001LARP, chair of the Ann Arbor Energy Commission, and I'll call this working session to order uh from calling from my from here in Ann Arbor. Um this is going to be a working session of the commission and we're going to conduct this like many other in-person meetings. Um we don't need to do roll call I believe um given that it's a working session and um so we're just going to keep this pretty informal I think uh this evening and try to work through uh some of the some of the things that we're uh discussing today with respect to electrification incentives and and new and existing construction. Um, we'll get to that a little bit more in just a second, but um, public comment, uh, we're going to open it up to public comment first and,
002uh, this will be via telephone only. and to speak during any of the public comment opportunities. This being the time, um, please call one of the following toll-free two toll-free numbers, 877-853-5247 or 888-7880099 and enter the meeting ID number 9568718-7876 on your phone. The safe information is also available on the published agenda and public notices section on the city website on the broadcast of this meeting on CTN channel 16 AT&T channel 999 and online at www.at2ggov.org/watchctn. Joe, do we have any callers on the line? Yes. Um, caller ending in 134. Thank you, Mr. Lang and Chair Harp. This is Ken Garber, 28 Habhill Court. Yeah, I'm looking forward to the discussion tonight on electrification incentives. Um I just note that multifamily housing here now is coming in all electric almost without exception. The problem now
003is commercial hotels especially. We haven't had a single one that's um not gas heated at least partially. So I think any incentive should be directed towards the commercial sector if possible. I don't think we need or want to reward residential developers at public expense for doing something that they were going to do already. And it appears that this has now become the norm. Um but not for hotels and we have a hotel boom going on here in Ann Arbor. Um, on another subject, what took place last week with the new DTE gas franchise agreement or heating franchise should not have happened. I spoke on this at council last night. Unannounced posting on Legisar 5 days before the first reading and vote at council. I was lucky to spot it. Instead, there should have been a
004prior public meeting or the agreement should have run through energy commission or both. This deal was negotiated for two years. There was no need for immediate action. The current franchise doesn't expire until 2027. The franchise terms are incredibly consequential in terms of reducing fossil gas here. But last night, city council did not ask a single question. They were probably informed well ahead of time. The public deserves the same courtesy. So, here's what I ask of staff and council. Please, in the future, be more deliberate and at least inform the commissions and the public before going forward to a vote. Thank you. Um, no further callers. Thank you. Okay. Um, what I've I think what we were intending to try to do was make sense um for tonight's agenda of what is happening in terms of
005uh incentives for electrification and and new construction and existing construction um overall. And it's sort of a followup to uh the resolution discussion last month uh regarding some disincentives, but we were also wanting to um go back to I think some other some other questions that have come up around that and how to move some of these um some of these forward. If um what I'd like to do is what I tried to do is share and I think Joe might share the link to this. I've got a a working doc that I think while we're in the working session, we can all go in and sort of co-edit and contribute to as as needed and help sort of co-create this. Um, but I think one of the things that we might be trying to
006do tonight, um, and let me just share, uh, I set up just some goals for this to try to frame this out a little bit. Um, see here we go. And just I have a quick request. Um Joe, I just got a note back from Larry Schmidt that he's watching the meeting. Can you promote him to a panelist? Yeah, I I don't see them in attendees. Um so let me send them the direct link and we can work from there. Um, you have their both their emails, do you? Yes, I Yep. Okay, then keep on going. I wouldn't wait for them. Larry's watching. So, um, and I don't know about Jan, but uh, hopefully she'll join. Thanks, Joe. So, what I've tried to do here, um hopefully you can all see this um on the
007document is I just tried to identify um a few goals for this and and and I want to pitch that to you all first as a matter of point of discussion and and um see if there are any changes to how we might approach this. Um there's been a number of resources I think shared over the last year around around some of this and I I'd shared a a slide deck uh that uh Commissioner Burkowitz and I had prepared last year um to also to try to frame some of this out. So we might be able to draw from some of that as well as some of what you all might have. Um but basically to see what we might be able to do to take stock and identify what's already in place and what's
008happening um within the city um and that might be also be beyond the city as well that that might be useful. So um just to throw that out there. Um what other options that have already been discussed but aren't in place? Um and then if there are additional options that haven't been brought up yet um that we might add to that as well. So the upshot being to try to create um I think a list of what is happening in this space and and where where the activity is going and what and to follow from that what we might need to do to prioritize some of those um and to use the collective wisdom of this group to um to identify what what the priorities might be in case they're already not in place. Um
009and then to the extent that we can do that to assess where we might need what we might need to advance those priorities or assess where we're falling short um from items on that list. Um that was my sense of how we might tackle this in a somewhat straightforward way. um because I think that might then be useful as a list of options um that if we were to put forward a set of recommendations um in the form of a resolution, it's something that we'd be able to um to work with from that. Um if that makes sense. So I'll open it up um just for for discussion around that and then if there was time we might be able to talk through some of the some of the questions around around disincentives, but figure
010we might work through the incentives piece first. Um any any adjustments or changes to this questions, clarifications. Looks good. Okay. Um great. Um so I think there's one of the things is there's probably some awareness and some lack of awareness around what's already in place and what's happening in terms of um uh what's happening within the city what's happening through OSI and elsewhere and um what I might propose and I would invite all of you um if you have resources and materials sort of at your fingertips and you want to add to this um we might be able to sort of co-edit and co-create and sort build that out a little bit. I'm going to try to pull from the slide deck that we had shared previously um from some things that had come up
011for example um from the uh uh these were city administrator recommendate recommended um incentives and I don't know to the extent that they're um so I'll just start down here for example um and add those to the list um and uh this was just from that first slide in that and what we might try to do is is just build this out as well. And I also know I believe Joe, you were also um might be able to give a little bit of an overview of some of these things as well. So, we might be able to add and append that. And what we might want to try to do is annotate this to the extent possible that we we understand sort of what's in place, what's happening. Um but then also build out things
012that aren't that might be preferred as well. Um that might maybe aren't um if that's if that's workable. Yeah, sounds good. Do you want me to pop in now or any other clarifications? Level why don't you go in now and then we can we can we can all sort of take notes and add and add and begin adding to this and then we'll try to make sense of sense of things as we go. Okay, sounds good. Um, yeah, and just letting I think Larry know I I sent over an email with the link. I'm also going to send it to John just in case if you can text it over to him if that works easier. But um yeah, working through that and I'll keep an eye on the attendees list here. Um yeah, I'm
013not going to run through the stuff you already got in here because that was some of it some of the recommendations from the you know city administrator and some of that's being looked at um you know as part of the uh various review processes that are are coming through the comp plan and land use things like that. Um I don't have great insight at this time of where exactly where some of those are, but I do know that they are actively being looked at and considered for how we can move those forward. Um one other thing I want to mention that we are we're currently doing that I know some folk are aware of um but not everyone uh or everyone might not be is um as part of the plan review process, we do
014currently have a sustainability review portion of it. Um there's a little bit of stuff that's kind of shifting around as part of that. But um for you know again for those who are not aware um for when a new development comes forward it has to go through a plan review and it goes through all these you know things that are mandated and required um you know things again like by the you know by the planning department by other stuff like looking at waste and waste water um you know fire safety trash like all that kind of stuff. Um and a couple years back we were able to incorporate a sustainability review as part of that. Um this is a little unique in the sense that unlike everything else that's in the plan review, this is
015um not mandatory. Um so anything else if you fail a portion of that review, you have to go back and correct it before you can move forward before getting the plan itself approved. Um the sustainability review on the other hand is optional. Um we do it we work through it. It basically goes through all the things around A20 um of just saying like does this meet that like does this have solar? Is this fully electrified? Does this have you know um high levels of insulation? Like all that kind of stuff. Um but ultimately they do not have to take that feedback and they don't have to do that in like they don't have to do that to get their um you know their plan approved. Um with that uh just noting a couple things that
016we have seen both in terms of successes and in terms of room for improvement. Um while this is not necessarily the norm, we certainly have seen in some cases where you know for plans that have gone through multiple rounds of uh the plan review process, some developers have gone back and have taken some of that into consideration. Um you know we've seen some where you know for instance solar wasn't part of it and during this you know when it came back they're like all right we're doing solar or you know um different things like that. Um there's been a lot of different reviews that have taken place over the years. So I I I can't like I I'm not able to go through and say like every single one that has happened as a result
017of this but there has been um some you know some direct action from it of where it was not there before afterwards it was um additionally we've seen um different developers come through um and even before talking to OSI or going through the process have uh had some of the things that we cared about and they they kind of mention it in their plan uh that they're bringing forward like working towards A20 goals we are doing this or you something like that. Um so it has to an extent you know again can't say like an exact number uh but it has increased awareness around what we are looking for. Um that's a multitude of things. It's not just from this um you know from from this process but it has been something we have seen
018in in some plans that have come forward. Um, additionally, it's helped us uh as OSI and you know, the planning department and others get a better understanding of what are some of the barriers uh or perceived barriers in some cases that are out there. Um, you know, when we've been able to put in, you know, again saying like anything that is not fully electrified goes against A20 goals and then they come back and say, well, there's XYZ reason we can or we can't. Um, sometimes fair, sometimes not fair. Um but it it helps us better understand where developers are coming from and so that way uh you know where there are real barriers we can be um you know trying to work on those solutions. You know some of them we've talked about here and
019there like sometimes it is capacity sometimes it is cost um not that is not always the case but sometime when it is and so we can be thinking about how to do the solutions around it. Um, and the last kind of thing that has worked well with it is it's kind of um it's opened the door for conversations and collaboration with some different developers here and there. Um, you know, we've had times um where, you know, something's come forward. We've put forth our suggestions and they have reached out and being like, I you know, I I I know what this is, but I don't really know what this is. Can we have a conversation? Um, and we've been able to talk with them, you know, figure things out, see if there's something that works. again
020it doesn't always work but it you know sometimes it has and it has progressed um you know towards what we want to see um and so it's it's been helpful from that area again it's not every time but it is sometimes and it you know ideally that that helps change the market from from that perspective um in terms of the you know again room for improvement on it I think you know first and foremost like I said this is not a uh mandatory part of the process um they do not have to do anything that's part of it. Um, so you know, you get some people, you know, they they put back in their comments, they're like, "Yep, noted." But they're not going to do anything because it doesn't make sense for, you know, to
021them and what what they're designing, um, for whatever reason. So, you know, that is just an inherent limitation. Um, the other is that, um, it can sometimes be kind of tricky process-wise. Um, like I mentioned, everything else is mandatory. Um, and so, you know, when it when it comes forth to the planning commission with everything, um, there's Larry. Um, it can create some difficulties like during those discussions because, you know, people, um, you know, rightly want to include that as part of their, you know, what what they view as a requirement for putting forward in approving that plan. Um, but they can't hold up the approval of a plan for this. And so it can create some difficulties what can lead to some just difficult process-wise um you know in in in some discussions there.
