001Good evening. Today's uh Thursday, May 14th, and I'm calling this meeting of the Lawrence School Committee to order. The meeting was properly posted um under the Massachusetts Open Meeting Law. This meeting is being held in person and will be recorded and later posted to the um Lawrence public schools um website um either later at the time of adjournment or tomorrow morning. As the vice chair, I will be presiding over this meeting in absence of the chair who will be joining us at around 6:30. Secretary, can you please call the role? Jessica >> present. >> Jonathan >> present. >> Michael >> present. >> Awesome. So at this time um there doesn't look like there's anyone here for public participation. Um, let's go ahead and get into the pledge of allegiance with our flag. It's all right.
002I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. >> Okay. Sorry guys, I'm um not tech challenged, but I'm equipment challenged. Okay. So, we are gathered here today to review um to uh interview two attorneys that were identified um based on the recommendations of the Massachusetts Association of School Committees um and recommended by to us by the receiver. from from between now and 6:30 before the candidates arrive. We will review the protocol which was sent ahead of time. Um before I get started, I also want to note that the superintendent did attend to be present today, but he is actually conducting or hosting the Thuvos council and will try his best to make
003it over here. And um the chair of the committee will also join us again like I mentioned at 6:30. So before us we have protocol uh the protocol of what how the attorney um interviews will be conducted. Given the fact that we have two members that are absent. I would like to open up the floor for nominations so that other members of the committee that are present can ask a second question. >> You vice chair. I do want to nominate myself. question. >> Okay. Is there a second? >> Second. >> Okay. >> Secretary, can you please call the role for the first nomination? >> Yes. Yes. >> Okay. So, before we go into second nominations, um so committee man Guzman does have his own drafted question and then we have a series of questions. Um
004Committee Man Guzman, is there a question that you're interested in asking as a second? >> Yes. So the question that I have drafted into the record >> okay the following >> what is your experience school committee when your legal opinion does not align with the position of the school district administration or the department of elementary >> I'm sorry can you re ask can you restate the question under the mic I'm Sorry. >> So the question is as follow. What is your experience advising a school committee when the legal opinion does not align with the position of the school district administration or the department of elementaryaries and secondary education and how do you support the committee in making informed decisions in those cases? out of the questions that were drafted here, is there a second question
005that So, you're nominated for a second question. Do you want to think about it and then get back? Okay, awesome. And and so I'm I'm open to another nomination for another member to ask a second question. Any nominations? So it's to nominate a second member to ask a second question since as Suz and Mike are not here. So we have equal number of questions. >> Yeah. I'd like to nominate myself to ask a second question. >> Secretary, can you please call the role? >> Yes. Yes. >> Okay. So, I'll go through the protocol and then I will go back to my colleagues um committee woman uh Berdalino and committee mann to ask what their second question will be and then what their first second so that way we can notate who's asking what and we're
006not asking the same questions. So, the interview um again we'll it's implemented consistently across all candidates that um are here will be before us. um I will open up the interview and and so here as we're talking about the overview process of the interviews um committee will agree to which question we'll ask. So we'll do that following the protocol review. Um members will can ask again we'll talk about which questions every member is asking and then the interviews will go for 30 minutes each um candidate. we will not have follow-up questions. Um and then each member should rate um these the questions asked between one and five. And then once we conclude um with the last candidate, we will discuss and determine um which of the two candidates we will be voting on. If neither
007candidates are within our scope of what we're looking for, we can definitely reach back out to the receiver to pull more candidates for interviews. Any questions? Okay. So, at this time again, I'll open up the floor for folks to um let me know let us know which question they're asking. I will go last. So, I'm I'm open to asking any of these questions. I would like my colleagues to get first picks on what they want to ask. Who would like to go first? I I would like to ask question number eight. Um, do you need me to read it? >> Okay, I'll ask question number eight. And um, question number seven. Seven and eight. I would like to ask question number two and question number three. >> One question. I'm going to go with question
008number three. I would like to go with question number 12. and the question that I have drafted. So at this time I will go um with question number one. And once the chair arrives, I will solicit his question that he will um be asking both candidates. Is there any other questions? And we can probably take a quick recess before we get started. >> Um Chair >> chair in the beginning of this uh one of the things that I want to sort of get clarification uh is sort of the last piece in the communication here um of the selection of of the attorney. Um so when we were looking into this process about acquiring our own attorney it was uh directed to us the importance of having our own and where we can dialogue and not
009the Lawrence public schools attorney or the department of education's attorney somebody that we can solicit questions legal questions to directly for some reason um during the last meeting there was indication that because this is not subject to 30B, we don't have to post it. Uh at the same time, the procurement process doesn't have to happen. But overall, trying to figure out the steps that we're doing here rather than posting the actual position or soliciting uh interviews or candidates that could have been from here at home. We it looks like we requested or asked a institution for advice on particular attorneys and two attorneys are before us based on that uh advice from this institution. uh if we don't come to an agreement here, the protocol clearly states that uh the chair would then indicate it
010back to the receiver. When I see that in in this document, it it brings me to questioning um what type of authority do we have as a governing body to do our own process? because it seems that we're asking permission from the receiver to look for additional attorneys if for some reason uh we aren't able to agree here about a selection. So rather than just coming to some consensus as a governing body on what will be the next step, it seems like we are going we could be told what the next step could be if we don't make a selection today. So, if you can sort of clarify sort of the different roles between um what the the school committee supposed to be doing on this selection of attorney, what is the receivers's part of
011this? Um yeah, I'm going to be there. So I think for the record all along the receiver has been open to working with us and supporting us and moving this body forward to gaining local governance. She the receiver solicited re um names or recommendations from an organization that we would typically work with anyway to get additional trainings. So trusting that they would provide us with the most um qualified candidates to support this upcoming school committee um is where we went with those recommendations because we're still under receiverhip. You know, even that's a gray area for me to really understand uh her role and our role and and where we are an independent governing body in terms of resources. We're still vetting things through the school department and she is a receiver. So, this is where
012this is where her involvement um comes in. If we have recommendations, if the this is not the route we're going and we have recommendations, I know that she's open to hearing from us. So, I do believe if we don't go with either candidates that we are interviewing today that we can definitely reach out to her and and say, you know, if we have names that we want to put out there or if if there's other recommendations that she can solicit from um the MASC, I'm pretty confident in the MASC in terms of the support that they provide to school committees across the the state. They've also been um this also came from it was a kind of a question even to Holy Oak and who's supporting Holy Oak through this process. So I I don't
