001To approve the agenda. Second. it's been moved and seconded. All in favor say aye. Aye. And that passes unanimously. The chair requests the motion to move into closed session for the reasons stated on the agenda. So moved. Second, it's been moved and seconded. All in favor say hi. That passes and we will return from closed session as close as possible to 7pm thank you. [ CLOSED SESSION ] The meeting is now back in open session and that takes us to introduction of administrative appointments here. I didn't know. Dr. Trice, are you handling that tonight? Yes, I'm going to channel my inner Andy Jenks. All right. Okay. Get your voice going. So, Mr. Chair, at this time we are pleased to introduce a recent appointment to the CHCCS cabinet. Please join me in a warm welcome.
002For Dr. Bob Bells. I was told to keep it short. Good evening, Board chair Griffin, Vice chair Jenkins, members of the board, Superintendent Rice, and to my colleagues on cabinet, I'm honored to join you tonight in my new role as chief academic officer. If you would have started this process in my first assistant principal row, this would be my sixth time coming in front of you. So thank you because I. You know, you've been in the district a long time when two of the teacher of the years from the last couple of years were former students of mine where my class is at Culbreth when I was a seventh grade math teacher for over 20 years. This district has grown from a place that I just came to work to be my family. Speaking of
003family, I wouldn't be here today without the guidance and support of my mom who is here with us today as she's been in town from Michigan helping half of my family learn how to get around on crutches. My wife Amanda is also here and she actually was part of the district for about 15 years. She honestly also could probably write a series of books on the stories that I've been able to come home and tell her over the years. I will tell you teachers and principals have the best stories. She's my rock and I wouldn't be here without her and her love and support. Support. Also with me tonight are my daughters, Michaela and Madison, who keep me extremely busy outside of school and are my proudest achievements in life. Thank you to my family
004for being here tonight and then to my work family who support me on a daily basis. Over the past several years, I've had the privilege of working alongside each of you to help strengthen our teaching and learning across our district. As we move forward together, my focus remains on ensuring that Every student experiences rigorous, engaging instruction supported by empowering educators and aligned systems. I'm excited to continue that work in partnership with you, our schools and our community. Thank you for your trust and collaboration. Dr. Bales, you're from Michigan, correct? And you're known to us. Dr. Trice, you're from Michigan. I see a theme here. Okay, welcome. We welcome you and your family tonight. All right, that takes us to Consent Agenda. I'm sorry. It takes us to public comments. Mr. Link just gave me a
005look like, what are you doing? Mr. Link, I know you're scheduled to speak tonight, if you want to come forward. Thank you, Mr. Chair. My name is Brian Link, and I'm the president of the Chapel Hill Carrboro association of Educators. I rise tonight, first and foremost, to continue the tradition, at least as long as I've been here, when Joel Brown was on the board at this time of year, to remind the public that early voting began today. And it's important in our civic society that, as I have up on my board in the classroom where it says democracy is not a spectator sport, that we use our voice and raise it at the ballot box and to ensure that all elections are free and fair. So I hope all in the community. I know it's
006a generally sleepy election, but I hope all in the community will still exercise their civic right and to turn out and to share what they want for our community going forward. I also want to say thank you and congratulations to Dr. Bales and to your family. We look forward as an organization to working with you as we have for a long time. And I will say, though, you know, there was a team in purple that had a better weekend this weekend than Michigan did. That's right, Ms. Dawsey. Go Northwestern. So just had to toss it out there finally this evening. I do want to thank the superintendent for. And the board for the items that they're bringing forward on discussion and action. And the superintendent's report, one obviously, is right, one that is being done
007to us with House Bill 805. But it's important that we as a community have a discussion around that and to understand where the boundaries are and what the impacts are going to be and how we navigate that going forward. The other item. Item, of course, being the continued story about how we are funded in our enrollment. And it's important that the public continue to hear and understand this because obviously it has major implications for what our staffing and what our programming is going to look like going forward. So as we continue the discussion that began with programming last Time. I just want to thank again for the administration and the board being so transparent and public about where things stand and what will have to happen accordingly. And so with that, best of luck to
008all the candidates who are running. We look forward to working with our three school board members who are running in the future as an organization. And we thank everyone tonight for their efforts. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you, Mr. Link. Is there anybody else here tonight that did not sign up that wishes to speak? Okay, that moves us on to Ms. Cole. I'm sorry, I didn't realize. I thought you were waving me off. No, no. All right. Good evening. My name is Kathryn Cole. I have the pleasure of spending my days with my students and staff at Northside elementary as their librarian. And I appreciate the policy committee recommending that the policies impacted by HB805 be brought to the full board for discussion and action. I'll specifically speak to code 3210 regarding inspection and objection
009to instructional materials. But it's clear that this legislation has impacts that reach far beyond the library and literacy. I think it's critical that we name the burden this law has placed on educators, the trickle down effect it has on larger issues of censorship, and the impact it ultimately has on us all, but particularly those in our community most living in the margins. This legislation sows distrust and lowers the morale of public school teachers who are already carrying a heavy load at the start of a new school year. So imagine for a second that you have a classroom collection of books that you have worked tirelessly to curate so that no matter where they turn, students have access to literature. And now that collection, with hundreds, if not thousands of books, has to be hand cataloged
010into a spreadsheet on top of your regular teaching duties. Hundreds of hours and countless volunteers have already gone into the process of ensuring classroom book collections are made available for community transparency without any clear guidance from DPI hours that could have been spent towards the most important purpose in our building, educating children. And to be clear, this is not normal legislation and these are not normal times. HB805 is an anti trans school censorship bill. This is not about protecting children. This is about keeping critical conversations that teach hard history and books that include identities at the margins away from children and out of our schools. New data reported to ALA's Office for Intellectual Freedom shows that the majority of book censorship attempts are now originating from organized movements with books about race and racism, LGBTQ
011characters, and people of color continuing to lead book bans. And during the 2425 school year, PEN America identified 2,520 book bans with 97% coming forth as a result of fear that school districts had of being out of compliance. Even if the law hadn't been passed yet or didn't call for the direct removal of books. There is a trickle down effect. It is critical that students have access to books that reflect their lives. As we curate our book collections in our libraries and classroom space spaces, all students deserve the truth. All students deserve great stories that reflect and offer visibility and validation. The values that we proclaim are meaningless if we don't live it in our spaces. It's moments like this where the rubber meets the road and we can affirm our values as a district.
012When I stood before you in April, I shared that libraries are sanctuaries, places we can go to feel affirmed and validated. They allow access to stories that offer reflections of our own lived experience or guide understanding of our world and another perspective. While parents have always had the right to make decisions for their families, I ask the board to continue to support our school communities and libraries in providing open access to materials for all of our students. And their right to intellectual freedom is more critical now than ever. Thank you. Thank you, Ms. Cole. Anybody else that did not sign up that wishes to speak tonight? Okay, that moves us on to the consent agenda. Before we vote on the consent agenda, I wanted to just point out that we added an item, letter M,
013which was to appoint Vicki Feaster Fornville to the delegate assembly for the North Carolina School Board Association. And it's a technical addition here, but I wanted people to know it got put on around 3 o' clock this afternoon. With that said, the chair requests a motion to approve the consent agenda. So move. Second. It's been moved and seconded. All in favor say aye. Aye. Opposed. And it passes unanimously. Thank you. That takes us to discussion and action. And the first one is approval of policy code 2310. Who's handling that? Brandy, is that you? Tonight it is. So good evening members of the board, members of the public bringing this policy on behalf of the policy committee. This is actually one of our board policy that speaks to board governance. It was reviewed at our September
014policy meeting during our policy review cycle. And so I bring these changes to the board for any further discussion or action. As the changes have been suggested, it. Board members. The changes here in paragraph A just reflect updates in technology. Basically we. There was a suggestion to remove the requirement that public comment makers state their home address, which is not something that's been a regular practice in any case. And then under number three, there was a request to discuss some more specific language about. The. Boundaries and guidelines for public comment, both in terms of civility and decorum and appropriate topics for public comment. And so we. We have made some suggested language here, certainly open to board feedback. Barb? Yeah, I expressed a lot of this at the policy committee, but since most of you
015weren't there, I'll just do it again. So the paragraph number three, appropriate manner of speech. I. I really don't like any of that. But what I want to focus my comments on is the first paragraph and specifically where we're saying what speakers can offer criticism about and how they should speak. And I think it's especially ironic that we just heard an extremely eloquent critique of the state censoring schools, and we're trying to censor our community, which is what this is. So I have a couple things to say about this first paragraph. So the first is. So it says speakers may offer criticism of school operations and programs. So that's. I don't think we should be dictating that. But even if we are, we should. That's not right, because under this definition, I don't think school
016board policies would be subject to critique. And I'm sure that that's not what we intend. In addition, it's doing too much. We twice say we're not going to allow personal attacks. We don't need to say it twice. I also don't know why we're saying we can't have personal attacks and insults. I don't know how those concepts are different from each other. I think it's a First Amendment nightmare. The description of the speech this proposed policy is seeking is overly broad and vague, and in my view, makes the whole thing really vulnerable to a constitutional facial challenge. So, for example, profane and vulgar language will not be tolerated. I don't know who decides what that is. I do not believe. I mean, at the policy committee, there was a suggestion that everybody knows what those words
017mean, and I do not agree. If you look up Merriam Webster, profane has four different definitions, and vulgar does as well. I think number C, which says the board recognizes the vital importance of listening to varied points of view, is really undermined when we're trying to tell people how they're allowed to speak and what they're supposed to say. This is not a problem. People are not coming to the podium and regularly swearing at us. And I just don't. I don't know what problem it is that we're trying to solve here. And I just, I think it sends the wrong message. It's chilling. This board within the last two and a half years already eliminated one channel for public participation when it got rid of written public comment. And I think passing this portion of this
018policy would be compounding that mistake. And so I very much hope that we do not that we strike that blue part of the first paragraph under appropriate manner of speech. Thanks, Ronnie. I appreciate the comments. I will say I have sat in the seat when people have attacked and made profane comments. And I think when that is directed at students, I would like to have a policy that exists that we can point to that helps us. The board public practice is that we want to model the behavior we want our community to engage in. And any more than we would allow someone to come into a school and you shout obscenities or an administrator. I think that same sort of respect has to hold in these forums. And so I don't agree that this is
019chilling. I think that every public body has some decorum guidelines about what kind of behaviors they will tolerate. And I think certainly when you've been the one that's personally attacked for something that's not inside of your control, when you're offering public service, it feels helpful to know that there is some guidelines to point to about how we expect the community to engage. I know we've had people come and maybe students share their experience or staff. And I'm curious about this last paragraph because it says that speakers will refrain from discussing confidential student information. But if it's that student sharing their own information, that's their choice. So I'm just. That was just my one question. Or a staff member standing up and wanting to make a public comment about themself as a staff member. And I
020just think that we don't stop anyone from doing that as long as it's their child. Although then I begin to question does that adult, I mean, I guess have that right. But that student may not give their parents their permission to share their information, but that adult or staff member can do the same. So that was just my one question about the last paragraph, because it seems like it doesn't allow them. And so I was just. We may want to think about, I would think about as like from another student's confidential information, something like that. Because if a parent wants to come and make a public comment about something their student is going through, they need to bring it to our attention in a public manner. They can. Meredith. Yeah, that struck me as well.
