um I appreciate that Amory and um what you're proposing now is is kind of um what uh what I remember from that meeting and I know that we didn't have um I looked we didn't have any like live documents in that meeting to kind of refer back to so I had to kind of listen to it but um but that was >> yeah and I also went back and watched the full meeting just to make sure >> yeah I remember the comment I remember the comment on the CO being that they can't vote on it anyway um and that it was cuz originally um to give everyone on the committee or whoever else is listening some more history in

084this um Ann Marie had sent me an email saying I'd kind of like to make these changes Um, and then I contacted Jody at um, at CABE to ask him about the policy changes and where the full board would vote, what's typical for a board of ed. Um, so then we kind of um, or Ann Marie kind of with with Jod's comments that basically that the full board should vote on the final curriculum. Um, that's how we kind of ended up with the um, possible elimination of the the step three. Um and in the meeting I had made a statement about the the risk for the um for the administration or the the teachers is that you know if the curriculum committee approved the the writing and then and then approved the subcommittee review and

085then the full board didn't approve it um that might be disheartening to you know a teacher that had spent all that time on that. But um I think given that the the likelihood's probably pretty low. Um, and if the if the administration's willing to kind of accept that as a possibility, you know, a possible outcome, um, then I think that, um, you know, I I support that that removal, you know, if the administration's, you know, okay with that possible outcome, you know, letting teachers know that that that could happen. And I think the other thing is uh we talked about um you know whether whether or not the the curriculum committee had a [clears throat] what did it mean when we sent it to the board and it was you know in my view if

086we sent it to the board that means that we're recommending it that they be that they uh that they vote for it. Um, but I I think there was that that uh area was unclear. But I think if we send it the curriculum sentence to the board, that means everything's okay here, then you we're recommending you you vote for it. Unless I remember that wrong, but I don't think I did. >> Yeah. And I and I imagine I I've only been on the board for two years, but I imagine that if we were to go back through 10 years of meetings, there's probably very few, if any, um times when the board kind of um didn't go with the committee's review, you know, as far as a curriculum anyway. Um, I mean, they may have

087made modifications, but I I I I it seems like it'd be unlikely that we made it to the to the, you know, to the end zone and then and then didn't or made it to the one yard line and not to the end zone with with getting a new curriculum. So, um, so, um, so with that, um, Mike, do you have any comments or questions? >> Yeah, thanks. Um first of all thank you for the explanation. Uh the that last port ed was I found that part very very hard for me. Um but uh so right now uh like in the in the curriculum meeting um you came with that proposal as you said to that that change that was showing on the screen before to to step three and then everything else was unchanged.

088Um what is the proposal now? I'm I'm unclear if there's still going to be a step removed because I know we didn't um um come to any conclusions on that as a committee the first time. >> So from my understanding we did come to a conclusion the first time and that was that um and again I rewatched the meeting it was that number three step number three um would be eliminated. No, I think >> number three was >> No, no, that's that's not sorry. Um that that's not uh you came with a proposal of changing it and we are all supportive of that. >> No. Um I don't believe so. But will you tell me what you remember so that I could double check either double check it or just jog my jog my memory?

089>> I I remember you came to us. I mean so one thing that um we were looking at the curriculum handbook and in the the handbook these steps the original steps from the policy were there >> and is in that context um that they were looking to make the changes. I I will say that that linked document uh that version of it doesn't exist anymore. So spent a long time talking about page six but you can't you can't track that anymore. Um so so that version uh I think would need to be reestablished and the link um actually for FOYA reasons. Um but um you came to us with a proposal to change it as you said to instead number three instead of going to the the cow to go to the full board. And

090um and at that time Adrian and I were in attendance and I think we um like we never came with a recommendation but I think we both um supported that. Um there was discussion about um you you never proposed you didn't come to a proposal of removing a step first of all. There's discussion about uh maybe removing some of those earlier steps. At one point it was the full board. uh at one point it was the curriculum committee uh but we didn't come to any conclusions of that but but it's pretty clear the proposal you came to and if we had that original version of the curriculum handbook the modified version it would show that it was um that step three modified as it's shown now and then everything else left in place and I'm

091sure on that >> um >> yeah well I yeah I that that's I mean those are all good comments. I it's close to what I remember. Um slightly different like because when I rewatched it I but I had a different take going into it because I had already done a little bit of research on this um to try to get um the best idea for the committee to start with or try to get some facts for the committee, you know, by by reaching out to Jod and and doing some things like that. So, so I I had a little bit more going into it, but I think at this point we don't necessarily need to go back and and talk about that meeting. Um, I think what we need to do is um as a

092committee um make recommendations uh for policy and for the full board. That was my hope by bringing it up again in the committee. M >> um so um so with that being said, I think um what Ann Marie is saying is that she would like to leave step five in there that's currently um lined out in red and and we can just see how the committee feels on this, but leave step five in. Um like so that would just turn back to black from from line through red and then eliminate step three. um and and um eliminate step three. I think I I remember noticing that it said CO and I think I remember making a comment like that, but maybe it was Mike that made that comment. I don't know. But e either way,

093um where we are now is the administration's recommending to get rid of step three. Um so I guess I would like to see how the committee um feels about that. Is that accurate, Amarie? >> Yeah, that is accurate. That's my That's my recommendation and that's what I am planning to bring forward to or what I would like to bring forward to policy. >> All right. Um All right. So, um, would anyone I don't I know the whole like can you vote in a committee thing, but we'll we'll we'll vote by uh means of a way of understanding something firm coming out of this, but >> we we can always vote a recommendation. >> Oh, all right. All right. So, like would anyone like to make a motion um for recommendation to the to the board

094to eliminate step three in policy 6141? So move. >> All right. And I will second it. Um so um All right. Any more discussion on it? >> So let me just be clear. So it's not going to go to the to the committee of the whole. Our recommendation that it move forward to the board is is recommendation enough for them to con seriously consider this. Correct. Well, what we're going to do is the curriculum committee that way the committee has a clear um we've shown a clear path to go back to policy. Um, and then presumably policy will somehow take the committee's recommendations and what we voted for in the first reading and then give it to the full board to kind of decide if they want to go for what we voted for in

