001to order the regular building board appeals meeting for July 17, 2025. Can we have a roll call, please? >> Board member Paul Darling >> here. Board member Robert Hart >> here. >> Board member David Arndorf absent. Board member Hugh Flack >> here. >> Board member Kevin Cox absent. Uh building official Michael Mu >> present. >> Uh Michael Redmond. Redmond >> present. >> And Juliet Harvey staff. We have a quorum. Thank you. >> First item of the agenda is the approval of the agenda. Can I have a motion to approve the agenda? >> I approve the agenda. Motion to approve. >> Second. >> There's a favor. >> I We have a approved. >> Do we have minutes from the makeup in the packet? >> Yes. >> Okay. Any comments? Any comments on those? We got a
002motion to approve them or need a motion to review them. >> Move to approve the minutes. >> No second. >> Those in favor? >> I. Those are approved. Next item on the agenda is the appeals, actions, and show cause hearings. We have one um application today. It's at uh for 302 East Liberty Street. So, I'll explain the process a little bit how this is work. First, we'll ask for the applicant come up and sign in and then we'll have the staff um make their report and then the applicant can present their request for variance or what they're asking for. And um if we can see if the building official has any follow-up questions to that and board can ask questions of the applicant about their variance request and then we'll make a motion. So start
003off with uh you can come up sign in and then we'll have staff report. Um so the property at 302 East Liberty it's a business use. Um, a permit application was submitted on 412 and issued 6:26 of 2024 with the work described as finished third floor to have three offices, reception area, and one bathroom. At rough inspection, building inspector Jamie Worthington noted 20 uh 2015 MBC section 101.5.2, to max rise 7 in minimum run 11 in type B occupancy stairs built at 7 and 3/4 rise 10 and an eighth run design professional to revise print to show newly constructed stairway from second to third floor addressive fire rated windows are going to be installed per print on all floors and addressive stairway wall is going to be reworked to 1 hour rating per print currently
004existing stairwells nothing new done the stair do not meet the requirements of 1011.5.2 or section 1011.6 of the 2015 Michigan building code. The applicants requested relief from these sections is they believe the stair geometry geometry and landing as constructed is an equal or better form of construction. Staff recommends this application be denied as it does not meet the standards for approval. The code has not been misinterpreted. The provisions of the code do apply and the current condition is less safe than the minimum requirements of section 101.5.2 and section 101.6 of the 2015 Michigan Building Code. The basis of this appeal suggests that what's proposed is equal to or better than the code requirements, but it's not proven as such by the information provided. Um, based on the requirements of the 2015 Michigan Building Code, section
0051011.5.2, staff recommends the board deny this request and require new construction elements meet the minimum requirements of the 2015 Michigan Building Code as required by the 2015 Michigan Rehabilitation Code for existing buildings section 801.3. The applicant states they cannot alter the structure because it is in the historic district but not have not provided any information indicating that this is technically infeasible to reconfigure the interior to accommodate a code compliant stair geometry or code compliant landing. >> Thank you can come up state your name and present uh request first. >> Yeah, go ahead. Uh, good afternoon. >> Sign in. >> They mean to sign in. Is there a sign in sheet there? >> Yeah, we I signed in. >> All right. All right. Great. Never mind. >> Uh, good afternoon. My name is Matthew Cricbomb and
006my wife and I are the owners of 302 East Liberty. Um, the third floor of the the building is the old Herb David Guitar building on the corner of Fifth and Liberty. And the third floor had been guitar repair for many years. And when we've uh we we renovated the first and second floors for office use about 7 years ago. And then starting last year, we were trying to renovate the third floor. Uh the building's about 3,500 square ft. And it does have a sprinkler system for the building. It's it's not a large building. The the third floor is only literally about 800 square ft because the the roof the roof lines are, you know, technically cutting off some of the square footage. the the way it was before we tried to do the started