022Uh so it's it's something that we're still working on and we're working on trying to make it something that does work well uh going forward but it can create some difficulties for the the planners for instance because they want to include things like that but they can't require things like that and it can sometimes cause things to be held up slightly or not. Um that's one of the bigger ones. The other it's it's kind of mentioned in here, but again like we we do work on um you know different state and more broad coalitions on working to uh get the building codes um you know approved quickly um and you know trying to advocate for some of those different you know higher requirements that are in there. um you know, we're we're in the process
023and it looks like they're they're getting ready to finally um be adopting the 2021 codes here in 2025. Um which is a whole another story. Uh but it is something we are working on. You know, again, we're not as active as as as some or potentially as we could be um due to, you know, capacity, expertise, things like that. But it is something that we are we are working on. Um you know, as many folks can say, there there is room for improvement on this as well. um you know there we were hoping to have some of those zero code appendices in there. Um it's not looking likely that that that'll necessarily be the case. Um and again this is primarily looking at new buildings. This does not touch um existing buildings which is something
024that um is a large part of our market because while we are getting new buildings we are we have many many existing buildings and we need to be doing things with them as well. Um and then you know final room for improvement as if you know not inherent by me saying that the 2021 codes are being adopted in 2025. Um it's been a little slow in terms of the process for it. Um before I move on, Larry, do you want to comment on that or anything? Yeah. Um I apologize for coming in in the middle of here. I'm dealing with three grand uh young grandchildren right now, so things are kind of hectic. Um anyway, I I just wanted to make people aware of um talking about incentives for electrification. We did a pro I'm
025sorry I'm chair of the Wolfpack climate action team um which is a local group. I don't know how many of you know about the Wolfpack, but we are a group of about 30 individuals that are interested in um you know climate action and we've been working on um building electrification zero emissions passive house standards for the past year and a half or so. We held a workshop and um got input from the developers themselves, the developers and builders and had them to uh come up with a list of 32 incentives. And then we went out for a vote and had them vote on which ones they thought were the the best. And so, um, you know, this was about a year ago. So, I don't know if people are aware of that effort, but we
026do have a list of the 32 incentives that the developers themselves came up with and their rank ordering of those incentives about what would incent them to, you know, electrify their buildings. Um now I note that a lot of those uh incentives probably you know are are no longer needed since you know pretty much all um as Ken Garber said all buildings now are being pretty much all electric multif family buildings but there's still some work to do in the uh single family residents commercial buildings for you know making them all electric and not just all electric but zero emissions. So I just wanted to uh to you know let people be aware of that and happy to provide that list of incentives uh if anybody is interested. I I can just make a a
027quick note which is that the the framework that uh Commissioner Burkwitz and I had assembled try I think tried to incorporate those incentives as well into into that and in some cases we folded them in and and and um and tried to to pull those and and Okay, good. Good. Yeah, I I noticed that there was a lot of overlap and I was wondering Yeah. So, I appreciate that. Thanks. Thanks a lot, Gabriel. Yeah, Commissioner Merski. Thanks. I I just wanted to uh make everybody else aware of the fact that um I had proposed since this was a working session to include um Larry as well as Jan Culbertson. Um there was some banter before the meeting officially started about the two of them. Um so like Larry said, he's uh dialing from out of
028state. Jan hopefully will um uh join later. But uh with this being a working session and both of them having a lot of experience, Larry leading this Wolfpack um effort and Jan u leading the uh the Washington County 2030 district. I'm hoping that that she can join. Um it's while I'm speaking um it's my understanding that it's not clear that the uh residential code is going to be the 2021 code or the 2024 code. It my understanding that that's still um up for uh discussion and debate um by JCAR. So um maybe somebody else has better information, but maybe Jan can comment on that later. Um so that's all from my side. Thanks. I can speak to that, John. Um Commissioner Murky. Um there are uh three session three joint session days between the Michigan
029House and Senate left before um those uh the residential codes leave JCAR and start going through the final approval process. So, um there at one point there was a hearing um that um heard from the homebuilders and a handful of other advocates. You know, some uh in support, some against um homebuilders advocating to not do the 2021 and stick to the 2024, I think largely as a delay tactic. Um and there was going to be a second hearing to hear from more advocates. and the leadership of JPAR essentially um uh found that there was not the political appetite so they canceled the hearing and I think is just essentially waiting for those session days to time out. So um I don't want to get fully ahead of the process. Something could change but um pending
030any crazy political changes at the state level. Those should move through um you know shortly after the legislature resumes from their their current spring break. And I'm the one who added in that the commercial codes uh go into effect later this month. Those did make it through during the lame duck session last year. Um and um uh later this month they formally go into effect. Um I'm not an expert on them, but they do include solar readiness. It doesn't mandate solar, but um there has to be some planning around making sure that there is, you know, like rooftop solar potential um and connectivity and whatnot. Um yeah, I saw something about that too and it's another one of those once it gets adopted it's that they go they in effect three months afterwards so that
031should be um or that's something different but yeah so be looking out for it all. Um the only other thing Yeah. Go ahead. Can I ask a quick question? And maybe this is part this is part of the um you know in terms of building out some of the the incentive discussion is one of the things I imagine there's going to be some gaps in adoption of the codes and and so part of moving forward for this I would imagine is there's probably going to be quite a bit of capacity building you know not only at the state level but through different professional organizations and trades and things like that. Um, and I'm wondering if there and and we may not know, but I'm wondering and with the city, um, if there's going to what
032kinds of things might be in place then to adopt, you know, adopt and move forward and and and and take this and put these into particularly the ones that are trying to advance the goals into practice. Maybe Larry has something to add on this. Yeah. Um, I was just going to mention, I don't I don't know how much relevance this has to to what you just mentioned, but uh the Wolfpack climate action team is uh in the process of planning another workshop for developers and builders and planners and stuff this November. Um we we had one last November uh and it was very well attended uh this November. We expect even greater attendance. uh we have a number of builders who have and developers who have expressed uh interest in in uh joining in and
033having this. So uh sometime early November um we're going to have another workshop where we gather together you know this time probably over 50 developers that are going to talk about this this whole issue. So if you have any suggestions about topics you'd like to cover if you'd like to attend let me know. uh we're looking for people from you know government entities and other places to uh you know round out the ecosystem. So um you know we're just in the process we have a working team that now is planning this and it includes both developers and architects and builders and things like that. So um just want to let people uh be aware of that and let let me know if you'd like to uh participate or have some input into it. And by
034the way, Missy attended the uh session that we had, the workshop that we had in November of last year. Um Gabe, I can't remember, were you there, too? I was there. Y Yep. Yep. I thought so. Um, I'll just chime in regarding sort of the transition of the city over and um, one of the things I've already mentioned this to OSI staff um, and they're working on it, but I've heard you as we're in this sort of transition period where we believe there there's a new code, there's not necessarily um, for those uh, there's not clear guidance from the city about what that might mean. Um, and so we're kind of in this period of time where there's a lot of confusion about what the new regulations might mean. Um, and I've been approached by
035folks who are, you know, really small business owners, um, that, you know, their architects don't necessarily, um, know what this is going to look like. Um, and it's holding up potentially holds up the process. Um, which when you think about it from a very small business owner perspective, that's it's a really big deal. It's a, you know, potential of difference between able being able to open a a new small business and and not um one on the time, but also just an unknown cost of things. So, um you know, there's these sort of um you know, particularly for the the smaller actors in our community, um this will be a little bit of a maybe a bigger learning curve, particularly in the transition period. Yeah, Commissioner Murky. Yeah, thanks. Um my first first of all
036to address uh uh council member Briggs's point um I understand exactly what she's saying it the relevance for what I think we're trying to focus on here um in terms of uh electrification the new the new codes will not require that so there's you know relation there's um issues um related to the envelope hope in terms of um ceiling, in terms of insulation and things like that. But um it's my understanding that these codes don't don't address anything with regards to electrification. Isn't that correct? I see Joe Jo that's my that's my understanding as well. So, but yes. Yeah. Sorry. Thank you. That's a good good point. Just just so everybody um I had a couple of um points that um I'd like to throw in here. Hopefully we can just make this pretty freewheeling.
