OCPS | 2022-07-12 School Board Work Session

001good morning everyone and welcome to the school board's work session which has been scheduled for today for the purpose of discussing the following school board policies i j instructional materials ijl library material selection and adoption kec challenge materials policy and ibm teaching about controversial issues the public will not have an opportunity to participate in today's work session to provide public comment because this is not a regularly scheduled school board meeting no action will be taken and there'll be no pre-agenda public comment period thank you so much for joining us we are going to begin this meeting with a moment of silence and the pledge of allegiance and i'll invite you to join me if you wish and now for the of the pledge states of america and to the republic for which it stands one

002nation under god indivisible with liberty and justice for all all right i want to remind the public anybody who might be tuned in that board members will not be monitoring their computers so they won't be looking for emails or any social media communication so if you're trying to reach us best time to do that is either before or after meetings and i want to remind anybody who is speaking and that would be our staff today to speak directly into your microphone so that we can hear you and our viewers on orangetv or youtube can hear you as well and now i will turn to dr jenkins thank you madam chair this is a work session to have our first joint discussion in public discussion regarding policy i j i j l k e c and

003i m b because so many things are still unclarified by the department of education i don't assume that this will be our only work session but it is certainly our first by the time we get to the end of our discussion there are just a few things that we will have to contemplate as we get closer to the start of school and media specialists and others needing to deal with some questions we'll raise those at the end but as a beginning i know individual discussions have been held with board members we'd like to hear more discussion from you and interaction as we try to come to some consensus again my prediction is it won't be the only work session to get all of these matters discussed thoroughly as we suspect as soon as we have

004some conclusion there might be further direction from the state i find it also a bit concerning that the state as essentially department of education has essentially said the training for our media specialists and others who would need to review instructional materials will take place in january they've always said january school starts in august and so we just have some some things that are in flux that are a bit of a concern to us we'll have more discussion around that with that wonderful introduction i will hand it over to rob bixler to get us started good morning chair jacobs board members and superintendent jenkins today's work session again will be on policies i j i j l i m b and k e c we will just for the agenda we'll be talking about the timeline

005the summary of actions the proposed revisions next steps and then questions and discussions with the tentative schedule dr jenkins asked that cabinet members provide us feedback on the policies and the presentation by yesterday today obviously july 12th is the work session we have the rule development workshop to be determined along with board approval to be determined in the effective eight will the effective date would be upon approval today we'll be reviewing ijl which is instructional resources and materials ijl library materials selection and adoption imb which is teaching about controversial issues and kec chop the challenged materials policy and as we did in our one-on-ones with you we're going to go directly to the red line and we appreciate you allowing us to kind of pilot that method we really appreciated that it was great feedback

006for us and allison kibby will walk us through and as you have questions or comments we will take notes good morning i will begin with the ij instructional resources and materials policy so the purpose for bringing this to you today is that policy ij is being revised to include language from recently enacted laws and to clarify the process by which a parent or resident of the county can object to the board's adoption of instructional materials overall the revisions have been made to the existing policy language to include content formatting and terminology edits consistent with statutory language i'm just going to switch over all right so you should have all been provided with the redline copy of schoolwork policy ij one of the things that i wanted to note first is that we are proposing a

007new name for this policy instructional materials program selection and objections the policy is broken up into multiple sections and it starts with the allocation of instructional materials which essentially just states that we are equitably distributing our instructional materials among our schools and there were no changes made to this section the next section is about the selection of instructional materials which includes multiple subsections the changes made were to mirror language that was enacted as part of house bill and where you see comments we tried to make sure that the that we quoted directly from that bill so you'll see that throughout section one begins with the selection of instructional materials which focuses on how the district follows the state process for adopting instructional materials and what our duties and responsibilities include continuing on page two section

0082 includes the district adopted instructional materials process this is the process that we have written in our policy in the event that we would need to implement an off cycle adoption or an adoption not on the commissioner's schedule for adopting instructional materials i wanted to note one significant change if you look at item 2bi the selection of review committee members must now include one or more parents or legal guardians of a child enrolled in a district public school that is a significant change and that would be something that we would implement overall with any of our adoption processes continuing to the next section you'll see a lot of red lines here and these were absorbed in other areas of the policy overall to streamline the next section of the policy is section three evaluation of

009instructional materials state adopted and district adopted this states what the board is responsible for in terms of evaluating the instructional materials that we use and how we how we evaluate those against the standards and additional criteria as set forth in state statutes you will notice here that the materials on the following page must be free of pornography as in accordance with section 847.012 and 847.01001 of florida statutes could i jump in right there please madam chair just want to let you know we had in our individual meetings with school board members we had a lot of you had asked what the definition of pornography is and there isn't one so we have created one on our own that is as broad as we can possibly do but as narrow as we possibly could do and

010i don't know mr palmerini looks like he might be wanting to add to that statement can i interrupt before beforehand because on the subject of the definition there is a definition of child pornography and it seems to me that the logical definition of pornography should mirror the definition of child pornography except for taking out the fact that it would be a minor we look at that is that the direction that's that's that's what we looked at to start our definition yeah okay mr pomerani yeah so the definition of pornography is defined in the case law is there's not really one but the quote is they know it when they see it which becomes very very difficult to translate into language here but we did borrow the definition of the child pornography the one thing i

011would say is the united states supreme court's case law has said obscenity is not protected but pornography as a general rule is unless it involves minor so that really takes care of us so there's not a lot of clarity on those definitions from the supreme court so we tried to fashion it as best we could based upon the definitions that we saw in there we use child pornography as a baseline and so your definition is it's it says any instructional material containing pornography or otherwise prohibited by section 847.012 florida statutes may not be used or made available within any district school for purposes of this policy pornography is defined as any depiction written narrative or graphic of any person engaged in sexual conduct as that term is defined in section 847.001 subsection 16 florida statutes

012for purposes of this policy obscene shall have the same definition as that term is defined in section 847.001 subsection 10 of the florida statutes thank you're welcome pardon me do we have a question i remember gallo go do you in just a minute remember caster general did you have a question yeah where it says any person engaged in sexual conduct as that term is defined is that term defined do we have to go look that up or is that included paul marie mr pomerani it's not actually in the policy but i've got the statute pulled up it's sexual conduct is defined in that florida statute i could read it off for you here if you would care or not i think that's important to know that's pretty broad it is a broad definition mr pomerani

013sexual conduct means actual or simulated sexual intercourse deviate sexual intercourse sexual bestiality masturbation or sadomasochistic abuse actual lewd exhibition of the genitals actual physical contact with a person's unclothed or clothed genitals pubic area buttocks or if such person is a female breast with the intent to arouse or gratify the sexual desire of either party or any act or conduct which constitutes sexual battery or simulates the sexual battery is being or will be committed a mother's breastfeeding of her baby does not under any circumstances constitute sexual conduct remember gala thank you thank you mr palmer that i think that helped clarify my question my question was going to be that we have ap courses that have like a lot of classics and have we looked at this definition as it's applied to some of the required

014reading in our ap classes or dual enrollment classes to see if any of that could be now objectified or not allowed and therefore cause problems in our ap classes we are currently working with other districts to see how they're going to handle ap courses ib ace dual enrollment because those are well technically they're k12 they are high school courses so does this law apply to the heist the college courses because they're in high school so we're working with other districts surrounding us to see how they're going to monitor this as well and handle this so we'll come back to you with an answer on that one madam chair yes dr jenkins i would add to what mr bixler just shared just two notes one ap courses are voluntary and college board has already issued a

015statement that they will not be changing their curriculum based on any state legislation it would just be a matter of choice on whether or not individuals were interested in their children taking those classes a word ends up from those two opposing viewpoints remains to be seen but i think college board has been very clear that they are not going to adjust their national curriculum for any state that might have some restrictions and that it is a choice for our parents if they want their students to take those college-level courses we will continue to monitor so dr jenkins i would i would ask if you would reach out to the department of ed and find out if we can get a written clarification from them on how they stand on ap courses if they have material

016that violates our policy are they in some way exempt do you have an answer to that mr bill part of the part of this is you take those courses to get bright futures which is approved by the state so we're trying to find right exactly what you said you know you're you're the contradiction that's correct yes ma'am we'll try to get something in yeah try to get something in writing we'll try to get something in right yes well we will appreciate you trying thank you thank you and the second question i had for mr pomerini so when we talk about pornography does this also exclude pornography in library materials the answer is yes okay and i know we're on instructional now i just i do want to come back to the concerns that i know

017i had and several board members had about one book that was brought to our attention because what i saw in there was clearly by the definition of the state if you use the definition pornography that we're adopting although we don't know that those were children depicted in that book but it was clearly pornography and so we'll get to library materials and that process a little while later and we have the same definition in policy ijl we will the same definition okay yes okay great member covert i think you asked my question chair that it's critical that we get direction from the state okay because if we enact this in policy and we have those books then we're clearly in violation of statute and policy even though it's college board this is what's inside our district

