001good afternoon and welcome to the Orange County School Board's rule development workshop which has been scheduled today, Thursday, November 6, 2025. The rule development workshop has been scheduled for the purpose of discussing resoning fall 2025. During this rule development workshop, the school board welcomes public comment on the proposed changes, but I don't believe we have any public speakers. general counsel, right? let me do a quick roll call. member Salamanca. Good evening. Member Ferrant, good evening. Member Douglas, good evening. Member Vanos, I'm here. Member Gallo, good evening. Member Felder, good evening. and the chair is not here yet, but she probably should will be soon. as a reminder, board members will not be engaging in outside electronic or digital communication during the meeting so that we can focus on the matters immediately before us. to my
002fellow board members and district staff, when speaking, please make sure that your microphone is turned on and you speak directly into it so that our YouTube and Orange TV viewers can hear you clearly. and thank you so much for participating in today's meeting. We're going to start with a moment of silence and then the pledge of allegiance. And now for the pledge. I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands. One nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. Okay, Dr. Vasquez. thank you, Madam Vice Chair. this afternoon our team is coming to you to discuss some of the reasonzonings feedback that we received as a result of community in input. and so I am going to turn it over to Stacy
003Neil. Good afternoon, good evening. We're here to discuss or update everyone on the fall resoning. first I would like to introduce staff Ranatada Parab and Thomas Moore. So, we're here for fall 2025 resoning. The timeline is up on the board. We held our community meeting October 8th. We had our work session on October 21st. and we're here for the school board rule development workshop. We our next meeting will be December 9th which will be the public hearing. Just a recap of the resoning process. Schoolboard policy JC outlines the resoning process. We commence with meeting with the superintendent. A timeline is developed. We meet with principles, executive leaders, and school board members. The research and data is collected. And then we hold our community meeting or meetings. We're at the rule development and the next will
004be the public hearing. We keep all information in a resoning notebook. Refresher on the resoning types. We have what's called a technical resoning and that is generally uninhabited property and it involves no students or has no students involved. We also have what's called a targeted resoning and this affects a small area and there are a limited number of students that are usually involved. When we do relief schools, there's an opening of a new school and this usually involves a large area and a large number of students. Okay. the next two slides were added to this presentation based on the feedback we got from the board during the October 21st work session. So when when staff develops or modifies attendance zones, we consider the following key factors. beater patterns. So ideally every elementary school should feed
005into a single middle school and then into a single high school. However, due to varying school size and geographic constraints, that is not always feasible. That said, we make every effort to avoid isolating small portions of a zone and sending those students to a different school as they advance to the next level. in addition, demographic balance. We aim to avoid creating zones that intentionally segregate students by race, ethnicity, or socioeconomic status. we try to create zones that would minimize bus travel time while remaining safe and walkable for students. we strive to keep existing and planned neighborhoods within the same school zone to maintain community cohesion and zones should be designed so that the projected stu student enrollment aligns with the school capacity ensuring efficient use of resources. And finally, we avoid creating zones where students
006are cut off by interstates or require them to cross arterial roads. In addition, we use natural boundaries like lakes and streams whenever possible. Okay. So, right now, we've transitioned from permanent program capacity to fish capacity. And let me give a brief description of what those are. Permanent fish capacity, fish stands for Florida inventory of schoolh houses. And for the purposes of clarification, permanent fish is what we show in the upcoming data. This is just the capacity in the permanent brickandmortar building and does not include portables. So permanent fish is now shown on our enrollment summaries and on our control open enrollment data. We also now use it for planning purposes. Fish, however, is actually the comprehensive database that includes every room in all district-owned schools. The state oversees this data base and assigns student capacity
007based on the state requirements for educational facilities which is called SREF. This is a school-specific building code. Now as facilities change or evolve and SREF rules change, the state has that about power to make those sweeping adjustments to the capacity figures in fish. Okay. Now permanent program capacity is something we created. Okay. is an adjusted measure of school capacity that reflects the number of students that can be served at a facility based on the specific instructional programs offered. PPC is typically lower than the permanent fish capacity and allowing schools more flexibility on how they utilize CRA classroom space. so those are the two main differences between these capacities. Okay. resoning. Back to resoning on the website where families can find where to locate our current resonings. If you go to ocps.net under schools to school
008resonings on that resoning website, we have all the current resonings and works and all board approved resonings or most recent board approved resonings. below. We also offer the grandfather transfer for students who have been resoned by OCPS two or more times during a school level at the current address. For a student who has been resoneed from an established school to another established school and in this case, the student may remain at the existing school instead of being assigned to the reszone school. For student who will be in the fifth or eighth grade and will be resoneed to a new relief school, they qualify for a grandfather transfer. Transportation is not provided. Siblings shall be eligible to transfer with the student who is granted the grandfather transfer and the deadline to apply is April 30th, 2026.