007the renovation was there was a serious trip hazard at the top under the old stairs. You got to the top and you had to make a step up to either side and you know what we did is we we leveled that out and we brought the stairs back. So, you know, we we we feel that we really enhanced the safety overall because the the the stair hazard at the top was like more dangerous than anything else. The other thing is the way it was before is when you got to the bottom of the stairs, the door was right up to the stairs. And what we're proposing in the variance is that there be a 24 in space between the stairs and the door. The total space is 68 in between the stairs and the exterior
008wall. And I have we have a measurement and a picture to show. I mean it's it's the the stairs from the first floor to the second floor landing are 40 in wide. And so we feel that the 24 in landing space between the door and the stairs is the best the best that can be done in in that in that um situation. I just think overall the the stairs and the door proposed is much safer than it was before. Um, and you know, my wife and I are asking your help in approving the variance request. And I have Rob Fowler here who's the contractor if there's any other questions or if there's anything he can add to it. >> Okay. Thank you. Any rebuttal? Okay. questions from the board. >> Yes. >> Um, just a
009quick So, the building is completely sprinkler. >> Yes. Yes, sir. >> Uh, just a quick question to the building department. Does the stair enclosure have to be 1 hour a? >> Um, yeah. It was indicated on the original plans as 1 hour and reviewed as such and approved as such. Okay. Um >> so uh first question is on the existing second floor plan. Um so the condition with the stair and the door is actually what is what you're proposing with the two foot landing right in front of the door. >> A twoft space between the door and the stairs. >> Okay. And then um I guess my first question is why do you even need a door there? >> The I think the building department wanted to keep it a separate a separate unit. >>
010Well, the other reason is we we have a tenant who's ready who's been hoping to move in for several months and it's a it's a couple of lawyers. It's a lawyer from Lancing who's kind of relocating to Ann Arbor. And you know, based on the attorney um >> ethics provisions, you have to have a lock. And if there's no door, then you know, his space doesn't have a lock and it doesn't comply with attorney ethics rules. >> I'm not sure I buy that. Um because right now the way the door is configured, it's blocking the stair down. If you come down the stairs from the third floor, the way the door swings, it swings in front of the stair that's going down. Can we show you this? >> You have two doors on the top,
011too. >> I But I mean the it's better than it was before. If to the extent that to the extent that it's important to have space between the stairs and the door the old configur I mean the old configuration is you know >> maybe it's more aesthetically pleasing because >> No no no no no I mean you have door you have there are doors on the third floor that provide >> the stairs >> all kinds of security I mean >> not for reception not for computers that are left out in >> Well, >> you have the front office and then you have one that comes out of the stairway. Two doors at the top of the of the stair enclosure and close the stair fire rating. There's a door there. I guess what I'm trying
012to say is that you're these these doors are to me are creating a lot more problems for you >> because if the door on the second floor wasn't there, you could have an extra set of feet to create a code presumably a code compliance stair. And then when you get to the third floor, the door, the raided door that's leading out of the stair enclosure is blocking the door to the office. I mean, you can have a closer on any closer on it, but yeah. Yeah. But u but that door could be the lock door. That could be the security door. And the other door could be the security door. Well, the second floor is rented out to like three different tenants. I mean, >> you know, each each tenant has a small office on
013the second floor. So, >> but you have a control door to that office suite. >> So, they walk up the stair and there would be two door locked on the top of the stairs. There' be two locked doors. They couldn't go any further than that from the second floor tenant. He couldn't get anything and they couldn't get anything on that third floor. But but I there's no way to this is the this is the only place where I can put a door for the third floor. >> There's two at top of the stairs. There's two doors right now. There's two doors. It shows two doors. >> Yeah, it's open. >> The exist the the door that was there before was right at the stairs. Okay. So we we thought, okay, that's not going to get
