Roanoke County School Board Work Session - February 5, 2026

001[music] Down. >> [music] [music] >> There's >> [music] [music] >> Heat. Heat. N. [music] Down. Heat. Heat. N. [music] >> [music] >> Down. Down. >> [music] >> Down. Down. >> [music] [music] >> Down. Hey. Hey. >> [music] [music] >> down. [music] Hey Heat. Heat. Down. Heat. Heat. N. Down. Heat. Heat. N. [music] Down. [music] Down. Heat. Heat. [music] Heat. Heat. Hey, baby. [music] >> [music] [music] >> I'd like to call our work session back to order. Mr. Lynon, will you please read us out of close? >> Yes, Madam Chair. I move that Toronto County School Board come out of close session for the following. for consultation with legal counsel and briefings by staff members pertaining to actual or probable litigation and consultation with legal counsel regarding specific legal matters requiring the provision of legal advice

002by such council pursuant to 2.2-3711A7 2-3711A7 of the code of Virginia and to certify that to the best of each member's knowledge only public business matters lawfully exempted from open meeting requirements under this chapter and only such public business matters as were identified in the motion by which the closed meeting was convened were heard discussed or considered in the meeting by the school board. >> Second >> madame clerk. >> Yes ma'am. Yes, ma'am. >> Yes, ma'am. Item 2.03, action from closed. We do not have any. Item 3.01, approval of personnel changes. Do we have a motion to approve? >> I'll make a motion to approve. >> Second, >> Madame Clerk. >> Yes, ma'am. Item 4.01, major construction project updates. Mr. Todd Cakeles. >> Madam Chair, members of the board, we have with us as usual

003Eric Burke Holder and Kamal Khalil from Scanska, our third party construction uh managers, and they're going to give us updates on our major construction projects. >> Y So, we'll go over the past and current activities and some project photos. So at a CTE, as you can imagine, uh the snow's hampered a little bit of our site work. That's just outside the building. We do have temporary heat inside the building, so it's kept moving forward, but on the site work has hampered down a little bit. Uh since the last update, we have been able to get some stuff done earlier in uh January. So we got some curbs and gutters on the east side uh poured. We poured the concrete pad for the drill pad. Um, we cut the north side down to subgrade and we

004got some light post installed on the east parking lot and we did get the transformer and the the primary wires for it pulled into the building. Uh, area D construction, they dropped GRDs, which if you're not familiar with that is grills, registers, and diffusers that's part of the heating and cooling system. Uh, installed some vinyl composite towel. uh started the epoxy in the restrooms, sealed the concrete in the shop areas, and real important thing is we got the final connections to the switch gears installed, and we finished up the fire pump and the risers in the sprinkler room. Area A, they did start um installing some metal panels on the exterior right there at the entrance. It's looking really nice. Uh they finished pulling all the low voltage wire in that area. We did start

005dropping sprinkler heads, drop lights, and again GRDs in that area. And they finished the level five slope ceiling in the commons area. It turned out to look really nice, too. Um I'll just combined areas B and C because it's pretty much the same stuff going on. Uh they poured the concrete steps and the mezzanines. Uh they continue to do the roof co c co c co c co c co c co c co c co c co c co c co c co c coing and installed a lot of uh gypson wall board which is drywall a lot of heavy MEP which is mechanical electrical and plumbing in those two areas and they've been working on drying in the exterior canopies and completing uh priming and painting in the shop areas. So we'll go into

006some some of the update photos. So that is a light post. Well, we labeled a light post, but it's actually a light ballard. You'll have a light post that sets on top of that, but that anchors you into the ground. And of course, they're continuing to try to get the water line up to the existing building. Uh masonary work, they call that sticky stone. There's a better photo of it later on. And they're in the commons area, they're installing some uh gypson wallboard. Uh like I said, we're undercutting the north side in preparation to build our base and then to put down the paving in that area. If you look to the the right or left of the window frames, that is the sticky stone. It turned out it's really nice looking. Uh there's the

007important drill pad and the concrete steps of course being poured. The VCT is installed in a lot of area B. They did clean up that area. You can see it's a little dirty, but they did clean up that area and put down a protective coating or protective layer on it so it don't get destroyed during construction. And then of course there's some C curbs being poured. Uh a little bit of electrical conduit that's in area B. And of course they're finishing some gypsum wall board in area C. Anybody got any questions? That's the major updates for CTE. >> Looks good. >> Yeah, it's looking great. It's amazing. So much has gotten done so fast. >> Yeah, there it'll it it'll be a very nice looking building. I like the way it sits up on that

008hill and the grand entrance. >> It'll look nice, >> Todd. Would be something we towards the [clears throat] end of the month or first of the month, we could do another walk through anytime. >> It's been a while. >> Yeah. Love to take you up there. the uh when we took I think Mr. Lindon was there uh along with some folks from Curillian. We had to traverse unfinished stairs and things like that, but those are those are finished. There's just since the time we were there, there's paint on the walls, uh BCT, the the floor tiles are down in that area, ceiling grid and all that stuff going in. I mean, it's it's it's exciting because now it looks, you know, it's starting to look like what it's going to look like when it's finished.

009So, uh yeah, happy to take you up there anytime. >> Bring >> Thank you. He's going to be away for a while, I believe. [laughter] >> Uh good afternoon. I'll I'll try to make it uh sweet and short and on the two schools uh cond uh phases uh going on. Phase 3A, which is the bottom part, and they're calling uh the library section phase 2B. And I I don't I don't want to go into that, but I like to call them this way. This much easier to follow. Uh in phase 3A, the bottom part, uh there's a lot of work going on. Uh we finished the sanitary underground piping and we covered it up with the concrete. Um we did the over overhead pipe like copper pipe for the the cool water and the the

010hot water. Plus the HVAC system is is almost done. The overhead sprinkler is also almost done. um inwall and uh overhead flex conduit and junction boxes. Uh for the electrical section that's almost done also. Uh the switch gear we have a lot of work. Uh that might take maybe another four weeks or so. But the switch gear like it's it's a lot of work. So we're not behind but we're we're doing good. Uh concrete blocks they started like two weeks ago. Um, and we're almost done on the bottom, like lower level. We'll probably be moving up ahead uh in the next week or so. Uh, steel framing is almost done uh on the lower part. Um, on the library section that's upstairs, uh, we got overhead copper piping also for the hot water and cold

011water, HVAC system, overhead sprinklers, framing. It's kind of the same uh, work in a way. uh drywall, windows, uh door frames, plus the framing. Um outside, uh we did the set up the we did the pad and we set up the transformer on it. That's all done. Um all the conduit is is is perfectly done. I mean, we just waiting on this the inside switch gear to be done. Uh same thing on uh Glen Cove. Uh we got the lower level the 3A phase 3A sanitary piping that's also covered up. Uh we got overhead copper pipe for out and cold water. HVAC system uh sprinklers done um like 90% maybe 80% done. Uh the same in inwall you know receptacles or flex conduit even the wires pulled uh and even the junction pucks up on

012top and the walls. Uh block wall also started uh we're almost done maybe 80 85% done. uh the sheer footing that was done maybe two weeks ago. But today I just came also from there and they they're doing the foot the the block next to these two columns. Um framing is almost done probably also 85% done on the upper level. The library section uh we have overhead copper piping. It's all almost the same the same uh activities. That's why it kind of like boring but uh it's the same the same activities uh and same tasks. Um on the upper level the library section also I called it the same thing so you can follow it better. Uh framing drywall windows doors all that's in the works. Um probably 80 85% done. And on the transformer