095the first reading, if they want to go with the curriculum committee's, you know, modification to that first reading or what. Actually, well, what I would do is probably go to policy and let them know that I'm recommending a change from from that first reading based on the fact that it was an error. >> Yeah. Yeah. Which is which is fine. Um, >> and I want to I want to be clear too, just so Dr. Arian understands, um, Dr. Arian, the process then would be that a new curriculum or a new course is presented to the superintendent or assistant superintendent for approval. Then it goes to the curriculum subcommittee for review and recommendation. Then upon approval it the curriculum is written um and then uh it goes to the board of education uh that once that

096curriculum is written it goes back to the curriculum subcommittee for review and then to the full board for final approval. >> That's my understanding. >> Okay. >> Yeah. So this would save a little bit of board time as well by having to you know approving it twice. um you know because they're just not approving drafting the curriculum. So there's little bit of financial um impact if if we didn't but more I think it's it's more the time that that the teacher would spend putting into it. So um so with that being said is there any other discussion? >> All right. So I'm just going to ask who's in favor of that change. Um, so Andrea, >> hi. Yes. >> All right. And Mike, >> no. >> All right. And I am in favor of it.

097Um, so we can um we can let the um you know the we can let the uh policy committee know that you know that outcome that there was majority but not unanimous support of that. Um, but what I would also like to do right now is to have some of Mike's thoughts um so that we can also let the policy committee know that um so that we can have some options when it gets to the full board to vote on the second reading. Um, so if you would, um, if you want to kind of explain what you, you know, how you envision this, Mike, um, and then, um, we'll make sure it ends up in the meeting minutes that way and and it goes to policy so they understand what what the other thoughts were

098that that the committee had. >> Yeah. My feeling is that the only thing that needs changing is that in within step three uh changing it from cow to full board because even though um there wasn't another step in there by having it go to cow the cow couldn't vote to approve it had to go to a full board meeting and actually we we talked about this quite a bit. Um it like and and the scheduling of the cow and the alignment of everything. There's actually a lot of our content during that meeting or that part of the meeting. Um having it go not to the cow and instead to the full board. Um usually I guess it could be punted to the cow if the um the chair decided and we talked about that too.

099That does streamline it a bit. And so so I think that's important. Uh we also talked last time about um you know any time you do this uh uh curriculum development it does have uh uh financial costs associated with it and then implications as well and that might be a rationale for having the full board involved ahead of [clears throat] time. I mean there's a one another way around that is like to have it you know ex curriculum development like a line item in in each year's budget and you know spending that. Um but I do think because of the financial and we brought this up last time because of the the financial implications that the >> [snorts] >> um that step three getting that full board approval um uh would help. Now there are

100two things I I would suggest maybe also modifying to help that along. Uh one of them's policy and one of them is just practice which would fall out of this um policy discussion but within the curriculum development. So the one thing with policy is um step number two says um you know it's for the curriculum committee and it says review and recommendations uh plural. I think we could probably just have that singular. And so like here, I didn't agree with it, but you voted to recommend a certain um course of action. So we could vote to recommend, you know, that this curriculum goes for um and in step two. And then actually I would add that to I don't have it up in front of me right now. I think it's step five where it

101comes back to the curriculum committee after it's written and we just have for review. I think it and I I I put this to the policy committee chair too in an email. I think adding and recommendation there would help the process go faster in terms of that that board meeting too. So so that you come out of each time like it's going to be written here's the recommendation from the the committee that it should be and then after it's written here's recommendation for the committee that um it should be approved. I think that helps the the process along um um quite a bit. So so that's that's a policy side of thing that to put recommendation in singular on two and then add and recommendation to number five. So both curriculum committee steps. Um, my

102nonpolicy part is I can see how it's ownorous for a teacher to have to come to two curriculum committee meetings like be before and after writing and two board meetings before and after writing. Um, but I don't know that that's necessary because um, maybe they just come to the curriculum committees or maybe they just come to the the board meetings, but the fact that it's been signed off on by the assistant superintendent means that they're at this point um, knowledgeable and qualified to uh, um, present with some additional information. I mean that that's a that's a decision of the the teaching staff and the administration but um it would be a way to reduce the number of times a teacher would have to uh come and present because you know after it's been signed off

103on by assistant superintendent after it's been signed like recommended for approval uh by the curriculum committee for instance like we take a certain amount of ownership to that and we can advocate on our own for so those those are my thoughts. One policy, one um kind of practice. >> All right. Um so the first part of that um maybe we can um maybe um that the so the two additional things um I think are great ideas to um you know the the modifications to number two and five um just removing recommendations to recommendation um in number two um well that would if we delete the s that would basically um review and recommendation that that would make it where it's going to the full board versus recommendations to the administration. Is that your kind of

104thought on that, Mike? Yeah, I guess I guess that change with the to singular would in my mind still have three there, step three. But if step free weren't there, I guess you'd want to leave it plural, right? >> Or not. I mean, yeah, because we can't recommend. >> Yeah, I don't know. I guess we could, but um yeah, if you didn't have step three, that change wouldn't wouldn't be critical. Well, it might, but it's not critical, I'd say. >> Yeah. But but how about step five? I think um I think um your recommendation to to put and recommendation um at the end of step five is a very good um modification in my opinion. Um I don't know if Andrea has any opinions on that but um but because we really are making a

105recommendation to the full board for final approval. So um so I think staying saying that is uh is important that we say that. So, um, maybe we can just make a motion to add that, you know, on step five anyway. And I think that whether we make recommendations singular or plural, that can just kind of get worked out however the policy ends up, you know. Um, so do you want to do you want >> So, um, maybe I'm tired. I don't know. Adrien, just in essence in a nutshell, tell me what you just said. >> All right. So, I think that we should just make a motion right now to at the end of step five where it says board of education curriculum subcommittee will review and recommend and make recommendation for board approval at