014approved. So we said we'll move it back 24 in the door. That's >> that's the second floor, not the third floor elevation. The second floor has a door landing right the bottom of the stairs. No, I mean that's what we're here to try to get the the variance for. There's no door there right now. There used to be a door before we renovated. There was a door that was right on top of the old stairs. >> Mhm. >> And when you opened it, you know, you it still it did encroach on the stairs down to the second floor, not as much, but we were but our thought was, okay, there's a requirement that there be space between the door and the stairs. So, we tried to move it back, which is like I'd prefer it
015be right up at the stairs where it was, but to try to comply, we said, "Okay, we'll move it back 24 in." But that's that's really the only place we can put a door there. Are the stairs from the second floor down to the first floor? Are those the same issue 7-Eleven or are those two long or tread too short of a tread? Too long. >> I don't have information about those sets of stairs. >> So, those are existing. They're not being modified. So, whatever they are, they can stay. It looks like they were trying to take glass out of that stairway, trying to make that rating better. Is that an interpretation as well? >> Yeah. Yeah, there was glass mentioned at one point. Um, but then I think that it got put back to
016the 1 hour rated walls unless it's a rated glass wall. So this the third floor has one means of egress. The second floor has one means of egress and a fire escape to provide the second means of egress. And then with only one means of egress from the third floor, that means a travel distance from the farthest point to the bottom of the stairs off the third floor has to be a travel distance of 75 ft or less in the sprinkled building. >> I'd have to look it up. The >> the third floor does also have the fire escape. I wasn't sure if you understood that or not, but Okay. And that's an existing fire escape. >> Yes, sir. Do you uh do you have any information on what the existing stair is? >> This
017the existing stairs were >> No, no, no. I don't mean Sorry. I mean the one from the second floor to the ground floor. >> I I don't Those were done. Those are probably existing to the house. They just have carpet on them. I I have not put a a tape on them. >> Mhm. >> And we we didn't change those. We didn't change those when we renovated 7 years ago. I mean, whatever was there on that part, we kept there, >> but nothing was done to those stairs. >> I'm sorry. >> Like those those stairs just stayed the way that they were. Nothing was done. >> Correct. >> But they're not too bad. the ones going to the third floor, those were eight and a quarter, eight and a half. They were all over the
018place >> and they weren't really very sturdy either. I mean, the new stairs are very solid and to me they're super safe. I mean, I understand there's there's a rule at play here, but I mean, just from my own experience, it's such an improvement over where we were. Um, isn't is there a provision on third floor where the exit door from the stair swings against the only exit from that office? Isn't that isn't that not an issue? I mean, that door is going to be the stair door is going to be closed 99% of the time cuz fire rated. Santa closer on it, but it could also swing into the stair. They could make that swing and person travel, but then they don't have the pull side on the clear side of the door. >>
019It's not an ADA compliant. >> Yeah. I mean the the occupant load is >> uh one one thing I could should mention is what we did when we renovated the first and the second floors and at that time they required a lift for the first floor and again this is only a 3500t building but >> we did a lift and the the what we did is we said okay if if anybody if any um tenant from the second or third floor has a guest come and basically this happens regardless of whether it's an ADA guest or not, they use our conference room on the first floor and really the third floor is going to be a couple of attorneys private office and it's the same dynamic. If they have a deposition, if they have a
020guest, they use the first floor conference room. So, >> yeah, >> it's relatively light traffic up on the third floor, too. Second floor and third floor, frankly. >> I don't know if that makes a difference for required pool clearances, though. I think no matter what your conceal are required to have the the pull clearance on the door and that's why the way you have it swing now the pole comes on the hall side. So you have it now the way the door swings. >> We we thought about which way the door should swing and it seemed like this way would be safer. I I mean it seemed like if it were swinging the other way, it it's sort of more challenging for the person who's coming up the stairs and to navigate it. So it