018so you did ask the question and answered but that written direction is critical thank you and quickly actually when i think about it your school year is starting very soon so okay remember lopez so that means that thank you i'm not sure i'm just trying to think about so many things so that means that we have to avoid to teach our students any type of art piece or literature piece that are related let's say even in medieval ages we have poems that are related to this type of topic so that means that we're gonna take away a lot of pieces from from art from literature from i don't know i'm just asking and even biology because i don't know i need more more explanation about an examples concrete examples for example poetry paint you know

019our pieces i'm thinking about michelangelo that means that we cannot teach michelangelo anymore i don't know maybe dali i'm thinking about even ap literature and an art and i'm just having this question how are we gonna deal with that are we gonna get rid of those pieces when we're teaching and how it works i don't know who's gonna answer that question i'm sorry mr pickles dr jenkins so you pose critical questions all of which we cannot answer exactly at this point i'm looking at mr paul marini because the definition of pornography would not be something as beautiful as david the statute of david i don't believe would fall into that category but i'm not counting anything by my opinion mr paul marini so i in my reading of the statute i don't think it would

020cover things like that because if you look at the definition of sexual conduct it says with the intent to arouse or gratify the sexual desire of either party so i don't think just a depiction of a new male body or new female body in and of itself would meet that definition i don't think that it was meant to eliminate the teaching of the classics now this is going to be case by case you know michelangelo's david is one case but you know if there's literature you'd have to look at it specifically to see if it meets the definition but i don't think this was intended to keep the classics out of being taught okay thank you and i think it will be easier when the board has the language right in front of you because

021it well it does talk about the depiction of of the body it also talks about in relationship to sexual conduct so i'm not saying it's completely clear but it's a little clearer when reading it than it is just hearing it read to you once but one last question on this this language was already in the statute correct mr pomerani it's very hard to keep these straight and with all the changes that have been made but i believe the answer is yes the prohibition against pornography was already in the statute prior to the change that's what i thought and so was the definition of pornography before these changes so it's timely that we are visiting this right now the definition of child pornography not the distraction i am so sorry yeah i stand corrected there is

022no definition of pornography only child pornography thank you member cobert all right how does this relate to when we teach health and reproduction in certain grades i think what is it like fifth and eighth when we you know and with permission from parents teach that how how does that pertain to this well that's part of the required instruction we have to do we have to fill out a form every year and send that in that we're going to be teaching that so again those contradictions we'll have to work through those as well that's the staging but the statute clearly provides for that correct and it's not it's a good point because the statute carves that out and provides for that and we don't have that in this policy so perhaps we need to incorporate that

023mr pomerani you want to comment on that what rob said that's exactly right the statutes specifically require the teaching of that so the more specific statute controls over the more general statute and the more specific statute in this case requires us to teach human sexuality in those grades we might still just want to visit revisit i don't remember the exact sentence and where it is but there is a sentence in this action statutes that does carve out health related instruction but we might want to bring that to the state's attention yeah but now i'm saying if it's already included in theirs then maybe we want a sentence in here right so that somebody reading this doesn't have to know that there's a statute or a challenge we are we're required to teach that exactly we

024should spell it out okay thank you member felder thank you member coburn thank you chair this is indeed a very interesting conversation we're having up here i'm just thinking of that enthusiastic british literature teacher like myself who teaches john dunn or to escort his mistress off with that girdle you'll have to explain to your students the metaphor and so again i think we've been deliberating about trying to get the language back again but i don't want any british literature teacher to feel any kind of way about teaching beautiful literature the metaphor that you find in baroque literature is just phenomenal and you have to explain because some of the vocabulary that our writers use john dunn is very difficult and you're going to have to really explain and a lot of the poetry is promiscuous

025it is that's what it is so we do indeed i see ourselves almost in a conundrum as a as a board trying to follow policy and i'm i'm just hoping that whoever's making these policies that they have clearly looked at it academically what what we're doing and i'm not going to talk about if a teacher needs to show a film to try to elaborate on whatever the book that they're reading like schindler's list everybody's naked okay so amazon so i'm hoping board that we do mr palmerini that we do find some answers to give us clarity you know we need to have clarity because we start we start school august 10 and most of your teachers already have started their plan and setting up because they're coming in running you know we're second 30 out

026of the pandemic so they're ready to go and again your ap classes so i'm hoping that i don't want to have to experience a teacher being reprimanded or given a directive because they're trying to explain a piece of literature that somebody who hasn't read it thinks that it's pornography i just wanted to add that as a person of the arts that's very important to me thank you thank you madam chair yes dr jenkins so the general counsel and i were just thinking of other potential examples and so i'll just raise it not that i have the answer but i recall middle school reading assignment book called kate the kite runner oh yeah and there is we taught that male on male sexual assault actually depicted not not graphically described but certainly depicted in that particular

027book so i'm wondering mr paul marini if that would be something that typically might need to be removed based on the statute in your opinion i know we don't i know we haven't gotten a list in any specific direction but kite runner comes to mind because my son was a middle schooler when that assignment was given i'd read the book before and so i was very intrigued about how to describe it to him as he went through that would that be something that's an example that might be questionable the answers maybe i would feel more comfortable if we have that kind of material that we inform parents hey this is the book this is the type of material that's in it and you know maybe have an alternative assignment ready in that case there's just

028such uncertainty with how with this new legislation coming down and how it's going to be applied including with the existing provisions you know that i'm hesitant to say yes go ahead and have the book i just think if we if we're going to do something like that we probably should have parental permission for them to read it before they do it because i can't give you an answer that says the state wouldn't come in and say no that contains pornographic material in it be quite convenient if they gave us a list of what is prohibited but i don't know that's going to happen either thank you mr palmerini dr jenkins for clarification do you mean a list of books or a list of or a definition no prohibited books books yeah that would really be

029very helpful remember felder oh i'm sorry you already spoke member castro dental i mean yes that's okay thank you madam chair this discussion i'm i'm glad that the board is kind of really just discussing what falls under this category but it scares me when we're asking for a list of books from the department that are banned or not appropriate without our own kind of process for reviewing them i'd rather not invite them to ban books for us but i understand your caution i don't want to have mr palmerini read that statute again but if you could if you don't mind sending us that language you've already sent it okay thank you and i do think it would be helpful maybe there's some other thought more thought involved but helpful to include that definition in the

030policy so that those people who are looking up the policy or having to abide by it can navigate their way through this content if they're a teacher i think it'd be important for them to be fully aware of how to how to navigate because this is a tricky and vague area so just a thought thank you ma'am chair dr jenkins so two things come to mind first let me say kite runner was an excellent book i don't want anyone to think i'm critiquing that certainly wouldn't ask that it be put on any kind of banned list more importantly our teachers and our principals are concerned if they are going to come under scrutiny or under some kind of liability i think they want clear instruction some may not be as concerned and will assert their

031liberties as a teacher but i will tell you principals and teachers would like some clear answers and so i don't want a list of banned books i don't want to be on the verge of what feels like book burning i understand some districts have just done away with classroom libraries all together i think that's just going way out on an extreme but i do have to say on behalf of our teachers and principals they would like to know ahead of time rather than be the test case who has some kind of punitive response from the state and so as much as we can give them clear direction or the state is willing to give us clear direction just tell us the rules and then people can at least knowingly decide how they're going to proceed

032but we our teachers and our principals would like to have answers and the statutes seem to place some huge responsibility at the school level that's my point of having clear direction thank you i concur member bird thank you i am excuse me i completely agree with what the superintendent just said and i feel like this along with other statutes that have been thrown upon us have left so much ambiguity that as you said of staff members are so nervous and administrators are so nervous that i feel like it's our responsibility as a board to to not just keep saying we need to wait we need to wait because school is going to start in august and i feel like we owe it to them to give them that guidance like what you said and i

033realized that it's hard for us to do but when you look at what we have proposed here in our in our policy and you look at the definition in 847 zero zero one of the statute those definitions are pretty i mean they're they're very clear and laid out so maybe even if it's just giving those to teachers and as you said dr jenkins some are going to be wanting to you know use their liberties as a teacher because they believe passionately in what they teach and until they're told by the state until we are given guidelines that say no you can't they may want to do that but some are going to be more nervous and i think that we really do have to start the school year off with with clear guidance even if

034it's not given from the state we have to do it for our teachers because if we don't it's just it's just not fair to them as educators and you know that's our job as board members to create policy and i know we have to abide by law but in some cases there are there are policies we create that where there aren't laws that but they are things that boards have believed in and have done and i think until until we're given clear guidance i think we're going to have to take that leap and give some better direction to our staff so thank you member bird let me let me dr jengas did you want to respond to that i was that was for pam okay let me go to remember gould and then i'll come

035back remember gold thank you and thank you for this discussion about this very difficult process to implement because it is still muddy since the intent is parents ability to determine what their kids see is there i know there's a mechanism for that review and sign up but on books that may be determined age-appropriate that may have may not be as clear on which way they would go under the definition and the statute is there is there a mechanism for the teacher to have that classroom of parents sign off on the review of that book at that level at that time dr jenkins we can certainly include that in policy that might be the safest way to proceed if if books have questionable content and we're not clear on it that the parents have a choice