106the end of that. I like that because I thought to I like that because to me it was just implicit, but now you know it actually says it and because like I whoever said it before the board changes maybe it was Dean at the other meeting you know board changes it's not the same people the policy committee will will and the curriculum committees will change. Um, so, so then this spells it out exactly because to me I say say, well, you sent it to the board that means you recommend it. But [clears throat] this actually says, >> yeah, actually maybe uh maybe if we say and make recommendation for board action. >> Yeah, [clears throat] I like that. >> You know what do you think about that, Mike? >> Of of what making that that

107change? >> Yeah. at the at the end of at the end of five just pay you know at the end of five adding and make recommendation for board action. >> Yeah. Yeah. That that would be fine with me. I guess we're voting that as a separate recommendation because we're we're we're recommending changes. >> Yeah. Yep. So we so we voted on three number three to to kind of go with um with Ann Marie's proposal there. Um but with the clarification of your concerns on that um and then we can vote on a a change to five that we would be proposing as a committee by adding that at the end. Um and and just like Andrea said, I think it I think it just reads better and it's a little more more clear of what

108the subcommittee or um with a are we a subcommittee or just a committee? >> I guess the policy is unclear on that >> because it says subcommittee some places and committee >> others. >> This is Yeah, I haven't changed that component of the policy. That's the way that it was written. >> Oh yeah. I think the the whole body of the policy talks about committees in some places and subcommittees in the other. So let I guess not open that can of worms. >> Yeah, maybe we can just leave it to the policy committee to see if they want to leave subcommittee or just curriculum committee. Um but we can leave it to the policy committee to make a change there because that's more of a technical thing, not something that really affects our operations. Um

109but if somebody wants to make that motion to add that at the end of um number five um we can we can um vote on that and kind of move on here. >> Can I have a point of clarification? Is this committee supposed to be voting on? Like I thought that that committees like this subcommittees committees and whatever we're calling this like the the pol like a policy committee or the curriculum committee. I thought this is a working committee that doesn't vote on things maybe has consensus on something or makes recommendations but doesn't vote. >> Oh the >> Yeah, we can we can recommend and vote on recommendations. You can always do that because because there's got to be something other than consensus. >> Yeah, >> because consensus is essentially a vote. >> This is

110not a working committee. This is a a board of ed committee. >> Okay. >> And I don't I've never seen the word sub before it before. So it's just a board of ed the board of ed curriculum committee. It's not a working committee. That's different. >> Okay. Yep. This is uh that's not you know again I I didn't change the policy. That's that was always there. >> All right. Well, we we know somebody that happens to be on the policy committee that's also on this committee. So, maybe that person can can bring that bring that up and and uh you know, however, however that want however you want to go forward with that. But just as far as and we're not even saying we have to make a vote. We're just saying make a recommendation.

111>> So, happy to >> your concerns either way. Um, we're just saying that the policy, just like we're doing today, um, we're looking over this policy and making some recommendations for modification. We're just saying with the curriculum, we're going to make recommendations for board action. Um, >> so, um, >> yeah, I think that's a good change. >> Yeah. So, all right. So, who anyone want to make that motion? >> I think Andrea did. I'll second it. >> All right. Andrea first, Mike second. And um so in to be clear, it'll be the language will be approximately depending on what the policy committee means, but the language will be um after number five and make recommendation for board action so that it's clear and then the policy committee can change that. But that's at least what

112we voted on. Um and all right, so all in favor I >> I >> and I'm in favor. So, all right. So, that change is unanimous. >> All right. All right. Um, so >> I did want to say one more thing. I I knew I knew I knew where in that uh September meeting where um the proposal like Amory's proposal to change uh the steps uh was in place. I did just go go back and rewatch it cuz it's pretty short and and I I can see her interpretation that what she's saying is uh to remove step three uh because and the argument after that was because the board will have final approval. My interpretation of that is final approval after the cow approved it. And I was thinking of the of the uh final

113approval to go and write it. But I can I can definitely see uh where um Amry saying that um she was thinking final approval of the curriculum like at the end final end of the process. Um so so I I I do see that as like my difference of interpretation uh of what was and I I had that interpretation at the the meeting and that's why we we discussed it as we did. Uh but but I also will say it's it's great that we are pursuing this recommendation route because um though we did have a discussion in curriculum um it was it was you know like we had varied opinions and um and not not clear guidance uh coming out of our committee and I think that also contributed to >> [snorts] >> um um

114going into the policy committee and and what happened further Yeah. Yes. So, we will try to have documents in front of us in the future. So, um so we can refer back. But yeah, I yeah that it when I re I I actually relistened to it twice um because I was still confused a little bit. So So there there was plenty of room for confusion. Um, >> can we get that original that um curriculum handbook document uh restored? I think I think it's just a linked document that's been edited since, but there was a lot of discussion that referenced that page six and like when I went back and watched you just you can't follow along at home anymore. And I and we do we >> Yeah, we we as a board uh it's our

115responsibility at this point to have that document. [snorts] >> Yeah. The reason why we pulled it down, Mike, is because I think we because this was in process, we didn't want to have a document out there that was going to be um have some some edits obviously to it. Um and I think that we anticipated, at least I anticipated that the some of the edits were going to go through sooner than like a lot quicker um than um I didn't anticipate, for example, that there wasn't going to be a policy meeting in October and that November's was going to be delayed. Um, so I I just honestly I anticipated that this whole process was going to be a lot quicker and so I had asked Erica to pull it down because I thought that I

116was going to be able to make the edits to the the curriculum document and I didn't want teachers to be working off a document that would have changes to it that were going to happen quickly. Oh, I understand that part in terms of the life uh within the school system, but um it has to have kind of that version that we had the meeting. This is a version control thing, but it's important in terms of FOYA that version um basically there needs to be a separate link that that link has to uh be static with what was discussed in the meeting. In this case in particular, it kind of makes it impossible to follow the flow. My guess is that version still exists. It just needs to be it just needs to be linked back.