021I would be in support of changing the language to reflect that, I'm sort of somewhere between Barb and Ronnie on the first paragraph. I did wonder. I'm not a lawyer, but I did wonder about First Amendment implications. So I don't know, Eva, if you wanted to, to maybe comment on that a little bit. Sure. So the board has created a public forum for speech through this public comment period. And within that forum, the board may not regulate the viewpoints expressed, but can limit that forum to certain topics that are and can have what's called time, place and manner restrictions, such as, you know, we have a time restriction. We have, you know, you have to give your name, you have to stand at the podium. You know, those are all viewpoint neutral regulations. And what
022the courts have told us is that viewpoint neutral restrictions such as no profanity and even no personal attacks have been upheld by the Fourth Circuit Court of Appeals and other appellate courts. And so, you know, and I do think that the terms profane and vulgar have definitions. They are terms that the Supreme Court uses. So certainly we have to be careful not to draft it in a way that would restrict people's ability to share any viewpoint that they want to. And so part of what needs to be clear is that this is a forum for criticism. You know, we do not restrict it to only positive public comments. Right. But the appellate courts have told us that restricting it from personal insults, from profanity, from vulgarity is permissible. I think as far as the. The.
023Passage about confidential information, I agree that could be. Clearer. I think, you know, as you said, like, people can share their personal experience and, and that's. I don't. I know that's not something that board was seeking to regulate, but I agree that that could be clearer. I think we do ask that people not use this as a venue to air their grievances against individual staff members. We have venues for that. And I think that that was the intent there. But it could be clearer and better written. And just correct me if I'm wrong, Eva, but we looked at other policies and they did not have the information about personnel, other personnel, where you could come to this forum and, oh, that administrator. Yes, yes, it is. It was unique in Chapel Hill to say that
024criticism of administrators is, was singled out as being welcomed in the, in the forum. So that was one reason for taking that out. Eva, can. Can the focus be restricted to items on the agenda of public comment? Because I think I've seen that on another public body recently. So constitutionally, yes, but because our state open meetings law requires that we have a public comment period once a month and. Or that we meet once. That we have it at our regular monthly meeting. I don't think that is not limited to certain topics. I do. Now you have public comment twice a month. Right. And so your second one, you have historically limited to certain topics. And that's fine because you have a. You have a fully open topic, public comment once a month. And is the
025law you're referencing about school boards, as opposed to, say, the county commissioners and the way they do their business, is it a different law? No. No. Okay. As I think I thought I saw on their agenda today, disclaimer at the top. That public comment is restricted to items on the agenda. But I may have misread that. If it's the work session. Okay, so that's a distinction is it's work session. And I think that you're right. And that was your practice as well. Okay. I was one of the ones who asked that the committee take a look at this. And when I opened it earlier, my question was, has this helped me when I'm a chair? Because it's really, you're listening to people and they're emotional, and it's very personal and yet important. And it's like,
026do you. You know, my tendency was, well, I'm going to err on the side of allowing it rather than prohibiting it. But it's a tough call at times when it gets very personally focused with names or positions where obviously everybody knows who the speaker is talking about. And it's like, that's not what. That doesn't feel right. As this is our school board meeting meeting. We're here to conduct school business. And this seemed to get way out there. And so I asked myself, did this clear that up for me? And the answer was, it got closer. But maybe it's like the more you try and clear things up, sometimes you box yourself into corners that aren't very helpful. And after I read it, I just felt like it's a good attempt and I appreciate the effort,
027but I don't know if I had more direction or not. And I'm sort of speaking to everybody like, that's a question. Did this really help answer our problem, which is, where does the speech cross the line for this meeting? And I couldn't answer that very clearly. And maybe that's because it's not possible to do that in writing if somebody can help. Did you all on the committee, is that, like, this must have been a challenge to try and figure out how to fix this. And yet it's a slippery fix. Well, I would say we got to about this point in the committee and then said we should have this discussion with. We didn't reach an agreement at the committee. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's a sensitive area, but it's difficult because it's not just cut
028and dried where you can say this is this. And I don't want us to enact a version of this or go down a road where we've said something different. But it really hasn't solved much. But I don't have anything. And I hesitate to even say that because I don't have. Like, here's what I would suggest. I think these are difficult discussions because it is, to Barb's point, our intent is to have a forum where people feel free and comfortable to speak about issues. And I think the how is really important. That's why I feel really strongly about this language that we've included. Because when you don't have any guidelines, you can be very disrupted. And the goal of our work is to. To hear from the community and be responsive to what they're bringing to
029us. And if you have a situation where it's a very disruptive speaker. And again, it can be disruptive, can mean different things to different people. And so it is a bit tricky and it's hard to say any policy, but I think you've got to just sort of put the boundaries there that we want to have a meeting that is respectful, that engages in a way that we can hear everybody and is not disruptive. So that's, to me, the kind of meat of this policy. These paragraphs. I can also say we talked a little bit about. We didn't want to usurp our processes that we have in place for bringing grievances. And so we do have human resources, which is where you're supposed to bring any kind of staff grievances. And when you create a system
030where they can move past that quickly will kind of circumvent your systems that you have in place. So there was some discussion about that, too. Want them to at least try human resources. Any other comment or question at this point is what we've been asked to do was to approve this on first reading or some version of it. But I don't feel like we're getting any real close to a version at the moment. So should we send it back to policy Committee and just see if it can be refined some? And I admit I understand you. You got to the point, Mike. I Hear you. I wasn't trying to say that we wouldn't visit it more. I think we felt like we wanted more input. Maybe hearing this discussion could help provide. Can I ask
031for a little bit of clarification? This is asking to all of us. It sounds like we're okay with the second paragraph and the third paragraph with a little bit of clarification about the confidential stuff. And it's really the first paragraph that we want to have more discussion about. Yeah. Okay. I'm just checking to make sure that. And I think it would be helpful to hear more from other board members about like what else or like how would we. Because we did this as a politic meeting. So I don't want us to go back and just reiterate what the three of us talked about. So like it would be helpful to hear from other board members sort of what other elements you think would be important to be included. So when you say that are you
032like asking now or were you going to like literally solicit? Now would be helpful. I think now would be helpful. No, I don't mean right this minute. No, I mean right this minute. Yeah, because they don't say anything now. They're going to go back to committee. Committee and say, well reason didn't say anything. So. I got you. I definitely understand Barb's concerns about limiting, but I think I agree we want to be careful that we don't leave the door open for people to come in here and just start yelling expletives at us for three minutes straight. That's just improper. That's not public comment. That's just abuse. So I quite honestly, I'm okay with that language in the first paragraph, the last sentence, I'm plus or minus on that. But definitely, you know, the refraining from
033the personal attacks and insults, you know, I think that's, I think that's an important sentence to say. I don't know. Go ahead. Yeah. The only thing is that's already in the version that is policy right now. Like the, the black. This, the part that has the strikethrough that I guess is part of the current policy. Complaints about named non administrative staff, students or parents should not be voiced in open session. The chair will direct the visitor to the appropriate means for board consideration and disposition of complaints involving an individual. Obscene, abusive or defamatory language will not be tolerated. So I feel like what you just voiced is already sort of covered by that language. Yeah. So Eva, to her point, if I'm chairing a meeting and that we have this sentence, let's say we don't
034have the sentence about language, profound language, and somebody just starts going off with a lot of profanity about something and I say that's inappropriate. Am I on good solid grounds to ask that speaker to refrain from talking like that or if it would be. Better if you had a policy, then. If we have the sentence in there, is it. Am I stronger to have said that? Yes. And Right. That this is in violation of our terms, of our policy, of the terms under which we open up this public comment forum. I think, you know, to profanity generally would be. Profanity. Right, right. Words you're not allowed to say on television. You know, words that are tricky and then vulgar generally is understood to mean having a sexual content of some sort appealing to the prurient
035interest. Well, so I mean what you're saying is better to have more in here and then the board chairs discretion and kind of go from there than to not have it in here. What you want to avoid is discretion because the way we make sure everyone is treated the same is by having the rules written down, I think is the idea. Yeah. So that. I'm curious now that I'm looking at the language, why did. Why was the suggestion to go with profane and vulgar and not leave an obscene, abusive or defamatory? I guess in the committee discussion, I think there was a concern about saying the same thing multiple ways. And so that is how we ended up with. We had profane, vulgar and abusive. We took out abusive as part of the committee discussion.
036I felt that defamatory is a bit. Too broad. And eye of the beholder. You know, I mean, there is a legal definition of profanity, but most people don't have that at hand. And so that is, that is how we came to profane and vulgar as. Terms that are. Understood to mean use of profanity or use of sexually inappropriate language. But. Well, let me just say that this one is one that if a speaker gets up here and just starts going off on a school principal, can I just tell them that's inappropriate and they need to stop? Because I tried that once and got to kind of look like as we talked about it, you don't. It's a marginal call. And so it's very difficult to know what. Well, I don't. I think it's the word
037inappropriate. I think either it violates the terms of the forum or it doesn't. And so that's. So if by inappropriate do you mean that's in violation of our Policy. Well, I'm just like, somebody starts off talking, but pretty soon they're clearly talking about Mr. X at school A. And they're just saying, that's the worst person I've ever met. And I don't know why you people trust him. And I'm thinking, this is not what a school board meeting is about. Well, so under your current policy, that would not be allowed. And yes. You could ask them to restrict their. Copy at the point I'm giving you. Yes. Yeah. And so the chair really needs to step up and kind of test the limit of our policy at times. Well, yeah, if it starts to get heated
038like that. Yeah. Yes. You. You can ask them to return their comments back to what's allowed under policy. And the way it was written, you know, before we could do that. Right. Or is this better? So. No, not for administrators. Not for administrators. Your policy specifically said you can air complaints about administrators, just not about other staff. So one way to address that would be to just take that word out and just say complaints about staff. That may. Would make sense to me not to have a special class where it's okay. Yeah. Or. I mean, I want to be clear that I think we should protect our staff and that people should not be able to say by name certain people that they have issues with. I mean, I don't have any problem with that
039aspect of this or identify. Who they're talking about, because by name or the principal of X High School, everybody knows who it is. I mean, I. Yeah, I. Is that the same thing? No, I don't think it is. I don't think it is the same thing. Everybody. It's. In reality, it's the same thing. Right. Well, I don't think it's the same thing, legally. Okay. I mean, I'm asking. I'm not challenging you. Yes. I don't think it's the same thing. But. But I guess for me, what I'm really most uncomfortable with is this idea that people can't say stuff to us and that we're policing how people talk to us and we're acting as if everybody knows what these words mean, and I don't think they do. I'm sorry. I just. I think this puts the
040chair in a really bad position of being the like word, the word, the vocabulary, police in a way that could end up being extraordinarily elitist. So because people talk all different ways. Vulgar. I'm sorry. The first four definitions don't have anything sexually. How is like, I think assuming that elitism has something to do with how people talk. Like, I don't understand that connection. Maybe people have different. Yeah, but I think people know how to talk in public forums where they're trying to communicate an issue in a public body, that they might talk differently than they do in another forum. I don't think these words are defined enough to give people notice of what they can and can't say. So I don't think they. I don't think putting these two words in here solves any problems.