021seemed like the other swing direction was going to be safer. >> Yeah. I mean, you can do that up to 50 people. So you have less less than 50 people, so you can swing it the way you want to swing it. >> Very few. >> Yeah. So why the door we're talking about? Why couldn't that be the locked door into the suite? >> That will be if if it if it's approved, that will be the locked door of the suite. >> So you don't you don't need one at the landing between the bottomless third floor to the second floor. You don't need a door in there then. >> No, I did. That is the door I need to to be the locked door from from the second floor, the second floor to the to the
022third floor. That that's what I want to be the locked door. The stairs from the first floor to the second floor, there's no it's it's open hallway. So then the second floor has a locked door at the top of the stairs. And then that's what he's he's asking for for the third floor. If you have the second floor landing, it's like a door into the rest of the suite. You have this door into the suite that keeps you from going anywhere else on the second floor. Right. >> Right. >> And if this door you wouldn't need cuz you walk up the stairs, you walk up the stairs, you get rid of this door and then lock this door and lock this door. So you if you walk up the stairs, you still can't get in
023anything in the suite. Well, this whole area over here was is basically was a reception area where, you know, they were going to have somebody with a computer. >> Yeah. You still got to walk through the door. So during during business hours, you got to unlock the door. If you unlock during business hours, lock it at night, >> right? If there's no door from the second floor landing to the third floor, then it won't be their their office won't be secure. I mean, anybody who comes in the building can go up into their reception area and who knows what. I mean, it won't be secure. >> I don't see I don't understand that. >> Yeah, I don't understand that either. I I mean, it the on the third floor, you've got a door into the
024suite. >> Yeah. >> And then another door into the suite on the third floor. >> Yes. It's the top of the stairs. >> The top of the stairs. >> You're showing a door right here. And you're showing a door right there. Wow. >> Isn't this a door right there? >> That's the door to the office. This door to this office. >> No, this door right there. There's a door right there. >> That's the bathroom door. >> No, this is the bathroom doors here. >> No, it's Then it's not accurate. >> So, this this is the rated stair enclosure. There has to be a fire rated stair enclosure with a door here and there. >> There's no door here. Well, there has to be a door there unless you're going to fire rate more of it.
025>> That's a door flat and stuff. >> Yeah. Yeah. For that even even that doesn't you still need a door then you wouldn't be fire rated here then. I mean I mean what you're describing is not what your drawing shows. So it's hard for us to you know gauge that. I mean, is that clear what what he's saying? Because so this this door is there, right? It's meant it's not meant to be. >> Can I say one other thing about that? >> I mean, the the whole thing about this third floor is >> the ceiling here >> is [Music] this. So if you couldn't put a door there, it would The whole point at the third floor is there's a vated ceiling. >> If you tried to put a door there, >> I understand. The
026point is your drawing doesn't show that and that's that's what's confounding everybody. >> So if that's door is not there, then it assumes that the rated wall is going to continue all the way around. Door to the to the office is going to be raided. The door to the bathroom is going to be raided. No, our our goals to have the door down here closed. >> You still needed is still a fire grade stair enclosure. You still need something at the top. >> Can you have a stair that's not enclosed only at the bottom? What happened? I mean, we were planning a fire raid door at the bottom of the stairs. >> Understood. But your drawing suggests that the this this door is there and is the rated door that completes the enclosure to the