013I think that there is room for um there's opportunity for us to provide a recommendation if this is not the route we want to go. Ultimately we are hiring them. I agree. We have to feel comfortable that we're going to get that legal support that we need. Um so does that answer your question? Okay. Um, thank you for that, chair, vice chair. um for that opportunity to to explain how we came here and and um I I always like to find the opportunity to clarify because what the public is going to be reading compared to the sort of self-governance that we need to sort of figure out because we're still under receiverhip. And and the piece that you mentioned that brings a little light uh into why I'm questioning this is who is paying this
014attorney. At the end of the day, who is providing these resources is the receiver in order for us to uh have this persona uh this professional inform our work. And that's key because that's why I drafted my question how I drafted it because we want to make sure that whoever gets this position can understand that they work for the school committee regardless who pays their paycheck. Right? And the other piece is I'm always going to advocate that when we're spending the dollar of our constituents, our stakeholders, it is critical that there's always an opportunity for public participation and for the public to see the meetings happening. Um I appreciated during the beginning of this meeting you acknowledge poly participation through your right as chair looking to see if there was somebody. So thank you for
015that. But it's really critical that when we're drafting agendas, one that to ensure there's quorum to ensure that everybody is at the table because each of them represent individuals of this community that we are requesting availability from members before calling a meeting. and at the same time that we're sort of respecting the opportunity for the public to question or provide us guidance when we're interviewing people because they might have stuff that we don't have and sometimes it it makes a huge change when you open it up for the public and I know there was some challenges to bring uh key individuals into this space to host this meeting in a way that is hybrid to provide the public uh equal time of seeing and uh these candidates, you know, present to us. Um with that,
016I I I will stop right now. Thank you. >> Thank you, Committee Man Guzman. Uh definitely your uh suggestions, recommendations, concerns will definitely um something that should be taken into consideration for future scheduling. Um I it is it is complex task to schedule um meetings given everyone's you know just recently we pulled for the workshop and even that you can see the variation of and Jenny has more of this information the variation of people's availability so some of these meetings will have to occur that way so that we can continue to move forward always my goal to ensure that we have all members like that's in my the perfect world that I live in But that's not I know that's not there may be times that I may not be present but definitely something that
017we should obviously consider for future future state. Um and definitely agree with you when we're talking about who's representing us and it's it's these funds while they come through the state allocated to the school department from the city as well. Um we're all employees of the Lawrence city of Lawrence under the department of um Lawrence public schools. So, I believe that every attorney that's representing any body within um Lawrence, the city of Lawrence, has to understand that who they're they're they report to or who who they're supporting. So, definitely something that we need to make very clear um through the interview process that um they're not representing the superintendent at that time that they're working for us. And this is why we're not we're going outside of who's already working for uh the city of
018Lawrence or Lawrence public schools. Any further comment or question before we continue? Um secretary, can we call uh the role for uh the chair? >> Present. >> Thank you. Can I get a motion to recess for three minutes? >> Second. >> Secretary, can you please call the role? >> Yes. >> Thank you. Can I get a motion to come out of recess? >> Recess. >> All those in favor say I. Since we're not virtual, I'm just going to call generalized role. Well, I don't think we have to do the role. >> I have it. >> So, before us, we have attorney Terry here. Um, thank you for being here today. So, um I'll just quickly describe what our school committee structure looks like and where we are at um as a school district in terms
019of receiverhip so you understand some context on where the questions will be coming from. So, we are the Lawrence um school committee. Lawrence school public schools is currently under receiverhip. So, we do have a receiver, one um individual receiver. We have a obviously we have a superintendent. We're not currently the authority or or governing body of the Lawrence public schools. We are working towards that through capacity building um working with effective school boards and in building our um governance structure and and understanding on how to govern. Uh we will be going through other capacity trainings which will be in involve uh budget and finance uh special needs uh special education I should say um and just overall open meeting law Robert's rules rules of order. So we're building our knowledge institutional knowledge as well. Our
020structure currently um this was changed last year in in effective uh 2026 where we are com we are um our body is made up of three elected members three appointed members by the Lawrence city council and then the mayor is our chair. So in a nutshell, so we have just just some additional context. We have been in receiverhip Jonathan please correct me if I'm wrong 15 years. >> 15 years. So we are eager uh to bring local control back into this governing body um and uh ensure the student our students are thriving and succeeding um for the future. I am the vice chair of the Lawrence School Committee. I will allow every member to introduce themselves and then we'll segue into the questions. Good evening. My name is Brian Dea, Lawrence City Mayor. Welcome to
021the interview. Uh I understand uh city attorney is not easy job for for many reason you know you know it's sometime attended uh conflict interest but sometime the more uh discussions is uh about what is the uh what is the idea the city have uh versus education. Sometime you need uh take care decision uh or the the better advisor you know and it not easy because you have to party some time and everybody stay together and in one idea it more easy but for many year I'm I represent my community four years ago as uh city council member for four year now six year to to the mayor I less uh last year and I I know it's not easy but I want to say welcome to the city of Oregon in case uh you
022both is fab for you and I want to say thank you for for you interest you know and represent uh is good decision in the city of thank you so much >> thank you >> hi attorney Terry my name is Mike Amano I'm a new member of the school committee. Welcome to the city. >> Thank you. >> Um you we get the opportunity to review your resume. Very impressive. We I I look forward to learning more about you. >> Thank you. Nice to meet you. >> Uh good evening, Attorney Terry. so much. Thank you so much for being here with us today and again for applying uh or showing interest uh to come work with a school committee that is trying their best to uh regain control, governance control in order to serve the uh
023the future of this community. Looking forward uh to hearing more about your intense experience and uh and work that you have done across not only the Commonwealth locally but also nationally. really impressive um impressive resume and overall the school committee you know as the vice chair mentioned has been on the receiving 2011 uh and you know I've been in the school committee since 2020 representing district F and now representing um a large an elected a large school committee member. Welcome. >> Thank you. Good evening, Attorney uh Terry. My name is Donna Berdolino. Um I'm one of the appointed members of the school committee. Uh this is my second time on the school committee. I was on in 2017. Um thank you for coming here this evening. We appreciate your time and I look forward to
024learning more about you and thank you for your interest in the city of Lawrence. >> Thank you. Thank you for having me. So at this time um I will I think it's fair to have you go through your resume maybe five minutes synopsis of what's what your what your experience looks like. We have reviewed it but I would like to hear it from you and then we'll get into questions. >> Sure. Thank you and uh thank you for the opportunity to meet with all of you and thank you for your interest in us. Um so I I've been practicing attorney just this month is 30 years since graduating law school which seems like just yesterday in some ways. Um, I have been practicing in school law area for 28 of those 30 years. My first