037Um and and I also want to get back to Joe too when he to sort of finish the update. Okay. Okay. Um well it's been mentioned a couple times uh that the you know the current developments are are all electric. It's my understanding um most of them are um but I know many of them are being done by local developers um that there's been a lot of outreach to. So for example, Robertson Brothers um I personally met with them two times and they've attended also these um both of these uh Wolfpack uh sessions that we attended. So um I so altogether I' I've interfaced with them four times on this issue. 4M um which is doing Southtown, you know, they're local people. They are really focused on environmental impacts of of the work that they're
038doing. I'm I wouldn't take it as a given that the multif family developers um that in the future might or have in the past done multif family developments are going to go full electric. So I that to me sounds a little bit optimistic. Um I just wanted to make that point. And then um I wanted to uh get a sense um Joe turning this back to you anyhow is um the the height bonus um I know that's been awarded a couple of times and I'm wondering if you can speak to what the minimum requirement was for the height bonus. Was it full electrification? Was it a package of other things? And then the other question um that I had relative to that um is anybody thinking about whether that and maybe this is an output
039of the meeting whether the H height bonus would be carried over um in the new comprehensive plan and would it be applied for example to residential districts? Um I anybody that's following local news knows that one of the big points of controversy in the new comprehensive plan for the residential um areas is whether or not the maximum height will be three stories or four stories. And then if you apply a 30% height bonus to that um whether it's for this or potentially affordable housing um will those height bonuses um be carried over into the new uh residential zoning uh that will accompany or be a a followup to or or tied to the comprehensive plan. So I'm done and Joe take it take it away. Yeah, no worries. Um I I do not know on
040the hype bonus side or on how the how it's fitting into the comprehensive plan. I can look into that. That's been mostly through planning. We've we've had conversations. I have not been part of those. So I I don't know that one off the top of my head, but I definitely would love to hear folks feedback on that just in like I said, I know it's been talked about. I just don't know exactly where that is. But if folks have strong feelings um or thoughts or insight, whatever, um would definitely love to know that. Um and it's all good. I was mostly um wrapping up with my stuff anyway um and happy to turn it back to folks and participate as as makes sense. But the only other things I'll say is just like we are
041um it's always been a thing we've been working on towards this but we are like more actively incorporating these into you know more defined work streams and work plans um around both how we decarbonize our new buildings and our existing buildings. Um so just noting like this is very helpful for that specific reason. We've, you know, similar to what you all have been doing with some of your developer um um meetings there. We've been having some of those too, as well as with the different financers in the space, with different investors in the space and all that kind of stuff. Really trying to um you know, figure out what it is that makes uh you know, what are the barriers? Why are people not doing this? And if there are those barriers in place, what
042are the things that they need to um to overcome them to make this mainstream? um and and where we can find it. You know, probably unsurprisingly, one of the big takeaways we've heard is well, it costs more. You got to just give a bunch of money to it. Um which, you know, um is certainly a strategy and it's a thing we, you know, we can look into, but you know, fully acknowledging to do all of this work is a lot of money and it's not necessarily, you know, a thing that we have endless amounts of sitting around. Um but, you know, we we're looking at this. we're seeing what are some of the different things out there whether that be financial, technical, f, you know, helping with financing, whatever. Um, so actively going through this
043right now and actively trying to find other solutions and so like having this conversation right here is going to be incredibly helpful for that. Um, just noting, you know, unfortunately the way that the timing has worked out the, uh, some of the staff members who are working that are, um, one's at a conference, one is just out for the week. Um, so they weren't able to join us tonight. Uh but I will certainly be you know they will be having the recording of this meeting and as we have follow-up conversations they will be included in that as well. Um the only other thing I want to note is um we do have our you know our our home energy rebates does not apply for the most part for what we're talking about here. Um you
044know as we talk about existing multifamily like smaller 1 to four units can access those rebates uh at the moment. That's the way it was set up. um you know primarily looking at you know that sized building for both homeowners and for you know some of the smaller multi-unit um in that capacity. Uh but we are you know as we're considering you know what the what the stream of the rebates look like going forward considering if that is something that makes sense as we look at the commercial side of things. Um acknowledging this is not a huge bucket. I mean it is a you know a a big number um in the terms of you know the past year is 1.9 million um but you know as you start thinking about what goes into a
045commercial building what goes into a you know large scale building either a new one or existing building you know how do you think about where that money goes you know for instance you could very much spend that 1.9 all that 1 million $ 1.9 million on one project um and then no one else in the entire community gets access to those rebates. Um, similarly, if you're only offering a couple thousand dollars, um, is that enough to do anything? I know we've seen some stuff around, you know, um, I think I think it was in what Larry had, um, or maybe it was someone else, but offering like some help to, you know, do those pre-development meetings with DTE for instance. Um, and so just noting that this is a thing we are looking at. And
046so while we're talking about um, you know, some of some of the stuff, we are thinking about how we could potentially use rebates in that manner. um just needing to ensure that it's done in an effective way uh cuz we don't want to just you know put money out there that either gets so gobbled up no one can access it or at such a small amount that it's kind of like why would I change what I'm doing for set amount. So just noting that is a thing we're thinking of and happy to and that that's all that I have from my side of things outside of continuing the conversation but I will swing over to Larry. Yeah. No, that's great Joe. I appreciate that that mention. Um just uh want to follow up with a
047c couple of things. Um what the language we've adopted in the Wolfpack is uh is to get away from this all electric thing and say the objective is zero emissions. Okay. So zero emissions you know there is a government definition of what zero emissions means and it covers site and source emissions. Uh and the other term that we have adopted is passive house standards and passive house has to do with efficiency. Okay. Energy efficiency of of the building and it applies to both residential and multif family and commercial buildings. So um you know we want to to focus on the objective which is no more fossil fuel use, no more emissions into the atmosphere. And um I think that you know the issue of cost is one that's important that you know people have the
048impression that it costs a lot more to build to passive house standards. It turns out that those numbers are, you know, becoming closer and closer together on the order of 3 to 5% more to make it a p building a passive house standard versus a a a to code standard. And so, um, you know, we're getting to the point where it it doesn't make sense to build something that is not zero emissions passive house. So, I just want to make that uh point is that that's what the Wolfpack is focusing on right now is zero emissions passive house standards. Larry, just to just to to try to nudge that a little bit in in the direction too of incentives, is there a way that you see um this commission helping to I don't know um
049apply those those sort of standards or those definitions or connect connect those whether it's is is the suggestion that maybe electrification shouldn't be the standard or that you know how how could how might we parse that and sort of apply that to as an incentive structure? Um yeah, I I think that's that's a very good discussion to have. I mean the the reason we adopted zero emissions is because there's a a DOE document that defines exactly what zero emissions means. Okay. The reason we adopted passive house standards for efficiency is because there's a document that defines exactly what passive house means. Whereas if you say all electric, you know, that's kind of a fuzzy, you know, definition, right? So, um, so that's the reason we adopted those as as our objectives and goals, you know,
050and talking with developers about that, uh, because, you know, those they're very wellestablished, you know, standard definitions of of, you know, what it takes to be zero emissions patent house. So I think you know it's it's a worthy discussion to have among the you know the the energy commission as to whether or not those are something that's appropriate for you to provide incentives for. I think that's a good discussion. Yeah. And and maybe and maybe what you described right there is having having clarity in the definition so there isn't fuzziness is part of the incentive. Right. Exactly. Exactly. Okay. May I jump in quickly? Yep. Please go ahead. Okay. I I hope everybody else does too. I mean, just all hopefully all respect each other's uh when they're commenting, but uh just to keep things
051flowing. Um, a couple of things. Um, just to elaborate on what Larry said about zero emissions. I mean, one of the reasons that we also started looking into this is that, um, the 4M development southtown, they're there, it is natural gas connected. Um, but they're using natural gas um to power fuel cells and those fuel cells are then going to be basically providing um, the energy for um, this. And so that sort of, you know, woke us up to, hey, we we we don't want to say all electric and no natural gas connection if indeed you can still be zero emissions um through the kind of strategies that they're employing. Um second, I have a question for um Joe. Um, the home energy rebate, um, I was told just today actually that those only are