009We offered community input. Families were able to provide input via survey links that you see here. We allow one input per household and they were in the next round or after tonight's rule development, the deadline to submit survey will be December 1st at 7:00 a.m. or by 7 a.m. We also allow for families to submit petitions. must include your name and address and received in the office of student enrollment by 700 a.m. December 1st. Once again, one input per household. We also allow you to email at school reasonzoning ocps.net. Once again, one input per household. We will be presenting three targeted school resoning proposals. Each proposal is supported by detailed maps and demographic data to help illustrate the potential impact on students, families, and schools. I'll walk you through each scenario, beginning with the resoning
010between Carver Middle School and Chain of Lakes Middle School. Let's start by reviewing the map to orient you with the current and proposed zones. Green lines indicate current middle school boundaries. The hashed section marks the targeted area to be reszoned. Purple represents the proposed zone for Chain of Lakes Middle School and green for Carver Middle School. Option one proposes reszoning nine middle school students from Chain of Lakes Middle School to Carver Middle School. The primary benefit is a significant reduction in travel distance from approximately 6 miles to just.3. Here is a zoomed in view of the area adjacent to Carver Middle School. The next slide represents demographic overview of the resoning. The first column shows the name of the school involved in the resoning with the school's Florida inventory of school houses capacity. This figure
011is maintained by district staff in the Florida Inventory of School Houses, a comprehensive database that includes every room in all district owned schools. Carver Middle School's fish capacity is 1,240 students and Chain of Lakes is 1,141. The next column displays student enrollment captured on October 15th, 2024 with a percentage breakdown for race and ethnicity, white, black, and other, and non-Hispanic and Hispanic. For Carver, the enrolled 640 enrollment, 10% white, 89% black, 1% other, 88% non-Hispanic, and 12% Hispanic. For Chain of Lakes, 956 enrollment, 50% white, 45% black, 5% other, 59% non-Hispanic, and 41% Hispanic. The third column shows enrollment on October 1, 2025. Carver Middle School has 541 and Chain of Lakes Middle School 830. The fourth column displays current number of students residing in each zone. There are 937 students in Carver zone and
0121,616 in Chain of Lakes Middle School zone. The next column shows how many students will be residing in each zone if this resoning takes place. There will be 946 students with 11% white, 87% black, and 2% other, 87% non-Hispanic, and 13% Hispanic. Projected number of students attending Carver in 2026 will be between 575 and 595 students. For Chain of Lakes, the numbers are as follow. 1,607 students with 60% white, 32% black, and 88% that's 8% other, and 56% non-Hispanic and 44% Hispanic. There are between 840 to 860 students from earlier projections to attend chain of lakes in August 2026 if this resoning takes place. The next column is farms free and reduced meals and the current current percentage for carver is 76% and proposed is also 76 for chain of lakes 37% current and proposed.
013E ES is exceptional student education and is 15% current for sorry and proposed for Carver and 7% for chain of lakes. ELLL is English language learners and that is 9% current and proposed for Carver and 21% for Chain of Lakes. I'll give you a moment to review the numbers. Option two expands the resoning area to include 23 additional OCPS students. The goal is to align the feeder pattern so that all students from Alleston Elementary School are zoned to attend Carver Middle School. Like option one, this area is geographically closer to Carver Middle School, which will which will result in a shorter bus route while still maintaining transportation services. Here is a zoomed in view of the area. A demographic breakdown for option two is also available for your review. Please take a moment to review
014the numbers. It is superintendent staff recommendation for option two. We have received input from two families. Option one, two opposed. Option two, one in support and one opposed. Dr. Vasquez. thank you Stacy. members of the board, we are open to answer any questions or take any comments that you might have. we will need consensus at the end of your discussion to be able to move forward with either our recommended option option one or not moving. I'm sorry. Right. Our recommendation is two, but if you're not in favor of two, you have the right to go with option one. Thank you, Superintendent Member Gallow. Thank you, Madam Chair. I have a question about the fish capacity and I know and the permanent program capacity. I know that we discussed this at the work session as well,
015but what we report to the state is the fish capacity and that's what they go off when or the schools of hopes will go off when they look to colllocate into our campuses. Is that correct? So when we report the fish capacity because it doesn't we need smaller class size obviously as you state for the permanent program capacity and I know we need we need rooms for our ESSE students and we're bound we only usually have a small number of those students in the room so that's not accurately reflected in the fish capacity nor are our adult students that are attending our career and technical colleges. So when we report the fish, do we notate that? Do we do we make them aware so that the numbers are accurate with the state? So all right,
016so I think you're let's address the two different things. Yes, the ESC. All right, let me turn this. Hello. Is it working? Okay, here we go. Yeah. all right. So the ESC we are there we have been transitioning so where the ESC is reflected in fish there's a few left I a few there's one Jessma is working with the state on getting those remaining classrooms coded as ESE classrooms. There's a couple pieces of that. there SREF is a rule book basically on how many ESE classrooms you can have for every school. All right. So the ones that she can over the top just say okay we can we can change these now she's been given the okay to move forward with those. But there's some that don't follow the the rules in SREF and they
017need a special exception. So, for example, the rules read something like you can put an ESSE room for every 500 student stations at an elementary school. Okay? Something like that. So, if they exceed that, it it doesn't follow that rule. So, they have to do something called a plant survey exception. and that little piece that is something that's going to take a little bit longer, but we're not too far from getting to where all of those ESSE rooms are going to be eventually reflected in in fish. as far as I know, we when you look at the whole big picture and you have the center center schools in in there and the center schools have adult population when they when the state sends that back and saying, "Oh, you're you're 75% of utilization for the
018whole district or whatever that number is and it includes those things." We do usually do Rory's group usually does some kind of rebuttal and says these are those these are what you're missing from your analysis. And so, but on the school by school, we don't, you know, we don't really work with those those centers when we're when we're doing these types of attendance changes. We do have a mechanism to where we can, like you said, offering a rebuttal to what those classrooms are being used for. I know. And the reason I'm asking and I appreciate you putting in for the public what the difference is between fish and permanent program capacity because I know a lot of other districts are having an issue with these with how it's calculated. and I know that there's subdists