025couple years out of law school. Um, I actually worked in house for a couple of unions representing municipal employees. Um, one union that was based out of Cambridge and another one out of Worcester. Um, and then joined my predecessor firm, Myra Okonnell, which is based out of Worcester. Um, while there I decided to really focus my practice on on school law and developing a school committee client base. I'd kind of come in with a little bit more on the municipal side. I do still some some smaller towns, but vast majority of my practice, probably 85% is representing school districts, school committees. Um, and so in 26 years, I'd spent at Myra Okonnell and and became the leader of that group and um really enjoyed building that. And then just a few months ago in February
026this year, I joined Stman, Chandler, Miller um really with the focus of being with a firm that as a whole focuses on school districts. Iraq Okonnell is a very large firm this and I was a very small part of it and I really wanted the opportunity to have another set of colleagues um that do what I do and really are focused on that work um and made the shift over to to Stoneman like I said February 1st of this year um which has been a fantastic change and and just a great group of people. Um I'll touch on it because Mr. Guzman mentioned it. Um along the way I've had some other things that that I do that I think come into this work um that I feel like I bring into it. Um, one
027of which is having previously served on the National School Board Association Board of Directors as an exofficio member. Um, I had been chairing the Council of School Attorneys, which is the national organization representing school attorneys around the country. Um, and so I chaired that group three three four years ago and been on the executive committee for a number of years before that. Um, which was a fantastic opportunity professionally, very challenging. Um, and really created an opportunity for me to sort of get into national level issues. Um I'm not going to claim that I represented people nationally. I don't go to California. My work is here in Massachusetts. Um but it really was an outstanding opportunity um to deepen my knowledge in the area to be looking as much forward at what's coming next and some
028of the issues that are playing out in around the country in more depth. Um and the other thing that I will share with you and I think this may be particularly of interest to all of you. I've been sitting a member of a school committee for 11 years. Um, I'm going into my 12th year um on the Ashlin School Committee. And I share that with you not because I I always say this to people when I talk to them like I'm not looking to become a member of your school committee as well, but I think it's a perspective and an experience that sometimes allows me to think about things in a little bit more of a practical way. How does this play out from your seat? Um, and to have gone through some difficult decisions,
029particularly through COVID, um, challenges with communities at times and and I'll say our community largely has been very supportive. So, I don't want to make it out to be, you know, one of those super challenging things you read about in the papers because it's not. Um, but the experience of being on a school committee being where you all sit right now, um, I think does just provide a different perspective. Um, and I'll give you one example and then I'll I'll be quiet. Um, first time I sat down to do collective bargaining on behalf of my own school committee, I came into the room and was caught off guard. I don't know why, but I was caught off guard to see four or five people sitting across from me, four of whom were teachers of my
030children, right? And fortunately, they were all teachers that I I thought very highly of. Um, and it just gave me that real sense of local connection, right? Which is the thing you have. Um, that's something that you all you're connected to your community in a way your council really almost can never be. Um but understanding the importance of that connection for people in your seats um the relationships that you have. I will say that having done this bargaining um has changed the approach that I take to collective bargaining. It is much more focused on ensuring that those relationships remain solid and if they're not solid that we try to do something to strengthen them in terms of how we communicate across the bargaining table. Um so there's a couple little things. I'm happy to talk
031more about um other things in my resume, just kind of highlight those things along the way. Um but I'm happy to be here. I appreciate the opportunity and um you know, anything that I can do to help your decision um you please just ask. >> So at this time I will open up the floor for questions. So we have drafted qu drafted questions. Two of our members will ask two questions given the absence of two other members that are on our school committee. Who would like to go first? >> Donna is going first. >> My question is um what are the most common legal issues you help school committees navigate? >> So I think specific to school committees um as opposed to school districts because I think that's a little bit of a a different
032answer, but specific to school committees, I think the things that are probably most challenging right now certainly are in the arena of collective bargaining. And I understand your collective bargaining is probably a little bit different right now um and and maybe a little bit less ownorous because of the restrictions that um are on unions. But certainly collective bargaining issues are are have been really hot for the last four, five, six years. Um very public and very contentious in a lot of places. Um and so helping school committee members manage that not just across the table but more broadly the communication strategy because these things are playing out publicly where 10 years ago they didn't. They have them behind closed doors or 12 people in a room and you came out with a deal eventually. Um
033and so I think supporting school committee members in dealing with and in communicating with their communities about what's going on where some things are being presented in a certain way that's been a real challenge lately. Um the other thing that I would say um has become more of a challenge quite frankly um are some intercom committee relational issues um which I don't like I don't play therapist to to clients um but there are times where there are struggles with respecting the bounds of authority um school committee members who um think that they're on school committee and that they have authority to go do things independently and often counsel is brought in to say can you help us understand what an individual member can do, what the authority of the committee is. And so I think
034we see a lot of questions around what's the authority of the committee, what's the authority of the chair as it relates to the other members. Um, and really trying to work through those things to help keep things on track, right? Um, so like right now I have a call on Monday morning with a client where they tried as a school committee to adopt a policy that I felt got into the day-to-day management of a building. I'm gonna have to have a conversation with those folks um about as a school committee that's not really your purview. Um and so there there's I think a lot of advising going on. I think that has increased significantly um in the general political climate. you know, there's just there's just more angst, more energy, um more conflict, and I've
035seen more and more of that where I've been involved in advising school committees aside from all the other day-to-day things like open meeting law compliance and um conflict of interest and and just sort of what I would call the ordinary stuff. >> Okay, I'll ask the second question. Can you describe a difficult school governance issue you have helped a school committee resolve? >> Yeah, I think I mean in some ways I'll go back to the example I gave a minute ago about um really looking at school committee authority. Um and one that I've got right now um without getting into too much you know confidential stuff is is around the boundary of the school committee authority. Um in this particular case the there there was a concern about um what was called the the timeout