036to opt for something different that provision is certainly already available probably not used as often as we may be using it in the future well you know i think i think if if we look at what we hope the spirit of the law is to give parents that ability you know i as a parent wanted my children at an age appropriate level to understand the world that we live in at that point in time but i had friends who were not ready to necessarily share what i would share with my children so if we put that back in the parents hands and take it take that burden off of the teachers the principals the media specialists you know if there is a particular book that they think is very worth reviewing or art or you

037know all the things that my fellow board members listed that then that parent would have that option at any time i know it's a difficult thing to probably implement but maybe it's just made available with a curriculum review on canvas i don't know with the work that's coming up that week but anyway that's you all will figure that out thank you thank you member google the last comment i want to make on this i understand that teachers and principals are un obviously concerned and wanting some clarity i do want to point out that this board i think shares that same concern except that in many ways we have we lack the control but we own the responsibility and it's one of the most frustrating things i've seen about this governance model is to to have

038responsibility for something you have no control over so when it comes to instructional material there's a little bit more control when it comes to library material i will tell you i feel that with 205 libraries and any assurance that there's no pornography in our libraries went out the window for me when the gentleman showed up with genderqueer because while that book has value it has pornography so i just i think we regardless how we might personally feel about things i think we have to take very seriously what's in the law and when it's clear we need to abide by it and i think in this case it is so we'll move on thank you all right so the adoption of instructional materials section outlines who is responsible for facilitating the adoption of our instructional materials

039or textbooks and then also the process i want to note that there is a new requirement as part of the laws for public meetings of committees this is not this is new meetings of committees convened for the purpose of ranking eliminating or selecting instructional materials for recommendation to the board must be noticed and open to the public the process then continues as it always has with public access of recommended materials which we must provide 20 calendar days before the board hearing and public meeting and then followed by public notice of materials considered for adoption followed by the public hearing and the public meeting which may not occur at the same time the next section can i interrupt just for one minute to get clarification when you say open to the public you mean open for

040the public to witness or you mean open for the public to provide input open to the public to witness the way that the language is written okay thank you section five the purchase of instructional materials is on the next page and outlines how and when instructional materials are purchased note that the district must maintain on its website a current list of instructional materials by grade level purchased by the district this is something that we are already doing in addition our in the next section access to instructional materials we have to provide that in a searchable format and we must include the instructional materials that are provided through the required instruction section 7 of the policy focuses on the use of instructional materials essentially stating that principals must communicate with parents and legal guardians how the

041instructional materials are to be used at the appropriate grade levels to implement the standards section 8 deals with lost and damaged instructional materials which continues on the next section and outlines how a principal may collect fees from students or students parents or legal guardians for any materials that have been lost destroyed or unnecessarily damaged okay the next section section 9 talks about the objections to supplemental and structural materials rna and use then i want to point out that the next section is about objections to instructional material selected for adoption so those are two different processes and you will learn more about the objections to supplemental instructional materials are in use in school board policy ijl so we'll talk about that at that point for objections to instructional materials we decided to include this in this

042section based on language in the new laws and statutes and wanted to clarify the difference between objecting to an instructional material versus objecting to a library or other reading material so the people who are the individuals who may file an objection to the adoption of a specific instructional material are parents or legal guardians of a public student in the district or a resident of the county any objection to the selection of any instructional material shall be filed and processed as followed a parent or legal guardian may file a petition for objection to instructional materials adopted by the school board utilizing the form available and posted on the district's instructional materials information website within 30 calendar days after the board's adoption of specific instructional materials this provides an opportunity for the public to object to the

043materials after the board has already selected the materials at the last public meeting after that the process establishes some timelines so within 30 calendar days after that 30 calendar day period to file a petition has expired the board shall conduct a public hearing on all petitions timely received before an unbiased and qualified hearing officer the hearing officer may not be an employee or agent of the school district the hearing is not subject to the provisions of chapter 120 florida statutes however the hearing must provide sufficient procedural protections to allow each petitioner an adequate and fair opportunity to be heard and present evidence to the hearing officer within 30 days after the board receives a hearing officer's findings and recommendation the board at a public meeting will consider the petition the hearing officer's findings and recommendation

044and any evidence presented to the hearing officer and make a final decision on the petition the decision of the board after conducting the hearing is final and is not subject to appeal this entire section mirrors language in the law okay the next section is about the use of instructional materials allocation we made hardly any changes to this section and this very much so mirrors the language in the state statutes the sale of instructional materials made some minor changes here just stating that if the principal upon request of the parent or legal guardian of a student in the school shall sell to the parent or legal guardian any physical copies of textbooks used in the school and textbooks shall not be sold to parents or legal guardians out of profit again all this mere statutory language

045and those are all the changes for school board policy ij for instructional materials all right thank you we have no further comments from the board at this time okay the next item that is associated with school board policy ij is the petition for a objection to instructional materials adopted by the school board so this is the form that a parent legal guardian or resident may submit if they would like to object to the instructional materials this form is newly developed so it's still in draft form and we can obviously make changes based on your input so the first page kind of includes directions at the top that mirror the language in the school board policy and then include some of the critical contact information that we would need from the person submitting the form as

046well as the student's information if applicable on the next page there is certain information that we of course need including information about the adopted instructional materials that they are objecting to and then they have specific questions that they must answer like to what do you object and what is your objection did you examine this material yes or no no comments sorry thank you thank you okay school board policy ijl school board policy ijl has also been renamed to library media library materials program selection and challenges you will notice that we absorb the challenges procedures for library media materials into this into this school board policy which is why we are filing or trying to repeal school board policy kec so you'll see the challenge process outlined within this policy the selection of library media materials

047and other reading materials section begins with the objectives of our selection generally what is the purpose of why we have a media center program and why are we what are we trying to accomplish we made very minor changes just to mirror the language in house bill 1467 right there at the top the responsibility and training for selection of materials underwent significant changes due to language in the law so educational materials shall be selected by district personnel who hold a valid educational media special certificate this was not previously included in the law in addition principals are responsible for overseeing compliance with school district procedures for selecting school library media center materials at the school to which they are signed again this was not previously included in the law media specialists and any other personnel involved in

048the selection of school library material shall complete the florida department of education's online training program to assist reviewers in complying with the requirements of section 106.31 florida statutes before reviewing and selecting age-appropriate materials and library resources prior to such training becoming available media specialists and any other personnel involved in the selection of school library materials shall consider their requirements contained in sections one thousand six twenty eight one thousand six two twenty two eight three one thousand six point thirty one and one thousand six point four zero florida statutes this is the training that dr jenkins was talking about that won't be available until january excuse me the superintendent shall annually verify that all media specialists employed by the district have completed the department of education's online training program the next section continues with criteria and

049procedures for selection of library materials and other reading materials this section also underwent significant changes you will notice here that the standards to determine the propriety of library materials and other reading materials shall be in accordance with section 106 .40 of the florida statute specifically that the material is free of pornography and material prohibited under section 847.012 florida statutes for purposes of this policy pornography is defined as any depiction written narrative or graphic of any person engaged in sexual conduct as that term is defined in section 847.001 florida statutes for purposes of this policy obscene shall have the same definition as that term is defined in section 847.001 for the statute so we mirrored the language that we used in school board policy ij as it applies to instructional materials here as it applies to

050library materials in addition library materials must be suited to student needs and their ability to comprehend the material presented and appropriate for the grade level and age group for which the materials are used or made available item 3b books papers or utterances of a sectarian religious or denominational character shall only be included in the collection for instructional purposes when related to an objective study of the bible and of religion this is this is a sentence from school board policy imb so we absorb that policy which is why we are recommending the repeal of scope policy imb section c outlines what a media specialist shall do when selecting materials for the purpose of including them in the collection including evaluating the existing collection consulting reputable professionally recognized reviewing periodicals and school community stakeholders the school community

051stakeholders piece is new in the law consider materials based on reader interests consumer materials that support the state academic standards the line curriculum and consider materials that support the academic needs of students and faculty okay material shall be considered on the basis of overall purpose timeliness importance of the subject matter quality of the writing production readability authoritativeness reputation of the publisher and producer reputation and significance of the author artist composer producer format and price the last item changed significantly as well and applies to donated educational materials so donated or otherwise made available educational materials shall be accepted with the understanding that their inclusion in the collection shall be determined by the district personnel who hold a valid educational media specialist certificate in accordance with the same selection criteria and procedures as purchase materials section 4

052is entirely new criteria for removal of library materials and other reading materials this was also based on language in the new laws so material shall be evaluated and considered for removal from collections on a regular basis at minimum materials shall be considered for removal based on the following criteria the physical condition the rate of recent circulation lack of alignment to state academic standards and relevancy to curriculum out of date content or removed as a result of a formal challenge maintained in the media center this section is also entirely new each school shall publish on its website a link to the searchable library catalog which shall list all materials maintained in the media center and this is something that we have already been doing for quite some time each school shall publish on its website a