052available for existing buildings, not new construction. And I I'll I'll give you the context real quickly. Um, I'm a member of a nonprofit. We control seven lots. We're going to be building 24 to 26 units on those lots. They are going to be all electric um and they're going to have a improved envelope. They won't be passive house um but it's better than code. And um we talked about the home energy rebates this morning and the um director of the nonprofit uh had apparently contacted the city and at least was or at least was under the impression that they're only available for um existing buildings, not new construction. These are all um small um we're calling them county houses with ADUs. So they're not, you know, they fit within this um 1 to four unit
053kind of um definition. Do you know what that is, Joe? Is that is that true? I would have to check. My from my understanding it's it's been existing homes. I don't know. I I'd have to see if that's a if it's confirmed it's only for existing. Um the only thing I'll note is like I said this was year one and we plan on adapting things and if it's you know kind of sitting there and it's like this is a identified issue of you know it would be better spent in this way we can we can look at making those changes. Um but yeah I don't I I will look to see if I you know from from all I know it has been existing just because we have such a massive need there but I
054don't know if that's a hard and fast it has to be existing uh buildings for it. Well, if you can make a mental note of that or or I see it's it's in uh uh M or Chair Hart's notes, but um these are these are workforce housing actually. Um some of the units are going to be um targeted for people earning under $35,000 a year. So, they are almost in the affordable range. And these kinds of rebates would be really helpful. I mean, we're we're essentially building these at a loss only by being able to take care advantage of other incentives. So, you know, there may be um some criteria that you can set up um for this is a community land trust. It could be for any community land trust. It might be other
055criteria that you in incorporate into that. Um that's one thing that I wanted to mention or get clarification on at some point. And the other thing that I wanted to mention very early in your comments, uh you talked about um capacity issues, DTE capacity issues. That was another issue that the Wolfpack took up directly with DTE. Um and we got statements um from DTE that we then um clarified with them whether or not we could share those with the city and they have stated that there are um there should be no case in the city of Ann Arbor where um they do not have sufficient capacity for all electric buildings. And that was put in letter form and it was sent to Missy and to Brett Leonard and Larry. Was it copied to anybody else?
056I mean those are the two key people but it was definitely definitely went to Brett. So capacity should not be an issue according to DCE for full electrification if the developer wants to go that way. I I just add that you know we have a good contact within DTE if you know questions like this arise that uh you know we can connect with. So if any developer has questions about capacity or whatever then um we have a good relationship with DTE um to address those concerns. Great. Um, all of you may note that I've been I've been sort of adding some of the notes from prior slides and things like that into the doc. Um, if uh what we might do is go back through some of those and and sort of discuss each of
057those. But if if you're aware of things or have updates on those, please raise your hand um and uh or or just just speak up um and maybe we can revisit that. Yeah, Commissioner Burkowitz. Uh thanks Chair Harp. Um I'll just uh if like this is kind of a carryover from last month's uh energy commission meeting where we were discussing the carbon pollution impact fee. Um I had uh towards the end of the meeting volunteered to um potentially get some like external um review or analysis from coalition of legal groups that um you know might be able to weigh in here. It turns out the city of Ann Arbor and OSI are already in touch with those groups. So I just wanted to close that loop. Um and they are working with them and you
058know um have the latest intel and legal knowledge uh there as it stands. That also goes with the building performance standard which I think is another thing that's in here that has come up a couple times not been maybe the um focal point of any one of our meetings but is another mechanism that would kind of build on the benchmarking ordinance. same thing. The city is in touch with that legal coalition and um I think really it comes down to the the city's legal team and Michigan specific laws and figuring that out. And so so the the upshot here is that um OSI and the city are are in touch with those um getting additional insight and interpretation of the legal landscape not only for the disincentives but also the benchmarking ordinance and performance standards
059that and the city's capacity to implement those both as sort of incentive disincentive structures as the case may be. Yeah. And specifically I would say like the the um the carbon pollution impact me and the performance standard the two key ones otherwise. Perfect. Yep. You got it. Uh yeah, just uh to finish up uh I really appreciate everybody uh inviting me and having uh you know me uh you know tell you about the the Wolfpack is I think this is a great conversation to have and uh I need to go feed my three grandkids right now. So I apologize for bowing out. So you know take care guys and I and guys and gals and I think that uh this is a good good effort. So thank you. Thank you. Any thanks to the Thanks
060for joining. All right. Yeah. Thank you. Bye. Thanks, Larry. Okay. Um, one thing I thought that we also might um, try to touch on is I know I I think there were some city administrator recommended incentives and it sounds like one that we we we already heard about that is being implemented is the hype bonus. Um, and I was just going to ask um, also these are creating new project definitions and classifications. Um, city exempting from city citizen participation requirements, enabling site plan approval, waving site plan permit fees, early project planning support, things like that. Um, I think that was that was one question I think that I had in terms of awareness about those. if they're being implemented um either by different agencies within the city or otherwise. Um and just thought I'd ask
061about that if anyone had any insight into that as well. I chime in on that quickly. Um I I think when the height bonus um if it's considered reconsidered as a part of the comprehensive plan um I would encourage uh those who look into this to think about the 30% why 30 why not 25 why not some other number um and also what what are the criteria um and when might they be phased out? Um, so it seems to me all those those are important questions related to that. As far as I know, um, the 30% height bonus was recently granted on a project. I can't remember what it is like on Forest or Church or something like that. Um, so as far as I know, that's um, relatively recent. That was in the last
062it was sometime this year, I think. Um, so I see uh, Council Member Briggs has her hand up, so she can maybe address some of this. I'll turn it over to her. Yeah, I just wanted to speak um to the spec you just mentioned the comprehensive plan and perhaps things shifting in there. I just wanted to set the expectations of what that plan what might be in the plan versus subst sub subsequent code. Certainly I would expect this sustainability is is going to be something the plan um draft plan is first draft is I think dude be released uh tomorrow. Um I know that I've it's it's it's on its way out. Um so uh but that won't I would anticipate that it you know it's not going to be something that would have the
063specifics around you know numbers you know 30% versus 40% or you know how those criteria but it will set set more of a a vision of where we might want to be going in this next you know um 30 years in our community. So the next next piece would be part of part of code but I I will share that out with energy commission later so you guys can all take a look at it through the sort of this lens. Um and certainly uh I think feedback is welcome but um yeah I don't want to get the details on this wrong around where we're at right now. I'm going to jump in again. Um I I would encourage the commission and or OSI to contact um Rich Fine. Joe, I pretty sure you know who
064he is and he's been in contact with you. There are people in OSI on some of this stuff. um in terms of the the bonus or any kind of incentives and when they're when and and if they should be or if and when they should be applied, he's done quite a bit of energy modeling. Um it started actually with the Robertson Brothers development up um on Duvar and um I don't know if he's done it for multi-story buildings. These are mostly townhouse type buildings. Um, but he used three different models and I don't remember my recollection of the results are and this like I said ties back to this broader topic of do we even need incentives or is it really more education um that the first time the first one-time costs um upfront costs
065in other words construction costs are really not all that different because you eliminate if you do all electric because you eliminate the gas infrastructure and prices are coming down. Now, tariffs may may impact that because a lot of airsource heat pumps are coming from from Asia and there's some high tariffs that are being proposed or levied. Um and and I I think a lot of those are being manufactured um at least the cold climate ones um from outside the United States, maybe even in Canada. Um but um I from what I remember of his modeling, the upfront cost is not that big of an issue. The bigger issue is because natural gas prices are still quite low um compared to electric costs that um it's the operating costs that a lot of the developers are
066concerned with and they're concerned that they may be able to build a building that at least initially is something they can afford, but they're afraid of what the reputation will be of the building if the um utility costs are high. And that's something that um maybe in fact I probably should have thought of inviting him to this meeting so he could comment on it. Although that may be going down a rabbit hole. I just wanted to capture that point because if if we're thinking of offering any kind of incentives going forward, you know, that have anything to do with money um or height or anything like that, we really want to make sure that we're providing them when they're really needed. Yeah, Commissioner Overpek. I think you're on mute. Yeah. Okay. Um, I guess the