036room and you may be familiar with their new regulations forthcoming on that are going into effect soon. Um but there was a concern in a particular community. There had been some parents concerned about an issue and school committee members felt um that in order to be able to do their job they needed to be in the buildings. And we had a circumstance where a couple of them just went to the principal and said we're coming in to look. um and to try to walk that back to recognize the confidentiality issues of seeing students who are in that space um and the disruption because these are students who are already disregulated um trying to advise on the school like this is not your your purview. You know, you you you can get in there, let's work
037through administration and um I'm seeing more and more of those type of issues that I think are are a real challenge. Um there are many other kinds of things that come up in terms of school committee governance not necessarily applicable to you. I see a lot of that with regional school districts. Um there there are sort of questions about what district the regional district agreements get into. I won't go into details about that because it doesn't really apply to you. But in terms of helping people understand the bounds of what the statutes allow and authorize and then being able to sort of say, let's figure out what you really what you're really trying to get to and find a way to help you be able to do your job while also respecting the boundaries of
038the authority that a school committee has. >> Come here. >> Okay. My question is number five. >> How do you handle conflict between a superintendent and a school committee? >> So that was the other answer I was thinking about giving because unfortunately as council we're often in a position where we work dayto-day with the superintendent. That's usually the primary point of contact or HR person, but those are the people you deal with all the time. And realistically, there are times where a school committee is not happy with that person and they turn to us as council appropriately so to advise on that. Um, I don't take sides. I I'll be honest with you, that is not my role. Um, and my role is to advise on a process. And I recognize that when I'm advising
039a school committee on a hiring and firing decision, my obligation is to advise them with fidelity to their responsibility, which is to examine the issue that might be present, whether it's a performance issue, a conduct issue, um, and to walk through that. I've been on the, I guess I'll call it unfortunate position to have been involved in the termination of multiple superintendents over the years. um some of which are very public and some of which are not. Um but I like to say that if I remember that my client is the school district and my responsibility is in in that particular circumstance to the school committee. I advise you directly. I will say as a practical matter, one of the things that can happen um is a school committee might perceive council as being close
040to the superintendent. We do develop good working relationships. I feel like I have that with all my clients. Um, but if a school committee says to me like, can you be impartial about this? What I would do with that is I would ask one of my colleagues who doesn't work with the superintendent to step in and to be the the adviser to the school committee on that. There are pluses and minuses to that, but in my view, the best way to make sure you're confident that the advice you're getting is to present that choice to you, right? So that you can say, you know what, Mark works too closely with the superintendent. we'd rather have somebody we know is just out of avoids all kind of concerns about questions and appearances and then you make
041that decision. I think that like I said there are pluses and minuses to that knowing I know my school committee members there's a relationship there. I hope there's a trust there and so sometimes that's of value in terms of the relationship. Um but it's your call you know if you kind of want to look at that and say let's have somebody else work with that we will. Um, but it's something that happens with some frequency and sometimes it's a the ultimate termination decision. Sometimes it's just managing another issue. Um, right now I'm working with a client where the superintendent's asked for mediation between the school committee and themselves to try to improve the working relationship. And, you know, that's something that I'm I'm trying to help them structure um without getting into a legal framework.
042Thank you. I'm asking here question uh number three on our list for my fellow committee members. How do you help districts proactively reduce legal risks to the school committee? >> That's a I think it's a great question and I and I wish um more school committees and school districts thought that way. What I I'm a big believer in training. Um, I I do a lot of training for clients. Um, and what I'm looking for in that is to really say, look, let's spend a little bit of time, invest some energy in elevating our skill set, our awareness, our thought process to avoid those problems down the road. And what I usually find is I'll go and do a training. Um, I do it more for administration than school committees, but either way, so one of
043the ones I I feel like I've done a lot is on workplace investigations, right? Say an example be a complaint of sexual harassment. I don't do that typically for clients. Sometimes, but typically not. The HR person does it or some other administrator does it, but they're not professional investigators, right? So, there are a lot of questions around that. Um, it's just a think you think about it. An educator isn't trained. They don't they didn't come into the business to do investigations, right? Um, so when we're working with those folks, a lot of questions come up. When I do the trainings, I I feel like they get more comfortable more quickly on that. And what I can tell is the questions that come afterwards are better questions, right? They're seeing more issues. And I think by
044doing that and doing those things properly and recognizing their issues there, you're you're avoiding the problems you step into because you never even saw the issue. Um so I'm a big believer in that. Um the other thing that we do try to do um is put out some timely updates that just inform people of things that are going on in the world. Um, and you know, those are those are the things that I think of predominantly is really focusing on on the training and education that we can provide. And hopefully through our ongoing advice, we're also elevating that, right? Um, I'm question 12 for members. It's the first question and it says, "How do you how do you help a school committee navigate politically sensitive challenges involving students and parent complaints?" >> Yeah. Um, that's
045another really timely question and and it feels like it's becoming a a day-to-day kind of scenario. Um, you know, those those are really tough and I will say to people, look, I'm not I don't play PR expert. Um, it's not what I went to school for, but I feel like I have an obligation to kind of be aware and and have gone to trainings myself for like crisis management just to be able to sort of help people because some school committees do have PR people, most do not. Um, you know, my view is to recognize that in any community, you all are the experts in your community, right? You know what they're expecting from you. Um, I don't live here. I don't know that. And every community is a little bit different. Um, so the
046way I try to support people in this is making sure first and foremost we're handling the issues correctly from a legal perspective, but also with an eye towards and a recognition of the fact that the approach we take and how we communicate about those things, what we choose to communicate about those things to our community is a really important part of the process. More often than not, we're not supposed to be saying a lot, right? We don't talk about confidential personnel matters. We don't talk about confidential student issues. Um, and then there are sometimes where it's unavoidable. Um, I was working with a client that had a a very young student bring a gun to school a few weeks ago. Um, there's just no way that people don't know that and we can't put our
047head in the sand about it. So, you know, to your question about how do I help you navigate? It's a really case- specific thing. Um, it really is, but most of it comes down to to listening and taking time to understand the things that whoever that point person is, whether it's superintendent, receiver, or school committee chair, whomever that person is to understand the perspective, the concerns um, and think about what can we say because your your question inherently brings in you're not talking about just what's happening. you're talking about how people see it and recognizing that however you handle that, you want to show the district and all parties involved in the best light favorable, right? Sometimes that means owning a mistake and committing to improvement. Um, and sometimes that means sharing information as more