013side here at Glen Cove, they might have an issue because of the pipe in the transformer, it's probably got so much rust in it, they can't reuse it. So, they might have to do it from a different way. We'll see. We'll wait to see what they're going to do. Um, that's the transformer pad and the transformer sitting on it. I don't know if you can see it, but on the left hand side, that's the the the sanitary pipe. Like, we cover it up with sorry, h cover it up with mud, which is concrete. That's the door door frames and the framing on the left hand side and some junction boxes up on top of the ceiling and plus flex conduit and some sprinkler work and that's the switching. You can imagine that how much work

014is that on the left hand on the right hand side that's still uh going on and that's also covering up on Glen Cove covering up the sanitary piping and they started the the block wall which is almost probably finished by now. This is like four or five days ago. Um today there also on the left hand side for the cooling tower we're uh we're installing insulation for the pipe so it doesn't uh burst and a lot of framing going on also that's on top the the upper level the library section. Uh same thing here drywall finishing and uh framing. That's pretty much it. Any questions? I know it it keeps like repeating, but uh to us when we see it finished, we we like it. [laughter] So, >> any questions? >> Looking good. >> Thank

015you. >> That looks great. >> Thank you all. >> Item 4.02, minor construction project updates. Mr. Todd Kaggels. >> Madam Chair, members of the board, we just have a few updates uh this evening on some stuff we have been able to accomplish in between plowing snow and doing all the things we've had to do over the last couple of weeks. Uh out at Hidden Valley Middle School, we're still set for spring break for uh the third phase of that ceiling and LED lighting uh replacement. You guys have seen the phase two uh phase one, phase two pictures. Phase three is on track to start over spring break uh out at Fort Lewis. The board did pay for uh that sign. Remember, this is the cooling tower. We extended the brick wall all the way up

016uh to cover the cooling tower. And then the board did pay for the entry sign. That's actually a nice size sign. It just looks small because that's a large brick wall now that you have that extension on there. And uh so this is done. This project's done except we'll come back when the weather warms up and we'll pressure wash those capstones at the top to make sure that they that they look good. But otherwise, that project is is complete and it looks great. Uh Glenn Elementary School. We've got those restrooms, but that's a uh that's a summer project. Uh Kring High School, we're renovating the snack bar uh out there. Um all the interior demolition is complete. The electrical service upgrade is complete. The block work for the service window height adjustment. Remember, we raised

017those uh windows to make them more functional. Uh that's been completed. The furring out of the walls and the drywall uh we've actually uh painted as of yesterday. And uh the new equipment is on order. Some of it's already here actually down in the warehouse. Uh that's just before they finished the drywall and you can kind of see what a nice job they did framing everything out and making everything uh making everything look good there. So they are they're coming right along. Uh we were actually just picking paint colors and laminate colors for the cabinets this week. That's that'll be our hold up. Now, the the laminate uh for the for the custom cabinets uh will take uh I don't know, six weeks or so to get cabinets, and the guys will move on during

018that time, do some other things, and then come back to the snack bar when when the cabinets are ready. Uh out at North Side High School, the new stadium lights are finished. That's uh the first night that they turned them on out there. Uh they look great. Like the difference that it's made in the way the stadium looks is amazing. I mean, it makes that field pop. just the colors and everything that are uh you know that you can see now that I really wish we had a before and an after because you know this just looks like a lit up field but if you could see the before picture you would you'd really appreciate what a difference that that uh makes in that stadium out there. Uh and just a reminder of the board

019uh so when we did the lighting study uh we checked all four stadiums and uh at the time Cavering was the best, William Bird was the worst. We replaced the lights at William Bird. The next worst was North Side High School. We replace that now. And then Glenn High School was the next one. Uh Kring had a newer nonLEDD but a newer um system. And so their lights were were were pretty good. So um just the that's just a nugget for the board to start thinking about whether or not we want to also do the lighting upgrade at uh at Glenber that we did at the other stadiums. That's just what the um the new poles, lights, and the electrical um uh switch gear looks like over there. If you had seen it before, you'd

020see what a big difference in appearance all of that stuff is going to make uh as well. The electrical uh stuff that was out there before was uh way antiquated and added on to sort of peace meal and uh looks fantastic. Stadium looks great. uh out at Hidden Valley High School. Uh they finished the pad. They were compacting it in that photo there. They uh this just another closer up uh picture of them doing the compaction and then they actually started rolling out the turf. So, uh those guys are they were working up until the Friday that it snowed, uh getting the turf rolled out and that kind of thing. And of course, now it's all buried under, you know, still six inches of snow and ice. So works come to a stop, but they

021are uh right on track to get done by um end of February, mid-March, if if the weather will help us, which it looks like starting next week, it probably is. Um they're they're right on track. They're doing a fantastic job of knocking that out. And then the last one we have is the softball field out at um Bird Middle. We're expecting the uh final set of engineered plans uh actually tomorrow and then we'll be able to um start pricing out the the grade work and uh the fencing and and those things. That's all I have. We have any questions about any of those projects or any other projects that aren't on there? >> Thank you. >> Thanks, Todd. Item 4.03, review of calendar updates. Miss Tammy Nukem. [snorts] Okay. Good afternoon. Um, in front of

022you, I've put the 25 26, 26, 27, and 2728 calendar. Um, first, um, I would like for you to look at the top calendar, which is the 2526 calendar. Um we are requesting approval to move the early dismissal currently scheduled for April 22nd to April 21st. The original April 22nd early dismissal conflicts with the little feet meet um which is being held that day on Ren College. And this event involves a significant number of our students and staff and families and an early dismissal on that day would create logistical challenges related to transportation supervision and participation. So by shifting the early dismissal to April 21st, we can better support student participation in the Little Feet meet. Also, um there is a possibility of a special election on April 21st, which would mean our schools would

023have to be closed. And if that's the case, then we've already scheduled 20 the 21st to be a um a day that's different, which would have been an early dismissal. So we could make that um a full day teacher work day and also give us the opportunity for the middle school to still do their student led conferences. Um so we would request if you know if everyone's in agreement that um we could put that on the consent agenda for the next meeting that fee meet is a great event. It is >> I've been going for years. It's awesome. >> And Renick College doesn't release that date um before we do the calendar. So, we had just gotten that information. >> So, the 21st we would be closed though, right? >> No, right now it would

024still be at early dismissal day. So, we're just shifting it. >> What she's suggesting is we've got to move the early dismissal anyway on 22nd. Originally, we were going to move it till the 23rd, but now that we know the possibility of the 21st, go ahead and move it till the 21st. But yes, >> we kind of know the answer to that. >> Well, but it's it's he'll held up in the courts that Okay. Right. So, if the courts rule that, hey, you [clears throat] can't do that, then they won't have the election. Okay. >> But we'll still keep it as an or dismissal, but >> it's a possibility. >> If not, we'll go ahead and close that day. It'll be it'll be on that same day versus having these two different days in play.