041I think it creates them. Are there other comments, Eva, are the. The definitions that the Supreme Court has upheld, are they accessible enough that they could be included, that the wording of it could be included? No. I mean, we can certainly. I mean, you can find. Bring that to us when we talk about it. I think it is. Yeah. I mean, these are terms that they use. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I was just wondering if it. If it was accessible enough that we could add it to the policy, and that would be clearer, because I think. I mean, I agree with Barb's last name. I'm not sure that I would use the word elitist, but I think I get the intent of what she's saying. And this comes from a place of being a schoolteacher for
042a very long time, is that one person's interpretation of what is disrespectful can be very different from another person, and it does have racial biases that goes along with it. And so even without meaning to, I think a person who is tasked with trying to decide whether someone is being disrespectful, there's bias involved there. So I think that's where you were headed with that. And I think that's why we took out the disrespect. Right. We tried to be more specific about profane and vulgar. Yeah. I mean, certainly we can define vulgar. You know, if we're looking at, like, language that is sexually explicit or. I. Think that profanity, I feel like, is widely understood. It's prohibited in your code of conduct for students. In this discussion of the policy initially said personal attacks, and so
043we were trying to define attacks, and so that's how we got to profane and vulgar. And again, we took out the word abusive because we did feel like there was some repetition there. It still does have personal attacks in it, though. So we should. Yeah, that's what we're trying to look at. But the second part tries to define. It a little bit more. Mike. I don't know if we've helped the policy committee or not here. I Think where it's headed is we're sending it back and you're taking into consideration the discussion here. Yes, and I think we'll take the conversation tonight and use it to craft another version that we will then bring back to the full board to look at again and discuss more. I'll be honest. I'm fine with this language. In the
044first paragraph, I get we're trying to figure out what people mean and don't mean, but. But I just think about when people show up to court in other places and I hear judges correcting them under decorum. It's a public setting. And again, this is for public speech. People write whatever they want and they sure do to us, so. And there's no look at policy. Hold on. I don't think there's a limit on what they can put in the. I mean, based on some of the emails I've seen, I do not think there's a limit on what they can write to us. Right. Cause we can't stop them. But this is like real live broadcast out there for people to see, including children. Right. Our students can watch this, too. So I think we don't have
045a sensor button. And so somebody starts cursing, we've got to have a button policy to push to stop someone from just going off and being inappropriate. Because we might have our students watching this because they are free to watch this if they still want to, and they should. So I'm. If it helps you, I'm actually okay with this. And if Eva says there's no constitutional issue and some of the words that we've been using have been upheld, I'm fine with it. It does put us in an uncomfortable situation that we may come to a day where we're looking at each other as board members and saying, this one's on the line. What do we. Thank you. Anybody else want to. Ronnie, go ahead. You just turned off. I was going to ask. Is the sentence
046that is most concerning. Barb. The personal attacks or insults directed at the board. Whole paragraph. That's in blue for me. Speakers may offer criticism that one, in the interest of maintaining civility, and then profane. The whole paragraph. The whole first paragraph? The whole first paragraph. Sorry. Yeah, but I'm fine with the second. And the third. The laws and policies and the speakers, including students. Did you have any. Okay. Is there anything more to provide for the committee? The only thing I would say is that I'm not wild about the first paragraph. I think it is too broad. But I do think, as I pointed out before, that some of that is already adequately covered. Maybe we could add one or two words to the current version, but I'm not sure we need. I just. I
047do agree that it puts the chair in a difficult position of being the arbiter of this. That worries me a little bit. And then what's the remedy? I mean, I don't want to see people dragged out of here. I mean, I don't think that sets a good tone either. I'm not sure I don't know the right answer here. One of my first thoughts when I saw your work, the recommendations here was back to my classroom days where I was taught that you set classroom rules for behavior in place so that learning will occur. Not you set rules that are negatives. Don't do this, don't do that, don't do that. So, you know, we will listen respectfully when our peers are talking is a way. Because something good is going to happen if the kids follow
048the rules. And so I was kind of looking at here, is this a sort of. We're trying to have a board meeting here, and we're doing the public's business. And so we need some expectations of everybody, including speakers, so that we can conduct our business. And that's kind of how I read this. And I thought maybe we should focus a little more, but get the same content in, but focus a little more on. The purpose was to maintain civility and whatever order here. You know, speakers are reminded to do this, this, and this. And when they choose to do the opposite, then the can step up. And I thought, nah, maybe I'm getting a little too much into the classroom. And the boards are different than how you set class rules for your fourth graders
049or something. But it's like, you know, we're trying to set an expectation. We have it in our code for how we interact with each other. In our policy of how board members interact. It's not what we don't do, it's how we're supposed to interact. Barb, you've got a. Okay. Meredith, can I just. I just want to get clarification. So when you're saying the old policy, you mean that paragraph at the bottom that's struck out complaints about named. You would say bring that back or. I mean, I don't know that I was necessarily just. The last sentence of that passage that you just pointed to obscene, abusive, or defamatory language will not be tolerated. That is the current. That is part of our current policy. So to me, maybe with a slight tweak, that could be
050sufficient. And I say could because I could be swayed one way or the other. But. Can I speak to that? Sure. It's my understanding that in writing the blue part, they were trying to replace that sentence. And, I mean, Eva spoke to the fact that, you know, like, choosing a couple of those words, but I think taking the last sentence, tweaking it, is how we arrived at the blue thing that we have now. So that. Yeah, just got a lot longer, a lot more. I just think. I do think the more words you add, the more confusion sometimes. Yeah. If you just look at that last sentence as being the last sentence of the first new paragraph, the one with a little bit of green in it, profane and vulgar language will not be tolerated.
051That's the reworking of the sentence down below. It's actually shorter than it was before. Right. So I guess what I have a problem with is the sentence that's before that and the multiple sentences. And, I mean, maybe problem is too strong a word, but I have concerns. But about the attacks and insults part of it or the. Yeah, just. Yeah. Okay. Okay. All right. Okay. I feel like we can take all this. So I want to be clear, because, like, we've got kind of two opposing points on the. On the committee, and so I want to make sure we're taking back something that gives us enough meat to have good conversation in the committee. So, like, what I hear you say, Meredith, is you would take out the speakers must refrain from personal attacks and
052insults directed at the board. That sentence. Yeah, I mean, I might say the board, you know, requires that we maintain civility and decorum by prohibiting profane and vulgar language, you know, in public comment or something like that. So you could leave. I mean, I don't have a problem with the promotion of civility and decorum. It's just where it gets very specific that I start to get a little more uncomfortable. And what about the point about administration? I mean, I think where personnel, confidential personnel information is concerned, that, you know, that it could be problematic to name specific people. So I would be okay with that. And it looks like this in that second paragraph. We all agree that it kind of stands up. So, yeah, that part. What Barb said resonated with me about. I
053do draw a distinction between names and roles. I mean, I feel like it. I don't know, I feel like there may be some context where bringing up or saying that, you know, they've exhausted all other avenues and they feel compelled to make public comment because some. Something is going on. I think sometimes that's their Only they feel like that's their only recourse. But, yeah, I'm not wild about people naming specific staff names either, because I think we have to protect staff. I do get worried about saying if they've exhausted all other things, because that assumes that they have followed the process. So. And the process is posted on the website. It's posted on the website under public ways to bring concerns or something. So it's there. And so that's my one concern about. And I
054think, Brandi, I think you said about circumventing the process and not allowing, you know, for an issue for student or staff, you know, people don't at least give the staff or the whomever, whatever it is, the school, the opportunity to address it. Right. I think that the concern about that animates all public comment policies that address. This is not the forum for bringing a complaint against an individual, is that the individual doesn't have to respond. And. And that's fundamental to, you know, our public employee system. And so that is why we have a forum for people to make complaints against individuals and for those to be addressed. But that public comment, that. That's not why we have opened this forum. It can get difficult because certainly you can come here and criticize someone's policies, you
055know, or like the policies of a certain school or how a certain school handles, you know, PTA meetings or whatever. And that may. People may view that as criticizing the principal of that school. But I do think that is a distinction that frequently we're able to make between criticizing policies enacted by a person versus this person. You know. I think I would be clear in a case like that where if somebody's criticizing the policy or the rules or the way things are done, when they stray over the line and start saying, and that person's the dumbest human being on earth, then all of a sudden, it's gotten personal and we're not talking about policy anymore. And I think those are like, yeah, so we don't want to lose that ability to say, you're out of
056line here, sir, and please. Or ma', am, and please direct your comments back to the issues. And it doesn't come up often, but, boy, when it does, it gets tricky. You know, looking at the most recent 4th Circuit decision on this, it might help. You know, what the court has said in multiple cases is that this is a public forum, but it's a limited public forum. It is designated for. It's here for a purpose. It's not a street corner. And that you can impose rules, reasonable Restrictions to further the forum's purpose of conducting public business. And the policy that was upheld in this case was a school board public comment policy that said we do not allow comments that are harassing or amount to a personal attack against an identifiable individual. And so that's certainly
057language that we could use. Eva. I like that. Because it doesn't have to be named. We are a small district. If you say the principal at X school or the fourth grade teacher at this school, you may not have the name, but you're gonna know there's only X number of fourth grade teachers. Right. And so then you're gonna put them in a position. And like you said, they're not gonna have. They may not be at this board meeting. They're gonna be sitting at home, not even watching it. And then they're going to be on the spot. They aren't going to be able to stand up after that public comment and comment back to defend themselves. And this is also not the forum to, you know, adjudicate whatever's going on. Yeah, and I think the word
058personal is doing some work there, because even though that is hard to define sometimes, that is the distinction between criticizing a personal attack versus criticizing policies that someone has enacted or practices or whatever. I just. I think that being said, we can be more protective of speech than the Supreme Court has said we have to be. Right. And I guess I also feel like I don't want us to misread the mood of the community. And I'm not sure the community wants us to be telling them how they should talk to us. I think we've already eliminated a forum for them giving feedback. And this just feels like. I think there was one meeting where there was an administrator who was attacked by name, and I think that was not good. And I think this is
059a response to that. And I think that part is good. But I don't know where what the issue is about individual board members. Like, it just seems sort of tacked on, and I don't know why. So, again, like, what is the problem we're trying to solve? Like, we spent 45 minutes on this. We have to talk about enrollment. And I think we should be welcoming. Like, speech is good. More speech is good. I would also argue that us having a debate about this topic is worthwhile and that I don't care how long it took. Right. I was also going to agree that I don't. I don't mind if we take out board members out of that paragraph because I think we stand for election. We are public officials. We expect to receive criticism, But I
060am going to continue. Would encourage the board to not allow people to come and disrespect whatever that means to people, our staff in this forum. But I do think we need a protective board. We don't want somebody to come up here and start personally attacking physical characteristics, race, gender or whatever of a board member. I think that's generally covered in kind of like profane and vulgar. We assume. But if we remove individual board members, it's not. So then you get into. Right. That's a good point. About. Like, do you want to add more language about. I don't know. Then we could be here for another hour. Discussion. I mean, I think the personal tax. I hope that's generally understood that you can criticize the board. Right. The board. You guys made a poor decision on
061policy. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9. Great. Come and tell me we did a poor decision on that. But don't come in here and say you beat the right. That's not okay. That is not helpful for us to conduct our business and make decisions that are in the best interest of our students and staff. So I think I'm fine with that personal attack sense. I would rather. I'd just rather leave that in. I get it. Our community is generally okay, but I think the culture of this country is not. That's a good point. Do we feel the policy committee members feel like we have enough to at least go back and have a discussion and bring something back? I do. I think. Ronnie, you were still feeling like gathering more. Yeah. I
062mean, we will probably come back and have a similar discussion again. So, like that's where I wanted to try to get as much as we could because I think there are some number of us who are OK with what exists today. So I want to make sure we understand where there are nuances that other board members want to represent in this document. So I think we could probably take back what we have. We may be doing another hour at the next. Barb, do you agree that we have enough to take back? Okay. I'm asking partly because I'm not sure if this is going to go back to me or not, if that makes sense because. Right. It might be that the people on the policy committee are making this decision without me. So I wanted
063to make. I don't want to be the sole person who said, oh, yeah, I have all that in my head. Yeah, we'll call you. I'm going to move it up on the agenda. It'll be there next week. I'll do it next Tuesday. Yeah, good luck. Okay. You're not this one. All right. I think we've maxed out our talking points for now, and so we'd send it back to Policy Committee. And we do appreciate all of you that work. It's a difficult subject, obviously. With that said, we'll move on to the next item, which is B. This looks like policy night. Yeah, it is. This is election of officers. Brandi. Correct. So, yes, this is another policy being brought to you from the Policy Committee. There was some discussion about this policy at policy 2200, election