048fully than than you might want. Um, there's ne there's never a perfect answer. you know that this is one of those things where you can talk about a lot of options and ultimately what I try to do is get a client to one they're comfortable with because it's not like I said it's not my community I don't know what's going to sound right you guys know that you're the experts in your community and I think the ability to have that just conversation around like what are the concerns you're worried about what's a message you would like to put out there if you can and then talking about how close we can get to something like that >> thank Thank you. And the final question is, what is your experience advising a school committee when your
049legal opinion does not align with the position of the school district administration or the department of elementary and secondary education? and how do you support the committee and making informed decisions in those cases? >> Yeah. So, I think the phrase you used at the end of that question is exactly the way that I try to approach it, which is informed decisions. I, as I said before, I'm I'm not trying to be a school committee member. It's not my role here. Um, I my ultimate goal, I say this to clients a lot, is every decision that's made belongs to somebody here, right? Not me. um it belongs to the school committee in some cases. Right now it would be the receiver, the superintendent, building principal. It belongs to somebody. Um the best that I can do
050is help them make an informed decision. And I'm a big believer in sort of laying out options and talking about what are the possible consequences of going direction A or direction B. Um but one of the nicest comments I got, a compliment I got from a a client was, "No, we like it. You you give us choices and then you let us make our decision." Um, I have some clients that'll tell me like, "What would you do?" And I'll I'll give you that opinion. You I'll tell you what I would do. Um, I'm not afraid to do that. And some people take that and run with it. And other people sort of have a a sort of like, "No, they want to go this way." And that's fine. My job is to help you make
051those decisions, not to make them for you. Um, so when we're we're thinking about things that might be at odds with DESIE guidance or superintendent school committee have disagreements, I'll try to help you understand what the law is, help you understand whose decision it really is. Um, and help whomever that is make a decision that they can say, I understand the consequences and this is what I'm most comfortable with. Thank you. >> So, I did change my question just because I felt like he answered the first question through his introduction. Um, so I'm going to go with question number six. What do you see as the role of the school committee attorney in supporting effective governance? >> Sure. Yeah. So, I think there's um there are different elements in governance, right? There's sort of things
052that are about committee structures. Um how you do things that are sort of more discretionary. Do you want to have a personnel subcommittee? Do you want to have a policy subcommittee? You know, there are some good practices there. Um I have my opinions, but I don't think those are sort of heavy lifting issues. I think the um the probably the area that I get the most questions on relates to the open meeting law. Um because it's very technical. Um I will say every committee makes mistakes on it. you know, nobody's perfect. Um, most people their mistakes are unintentional. Um, my school committee has made mistakes, you know. Um, and so one of the things I think really does help is just like let's work on those procedures, work on the training. This is one of
053the one of the areas that I do provide training directly to school committee members. Um, is to help again elevate understanding on the front end. Um but I encourage people and sort of core core belief on this is please ask the question first right um I always think about like an ounce of prevention and it take five minutes on a phone call to ask how do we do this right rather than um we have an open meeting law complaint now what do we do right that one takes more than five minutes it cost you more money and most of my clients they're they're looking to be compliant they're looking to do things right they understand that that enhances the credibility of the district and of the committee because they're not getting those complaints and you
054know worse if not the complaint but also the finding that you might have made a mistake. Um so you know from my perspective that's probably the the biggest topic that I get into. The other one I go back to a little bit is just generally understanding the scope of authority that a school committee has. Um and making sure understand you know school committees generally and I I do again understand receiverhip's a little bit different but um generally speaking you'll have the authority over policy collective bargaining budget um hiring and firing superintendent right those are the big ones and then there are a couple other little things here and there understanding our authority and sort of all staying within our lanes really is what I believe makes school districts highly functional right makes school committees highly
055functional it makes the relationship with the superintendent highly functional and obviously everybody's a part of that that approach. Um but that's where I think this sort of helping people understand the authority they have and the authority they don't have um is really a core part of of proper governance um because allows you to focus on things that are really within your scope. >> Okay. So those were series our series of questions. We'll be asking the um second candidate the same questions. Um so at this time um we will probably I'll entertain a motion to recess. Thank you for your time today. >> Um once we interview the second candidate then we will reconvene as a committee to discuss what the next steps are. >> Okay. Great. Thank you very much. >> Thank you. >> Motion
056to recess. >> Second. >> All those in favor say I. >> I. >> Always have it. Good evening. Attorney Gomez. So, thank you for taking the time to meet with us today. Um, so my I'm Jessica Ramirez. I'm the vice chair of the Lawrence School Committee. I will go through a just two minute, not even two minute, maybe a minute, okay, synopsis of what we're what our school committee um looks like um and uh where we're at as a district. Then allow some time for you to go through your resume. um at we we have it before us but just give us your >> interpretation of your own resume. Uh and then we will ask a series of questions. We will be asking the same questions that we um asked attorney Terry as well. So
057we are the Lawrence School Committee. We are um we obviously we uh represent the Lawrence uh public schools. We are currently in year 15 of receiverhip. Uh so at this time we don't have local we're not the governing body of the Lawrence public schools. We have one receiver we have a receiver and it's one individual receiver who works alongside with the superintendent. We are currently undergoing capacity building training to gain local governance and that includes um working with effective schools working with uh different pockets of individuals to gain capacity training. We're not we actually haven't gone through specialized training yet. We did go through um charting the course with the MASC um but we will eventually start working on other trainings like budget and finance um spe special education um and um the open meeting
058law to name a few. So our committee um is made up of three elected members and three appointed members that have been appointed by the Lawrence City Council and then the chair is the mayor. Okay. So, at this time, I will open allow open it up to um every member to actually introduce themselves and then um segue into your resume. >> Good evening, uh Attorney Gomes. Gomez or Gomes? >> Gomes. Okay. Thank you. No, no problem. >> Um thank you for coming this evening. Uh we appreciate your interest in the Lawrence um public schools and I look forward to hearing more about you. My name is Donna Berdalino. Um this is my second time on the school committee. I was on several years ago and now I'm I'm one of the appointed members serving two
059years. >> Hi, attorney go Mike Amano. I'm an appointed me member of the school committee just appointed this year. It's nice to meet you. You have an impressive resume. Look forward to learning more about you. >> Good evening, uh, Attorney Gomez. My name is Jonathan Gusman. I'm an elected school committee at large. Uh, and I'm also the clerk for the school committee. I've been in the school committee since 2020 representing district F. This is actually the district where we are in now and through the restructuring the school committee uh was grateful enough to be now serving as the committee member at large and um thank you so much for your the opportunity to do this interview and for your interest of working with the Lawrence public school system and our students and families in this