117>> Yep. >> Yeah. >> Eric on that for sure. >> So, yeah. So, we'll just PDF that that dated version and leave it in attached to the minutes or something like >> I I'll add a quick aside >> the the FOYA thing. They really recommended everything be every attached thing be a PDF because otherwise um a person could request the actual Excel sheet or Word doc or Google doc and uh we'd have to provide it. Uh I I wasn't aware aware of that wrinkle and just like PDF is a lot cleaner uh to provide and it doesn't have like the you know the the links beyond links that we often uh worry about. Yeah, thank you for that. That's that's a that's a good recommendation and and something that I support just having um yeah

118having a link to a PDF, you know, versus a Google doc that could change in time. Um all right, so any more discussion on curriculum development process? >> No. >> All right. So moving on. Um, so this is uh the next item is committee recommendations for board discussion or action. Um, so this I put in because the curriculum committee >> I'm sorry I think we were are we going over the tracker first or is that out of am I out of order? >> I you're out of order or the >> Oh, I'm apologize. >> Yeah, what's in the order for me after curriculum development was committee recommendations for board discussion or action. >> Oh, my apologies. So um so that so I put this on the agenda just because we talked about a lot of

119things um in this committee in the last couple of months. I think we we've had three months and five meetings or something like that. Um um six meetings and four months I guess it is. But um but uh so I wanted to see if any committee any committee members wanted to make any motions um to send anything to the to the board. And I've got one thing that I was thinking about specifically. Um but I was I was thinking about two things, but the uh discussion tonight um limited that down to one thing. But um but does anybody else have any anything that they would like to um send to the full board for discussion? and and this is based on what we've spoken about in sort of recent meetings. Is that the idea? >>

120Um that's that's what my intent was, but that's not the way the item was written. So we can um so if you've got a new item that you want to discuss or send to the board for discussion, um you could you could make that um recommendation. Now >> I'll I'll let you go first. I've got one that may or may not be like part of our purview. >> All right. All right. So, um so the one that I was thinking about was the waiting of quality points, but I think um you know, unless other members um feel that that should go to the full board for more discussion. Um I think I'll kind of lay off that because I think we had some some good discussion on that tonight. And I and I do appreciate

121um all of that time and I know I know it was a lot of work to put that together. Um, but one recommendation I would like to make is to make a motion to recommend that the board consider um additional offerings in American Sign Language um based on our discussion and family and student um desire um for more ASL. All right. So, I'll make that motion if anyone wants to second it. >> I'll second that. All right. Um, so, uh, discussion. >> Yeah, I just have a a quick one. I I found that, uh, foreign language survey, I think it's maybe was it 2022 or 2019? I can't remember. It was a while ago. Um, >> yeah, it was March 2022, I believe. >> Yeah. Um I I think that'd be informative uh to do

122again because um the the language offerings have changed since then and um and of course students have changed too and and there's introduction of languages earlier. Um I think that it it might I imagine there'll still be interest in ASL but but I it's it's probably um uh because there's another question that came out just recently. I think it was in a regular board meeting about the um kind of struggles fitting uh language time in at the elementary level which I hadn't been aware of and so so it might ASL might be the core of what we're talking about but it might actually go into uh like what what is the balance of language offerings that that we should which offer uh I I'm I'm supportive of this motion but I I I think as

123good information for it would be a new survey. Yeah, I I um I think that's a good >> [clears throat] >> uh a good thought in um to have more information. Yeah, because you know ASL is the thing that sticks out to me, but there was there was a lot of other stuff in there um that could be um you know could be discussed by the full board. Um, Ann Marie, if we wanted to ask the administration to do another survey, would that be something that the full board would have to ask for in your in your thoughts? >> I'd have to look into that a little bit. Um, some of it is going to I mean, I think we could we could do it. I don't think it's going to be that difficult to

124do. Some of it is going to have to do with timing because as you know um students begin selecting their courses like I think like January or February at least at the secondary level and if we were to put out a survey and then get the results and then have um be able to like take actions say for example um the survey results come back and something is drastically different right than what we currently offer like say that um survey results come back and um the families and the students are in alignment that they want to take uh language that um we currently don't offer and we would it would have staffing implications and budget implications. It wouldn't be something that I anticipate that we would be able to like just as long as people

125understand we wouldn't be able to like mobilize on it for next year. That might have to be require some some planning and you know that kind of it would require some planning. >> Yeah. And I think the March timing was probably to get uh parent involvement is uh because I think that's when um at least the elementary schools have the um parent teacher conferences >> and uh and so that that seemed and it could be the same exact survey questions actually probably be valuable to be the same ones. I think as a board we could discuss it before that happened and then and then follow up afterwards. I'd be fine with that too. Um yeah, that that sounds reasonable. So So we could um um we could just make a little bit more of a

126general thing like a motion um that the board can uh consider foreign language offerings um and then just bring some of this stuff up for discussion. And >> maybe language offerings. I I misspoke when I said foreign language. >> Oh, yeah. Yeah, I guess we should. So, so I guess ASL is is is English although we call it American but um >> it's it's American but is a totally different language. So it's not it's not >> it does fall under the world language umbrella right currently through the state department of ed although I don't know if that's you know technically the correct it does fall under world language right now in terms of credits. Oh. >> So, um, how about if we say I can just withdraw that motion. If I were to withdraw that

127motion and then make a new motion just to say, um, recommend that the, um, that the board consider world language offerings. So, leave it just kind of vague. Does that sound Yeah, that'd be okay. I mean, you could even uh you could even uh sharpen it a bit. Um current and future uh language offerings. So, it kind of leads you down that path and and lead and would lead to like motivation for a survey. Um and this is just uh coincidence, but today I happen to move a book around and it was the Baron's ultimate guide to ASL. I didn't know we had that. I didn't know we had that at our house, but I just found it today. [snorts] >> Yeah, that's funny. >> I'm not offering to teach the course. I do have

128the book. >> All right. [laughter] Yeah, my kids teach me some stuff. It's It's pretty uh It's pretty entertaining. It's Yeah. So, but um All right. So, um I will just withdraw that last motion if [snorts] if you feel like withdrawing the second. Yeah, I'm gonna second whatever you end up with. [laughter] >> All right, so >> if Andrea doesn't beat me. >> All right, I'm going to make a motion to recommend that the board consider current and future world language offerings. >> Second. >> All right, we'll give that one to Andrea because I did hear her voice. >> Yes, she got me. [laughter] >> I'm sorry. I'm sorry. No, great. No, >> I'm gonna pass. Give it to Mike. Give it to my No, it's definitely you. You got me. Um, all right. So,