019that are working on legislation for the SRF to kind of clean some of that up. And I don't believe we have it on our platform. So that's why I was asking the questions. I'm internally thinking is that something that maybe as a board we need to look at and maybe be a part of advocating for that change in SRF so that we wouldn't have to constantly use staff time for the rebuttals on those type of of programs. Thank you. That's a great point. Additionally, I do want to make sure the board and the public is aware whenever we receive an application for collocation, we also have x number of days to provide a rebuttal. whether it's to indicate that the data they have is inaccurate or whether the district has plans to do a resoning
020that's going to put more seats into the school. So that is also part of that collocation process. Thank you. Okay. Thank you. Member Douglas. Thank you so much for your presentation. I have just one question. I'm confused about the community response. can you please elaborate on this one? Two. What what does that what what is this? What does that represent? so what that represents, we notify the families of the resoning. Okay. We give them the timeline that you've received and it goes out email and I think it's parent talk now. but they're notified. They're given an opportunity to respond and we only have received two responses. I'm concerned about I'm just telling you I'm just really concerned especially in that area after we make a decision I know they will come like how come this
021happened and everything I can we extend this and maybe reach out a little bit more and show them the importance of that decision that we're going about to make. Stacy let me let me respond. so it is not atypical. It's not unusual for us to at sometimes we receive no feedback. so this is not out of the ordinary. It's been published. The school has also helped to communicate that. And so we have not I would say in the last five years or so had a situation where we did the resoning had little to no feedback and then had the families come back in in up in arms. That typically happens during the process. we had some actually in your area two years ago maybe three it was in your area and they were here they
022were not happy. but we can share with you the various communications outside of what we did and what the school did. so that families were aware. sometimes their lack of feedback is that you know they're fine and there's not there's not a large number that are impacted. That's it for me. Thank you, member Banos. Thank you, Madam Chair. I just had one question and it was also relating to the permanent and fish capacity or the yeah permanent program capacity and fish capacity because on that slide it says that the PPC helped to meet the class size amendment requirements. So my question is was the fish amended when the class size amendment was passed? Yes, there was so the class size amendment happened in around 2003 and in 2004 the they changed fish they used to
023use a threshold or they used to use solely based on square footage. they would assign student stations. Then they changed it to a threshold that would apply the 18, 22, and 25. The problem is even with that change they they left the utilization for the elementary schools at 100%. That means you're going to fill up that elementary school classroom 100% of the time with a with 18 students or 22 stu or 22 students depending on the whether it's primary or not. And as we know that doesn't happen. Students don't come in in in packets of 18 and 22. And so we made an adjustment called a utilization adjustment that took into account those spaces that are created because you those student you have to break down those classrooms. Now what has happened between now and
024or then and now is that they've lightened up how they implement the class size reduction amendment. They no longer take every single classroom and say you have to break your classrooms down and so you can so you can meet that. They allow for an average by grade level grouping. And by allowing that flexibility, we don't necessarily need to be as stringent with a utilization rate like as we have in the past. So now we are going towards the other one just because that's how the funding mechanism and all those other reasons. were using the state number. Okay. So, it sounds like the fish capacity put forth by the state didn't really accurately reflect the reality of what the constitutional amendment passed by the people was meant to do. Correct. Got it. Thank you. That concludes
025comments. Do we and this is this is in member Douglas's district. Are you Oh, I'm so sorry. Member Felder's district. Okay. Thank you. I'm sorry. We talked about it. because it was like a matter of people on the streets right by somebody cross the street or the next street in terms of the what did you call it being transferred. The only thing that I my concern was that the parents would you have some clarity with the parents you know that if it's only six kids is that what went something like that six kids the last time we talked nine well it's a total of 30 30 okay I just wanted to make sure that those 30 that were going to be transferred that they that the parents were going to have some clarity about that
026right yes ma'am No. Okay. Well, I mean, I talked to them when we they met with me. Okay. I don't have a problem with it. Okay. So, the recommendation is option two. Yeah. Yes. Is anyone uncomfortable at this time for Okay. Thank you. All right. Dr. Vasquez. Thank you. we are now ready for the next resoning. Our second targeted resoning involves AOEI Middle School and Robinswood Middle School. This proposal focuses on realigning feeder patterns to create a more consistent educational pathway for students zone for Citrus Elementary School. The targeted area is currently zoned for Citrus Elementary, Robinswood Middle School, and Akoi High School. If approved, the entire Citrus Elementary School zone will feed into Akoi Middle School and Akoi High School, streamlining the feeder pattern. This change will benefit 48 middle school students. Let's review
027the map. Green lines once again represent current middle school boundaries. The hashed section marks the targeted area to be reszoned. Purple indicates the proposed zone for Okoi Middle School and green for Robinswood Middle School. Here is a zoomedin view of the area. The next slide represents demographic overview of the resoning. Please take a moment to review the data and consider the potential benefits of this alignment. We have received input from one family in support of this resoning. Dr. Vasquez. All right. Any questions, comments from board members? I know again as we talked about it, the only it was only one family member that made a comment about it. Yes. Okay. Well, looking at what I this option I like because it gives them both like about a thousand students, right? So, I like that. Gives
028Robinswood a little bit more. Chain Lakes is not overcrowded. So, they got about a thousand and something. So, I'm good with that. Right. It doesn't change this one. I said I mean I said Robinswood. I'm sorry. Robinswood and Okoy Middle. Yeah, Robinswood and Okoy Middle. I'm sorry. Yeah. All right. Any any board members have concerns with that moving forward? All right. Thank you, Dr. Vasquez. now, let's take a look at the Cypress Creek. Okay. So, sorry. Back to you, Dr. B. Now, let's take a look at the Cypress Creek and Lake Nona High School targeted resoning. Our last resoning for today involves Cypress Creek and High School and Lake Nona High School. This proposal aims to realign the feeder pattern for middle and high school students currently zoned for Luminary Middle School and Cypress Creek
029High School. If approved, this change will fully align the Luminary Middle School zone with Lake Nona High School. There are currently 136 high school students residing in the targeted area. Let's review the map. Blue lines represent current high school boundaries. The hashed section marks the targeted area for resoning. Purple indicates the proposed zone for Cypress Creek High School and green for the Lake Nona High School. Here is a zoomed-in view of the area. The next slide represents demographic overview of the resoning. Please take a moment to review the data and consider how this proposal supports a more unified and efficient feeder pattern for students in the Luminary Middle School zone. Currently, we received input from 18 families, 17 supporting and one opposing. Dr. Vasquez, comments. All right. Do we I'm sorry. Member Fant, you're recognized.