060body. Thank you. So at this time we can open it up for you to go through your resume before we ask questions. >> Well um it's a pleasure to be here tonight and u thank you for the opportunity uh to to spend some time with you and answer some questions. So um as you know my name is Justin Gomes and I work at Stoman Chandler Miller. I've been at uh SCM uh for over six years um where my practice is um primarily working with school district I would districts I would say 98% of what I do is working with uh public school districts and the scope of my practice is um pretty wide you know I represent school districts to from in matters involving student discipline uh special education before the bureau of special education
061uh appeals bills um as well as school committees and matters of open meeting law, public records requests and of course collective bargaining and labor and employment matters on behalf of districts generally. Uh I find it to be a privilege to work in public education. Uh it's something that I I I came to after spending a few years working in the district attorney's office. So, I worked at the district attorney's office out of law school um in Bristol County uh and served in the um taught in Fall River and New Bedford courts. It's actually where I grew up um in New Bedford. And so um I you know being a product of the public schools you know having educators in my family um I end up coming to SEM having some interest and knowledge about education
062law but really have found it's been a practice area that it's a privilege to work in. There's no shortage of exciting issues. Every day is different. Um and I look forward to getting into what that looks like uh this evening. You know, I I do have had I have some opportunities to come up to the Marramck region uh on occasion. I've appeared many many times in the Lawrence District Court. So, it's uh it'll be exciting to to hear what your questions are and how we be able to assist you. >> So, I will start on that side of the table. Okay. So the first question that we will start with is how do you help a school committee navigate politically sensitive challenges involving student and parent complaints. >> It's a very common issue. Um, and
063I think that it depends on a variety of factors. And there's no one particular way to respond to a parent complaints or a political issue uh that's either hitting your inboxes. Maybe it's somebody that you run into while you're out to eat. But the reality is you as school committee members are confronting that issue very often, right? Um, and sometimes it's more a more discreet issue that gets brought to legal counsel's attention by way of communicating through the chair or maybe it's something that we're all aware is going on and the school committee has to respond to. I think it depends on on what the issue is. Some of the factors that I consider is I often refer to, you know, is this the bell that can't be unrgung? something that everybody in Lawrence knows
064about, everybody's talking about, and the school committee feels like it u is feeling compelled to respond in some way. Um, or is it a more discreet issue, right? Maybe it's a a more intimate event that occurs between either two students or a student and a teacher. And in those circumstances, it may not be appropriate for the school committee member themselves to be responding directly. and we have to direct it to the appropriate uh personnel. That being said, if the school committee member or the school committee as a whole is in the position to respond, I'm typically um advising on what the guard rails and legal risks of making a statement or including such information could look like. Right? So, one is it something that's information that you actually have and and and complete information that
065you're per privy to and you're you're equipped to to make an appropriate statement. Two, you know, what are the guard rails in terms of student privacy, personnel privacy, right? Is or is this a in maybe it's a government or agency investigation in the school district that is not yet resolved. Um there are certain rights that attach to the individuals that access our education and we always need to be mindful of them and we need to be mindful that statements on behalf of the school or by a school committee member could have influence over a future legal position. Um and then and finally, you know, I think it goes to what the will of the member is and what the mill of the will of the whole committee is, right? So I can outline what those
066uh legal risks and responsibilities may be for the school committee, but ultimately it's up to the members, it's up to the the board as a whole uh to make that decision as to whether or not to say something. um all you know while respecting individual members as well as you know folks uh that are involved in having those discussions you have individual rights just because you're a school committee member doesn't mean you lose your first amendment rights or your ability to engage on issues and so I'm always mindful of that as Okay, thank you. Uh the second question is the following. What is your experience advising a school committee when your legal opinion does not align with the position of the school district administration or the department of elementary and secondary education and how do
067you support the committee in making informed decisions in those cases? >> Yeah, I I think it's going to be dependent upon the issue. However, we have the privilege at our firm of having access to a lot of information, information and institutional knowledge by people that have been working in this field of education law for a very long time. We also have very skilled litigators on a team as well. And so I actually ran into a pretty discreet and unique issue uh yesterday and I tapped somebody within our firm and and said, "Hey, I'm dealing with this thing with the Department of Education. It's pretty unique. I've never been in this scenario before. How would you think about this? Right. I think that in many ways your legal counsel um isn't just about advising on legal
068risks or trying to anticipate things or or or engage in professional development, but also they're a thought partner on some of these issues, right? So they can counsel you on on on and try and understand your position ultimately outline what the the positions and the pros and cons are. Um that way if if the the school committee is going to engage in some particular action that's unpopular or perhaps prohibited in the view of the department or or elsewhere then it's prepared to do so in an understanding of what the potential consequences are. I can think of, you know, many circumstances particularly under the last, you know, in the last two, three administrations, federal administrations particularly where Massachusetts public school districts, many of the ones that we've represented have had to take unpopular positions with uh
069the federal government. And in those circumstances, for by way of example, um we need to weigh the pros and cons of engaging in a dispute or litigation with a enforcement agency, whether it be the Department of Education at the federal level or in the circumstance that it seems like you're you're alluding to, whether it be at the state level. >> Thank you. >> Thanks, Attorney Gomez. How do you handle conflicts between a superintendent and the school committee? >> Sure. >> Um I think that they're uh the the best advice I would give in for anybody handling those situations and having been in them is being identify the conflict early, right? um and being upfront about it and respecting the roles and the authority of of the two parties, the school committee and the superintendent. You
070know, as a a school district attorney, we very often are doing day-to-day work with the superintendent and we're implementing the policy and the vision of the school committee that requires also legal advice. And so it is a level of rapport building. I can, you know, think of several instances recently where that's actually come to a head. You know, maybe the public has a a perception of what's going on or the school committee has a perception of what's going on and there's a level of criticism and there's a demand for accountability. Sometimes um the school the superintendent is directly within the school school committee's authority, right? Um, what I've done in those instances is I've just been upfront about it. You know, if I've I can think of an instance in the past week where I've