064of officers and organization of the board. At our September meeting, the conversation around this policy, we landed right back here to have another discussion about it. But I would say that the majority of the conversation was about the one sentence, that the chairperson may serve only two terms in succession. Absolutely. And just to be clear, and I've told people we've talked about it, I'm the one who raised the question to the Policy Committee. I'm finishing up two terms as board chair, and we have a sentence in there that says, you cannot succeed yourself after two years. And I'm going to say don't read anything into my comments in terms of motive or plans, but I know nobody will believe it. But if I were to say that. But it limits our options, and I. Will
065say the one thing we discussed is that it is not required to be there. So that is not required language. Right, Right. It's our local choice. Correct. Put in, we think in 1998 or earlier. Right. I was gonna mention that, too. It was adopted in April of 98. And there was a little bit of discussion of trying to figure out what the board might have intended back then, but that ended up feeling like kind of a futile gesture. So I'm not here. I'm not here to push one view or another, but it does limit our options of who can be the chair and not the chair. And I'm also happy to just be quiet and let you guys ask and do what you wish. Yeah, Meredith. I just have, like, a very simple comment about
066it. Like, as a matter of course, in terms of public policy overall, I'm not a huge fan of term limits. I think the voters of any, whether it's a community or the country or what have you, I think are really the people who determine the limit of anyone's term, you know, depends on. I mean, ask me again if Trump decides to run for another term, and then maybe I'll take a different stance. But. In general, I don't like term limits. So I would be, you know, I would be in favor of not having that limit. Anybody else? Well, I would. I'm sorry. I. I mean, I said as much in the policy meeting that I feel like whether it's there or not, I mean, the. The board still votes, right? And so if we took
067it out and the board felt that two terms was sufficient, then the board should vote for someone else. Right? Anybody else. And I think that I would just add on the distinction between this and other things, because I disagree. I do believe in term limits, but for this, this is like a subgroup with a limited pool of people. You only have seven people. We have everything. Right. We've got this plus everything else. And we have committees, too. And so I think that's the challenge. Just like we've got seven people, and serving as chair, that's a whole different thing. And some people may be like, I'm just really focused. I just want to be on policy. Cause I really, really love discussing policies, like public comment policy. So, you know, so I just want to stay
068on this committee my entire four years, eight years, or 20 years on the board. Right. So, I mean, I'm okay with it. I mean, I think, again, everyone has an opportunity to say they want to do chair or vice chair or be on a committee or chair a committee. So I'm fine with removing it unless other people feel really strongly like we gotta, like, try to change leadership and things like that for the interests of the board. But, you know, I mean, I've seen it where some board members have never served as a chair in past, you know, in the past years, and that's up to them. Ronnie, were you gonna say something? Yeah. I'm kind of indifferent to the change, but I will say I think there is a lot of value in having
069different people play the role as the board leadership. And so I am typically not one who favors, like, a longer term extended person in that role. So I would just. I think, you know, there's. There are opportunities for board members to grow in leadership. Sometimes it can feel intimidating, But I think there's a lot of value in having different perspectives be represented in leadership. So I would encourage the board, whether we change this policy or not, just to be thoughtful about that. Ronnie said something very similar at the policy meeting. And I've been thinking about it since then, and I'm putting it together with the idea that we were trying to imagine what the intent was of the people who wrote it in 98. So. So I wonder if we could put in here that
070we would suggest or encourage that it changes up, but it doesn't have to. And then future readers would know a little bit more about what we were thinking at the time. What are your thoughts? How are you guys thinking about wording? And I know I'm putting you on the spot, but. Yeah, no, I was thinking that too. We would strongly encourage, I think about other organizations in our district. They do put term limits on that leadership because it is a lot of work and you want to kind of compel the rest of the membership to step up and share in this work and like Ronnie said, to learn from it. Because it is different to be, you know, chair or vice chair of the board. I can tell you from being non chair and vice
071chair, it is different. The work is different. But yeah, I mean, if you guys can think of some great language to encourage the rotation. The only other thing I would say is that the board does have a board handbook, that we could add some of that guidance language there as another alternative to the policy as well. I will say the other thing is the way that we do elections can be tricky for people to get elected. So I also want us to think about like process as part of this. But I'm sorry, process that you think should be codified in policy. Not necessarily, but just maybe in the way we look at that process. Like are there opportunities to do it differently so that more people might have opportunities? Ronnie, in the interest of full
072disclosure, so nobody's surprised tomorrow. So I have been working on a proposal for the board to address just that, the process of election to make it a little more fluent. That was holding it until we had this discussion tonight to send it to people. And it doesn't necessarily have to be policy. It can be something we just vote on to make a change and try it for a year and then could put it in policy down the road. So there's not going to be a sense of urgency. But there is a time limit with December 4th coming up and because I think your point is well taken and we want to make sure that we're as open and it actually involves putting everybody's name out there rather than one person at a time, including Ronnie
073Dawson. Absolutely not, but thank you. No, I just wanted to say that. So you don't tomorrow think, oh, George went home and wrote this tonight. No, that's helpful. Yeah. Barb, I just want to say I agree with Ms. Reeves point about we could put it in the board handbook. Well, I. Because I just think we should have stuff in the policies only that's like enforceable. I got it. So the. I guess the best I'm looking at the proposed resolution on the abstract was that we have some sort of motion here to take some action tonight. So it could be a motion to. Delete the sentence. Delete the sentence for first reading. And then it would come back with that sentence deleted for final adoption on second reading. Right. Do we wanna put some language pointing
074people to the handbook? Just a thought for policy committee, since we set it here to give them. Some guidance, I would encourage that visa. Okay. Thank you. Do you wanna include that in your motion? I'm not gonna ask. Like a motion to remove the term. Reference to term limits in policy 2200 and to add a reference to the board handbook. So moved. A second. I knew you were going to do that. Is there a second? Yeah. Sorry. Can I ask a clarification? Is it to the policy handbook or are we putting the language in the policy that the board values rotation and diversity and board leadership. I understood that to mean we would just mention in the policy that the board has adopted a handbook for internal governance. I think it could be important to
075put in the policy. It's a board value, which is kind of how we set our policies. Right there. I'm sorry, so what are you. So can you offer some language then? No, but we can in policy committee. Yeah. So I guess the motion that passed was to bring it back here for second reading. So if you want. I don't know if it passed because. I have a question that was made. We haven't voted. We're still discussing. Yeah, we were doing discussion. I'm sorry, There is a motion on the table for. For doing the three things you mentioned. I was just going to add on to what Ronnie said a minute ago that many of our policies start off with framing sentence. That's about our values and what we believe. And so I think it wouldn't
076be out of line to have a sentence in a. That's not exactly enforceable, but it. And I feel like, again, for future readers, like I was saying before, you know, I think it does give a little more meat to what we're trying to do. So is, are we amending the motion at this point? Yes, we have to. No, we have to vote down the. Motion and just start over. You can vote down the motion or Reza could agree to amend her motion if the person who seconded it also agrees. Yes, I agree to amend my motion. Okay. I do also. All right. So, Ronnie, what's our motion? We're going to strike the sentence referring to the two term. Yeah. So I think we remove the sentence referencing term limits and we add the context framing
077of the board values, diversity and experience across board members and leadership positions. Then we'll polish it. Yeah. Okay. So we have a clear enough. So did you move that motion? I move that. I second that. You got it. I think we all kind of know what we're saying, but yeah, I'm fine with that. All right. Is there any further discussion? Hearing none. All in favor say aye. Opposed? It passes unanimously. Thank you. I thought this would be easy. Wait for the next one. Now we're down to the long policy codes. The long list of policy codes. I'm not going to read them all right now, but Dr. Bales, is this one coming to you? This one's me. So, yes, instead of bring one policy, we're going to bring four. After talking with policy committee, a
078couple things. One, a lot of the. Well, all of these revolve around House Bill 805. We wanted to have discussion with the board, but then also just to make sure that we are informing our public of changes that we possibly could be making. I'll say, you know, as part of crafting a board report, we're asked to connect what we're actually proposing to our strategic plan. Core values. I will say this one is really difficult because it doesn't necessarily align to our core values, but it does, you know, really boil down to it's, you know, what we're being asked to do by our state legislation. So as part is a part of House Bill 805, school districts required to write and adopt policy that implements these four different policies. I just want to make note too,
079because this was something that came up in policies. This is without funding. So I'm going to actually read through these just so our public's aware of the changes that are being proposed. And then I'll open up to the board to have conversation. So there's three specific areas that are mentioned in House Bill 805 for public school revision. The first one, which was brought up in our public comment today too, is our parent access to library books. And for us, that's addressed in Policy 3210, Inspection and Objection to instructional materials. This policy change for us will give parents access to the school and classroom library catalogs and the ability to identify any books that their children cannot check out. In theory, that sounds like something that you could just do, but as we've stated, those classroom
080libraries are not cataloged. There is a lot of work that goes into that because we are blessed that we have classrooms that have, you know, a wide variety of books for our children. The term library book means any electronic print or non print resources excluding textbooks for independent use by students and school personnel outside of the standard course of study for any grade or course. So schools have been given instructions on how to catalog classroom libraries in Google sheets and then those are linked to the school library library's destiny system online. Again, I cannot sit here and say that this is something that can just be done. It's a burden on staff. At some point in our district, whether that's central office that comes in and you know, volunteers, whether that's, you know, central office
081staff, like I said, librarians, school based staff assisting or teachers, whoever is involved in that, it's taking away from the focus of us as focusing on students. And I would just say too, if you are a parent that is watching and you want to help, you know, please reach out to your schools and be on the lookout for messages from your principals. So that's the first one and then I'll kind of jump into the other ones here real quick too. Second one is restrictions on sleeping quarters. This is addressed in Policy 3320, School Trips and Policy 1310, 4002 parental involvement. For this one, our changes include drafting a specifically on sleeping arrangements for overnight trips in situations where students of different biological sexes request to stay in the same room. Currently, our district practice is
082that we have just obtained verbal permission from parents. The biggest change on this one is that we now have to go in and get written permission from each of the parents of the students that would be in that room. Our third one, excuse students for the religious exemptions. This is in policy 3510, religious based exemptions from school programs. These changes include that students along with parents can now request a religious objection and that to the extent practical advance notice should be given if we feel that something will come up that could be provocative for an individual student and that the school shall provide the student with an alternative activity aligned with the standard course of study if the request is granted by the superintendent or designee. Also within the policy, one of the changes that
083the objectors can offer a suggestion for the alternative assignment. So as we've said in other policies, you know, we're bringing this forward for a first reading and I will open it up to questions. We also have Al MacArthur who has graciously decided to stay with us to answer any questions about our digital learning and libraries. I will hand it over to you. Thank you, Dr. Bales. Before we get into the discussion, if I could. I wanted to share the title of this law because I think it's telling and helps set the points you've made. This is Session Law 202584 that we're talking about. And when I read it, it was like, oh, my goodness. An act to officially recognize two sexes in North Carolina to prevent the sexual exploitation of women and minors. To limit
084the use of state fund funding, to modify the law related to birth certificates. To modify the law related to civil remedies for gender transition procedures on non minors, to allow students with religious objections to be excused from certain classroom discussions or activities and to allow parent access to library books and to provide for restrictions on school sleeping quarters. That's the official title of this law. And I want to also then underneath it in the law it says, whereas President Donald J. Trump issued Executive Order 14168 on January 20th. And then it goes down to define that because the President issued this executive order, that the North Carolina General assembly must ensure compliance and federal policy directives to maintain eligibility for federal funding. And I say this because then I looked up what's the legal status
085of this executive order, and it's tied up in all kinds of courts as being unconstitutional and illegal. And so I immediately said, okay, what's our rush here? And then I just wanted to stop and open it to my colleagues. But I just wanted to add that to your excellent introduction, Dr. Bales, that this is more than about parents and library books. Absolutely. So with that said, board members, thank you for tolerating me. Barb? Yeah. What is our rush? I guess, I mean, I think in policy, when we discuss this, I think some of these have dates by which it's all supposed to be done, but some of them. Could you just clarify which. Yes. So there's. There's really three different policy changes that have been directed here. And in each one, the General assembly said,