030Okay. Thank you. this is this is I think a great plan moving forward. I really love how we are trying to streamline the feeder patterns which will really help kids stay together longer. So excited to see that there's been a lot of support. It is true that we don't always get as many you know feedback from the community response but when we are sending those out it's really just to that targeted area. But we're not sending to the entire school of Cyers Creek or the entire school of Lake Nona. Correct. We do not always send out to the entire school to get the whole school, you know, that may not be affected by the reasonzoning, which makes a lot more sense than why the support oppose the community response is not always as you know,
031vibrant as we're hoping. I'd love to see the 18 responses for this one. but with our others, I can see why we don't always get as many. If it's only maybe targeting 20, 30, 40 kids, you're going to get a less of a response. But, excited for this and, I definitely support it. So, thank you. All right. Any concerns? Move that forward. That's it, right? All right. Anything else? I do have one thing before we adjourn that I'd like to propose that we do a work session on. It has to do with the book review process. Right now, as it stands, the only books that we're reviewing are the ones that are brought to by members of the public that have concerns. And I'm sorry, we're having a hard time hearing you. Okay. I was
032going to say it's on, but I don't hear myself either. I said I would like to hold a work session on our book what's the word for challenge process because I think it makes well it makes sense to me that if there is a concern by either Allison Kibby for example or the superintendent that there ought to be a way that they can bring a challenge forward if you will or have the authority to make that decision or at least bring that to the board rather than having a book that perhaps the superintendent or Miss Kibby is concerned about and there being no method as I understand the policy of of removing that book. I just I feel uncomfortable that we have a superintendent that doesn't have the authority that a parent or a member
033of the community. So, unless there's objection, I'd like to schedule it for at least a conversation. Okay. Okay. All right. Superintendent and I'll work on that. Thank you. Anything else before we adjourn? Member Gallo. Thank you, Madam Chair. So, just two things quickly. the first one is, and I've spoken to, Dr. Vasquez about this already, but there is we are part of the Central Florida coalition currently that we're involved in that we have meetings and we go to the breakfast during the FSBA conference. There's also a custom of school districts that is based in South Florida that has small and large districts and I if it's the pleasure of the board, I would really like for us to join that coalition as well. We don't get a lot of input from the urban districts like
034Hillsbor and our coalition and I think Hillsboro is joining the one in South Florida and I just think that it would be a good way to collaborate with larger districts that are the size of ours. So I don't know if I need like board approval or consensus for us to to join that coalition as well. So, I strongly support that and I kind of I don't know, you said there's also some smaller school districts. I like Charlotte County is a part of it, Lee County and those, but then you got Broward, you got Miami Dade, Hillsboro is joining. Yeah, I think I think if you know I could weigh Palm Beach County there, all the largest districts because the needs are different. not necessarily more, they're just different. So, anyway, I would strongly support it.