053list of all materials required as part of a school or grade level reading list please member castro daniel and then i'll go into vice chair thank you madam chair can i go back to the criteria and procedures for selection of library reading materials it's 3b right there books papers or utterances of a sectarian religious or denominational character shall only be included in the collection for instructional purposes when related to an objective study of the bible and of religion it does that mean that if there is a character in a book that is of a religion that's part of the character's development that they can't be we can't have that book because it's not an objective study of the bible or religion mr pomerani mr president i'm sure we're listening we're looking to i don't think

054that's what the statute was meant to do what this statute of 1345 is a statute that talks about if you had a class of comparative religion so we have to allow that as far as under the statute i don't think that if the talking about a character's religious development is as like a character development aspect of the book i don't think that's what the statute is intended to prohibit okay so what if they're saying that there's a problem when it's in instructional purposes what if it is a study of gandhi but it's not the study of his religion or but he does quote some religious underpinnings is that not allowed i don't think that's what the statute was designed to prohibit it's designed to ensure that we're not indoctrinating students into one particular religion or

055another but having a survey of a historical survey of somebody like gandhi and his religious philosophies i don't think that's what this is intended to prohibit when they say books papers or utterances that's that seems pretty limiting i don't know i understand it's statutory but that to me is rather confusing books papers or utterances came from the previous version of our policy i am it's a imb and so that could be we could probably just track the statutory language explicitly the statutory languages says the district school board may install public schools in the public schools in the district a secular program of education including but not limited to an objective study of the bible and of religion we could probably you more closely to that if we wanted to to rework the language okay i

056just you know there's a lot of historical figures that we study that have religious utterances or that are guided by the religion that are fully about the character the essence of the character without the study of the religion or the bible i just think that's maybe some clarity would help i mean we can't read about the pope no that's not what this was intended to do we can certainly rework that provision to make it more clear that this was designed to prevent the indoctrination of one religious practice versus the other yeah i'm not sure it does that i think it's confusing to me and could be to others i don't know if anyone even pays attention to that little section of this but it doesn't seem very clear thank you thank you member bird thank

057you member for caster general member bird you're recognized thank you the section on donated materials is that is that what would include classroom teachers personal libraries reading libraries in their classrooms it didn't explicitly state not specifically do we have that indicated anywhere in here i'm trying to figure out if teachers personal classroom libraries have to be created now by media specialists the house bill did not mention classroom libraries okay okay and just kind of a formatting thing at the very end of the policy when you talk about hold on where is it oh i went way too far awesome you talk about media centers at the very last thing that you talked about and i'm trying to find materials maintained in media yeah section five yes materials maintained in media centers we changed referring to

058it as media centers didn't we in the beginning didn't we talk change media to library collections or i don't know if we did or not i thought we did at the beginning of the policy so i was just wondering why it says media centers again make a note of that correct library media materials i'd circle that one thank you okay thank you so to to just to clarify vice chair your suggestion is we just have consistency throughout if we're going to use one term or the other yeah yeah yeah excellent point thank you which term are we going to use media centers or libraries they're referred to as media centers in the district okay let's move on then yes ma'am oh hang on and i just want to kind of just reiterate what was said

059case by case when john palmeri talked about you know we everything is so specific here and remember casa della talked about that you're teaching about gandhi if you teach about martin luther king you're gonna have to talk about his religion because that's that was the essence of his speeches and what he talked about so that i guess the teacher or instructor would not have to feel i guess intimidated by this statue it'll have to just be a case by case because every teacher or history teacher that goes to the civil rights movement they're going to talk about either i have a dream or at least one of martha king's sermons and you have to talk about what that means and it talks about it reflects his his religious beliefs so i guess we have to

060just work it on the case by case right well i think that the language that mr pomerini is going to suggest that we put in is going to resolve a lot of that mr pomerini yeah it will number one number two i also think again we're not trying to divorce the historical bases of these folks in history as far as what brought them to where they were and what they why they did what they did and you know dr martin luther king was obviously had religious bases for you know the things that he was doing i don't think that you can certainly talk about that you know it's the next step of you know and he said this and he said this and this is what i think you should follow it's trying to prevent

061indoctrination i think you can talk historically what the basis of his positions were i think that's perfectly fine i think when you start saying his positions were x and you should believe x that becomes problem more problematic under the statute it's it's an objective study of the bible and of religion you want to talk about objectively yes he was a pastor and a lot of his positions derived from what his religious beliefs were but as to saying his religious beliefs are superior to somebody else's i think that's going to be the problematic portion thank you madam chair yes dr jenkins it just occurred to me because the intent is to avoid indoctrination then perhaps that's the actual terminology that we put in the policy that historical informational can be shared and that we avoid any

062any kind of indoctrination that might just make it clear for everyone i like it i like that all right okay so the next part of the policy deals with challenges to library materials and other reading materials and this would take the place of school board policy kec so the following procedures shall be followed when the appropriateness of books or materials other than state adopted textbooks in use in the classroom or school library is question a parent or legal guardian or resident of the county may file a request for reconsideration which is different from the petition to objection for instructional materials challenge material shall not be removed immediately such material shall be available for student use pending a final decision notwithstanding the foregoing the superintendent or designee may remove materials during the pendency of a request

063for reconsideration if the superintendent or designee believes it will be disruptive to allow the material to remain available the process now begins with an informal request for reconsideration of instructional materials and library materials specifically with the person who is concerned i'm just going to refer to them as a parent the parent reaching out to the principal in writing requesting a conference to discuss the use of the material the principal would then have 10 working days after receiving the request to schedule a conference the goal of that conference is to come to a resolution if the concern is not resolved during that conference the principal would explain the rest of the challenge process to the parent and would then provide the parent with the request for reconsideration form which they would then be able to file

064they would have 10 days after that conference to file that written request for reconsideration if they do not file within the 10 days that would be considered a waiver of any further request for review if the request for reconsideration is filed in a timely manner within the 10 days it would need to include the following information and i will show you the form in just a moment so that you guys can kind of see it in context so it would need to include the following information the author compiler editor date of request for reconsideration grade level if applicable course if applicable publisher title specific reason for challenge page number of each item challenged and the signature and address of the parent or legal guardian or resident of the county requesting the reconsideration you were all

065provided with the request for reconsideration of instructional materials or library media materials draft form i have it pulled up here on the screen as well so again it provides directions to a parent legal guardian or resident who may be interested in a request for reconsideration and explains the general process includes an area for name of concern or name of school and then what the material is that is being submitted for reconsideration they have several different areas that they can fill out based on the florida statutes if they have any concerns specifically with that in mind what brought the material to their attention that the exam did they examine the entirety of the material if not what parts did they examine to what in the materials do you object please be specific site pages picture film

066sequence etc what do you believe is a theme or purpose of the material what do you feel might be the result of a student using this material for what age group would you recommend this material in your opinion is there anything of value in this material have you read any critical reviews of this material if so what please be specific what would you like to what would you like the school to do about this material and then we've given them some choices here do not assign it to my child withdraw it from all students other if this material is withdrawn what material of the same subject and format would you suggest as a substitute and then the contact information for the parent legal guardian or resident is included below as well as the signature line

067that's required okay let's pause here i have two questions i'll take the second one first because we're on the materials form we're asking them to tell us what they would suggest that they that we replace it with if they don't fill that out that's doesn't matter right because i think that's likely huh you like that well i mean we you might like that i just wouldn't want that to be you know disqualifying question there the other comment i had goes back to i think it was two it goes back to the part of the policy i think it's under two where the superintendent or designee tell me again who is the designee how the term designee how are we using that under it doesn't define oh it's the superintendent's designee i understand thing my question

068here is the only reason that the superintendent or the designee can remove it immediately is if they think it's going to be disruptive it seems to me that now that we're clear that there is a that we have defined pornography in our policy and said it's not allowed in our library that if it's brought to the superintendent's attention or somebody pulls it because it has pornography and the superintendent reviews it or you review it or somebody else does and says it has it would seem to me at that point that it should be pulled automatically because it's not allowed on our library shelves statutorily and i don't think it should have to go through it can go through a process but i just don't think it sits on the shelves any longer than the moment

069that we find out it's there if it's true pornography okay so something that we could consider adding in this additional language so remember castor dental thank you madam chair is there someone before me i'm on no you're next and then member bird okay thank you madam chair i have a comment on that same section about the superintendent's ability to remove material i understand giving the superintendent that authority for sure but i also think that it shouldn't just be dependent on whether it will be disruptive to allow the material to remain because it could also be disruptive to withdraw the material so just some more i think clarity that there is a balance to consider in whether you remove it or if it remains the disruption could go either way thank you vice chair i agree

070with both of your points is there is would it be possible to maybe just add the phrase and i don't even know if this is something we want to do or not but for going the superintendent in consultation with the school board could pull a book so that way there is it's not just putting the superintendent having the superintendent have you know free will to pull a book off a shelf if we don't agree with it or we think that's not a good decision because you know we obviously hear a lot from the community all of us board members so it might be valuable for as as the superintendent our current superintendent would consult with us probably but future superintendents may not so is that something that you know we might want to consider well