025>> I got >> And then if you look at um the 2627 calendar um we needed to do adjustments to that calendar in order to align with the teacher contract which is a requirement of 200 working days. The current calendar reflects 202 teacher work days. So to address this discrepancy, we would like to take the parent teacher conference day be moved to March 15th, which actually aligns better with our um end of the nine weeks instead of February 8th and then make February 8th actually a school closed day um which would add back one of the um the days over and then March 29th have that as a closed day also and also for Easter holiday. that would give the two days from 202 to 200. Um, and that these adjustments bring the calendar into

026compliance with the contract of 200A which is required. And then the last calendar is the calendar for 2728 just um that's the first draft. It does mirror the other two um calendars um that we have in place currently. also would like to um just keep you updated about um snow days. Um Jamie does a great job of keeping up this um >> spreadsheet of where our days are in time and right now we're still at seven days of bank days and that includes like the days that are listed as makeup days, but we we say all of them are bank days. Um, the only discrepancy would be Burlington has two hours less than the other schools because they had to get out of school early one day due to power outage, but I I still

027think we're in a pretty good pretty good spot unless we have more weather. So, >> so just clarify, you have to have 990 hours. >> So, back in the day, you had to have 180 days, but So, now if you calculate it by hours, we have a total of about seven days left. >> Yeah. before we have to make it up to get to the 990 hours. And it's usually elementary that is the barrier because the shorter day, >> but we did extend that day a couple years ago. So that has helped us out tremendously. >> So to consider >> well if everyone agrees for the 25 26 um and then the the changes we did for 26 27 28. Yes. >> Well, it's me. >> All right. Thank you. Thank you. Item 4.04, request

028to accept awards and appropriate funds, Miss Susan Peterson. Good afternoon, Madam Chair, members of the board. Um we have received two awards uh since we have last brought an award to you. Um and it is our typical board policy. Uh any unbudgeted award comes to you for approval of acceptance and then we have a special projects uh grant contingency from which we can appropriate the funds. Um we have enough to cover both of these awards. that we do not have to do to the board of supervisors because this is not going to increase our budget overall. The first item was uh 12,500 of donations to construct teacher picnic areas for the Venton schools. So it'll be William High, Middle uh Herman Horn, W Kundiff and Mount Pleasant elementary schools. Uh it'll be two $2,500 appropriated

029to each of these schools for picnic areas for future appreciation. Uh the other one is a 14,800 VOE mathematics grant. Um this will help us uh expand mathematics endorsements for middle school teachers uh by providing funds for teachers to take the practice exam and for uh special tutoring to help these teachers as well. And so if um approved by the school board, what we will request is that at the next meeting on February 19th, we roll this to consent agenda uh to accept both awards and appropriate the funds from uh grant special projects. >> Thank you. >> You guys want me to move over there or just pull my cord? >> Whichever you want to do. >> Consent also. >> Yes. Item 4.05, review committee report to explore the possibility of student random drug testing.

030Dr. Jamie Sulttus trying to get out of this. Sorry, Madam Chair, members of the board. Um, thank you for allowing me to report back from the committee that was asked by board the board to be formed to explore the possibility of uh, student random drug testing. I will say that I appreciate everybody who participated on the committee. Everybody was super actively engaged. Everybody was definitely not scared to share feedback. Um, and I appreciate all those people. So, just to get started here, here was the rep representative sample from our committee. So, I kind of chaired the committee. Uh, Miss Green, who's the high school princip, Lindseay O'Brien, who's both a teacher and a coach. Nathan Hungate, who's a parent and a former college athlete, uh, Anarono County athlete, [clears throat] Jason Murray, who's, uh, the

031high school AP., he's also been a high school athletic director and a coach at the middle and high school levels. Uh Kendra Irmal is a parent. Uh Jake Jacob Gr is a current teacher and coach in the county. Uh Kevin Tuck is a teacher and coach in the county. Heather Stevens is a parent. Allison Thornton uh is the current middle school AP and and AD because at the middle school level an AP serves as the AD generally. Neil Zimmerman who is a fantastic athlete in Ronok County as well and is a parent. Miss Fiona Hill, who's a middle school principal, and then uh Taylor aka Baby Gruce, uh was a student who is uh on the SACE, but is also an athlete. So had a pretty good wide representation. So the first thing I did

032with the committee is I went over what their actual purpose was and their purpose was to review the why. Like why would we even want to consider this? Is it aligned to our sea change framework? because everything we do from the budget on back should lead back to helping us accomplish our mission and vision which you can't do unless the parameters of the sea change framework are in place. Then I asked uh them to review some background information with me to review the legality review what research was available for us and there's not a whole lot and you'll see that and then gather information from school districts who are currently or who have implemented student random drug testing in their divisions and then to honestly after we consider all that make a recommendation to the

033board and if the committee came to the conclusion of yes make some logistical recommendations as well as to how it should be, how it should go, full-fledged pilot, how many should we test, who we should test, and make those recommendations. So, [clears throat] in looking at the alignment to our sea change framework, uh the committee did decide that it it would help promote a safer, healthier environment by focusing on hopefully deterring drug use and supporting students who may have an issue. Uh, everyone agreed there's no safe level of drug use has ever been established. And then at that age, any measurable amount of mindaltering drug or alcohol in a person's body could cause some degree of impairment. Uh even if that impairments not readily apparent to the layman or the coach or whoever. So when

034we sought about this though, we we had some goals uh that we came up with and that was to foster a safe and supportive environment where students can thrive academically, physically and socially. And our commitment is to help students make healthy choices that enhance their potential for success in both uh school and life. And then lastly, it's not everyone agreed that the the purpose of it should not be to be punitive. It should be to identify kids who are may be struggling with it or who may be starting to dabble and to provide uh resources for them. The therapeutic part was a huge focus of the committee. So [clears throat] the first thing we looked at was it legal and the short answer is yes. The Supreme Court has ruled on these. It is yes

035because you can do it for extracurricular activities because you can't do it for all kids in school because the the ability to go to school is a property right and you can test extracurriculars because they're basically not a property right. It's a choice. Um, and then the fact that the athletes had the opportunity to receive assessments and rehabilitative service services and not face school punishment, uh, was good. And then the fact that the other thing that was tested was, well, what if they refused to take the test? Could that count as a positive? And it was ruled that that is true that yes, if you refuse to take the test and you're participating in the extracurricular, then you can uh give a consequence that that does not abridge their property right because they're still able

036to come to school. All right. So the next thing we did is we looked at some data sources that we had to see if we currently had a problem. Uh so we looked at the youth risk behavior data that is shared with us uh traditionally by Nancy Hans. Um I think it's every other year. Is that correct, Sean? and Sean vape data, which we now have vape detectors. So, we're um have probably more accurate data than we did prior to the detectors when people were just kind of like catching discipline before the video cameras. And then lastly, just overall discipline data of what we're seeing in the schools with what comes up here to our DRT committee and what's been getting referred to the school board. So all in all, our YBS data said that

037high school and middle school students report decreases in alcohol, tobacco, marijuana, dabbing, and prescription drug use. If you look at the longitudinal data from 2014 to 24. So the survey would indicate we're actually have less usage. Doesn't mean we don't have any, but less usage. Then the discipline data indicated an increase in the number of students who are second and third time SAP or SAP contract violators. And we've seen that even through close sessions uh and through the number of of DRTs that we're seeing where uh young people are being caught the second and third time even after having been at ACEP and then going back to their regular school. And then lastly, and this is this is data that obviously in in 2021-22 when we had 106 vape related incidents, we didn't have the

038detectors. And now this past year, now these are these are incidents that resulted in a consequence. This is not like the detector just went off. You actually caught the kid with it or or uh could prove that he had it. So it jumped up to 243 in 2024, 2025. So me just being a generalist, I don't necessarily think you can say it's worse, but we definitely still have kids using vapes. >> Can I ask a question? >> Yes, sir. That last one. >> Yes, sir. >> Is vaping is that just mean non narcotic type stuff? >> So that would be uh correct me if I'm wrong, Miss Nukem, but that would be all of them, whether it be the tobacco vape or it be the Yeah, the THC vapes. Right. Okay. And then if if

039you move through the next thing we wanted to do was find any research we could which I'll be honest with you there's a possity of research uh in this area to we found three articles and I actually had a professor at Radford helping me try to find articles because he had access to systems I don't necessarily have on the effectiveness of student random drug testing. So I did link and it's tiny really small but for anybody who would want to look up the actual three articles uh on the bottom of the slide but the first research article that we looked at in in reading the abstract and through going through the articles. So what we did is we broke up into groups and shared the articles and we read and then we kind of discussed