035I think should, Mr. Pomerini, is this something that we should put on the board's agenda just to bring it forward so that we can Okay, I would be more comfortable if we did that. Yes. And, member Salamanca, you wanted to speak to this or to something else? I have one more thing just Okay, go ahead. and then I don't know if it's the board pleasure, but there there is currently some legislation in Tallahassee about lowering the age for long guns and guns to 18. So, I received an email from a parent and a member of the Mom's Demand Action group if we would consider doing like a resolution or speaking in support of keeping the gun at the age of 21 considering that we do have students within our schools that are 18. and we
036already have open carry. And so the concern is that, you know, kids really, you have to be 21 to buy alcohol. You have to be, I mean, your frontal loes not fully developed and really should be 21. And in light of what's happened in Simol County recently, I'm devastated and concerned with children being able to get their hands on guns. And if we lower the age, they'll be able to get get them quicker. And as it stands right now, if you're a hunter, you're still allowed at 15 to go hunting with a gun. So, we're not trying to take anybody's rights away, but we don't currently have anything on our platform to really speak to this. So, I didn't know if it was something that the board would like to consider. I know in the
037past that we have sent stuff to our family about safe storage of guns, which I'm so appreciative of and thankful for, because I do believe that is impactful and made a difference. So, I just wanted to bring that up for discussion to see if if it's something we could even do and maybe Mr. Pomearini can speak to that or if that would even be the will of the board. let me respond to the second part. I Well, let me Mr. Pomerini, is there any reason you think that the board couldn't pass a resolution on this matter? Or it could certainly pass a resolution just for the information under 790.115. it regardless of whether somebody's 18 or not, it would be illegal for them to possess a weapon on a school campus. So, the law would
038still prevent them from doing that, but there is nothing that prevents the board from passing a resolution if that's its will. It would be more along the lines of like what we did with safe storage, just us saying we need we want our communities to be safe and we feel this is the safest way to do it. personally, I think a resolution on that might be more effective. and I think that we can word it in a way that isn't necessarily offensive, but just explaining kind of the rationale as well that if an 18-year-old has a gun at home, yes, they're not allowed to bring it on the campus. But it becomes much more difficult for us to monitor that when there's say a rumor and now you go out to the house. Does he
039have access to a gun? Yes, he I shouldn't say that. he or she has access to the gun, but they're not going to use the gun. I just I hear where you're coming from. I would be very comfortable with that. what we have done before on resolutions is work with communications. The superintendent and I draft the resolution, then it would come back to the board for approval. So you're seeing what the language is and at that time you can make a decision on whether you're comfortable with but at the same time if the majority of the board doesn't like the idea at all we want to save the time of not doing that. So if again if there are significant concerns we won't but I don't see that. So we'll go forward with drafting it
040and then bring it back to the board and thank you for bringing that. Thank you madam chair. Thank you. Okay. Now, member Salamanca, thank you, Chair. It was actually in response to your, suggestion on books. so I'm fine with it if the board is overwhelmingly in support of it, but we disproportionately spend so much time on books and we have the past year and I'm given how much other work sessions we have on scooters, schools of hope, enrollment, like those are the topics I really want to prioritize and what I would warn folks is that is going to open the can of worms once again for a lot of things and so I just want to be mindful of that. I personally would not be in support of opening up the topic for the time
041being until the school year begins again and we can talk about that, but that's just me. Thank you. Okay. member Vanos, just in in response to to both of these comments on the book review policy, what what is this? I guess the concern was the superintendent didn't have the ability to challenge a book. So I guess I just want some clarity on what is the ability what is the current ability of the superintendent with respect to a book that or or a book that she has a concern about like what is the current Yeah. And I'm I'm glad you asked that cuz I just I find the policy a little odd but then I was here and approved it. So Mr. Pomearini maybe I misunderstand what how the policy reads. So there is the one
042provision in the statute or in the policy that talks about and this is policy JL subsection 2B. It says challenged materials may shall not be removed immediately. Such material shall be available for student use pending a final decision. Notwithstanding the foregoing, only the superintendent or designate may temporarily remove a challenge material during the pendency of a request for reconsideration if the superintendent or designate believes it will be disruptive to the student learning environment if the challenged material were to remain available or if the superintendent or designate determines the material contains pornography or materials that is harmful to minor/obcs. So what that policy speaks to is if the book is challenged then the superintendent can make a determination to remove it during the pendency of the challenge. It will still go through the challenge process. There
043is no mechanism as I read as I read the policy. if the superintendent hasn't a book that's brought to her attention that talks that she believes would not be appropriately on our shelves for her to independently remove it just on her own. Now we have had situations where the state has said these books are pornographic harmful to minors and they shall be you know removed and in that case the superintendent has done so to ensure that we remain in compliance with the state's mandates on it. But if it's not a state if it's not a book that the state department of education has told us is inappropriate for having on our shelves under the various ways that books can be removed under state law. There's no mechanism for the superintendent to independently remove a book.
044And member Vanos, it I I think I mentioned this probably more than you all want to hear, but when my son was in middle school and the assignment was to check out a book on from the band bookshelf. And so when he brought it home and mentioned it, it was the first time I knew that he ever brought a book home from the library. but it really caught my attention because I was like, "Oh, this will be interesting. I'll read it." I was thinking it was going to be, I don't know, like a classic piece of, you know, material. I But when I read it, it was a book about it. It's fictional, but about a kid who he's swimming. Somehow these other kids take his trunks off. He's out there in the water naked
045and they won't give him his clothes back. So, he waits until it's dark and he comes out and he's, you know, the these same kids are bullying him. And that was one example. So, he decides to get even and he hunts each one of them down and tortures and kills them one by one. Okay. And not only does he do that, but I'm trying to remember, it was right after, what was it? It was right after one of It was like our first mass shooting at at one of our schools and Coline. Yeah. Yeah. And literally it was a month or so after that. And then he also talks about he thought it would be so difficult. He didn't know. I don't know how much I want to go into because I'd worry about people
046getting the same concern that I had that he I'll explain you were concerned about it, but I'm very concerned about the wrong student reading that and getting a very different idea in his mind about how that could play out at the end of the book, if you get to the very end, it's all like he tra this guy travels back and forth in time and you realize it's like, you know, it's not true. It's fictional anyway, but it just troubled me enormously in especially in light of the time we were in. So, I went to see the principal and thought it was going to be a simple matter of showing him the book and he so he checked with the media specialist and he called me back and said, "No, the book's going to stay
047on the shelf." And I was like, "have you read that?" And he said, "Yeah, but the media specialist said the book's going to stay on the shelf." And I was just perplexed. It seemed really strange. And to be honest with you, I was in office and he said, you know, if you want to, you can fill out a form and try to get the book banned. And I was like thinking like I know some parents are thinking that why is it my responsibility to be like the book banner in the community? Isn't it the school's responsibility to make sure that we don't have stuff in our libraries that might promote a child to kill somebody when this just happens. So I just I was just utterly perplexed and so I went to see the superintendent.