067assumption there, John, is that the houses the these buildings are so energy efficient that the air source heat pump will work cuz my understanding is they're going to have a little trouble if we when we get really cold temperatures still. And um the second question I have that's related to that is there isn't should we be thinking about an incentive uh that makes it easier to do geothermal. In other words, maybe people can use right, you know, divert their geothermal under um Ann Arbor property or roads and things like that more easily. I have no idea. But I I can comment on the first um the the heat pumps are there's what are called clo closed climate heat climate heat pumps CCHPs and those those function at the temperatures that we would experience here. Um
068and of course there this is on you know there's sort of a gradation just like anything else and uh the performance of the heat pump is obviously largely dependent on the performance of the envelope. So, if we think back to the presentation that um Tim McDonald gave us a couple years ago, he first started out talking about per um passive house. That's why Larry's mentioning this. And then when you have passive house, then you don't have to worry so much about the the performance um or the type of of uh air source heat pump that you're using or even the capacity of the ger geothermal system. So, um it's not technology is not the issue. the of course the clo climate close cold climate heat pumps are more expensive just as we might expect um
069but that that's not a problem in geothermal I think is is something we should definitely do um obviously it's it's difficult in in a lot of areas where you've got you know down where you're downtown where you have limited uh geothermal field unless you're putting it under the building and geothermal is still quite expensive because of the well drilling So, district geothermal would be great where you can spread those costs over a district. Um, and some of that then ties back maybe even to a gas franchise or a future grant gas franchise. If I can just build off of that, I'll flag think the sustainable energy utility is a great place for geothermal potential because um it's an optin. it will be kind of all across the city. Um, and you could potentially do something
070larger, you know, at a district or neighborhood scale or even even larger. So, um, and it does sound like Bryant is moving forward with that and, um, crossing our fingers their grant from the Department of Energy helping support that is is safe. Um, but I think that'll be our first real model on that and I know Joe is is working very hard on that. So, kudos to Joe. Mr. Murky. And so were you the question you were raising about the perceived operating cost has to do with the the cost of electricity versus versus the cost of gas. Yeah. that renters uh would then you know that that a uh you know this is just my recollection of what I what I heard in the past is that um some vendors or some developers have done
071all electric buildings elsewhere. They may have made a poor selection on their heat type of heat pump. Um they probably then had to go back to electric street um strip heat um when it got real cold. the utility bills were very very high and you know with social media these days people can even get on the University of Michigan website but also in social media and comment on developments and so some of these uh places got the reputation of being very very expensive and that got in the public domain and so they the developers were concerned that uh it was going to be the operating cost more so than the one-time construction costs that were the hurdle, but not if they make a tight envelope. Not if they make a tight envelope. Correct. And not
072if they make the right heat pump selection. And by the way, the city has a new program. And I don't know if this is anything that is only going to be done for um for residential homeowners, but there is a new program where you can get heat pump um selection uh advice. Joe, I don't know if if that's you want to comment on that and if there's any plans potentially to offer that um to commercial. I mean, that's probably expensive because, you know, they're hiring big uh engineering firms to do this stuff, but um at least in the residential side that that's now uh provided by the city. It was it was announced I think in the charging station. Um I was going to give it as part of my updates. Um which is fine
073too, but it's good. Yeah, for the most right now it is residential and like small multifamily um is is is what their thing is designed for and they're they're looking at ways because they've already gotten some feedback and some interest from like you know whatever the weird classifications of bigger than small multif family kind of a deal. So that they're starting to look into ways that they could um potentially think about that going forward. But yeah, at the moment right now it is um yeah it's it's it's residential and smaller multifamily I mean what I would sorry go ahead. Well, I would like to comment on this segment of the conversation from the perspective of um like design being currently personally I'm designing and building a house and um so the learning curve that I
074have personally gone through as well as gone through or helped assist Hback contractors to go through has been significant with regards to how how much even even licensed HVAC installers do not know about the air exchange and ventilation needs of a tight building structure. So, I'm wondering if um it could be possible and I know that there are like state level training incentives for HVAC contractors on on how to design um you know, heating and cooling systems that also um take into consideration very tight uh building envelopes. But it seems to me that if if people are going to be insulating their homes and their you existing in existing structures and it's going to be um restricting the flow of air in and out of the house and then you have these heat bump systems
075that may be perceived as not um operating uh or you know creating the necessary comfort level in in the home and it part of that is the ventilation system. So, I just want to make sure that we're not leaving that out. It's just not just all about the heat pump. It's also about the ventilation. Just one more thought here um around the discussion of performance of heat pumps. Um I very much agree with Commissioner Mursky's um assessment there. You know, there are uh cold climate heat pumps that work at 100% uh all the way down to five degrees and sometimes even lower. Um and just um taking my commissioner hat off and just um talking about my day job at Elevate. Um uh we do electrification projects in like probably at least seven or eight
076different states across the country. And um in some of those um we don't fully electrify. We will do like a dual fuel furnace. And essentially what happens is once the heat pump like once it gets so cold that the heat pump starts losing efficiency then the gas turns on in the extreme lows. Um, but say a home or a larger building doing that can still totally be net zero or um zero emission definition, especially if it has any solar panels attached to it. Um, so just flagging like um we we brought this up earlier, the conversation around all electric versus zero emission. um you can have a dual fuel furnace or something of that nature um and still hit that zero emission definition. You know, it's obviously I think less desirable to you know build
077gas into buildings um but um sometimes you know it just it's necessary um in in small iterations or in small extreme usage cases. Yeah. And it sounds like and especially to reduce those the really high costs during really for example cold spells, right? Where where that where the incentive structure flips um due to the operating due to the operating costs. I've heard that as well a number of times. the I mean this is this is one of the things that I think we've we've heard again again and again in commission meetings also is the need and I know that there's a variety of sort of modeling out there and uh assessment of sort of the trade-offs between high performance building envelopes and the construction associated with that and the cost to operate and things like
078that and and it seems like what keeps getting missing is the interpretation of that for for the location and for those to really understand the trade-offs and the costs in an easily in a in a in a a readymade way. I know there was some work that happened last summer through the Graham Sustainability Institute to sort of look at Ann Arbor and the cost of new construction and the cost of electrification and how that um incentive structure traded off um and the sort of relative expense for that and and I think some high this sort of highquality education around the perceived and real trade-offs is still something that seems to be missing from the conversation or seems to be missing in a readily accessible way. I think and so there's a lot of assumptions about
079when and if um you know both in terms of materials and as well as the sort of economic calculations that go into that as well. Commissioner Malik. Yeah, thank you. Uh, just to follow up on Commissioner Burkowitz's comments about the dual fuel heat pumps, and I could be wrong on this, but I think for instance, the Ann Arbor home energy rebates are not eligible if you're doing a dual fuel heat pump. Um, so I I've talked to a few folks who are nervous to get rid of their natural gas furnace and, you know, they would love to take advantage of the home energy rebate, but it's almost like a little bit of a disincentive. um in that sense because you know they still want it for those uh deep cold spells and stuff like we
080discussed. So I don't know if there's any you know future flexibility on that front. I I think I understand why they would maybe want to not make it available for dual fuel like obviously you want to do the all electrified uh home instance but uh you know flexibility in some of those cases perhaps. I'm not sure if that could work or not, but something to maybe consider. Morris, did you want to add something? Yeah. um we I think keep on coming back to and you know I even do in my head too um this whole idea of education and good information. Um, I I just want to sort of uh repeat a call that Larry uh made earlier just before he left with some additional specificity and maybe lean even on Commissioner Burkowitz. Um, and