040what what were the main points we're seeing from this. Right? which you're reading research articles and unless you're kind of used to reading research articles, they're not exactly the easiest things in the world to read. Um, but the first article um basically [clears throat] said that it kind of does show promise in reducing elicit substance use among high school students. There was less drug use at the schools with student random drug testing than there were at the schools without. uh but the the impacts of the study were measured for only one year and it may not represent longerterm effects. And the other thing I would say about the research articles are they were older than what we would typically use because there hasn't been a whole lot of new research. So then research article number

041two we looked at was from the American Academy of Pediatrics. And if I'm not mistaken, I'm doing this off my brain so it might not be exactly right, but I think it was 2021 that they actually looked at this again. Is that correct? Um, and basically they they say they don't support it as much. And the reason they don't support it as much is because there's not a whole lot of good research out there that proves the overall effectiveness. It basically says they've they have more research that backs education and educational programs across the board reducing it than than student random drug testing. They're not saying it doesn't work. They're just saying there's not a whole lot of evidence and there's apparently been a lot more studies with research on education programs. And then research

042article [clears throat] number three basically said there no strong conclusions can be drawn. However, there is evidence of lower marijuana use in the presence of a student random drug testing. And then I think it was in that article as well. It basically said the kids that knew they were going to get testing tested there was decreases in there but there was no impact necessarily on the overall general population. I believe that's >> which you could make the assumption then well then maybe it does deter but that's just my >> assump what you can't prove cause and effect this caused that to happen but there's >> could be a correlation >> correlation >> but not a causation >> there is something >> all right so Dr. Dr. Nicely was was used his connections in region in

043our region six and other school divisions across the state and kind of just asked who has a program and who doesn't. So, these are the ones that that responded. Some people were asking like why would a local division not be on here? Well, it could be they just didn't respond to the email. Um, so the ones we found that did is Bodat County started it back up this year as I'm sure you guys were aware. They had had it before and then they cut it. I don't know the reason for them cutting it, whether it was drug testing. I mean, I'm sorry, cost or or the cost return on investment. I can't answer that question. I can tell you that in talking with uh people over there, one of the reasons they wanted to start

044it back is because they were seeing an an increase in the the number of kids under the influence who were also involved in extracurriculars, whether it be driving or participating in a a non-required graduation thing. Salem. Yes. I think they started theirs in like 2008 and for a long time they did survey uh the students and ask do you think it's effective? Does it did you choose not to participate because of and all their results were always on the good side. So then they stopped surveying uh a few years back but they still stand behind theirs. Pulasi it says stopped on July 23rd 2025. uh they had it and and actually found the newspaper article where they had only caught like 30 kids over a 10-year period and so they decided it wasn't worth their

045while and understand a lot of these things deter are determined by the quality of the test you have, the quality of the testing company you have. Um so those things can happen. And then Scott County replied yes. And then when I reached out to to the person who was doing it, he said, "Well, I got to be honest with you. we have we still have it like as part of our thing but we haven't actually tested anybody since co so that was why that had an asterk in the original PowerPoint but um some stakeholders pointed that out so I wanted to explain why so the next thing we did is we wanted to review costs so we looked at what if we did 10% of the population of the athletes or I'm saying athletes but

046extracurricular participants or 20% and then we also looked at including steroids or no steroid testing. And then we looked at, okay, do we want to include students who purchase a parking pass versus not including students who purchase a parking pass because all the divisions we talked to, they all had very similar protocols, but like who they tested and how many they tested was not the same. Um, I think Bodat was the only one that was actually testing student drivers. So, [clears throat and cough] and we looked at this based on an estimate of uh I had reached out to a company who's who's doing the testing for several of these divisions, and it's basically was about $95 a test if we didn't include steroids. And it was about $21 a test if we did include

047I'm saying steroids, but performance-enhancing drugs. And then there's an annual 200 fe $200 fee per school to administer the program. And then there's a $100 setup fee each time they perform a test at the school. >> I'm sorry, David, go ahead. >> Can you go over those numbers again? >> That's what I was going to say. $95 per test per student. >> It's about $95 a test. >> Wow. >> And then uh the the um [clears throat] performance enhancing if you include that, it's $21 a test. So the way I came up with the cost is I had asked all the ads to share with me and all the principles to share with me parking passes that had been purchased to compile the numbers and I I based the estimate off of the participation numbers

048and the parking numbers to kind of figure out what the total cost would be. So the total cost what we came up with with and I don't have all the numbers in front of me but the 10% without steroids is about $53,000 um to and that's to we don't ever want school personnel touching the samples. We want to make [clears throat] sure that the company's coming in the company's you know are the ones making sure it's that kid using the restroom. They seal it up. They take a backup sample in case a parent wants to appeal. So school personnel never touch it and that's important because we don't want to be the responsible one for somebody saying we tampered with anything. So it would have to be a credential test testing company such as Intercept

049to do this. So [clears throat] the next thing we did is after we did all this we wanted to get some feedback from students. Uh, and I give uh baby Gr the credit for this because he's like, "Why don't we run this by the SACE?" Which was a great idea, right? You got a a group of kids, a lot of them play sports, some of them don't. So, what the SACE feedback was was 27 out of 28 members shared that they supported student random drug testing. um qualitative data comments came out you know amongst the group of well might not have export team because of the kids that are using some of that speculation on their part I'm sure uh some of that they probably know one or two kids and they jump to conclusions

050but then some of that may be actual true I mean I don't know um the SACE [clears throat] was split on should we test drivers was 17 to 11. So that's kind of a definitely they weren't certain on whether we should do that. The biggest thing, well, two of the biggest things they said is steroids were not necessary. Like they don't see a whole lot of performance-enhancing drug usage, at least from their mind. And I I gave you guys my anecdotal evidence if I haven't seen anybody who looks like they're on it, but no offense to anybody out there. [laughter] And then the other thing that they consistently came through in their feedback is they are all about this program as long as it doesn't have a negative impact on the budget, which that was

051just their their lens. They wanted to make sure it didn't take away from something that they cared about. And I don't mean they don't care about drug testing, but like that we cut something that they wanted. So the other way we got feedback is the committee. It's it's there's a lot of pressure in there to vote all looking at each other, right? So, they had no problem discussing each other, but we made sure we gave anonymous feedback loops through surveys to determine whether or not they agreed or disagreed. And the last survey we gave that said they recommended moving forward was 7 to 10. I don't know who said yes and I don't know who said no on the committee but since seven did that was the majority >> seven of 10 did I say

052seven did 10 didn't I'm sorry >> seven out of 10 who responded said yes we should move forward so from there there were several who were vocal about I I think yes but with some conditions and some of those conditions were making sure we had strong therapeutic support for the kids, which was pretty universal. Everybody wanted that. And number two, there was debates on the consequences uh that would be there and and there were some who thought the first time it should be more focused on therapy and less on missing the games and missing the practices and then there were some that didn't think that would send the message. So, you got everybody's different viewpoints coming in, right? So I compiled all the conditions, moved it ahead to the committee to say, "Okay, you're basically

053the majority are saying we want it. So if I'm going to present this to the board, can y'all come up to some consensus recommendations that would then everybody who were saying yes supports yes." So moving on through that, here were the committee recommendations. They honestly want to see if it works. So they wanted to see a pilot and they wanted that pilot to be as least disruptive as possible with still having enough people participating to where they felt like they could get accurate data to determine whether or not at least the kids because they want to see a survey with the kids basically being asked. Does this the fact we have this program helped support you in in your ability to say no or to not try deterrent? Um, they also said they wanted a