071one thing might be helpful one thing to consider in that is does that mean now we're going to have a public hearing to pull something and what i was referring to is something that is clearly meets the definition of pornography as we have it in our policy as it is in statute which should never have made it on the shelves in the first place and for us to have to have to go through the process of a public hearing to debate it i would prefer us not be in that position if it's i was not thinking public i was thinking how you know private oh private conversations i'm sorry conversations like how she yeah how she normally would call each of us or talk to each of us individually but i don't know if that's

072even something that and then the uncertainty yeah the other concern i always have also with the superintendent going through a polling process is whether it circumvents these sunshine requirements yes that's true so madam chair yes dr jenkins so i would agree i think there is some concern at what you don't want it to look like remember bird is that you're circumventing the actual process and that the board has made a decision before it ever comes to them so this is just a preliminary action to keep peace and civility or to avoid any kind of disruption at the school site as you would with any other issue to preserve the educational atmosphere and order i think if you try to say in consultation it sends a message ahead of time that the board has also already

073made a determination before it's even gone through the process so i think so i think it would probably be a rare instance and certainly the board being the employers or the supervisors of the superintendent can certainly individually make their concerns known but if you put into policy that there's some consultation it's it sounds like it reads like there is a polling or a decision made ahead of time and if i'm the one bringing the protest i might essentially say well the board's already indicated they made their decision before it ever started and so i would think that would get a little bit sticky and i want to be clear i absolutely support that parents can have input on what they want their children to be exposed to i just think we need to make it

074manageable at the school level so that everything doesn't end up being a board agenda item concur member caster dental thank you madam chair when it when it states that the superintendent may remove the material does that mean just for the school where it's being challenged or is it district-wide i would hope that it would just be the school narrow it was that's how it was written to be narrow okay wouldn't it depend on the nature of it for instance it's pornographic yeah if the superintendent determines that then we couldn't leave it on another shelf on another school i agree once you put in policy that definition then it would be district-wide sometimes it's not obvious you know how it is how easily it fits under that definition so that's why there is that other step

075of the review process so sounds like we don't even need a review process it just goes to superintendent each time go ahead it's still yeah it's still a temporary step it's just a question of if it strikes the superintendent that this is pornography and it shouldn't be there then at that point it comes off all the shelves until it's determined whether it is or isn't otherwise we have a legal problem with something being on our shelves that's not supposed to be there i mean you can still go through the process of of it not being the superintendent's sole decision but i think once you're made aware of something that violates the law and you do nothing i think at that point up until then i think we could have a legal problem to balance with

076you if there's a book on our shelves that has pornography in it i think we have a legal problem but i think we have a much greater problem when it's been brought to our intention and we say well it's going to sit there for another 10 days and then another period in another period so that was the reason i felt like it's important if the superintendent believes that it is a clear case of pornography that she has the authority to remove it during the process back to you member caster dental i'm not sure that there are always or that every situation is clear-cut if it's pornography we're still debating what that means even though it's in statute it isn't always obvious so some of our works of literature may have a scene that depicts rape

077but that's essential to the story and it's do you is that pornography did we determine that's pornography i don't i'm not disagreeing with you that it's not as clear cut as one might think i'm really not disagreeing with you i'm just thinking that if it's if the superintendent has reviewed it and believes it is that it would be prudent to have the authority for her to pull it off the shelves while it goes through the process i know that's giving the superintendent a certain amount of latitude to make that what might be a subjective determination is what your concern is which i understand completely i'm against pulling books off of the shelf so any way that i can slow that process down to allow access to literature for students i'm in favor of so how

078long does this review process normally take with all the different steps how long could that process be or how short could it be we've defined some dates we to define some dates within the policy to to make it so we can have some benchmarks to make sure the process goes smoother and quicker okay thank you all right let me go back to vice chair so maybe just adding the word temporarily in that might be helpful superintendent may temporarily remove material during and then adding if or designate believes it will be disruptive or violates clearly violates law or something to that effect to get your point in there but i do understand dr castro general's concern as well and i think that if we had you know shorter timelines that might be better i know there's

079concerns that some books that it has you know taken a long time for some of the review so my i wanted to ask a question about the conference with the principal when a parent requests the very beginning of the process if it doesn't really say how that can be resolved but it says if it's not resolved then the committee can be put together but my question is i'm assuming the intent of that is you know they come to an agreement the parent understands why that material was chosen and then it's all good but what happens if it's the other way where the principal just says okay i agree with you or the assistant principal as it says in the policy okay i agree with you i'm gonna pull it from the shelves is that something

080we're allowing because that concerns me because we have 205 different principles and i don't want to see books being pulled maybe because the principal's intimidated a little bit by a parent maybe that comes in and i know our principles are fantastic i'm not saying they would be but you never know and so i have a little concern about that it's not clearly defined that possibility that a principal could just side with a parent and pull book without committee and when you're just for clarification when you're talking about that one that first in in the first conversation with the principal are you meaning that you're concerned that if it's the parent says i don't want my child to have access that's resolved but if your state your what your concern is i don't want anybody to

081have access to it and the principal goes oh i agree with you i'm taking it off that's what you're that's what my concern is yes we can we can look at that i understand your point that's a very good point okay and then i just wanted to get a little clarification that you have two forms this last form is for library the objection of library materials that the other form from the instructional materials those are two those are for two different things but can you pull up that yes the last one i think i know what you're going to say it should just say library library materials same top here it's just a little confusing because i know when i pulled them both if i was like why are there two different ones and what

082is this one for and what's that before it's just a little confusing absolutely thank you okay and we did try to combine them two into one form but it made it more confusing yeah okay i thought it was better to to put the state adopted version and then the materials separate that's a remnant of the combination that we forgot to remove sorry yeah and maybe if the other one i don't know what the other one says but if the other one says stated what is that one adopted adoption to instructional materials adopted by the school okay that's that's pretty clear though okay we'll definitely make that adjustment i think that's all i had thank you thank you member felder thank you chair i remember when you all came with us individually we went through this

083meticulously my concern again ev with the principles or whomever is in charge if if there's a complaint from a parent or community member and the teacher is just left there and told no can't teach it i have a real issue with that because i would probably be the teacher that would rebel my concern is that eventually though even with the superintendent's you know suggestion because as she said we don't ever want parents to feel like they don't have a stake in what we're teaching but i really have a serious issue with a parent saying nobody should learn it no you don't have that right but if you're concerned with your child and i'm just giving my own personal experience when i was teaching at edgewater i had a book it's quite controversial and it dealt

084with sodomy but i had letters written my principal told him i had to have letters but i already knew it but he said you have to send letters to the parents to give them opportunity to to make a decision out of the last six or seven years of teaching that book at edgewater three parents from the six to seven years said no but i gave them that benefit of the doubt you know and then i also asked them do you have i can suggest another book but do you have a suggestion a lot of them may not so i understand not putting them on that spot saying because they can't think of a book then no no i gave them the option do you have another book and many of them said no i said

085well i have a book another book that you can you read but ultimately as a board we're going to have to make decisions anyway on the policies are we not do we not make those decisions so allow them the access to deliberate and to discuss and agree and disagree let's go come right back here right just want to make sure thanks okay all right so i will continue under section four the school level formal request for reconsideration item b so upon receipt of a timely request for reconsideration of instruct of insurance i'm sorry can we hold up just a minute i didn't see remember lopez said press the button let's stop here before we move on thank you thank you madam chair my concern is with and every person can can complain about a book

086or resource if this person live in the county they can be able to to complain so the process will be different because if we have a parent complain the parent needs a parent conference and how is going to work with the resident not being a parent not how is the process to be followed the resident would also have to reach out in writing and request a conference with the principal regarding the book okay so after that okay how can we because i heard that they have you know they can't provide an option after they complain but if this type of law allow vendors to do that because if a vendor feel that you know i don't like that book because my book is better and i want to to make business with those cps so

087let me complain because i'm a resident of orange county blah blah blah that person can provide an option and might be not not you know not even committed to the reality of the of the or the pro of the complaint you know it's not committed with the students it's just committed with his how can we avoid that through this policy because i think that this is gonna be an easy way for a vendor so several things going back to the selection criteria the school library media specialist would still have to select this person's book and it would still need to meet the various selection criteria that we have established both in state statute and then just overall doesn't meet the needs of the collection does it meet the standards does it meet the needs of

088the students so it wouldn't be necessarily just so easy for a vendor to have their own personal agenda for filing a challenge one additional area to consider is that we have a contract with approved vendors from whom we can purchase books and so if this is a person who is perhaps self-publishing a book and they are not somebody that we can purchase from through a vendor then that would not be a book that we would technically be able to purchase but to make a complaint the person had more expertise than a resident not knowing i think that it's gonna be an easy way out anyways by just analyzing the type of resource or material in the media center i still think that the policy is not clear you know on that matter maybe we can

089work with mr palmerini i mean i understand what you're saying because if they're a resident and they happen to have a publishing company could they file i mean technically because of how it says apparently little gardening or a resident of the county to your point i completely understand your point maybe we can work with mr pomeranian how we can tweak that a little bit more okay and also if the parent doesn't have any recommendation are we gonna take that in consideration if they don't have a recommendation it wouldn't be anything that disqualifies them so we talked about that earlier if they don't complete that it's okay it's okay they can't it's okay it wouldn't disqualify them and how you know what are the rights of the rest of the students because maybe he's complaining because