027stair. Okay. So, >> and and and that's why we were focusing on that particular door because that door and this office door if they were blockable would give you the security to the second floor and you wouldn't need the door at the bottom >> of that stair that >> the whole landing issue which to me is actually the bigger problem than your stair run and rise. Yes. >> But once you take the door out though, you can make the horizon and run longer. You have more space. >> Well, you could do that. >> You get you might get a coco compliant stair that's more treads. >> You could you could >> I gain two feet. >> But it it also that the swing of that door at the bottom of the stairs blocks access down
028if somebody is coming down from the third floor, right? I mean it swings against the other the other door. >> You got to walk around. You got to walk out of the stair. Walk around the door. >> Walk around the door. >> Yeah. >> So that door is particularly problematic from point of view of egress, from a point of view of a landing, you know, and it actually impedes being able to get a code compliant stare. And I understand I completely understand the whole you know legal security and all that stuff but that seems to that seems to be the crux of what's causing a lot of the problem. You know, and if you insist on the stair, the door at the bottom of the stair and the door at the top of the stair
029isn't there, then that gets a whole other set of problems because you don't have a complete enclosure, a complete rated enclosure. So, We have a drawing the drawing of existing floor drawn before. Never had never had a door at the top or had anything. >> I don't see a door >> open here. >> Well, >> I think it's supposed to be there. Son of a >> Probably what the issue was was that was apparently stuck there. Yeah. Yeah. Does the building have a fire alarm system? >> Yes, sir. >> Our suppression and alarm both. >> Yes, sir. And the other parts of the applicant application as far as the enclosing walls to make the fire walls taking the glass out. Is that still going to happen? >> Yeah, we can make that happen if you
030know I mean we're still at the the point of you know what you're providing are equally good equally equally what the code requires. We still have that threshold. I don't you know any kind of justification that the a shorter tread and a steeper rise is better than 7-Eleven. So I think just the fact that it's a historic building that was you know it was built like 125 years ago and I mean there just are constraints to you know what is practical with you know the existing confines of it. Yeah, that's on the outside. The district regulates the outside more than the inside. I don't think they're not regulating what you do to the stairway, are they? >> Well, they're they're regulating I mean they're regulating I can't go up. I can't create any more space
031upwards. So, >> yeah, >> we're trying to make things fit, you know, the best we can. >> But it wouldn't prevent you from doing a 7-Eleven stair if it fit. I mean, I'm not sure where else it can be moved. I I it's I I thought we were doing something great. I mean, if I had known, I would have said, "Okay, leave the trip hazard at the top." I mean, frankly, it's >> it's it's, you know, we we thought we were making a big improvement. And I guess that's all I have to say. >> Yeah. I mean, the challenge is once you touch it, you got to bring up the code. So that's the challenge is you can't just touch piece, you know that once you filled that landing in flush. You trigger that stairway
032all the rest of the way down to rebuilt. So I mean it was built as a house. That's probably why it was 8 in rise 8 and 1/2 in rise in a 9 in tread. You know >> that stairway. Who knows when it was done? Any other questions from the board? >> I think the question is where do we go from here? >> Yeah. I mean the the stairs we could discuss the fire rating windows covered but can we do something with the door now that you see where the angst was for us in terms of the drawing? >> Yeah, I I understand that. I I did see that he slipped that in. Um I mean I guess you know is there a middle ground here? Can we live with the stairs at 7 and
0333/4? >> And what I like would like to see is that once you don't show the drawer there, what's the height of the the stairway? Can you get a 7-Eleven stair? If you start at the top when you're staring it and number 11 in treads, how many treads would it fit? How many then I guess I have a question. If you you guys are saying we can't have the door in the on the landing, are you saying we have to have a door at the top? I mean, it's going to just destroy the space >> for the store enclosure. I think you're going to need to have it on the top. There's no door then. >> I mean, >> you don't have then you don't have a compliant enclosure. >> But don't shake your head.