054really strong communication plan out to parents on what would be tested, uh, how often things would be tested, what were the consequences, basically laying the whole program out before the start of the fall season if we went in the fall. [clears throat] And then any other additional data we could collect which would be things like um how many kids were positive, how effective do we think the therapeutic sessions were, things of that nature. So they suggested we do 10% of high school only starting at high school who chose to participate in athletics andor VHSL sanctioned competitive extracurricular activities [clears throat] not required by the board of education for graduation. So that's going to be your basketballs, that's going to be football, baseball. That's also going to be things like the academic bowl team um and

055things like that. So but we cannot this is just their recommendations. We can we can change that. >> Does that include band require stuff? >> So band is that that one would be a no. >> That's more cocurricular. >> Yeah, because that's more co-curricular. CTE like Skills USA and things like that. They're kind of co-curricular because you're you're required if you offer the like uh welding you're required to have a CTSO which is a career teacher student organization where those kids have to have the opportunity to be a part of that organization and compete. >> So to me that's a gray area of co-curricular right. Um >> what just because some people might be asking so you I mean the sports piece is obvious and you mentioned other things that are VHSL related that are

056not co-curricular we do have other clubs that aren't co-curricular would you envision including those or >> no sir like Spanish club >> yeah no we wouldn't test the Spanish club or the French club or the whatever club these >> they're not connected to a class >> and they're not collected to a class and they're not really a VHSL sponsored activity. >> Okay. >> All right. And the other thing though they said is well we think you should start at the high school but we and I was not even in here when they did this recommendation. Miss Green took over this part for me. So because I didn't want my influence. They did believe that eighth graders if they were participating on a JV team, they're part of the high school sports team. They should be

057tested. [clears throat] Um they would only be tested during their participation season. um students become eligible upon a return of a signed consent form. So parents would have to sign a consent form. Uh they cannot participate on that activity though if we're requiring it until they turn in that form. So you couldn't have Mr. Lynon whose parent is refusing to let him participate that in that playing basketball while Mr. Hudson's parents have signed it and he's playing basketball. Until you returned it, if you guys adopt this, it would be you can't play unless you returned it. Um, also you would remain eligible from the submission of the signed consent form through the last day of the activity. And then we would develop protocols for students with prescription drugs and over-the-counter medications. And we would work

058with whatever testing company we went with to determine what would those protocols be. It could be the medical review officer actually calling the parent. Uh, not to pick on um, Miss Clemens, but let's say Miss Clemens was on ADHD medication and she tested positive. Would it be the med medical review officer that calls her parents and says, "Hey, we need to can you verify that so and so is on ADHD that your son or daughter?" Um, [clears throat] because over the counter will sometimes test you positive. Now, the good thing is, in my experience in doing these things, even like an uh everything bagel with the poppy seeds, the tests are so sensitive, it will it will flag you. But the medical review officers are really good at looking at, okay, what the level is

059and what is the odds of that actually being a narcotic versus it being, you know, uh, ate an everything bagel for breakfast. And then the other thing they asked is that we do as the best of our abilities to maintain confidentiality that we followed um Virginia code. And basically what we've come up with is the only people who would uh be knowledgeable of this would be the student obviously the parent and the designated school officials. And if I'm you I'm asking well who is that? Well, the coach is going to have to know, right? Because you're going to have to tell a kid it can't play if if that's one of the consequences. The principal is going to need to know and the athletic director. And then basically, you have the meeting. And if it

060would be Miss Nukem or whoever would oversee the program because at the end of all this, you'll see that once the kid graduates, you shred all this. This doesn't go in anybody's student record at all. All right. They also said that they would want to follow very strict protocols and procedures for testing. They wanted it to be random selection. Uh they wanted it to be administered and conducted by a certified third party testing agency. And that's real important to me as well. I don't want anybody being able to accuse any of our staff of tampering with samples or anything. It would be coordinated by uh our executive director of administration, the esteemed Miss Nukem, as well as high school administrators, athletic directors. They would work out whoever would be actually physically getting the kids in

061the building at the school for the testing. Testing would take place at the school in a secure location. So, I can tell you that usually what happens is the testing company comes in, they they dip dye in the toilet so that a kid can't just, you know, dip out of the toilet water. Uh, and they don't stand there and watch it, but they kind of observe them without being like right up on them. What we would test for [clears throat] would be alcohol, nicotine, THC, synthetic cannibids, uh, opiates, cocaine, methamphetamines, and any other substance defined as a controlled substance by either Virginia or federal law, which is pretty standard minus the um, performance-enhancing drugs. And then who would analyze it would be the medical review officer who works for either independent that like a testing

062company sends it to or is an employee is a physician uh employed by the the agency. So then I know I'm giving you a lot of information quick so stop me at any time if you have questions. So, the first offense for a positive result, what the group was recommending is that they would be suspended for the next event or game, but we would still let the kid practice and and um dress out, right? And if that's only true if they're willing to and actively participating in the therapeutic intervention, if you if you refuse to do the therapeutic intervention, you're not you're not playing for the second offense. And these are not nicotine. This is anything but nicotine. we had a little bit different rules they wanted for nicotine. You would miss 20% of the

063regular season, whatever's left. Uh, and if the season ends prior to the consequences served, it would carry over to the next season played by the student athlete. So, let's say Mr. Hudson is a wrestler and all he does is wrestle and he tests positive and we only got 10% of the suspension in, he would start off the next year with 10% of the suspension in wrestling. Now, but if you ran track, it could carry over into track and cancel it out there. They also wanted it to be that you either uh but we're still letting kids practice and dress out. We still want them to be part of something versus ostracizing them. And then must provide a clean test or the or trending down to return to play. And the reason we said trending down

064is because by the time you get the next test, some of these these things stay in your system a really long time. And They can tell from the the test whether or not it's been a recent usage or um you know it's something that they're still testing positive from where they were in a car with somebody who smoked marijuana. [clears throat] Third offense with non-nicotine. They wanted a 365 calendar day suspension from all VHSL events to include practices. So basically, they're saying if you fail this test three times, and we're not talking about nicotine, we're talking about one of the other drugs, you have you're not it's not helping you. You're not learning your lesson. So, I know we're going to talk about therapy in in a few minutes, but we also ramp up the

065the um type of therapy and the and how our intervention is going to be, your first time versus your second time versus your third time. And we also are going to do a substance abuse assessment before we decide how many sessions and all that thing. that that will all be personalized. And then the [clears throat] fourth offense, if if you do it four times, you just can't ever play it. You're done. So nicotine was a little different. The first offense is the same that basically you miss the next game, but you can practice and dress out for the second offense. And anything after that with nicotine, they basically said that you just missed 10% of the regular season. So then if you miss 10%, you get caught again during that season. Well, now you're missing

066the the rest of the 10% forever in puity, but they would not ever like go 365 or kick the kid off for for nicotine. All right. The other thing to remember is if a student tests positive, let's say that Mr. Hudson tests positive in wrestling. Um, >> okay, let me switch it off. Dr. White is [laughter] sorry Brent if Dr. White >> must be a history [laughter] >> I should have used performance-enhancing drugs to make it believable. Anyway, if Dr. White uh was caught during wrestling with marijuana. Um he would be included in the subsequent test as long as he was participating for a calendar year even [clears throat] if it was a different sport because we're really trying to help people stay clean is is the goal and to make sure they're getting the