048Well, first I went to see my schoolboard member Susan Arin. Asked her, would you read these two paragraphs? It'll take you all of five minutes. She came out of the room holding the book, walked into the superintendent's office, slammed it down on his desk, and was like, "Why is this in the library?" But he didn't have the authority either. So, he ended up after reading those two chapters, he ended up calling the principal and said, "Here's what I would do if I was you. I would check it out. I'd put it in my desk. I would leave it there for a long time and forget what happened and lose it." Okay. So, it, you know, for me it was real. It was a real situation. It was a dangerous situation. And when I realized that
049no matter how much the superintendent, super school board member, no matter how much they all agreed it was dangerous, the media specialist had more power and authority than they did. And so I did not realize when we adopted this policy that would take away the authority. It I just didn't read it that way that the superintendent or Miss Kibby could not say, you know what, this isn't okay. They couldn't even go through the challenge process. So that's why I wanted to bring it up. and we can discuss it as ad nauseium and I know member Salamanca won't appreciate that. I could bring some language forward and it would be like short and sweet. We're okay or we're not okay or if the majority of the board just feels like what we have is what we
050should have, then this is what we'll have. I'll just continue to strongly disagree that much authority should be placed in a single media specialist in principle. So, I I understand I understand what you're saying. I mean, I'm I think I have questions about the policy from a different angle than you do. So, but I can also see member Salamanca's point and I'm I'm trying to weigh the pros and cons of having the superintendent as the person who, is having to challenge books. so I don't know if that's Yeah. So, that's what I'm weighing in my brain, but I'll let everybody else speak. I see others have keyed in. Superintendent, did you want to respond? I I just want to clarify that number one, I do not want to be the individual that challenges the books.
051We had that conversation. I want to clarify the concern that I had was the state says these books need to come off your shelf. And our policy does not allow me directly to say to remove them. And so in speaking with general counsel, he explained that the you know DOE has the authority to give direction and so even though it's not specifically in our policy, we can still do it. So that was that was a concern. my interpretation is if that if we found a book, if I found a book that I thought should be challenged, I was able to challenge the same way a board member could by filling out the form if I'm mistaken about that. No, you're a resident of the county, so you could fill out a form if you wanted
052to. Yes. So, but I understand where the chair is coming from, but I want it to be clear that I do not want the responsibility of being the the challenger. I I it really has to do with there's a book that's been, you know, removed. The state says this has to come off your shelf. Our policy doesn't directly account for that. Member Vanos, any follow-up question on that? Okay. Member Bird, Vice Chair Bird. but this is this is where my head is though, general counsel, is that the Department of Ed has the authority to direct her. She's the CEO of the school district. How does she not have the authority to give direction to any employee in the school district? I mean, in all honesty, she has that authority. I don't I don't understand why
053we're why that would even have anything to do necessarily with this is about challenged material. But if we're talking about her overall authority over employees within the district, she has that authority. She should be able to direct an employee to do anything. I'm quite honest. Oh, no, no. Understand there's there's many complex facets that come in here, right? I don't know if she's taken the media center training, right? And so, anybody who's supposed to allow a book onto a shelf should have or to take a book off the shelf should have taken the media center training, right? And so, there's that provision of it. you know, the media specialists at each one of these schools is statutoily empowered after they take the training to pick books at the school and they have to ensure that
054those books that they pick for inclusion in the school library and by the way school library includes all the classrooms as well. So any book that's made available in the classroom meets the standards of the training that's been put out by the state. So I understand that generally she's the head of the school district. She's the chief executive officer and she directs the day-to-day operations of all the employees and she can give directions to employees. I there is no doubt about that. But books is a little bit it's a gray area because of the training requirements in my view. So you know if she hasn't taken the training and I don't know if you have or not. We've actually have many conversations, but that's never one that we've actually had. if she hasn't taken that
055training, you know, what would be the basis for her to say it either comports with the training or it doesn't, right? I mean, she's obviously very intelligent and knows generally what she needs to be done in a classroom because she's been a teacher, a principal, etc., etc., but that training component threw a wrinkle in for me, right? And so where I am comfortable is when the state board of education says a book is violates the statute, it's pornographic, it's obscene, it's harmful to minors, it should not be in any library. She does have the authority because DOE does have the supervisory authority to say, hey, that book needs to come off and then we have to comply with that under state law. That's where I'm comfortable. But as for just her, you know, hey, getting
056a book brought to her attention and saying that book needs to be pulled off, that's not a directly addressed in the policy as we have it right now. Got it. okay. And from what I'm just looking at the policy briefly, it looks like it's a matter of just a couple of words, probably adding in if we needed to do that. But I also respect the superintendent's opinion of not wanting to I don't know again I again the last book that was just brought to be challenged had was in four middle schools was checked out one time ever in the history of having this book. So again we're having these conversations and we've got bigger fish to fry. So, I kind of agree with member Salamanca, but I don't know. I don't know if the super
057does the superintendent feel like you need that authority, but you just don't want the authority, but do you feel like this policy does need to be addressed? I do. And we talked about this when we did the policy that and I my recollection is that no one wanted one person to have that ability. So for example, we can talk about the recent book challenge which you know I have my opinions about that book and if it should be on the shelf or it shouldn't but I don't because there is so much controversy around books and what you know one person may say well that has some you know content that if I'm a biology teacher or you know a I would I would share that. Others would say, well, you can have other books that