081that is this this session that we're planning in November for developers. Um, we're trying we we almost uh we I think we already have a commitment from somebody from passive house institute USP hi US to come in for Chicago for that. So on the envelope side we're going to get um somebody that's going to be addressing that. What we would really like to have is um a developer or an engineering firm that has done multiple buildings that are essentially zero emission buildings. Um ideally, you know, all electric buildings um that can come in and speak to developers and say, "We've done this. We know it. We've done it just not once or twice. We've done it 10 times." Um, ideally, um, it would be somebody from the Midwest. Uh, I mean, if if need be,
082we'll go to the coasts. Uh, we're going to contact Tim McDonald from, uh, Onion Flats again. We're, um, I've also contacted my daughter and son-in-law who are, uh, architects in Seattle. Um because what what developers really want to to hear is from people who have done it and people where they can say um we heard this actually from a developer here in town. Don't just tell me that you did it. Tell me that it was commercially successful. Um because I I gave you an example before where it wasn't apparently commercially successful because of the high utility costs and the reputation of the building. So if anybody um has any knowledge of who could come to an event like that um either um now you could contact me or even if somebody comes to mind 3
083months from now, two months from now, please let me know because I think this is really a hurdle that we're all sort of uh addressing. the people that seem to know and are willing to put time in invest in into uh making a zero emissions building, they're getting it done. It's the people who are um really just comfortable of doing the same thing that they've always done and they're not and because they know that can be commercially successful and we need hopefully people that can come and to speak to that. Joe, I see your hand up. Hopefully, you've got some great ideas on that topic. I'll say I wish I had great ideas on that topic and I think I think it's just to in the context of this discussion I think that is something
084that is um something that would be incredibly valuable in the sense of just having like an ondemand case study or like just a deck of here's the information because I think like um kind of like a few folks have mentioned and you know kind of you're there too of just like the first time it comes up it's terrifying to folks like they're like I don't want to be the first one to do it I'll be the third. That's okay. Um, and I think similarly, it's like regardless whenever we have this kind of discussion with someone, that's almost every time that kind of question comes up is who else has done this? Where else has it happened? Um, and so being able to just very quickly turn around be like, "Yep, here it is." Um, we've
085done a few times where we've like gone out and try to find it and it's like there's there are these things out there but everyone does like not a good job of publicizing the work they do or they publicize it but then it's like in a one-page case study and you're like well that does not give me the information like you know it's like oh cool I need the details I'm going to be designing a you know however many dollar project. Um so I think that's really really useful in terms of you know you've exactly said it. not like we need to write down recommendation, do this thing, but just noting that like that information gap is something that is certainly out there and would certainly be helpful. And I, you know, I I do
086want to lend credence to exactly what you said of like Midwest is ideal. Um, you know, I I think we like to sit here at times and say, oh, we're so unique here in Michigan and I but it is right to an extent. Like we do see these really big swings. Um and you definitely see some of this stuff happening in some places and you know folks might be oh cool that works there but we need it to work here. Um even if it absolutely still could but they just they need to see that empirical data um in you know specifically where they are because again you know not to downplay anything but it's like you know these are very expensive projects what that folks are going about and they want to feel confirmed that
087it's going to be worth it kind of a deal. So getting as close to similar as you can is is helpful. Um so yeah just plus oneing all of that in terms of you know even if it's not a direct incentive it is something that would be very helpful to immediately point to. By the way, we're we're hoping to also either uh at the time of the workshop or afterwards issue sort of a handbook guide book that would hopefully address uh what you're talking about. And just real quick, an anecdote, when I moved to South Carolina in the 80s, my neighbor across the street had a bumper sticker on his car. Don't tell me how you did it up north. So, it's exactly exactly that kind of attitude. imately I used to work in Indiana
088um on climate change stuff and yeah the moment you said oh New York did this or California did this conversation over so totally totally feel that I I I want to ask a follow a quick followup to that which is I mean I think part of the part of what I'm hearing in this discussion is there's there's clearly a need to do this and there's a need to tailor it for some of the decision needs will it be commercially successful that that's a that's a key decision need that that is there. What what is what does this what does OSI or the city need and what and and how can citizen groups like the Wolfpack as we've heard who are who are doing some of this but also what might they need and and what
089do those groups together need to pull this stuff together and and do that work to organize it to make sense of it to clarify sort of what those decision needs are and really match the information in a way that is salient. and accessible and and and allows it to really move forward. I mean because that seems to be coming up I think as a as a broader theme and this you know this this occurs across sort of the whole climate space typically but I think particularly here you're dealing with technical knowledge uncertainty around the sort of economic trade-offs um there's a variet you know just just peer demonstration um and and whether or not is someone next to me doing it um is is its own sort of hurdle as well and barrier. And so
090how how do we are are there missing needs there in terms of how we're coordinating, how we're collaborating? Um what do we need to do better? You want to take a stab at that first? If not, I can. Uh yeah, I mean I I think it's it's really just as we've said in every kind of meeting like it's all hands on deck at the end of the day. like, you know, there's we're constantly looking for things like this and trying to find things and we have, you know, fairly solid networks for for doing that, but at the end of the day, like, you know, we're only a couple people and there's no way we could possibly know every single thing that's happening across the country or the Midwest or even Michigan, you know. Um, so
091really just as many folks as possible that are looking into these things because you never know where you're going to find this happening, you know. Um there's been some that we found just in like you know a very small lo like a small town that you would never have thought of where this might make sense. Um and so it it just everyone looking out for it is kind of the big thing. And then I think similarly um who having those conversations with the developers to understand again what they need um because you know I I can be sitting here with my local government hat on and being like well I think this is the most important decision-making criteria for a developer but I'm I'm not a developer. I don't know what's the most important thing
092for them. Um there are, you know, inherently benefits to being someone coming and asking a question from a local government being like, I'm just trying to find out information. Uh but also times that can be a barrier. Um for, you know, for us, like people don't trust local governments for, you know, fair and valid reasons in some cases. Um and so, you know, having those kind of questions come from folks who aren't like directly involved in the process at times can be helpful as well. Um, so like I said, I think it's just really kind of that all hands-on deck approach um that we're all working at to try to find out that information where we can because I think similarly as we've talked to people, everyone kind of has a different answer. And so
093being able to find out by talking to enough people, you you get that kind of common answer. [Music] I can jump in. Go ahead. Just continuing the the thread here, I I'm wondering if this is an opportunity for a number of entities to come together um around the idea that the Wolfpack has. It doesn't have to be specifically tied to our idea and that date, but for uh the Wolfpack. Um, by the way, Jan Culbertson is a member of the Wolfpack and is a member of the climate action team and a member of the subgroup along with me and Larry and Doug Selby that's going to be working on planning this workshop. Um, but I'm wondering so the 2030 district directly through her is tied in. I'm wondering if the city andor the energy commission
094might play a role in the planning and staging of this. And I'm going to pose a question to Commissioner Pek whether or not the university could potentially be involved in this. Um, Pek was uh an author of the uh PCCN report that included uh recommendations that the city um collaborate with uh entities um uh locally and regionally on these kinds of issues. Um the the architecture, engineering and construction department is doing a lot of buildings um including uh you know the new pharmacy school, buildings on North Campus, buildings in Detroit that are also uh basically built to these standards. They are I'm sure working with engineering companies that are supporting projects like this at U of M and around the country. So there may be exactly the kind of knowledge um with the engineering firm,
095you know, whether they can point us to developers that could come to speak to other developers, developer to developer. It just seems to me um together we are better than together we do things individually. How does that resonate with people? Resonates with me. I think the the first step would or the next step with U of M would be to get Shauna Weber to come and talk with us. Um as vice president for sustainability and campus sustainability. Uh and one other development that's occurred is um we're getting pretty adv uh far along now and God knows what Trump's doing to the university could really halt everything. But um at the corner of Huron Parkway and Plymouth uh we're going to uh build a innovation district with a that includes a new hotel and conference center.