086you know, local boards shall adopt policies along these lines. It didn't have a date necessarily by which the policy should be adopted. What it said was for the portion about religious exemptions that that takes effect immediately, that the library book requirement applies beginning with the 2526 school year, and that the sleeping quarters part applies with the 2526 school year. And part of that is reflective of the legislative process where when this was originally passed, it was what, March. Right. And so long before that school year started, it was vetoed. It went through a veto override. And so by the time it actually became law, it was August, and the school year was upon us, and they did not change those effective dates. Right. So all I can tell you is that the losses. School boards
087shall adopt policies that do xyz and that this law is effective. Now. If I could just take a moment of personal privilege, I guess I just wanted to talk a little bit. I think these laws are bigotry, and I think the policies really do nothing more than give legitimacy to laws that I find to be bigotry. And it really makes me think back about, as I think most people here know, that I grew up here in Chapel Hill and went to our schools myself. And when I was in ninth grade at Chapel Hill High School, there was one teacher who I actually did not even have, who taught English, who had a unit every year on diversity. And each there was a small group of students. The students were divided up into small groups, and
088they were assigned reading based on different categories of diversity. And hardly any of them wrinkled anybody or ruffled feathers, except for there was one group that was assigned LGBT back then, I think it was just called Lesbian and Gay. And there were a vocal group of parents who were very offended by this, even in progressive Chapel Hill. And they petitioned the principal to allow parents to opt their child out of that particular group if they did not want to be assigned to it. And it created a bit of an uproar among students. And I was proud of how some of my fellow students really fought back against what these parents said. But in the end, the parents were allowed to opt their children out. And I knew that that was wrong then, and it's still
089wrong now. And I can't believe that we're still having these same debates 34 years later. It just makes me sad and angry, and I think there's a moral issue here and these policies are on the wrong side of it. Then, on a more practical note, I think it's nothing more than an unfunded mandate with forcing our librarians, who should be providing support to our students, and opening up the world of literacy to them, it's making them do busy work that they shouldn't have to be spending their valuable time on. So it just. The whole thing makes me just sad. Well said. I just wanted to say that in addition to Ms. Cole's comments, we got an email from another media specialist. Now I can't find it. Oh, yeah. Opposition to proposed. And it was very
090eloquent. I'm not going to read the whole thing, but it made a lot of the same points that you made. But there was one statement in there that I Just wanted to explore to see if there's a way around or a way to comply in. In Chapel Hill way. Yeah. So the sentence is our district's existing policies already ensure transparency and accountability in the selection and reconsideration of instructional and library mater. Library catalogs are already publicly available and parents have always had the right to guide their own children's reading choices. By which I think this, like anybody can go into a library anytime and look and see what's there and what are my kids reading. Right. So this is just. All they're saying is you have to make a database. That's the. You already have
091a data. You already have all your school library books in a database that is publicly available. So the only difference is that they have defined library book to. To include books held in classrooms. The books in your libraries were already in a public database before this law was passed. Can I just ask a clarifying question on the law? So it's physically held regardless of ownership? So no, and I apologize. Let me pull that up. Because it here it is. Library books means electronic print textbooks, etc. That. Yeah. Library books available at each school within the unit. And so for instance, we have talked about book fairs. Those are not books that are owned or, you know, made available by Chapel Hill cover schools. If a child buys it, it belongs to that child. We would
092say this does not apply to book fairs. So how does that apply to classroom teacher books? Because many of those teachers buy those on their own. Go ahead. Sorry. Because it's made for independent use. Made available for independent use by students. And it says library books may be held in a formal school library or in a classroom. So we're going to start governing the books that kids bring to schools and they may share with their friends too. I would say. No. Yeah. I mean what the policy committee discussed in here is adding language that said as financially feasible. Because to the points made earlier, there is no funding that supports a teacher not teaching and cataloging their books. So if there's specific language, maybe we start with the policies in order. Maybe that helps us
093to make some progress. And since we can't use vulgar and obscene language to describe this thing. Please. Well, so I really want to. And you all will know the question. May be, are we already. Have we already addressed this with our policies? And can we just leave things alone? Just specifically the library book part? Yeah, well, yeah. Everything we've discussed. But yes, looking at policy. 3210. Yeah, 3210 specifically. And the one we're On. And it's like, you know, we've looked at it and said, yeah, we. We're doing that. Our policy. Our policy takes care of that. Are you asking me if that complies with the statute? It does not. No, no, I wasn't asking. Or were you not asking? No, I was asking my colleagues, because that's kind of where we're at. I'm sorry. I
094really was. You know, policy is not defined. It says, local boards of education shall adopt policies that do all of the following. And then specific to this, it says that the policy provides ongoing public access to the title of any library book and allows parents to. So, I mean, one discussion we sometimes have is, if you have. Like, does it matter if something is in your policy manual, as opposed to. I mean, you adopt a strategic plan as a statement of your policy. It's not in your policy manual. Well, I mean, if we just look at this and say, well, we're already taking care of this. You say, like, our books are cataloged. For example. If we looked at the law and said, we're doing that, so there's nothing to see here, folks, and let's
095move on. Okay. I mean, I think they're. Sorry, were you gonna say something? What's that? I can tell this a question. I'm sorry. I would say, similar to previous legislation around whether or not we can teach about diversity, equity, and inclusion, at the end of the year, there's an attestation that the district has to sign off on whether we have a policy or not around that issue. I would imagine that we would find something similar coming our way. With respect to, did the board actually pass a policy related to these things? I mean, I haven't heard that officially, but I would imagine that's one way that they would track compliance across the state is end of the year attestation statements of whether we have the policy in place. Good point. Yeah. And I would also,
096you know, acknowledge that this would also have a chilling effect, I believe, on classroom libraries, because this is ongoing tracking of classroom sets. It's not like you do it once and it's over. You know, our teachers do a great job of curating resources in classrooms. And, you know, if you now have to put in a database and make sure it's online, every resource that you bring into the classroom, I think, to Meredith's point, you know, it can have a chilling effect on. Do I do that? Do I spend time, you know, looking for resources that may pique the interest of an individual kid who you're trying to reach. You know, those are the types of things that I don't think the policy really or the discussions that we've heard don't really kind of speak to.
097Because sometimes that's the case. It's not necessarily, you know, I want to get this book just because. It's because I'm trying to make a connection with Rodney and I know he's interested in xyz. So I'm going to put this in my classroom library to try to make that connection. So you. I don't like it either. But those are the stories that you probably will not hear when discussing policies such as this. So where does that leave us? Practically speaking? This is the 2025, 2026 school year, so that goes till June. Policy. I mean, 1310. Looks like you just updated numbers, right? Maybe. Hold on, let me keep scrolling. I might be wrong. Oh no, there's that one sentence. So I'll say the other three policies are not. They're all part of House Bill 805, but
098they are exclusive from each other. If we're looking at the library. I mean, the library is one specific policy. 3210. Everything outside of that, I would say largely is minor shifts, but still things that impact. Yeah. If you would like to address the other two topics. The religious based exemptions I will note comes from our legislature, but is also aligned with recent Supreme Court case law giving parents the rights to raise religious exemptions or objections to their students participating in certain topics. And as Dr. Bale said, the school trips from our understanding of principles. The main shift would be from getting verbal permission to getting written. But they do. They would typically seek permission in the. In that sort of situation. So would it be then appropriate or useful for us to take a resolution
099to adopt the two policy changes that you just referenced and that we'll continue to study the other one. I didn't think the policy committee could. Redo that one again and review whether we feel like our current policy already covers it or not. Yes. Or what tweets we might need to. Make to our country. It further. It might take a while. I think studying it further could help. I don't. I am worried. I mean, because I'm thinking about. I mean, not only about Catherine, but about our classroom teachers, myself included, that I'm actually tasked with doing this as well. If I get the sense that it's not happening for a while. I still don't know if I'm gonna have to do it eventually, that I'm still going to do what Rodney Said is I'm not going
100to buy as many new books for my class and if I'm choosing books I might choose some that aren't as questionable and I hate that. But it's a fact that it might happen. And I think hearing from us that we're dragging our feet isn't going to solve that problem for me. Good point. I would say many of our teachers have already started that process within their classrooms. Parents have came in and supported. And the other note of clear too. Is. I couldn't make a restriction on a book for another student like that would. As a parent I could do that for my own child. I just. George, I just wanted to say also about 3510 the religious based exemption one that one there's language in there that says to the extent practicable, advance notice to
101students, parents and guardians should be made. I just feel like that language is just less burdensome on schools and teachers. So I, I mean I don't like it but I have. It seems less terrible than the library one and I. Mike, that's a good point. We should let people know what they need to do. Yeah. And I do want to note with the religious space exemption that you have an existing policy for people to challenge curricular materials if they think it shouldn't be taught. But this is not that. This is only an opt out for their child and not, you know, there's a different. If they think that it's generally right. So Mike, What? Would you like to see. This policy go away? Yeah, I mean I hate the entire thing. It's detestable. So I
102mean I'm trying to balance that. We could study it some more or we could do something more studying. I don't see how we're gonna avoid. I mean short of just us choosing to disobey the law, I don't see how we avoid doing this. And as a classroom teacher I'd rather know sooner than later that it had to get done. But I hate it. That's my answer. Anybody else? Okay, so. Is there a place in the policy where we could add in order to comply with state law, we will do X. Would that. Well again it's going to help if we're agreeing to do it. You know, I'm having flashbacks to two years ago when the bottom line was in some of our opinions and ultimately everybody agreed that was just discrimination, plain and simple. And
103we could not support a policy that discriminated. And so I find myself coming back to sort of principles here. Ples. Principles of like We're. Who's going to say, like, what are we afraid of to say no? And I mean, I know the literal answer. And yes, we reported. We were reported as not complying. One other time. The data was 98.5% of LEAs complied. They didn't identify us by name. Oh, it's like, why are we party? I get back into this sort of moral thing and nobody needs me preaching, but it's like, why are we being a party to something that just is ridiculous? It's just not right. Can I ask a question? If we chose not to tell our staff to do this and a parent goes to look at a certain teacher's database and
104it's empty, and they file a complaint. Yeah. Have we set up that teacher to be in trouble? I think yes. That's my gut. So what the law says is that the board shall adopt a policy. I think that a complicated complaint. If someone were seeking to enforce this law through legal means, it would be properly directed at the board. The teacher could say, the board never told me to, and that would hopefully be the end of it for the teacher. And then it would come to us. I just don't want to. I don't want to put this on the teachers. I mean, do you feel like. To say it would be the end of. It is hard to say say, but what I would say is that the proper party, the party that's being directed
105to do something here is the board. Okay. I will say we've checked in with schools just about where they are with their progress, and more than half are there. So I don't know. They'Re almost there. I mean, I feel like this is not the one that I would follow my sword over. There are probably other ones that. I. Think to your point also, George, it's harder to point at this one and say that's discriminatory. Like, it's got this ugly base behind it. But it's harder to just say that violates someone's rights. You know. It'S just an undue burden on teachers. I agree. It's just the whole, you know, General assembly's got time for this stuff, but they don't have time to give teachers a salary increase. It's just maddening that we just continue to be
106a part of this. It's a burden on children, though, too, who want to read, and I hope their friends check out books and give them to them, because that's not prohibited. That's what I was asking. So is the prudent thing to do to adopt the recommended changes on all of these policies on first reading. Is this the first reading? I'd like to go through them policy by policy, because I think there are some that we might want to have more discussion on. Okay. All right, so we're kind of on 3210 right now. Do we want to start with that one? The one thing that we didn't talk about is we did add in the as financially feasible to the extent of required by state law. I think that makes sense. I feel like it just
107feels like flashbacks. And I wasn't on the board with the class size. Like it was just like and classes shall be this size. But it's like, wait, you didn't give us the mechanism to afford to do that. And also make sure we had school buildings to go with it to make the classes that size too. So I think if we put it in there, it makes sense. And so we won't be beholden to maybe some fancy tool or software. Yeah. I mean, the work right now is that a teacher will put their classroom library like book by book in a Google sheet and then that's shared a link to the Destiny Library. As I'm looking at the draft here, and I hadn't looked at it since the policy committee, I think that to the extent
108required by state law belongs in the second paragraph there instead of the first. So maybe start the second paragraph with two to the extent required by state law, schools shall do the following. And if you're going to include the financially feasible language, maybe to the extent required by state law and funding. What about something like to the extent required by state law and if it does not contravene federal law, just thinking about pending litigation and things might change and I don't know. I'm trying to signal we don't like this. We're just doing this because we have to. I feel like that's important. But I also think the letter writer who said if this changes and you guys have this policy on the books, kind of a bummer. So I just. What was that change again?