058have the content without the pictures and you would be able to get that same information across. So, I do not personally want that responsibility because it is we will get into the same arguments that someone would say well the superintendent removed that book and I did go through the slides of the training but I still there's to in my opinion there is a lot of gray area when making that decision and that's why I believe it I believe the committee decision the board still if if there is a decision that is made by the district literacy council it can come to the board and the bo the board as a whole can make you know that decision and I think that's in the policy and I understand the chair's concern because if we have a
059book and we can't remove it but we can if it's if it's right we can take it off all of it's being challenged. my main concern was violating the policy as a state says you have these books that have that need to come off your shelf. And so that's where where I have my preference, but as always, I defer to what the board would, you know, want me to do. Okay. And in that case, I agree with you that the committee is probably the best place. I don't necessarily have any desire to bring this policy back. Okay. So, the last time the state gave that direction, this board had to give the superintendent that direct that approval. That's what we that Yeah, that's what we did when Yeah. Okay. I just want to be clear
060on that because I know what you're saying that she's the chief executive officer. She gets the direction from the state. She should have the authority. yeah, which was in all due respect to our general counsel was I think the direction that we got at the time was that super well I want I wanted the board okay a to be aware okay and to be able to you know weigh in again I feel very strongly that there's so much emotion around the book issue and I want to be perfectly transparent and I want the community to understand the why behind it and then if board members don't agree with it give you also the ability to voice that concern and then at the end it's the majority of the board. So that is why and I
061brought it to the board. Okay. I'm sorry. I my recollection is different than that. I'm I'm sure you're right because it's it was what you decided. I thought we were in a position where you didn't feel like you could do it without our approval, which is different than than going to the board because you felt it was appropriate to get our consent. Okay. Okay. All right. Member I'm lost track. Member Felder. Okay. Yeah. Member Felder. Actually, I wanted to thank you, Chair. when board member McGallo talked about oh my god the guns I just wanted to say that even though and I think attorney Pomearini said that whatever policies we put together has of course coincide with the state but I think it would be for lack of a better word good for the public
062and the community to see as a board that we do have concerns about the use of weapons in our schools. And we would as as much as we can within our power as a board to control that as as much as we possibly can because as she said if you're hunting you can get it what at 15 if you know if you're hunting no one takes anybody right but then also we're having you know more than not children teenagers high school students that are using guns and I just want to mention is on last evening with the Lyft and Harlem Kid Zone, we had a neurosurgeon who's going to work with us, who's going to partner with us. oh my god, he had a this a picture of the skull of a a teenager was
063shot with the gun and the bullet was lodged in the brain. And what he had to do, he had pictures of it. He had to take the skull out and do all that stuff, but he had to leave the bullet in because had he taken the bullet out, the child would have bled to death and died. So I said, I really would like for you to come talk to some of our schools. And I think if young people could see see what that looks like, you know, guns, you know, are dangerous and if they could see that. So that this young man, he's living and functioning, but he has a bullet in his head. he and it will not be removed at all. Can't be. And so I don't I think that the fact that
064board member Gallo talked about we needed to kind of come up even if it's through a work session with some kind of policy to deal with that so that we can show the community are we are in good we have good faith and knowing because there so many parents have come up and mothers against you know violence have come so they can know that we are as a board very concerned about the welfare of our of our children our students and that Again, Attorney Pomearini reminds us if there's a statute that comes out from the state, we have to comply. You know, if they change and pray that they don't, you know, if they change the law and is voted on, my god. Oh, I just hope that doesn't happen. But if they do that,
065we have to whatever policies that we make with that, it cannot go against the statute. But I'm glad she brought that up. And I wanted to say to those that are listening that you need to know that you we have good faith and wanting to make sure that our children are safe. That's what I wanted to say. All right. Thank you, Member Felder. Member Ferrant. Thank you, Madam Chair. I just wanted to clarify then with you with the superintendent with the book policy. Let's say you were to be out and about and someone comes up to you and says, "Have you heard about such and such a book? it has this explicit content. or maybe it's, you know, the whole thing is about suicide and it's all about su and how to commit suicide or
066something horrific in that sense. that's something that we really wouldn't want kids reading. do you have the authority then you hear about that, you look through it yourself and go, okay, wow, this needs to be reviewed by the committee or do you just say, you know, what what is it that you're saying is your authority? So, my understanding on the policy is that I could I can just like any board member here do a challenge. I would probably say to the individual, have you completed a book challenge? And go that route first. and then depending on why they're challenging it, it would either start at the school level or there it would come to the district literacy committee to be able to review it and then make a recommendation. U that's my understanding. Now, we