096Um and this will all be carbon neutral. Um, and it might be a good example of where, you know, I'm pretty sure there's a lot of interaction with the city because in the briefings I've heard, there has been a lot of talk about how the city is looking forward to the revitalization of the Plymouth Road um corridor as part of, you know, that would be part of this project. Um, anyhow, Sean is the the key to unlocking better collaboration on this front with the university. And I am almost certain she'd be uh eager to be part of this. I almost thought of suggesting that we get her on the energy commission, but I'm guessing she's she doesn't want to mess with anything that could appear political. Um, that's a great idea. I mean if as
097you said that's going to contain a hotel right conferences. Yeah. I mean going right back to the beginning of our hotel and multif family. So I mean they're the the learnings and whatever they you do there should be applicable to other hotels um and you know multif family uh structures you would think at least. Yeah. Yeah. And I think it'll be the, you know, I don't know if it'll be the biggest hotel in town, but, you know, it's going to have a conference center, which is something this town lacks. And, uh, it'll be pretty cool. Commissioner Morris, I mean, I think that's an I think that's a really compelling um thing to think about in terms of bringing the different groups together. Um, and you know, perhaps it's worth even thinking about how we might
098use the May meeting, for example, as a way to sort of surface some of those um and and and perhaps even think about some of those threads. I mean I what you know one brief comment I might encourage uh you and and the Wolfpack by by relation to think about it partially as a sprint and not a one-off event because I think one of the things that oftenimes happens is there's there's there's discovery that happens in in in some of these events in these workshops that then needs to be taken and worked on and and validated and sort of reflected back to feed it forward. And so you know the concept of a sort of how how do you take that and do work on it also is it becomes really important for some of
099the the collaboration coordination. So you know however however quite well taken we haven't planned it this way but we this will be our third workshop so it's sort of is evolving in that way but to actually you know have this workshop with that designed in really makes a lot of sense. Gabber here is is is your school um the um architecture and and and urban design is there any role for them to play possibly in in this possibly I mean there are certainly folks who have participated and led um similar kinds of activities in the past and there's a lot of expertise um some of you may remember uh I'm trying to remember um uh synctici uh and Lisa so ran and the the um uh series of events um around Ann Arbor. I think
100it was the summer before last um for example looking at housing and a number of other things. Not so not unlike that many think tanks in many ways. Um so there were um and there and there's other folks there's a lot of folks with that have experience around a lot of the issues that we've been talking about. Um so I mean I think those are the kinds of things that would be great to bring them in and students participating as part of that. um um and others would be would be you know fantastic. So I think there's there's a lot of um there's a lot of crossgenerational knowledge, there's a lot of cross technical knowledge, there's a lot of implementation knowledge that's out there and finding ways to bring bring some of that in and
101sort of leverage it at different times is is really important. Um, okay. So, as chair, I'm just I just want to communicate that I'm I'm mindful of time and also want to move move things forward for you all. Um, this feels like it's been a a good um take and and some awareness building around some of these that are in place. Um, perhaps not a fully list. Um, we had an ambitious agenda I think from the start of trying to take stock of what was already in place and happening. um and some additional options that may have already been discussed that were in discussion as from different areas in different sectors. Um we didn't necessarily um prioritize things or get into that granular or of level but we've identified some other options to discuss. Um
102and we've also talked about some areas where we're trying to um maybe where we're falling short or think things to to focus on. one I mean part of the reason I think we did this for the from the perspective of council members and council member Mal chime in here if this I mean I think we're trying to also identify you know where we might want to carve out let's say a future resolution about what kinds of incentives to take on or move forward from the perspective of the energy commission or some as yet unnamed commission in the future. Um and so um I think hopefully we're we're you know starting to put that in place but also create awareness among the commission members among among council members and also also others. And I think if
103we are able to I think as the conversation has emerged there's a lot of education out there that that could be done in these kinds of workshops and and perhaps collaborations between different entities can be really might be an effective way to get at some of that also um in terms of coordination. So, I'll I'll maybe just to tie off this discussion. I don't as if I'll ask Council Member Malc. What might be most useful? Sorry to put you on the spot at this stage, but what might be what might be particularly useful from the energy commission in terms of of this moving forward? Um or and we can discuss that in the future too if that makes sense. But yeah, no, I I actually think that's probably kind of the central question of our
104our debate tonight. You know, what is most useful moving forward? Um I think, you know, creating this list that we've gone through as well as, you know, debating some of the resources that we've brought into this um is a really good start. And I think, you know, having a list of maybe like the top five or top, you know, few things that are reasonable and achievable for the city to move forward on would be good. And then your comment of, you know, starting to socialize those and educate on those options and why the energy commission would recommend them. I think that's a great start. Um, I guess I don't know maybe what timeline would make the most sense, but um, if for instance we have like a top five or a top however many, I
105think it would make sense to recommend those sooner than later and maybe run them by OSI, run them by uh, legal to see, you know, what's possible and then go from there. Um, and I know council member Briggs had to leave early unfortunately, but um, I would assume, you know, she would probably agree that, you know, it doesn't make sense to make recommendations and then not do anything with them. So, uh, come up with what we can that's feasible and start to push, I guess. Okay. Thank you. Okay. Um, should we move on to uh updates? Yes, Commissioner Golden Garcia. Sorry, I should have asked if anybody had anything. I I'm really sorry that I don't have an update right now, but I do um I have a question. Um, as far as as like
106um hasn't there been an inventory of like the city buildings? Um, and like some something that can tell us, you know, should we put more emphasis on on, you know, residential the smaller, you know, one to four units or commercial like what like the biggest the biggest impacts, you know, for the emissions. Hasn't there been a debt inventory done that we can utilize in in um the prioritization? Yeah, I can take that. um yeah if we uh was it January when we heard on benchmarking commercial benchmarking um and that is one of the central questions we do have and as we're thinking about it um as we go because I think um one of the things that we kind of grapple with around it is um you know when you look at it you see
107that um for instance multif family housing has such a big share of the emissions um but there are also a lot more of them um But there's other types of units that have a higher um you know energy use intensity for instance like something like um restaurants for instance you know per per their size they emit more but because they are smaller their cumulative number is less. Um so it's kind of like one of those what makes sense you know do you tackle the thing that is you know on a per you know per unit or per per square foot basis emits less but because of its size it's a bigger number so do you focus on that or do you focus on the things that are kind of more you know energy intensive but
108it's a smaller cumulative number. So that that's kind of one of the things we've seen so far. Um and we're kind of trying to work through. And so similarly like as as we go through and if we're doing like a a top 10 or top five, whatever you want to call it, um I think you know opinions and advice and insight on that would be incredibly valuable, too. Um there's more that kind of goes into all of that, but yeah, that that's one of the things we've seen so far through benchmarking is that you know some of the things that are the ones that have cumulatively the most emissions have some of the smaller number like the smaller per square foot emissions number. So what do we think makes the most sense from from that
109perspective towards getting us to our goals? Any other last questions or comments? Okay. Uh Joe, did you want to do updates from OSI? Yeah. Um what we got? Um, yeah, one of the first things I want to mention for folks to to keep on the radar, um, we've talked about it many times, but, uh, Green Housing is getting set to go to city council in May. Um, we'll be having our, um, you know, the first reading would be on the the May 5th meeting, second on the May 19th. Um, all of the information on the, uh, the website has all all the materials updated on there. That includes, you know, what's in the ordinance, regulations, checklist, all that kind of stuff. Um some of just in terms of some like quick updates on things that
110have changed, you know, thanks in large part to, you know, feedback from Energy Commission and others. Um you know, there have been more items that are on the checklist. EV chargers is an item that is on there. I know that was a specific one uh we talked about in the uh the point requirements people need to meet have been increased um somewhat in alignment with um some of those items on there. Uh but yeah, if anyone has any questions, one, I mean, again, they'll it'll be heading to city council, so folks can, you know, certainly feel free to provide input there. But if you have specific questions, please do reach out to me at at any point. Happy to chat through any of that with anyone. Um the other I know I sent this out
111to you all. Um and we talked about it a little bit here earlier. Um but yeah, we have launched a new um new platform in collaboration with uh Pearl Edison uh the A20 heat pump concierge. Um it is designed to, you know, kind of reduce some of that friction and difficulties when people are trying to electrify their HVAC systems. It's a pretty cool process. you can get an instant uh more or less online quote that they can then come out and confirm and work through everything with you. Um so it's a pretty cool process and it's um you know because it's kind of through this it's it's integrated directly in with the rebates and all that so you can get connections to everything there. Um folks can learn more if you want to get it
112for yourself uh you can go to the osi.2ggov.orgheatpump concierge. Um also um we closely monitor very various opportunities uh for our energy procurement and we recently took a step to procure more renewable energy for city facilities. Um an opportunity presented itself to sign with a choice program with constellation energy. Uh meaning the city will procure 100% renewable electricity at a lockedin largely fixed rate for approximately 70 of our sites for the next two years. Uh this is roughly 50% of our municipal electricity use coming from renewable energy sources. Um doing my now at this point once again monthly uh call. Discounts for electric lawn care equipment and rebates for electric leaf blowers are still available. These are available through May 31st. Um for more information including the amounts you can go to osi.2vleafblowers. Um, and
113last thing for now, um, for our next sustainability forum, I know this has been a question that's come up a few times, um, but it will be on the sustaining Ann Arbor together grants or SA2T. Uh, this will be on April 24th from 6:00 to 7:30 p.m. at the Ann Arbor District Library downtown branch. Um, for those who aren't familiar, the sustaining our Together grant, it provides um, financial support for community based activities that align with our city's sustainability and climate goals. Um and through this, uh local organizations have received grant funding for more than 45 projects that have positively impacted the Ann Arbor community. Uh so come out and join us as well as some of the past recipients to learn more about the process and the lasting benefits of those projects as well