109I know you because it's not like. Federal laws, but just to the extent required by state law and insofar as it doesn't require contravene federal law or something like that. Really? For all of them? Because how about. And not inconsistent with federal law. Yeah, that's better. Yeah. So we're on 3210. Is there more to 3210? Ava, where were you saying add as financially feasible? I think you said Move it to the second paragraph as a suggestion within the local administrative unit. I guess it would be after that sentence, maybe provide an ongoing public access through a searchable web based catalog. Perhaps. So first of all, I must note the bill does not provide any wiggle room if you don't have funds to do this. So this would be a deviation. But perhaps after number one,
110within the limits of. Or. What if it was parenthetical after the word catalog? Sorry, what if it was in parentheses after the word catalog through a web based catalog? And then as much as we can do. Right. I mean, I will say one of the things that we are relying on here is that you and I think all the school districts in North Carolina have searchable web based catalog because there is a software that is free and if it stops, it's not free. Okay. Anyway, if that particular program became unavailable or not feasible, I think. Yeah. Then that makes sense to me. Provide ongoing public access. Do a searchable within the limits of available funding. Okay. So where's that leave us here? Have we got a language enough to send it back? Just. We can
111amend it. It's going to be first. We can amend it here and approve it on first reading. Approve it on first read. With the changes discussed tonight. Yeah. Could we have a motion to that effect? Okay, that's fair. Ronnie, which where we were was people were waiting for you to ask for a motion to accept with our changes on first reading. Is there a motion and there has not been a motion yet. And the chair requested it, but then someone suggested just wait till Ronnie gets back. Oh, okay. So that's where we are on 32.3210. So move. Is there a second? So there's no second to the motion. So the motion dies then. So we haven't made a decision. So do we put it on the agenda for another meeting? I think I'll second that
112motion. Now the motion has been seconded. Any further discussion hearing? None. All in favor say aye. Aye. Are there three ayes? Yes. There's also six of us. Right. So if a tie, then it doesn't pass. I will support it. Aye. It's now four in favor. That's a majority. So the motion passes. Do you need to say the second part? 0 Do what? Do you need to say the second part? All opposed? The second part? All opposed. Any names? Oh, well, do I? Yes. Yeah. All opposed. There's Meredith and myself. Okay. Now we're going to back up to the other policies here. I guess Dr. Bales would just back. Up to 1310-1310-3320-1310 is our school trips, which was a shift from verbal consent to written consent. And I would add it is not uncommon to receive
113written consent either. And that's been, you know, at least verbal. But anytime schools reached out to our office, particularly for overnight field trips, we always encourage at least verbal, but it's often written consent and that's what schools do. So it doesn't represent a huge shift for us as a district. Okay. So the idea was to proceed individually with these policies. So if we look directly at 1310, we added into parental permission required. Scroll all the way down here. D14. D14. Thank you. Student sharing sleeping quarters with a member of the other biological sex during any activity or event authorized by school, unless the member of the other biological sex is the student's immediate family member. This is under the parental involvement policy. So could we just have a motion. Of a 13:10 just ask a
114question about it? I'm just curious. So obviously this is targeted targeting trans kids. And I'm just. But you said you already often get verbal or get verbal and often written consent. So the kids, the affected kids, parents also, everybody knows. And it hasn't been a deterrent for kids going on trips. I mean, it's been from day one, since I've been back in the district that we've done. And it's not unusual. Typically you have a parent that is very aware and very supportive for friends and other parents. I've never had an issue at all with any field trip in this space. I would say that's something that's proactively done for the most part anyway. The parents are going to reach out to the school. It's not even a fact that the school is reaching out to
115the parents. I think the other part is that the school community typically knows. So it's not like it's a surprise. I mean, these kids have grown up together over the years and, you know, I think it's a really good space. I mean, the legislation is problematic, but, you know, it's not a problem that we were looking to solve in our community. Okay. So the administration. Oh, I'm sorry. I just wanted to add that I do think it's a very thinly veiled anti trans and I'm uncomfortable with that. I mean, I'm really happy to hear that it has, you know, the. It's not going to fundamentally change anything, but I just want to recognize that it, you know, that's what it is at its. At its heart. So anybody else I agree with you Meredith. I
116mean, again, in terms of our district, it's okay, but I mean, if you read the law and what they're achieving with amendments to birth certificates and things like that, it's. Is extremely insensitive and just cruel, so. And they've just kind of tucked it away in the back of this law. Anybody else? So the administration's asked us to approve the policy. Can I have a motion? I'll reluctantly move. Second. It's been moved and seconded. All in favor say aye. Opposed? It passes unanimously. Thank you. All right. The one that goes along right with that One is Policy 3320, which is School trips, which has. It's the same exact language. For the most part, it's just adding in a restriction on sleeping quarters that you have to have written permission. Thank you. Can we have chair request
117a motion to approve 3320 school troops? So moved. Second. It's been moved and seconded. All in favor say aye. Aye. Opposed? Passes unanimously. Do we have 3510? Is that still the next one we need to do? 3510 is our last one. Religious exemptions. If you want to talk more about that one or if there's any questions. Any board members have any questions on that before we ask for a motion, the chair would request a motion to approve. 35, 10. Done. Second. It's been moved and seconded. All in favor say aye. Aye. Opposed? Passes unanimously. Dr. Bales. Did we get them all? Got them all. Thank you. Thank you, sir. This brings us to the Superintendent's report and. Mr. Chair, can we take a mental break for a minute? I'm sorry? Can we take a mental
118break for a minute? Yes. I was just going to say we're going to take a break. Thank you. Before that, I didn't know if you were getting up to talk or you were getting up to leave. Thanks. That's right. Appreciate everybody's patience. So we're looking forward to your presentation on student enrollment and some related issues tonight. Yes. Welcome. Thank you. Thank you. Board chair, members of the board, cabinet, and certainly the Chapel Hill Carrboro community, I bring to you tonight preliminary enrollment projections for this school year, 2025, 2026, and also analysis, budgetary analysis for 2627, which is next school year. But before I dive into the heart of my conversation, just a few words. The data that I'll share in just a moment represent more than just numbers. It really tells a story about a
119changing district, the Chapel Hill Carrboro City Schools. And so with that in mind. Just kind of keep that as top of mind. Student enrollment shifts and demographic shifts in our district and our community are real. And it is not a new phenomena. It's a phenomena we've been experiencing for the better part of of a decade, to be honest. And so I also want to frame for not only the board and our cabinet, but also our community. This presentation is not about doom and gloom, but there is incredible opportunity before us. We talk a lot about innovation and doing things differently as our strategic plan mentioned. And if we can kind of address some of the challenges before us in a thoughtful manner together. Like I said, there's an incredible opportunity before us as a community
120to do what we've been known to do, is provide a high standards and a level of education for our students in our community. In my swearing in ceremony speech, I iterated the fact that the next 25 years will not look like the previous 25 years. And this was not a prediction. This was an acknowledgement of our current reality. And as part of our current reality, the world is really changing around us. The politics around education is changing. As our discussion just highlighted, it is not uncommon for public education to be questioned as a public good. It is not uncommon for education to be questioned as a pillar for a healthy democracy. And I'm not sharing this to be hyperbolic, but this really sets the context for some of the local challenges that we face around
121enrollment. And so I want to take a moment to share a short video with the board. I think you may have seen it before in our community. It's a three minute video where representatives from the Chamber and Carolina Demography shared a bit about our reality as a school district and a community. Many of the slides that you'll see in this 3 minute video I'll unpack in just a bit, but this provides a pretty nice summary of kind of. Where we are, you know, data detective work. The effect of the pandemic is clear. Between 2019 and 2021, school year, net annual change in ADM and Chapel Hill Carver City Schools, you lost 540 kids in just that one year. The following year you lost 353 kids. Between school years 2020, 2021 and 2122. The loss started
122to abate in 23, but you still lost 21 kids and then picked back up. Last year, kindergarten saw 28% decline in ADM, which is by far the biggest out of all the grades. So what's happening? This is the question at hand. You see, starting in 2014 or 2015, rather, you start to see a steady decline. This, this is what we would largely expect in Chapel Hill. First of all, fertility is on the decline everywhere. This is not unique to here. It's not unique to North Carolina, United States. It's a global phenomenon. Fertility is on the decline. So what that suggests is that not only do you have declining birth, but you also have fewer families moving in with preschool age children who are going to enroll in kindergarten. The number of school age children 5
123to 17 has been decreasing in Chapel Hill and Carboro during our same time period. So in, in 2020, we're at 13,120, but during this time period, it dropped about 700 kids to 12,421 school age children. There's a big part of your answer right there. That's a huge part of your answer of why, where, where your thousand kids went. That's not all of it, but that's some of it. Your previous slide was the most unmasking for me. It isn't this question of they're here, but they're choosing something else. There's some of it was that they're actually not here anymore, irrespective of what they're choosing. And to be clear, it's a yes and right. So it's, it's a, it's an out migration and it's a diversification of market shares. You saw a 61% increase in homeschool enrollment
124in Orange county between 18 and 21. It's reasonable to assume that some of that 1,000 students that you lost between 2019, 2020 went to home schools. Right. And we know that some went to charters as well. So. Yes. So this is private school enrollment. 24% increase between 21 and 24. But again, it's likely the number of students that you're losing to private schools over this period is likely much higher. Right. And so that's basically your story. If I had to put this in very broad strokes, I would say is probably about half of those thousand students moved out of the district and not. They weren't replaced. And then piecing together the number of students that you lost to home schools, the number of students that you lost to charter schools, and the number of students
125that you lost to private schools. Those are, those are your stories right there. Out migration, not enough in migration and increasing diversification. So, oops, we're going the wrong way. Uh, oh, sorry. Okay, so there are a lot of nuggets to pull from that video. And I think for me, the most compl. Compelling. This is not A new phenomenon for our school district. But what I would say is that this also presents an opportunity. I'm going to go through a number of charts, and I don't mean to put you to sleep, but I do want to tell a story about where we are. Again, if we're looking at this chart that looks at, sorry, average daily membership for the past 10 years, as Mr. Dollar suggested, in about 2020, there was a precipitous decline in enrollment.