090of a book in the library but the rest of the students that the parents are not complaining for that resource how is going to work one of the items on the request for reconsideration forum asks the complainant what would you like this what would you like the school to do about this material and give them some options do not assign it to my child withdraw it from all students or other so they may have some other ideas as well that they can contribute okay thank you're welcome okay all right i gotta find my spot okay so upon receipt of the request for reconsideration form the principal would then convene the school literacy council which must have an odd number of members and not it but must include and shall not be limited to the following

091people a certified educational media specialist the principal director or assistant principal or assistant director at least one teacher excluding the teacher who may be involved as selected by the principal or assistant principal director and one parent or legal guardian or resident of the county excluding the parent legal guardian or resident of the county requesting the reconsideration as selected by the principal or assistant principal at this point the principal would also notify the appropriate area superintendent associate superintendent and or chief of high schools in preparation for its review the school literacy council is going to receive a number of materials including the including a copy of the request for reconsideration form and then reviews from reputable professionally recognized reviewing periodicals which would be the periodicals that school librarians would have consulted when they were purchasing this

092title the school literacy council shall meet to review the challenge material within 15 working days of receipt of the written request for reconsideration form and then the school literacy council is required to meet in the sunshine meaning that the meeting shall be open to the public and advertised at the school level there must be quorum when the school literacy council meets to make a decision regarding the challenge school literacy council's responsibilities include reviewing and understanding the entire challenge material then determining the extent the challenge material supports the curriculum unweigh merits against alleged faults to form opinions based on the challenged material as a whole and not on passages isolated from the context unless the challenge material contains pornographic material and or obscene material as defined herein maintain written minutes containing the start time and time

093location and names and titles of council members the written minutes shall be maintained in accordance with the florida law the school literacy council's ultimate goal is to issue a written determination and in doing so the school literacy council shall find either that the challenge material does not meet the criteria and or contains prohibited content under section 106.28 of the florida statutes if this is the case the school shall discontinue the use of the challenge material for any grade level or age group for which such use is inappropriate or unsuitable or that the challenge material does meet the criteria under section 106.28 of the florida statutes you'll notice here that we would like the school board's input on how long this determination shall be valid for i don't know if you guys want to discuss that

094now or if i should keep going keep going hang on a second so you're saying if it's determined that it's prohibited how long would it be valid for how long would that how long would the school literacy council's written determination be valid for i would think it would be valid or i'd struggle with this because it just it seems like once a decision is made that something is not permissible under the law to say that six weeks later it's not that decision isn't valid doesn't make any sense it would seem like there would have to be some process by which you would you would somebody would have to appeal that decision to reverse that decision you're making a decision that something doesn't conform with the law there's no sunset provision for that decision unless it's

095overturned by somebody changes unless the law changes or there's some process by which it is overturned but you can't just sunset that decision oh yeah i don't think i'm sorry dr jenkins you can tell i'm just i'm a little just caught off guard by the idea that we're maybe taking regardless of what we think about some of the laws that are passed the responsibility to follow the law when it is passed and so i'm struggling a little bit with that part of some of our conversations here but go ahead yeah i would agree madam chair i don't believe it's necessary to have a sunset provision because as long as the law is in place it should stand perhaps we've seen some other districts have language in there around a duration so perhaps over the period

096of a year or two there is a challenge and the state somehow makes an adjustment to the statute well once the statute changes then your policy has to be changed to match the statute anyway and so the notion of having a sunset or any language that says until such time that statutes are adjusted or there's a ruling or there's some provision to overturn it is valid i think i think it kind of goes without saying because if there's a change in statute then your policy has to come one thing does occur to me that maybe what you were asking here is the determination might be that it's okay to put it back on the shelf and could somebody then at another point challenge it again and so is it valid for some period of time

097where can somebody come in tomorrow and start it over again and can you just have this revolving door of 100 people challenging the same book so from that standpoint there probably needs to be some period of time for between before it can be challenged again but i think once a determination has been made that it's not permissible then that decision would have to be overturned or the statutory provision would have to have changed so that's going to be a tricky language but that's kind of how i would see that i think member castro dental well remember gallo i'll take everybody in order but i can tell remember castor dental's shopping thank you madam chair i just had i had a i had like two questions my first one is in in the in the literally

098in the literary council it states a parent and or community member can be and correct me if i'm wrong there's there's a lot of different laws that pass i thought there was something written in one of the laws that passed that said it had to be apparent like it that we had to put a parent on this council it couldn't be an either or so i just had a question regarding parent or legal guardian or resident of the county because if we choose a resident of the county then there's not a parent on this council it does have to be apparent they're by statute so that i think we need to then we need to remove or resident of the county or unless our intent was apparent well i guess if you're well no you

099could be a lake county resident and we have open schools so you could be a lake county resident and still send your child to an orange county school so i didn't know if our intent was you just have to be a resident and a parent or garden or at any rate if the bill says it has to be apparent then we can't use the community member okay we're checking and then my next question is and i understand that i guess each book will probably be appointed a different teacher or instructor to kind of review for this literary council because this you have to read the book and then you have to meet like this could take a lot of time out of a teacher's schedule so are we will we be doing anything to compensate

100the teacher for that like we will be offering like a stipend like we do if they do clubs like will they be getting paid for their time outside of that they spend outside of the council preparing so i don't think that's unreasonable that has to go through bargaining though i can't unilaterally decide that but i think that's that's reasonable we'll mention it all right thank you all right remember vice chair i was just gonna comment on the time period but then you covered it i think the bigger concern is just that you know the following year they can come right back and do it again is there any indication as to what other policies like this and other school districts have said i thought i read five years somewhere in some other districts yes one

101of the other districts and i don't know which one off the top of my head does have a four or five year determination period yeah okay thank you and member castro dental thank you madam chair if if you could stay right there on that slide i think the concern here is there's two different facets of this determination one is if the committee finds that it did violate the statute then i agree then it is why should we consider bringing it back it should be you know that determination stands but the other part above it says that if it doesn't violate the statute but it may not be appropriate for a grade level or age group then that determination i think could be reviewed again because there something else could change as well what happens in

102one community may be different or perceived differently in another community throughout even within orange county so i think that should be for a shorter span of time than the one that violates the statutes and could be up for reconsideration to be brought back or sunset so that it automatically comes back after a number of years all right so once the school literacy council has come up with their written determination the principal has five days to then send that written determination to the parent or the complainant and that would also be sent to the appropriate area superintendent associate superintendent and or chief of high schools if the parent or legal guardian or resident who filed the request for reconsideration does not agree with the school literacy council's determination they would then have 10 working days to

103file an appeal with the principal and a failure to file that written appeal within that 10 working days would be considered a waiver of any such appeal if such appeal is received in a timely manner it moves on to the district level a formal request for reconsideration at the district level would be convened within 48 hours of the receipt of the repeal which would mean that the associate superintendent or designee would then convene the district literacy council to review the termination of the school literacy council the associate superintendent or designee would then also notify the school board of the district level appeal formal request the district literacy council or the associate superintendent would appoint members to the district literacy council and then also serve as a facilitator for that group and the district literacy council

104would include all the following individuals none of them would be from the originating school however so one school administrator one parent legal guardian or resident of the county representing the school grade one appropriate grade level certified educational media specialist one appropriate grade level and subject area teacher and one appropriate grade level student services representative all right let's pause here remember customer dental thank you madam chair i just i don't have any other comments about the policies i just want to say thank you for i know that when we you presented to us one on one we went through all of these and you answered so many questions then and then here we have even more questions this is a difficult policy to navigate and i appreciate your attention and willingness to provide information and thank

105you to my board members here because this is it's hard for even all of us to get you know right where we need to be so thank you that's all thank you member cancer dental it absolutely is hard because i'm i'm now struggling with this part of it so we've got the parent or resident and i'm not sure because of the statutory language that it applies to this appeal or only the first appeal so we'll need to take a look at that and maybe to be on the safe side maybe it should always there should always be a parent both yeah okay thank you the other thing i'm struggling with is in maybe it is clear in here but if we reach a determination that it's it violates statute then it's coming off of all

106the library shelves or just that library shelf and if it's just coming off of that library shelf and waiting for somebody to challenge it on another one then what is our liability i hate just to look at liability because i think it's it's more of a right and wrong issue and it's just wrong but at a minimum i think it's a liability issue to declare that it is in violation of statute to have it in this library and then keep it in another one until somebody gets around to challenging it but i don't think that's clear in here okay yeah okay we can work on clarifying that good policy we'll make it clear if it's statutory it needs to be district-wide okay all right good i share when you refer to associate superintendent are you

107talking about deputy superintendent in the policy no referring to me i'm the one who currently handles when they come in okay to start the process and then i report back okay and that is based off of how kec was written previously okay is that i feel like that's not very clear though okay we know that but i don't think it's very clear in the policy maybe associate superintendent over curriculum we were trying to do that but that name has changed over the course of the year so we were trying to change we didn't want to change the policy each time the title title that it's me but if my title changes then it had a couple different titles right we'll just put your name in the policy there we go also a quick question about