071been on a phone call where that conflict or that potential or appearance of conflict was present and I've just you you have to name it and you have to tell people you know listen we're not saying this is going to go a specific way or it's not but out of the respect for both parties and you know your privilege your attorney client privilege that you enjoy with me. I want to give you the opportunity to have a fluid and full conversation and I also want to give um you know you know a professional who is is is serving on behalf of the district that courtesy as well. So in that sort of conflict I um that's how I would deal with it and have dealt with it in the past and for the most part
072I work with excellent professionals who are who while they have disagreements are in this this work for the right reasons. Most people get into education because they want to serve kids, right? And that's a a lotable and and envable position. And so um they they understand that component of it. Uh the other sort of conflict that could arise, right, is just conflicts on policy positions. what direction to take the school district on certain on certain issues or what legal position to take on litigation or collective bargaining matter as council in that circumstance. The best thing that you could do is provide as much information as possible to both parties and hope that they're making the an informed knowledgeable decision. >> Thank you. And my second question is how do you help districts proactively reduce legal
073risks to school committees? >> I think there's two major pe major um components to reducing legal risk and been fortunate to have a good team of of individuals at our our office who are able to one provide professional development. Right? That's a huge component of my work is providing professional development not only to school committees but to school staff right so um having work daytoday not only in just advising school committees but also in the day-to-day implementation of policy student discipline special education right execution of those employment or an implementation of those employment contracts some of those things that frankly are outside of the the scope of the authority of a school committee allow us to inform the school committee when when that issue comes up in a in a in a good manner um
074and understand what's happening boots on the ground in in um in the buildings. So professional development is certainly a key component. One thing that we've been doing and I found it incredibly beneficial is particularly around issues of student discipline. Um we've had the student discipline frameworks are very restrictive in in in many manners, right? Um the the laws that were required to abide by at the state and federal level really outline how you're supposed to deal with suspensions, how you're supposed to deal with alternatives to suspension, what inschool suspension looks like, out of school, long-term, and the rights that attach to all of those things. Um I think professional development on issues like that even um ones that are not necessarily within the scope of the school committee are important. Um and it goes to
075that other question that Jonathan that you raised which is how dealing and and speaking with folks in the community. You being able to be knowledgeable about those parameters uh as ambassadors of the school not just decision makers on on behalf of of the school. The second piece would be I would just say be relationship building with with your client. I want a client that feels comfortable calling calling me um and feels comfortable outlining everything, right? It's important that there's a rapport and there's a I have a duty of cander with you and that that works both ways that you feel comfortable sharing all the information with me so we can make good decisions on behalf of Lawrence. >> Thank you. Hi again. So I have um so my question is um what what do you
076see as the role of the school committee attorney in supporting effective governance >> as a a school attorney um particularly as it relates to representing this this school committee. uh it's really furthering your goals and objectives and being able to identify the legal pitfalls or the you know the the the guard rails that may be. I had a a mentor when I was in law school and kept him throughout the years um who worked in state government for a very long time and served as general counsel and he said there are plenty of no lawyers out there. Don't be a no lawyer, be a yes lawyer. Now that doesn't mean endorse everything that you said because everything everything that you want to do but rather be able to identify the like what the ultimate goal
077is what the your client is trying to achieve. Identify the obstacles and the legal issues and help them get there. I truly view that as being my my role as a a a school attorney uh in service of this school district. have the privilege of working with a lot of different school districts that have different visions and and different priorities and um >> so my first question is I have two um what are the most common legal issues you help school committees navigate? >> Most common legal >> the most common uh legal issues that you help school committees navigate. >> Sure. So I I would say my day-to-day is spent, you know, is usually split. So matters in service of the school district as a a general and then matters uh related to school school
078committees. Um mo most of the time you folks are doing school committee work at night and as am I. Right. So that's I do a lot of collective bargaining and um managing of employment and labor relations on behalf of of school uh school committees um and particularly a lot of of policy development and analyzing uh policies. There's certainly the professional uh development component of of direct school committee service work. Um and then what I just referred to generally as open governance issues, right? whether it be open meeting law, public records, um or um helping folks run a school committee meeting well and in a way that is uh transparent and serves their community in in in a good way. >> And last question, can you describe a difficult school governance issue you have helped a
079school committee resolve? >> Sure. I think that the um particularly in this existing climate, I've had to I've worked with a um a lot of divided school committees, right? Um we're in budget season and we're at the negotiation table and we're trying to give educators as much as we can and deal with the issues that they they they have before them. And the reality is we don't know if all of our cities and towns are going to be able to support those things and whether or not it'll be ratified at the table. And that's a huge issue because it's not just a school committee governance issue and understanding the politics and and and the and how to present this to to the school committee. to to make sure that everybody's informed and understands that the
080vote that they're about to take right in and its impacts, but also being able to prepare the school districts for the impacts either way, if it's a yay or a nay. So, I would say that that's one that recently comes to mind. And then frequently I'm issu I'm I'm um advising matters of school governance governance related to school committee responsibility versus superintendent roles and responsibilities and the administration. um particularly in the employment context or if there's uh um a a certain direction that that that the administration is going and how and how to navigate and respond to those matters publicly on behalf of the school um on behalf of the school committee. I think that there's um there can at times be a desire to want to do so, but you're restricted by some of
081those privacy and and and personnel rights that may may attach. Additionally, you're always navigating open meeting law and wanting to have a thoughtful discussion about something, but also maintain um the public's rights when it comes to those open governance issues. Thank you. >> So that concludes the qu the series of questions um that we have. We will now um as a committee um reconvene to discuss um next steps and then we will take a vote on which uh which of the two we will be going with. >> Okay. Great. >> Thank you. Thank you for your time. >> Thank you very much. It was nice meeting you. Entertain a motion to recess. >> Can I get a second? >> Second. >> All those in favor say I. >> I. I have it. A motion to
082come out of recess. >> I'll make a motion. >> Second. >> All those in favor say I. >> I. >> Eyes have it. Members. Okay, I will open up the floor for discussion. Discussion. Do I have any members that have any comments? So, I can go first. So, Attorney Terry seems to have more experience working with school committees and less direct connection or contact with the the school department as a whole. I think attorney Gomes has it's he's a split role. So, I just I worried a bit about multiple hats um within a day. Yeah, I think both both attorneys um definitely bring um expertise to the table. One of the opportunities that I want to elevate here is that both attorneys are from the the same branch or firm um SCM. uh and what