067therapy they need. So when would it be considered a positive test or consequences? a confirmed test by the the MRO, refusing to participate if you were tested. Um, I will say in one of when I've done this before, I did have a kid, well, I'm I'm not on his team and kid just removed himself from the team because he knew he was going to test positive. Um, that would be a positive test. Leaving school without proper documentation after being selected to provide a sample. So basically the way it works is you put it in the they randomly generate who gets tested. The AD will get that list probably the day before. If the kids at school that day because they'll certainly but if they start calling or texting or doing whatever then and they leave

068school and they don't have proper documentation that's considered a positive test because they're basically avoiding being tested. And then if they tamper with the specimen, so like if a kid brings in some kind of bag with urine in it and tries to do that. Sad, but it does happen. Um, [clears throat] notification of testing results. We would develop a procedure to right away inform the parents or guardian of the positive tests and what are the next steps. The next steps would would include obtaining a a consent form for therapeutic intervention. We could if you guys decide to do this, we would iron this out. But I definitely think there should be a meeting between the AD, the coach, the parent, and the kid. So, basically talking about what was discovered, what are the therapeutic interventions,

069what's the commitment, and doing all those things. Um, and then Sean, I'm going to ask you to jump in here and help me on this. So, I've really worked with Shawn to develop therapeutic inter interventions because the committee recommended for the pilot at least that we use our life counselors who are certified counselors who all can can um provide therapy for substance abuse. We start there before we go outside. But in the budget request, I did include extra money in case we needed somebody that might need more intensive supports. So you want to take over? >> Sure. So for the um nicotine piece for violation number one, we would use researchbased materials. So what we've looked at is the Stanford Medicine Research Lab. Um it's a vape free curriculum. There would be five [clears throat]

070modules that our students would participate in and then it would be overseen by our life counselors with some followup with them on the content of the education. Um so the goal of that curriculum would be to help our students to understand the risk of harm for vaping. Um to help them to understand the marketing strategies that are used all of the time to encourage vape use um which causes our kids to become addicted. We would help them to gain some skills on how to refuse um vape materials. But ultimately the idea would be to help them reduce their use and then ultimately prevent any future use. And so that would be for violation number one. And then violation number two that happens again, we would also in uh have mandatory participation in a life counseling

071group and we would focus um on different things using evidence-based materials. Some of those materials um that we've looked at um one of them's called BOTV. Um it's a life skills training. There's about 40 years of peer-reviewed research on this program. Um it is one of the programs that's often used in a school environment with students that are using the research for this program shows that if kids really focus on three main skills then their use uh of doing risky behaviors decreases. And so those skills are drugresistant skills um helping them to recognize and challenge common misconceptions about tobacco, alcohol and other substances. [clears throat] um personal self-management skills, helping them to work on their behaviors, helping them to learn how to work on goals. Um again, risk of harm, how the choices of their

072substances impact them currently with what they're doing, and then also how it can impact them in the future. And then just with decision makingaking skills, um we need to help our young people understand that they come in contact with lots of tough choices, but they can make um healthier uh choices for themselves. And then the last area is just generalized social skills to help them to learn how to communicate effectively and how to refuse when a peer comes to them and offers substances. Teaching them how those skills to be able to do that. Um let's see. And then the next piece for students that are using substances other than um nicotine, we'll have the licensed life counselor do a substance assessment. The substance assessment will help us to understand whether or not a student has

073a high probability of a substance use disorder. Um if it's basic experimentation, education is the key and that's where we can actually provide a um [snorts] program. One of the evidence-based programs is called teen intervening. Um it's a combination of cognitive behavioral therapy, motivational interviewing and uh stages of change for the adolescent. So we would do an initial assessment followed by three individual sessions um with the student to work on them on skills. If they had a second violation then we would also do a mandatory participation in a life counseling substance group and there we can um use researchbased materials and provide more intensive interventions and strategies for our students. Um each one of the assessments that would be done for a student that's using a substance other than nicotine, if we identify that there's

074a high probability that the student has an addiction or a substance use disorder, we would certainly handle that on a case by case because what we know is that we do have some students that are addictive and they need intensive outpatient programs, >> which is why I added the extra $30,000 roughly to the budget request. just in case we needed support uh to help kids. So, the committee's recommendation [clears throat] was that you guys, they said we should you guys should approve a pilot uh for next school year using this information as a guide to develop the final program, but also to evaluate whether or not this program is even effective. Um, so eventually if you guys say yes and and I'll just be honest with you, I I would not request you all to

075vote on this tonight because this is the kind of thing that I think you would want to hear from give community members a chance to chime in. Um, and at the end of the day, let's say we get I just want to say if you if you guys do say yes, we want to move forward, then we would just have to start the RFP process. We'd have to work out iron out all the details. I'd get a team together here to iron out all the specific details. We create a communication plan uh with Chuck's help, including a a Ron County Public School student random drug testing booklet that would have all the information that we would share with every athlete during meetings uh before their season starts. So, and [snorts] that's all I have. >>

076So, pretty much information >> questions or comments? I I think I'll I'll throw out a couple comments if that's all right. And and first off, thank you so much Dr. Sulttus and to the committee for all the diligent work and looking into this issue. I think it does highlight the need for us to be both looking at and figuring out how to address substance use disorder and students because it is a problem and that's why we're talking about it. Um I think the as you pointed out these articles are not necessarily meant for the layman. They're written in archaic ways and and um research articles are are definitely uh difficult to interpret. But um the consensus uh across all three is that um there's there's not the evidence to support drug testing as an effective

077tool for what our goals are, which is to support healthy decision- making and prevention of substance use in the students. Um, I think the one that offered probably the most uh insight into what we could do was the one from the American Academy of Pediatrics that pointed out the um the strength and power in schoolwide preventative education and having a trained mental health counselor dedicated to offering um intervention for individuals that were identified. And and I I think they even pointed out in there that um for about the same cost to run a small program like this for a moderate-sized high school uh would support the uh salary of a mental health provider. So that's something for us to consider. Um I I think um that article also did a good job highlighting some of

078the potential risks from a medical side. Um, and I unfortunately I'm I'm privy to a lot of what goes on in in the community out there and in my professional work. And some of the things these articles pointed out is um data did suggest that while they may have decreased cannabis use during the uh the window where they were being tested, um there was evidence that they were diverting to uh more elicit drugs that weren't on that panel. uh or synthetics that aren't on that panel. And um unfortunately the um one of the big things we see in our area, vape shops where they're getting vapes, they're getting THC vapes. Um they're also selling um dangerous substances that are are not regulated. Um herbals of of various things, a big thing on our radar right

079now um that does not get routinely tested. You can test for it. it's going to cost you a pretty penny and u it's it's not worth testing it on a wide scale. Um so I I I I think that the um the the drug test piece of it is not necessarily addressing the goals that we've set out. Um I think the um the committee has done a great job at at pointing out the goals that we need to focus on though and I I thank you for that. >> Thank you. >> Any other comments? [clears throat] Yeah, I I too would like to thank the committee for volunteering their time and energy um in exploring this issue. got some concerns um as to whether an educational piece may be more beneficial um and and trying

080to make sure these kids understand that we care about them not just when they're athletes in our schools, but we care about making sure that they understand this is something they shouldn't do once their season's over or once they're out of high school or um that that the piece to try to keep them educate them in that this really is not good for them is is important. So, and I wonder if 10% if we're just testing 10% is that enough of a deterrent. Um, and we I heard $53,000, but I can't imagine that's just the drug testing alone. That's not going to be any cost for counseling services or therapeutic intervention or anything along those lines. >> So, the therapeutic intervention would be back be provided by our in-house life counselors that we already have