108the teachers that are being chosen for these committees in both of these scenarios is this a teacher being told by a principal or is it a volunteer volunteer okay yeah that's also not very clear and i realize that might be also a bargaining issue i don't know if that is or not but i feel like that needs to be a little clear because it could it could turn into a principal telling teachers to do this and maybe they really don't want to or can't or don't have the time yeah appropriate grade levels we have we had talked about this i think in our meeting about having students on the committee and we decided no we talked about was high school is currently where we potentially could have them middle school and elementary but if it's

109in policy we say it's student would you want a fifth grader right than your partner so we left that out okay because it would be in policy and it would apply to we couldn't define whether it be high school middle school or elementary so we put it in the policy so the councils both say not be limited to the following members but they must include an odd number of members so that's where that would fit in okay thank you all right that just raises another issue so i if we were even going to think about having a student and if the challenge is that it violates florida statute for us to have it in the library and make it available for our students to read and then we have a student on a committee that's

110mandated to read something that we're going to determine nobody should have read and it shouldn't have been there just doesn't feel very good to me to put a student in the process of determining whether is that am i clear i know him rambling but we yeah from our conversations we just did not put student in there for multiple reasons but what you're saying is we might i mean because it's not excluded absolutely pointing out that one of the problems with that is if it's to determine whether there's material that should never have been presented to our children and then we ask one or to our students and we asked one of our students to read the book to determine if they shouldn't have read the book is just maybe about 18 yeah maybe if they're

11118 if we have a couple of 18 year olds that would be fine but i would i personally would be against having a student on there for that particular reason otherwise having their their input on it might be valuable but i think given the fact that we're asking them to potentially read something that they shouldn't have had access to just seems like like an oxymoron or something madam chair so then but not limited to could be taken out there so it's very precise on who's on the committee policies are usually pretty clear yeah or you could just in some way make it clear that it's not going to be that students won't be permitted on the committees i didn't think of the issue until you just raised it as long as that language but but

112not limited to yeah you leave it open you do it for anyone to insist on being included that's true policy ought to be pretty clear yeah that's true vice chair just to add to that i while i agree with you i understand your concerns i also don't like the idea of excluding students and i understand your concern but maybe we could circumvent that with a you know parent permission form that they are giving their permission for the student to participate only because i think that with some of these materials that have come to us the question of necessarily is not the issue it's the material or it's the theme of the book and i think the insight coming from our students is extremely valuable because the kids living today are experiencing things that adults as

113children never experienced so i think having their input on these companies as to why this particular piece of work is so important to them and their peers is super valuable for us evaluating whether or not it should be included so i would hate to exclude them but i certainly wouldn't want to expose them to anything that they shouldn't be but i feel that maybe if we could get you know a parent permission slip that maybe that would clarify that i don't know let me if i could ask mr pomerani i i agree with the premise that if the reason that the book is being challenged is maybe whether it's age appropriate or has value that having a student on there would be critical to making that determination and so it would seem to me that

114maybe you would make a decision whether a student was there dependent upon whether that's what's at what's being discussed or whether you're discussing pornography and you're asking that student to define for you whether they think it meets pornography so maybe there would be a different criteria but the question i had for mr pomerani or for miss envol but do if we ultimately determine that something shouldn't have been in our library because it's excluded clearly by statute do we eliminate any viability because a parent waived that does the parent get to wave i feel like the parent shouldn't get to waive the statute and so i feel like it's still our responsibility i know you know parents should have lots of rights but it doesn't seem like they should be able to waive the right i

115don't and that's just kind of a fundamental question that i have on this so there is case law that says people can waive either constitutional or statutory rights on their own behalf right i don't think that means they can waive a constitutional right or a statutory right on behalf of another entity meaning so i guess the situation is we make a determination that the book has pornography in it and the parent says okay that's okay i am giving my permission for my child to rent or to check out the book from the library is that basically the question yeah does the parent have the ability to waive the liability for the child and then that's where i'm struggling and i don't something internally tells me that the parent should not have the right when the

116statute says this child should not be exposed to this if the parent doesn't have the right to say yeah that's okay sorry for my child so i don't think the statute or case law goes into that specifically i've seen cases it's a shea versus global marketing that says parents can sign waivers on behalf of their their children because they have that right to direct the upbringing of their children i don't think that a parent could say your school district have to maintain a book on on your library shelves if you've made the determination that it's pornography and you should i should have the right to just give my permission in order to check that book out i think we can make a determination that if the book contains pornography we're just taking it off our

117shelves and we're not running it to any parent even if the parent any child even if the parent gives permission to do it i think that's permissible so i'm not sure where the board will come down on this but it seems like there's two choices here and one would be that students it would be the school's choice as to whether or not they want a student or at the district level it would be the district choice as to whether or not to have a child a student or it could specifically say if the challenge is related to violation of section such and such that a student won't be on there if the challenge is related to whether it's age appropriate or whether it's what's the other one of value than the student a student could

118be that it seems like those might be the two options to bring to the board because you want to bring something to us that we can sign off on and i don't know where we are we can work with this palmerity on that on that okay on that last little bullet to clean it up and make it more clear remember gallo thank you madam chair so you know it occurs to me that well first off i think that the purpose of the district literacy council is to determine those factors right is it age appropriate is it pornography i don't know that a determination in that would have occurred there might have been a recommendation from the school but it in the next process it goes to the district level so i don't know i think

119that's their job to determine if it meets that criteria you know i think the purpose of these bills that came out of tallahassee was for parental rights to give the parents the right to make the best decision for their child so if a parent said i read the book i discussed this book with my child i am okay with that child serving on this committee i think that they can offer input and insight i personally don't have a problem with that i mean i know i think i remember gold said it earlier i know that there are some books that i would read or discuss with my children that other parents would not be comfortable doing and i respect that i respect their wishes but as a parent if my child especially because we're going

120to have students at high schools that are going to that are going to take a stand on these books they're going to take a stand on either they like them or they don't right they've read them they don't think that it meets the criteria they're going to they're going to have very strong beliefs about these books and i think that it's important that we give students that voice they need that voice on this on this committee and if a parent says you know what i agree with my child i've discussed with my child i'm fine with that child serving on the committee i personally don't have a problem with it and i don't think as a board we should have a problem with it that's that's the purpose of these laws that are coming down

121from tallahassee is to give the rights back to the parent so we shouldn't be taking the right from a parent to have a student serve on a council that they might be asking to serve on because they don't like the direction in which the school took or the direction in which they believe that the district will take so i'm always going to be a big believer in involving parents and involving students so students have a voice and they have a right to decide what's best for their education if allowed by the parent so i think i'm okay with it and then i'll let you i know that you want to discuss this to the board but i do have another question that you can circle back to me with no i think i think i

122don't think we're going to probably land the plane on it today go ahead what's your next i just appropriate grade level student services representative i know student services like what why do we need great appropriate grade level what was the purpose for that like can you get a high school if it's a high school book we have a high school if it's a social studies book we have a high school we have a social studies representative from the department student services could be a social worker but so student services doesn't aren't like different grade levels correct so why like if we're pulling somebody from student services to kind of look at that book if it was an elementary social work elementary guidance counselor okay gotcha okay by grade i was just by grade band elementary

123middle school got it all right thank you i just needed clarification thank you number covert just some comments on the inclusion of students on the committee i do not believe that students should be included in the determination of whether or not it is pornographic material i do not i do not think that is appropriate i do think there's value of students giving input on you know theme or value but i would also just caution with the current climate putting our students in that situation with controversial material and being part of that i just want i just want to caution i want to be protective of our children they vice chair is absolutely correct as to the value of their input but i'm feeling a little protective in nature of putting students in that situation where

124we're talking about controversial issues i don't have the answer but i'm just bringing that up as a red flag madam chair remember dr jenkins that is exactly why i had pushed my button earlier because i want to at least be cautious because i tend to be extremely protective of our children i can think of a few instances here where children were standing at the microphone and response was not always what i would like for children that i want to be protective of and so if there's a way to build because these meetings have to be in the sunshine which means an entire mob can come in on one side or the other an entire group could come in because the meetings are in the sunshine and i do want to protect children because they are

125still minors i want to protect them from any kind of public mob scene not that it should ever come to that secondly i think you also have to consider if you pick one child they are going to be probably on one side of the argument or the other so then do you pick two children so both of their arguments can be considered but when all that dust settles i want to do no harm to young people who have to have their mental health and their self-value preserved in what has to be mr paul mourinho correct me if i'm wrong they have to be public meetings they are sunshine meetings and so that scrutiny that backlash may actually be a part of those public meetings so before i could actually get to it remember cobert mentioned

126the same concern whatever we do let's make sure we are protecting our children in this environment which we've witnessed in some of our meetings that we make sure we're protecting their mental health and their well-being as well thank you dr jenkins i had not thought of that situation and i'm not i'm not agreeing with you because i was already leaning in that direction about students but i am reminded of a time when i was just a commissioner i don't mean i was just a commissioner it was a long time ago and i was a commissioner and we had our charter review commission and there was a very controversial it was actually the school overcrowding amendment that i had proposed and there were grown men who were tormented by what decision to make and under tremendous