067get a letter from Commissioner Stacey that says, "These books have been reviewed and we have found them to have inappropriate content. They need to be removed." then what I have the authority to remove them. What I would do is as part of the next meeting, I would bring it to the board as part of my comments, which is what I believe we did last time. there wasn't a resolution and just say we've received notification these books are going to be removed and we'll note it on the website. Okay, wonderful. I appreciate that. I do think as a board something that you know the reason I think we're always coming back to this topic is because we have never set that standard of what is okay in the schools. Do we want to have books with
068multiple f-words in them or detailed sexual acts? Like, do we want murderous plots or, you know, suicide is okay? Those are types of things. And I understand maybe nobody wants to discuss that and whatnot. but this is why we just keep coming back to it because there are some pretty intense books out there. and then as we're seeing there, a lot of them are books that aren't being checked out, so why are they being purchased in the first place and we're using taxpayer money to purchase books that kids don't want? just it's sort of a whole we could be here for hours. which is why we have been here for hours, but I do believe that if we had some sort of standard, then we're not here. The media specialist knows exactly what's expected of
069them. If a book is found with something that we've already stated is not something that we're gonna the standard that we're not allowing in the schools, then it would be removed. but if we don't set that standard, we'll just always kind of come back to this topic. But right, thank you member for member Gallo. Thank you, Madam Chair. I I personally believe we do have a standard that's in place on what's allowed in our libraries, our media centers. I think that we hire media specialists who are experts in their job that can determine when they curate the books and they purchase books what is appropriate for their libraries. with that said, I have a question about I know when we first created this policy at the time, we knew that we would always have to
070come back to it. We knew that there would be some things that we would have to tweak. We knew when we passed the policy, I believe if we go back and review that we even said, you know, we will have to bring, you know, we'll have to review this policy. I agree with member Salamanca and member Bird that we spend way too much time on books for the amount of books that are being checked out. I do believe in transparency and I do believe as the superintendent did last time there was books she was getting questioned by the DOE. She brought it to the board. The board gave consensus boom done. The only thing that I would add to that is that in the future just in order to be transparent that on the agenda
071somewhere, we would let people know that we would be discussing it just so if they want to tune in or say something that they can just I'm always going to be about transparency with our community about letting them know what this board is doing so that they don't feel blindsided or feel like we're doing something in a way that they don't approve of or they don't think is appropriate. but I do remember having conversations about one of the issues with the policy was regarding the principal, our need to really change the policy as it re relates to the principal and the principal making that decision. because that doesn't make sense to me that a principal has a decision to to remove the book, but the superintendent doesn't have the decision to remove a book. And
072so, I don't know like I don't know if we need to review it because of the principal because that's the concern that I'm hearing about our policy the most of often is the principal and the burden that it p puts on the principal, but I will go either way with this board. I do feel like we have talked about books to death. and they aren't being checked out. And so I would prefer to to talk about other things that are really impacting our school and our and our students academics and our student outcomes. But if the board feels like there's things in that in that policy that we do need to to kind of clear up as discussed prior, then I'm happy to have that discussion. Thank you. All right. member Vanos. Thank you, Madam
073Chair. just to first comment on this. I think to close this out, I think I'm going to land on the side of leaving the policy as is. my concern has always been about the authority of the board of education and as I've said in public meetings before, obviously I disagree with it, but but as long as I know that the superintendent is going to bring those books to the board just to let us know what is what is there, I'm I'm okay keeping the policy as is. the only other question I want to ask, and this is back to the the long guns, was I support the resolution. Is this something that we should put on our legislative platform? Just a question. Chair, may I please? definitely. I think a resolution would suffice because I
074don't as a board I don't recall a time that we ever had anything that on our platform that was really outside of our purview education wise and I think that a resolution would be more appropriate. That's my opinion. yeah and I one of the reasons I thought a resolution also I think it'll get more attention Yeah. Yeah. And unfortunately, when we're going doortodoor with our legislators, often times we're not getting in the right doors. The doors we're getting in are good people and they agree with us. They're just not not on the right side literally of the issue. So, I think I do think a resolution is a good way to go. okay. I'm the last speaker up. I we've been at this for I'm sure over a half an hour. I think we had
075our work session and I'm glad that we all discussed that we don't want to waste any more time on this. I obviously to just to echo the sentiment that the principles have an authority that Allison doesn't have and the superintendent doesn't have. Strikes me as back to you, John. Yeah, actually I was looking at the statute and the statute specifically has a section on school principles. School principles are responsible for overseeing compliance with school district procedures for selecting school library media center. materials at the school to which they are assigned and notifying parents the process for objecting to the use of specific materials. So statutoily they are charged like the media specialist for ensuring what goes in the library. Also with respect to the school principal just so we all know this but that policy
076is long and has many different facets to it. If a challenge is the book is pornographic or the book is harmful to minors or it contains sexual conduct, they bypass that first step at the school literacy council and they go directly to the district literacy council for a decision districtwide. So what the principal really has to decide is challenges based upon inappropriate for the age and grade and maturity level of the student but not the sexual categories. The sexual categories go directly to district literacy council. Okay. All right. Thank you. member Vanos, we you're Okay. All right. Any further business to come before the board? Seeing none, we're now adjourned. Thank you. Hey, hey, hey. Heat. Heat. Hey,