129all right. All in favor? >> I >> and and I'm in favor. So, all right. All in favor? All right. Um, anything else? >> I I've got one. Um I was uh really kind of both impressed and and struck by the the discussion about like um basically the AP scores, the the IB scores and the um the ECE credits and it's clear the ECE credit EC the dual enrollment credits that's quite a quite a success. Um I I wonder if in the context of the board it would be good to discuss the overall performance of the like the areas of strength and weakness in the the AP and IB scores. Um I think it's important information and I'm I'm wondering I don't think I'm would be there yet but I'm wondering if it uh would

130help kind of tailor future choices of course offerings. Um, so that that's my broad area. Um, I'd have to hone it down. That's where I wasn't sure it was in within totally within our purview. I mean, we can we can talk about the information at at committee reports, of course. Um, but I was wondering what what we do to the board that wouldn't just make um everyone present the exact same thing again. Mike, um I want to remind you that um or maybe you're that as a part of the schools and and their reporting on school performance, the um Fish High School will be coming to the board to the full board to present their student performance information similar to how the elementary schools have been presenting their uh Smarter Balance results. And I'm anticipating

131that uh the high school will have a very similar, if not almost identical, presentation to what they've presented uh to this com this committee uh just a few weeks ago. >> Oh yeah, that's a very good point. We'll get that pretty soon. Um and then is there like a school improvement plan? Would that be part of it where they'd uh if they so chose um uh kind of uh restructure or or modify API offerings in light of the scores and I will I will emphasize that I did in that meeting that that's only one metric of utility of and success of a course. >> Yeah. So they also have a school improvement plan. In fact, the one thing I believe that they didn't uh present that you know the other schools of course did uh

132they didn't present their their state testing data which in this case would be the SAT. Um I can ask the fish leadership team to incorporate that information in which case their school improvement plan of course would have uh modifications based on that and likely their their other performance data like the AP and IB exams or the east probably not the ECE information. Um although you know maybe they have some information about how they want to expand offerings or um you know maybe tailor their offerings a little bit differently. So um we certainly can ask Matt and his team to uh incorporate that information into their presentation to the board. >> Yeah. So I think we could um I think we could we as a committee could I mean that's that's in our purview that the

133you know the as far as curriculum I think um so we as a committee could just if you've got some specifics that you want to just make sure are included with that presentation we can just talk about that um the specifics that you want and we could approve it and um we could maybe we could even um just put it into the existing um presentation so it doesn't have to add to an agenda. item um for the board which I think would be great. So So do you do you want to just make you know so I I wrote down board discussion and strengths and weaknesses of highle course offerings. Is that about what you were looking for Mike or is it something a little bit more specific? >> Yeah, that might be good. But

134I mean, if we lasered in on just the the performance, we could we could just say discuss the um uh student performance on AP and IB tests and leave it clean like that. At least that'd be um like we we've heard it at this point as a committee, but maybe it's good for the the board to hear that. Like that would be a clear kind of closedended discussion. Um I mean if we wanted it broader then than then I we I could envision adding um uh you know um AB AP and IB course offerings as they relate to uh student performance on AP IB test. Um >> my point of clarification, are you interested in the um SAT information as well? >> Oh, I'm I'm sure we'll get that. And actually, I want to say

135that that that's given every year and it's in the the um report card uh to the state, right? >> And and actually uh performance on that is in to my thinking um you know that that's our that's like our core measurement of our kind of our core responsibilities. Um uh but but this would be be separate from that. >> Okay. Okay. Just wanted to clarify. Good. And the and uh the nice thing about it is Fish has some uh good results this year to report. So I'm sure they'd be happy to speak about that. So, so I guess if I make it a motion, I just kind of make make it clean. And I I'd move uh that the um we recommend the board discuss a uh student performance on AP and IB tests. Just

136leave it at that. Sorry, I'm just typing this. Move that the board discuss student performance on AP and IB tests. That's that's what the motion is. Did I get that right? >> Yes. >> All right. I will second that. All right. Any other discussion? All right. All in favor? >> I >> All right. And I am in favor. All right. So, I've got a a procedural question. I've never been clear on this. >> Is it this would essentially be a cow discussion committee of the whole are we're effectively trying to refer something to the committee of whole. Um, but then I guess as a comm I guess you would as as the the chair of the committee then email the um board chair. Um, actually if you do it tonight, we know who it is

137for sure. Um, that that we're that we're referring these two things to Cal and that would be that or >> I'm just going to say we're referring it to the board and I'll let um I'll let the chair make a decision on which meeting to put them in. They'll send it right back to curriculum. [laughter] >> Yeah. Um yeah, I'll uh I'll I'll make the Yeah, I I'll uh I'll send these two two items to the chair. Um and then um with the curriculum modifications, um yeah, I'll send them to the chair for, you know, saying that we voted, you know, all in favor on both of them. Is there any Well, before I get off this one, is there any other discussion under committee recommendations for board discussion or action? >> No. I I

138would just say for if either of those do go forward that like it it is a a a strengths and challenges uh discussion and it's it's okay to like it doesn't take away from our strengths to talk about some of the challenges but it it should be balanced and um you know get um full credit for for for instance the number of people taking an AP course or or how many people get by literacy uh um certificates or seal of biiteracy um that that you know we tend to focus in on like what we still need to do because we want to help move things forward but know where we're starting at um may well be a good place in some cases. >> All right. All right. Yeah, that's um you know that sounds good.

139And I think that um well hopefully that second one we can we can just throw in when um when Matt Brown is presenting to the board because I'm sure he spent enough um at least he spent a fair amount of time with us this fall so far. So um all right. Um so uh moving on to the uh review the referral tracking sheet. So we will go to Um, am I looking at the right one? I've got one in front of me that says revised October 14th. Yes, that's the right one. All right. >> Yeah, I have I have that same one. And if you you don't mind, I'm just projecting on the Oops. I'm just projecting on the screen, Adrian. >> All right. All right. Let's um let's start from Are we okay with

140starting from the bottom and working up? >> Yes. just because it seems like that one. It'll be quicker starting off that way at least. So, >> I maybe we should talk about that at some point. I don't know about tonight, but >> All right. >> Go ahead. >> All right. So, um so, uh so date completed. Um and I guess I can talk to Bev about this or whoever the chair is next month. um and um on whether we could actually check these off of curriculum or if it has to be the full board. But um but we'll we'll for this for tonight's purposes, we're going to write in dates on the things that we think were done. So um are we in agreement that we um sufficiently discussed awarding awarded quality points? >> Yes.