083we heard from both of them during their their comments during the interview was the opportunity of an institution that has years of experience amongst their colleagues. So with whoever we go with today, we kind of have an opportunity that will give us experience within that firm in case um the attorney that we select today perhaps don't have it right. Um, at the moment, uh, when it comes to Attorney Gomez, uh, looking at the extensive experience, um, both in state and federally and locally, something that both of them are bringing to the table, looking into the background on, you know, special education, student discipline, bullying, discrimination, things that, you know, at least I have witnessed throughout the years when it comes to parents reaching out and and then understanding sort of the state level education is
084uh a key component. One of the things that I did notice was that uh the attorney attorney Gomez was on the DESI advisory council. Um, and when it it prompted me to think about how there could be some sort of relationship with the department um to the point of multiple hats. And then for attorney um Terry, you know, I I'm with you on this, especially with the 30 years of experience um and where he mentioned even though he's, you know, he mentioned about the 20 particular years that he was uh on education and has focused on that the first 10 years had been with union and protecting employees. So it's like a it's a a level of I'm representing the people not the administrator and then moving into now I'm representing the the those that
085make the governance the policy right so it's different hats and different times um which is really great to see and then again both attorneys bring um greater amount of knowledge on education, labor, and employment laws. Um, they mention it throughout on collective bargaining, staff, um, student rights. Uh, one of the things that I noticed during Terry's uh, resume was the piece of non-renewal, something that um, is constantly a conversation and the on the ground real work pressure politics and decision-m responsibilities as we do as the vice chair of the school committee in his town. And then um another piece is the navigating of overlapping issues between school, city and towns and and and state. Um he brought it back constantly during his questions about how he has to navigate amongst all of these uh when
086it comes to collecting evidence before providing full options. And then um you know he's bringing a policy development background. Uh he mentioned it in multiple occasions not only as a member of a school committee currently but also when it comes to the regulatory compliance part. I think that's um a good a good thing that can help us especially because we're literally looking into capacity building. And then um I'm a huge fan overall when we have somebody that um goes on a national level um to sort of work and figure out what is working out there and can we sort of look at it in a in a local level when it comes to policym would it fit here and something that both of them brought my, you know, were able to mention that brought my
087attention was how when they're in the process of advising the school committee, they really care about providing multiple options, right? And I think an example I can give of not doing that is when an attorney just brings this is the response, right? Rather than saying this is the response, but these are opportunities for you guys to to seek and grow and rethink how you're doing things. And both of these attorneys uh mentioned that in multiple occasions. Thanks. Um, yeah, great analysis on both attorneys. I I don't want to repeat too much, but just to echo a few things. The national lens is something I also appreciate. I think the wider you go and look at national issues before they become local issues, you have that opportunity to prepare. I like the fact that attorney Terry
088also was sitting um in our seat, so to speak. He has that perspective of what it's like to be a school committee member. I think that's important. the the discussion on legal advice should be a menu of choices was also very important. I did however also appreciate attorney Gome's um 98% of his practice was working with school systems, school districts. I noticed in his resume that he does some work uh with the mass continuing legal education. Um, a lot of attorneys in Massachusetts lean on MLE and it looks like he is a contributor, a teacher instructor for the programs, which means he's involved with uh mass attorneys and he also expressed the fact that he leans on his fellow attorneys in his firm, which I think is very important, not uncommon for attorneys to do,
089but uh by him mentioning that, it's clearly a value that he appreciates. Uh, I like the fact that he spoke about training for school committee members that was outside of the scope. He actually said it twice, I noticed. And that's important because I think it's important to know what the authority of the school system, the school committee members are and what it is not. But it's also there's an appreciation of uh understanding that we want to also be ambassadors of the schools. So although it might not be within our purview, I think it's important for us to have that education. Um so the fact that he mentioned that twice um stuck out to me. He also mentioned is that balance of the attorney client privilege to the school committee uh versus um the legal rights
090of the students. And it's important to focus on if we're looking at student outcomes, it's nice to know that our attorney has that same lens um that um legal rights of the student should be one of the first things we consider when um making decisions. And I'll leave it at that. >> Thank you both. Let me pass it on to Donna. I think we had two really qualified um and gray candidates and I think there was um some commonalities in in a lot of their answers. So I um I think either one of them, you know, is great. They they do have a lot of experience. Um they both mentioned communication. They both mentioned experience um working with districts. Attorney Terry has been sitting on a school committee uh for 11 years. He did mention
091that. I think his experience overall is just more in depth. U but I I do think they were both um very good candidates. So to committee man's um Guzman's point, they're coming from the same law firm. So I think we at some point will get the best of both um when needed and the fact that they're you know a both mentioned consulting someone from their firm on any any um topic at hand or issue at hand um just demonstrates that they're both willing to collaborate not just with the committee that they're representing but also within their their their firm. Any other comments? So, I don't know if you all all rated questions. Um, so we can go based on a point system. Um, or we can take a vote by just naming the last name
092of the the attorney that they're look that they're interested in hiring. Okay. Secretary, can you please um call for the vote? So, I'll entertain a motion to to vote on to approve one of the two candidates >> to approve one of the two >> candidates. >> Okay. Okay. So, the vote is not a yes or no at this point. I mean, I Let's all say I because I think we all approve. We are in agreement of moving forward. If the secretary can call each member to vote, we will be stating the last name of the attorney that we are interested in hiring to represent the Lawrence School Committee. I'll add if we're in a tie then we will we can reconvene and vote again. >> Terry Terry. So, at this time, um, we congratulations to
093Attorney Terry, who has been hired as the, uh, Lawrence School Committee's attorney to represent the Lawrence School's attorney. We look forward to working with him. We will reach out to, um, the receiver and have them move forward with um, Attorney Terry and hopefully we can have them in our June during our June 3rd meeting as well. Before we adjourn, I also want I want to bring forward here at this time that in during our June meeting, while the agenda is not set, one item that was sent to us by the superintendent was the recognition of teachers that are retiring um at the end of this school year. So, um I just wanted to make sure members um are aware of that ahead of time. Um I believe that the office of the mayor will be
094recognizing these members with certificates. Um I will discuss with like I I'm I'm interested in providing our own certificates if that's possible if anyone has questions, thoughts, concerns about that. And then I will also send out a memo to or Clark Guzman can send out a memo to the Lawrence City Council um and state delegation um for um recognition at that time. Any questions, comments before I entertain a motion to adjurnn? >> I'll entertain a motion to adjurnn. >> Second. >> Secretary, can you please call the role? >> Yes. Yes. >> Yes. >> Thank you everyone.