126And if you look at the chart today, in 2026, for the 2026 school year, you see we're at about 10,800 students, which represents about 290 students fewer than what we had last year. Why is this important? The way schools are funded. Current year's funding is based on prior year's enrollment. The prior year's enrollment. So sitting here today, this school year, we are funded at the level of 11,100 students because we know that our current enrollment is 10,800 students, or just above that, we have a pretty good sense of where, what our funding, state funding, will be next school year. That's why this is very important to the administration and needs our full attention in terms of how we address it. But let's look at the math behind that. So if last school year we're funded
127at 11,100 students, and we know next school year we're looking at a decline of about 290 students, the state funds us at about $7,500 a kid. And if we are experiencing a decrease in enrollment this year, you do the math, and it's about $2.1 million that we can anticipate, fewer dollars that we can anticipate next school year. Now, as a district, we've been through a number of years where we've had to make some tough decisions about making sure our budget is appropriate for our district. If we do not address this challenge before us, the decline in student enrollment, this $2.1 million, has the potential to erode a lot of the gains that we've experienced over the past couple years. And what do I mean by that? Breaking even or even increasing a bit. And our
128fund balance this past school year, this school year, on track to really begin to build our fund balance in a really serious way. But if we do not address what we know is before us based on, I think these were 30th day numbers, it has the potential to erode many of the gains that we've made. And so I think that's critical for not only the board and the Administration, but our public to acknowledge. So it's fair to ask, you know, where did the students go? And I think Mr. Dollar, who was provided the presentation from Carolina Demography, helped us with that. But I think it's important to kind of look at the data. So this chart represents the change in private school enrollment between the years of 2019 and 24. If you look at Orange
129county, which also includes the Orange county schools, there was a 15% increase represented by 162 students. Likewise, if we look at the change in homeschool enrollment during that same period, there was a slight increase, a 2% increase in Orange county, but represent, you know, 20 students. But if you take a look at this graph, and I know this may be tough to look at on the screen, but what you see here is for the year 2324, a breakdown of where students went. And I think this does a good job of telling our overall story. So if you look at the top two lines, public school schools and move out of the state or country, and you look over to the far right, you see about 70% of the students who exit Chapel Hill Carrboro either
130chose to go to another school, another public school in North Carolina, or they moved out of the state or the country. That represents about 70%, 26%, as you can kind of see there, either chose a private school, a charter school, or a home school. The idea is that if we brought every one of these students back to Chapel Hill Carrboro, it would not address our challenges related to declining student enrollment. And I think that's a message that Mr. Dollar gave us. So it's part of the answer to why we're experiencing declining enrollment, but it is not the complete answer. So it's fair to ask, are the students even here anymore? Mr. Dollar talked about birth rates. I think this is one of the graphs that he shared in the three minute video. But if you
131take a look, 10 years ago, we had about 850 kindergarteners in our district. At the 30th day this year, we're looking at 6, 626 kindergartners, which is a pretty steep decline. Many of our parents, school administrators, teachers, are now kind of experiencing this decline where we've had to combine kindergarten classrooms or move teachers to other schools so that we can be the most efficient with our staff. But without question, we're expanding, experiencing a decline in kindergarten enrollment, which helps us answer the question, are the students even here? And this is one example of what birth rates does, not only to a community, but to our schools. This is an interesting chart as well, because it takes a cohort view of enrollment over the past 10 years in our district. You can see cohort enrollment if
132you track the colors across the screen there. And you can see that we have pretty robust cohort survival across the years. But what becomes interesting is if you look at each individual grade level and you just go across to the right, you can see that the grade levels are dropping year after year after year. And what you'll notice, kindergarten through eighth grade, you'll tend to see that drop. But in high school, it's pretty stable and perhaps even increasing. And so that's a phenomena that we're also looking at in terms of where the declining enrollment is happening. It's primarily currently happening at the elementary level and middle school level. This next graph is instructive as well. We're looking at a comparison of spring graduation to fall kindergarten enrollment. And you'll see in 26. I mean, I'm
133sorry, in 2016, the number of students we were graduating and the number of kindergarteners enrolling were about the same. Fast forward to 2025. The number of students that we are graduating is outpacing the number of kindergarteners that we are bringing in. And you can kind of see the gap kind of get bigger over the years. This is similar to what you would see in society when our country talks about deaths versus births, and they use that data to look at demographic trends. This is what we're saying, the ideas that we want it to either be the same or we want more kindergarteners than students we graduate, which would put us on a growth trajectory. Again, another interesting slide that just kind of tells our story about our current reality over the last 10 years. Again,
134in Chapel Hill Carrboro, birth rates are on the decline. You see in 2010, 721 births. Fast forward to 21 and 572 births. But again, birth rates in our community are on the decline. So if you take a look at this chart where we're looking at Chapel Hill Carrboro City Schools, enrollment change between the years of 2020 and 2025. This depicts enrollment in a way that, you know, we've just looked at, but in a slightly different way. If you look at the enrollment between kindergarten and, let's say, eighth grade, you can see that enrollment trend. The enrollment trend is declining. But if. You look at high school, it's either stable or kind of increasing. But this is important because one day those elementary and middle school students will become what, high school students. And so it's
135incumbent upon us to kind of look at these trends and knowing perhaps in the next year or so we may begin to experience some of this trend in our high schools. Right. And it has serious implications for programming services that we provide, perhaps staffing. But that's why it's important to kind of look at the data now and begin to kind of plan in a serious way. I'm going to close it out by just taking a short look at local demographics. The board may be aware of these charts that I think we looked at at the the board of county commissioners meeting some time ago. But if you look at the 2010 population count for Orange county and you can see the other population counts for our surrounding counties, just over 130,000. Ten years later, when
136we did a population count, we grew to 148,000, which represented 11% increase. So our community is growing. Perhaps not to the rate that some of the other communities are growing, but we are growing. But here's the sticker. So when you look at the growth of our community, 73% of that growth can be attributed to the inflow of community members who are 65 years and older, which are not school aged children. You know, we want to see our community grow. We, you know, love when that happens. But it does not help us answer the question about how do we think about our schools from a growth perspective when we know that the vast majority of those coming to our community are not of school age. And as Mr. Dollar said, there are just not as many
1375 to 17 year olds in our community anymore. This next chart kind of depicts that. So if we take a Look at the two yellow lines, the first yellow line, population under 5 years old between the years of 2010 and 2020 had a decrease of 11.5%. The second yellow line, you can see the population 65 years and over between those years represented 68.8% of our growth. But again, that's our story. But we have to kind of return to this idea of this is our reality. We know that the way that schools are funded is based on enrollment. There's really no way outside of that. But just to kind of reiterate, for our community, current year's funding is based on prior year's enrollment. I mean, that's the take home message. And because we know that this
138year's enrollment is 10,800 students, that gives us a pretty good sense today what our funding will be next year. The administration wants to take a different approach in terms of sharing this information. We don't feel like we can wait till, you know, February or March to kind of share this information, particularly with the board. We're tracking our 40th day number, which I think is coming up next. Is it next week? Sometime the 24th. So that's where we'll kind of get that final number. And I think it's whatever the highest number is between two principal month, report one or two. So we'll be able to make some final predictions around enrollment on that time, But I think we're pretty much there. Enrollment will be matching average daily membership. But again, not to kind of be doom
139and gloom, because we're going to talk a little bit beyond this. The math is simple. We are. We have 290 students fewer than what we had last year, which translates into about $2.1 million. We want to do all we can and give all our focus to addressing this issue so that we don't erode from the gains that we've made the past couple of years. And that deserves our full attention as an administration. And so this idea of looking ahead and moving together is an important point for me. This does not have to be doom and gloom. What I've shared in a number of spaces, including with our principals earlier this week, is that if we don't address what we see, there are incredible inefficiencies in our district with respect to how we operate our schools.
140Some schools are operating at capacity, others are operating at 60% capacity. If we don't address that inefficiency, then we are institutionalizing inequities. It doesn't allow us to pivot in terms of innovation. And we've all talked about innovation and the need for innovation. So this stifles that. But I think there's a way that we can look at our data, bring our community together to understand the data, and move beyond what could become a rumor mill. Because in times of scarcity, you know, sometimes that happens, the pointing fingers, the blaming, the shaming. But if we are just transparent with what our data is, allow people to kind of understand that data and hear what they want the future of our district to become and have an opportunity to kind of weigh in on that, I think that
141would be helpful. And so that's kind of what I'm proposing as the superintendent. I'm not asking for a vote tonight, but when I think about next steps and where we need to go and how we socialize, this data is going to be very important in how our community understands the state and has the opportunity to ask questions, you know, I think it's important to think about a pivot, but a pivot that is more aspirational than doom and gloom. And not just use terms like innovative and you know, have it be nebulous. But I think this is an opportunity to address inefficiencies that may allow us to look at perhaps teacher pay and benefits differently. You know, if we have desires to expand pre K opportunities, this might be an opportunity to do some of that.