141And I can see why you're starting from the bottom up. I like how this [laughter] is going to go. >> I feel like it's going to go quicker. Um, so you're in favor of of, you know, saying that we've adequately discussed that, Mike. How about you, Andrea? >> Yes. >> All right. Yes. And I'm in favor of that as well. So, we'll put in 12125. Um, uh, mastery based assessment and credit reduction. Um, I don't think we've got Have we gotten to that? Oh, that's ridiculous. >> To me, I feel like we sort of did. >> All right. Yeah. No, we we did. We talked about that. So, I'm going to go with your date and um >> 10. Well, all right. Does everyone feel that we adequately discussed that as a committee? >> Yes.

142>> Mike? >> Yes. >> All right. And I do as well. All right. um discussion the number of credits for high school graduation. Is that kind of the same thing? >> I think this was the um the other policy that just went through first read the uh that you know we talked about the graduation requirements and how we're going to change proposing to change it a few years out uh to reduce >> they were on the same agenda. >> Yeah, >> they were on the same agenda which is why the dates are the same. >> Yeah. Well, that's credit reduction is the same thing as reducing number of credits, right? >> Yes. >> All right. So, that's So, these are kind of on the thing twice, but um I guess if everyone's in favor, um

143we'll put it as the same date, 10:22. >> So, are you in favor, Andrea? >> Yes. >> Checking that one off, Mike? >> Yes. And that's the only MW on there. So, just want to point that out. >> All right. I'm in favor of that. Um as well. All right. So, that one's off. Um math curriculum ongoing. Um we can put um it's ongoing, but why don't we put um you know, we'll put dates of discussion maybe in the subject um because that that column just says date completed. Um, does that sound all right or >> Yeah, I like that because at least then we're not trying to remember because we are this is going to be ongoing as um point out a lot of the curriculum needs a a look, right? >> All right.

144So we'll make it discussed on 44 and 1124 by the BOE but it's ongoing for curriculum. So um so we'll just put those notes into the subject um that Anmarie has written afterwards. All right. Um 2024-34 discussion of IB Ian Thomas. Um well, I don't think we've done that one. I would need to talk to Ian exactly about what he had in mind, but we haven't had that um specific. So, we'll leave that one on the tracker for right now. Um, this one I know there's been back and forth on whether we had enough discussion on it. Um, but um, now I'm up to 2024-23 discussion of or it's honors classes beyond the 10th grade. Um, that was last September that that was referred. Um, we did talk about that. Um, I don't know that

145we as a committee came to any conclusions on it. Um, I guess this could have been um, you know, this could have been uh like a motion to the or to send it back to the board. We didn't at that time. We still could. Do we did do I guess I'll ask either Mike or Andrea. Do you want to have more discussion on this or do you feel like we discussed it um, well enough? I >> I don't know what conclusions we ca we came to. I I guess I don't know. Mike, where are you on that? >> Yeah, I don't think we came to a conclusion. I mean, there's I I I believe Ian Thomas was looking for more honors courses beyond the 10th grade. And in some tracks they exist, in some tracks

146they don't. And it's clear at Fitch right now and and and in other high schools around the state that the u the movement is is towards things like dual enrollment. uh those numbers are increased and actually they're quite impressive. So um but we didn't come to any conclusion. We did discuss it. Um >> yeah and we I mean we could leave it on there as as just something that we're going to keep you know thinking about and um so we can either leave it on there or we can you know put I guess it was last January was it? I thought it was a little later in the year that we discussed it but maybe it was January. Um but um so if we feel like we discussed it enough as a committee for right

147now or where it can just come up again later if if need um we you know we can do that or um >> I personally I think we should leave that we should take it off and because I think we we had a very full discussion on it and and we're going to talk about it at the board again, right? Uh unless I'm wrong. Well, I don't if we wanted to talk about it as a board, we would need to send it as a board because it's on the curriculum >> um agenda, not on the not on the full board agenda. >> I'd be in favor of marking as complete because we we definitely discussed it. >> Yeah. >> All right. >> I I agree. >> All right. So I I will agree with that

148and we will um put that as completed on 25. All right. Integrated. The next one up is -22 integrated financial literacy update. I should have gone back and looked at the um if >> if you recall Melissa Manzion came and did a presentation on uh personal finance and all the things that um that they're doing in those in that class. It's a new class that's required by the state department of ed. It's a 0.5 credit. Uh she came and did an extensive presentation uh for our curriculum committee. And if you would like me to I can resend the presentation to all of you. >> Yeah. Yeah. And I I thought it was extensive, too. I remember Matt Schulman um was looking for something broader, like a total look at everywhere financial literacy could be put

149in the curriculum and and I can understand that, but but I mean, we did we did have a pointed discussion and a very informative discussion about uh personal finance at least. So, so I I'm in favor of marking that as complete and see if there's if there is more appetite to talk more broadly uh then it can be referred to again. >> Seven. >> I agree. >> All right, let me give me just one second. Um I just want to pull up I'm just going to take a quick scan of the minutes. All right. Yeah. All right. It's in the minutes so from that meeting. So I'm I'm comfortable with um with uh going with that. Um so that we completed on 4 47 April 7th, 2025. All right. Um, so the next one up

150was me 24-12 discussion of the foreign language series s survey. Um, so yeah, I I feel that we talked about that. We've made some action on it. So we can take it off our list for now if everyone else is in agreement on that. >> Okay. >> Unless you just want to change it from X years ago since I advocated for a new survey. >> It should have been. Well, the reason I wrote from two years ago is because that survey wasn't available. The only place I could find it was in a in the video of the meeting and then those videos were missing for like a year. So, you know, we couldn't get them on YouTube because of the whatever the changeover or something. Um, so that's why I wrote two years ago because

151I couldn't find the actual document. So, um, but yeah, anyway, um, we talked about that on November 3rd. So, um, >> and those videos are now up. So, >> they are >> to the delight of the entire internet. >> Yep. I know it got one more view cuz I watched it before our November meeting again. But, uh, but yeah, so I'm in favor of removing that if um if everyone else is. >> Fine. Yes. >> All right. um discussion of reading and writing K5. Um so I think again um in my own opinion we should put um the CO under the subject as you know as kind of an update. Um but we still I don't think we've in my own opinion have completed that in curriculum. >> We did not complete it in curriculum.