081on staff and then the extra is I think I put it in at 90 something,000 in the budget request. That's that 30,000 would be towards if we had some kid that needed intensive supports. >> Yeah. So you were talking 53,000 and 30,000 if I heard correctly. >> Yes. So basically the 53,000 is basically for >> Yeah. Not 153 I think. >> Yeah. It's 53,000 for just the testing the 10%. >> And it would be 10% of each activity, not 10% total. didn't do a very good job [clears throat] of explaining that. It would be like 10% of the basketball players would get tested during basketball season and 10% of the football players would be tested during football season. Every activity would have 10% tested, not 10% of the entire pool put into >> Yeah. So,

082I'm sorry, I should have explained that. [cough] And that's still in that cost. And I also wonder if it would potentially drive student athletes away from some of those positive role models that we I mean we know coaches are are very positive role models. Are they deciding not to play or or taking them away from those positive role models? Just some concerns. Um >> and I think that's a valid concern to be honest with you. I mean I think that the group talked about that. We had a lot of former athletes, former coaches, you know, and and they were like me. I was a former athlete. I know it doesn't look like it, but I was at one time. And if I said I would say I'm not going to risk my sport because I

083was passionate about the sport, right? [clears throat] But if you have a problem, you may not say that. Um, but trust me, you're talking to somebody who a coach made the biggest difference in his life. So, at the end of the day, yes, I worry about that, too. Well, I think along those lines, something that we talked about in that those committee meetings was there are students that maybe the only reason they're showing up is to play a sport and you hate to to take away I mean obviously they're doing something to harm themselves but at the same time you do hate the idea of taking something away from them which is the one reason that they're showing up. So that was a discussion that we had um in the meetings. Um, the other thing

084that stuck with me was that one of the research articles talks about that it doesn't really have an effect on anyone who knows they're not getting tested. So then you wonder like what kind of impact are you having truly in the large scheme of things, right? Because those other students will continue to do what they're doing because they know that there's no chance of being tested. So that's a big segment of our schools, right? So that's >> and then we're restricted there by what who we are legally allowed to test, >> right? But the research said that knowing that you're not going to get tested means that you're not affected by the fact that the testing is happening, right? So that which makes sense, right? Um I'm sorry I interrupted you. [laughter] >> Okay. Um

085I've got a question. So Dr. White brought up a good point. Substances such as which is terrible. Um and I've witnessed people get hooked on that. And I mean they go through withdrawals like opioids. Yes. I mean it's terrible. So, I know they consistently change these formularies. I mean, are these tests kept up to date to where they if if kids are using these? Because we know that the majority of our kids are using substances that they're getting at gas stations, >> right? >> Versus heroin or meth and things like that. So, are these tests viable for th I mean, you may know that from your >> Yeah. Yeah. Generally speaking, when we want to test specifically for a lot of these um newer synthetics or or herbal compounds, we have to specifically do an

086add-on to whatever we're running. These typical p uh panels that they're using for drug screen, urine drug screens, um will not have those on there. >> See, that would bother me because I feel like that the most most of our kids because it's the accessibility of it, you know, anybody anymore. I mean, it shouldn't be this way. And I wish legislation would do something in Richmond instead of trying to make everything legal. Uh, you know, maybe do something about this stuff. But we know it's affecting our kids. I mean, they're getting the vapes, they're getting all this THC, they're getting stuff from from these local shops. So, if we're just going to test for this stuff, we're completely overlooking what pretty much 99% of what we're finding in the schools, we're just overlooking it. So,

087I'm not so sure that that's the best route. spending $100,000 and we're really not or 53 and 30, whatever it would be, but we're really not testing for what we all we know everybody's using. >> And it sounds like that's expensive to test for. >> It it is typically expensive to test for >> and and I think one of these pointed out that too, like you get a false sense of okay, we're on the right track of what we're doing because you're missing some of these things. >> And from what I've read, some of these things, I mean, they they literally act like opioids like cratom what you mentioned. >> Yeah, absolutely. So, I may be missing the entire point of what we're doing here if if we're going to the point of saying we

088just spent probably what four or five months with this committee of what I would consider experts or folks, you know, just like when we did the phone, even though we didn't have many in that that said we should allow phones in the high schools, we went with what they recommended. So, we have this committee that says they feel like we should start this pilot program. $90,000 in the scope of a 180 million whatever our budget is is is peanuts. And we've got SACE, the kids that actually a group that's kids that are bought in, good kids that are bought into uh all of our schools that says in a 27 of 28 vote that we should pilot this to try it. We have the committee that says uh 7 to three that's been a part

089of this for um four or five months of of putting this together. We just did uh this is going off topic but we just did a 10 committee uh group uh for recommendations on our CTE committee which we listened to and we should have listened to and we should have took their recommendations. We have uh not a punitive. We're not we're not trying to crush the kid. This is not this is a rehabilitative thing. We want to help these kids, right? We don't want to the committee of what I'm hearing is that was a big concern. They do not want to crush these kids, you know, like let's get rid of them after the first one. Let's get rid of them after the second one. You know, let's work with them. Uh we have Dr.

090Hughes, who says that her her uh group can can help and facilitate uh the responses to these kids. um $90,000 is the cost to try a pilot program just to try it and see if it is something that um you know we we've heard from committee members that um that were athletes that said look if they'd have had this they wouldn't have done this at a party or wouldn't have done that at a party because the threat of this again I don't know but I'm just I'm listening to what they're saying um and and Dr. Hughes, I'd like to hear your your comments as to what and I don't want to put you on the spot, but [clears throat] am I wrong, but I mean, should we not test this or >> I think ultimately

091it's a board decision. Um, I think for us to identify kids that are struggling and being able to target them directly with therapeutic interventions is a good thing, right? We want to help kids particularly while they're in the school environment before they turn 18 and move on with their life. So I mean ideally um we would have kids reach out for help but I think what we all know is it happens in all different types of ways. Um so if we can identify kids in whatever way in order to be able to provide supportive services I think that that's a good opportunity. >> Thank you. And so my thought was and we know from our closed sessions I don't know if all of them but in the last 6 8 10 months 85 90% I'm

092just throwing this number out because I obviously don't have a quantifiable exactly but I would say 80 85% of the kids that came through were vaping. And y'all know that I ask every time, "Are you addicted? Do you have a problem? What can we do to help you? How can we help? We want you to succeed. We want you to to help you." And then we get a program here. And I'm just going off what comments I'm hearing and kind of frustrated, shaking my head as to why we would tell this committee that we know better than you that we entrusted you to come up with this idea and and come up with a pilot plan. So, you know, I'm not going to go go crazy on it, but I want I want to help

093our kids. And I've got five grandkids that are going to come through these programs. I don't know if they'll be athletes or not, but that they're trending. And I would be ultra supportive of this program. Personally, again, this is just my personal belief and opinion, but to go again to go against the committee's recommendation and $90,000, again, that's a lot of money, but in the scope of 100, I forget what we 200 million, whatever our budget is. Um, it seems like peanuts to take this opportunity to to do a pilot project and you know to uh how do you identify these kids if you don't have some kind of testing program? You know, I mean, do you just go in there and pick them out? Hey, I think you're using let's let's you know, let's

094try and help you if we don't know that, but we're going to >> I'm actually wondering if Dr. if you have to put you on the spot here a little bit just because uh those of us been around a while and know the history of like our life counselor program. I think it might be useful for the board and the public just to kind of know some background briefly about that because it actually started off as you know our substance abuse program and then we expanded that in ter mental health but you might just kind of give us the brief summary of what those that role is currently what it has been and to Mr. Greenway's point, how how do we, you know, help kids or, you know, identify them currently? >> Sure. So, in