142So that's kind of the. Those are the things that I'm kind of thinking of when I say let's be more aspirational. Let's pivot toward something that draws us to a goal that we want to become. I don't think I could define that in the superintendent's office or in our cabinet meetings. I think this has to be a whole of community approach when it comes to thinking deeply about our future. And that is kind of what excites me and what I mean by there's an opportunity here. It doesn't have to be doom and gloom if we make that decision as a community. That's all I have. I'm just, like I said, sharing information. This is the superintendent's report. I'd be happy to hear any comments or thoughts from the board, but this is kind of what
143our reality is right now. Thank you. Dr. Trice, before I open it to the board members, can you back up one slide? Just a technical question. The 11,114 was our enrollment last year. Yes, sir. And so these numbers are based on reality. But last year at this number, we still weren't where we wanted to be in of terms. Terms of our expenditures. That's correct. Because when we did the RIF and when we did the three tiered reductions, we made a big dent in it, but we didn't get there. So I want people to understand that number is not a good number in last year. It's not like we were clean and we matched our funding against our budget. We were already knowing we had a deficit of some sort coming next year if we didn't
144trim more. Well, that's not exactly. I want to be real clear about that. Yeah. So I think if you look at kind of where we landed at the end of last year, we, you know, we added a little to our fund balance is kind of what we think. Right. We're making roads, but where we wanted. We're not anywhere near where we. Now you're saying, boy, right. And now this is another layer on top of that that certainly wasn't addressed the last couple of years. And if we don't address it moving forward, it could erode many of the gains we made. Sure. But I appreciate your starting focus on being aspirational. So I'll open the floor to the board for questions or comments. Yeah, Ronnie. I am so grateful for your leadership, Dr. Trison. This topic
145before us tonight is an example of that. I think we are going to have to be more proactive in thinking about how we better understand trends before they're right in front of us. And even this one is a little bit behind us to some extent. But I think having data beginning the conversations to enable those conversations throughout the community is going to be really important. And so I appreciate the approach to start with what we know and then to guide us through. So what, what do we do with that information? Thank you. Yeah, I just co signed that. I mean that was. This is a great, really illuminating presentation. I appreciate all the different depictions of the data. It really helps you see different aspects of it. I just have a question about some information
146that was in the abstract. But I don't think it was covered in the presentation. And it's okay if we don't have the answer now. But about demographics, there was a statement that the multilingual learner population continues to expand and the percentage of students identified as EC has increased and the proportion of students qualifying for free and reduced lunch has also increased. And I guess my question about that is, is that because those are phrased differently. Like it kind of, you could read that to mean the number of multi language learners has actually the number has expanded. But the other two categories are about the percentage. Oh, I see what you're saying. You see what I'm saying? So does that mean anything about who has left or who. I guess just. Could you just. Yeah, so
147I don't think the statement wasn't intended to say anything about who's left, but it does require us to think about our current student population. And if our multi language learners are increasing, but we have incredibly inefficient use of our budget, it limits the amount of service that we can provide. And I'm not just talking about hiring or staffing. I'm talking about service that we could provide to those students. And so that's kind of what that was a statement of, you know, programming service. Maybe it's staffing. You know, I don't, you know, I don't know. But it wasn't a statement about, you know, students leaving the district. Anybody else? Well, I did. Yeah. Go ahead, Mary. Watching the clips from that presentation Was interesting to me. And I think that, you know, clearly a large chunk
148of these kids can be attributed to birth rate, the changes in demographics. And I think part of it, it's not just that a lot of older people are moving here, it's just that people are aging in place longer. So people who used to be 50 are now, you know, older than 50. So, you know, that, that narrative I understand, but there does appear to be a chunk of kids who are leaving for whatever reason, be it the pandemic, and then decided to stay out. And I just think that we have to take a more market share view of what's going on. So what can we do to keep some of those kids within reason, obviously also finding out why kids are leaving. I mean, I've said this before, but I'll say it again. I think
149that we could do a better job as a district finding out why the people are leaving. Because it's, you know, I feel like Dr. Dollar had said something about he expected that this would be leveling off this year, but it's still going down. And so trying to figure out. The. Things that are within our control is what I'm trying to say. There's a lot obviously that's not within our control, but to the extent that there are things that are within our control, I'd like to have some kind of open discussions about what we can do to alleviate some of that, to keep some of the kids here in our public school district. Absolutely. Just a response to that. When you look at the 26% shaded in green, you know, when you think about market share
150and every student counts, you know, part of our work should be, you know, picking up the phone, calling families to say, hey, we want you back. Look what we offer. How is it going? You know, those types of things, you know, we don't typically do now. But to your point, finding out why people are leaving could also help, you know, mitigate some of that, you know, those numbers in that green shaded area. Yep, absolutely. Thank you for sharing this. I know I've gotten a number of questions. As I know George and I, we've been campaigning for reelection. This has come up, you know, and thank you for this cohort look, because it's showing one thing. You know, sometimes kindergarten is hard to look at because it's not required for kids to enroll in kindergarten. So
151then when you even look at first grade, you see that the first grade cohorts are getting smaller and smaller. Just even shortly before the pandemic, you start to kind of see that presenting itself a little bit. So it's really helpful. And I know I've shared some different looks at census data with you and George, and it's census data, and it was like an infographic because there's a lot of people I know who are in a lot of different spaces and places. And it's even showing the trends of households are changing. Because when you look at slide, and I don't have the number, but it was one of the ones that says Chapel Hill Township, the one further down, you start to see that there's like, yeah, there's like thousands of people who live in our
152area who are, you know, adults, meaning 18 and older. But there's like a census graph that I've seen where that doesn't mean they have kids. Right. And that doesn't mean they're going to have kids. And there's census data that's showing that there are more and more people who are single and married with no kids, and that is growing. So I know we want to look into the why, but I think that population of why people are here are going to age out of our school. And if we focus too much time on that and we don't focus on the 289 and that number continuing to go down and how we need to make adjustments to our schools, we're gonna lose time focusing on the reality of the 10,000, whatever kids, and then the year after
153that and the year after that, because the reality is these national data points on people being single and married with no kids, that is not changing. That is actually growing more and more, and it has zero to do with anything we can do. And so I'd rather, for me, I'd rather a spend the time on looking at our district knowing that kids do come back. Like, even in that cohort data chart, you do see students coming back. They naturally come back. But I also know, like, I know a number of people who have left and there's nothing we can do. Like I've given an example, some of these specialized schools that some of the. Kids are going to. We aren't going to build a whole program around that just to bring that one student back.
154And it's a fascinating program and I love it when I see the parents who I know who sent their kids off to these programs where they're traveling the world and doing fun things. But I think we need to focus on the reality that we have true declining enrollment, not just here, but nationwide also. I wonder what part of all this immigration stuff is having on us. Not the in school students, but the bigger immigration. Because the whole immigration discussion impacts also people who come from overseas to come and work and learn here. And so we have a large number of people who bring their kids with them when they come over here to study or to teach. And so again, outside of our control, but that's a reality. Are we going to see less and
155less international people coming to this area or any area in the US and bringing their children? Because, well, I know that my visa is only X number of years. Why would I disrupt my child's learning to bring them? Because we know a number of people in our community who do that. They're coming over here, they're on whatever visa with the university or whatever company they work for, and they bring their students with them. And that has been a bump that we've had and we probably are going to see some of those numbers impacted as well. So I just, I want us to think about that as some of the things that we haven't highlighted here. But I'm wondering if that's going to impact us considering our demographic here that we may see. That's why we
156don't have a certain cohort of kids. But I think it's important until we see changes in that national data, state data, even professionals moving to our space, until we see some increases in that which would give us five or six year Runway. You know, this is our reality. And I think, you know, I think to Ms. Dassi's point, I mean, we have to kind of look, continue to look at these trends because it will point to when that shift or if it happens. But we also have to be fiscally responsible and, you know, will we be at 9,000 students or 9,500 students in three years or four years? And what do we pivot toward? You know, I think again, partnering with Carolina Demography to kind of help us think about that. There's nothing inherently wrong
157about that. It's just we have to plan for that and we have to do it together. Dr. Trice on slide six, which is the same one I was referring to. Okay. Which was the dollars, the state dollars. It's side 6 of 24 on my screen. This one? Yeah, that one. That was state money, right? State money, yes. So, you know, I don't want to be the Grinch and the doom and gloom, but our local money is also funded per pupil and it would probably be about $4,500 with our two funding sources per child, 2003, 400 per kid, and then special district tax. 0 So the only thing we need to consider, though is that Orange County's experience, Orange county schools is also experiencing declining enrollment. And we're based on a percentage. Right, Right. 0 So
158their money, the Orange county appropriation, goes up every year. Right. So far. Has. Except for a few years. 0 Right. And then it's split percentage wise between the two schools. So the effect won't be as large on the county side as the state side. Well, but if we get per pupil expenditure of $2,400 this past year from. Without the special district tax, that's going to be reduced by 289 students unless they reuse it. 0 Well, historically, the county has never dropped public school funding in total across the two districts. So the amount of money going to public schools every year has either remained constant or increased. Okay. While the population has= been decreasing between the two schools, it just changes the ratio between the two. But if both school districts are dropping, that ratio will
159stay relatively constant, if that makes sense. Their pure pupil will essentially go up because our population is dropping. Right. They don't base their funding level on students as much as they base it on a set amount a year. And it goes up, down based on the requests. Thank you. But it will have a. You're= correct. We've seen, you know, half a million dollar changes, 300, $400,000 changes based on changes in the two districts over different years. Thanks. Appreciate that. Anybody else? I second what Ronnie said. I loved your aspirational start. And you're like, the next 25 years have to look different. We can't just keep doing what we're doing. So let's dream big and make it work. And we look forward to how we can support you in that. Thank you. Anybody else? Thank you.
160Dr. Dreiss, is there any sharing committee reports tonight from finance? Yes, our committee met this past Tuesday. And so just some quick updates. The Chapel Hill High track is complete and they were out there playing football tonight, from what I understand, homecoming. So that was wonderful and great news. Also, we did have an introduction to our plumbing team, the Katie and the Jakes. If they start a band like that, I'd like my cut. I figured that out tonight. Also, we talked about, well, the interlocal agreement that the county's going to be discussing that Tuesday, October 21, at their county commissioner meeting. So obviously we have discussed it here in a previous board meeting. Nothing has been passed by the boards or the county, but I know the county is taking a look at it and
161discussing it there. So we did discuss it a little bit Tuesday Night. We did get a brief update on where we are with the request for qualifications RFQ on the architecture, Architectural Engineering services. But note that one's kind of moving through the process but a little on hold too with until we get the ila, the interlocal agreement in place. We did have a brief look at the preliminary budget for this year despite not having a state budget. So we'll review that in our next board meeting. So I believe the intent was= to bring that budget recommendation to the full board at the November 6th meeting for adoption. That's right. Yep. So we did see it. So if you want to kind of take a look at it there. But we'll talk about it with the
162whole full board. Yeah. But again, the state hasn't adopted a budget yet. So that's it. And our next meeting. I'm sorry, I should have been better prepared for this. I'll have to find our next meeting. But it's November, 5:30. Virtual. Sorry. Normally better prepared with that one. Thanks, Reza. Mike, I hesitate to ask your policy, yours is November 11th. Reza, yours is November 11th. Okay. Just looked it up. Thank you. Policy has not met since our last meeting. We are due to meet next week on Tuesday at 5:30. Although I am tempted to bury my head in the sand. Thank you, Mike. Vicki's not here. Is there anybody on Student Success that has anything that they could share? Okay. Anything else for Sharon? Yes. Reza? No, I just want to end us. This may not
163be the final comment, but we talked about a lot of heavy stuff today. And so I want to share that this. This coming Monday is a holiday called Diwali. And I think it's important and special because it is a celebration of the victory of good over evil and darkness over light. And so it is a light over darkness. Thank you. See how it's easy to get influenced when you. But anyway, it's a Hindu festival. I'd encourage you to learn more about, you know, share greetings with your friends. And to all who celebrate Dwali, may you enjoy joy and light. Thank you. Yeah. Quick. I attended the Raschkes and Carrboro SIT meetings. They're working through some of their SIP plans. I know we'll see those soon. So great to see that they were doing that. And
164then I also had a chance. I only attended one day, but the North Carolina Caucus of Black School Board Members that it's held every year, I normally can try to get there. So I went and I was able to attend on Friday. And so Mo Green was there. So it Was great seeing him and we'll see him again here in this community on the 29th. But there was a great presentation by Yvonne Brannan, who she presented from public school schools first in C. All this stuff is on their website, but it gives great information about the impact of this. The vouchers on school districts. How much money, how the vouchers have changed. The intent was to help black students get access to more educational options beyond their public schools. Because of. We won't discuss how
165like, the state hasn't funded Leandro, so it would be just be easy for them to do that. But anyway. And so how you see the demographic shift there of who's receiving the opportunity scholarships, you can even get a breakdown. I mean, it was just really great. So I pulled up the one for Orange County. You can see a breakdown by the schools in our vicinity. Who gets money where they had pulled. Obviously, some of the discussion was on Forsyth. I'm so sorry. That's my whole home county. But we were picking on for Sipe a lot that day because obviously it was in the news. But they did highlight Wake and other places since we were there. But just seeing like how much money goes from our public dollars to private schools is astounding. And they
166had it for like, you can scan it for every single county in this state so you can see where our public dollars are going without any of the same requirements that we have as public schools. But if you haven't had a chance, check out public school first. North Carolina. I thought that was. I mean, we had great present other presentations, but that one resonated with me as we're talking about our declining enrollment and what we need to do to make changes, all while the state legislature is continuing to funnel public dollars to private schools. Thank you, Riza. Anybody else see? None. Hearing nothing. The meeting is adjourned.