127pressure financially and with friends in the audience who had you know projects that might or might not go forward in just the pressure that we had placed on people that and when we did it again this last time with the crc where people volunteer and they don't realize how much pressure sometimes comes with it and so when i see the pressure that we've put adults under by asking them just to volunteer and you know they don't don't anticipate how much pressure can come from that i do yeah i think it is a valid point let's take and remember gould wants to be recognized let's we'll take member caster dental vice chair and then i'll go to member gold thank you madam chair i agree with the value in having the students participate and what an

128educational experience it would be if they're not members of the committee i wonder if there are other ways that they could give input maybe in writing i mean it could be teachers don't have to assign it but they could make it available if this is a book that's an issue within that class hurry up and read it before before they ban it but and so we can discuss it but also it may be helpful or beneficial for those students to have access to the deliberations of that committee i think that would be an excellent learning experience yeah excellent vice chair thank you that was exactly what i was gonna say is there a way that we could just you know get input from them and maybe even include in the materials that the literacy committee

129reviews student letters that have been written about the book and maybe maybe there's students that feel very passionately about the book and the impact it had on their life and those are all important things i think for the committee members to be able to read and then i was also thinking about the superintendent's student council they would probably be a great group to you know consult or ask you know have you read this book what are your thoughts and then you know submit that to the committee but yeah i think there's i agree i understand your points it is a lot of pressure but i also really do value the importance of letting our students take part in decisions that affect their education because that's one thing that they tell me a lot that they

130feel like all the adults around them are making all the decisions and they don't ever have a voice and so i really feel passionately about giving them that voice so i would like to see us in some way be able to include that but of course protect them at the same time vice chair remember cool remember gold remember gold are you there i might have lost her all right when she comes back we'll recognize her okay in preparation for its review the district literacy council will receive a copy of the originally filed request for reconsideration form the educational philosophy of the district or the district vision and mission reviews from and reviews from reputable professionally recognized reviewing periodicals about the challenged material the district literacy council is then going to have 20 days to review

131and then convene to discuss their hello hi you're recognized so sorry technical difficulty i appreciate the previous comments of my board members and i wanted to piggyback on that a little bit i think this is a tremendous opportunity in a civics lesson and maybe there is a way to structure a policy where where we're not putting the children in the crosshairs of the law or making them victims but give them a forum where there is discussion about whether a book is banned or not booked banned in in our school system and talk about how we got there and the reasonings behind what the committee came to that and how they came to that resolution so i just wanted to throw that out there i it will be a little difficult to structure in policy but

132i believe in our team so if others thought that was a good idea that would be my food for thought thank you and maybe if we went in that direction rather than trying to structure something in policy maybe there would be just a sentence about there being an engagement process the district literacy council shall also meet in the sunshine and then they must have quorum in order to make a decision on the appeal and reviewing the challenge material the district literacy council shall review and understand the entire challenge material and then they must also maintain their written minutes containing the start time end time all that good stuff the district literacy council shall also issue a written decision on the appeal in doing so the district literacy council shall find either that the challenge material

133does not meet the criteria and or contains prohibited content under section 106.28 of the florida statutes if this is the case the school shall discontinue the use of the challenge material for any grade level or age group for which such use is inappropriate or unsuitable the challenge or that the challenge material does meet the criteria under section 106.28 of the florida statutes next the associate superintendent or designee would provide the district literacy council's determination to the parent or legal guardian who requested the reconsideration and that would need to be done within five working days the board the principal and or the assistant principal of the originating school would also receive that written determination if the parent legal guardian or resident would like to file an appeal they have 10 days to do so or 10

134working days to do so and then if they do not do that within a timely manner it would be considered a waiver of any such appeal at that point the appeal would move on to the school board so within that 10-day period they would have the opportunity to appeal at which point the board would review the recommendations from the school literacy council and the district literacy council and then render the final decision on the originally filed request for reconsideration at a properly noticed regularly scheduled board meeting okay a question for you about time frames you've put the time frames in there for the appellant i think that would be the right term i don't remember if there are time frames for how long it takes the each committee to hold their hearings and if if

135there are i wanted to be mindful of for instance we're asking a teacher to volunteer time and depending on the length of the book the school literacy council has 15 days working days 15 working days and the district literacy council has 20 working days okay and the board has how long it's not noted in the policy okay again i you know it depends on the length of the book i just it concerns me a little bit that i don't i hear about how much time our teachers spend after hours just trying to keep up with you know our curriculum and grading and we're asking them to read a book the dates again we debated the debates are we debated the dates are the time link ourselves okay what is what's inappropriate to be speedy and

136give information back but the workload on the classroom teacher the school or the district so we did we've gone back and forth and we'll obviously take suggestions but we did take into consideration because we considered holidays too yeah because the working days needed to be in there and the board we didn't necessarily have timelines set forth because we don't know when your next regular scheduled meeting could be right and quite frankly depending upon there have been a couple of times when we've been inundated with hundreds to thousands of emails i know we've all been through this we're at 10 o'clock at night we're still trying to respond to emails so depending upon what else is going on it could be difficult to get a book read and i can't imagine anybody that's going to pass

137a decision on this without reading the book so all right remember casper dental thank you ma'am chair i'm i'm just thinking that any high school teacher who would be interested is probably familiar with the book already if it's one of the that they use in their course so they may have already read it many times so there's that possibility i'm thinking it's a library book that they might not they read those too okay yeah a lot of times i think if it's they're familiar with many of the books that are in the library for those kids also i have one question are the complaints about the instructional material are they made public are they accessible to the public and the request for reconsideration forms yeah i mean once they're filled out is it posted or

138is it if someone wanted to you know know who's making these requests they are not posted on the website we are not required to do that we are required to submit them to the state out of based on house bill 1467 beginning in june or july of 2023 so yeah and if requested it is public information okay thank you remember gala thank you madam chair i think i answered my own question but my question was when the when the school when the council makes her district council makes her determination it comes before the board it's not at the next notice meeting right i mean we're going to have time like because if you guys decide on a monday and we have a meeting on a tuesday i just want to make sure that as a

139board we're going to want to review all the material and read the book ourselves that we have enough time to do so right yeah that's what we put regularly scheduled so if you when you determine one of your regularly scheduled meetings you would determine what that what meeting that would be at it can't be on the agenda because we can't add it okay correct it has to be properly noticed as well okay perfect thank you okay madam chair yes mr pomerani so i went back to the question you asked earlier about whether somebody could waive the right for us to have pornographic material in there i went back and looked at the statute statute says that any material used in a classroom made available in the school library or including a reading list that contains

140content that is pornographic or prohibited the parent gets to present evidence on that and it says if school district district school board finds that instructional material does not meet the criteria under sub-paragraph a where the material contains content prohibited content under subparagraph b which is the pornographic material the school district shall discontinue use of the material for any grade level so i don't think you have any discretion but if you determine that it's pornographic we have to pull it off and we can't allow a parent to override that decision and say i would like my child to be able to rent it anyway okay thank you mr pomerani all right the next policy is policy imb teaching about controversial issues we are recommending this policy for repeal because it was incorporated into policy ijl and

141that was that statement where we need to work on clarifying it a bit the next is kec challenge materials policy we are also recommending that for repeal since it is being incorporated into policy ijl needed provide training to internal ocps employees and external stakeholders regarding revisions to policies and new procedures and with that before i turn it back i'd like to publicly thank miss endvall and john palmerini for their help as you can tell they have spent countless hours with us i'm i don't know how they put up with us actually because we were going back and having meeting after meeting so i want to thank them publicly and back to dr jenkins thank you i mentioned at the beginning that training for individuals who need to be involved in the purchase of materials will

142not take place by the department of education until january so unless you have concerns otherwise our direction is going to be that we have limited purchases until you receive your training for those schools that are in existence limited purchases that certainly central office will assist media specialists with for the most part i think we can wait until january for the brand new schools they have to have a collection and so central office will help them with those selections as well because brand new schools got to have some books but for for the remainder we are going to wait for that training in january to add substantially to any media center collection unless the board has some concern over that secondly concerning the k3 teachers and getting them more specific information we are sharing as we

143shared with you information from the department of education's motion to dismiss that provided some clarity we're sharing that information we are going to try to put together a one to two pager that gives some framework for our k3 teachers so that they are not disturbed with the start of school only one other district has attempted a draft and we have a copy of that draft others are working on it we don't want to overstate what is not there we will say plainly what is in the motion to dismiss for our teachers and what is a provision what the provisions are in the actual statute but before school starts we'll certainly circulate that and make you aware of it as well perhaps we will get more detailed information prior to the start of school if not

144we will give the direction that we have thus far more than just 12. thank you any further business to come before the board yes vice chair so dr jenkins thank you for that update will that you said that you that will be shared with the board before it's sent out absolutely okay thank you it's going to be mostly what you've already seen from the motion to dismiss anything else to come before the board all right this work session is now adjourned thank you thank you