152Um, if you remember, uh, Chairman Washington, uh, asked for that to be moved, similar to the update that I did for math. She asked for that to be moved to, uh, the committee of the whole so that the full board could see it. But Sarah Beth Stenona who is our elementary literacy person came and did a extensive uh presentation to the to the committee of the whole on uh witten wisdom and the science of reading and all of the work with the year one implementation uh last year in in at the end of April. And again, I can if you need to see that presentation, I I can make I may have it, but I if if not, I can make sure that I secure that um from her and share it with this committee.

153>> Yeah, I remember that presentation too, but I I would keep this one as ongoing just because of the the wit and wisdom by nature we're going to want to talk about this year or two, etc. >> Sure. >> I think that's fair. >> I'm going with that that note. I I like that date discussed idea. >> Yeah. So So if we can we'll just leave that on the tracker. Um that's my my opinion of it anyway. Um that that um attachment is I just pulled up the um the minutes and you can get to that presentation in the minutes. Um so it's it's linked through. So um so you don't have to look that up, Amory. Um all right. And um Dr. Acriman, how did you feel on that? >> Fine. >> All right.

154Leaving it fine with leaving it leaving it as not completed but ongoing. >> Sure. >> All right. >> Yeah, I'm fine with that. >> I'd be fine with anything. >> All right. [laughter] It's getting late. So, >> yes, it is. >> This might be our longest meeting so far. Um, so we'll try to get through the rest of it quickly. All right. Um, it doesn't develop of schedule for curriculum updates. All right. That one we just haven't done yet. Um that is something that we should talk about at some point. But um program of studies for GMS and this is old. Do we know who made that referral review program of studies for GMS? >> I don't know who made it, but I can say that in looking through past minutes uh for something else

155uh Dr. Pas uh the previous assistant superintendent uh did at least go through the the Fitch uh program of studies and and make sure things were aligned in terms of every course in there had been approved by curriculum and like look for consistencies or inconsistencies. But but that stuff kind of creeps in every few years anyway. And there's there's always a bit of um uh sometimes there's a bit of thatching out that that needs to happen after a while. um you know supply consumer demand uh sometimes changes um so so I'd like to keep that one in and do that sometime so I'd like to keep it on myself >> I think we have on the schedule uh Adrian if you look at our tenative agenda items um that is or for this year I

156believe that is uh those two are on the agenda for later this year usually around the time I I believe around the time that those um documents are published for students to review. >> All right. Yeah. All right. I'm looking at it now. Yeah, you have that in January. Um program of studies. All right. So, so we will leave that one. Um but if um and Marie, if you if you um have any way of searching I know uh Joan's really good at this, but um or Joyce, I should say. Um but searching the minutes and finding out if we've already talked about that um ahead of that that would be great you know so you know so board members could review um you know previous >> previous years. >> Yeah. So if Dr. Piaza

157talked about it a year or two ago um you know if we've got any dates on that if she can find anything that would be great just to know. Um so we could kind of look back at the history of this because this is kind of an old one. >> Okay. I'll ask Joyce to do that. Thank you. >> All right. And then um this one, Dr. Arian's um review of the English language arts curriculum in writing six to 12. >> Here's the thing. Here's the thing, Emory. I don't know where we ever got with that because I remember meeting with you and with um um I can't think of her name, but I can see your face in front of me. Lori? Lauren? No. was probably Laura Laura. >> Yes. And um I I

158remember that we we were talking about it and we were going to move forward on something and and we never moved forward and u but I was talking with um somebody's uh who would be knowledgeable and and what I heard was that there's not a real consistency of write approach to writing at the middle level. So, um, >> so I think what I'd like to Oh, okay. Go ahead. I'm sorry, Dr. Arkman. >> I'll just finish my sentence. What I'd like to do is kind of sit down with with uh Amarie again, just the two of us, like and bring me up to date, you know, on on where we are with this. And then maybe after that meeting, I could make uh uh maybe Marie could talk about it and uh and then I

159could I could make a more informed uh recommendation about this particular one. >> Yeah. If I can share with the full w with this Oh, I absolutely I always like talking with you Dr. Akim especially about English two former English teachers. I'll never uh turn down that opportunity but I would like to share with this board that um based on the uh discussion that took place uh during that particular board meeting I was a little concerned with the status of our um writing curriculum. Not so much six uh that the high school level but at the middle school level. And I think that that was your area of concern as well Dr. Acriman. So um so I have been working with the middle school team and uh they are in need of a new core

160resource similar to the elementary school the K5 they are still using the um the readers and writers workshop which as we know now is a antiquated resource and um so I'm working with them to review new materials and um and they are piloting one resource this year. Uh they're also exploring I I believe actually on December the 8th they'll have a second presentation. In January, they'll have a third. And um hopefully depending upon costs and some other factors um I could I'll be able to move forward and make a recommendation to first to this committee and then to the full board for a new um more comprehensive and rigorous um more complete uh resource for that middle school team that I believe that uh everybody will be more satisfied with and that would maybe meet

161the requirements of uh of this particular I guess you would call it um referral. >> And Emily, would it be appropriate for me to to sit in on those meetings that you were just me mentioned? >> Oh, sure. Sure. Some of them are going to be um I I believe one of them is going to be in person, the upcoming ones. One's going to be in person and one is going to be online. And I'll have to check for you, Dr. Acriman, if the one coming up in December is in person or online. I I can't remember um which is which, but I will make sure that you have that information. >> Oh, great. Okay. I would love to to sit in on that just just a listen, even if it's just a listen to