034I mean the I'll tell you that for me I have less of a problem with the fact that the stair was built the way it was which begets a whole other question of how did we get to this point where the you know the drawings were filed but they didn't show anything in terms of rise and run and it gets discovered in the field you know but that's that's a discussion for another time. I have less of a problem with the the stair being built the way it was on the basis that the existing stair is probably just as steep. And I have much more of a problem with the door at the bottom of the stairs and a little too far landing as you come barreling down the stairs and then the door blocking
035the access to the to the um stair going down. [Applause] And I mean the the followup to that is it seems like the the security issue could be solved by putting a door at the top of the stairs the way you have it shown and just making it lockable and making the office lockable. >> Right. But but what you're really saying is it's not it's not security. It's a requirement. I mean you're really saying >> well I mean it >> that you're saying that a door is required at the top. >> Yes. I'm saying it's a requirement from from uh the fire enclosure point of view, but it also seems to solve the problem of security. The variance goes with the building, not with who the occupants are necessarily. >> So, good point. [Applause] Are
036we able to revert back to the old stairs and the old door? I mean, because frankly, if we could do that, I'd rather do that. I don't know if that's permitted or not, but >> that's that's that would be a difficult route because we have no I mean I I was there. Yeah, >> I mean the stairs have already been built, so you'd convert back to the old way, which is a permit and another variance issue potentially. Unless they were still there underneath the other stairway, you can't just take them out. It's like not they're still there. there. >> Well, I mean, if you want to investigate things more, we could you could make a request from table it. You can investigate further, come back with a different option. >> Okay. >> It's a if
037they're making adjustments, whatever they do is going to need to go through plan review. um if they're changing what's on the plan. Um and I think that that's where the inspector asked from for some additional information from the design professional. Um just as a as a caveat when they you know >> it helps us review it as well that what you're proposing is drawn and you can know what you're proposing then it would be a separate if there's still variance needed from what they resubmit. I feel like that's a separate issue. Is that a concern as far as when they submitted do we plan review before the meeting would happen? How would that you know that delay if they submitted something prior to the next meeting? >> I mean we we could get it through
038and reviewed. It would be outside of our um we would expedite it if it was necessary to have it before the next meeting. >> Um but again that's dependent on when we get it. >> Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Mhm. Yeah. Well, we have two two we can we can make a motion on what we have presented us today for a variance. You can request we table it for a period of time for you to get more information you know for 60 days I think. Is that a maximum 60 days we table it for? >> Yeah. That's my understanding. So that would be two meetings from now. It would be you'd have to get stuff in within a month to get on the agenda for the next meeting. You have to be in by mid August. That
039would be a September meeting if you wanted to go that route. >> Uh I mean I guess it's sounding to me like you're you're s like that's probably the best choice. Well, just to add to that, whatever they do, they still have to address the one hour closure issue on the third floor, >> right? >> I mean, >> it's got to be part of the solution. >> Yeah. So whatever whatever you decide to do, whether you decide to just come back with what you've got on the drawing, you still have to address that third floor rating enclosure, wherever it is, whether it's a rated door where you were showing it, but you didn't really show it, or it's a more expansive enclosure. That that has to be part of the >> Package, right? Okay, I
040understand. >> And we've seen fire rated doors that drop down and lock at the end of the day and that's it. You open it. So, I don't know. Your design people hopefully will come up with something. I mean, it could be a it could be a rated glass door. I mean, it doesn't it doesn't have to be a solid door either. So to keep it as >> maybe 1 hour open >> as possible. >> Yeah. >> Or visually open. >> Fire rated for us and lockable for your client. >> Mhm. [Applause] >> Any other questions or comments? >> Do you have any other questions or comments for us? No. No. have a motion. Uh move to move to table BBA 25-0010 at 302 East Liberty. Um for a period of uh I'm sorry, I lost
041your train of thought there. >> Up to 60 days. >> Yeah, I I move to uh table BBA 25 to 0010 at 302 East Liberty for a period of 60 days pending further review by the applicant. >> Second second. Those in favor I I >> table for 60 days. Okay. >> Okay. Thank you. That closes the appeals, actions, and new cause hearings for this old business. >> Uh I did I didn't have it prior to this, but um I got an update from 620 South State. Um and they found a code compliant path that was the stairs going to the basement for the fraternity. um that it had been tabled, but I received an email saying that they had a code compliant path that they were going to submit for review. So, >> cool. >>
042Um what about the other apartment building on State Street that had the eress window basement eress window issue? >> So, with the um suppression and the travel distance, they met the requirements. >> You didn't need a variance. I think that cuz that drawing was in the packet, wasn't it? That was in that confused me there. reminded me. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> It's a good mental pro uh prompt. Yeah. >> Any other new business? None. Motion to adjurnn. >> It's not a motion to adjurnn. >> Second. >> Those in favor? >> I I 213. Thank you.