095the past, we had a student assistance program and they were primarily um the counselors were focused on uh student students that were identified that had substance uh issues. There was a two-day program for students um that had policy violations where they attended sessions. Uh Nancy Hans was a part of that as well. um students and their parents and they received psycho education related to um substance use uh prevention resources things like that. Um so they attended a number of sessions and they were monitored on a regular basis um through that program. Then we switched over to life counseling um and that had more of a mental health focus. So we you know our clinicians there are focused on mental health issues as well as substance issues. Um however the difference is with the student assistance

096program um students were seen by counselors because they were identified through policy violations or court violations that came to the attention of the school. Whereas with our life counseling program, it would require a um student to either self-reer that they're struggling with a particular issue or through our um policy violations where they get caught and they can also have some either individual time with the counselor or see an outside counselor for intervention. >> And we wouldn't quit that, right? We wouldn't quit. So that would still be ongoing, right? This is not a >> this is just an additional opportunity um if you choose to do so through the athletic piece to identify kids and an opportunity to provide that therapeutic intervention. >> Thank you. >> Well, Tim, I'm I'm not opposed to to it and

097I have no doubt that our staff would do a wonderful job at helping our kids get back on track. What concerns me is is are we going to be testing for these substances that they have so much access to? because I feel like that is probably being more abused now than the illegal substances. That's that's my fear is we're testing, but are we testing for the right things? >> Well, if we do the pilot program, we'll find out is what I would think. And again, or that we either tweak it or we get rid of it or but >> and I don't know. I mean, I don't know enough about this. And how do we tweak the test to be able to >> It would just probably come at a higher cost. Correct. >> It

098does come at a higher cost. You just tell the lab we want to test for this substance, this substance, and this substance. And it's it's usually an add-on unless it's in one of their pre-built panels. >> And we could work that in the RFP basically say what the cost is. I'm just guessing it. and and and I I would be suspicious that we could keep the cost under 90,000 because honestly if they're um getting positives um the standard uh medical followup is to do confirmatory tests which come with an additional cost to that which is usually hundreds of extra dollars for each one um and and takes time and and additional resources there. So, let let's call it 200,000. If it helps our kids, I'm okay with that. Um, again, a lot of money and

099I'm throwing out numbers I have no no idea about. But, you know, uh, for me, this is all about helping kids and students and not uh, you know, not looking into what's the motive here, what's the motive there, how's, you know, if Dr. Hughes thinks their group can can help in the counseling and and moving these kids forward. I [clears throat] think there's an opportunity to save some kids. Maybe I'm polyian and uh and just wrong about that. But the thought would be that we can we can help some kids and a couple hundred thou again a lot of money. Uh we're saying 93. Call it a couple hundred thousand. If it saves some kids, I'm okay with it. >> Dr. Could that vape free curriculum that you'd mentioned, could that be implemented into a

100health and PE class? >> Yeah, it's not already. >> So, I do have a question. >> It is one of the approved um in health and PE. Uh Kevin Burcham approves a number of different types of programs and allows his teachers to pick and choose um from that. It is one of the materials that's available. >> I'd love to see that be included in in the curriculum in in some class so that everybody's getting the top the topics included but they could choose which materials they use. Is that correct? >> That's correct. And then as far as education, we do currently provide education to students. So we do a specific vaping [clears throat] curriculum with our seventh graders and also with our ninth graders and tth graders. And then we also do a substance uh

101use curriculum that we share. you know, it's in large groups, so it's not in small groups, um, which I think would be more effective, but we do provide that substance um, education. >> So, that would be kind of my question is if we're talking about the money, which we always have to consider, um, would we not be better off maybe looking at some other options in terms of educating and spending the money to reach a broader population? Um, I think we all want to help our students. Um I'm just not sure that this is the best way to go. I mean I like I said I sat on that committee and I I had hundreds of questions. We went back and forth and one part you thought okay we we should do this and then

102you would ask another question think h this doesn't sound right. So it's not I don't think there's a right answer here. I think this is a very tough decision to make. I'm just thinking like on a broader scale could that money be used in a different way like like you pointed out the research article. Um is there a better way to reach these kids? Is there can we see what that might look like? I mean, can we see what trying a different avenue, a different program? What would that look like if we were going to put more money towards it? I would just like to see what some other options are before we just dive into this because I'm not sold on it. I haven't been sold on it from the beginning. Um, sitting through

103the committee made it more complicated. I think it just brought up more questions. So, I'm not ready to do this. And so I would like to see what other options we might have and what else could we do um that might have a a broader impact. That's my thought. >> And and la last thing on my mind, I I certainly appreciate that that viewpoint as well. And I think if we focus in on the stated goals and commitment of the committee, which is to create a program that seeks to foster safe and supportive environment where they thrive, help them make healthy choices and enhance their potential, and um create a program that's not disciplinary or punitive in nature. I think we can find ways to spend money to help identify and uh get kids that

104need help into treatment. And I think there's there's plenty of opportunities and and the current gold standard recommendation across the addiction medicine world is to use for early identification to use a model called aspert which is screening brief intervention and referral to treatment and screening does not involve any lab work. That is a questionnaire asking about patterns of substance use and exposure to identify people. Uh and then those individuals get referred for uh follow-up assessments and u treatment. >> Now is that them or the kids answering those questions in the affirmative? >> Correct. >> So if they don't answer those questions in the affirmative, they just go they just get missed. >> Correct. Yes. Yeah. So you you have to ask it in the the right fashion. It has to be in an environment where

105they feel supported and trusted in in providing their answers and that they're not going to be negatively punished for it and that they're going to get help. So there there does require upfront education on the purpose of that. >> And so if we if we don't do this, I apologize to the committee for the time they've spent, but I think it's well worthwhile to do the uh to at least do the uh pilot, but that's where we're at. >> Can we look into the questions that I was asking about >> other options? >> Yeah, just to see what that would look like. I mean, I think the goal still is obviously to help our students. I think we're all on that same page. I just want more information. I just want some other options. I

106want to see what that would look like. >> Um I mean, we don't have to decide this today. So, I want more information and I'm just wondering if you guys can maybe help with that. And then >> I think Sean and I can >> Okay, Jess. >> And then we can kind of go from there. >> And how hard would it be to get a price on some of these alternative substances we talked about? >> How much would It wouldn't be hard. I'd just call the same company I called last time. >> I need to know that because you can't discriminate and say, "Well, I'm going to test you on these different panels and somebody else has to be the same." So, >> right. So, it's going to be across the board. So, >> I

107just need to know. >> And that's ever changing though, too, right? So, how does that work? >> I'm I'm just I don't mean to cut you up. I'm just I don't know what >> drugs you you guys are knowing would be the ones that you want. >> Well, that's I think it would change though, right? It's going to >> Well, it would every I mean, yeah, obviously every year >> it's going to be a constant shift in what that would look like, I guess. But I guess we could get some idea of what it would call >> like the cratom or whatever you called it. >> Yeah, I'll reach out to you guys and say, "Hey, I like bring y'all see it a lot far as what the substances are, right? So just if y'all

108can give me like what they are, I can contact the companies and say, "Hey, if we did this standard panel, but we also wanted to add this, this, and this, what would it be for guest?" Sure. >> I can do that. And we can also explore other options. >> Okay. Any other >> I just like to add one thing if you don't mind. I mean, to your point about the committee doing work, I mean, I I appreciate you as a board being willing to, you know, have a committee to look into a topic. These are not easy problems, you know. >> So, it's okay to wrestle with ideas that are hard and to, you know, take time [clears throat] to actually hear their recommendation and the report. Uh, like that's very important. If we're going

109to ask a committee to do work, then let's hear their recommendation. So, I appreciate you at least being willing to do that and wrestle with it, right? Try to figure it out. >> Yeah, it's not easy. >> Any other questions or comments about this or anything else? >> All right. Meeting adjourned.