162keep my mouth shut, but um um yeah, I would like to be just to know that. >> Yeah, I'd love to have you be a part of it. One of I will let you let everybody know one of the resources that we're looking at and it just makes sense is uh Whiten wisdom for grades six through eight. uh you know in order to kind of similar to what we're looking at for mathematics in terms of illustrative math for K through 8 um one of the resources that we're looking at is extending just as we have Whiten wisdom K through five uh as a possible um resource extending um that resource through grades 6 through 8 um so that there is some coherence um in through the grade levels. Now again, we haven't made the selection

163yet. The the they're going to come in and present to the middle school team, but um it's one of the options that they thought to consider. So, um you know, I'm going to leave here back to the 19 or or 2018. Did I say Yeah, I did say that right. Um I you know I wonder if we could you know kind of change the date on that so that not not just change the date then lie about it but like uh maybe put you know I'd like to get a a more recent date that that it doesn't look like it's something that's hanging around for seven years that uh it's really something that's ongoing and now we'd like to to pursue it and maybe you know make a recommendation to pursue the the review of

164English or continue the review of English. You know what I you know what I'm saying Adrian and all. >> Yeah. So what about um so we did discuss it on March 3rd. Um we but I do remember at the end of the meeting the discussion wasn't really over. So how about if we just put a new referral so we can make that one completed and put a new referral. So I think I think um your big concern was was seventh and eighth grade, right Andrea? >> Yes. >> Yeah. So maybe we can make a new referral um that says review of ELA curriculum 6 to 8. >> Um yes. Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. >> Um and then that'll that'll kind of narrow that topic down. We can get the 2018 off the agenda. >> Yes. Yes.

165Um so we can if we all agree we can say we talked about that and then we will talk about um so review of ELA writing 6 to8 >> yes you know I don't know you know I thought you know I think that at at some level we decided to just look at the middle level and this just never got changed you know I I I think maybe I'm wrong Emory But isn't that why uh Lauren was Lauren? >> I remember that too. >> Yes. And I and I know I think I if I remember correctly you were particularly concerned with eighth grade and that's why you u wanted to speak with Laura as well. >> Yes, that's exactly right. So that Adrian, thank you. That's perfect. >> All right. Um 38 I'm just gonna

166look at that. I thought we talked about um yeah, we did talk about six to eight in that meeting. Um Oh, and then and then All right. Yeah. And then uh McKenna explained ELA in the at the high school. So, we did talk about uh the high school in that meeting. >> So, yeah, it looks like we got through the whole thing. Um that's just looking back at the minutes. So yeah, if if everyone's in favor, we can just put that that was completed in in um March 3rd and then we'll just add a new agenda item. Should we put today's date on that? >> Yes. >> All right. >> In my view, >> 12125. I'm in favor of that as that deletion or completion I should say and >> addition of a new one

167that's a little bit more targeted. How do you feel about that, Mike? >> I'm good with it. >> Me, too. >> All right. So, any other um comments on the re the referral tracking sheet? >> No, not for me. >> All right. All right. Onward. Future meeting topics. Um I already said I had it up a minute ago. Um our next meeting looks like it's going to be program of studies and then um we won't get too specific out of that because it's a long way but we're going to be talking about illustrative math. Um I think we've been talking about that as the full committee as well um you know or the full board as well but um but that's what we've got um coming up for future meeting topics. Any other uh recommendations

168for meeting topics? I guess >> why don't we put the new one this new one on the new recommendation. >> All right. Yeah, we can we can put it there as well. Um so it gets captured in the right spot. Um, >> I may need more time as the teachers are, you know, uh, we, as I said, we have the, um, we have the two groups or the two kind of resource companies coming in to present and the teachers are piloting, just starting to pilot materials. So, um they may need more time before making a decision and um you know having input um into the resource that they are you know leaning toward or and so I may not January I think is going to be too early for me to talk about that >>

169about which one the curric or the like the writing at the middle level. >> Yeah, the the middle school writing. You're reading my mind because You're reading my mind because I'm thinking, >> well, it just said future meeting topics. It didn't say next meeting topic. Oh, okay. Okay. >> Yeah. We're we're we're just going to put that at the bottom of the referral tracking sheet and um and we'll stick with, you know, January and February, you know. Well, we'll see how it goes, but it looks like it'll be program of studies and then illustrative math. Um [snorts] but we'll um we'll see how things, you know, how things go together. Sometimes we end up losing one of those meetings because of the budget, but um but but that'll be the the future topics. All right.

170Any other >> Yeah. Can we also just put in that um robotics course, the high school robotics course that um they talked about in connection with the manufacturing center. I assume it's going to come through reasonably soon anyway, but maybe put it on like maybe the February meeting and if it gets needs to be pushed, but if they really do want that in up and going, it's kind of I don't know if it I don't know if it could get through actually, but it seems like they want to fasttrack that and it already has a curriculum apparently. >> Um, all right. Yeah, let's let's just put that in the um in the tracking sheet and then we can leave it to Ann Marie to figure out um how soon she wants to talk about it

171after talking to the >> All right. So, that'll just be another um another referral on the tracking sheet for 12125. I don't know if that has to be an official referral. I I mean, if you want to be a referral, that's fine. But if it's really just a course approval, I will track down, you know, I will speak with the leadership team at Fitch, find out um you know, is this going to be a course that's offered officially next year? If it's a course that's already written, obviously that's going to be a much faster process um for the uh course to get approved uh not approved, but for the course to kind of go through the process, the curriculum writing process because um you know it it doesn't have to be written. So, uh, it's

172really just a matter of me kind of working with the team and really just finding out, you know, is it going to be offered next year and then who's going to come and present it? >> Yeah, I like that approach. Just long as it's on our radar screen. >> All right. All right. >> Now, [laughter] >> anything any other discussion on future meeting topics? All right, Andrea. >> Motion motion tojourn. >> Second. >> All right. >> Good night, everyone. >> Good night. >> All right. All right. Good night. Thank you.