114as how various organ organizations can apply for up to that $10,000 of funding. Um that is all I have unless anyone has specific questions on any of that. Thank you. Any questions? Okay. Um we'll move on to reports from other commissions council. Maybe we'll start with the environmental commission and move to council. Yeah. The main topic uh in the environmental commission was a first reading of a resolution uh recommending that uh the new comprehensive plan uh include elements uh that would advance protection of natural features and uh maintain or even increase uh biodiversity. Uh the idea of this actually came up from a new law in the UK um that applies to um I think buildings up a certain threshold. I think it's nine units or something like that. There maybe is a square meter
115or something like that threshold, but they're actually requiring um new new projects. um and I think even maybe redevelopments to demonstrate a 10% increase in biodiversity and exactly how that's measured. Um we are still digging into um we got some good feedback in the meeting and I'm in the biodiversity subgroup that's working on that and we're going to have a second reading of that. So there's been I think we're on version seven now. Um so uh stay tuned and I'll give you a report on on that. It's not prescriptive. Um there's a bunch of sort of recommendations of things um that should be looked at in the comprehensive plan. Um and more generally um and like I said, there'll be a second reading of that and uh hopefully a vote in our upcoming meeting at
116the end of the month. Thank you. Updates from council. Hi. Yeah, thanks. I think the biggest thing, and it's kind of already been mentioned tonight, but the uh gas franchise agreement we had for our first reading last night at council. Um, and the second reading would then be at our next meeting, which would be April 21st. Um, so if you haven't had a chance to kind of read through what it's all about, the details are all in legisar of last night's meeting. Um, I guess the main thing is it most gas franchise agreements are 30 years in length. This one is not. This one is a uh depending how you look at it, eight or 10-year agreement. Um with the pretty clear uh direction that Ann Arbor will likely not renew it at the end
117of that gas franchise agreement, meaning we would move off of a gas franchise agreement completely uh by 2035. So uh more details on that to come and more uh on that specifically. If you have any questions, let me know. Uh or I guess direct to uh some folks in our OSI department as well. So, thanks. Council member Alec, would you um do me a favor and share what you shared with me in uh a small distribution uh email exchange that was really helpful about the involvement of the energy commission. um the difference between you know typical policy recommendations and contract u negotiations and things like that. That was that was really helpful. Yeah, sure. So, uh Commissioner Murski Murky had asked um why didn't the gas franchise agreement come to the energy commission for instance
118and uh in public comment uh Mr. Garber also echoed some of the same sentiment. Um, essentially what the gas franchise agreement was um, a contract negotiation and it's pretty standard across the city not to go to commissions or other bodies during a contract negotiation. Um, the only commissions that maybe would do this, it is explicitly stated in their charter that that's what happens. So for instance, the green belt advisory uh, commission has that for their uh, acquiring of development rights for instance. So that's a contract negotiation. very clearly with that body. Um I'm trying to remember what else that email said, John, but that was the gist of it. Yeah. So and essentially, you know, the energy commission's role is more on the policy and previously they have directed uh city council who then directed
119our city attorney's office and OSI to negotiate kind of these end outcomes of the gas negotiation, gas franchise negotiation. So it while it didn't come to energy commission you know in the last few months energy commission did have their hand on the scale early on to direct you know city council and city staff to do just what just this what it was came before council yesterday. So um I know maybe it seems like you were left out but in fact energy commission was kind of the originator of this uh of this outcome last night. So, I think that pretty much summed it up, John, unless I missed anything. Thank you. Thank you so much. [Music] Okay. Um, we'll now move to uh the second opportunity for public input and it's an opportunity for people to
120speak for up to three minutes. If you're watching on CTN, please call 888-788-99 or 877853-5247 and enter meeting ID 95687187876. This information is also displayed on the meeting agenda and video feed. City staff staff will will select callers that have raised their hand one by one using last three digits of your phone number. To electronically raise your hand to indicate your desire to speak, please press star 9 on your phone. You may you will hear an automated announcement that the host is allowing you to speak. Uh when speaking, please move to a quiet area and mute any television or background sounds so we may hear you clearly. And please state your name and address at the beginning of your comments. Caller ending in 134. Thank you Mr. Lang and Chair Harp. Ken Garber again. Um,
121appreciate the discussion. Thank you, Council Member Malik, for the explanation on the eating franchise negotiations. Um, just to clarify my comment, I assumed that was the case that, um, uh, I wasn't suggesting that the public or the energy commission intervene in a in a ongoing negotiation, just that we be given sufficient advanced notice so that um, we can um, learn about and prepare responses to this very important important and complicated document well in advance of its consideration at council. So that was my comment. I hope that happens in the future. Um the uh and I'm very intrigued by your comment about uh the expiration of this agreement. My understanding is that the uh no utility can operate without a franchise in Michigan. And so I just assumed that at 2035 at the expiration of this
122one, there would be more negotiations on a renewal perhaps with alternate providers. Um I don't think the city can proceed without a franchise unless it's not using any gas. Clearly that's not going to be the situation in 2035. So I'm not asking for a response now, but I'm just confused by the comment. And so maybe in some scenario we can have a discussion um regarding the height bonus that Commissioner Murski brought up. Um I'm very familiar with this. I've been tracking it actually termed a height exception. It's section 5184 of the UDC. So far um 129 129 South University 19 stories 1208 South University 17 stories have taken advantage of it. 611 church, 19 stories, 1313 brown court, seven stories in D2 zoning. They've indicated they will. This is kind of a title wave. Um,
123this wasn't a factor before because the limiting factor on height was never a formal height limit. It was the floor area ratio, but council repealed that in January 2024. So now we're if developers want to build higher, they just have to um show that they're all electric or all electric ready. I have proposed at planning commission that since this is an incentive that seems to be coming more of a loophole that this be toughened to include affordable housing as well as electrification. Um so far no developer has taken advantage of the affordable housing height exception. So, um, planning commission hasn't acted on this, but I think there's a lot of thought and action that needs to go into reforming this particular aspect of the uniform development code unified. So, uh, I'm probably out of time.
124Maybe I'm already muted, but anyway, I appreciate the thoughtful discussion. I look forward to more along these lines and have a good night. you. Um, no further callers. Commissioner Marcy, did you want to Yeah. to uh comment on the comments from uh uh Ken Garber? What I understand he's saying or just to elaborate on that is that a developer could come in and say, "I'm going to build this building at X stories." um and it's not going to be all electric and have as a strategy of building a higher building um because it's you know to their advantage to be able to do that um then acquies um and say okay I will make it all electric um but I'm going to get the 30 30% height bonus. So it it potentially is set up
125so that it can be abused. I think that maybe you all understood that already, but that's what I I think he's trying to um say with his comment. So, that's something I think particularly um city council needs to consider um is whether or not this bonus is actually needed and in what cases and if it how how is how do we defeat these kinds of strategies where it's used um upfront um in their planning um to get a higher building than what they might otherwise um other otherwise be able to get. So, that's all Um well the last item uh is items for the next agenda. Um does anyone have any items for the next agenda which will be May um 2025? Commissioner Murski. So uh Joe mentioned earlier uh some actions that the city
126is taking with city properties. Um, I'm wondering if we can get um, it doesn't have to be an agenda item, but it could maybe be a report. It could be something that's also relatively brief and just verbal ver verbal is where does the city stand with the electrification of its buildings? Um, the energy council uh, or energy commission I should say looked at um, city properties maybe um, Carlen when was that seven or eight years ago? Um there was a consultant that came in and made suggestions. Um at that time um I think the boiler in the basement of city hall was something like 60 or so years old. Um I don't know if um that has been replaced in the meantime. Um I don't know if it's on the uh capital improvement plan for
127being replaced. If how is it going to be replaced? Is it going to be geothermal? to PC's comments earlier. I think it would be really interesting to hear what the plans are, not just to pro just procure uh renewable clean renewable energy, but what about all the gas appliances, quote unquote, HVAC systems, etc. that we have at our various buildings and what's the the the plan for uh moving those um to electric options or put it this way zero emission options as Larry Schmidt would have said. So that's just that can be noted and you can talk about that as far as a future future agenda item. Thanks. That's all. Great. Thank you. Yeah. Commissioner Overpek, do we want to invite Shauna? and maybe someone from Talman. I mean, I don't know. and and perhaps
128the city and and as well um you know it might part of what I part of what I was gaining from that conversation is there might be using the energy commission perhaps as a venue for for sort of discussing um some of these things as well and providing a forum also for um what might what might be done to help coordinate as well could be could be useful. Um, we we have an agenda meeting, I believe, next week. Um, and I think we will discuss and we might be able to follow up on that relatively quickly. Um, but I think that would be that would be a good um, one thing though is I'm not going to be here uh, next month. So, we'll add we'll add that and we'll we'll we'll add that to
129our uh agenda for the um agenda discussion. Um Commission or Commissioner Coen Garcia. Yes, I am um wondering I really like this workshop format here today and maybe if we have more than one person who's going to be coming to speak like Shauna or whomever else if we can perhaps um structure the meeting like a like a panel discussion so that there's multiple speakers who we can all you know be interacting with asking questions It's just a suggestion. Mhm. It seems like it must be possible. Council member Malik, one one thing to add, I guess, possibly in the future at some point, and I think I actually this was the last point in my email to Commissioner Murky earlier, was um on the gas heating franchise agreement just to have some sort of presentation on
130it for the commission from um either OSI or the city attorney's office or both. Um, and you know, that would be kind of the the forum to answer questions like Mr. Garber's if uh we do need a franchise at some point or if you are able to operate without one. Um, because on that I'm not totally sure. So, it's a great question for them. Thank you. Okay, that's a that's a robust list. Okay. Um, thank you everyone for the session this evening. um really appreciate your input and attention and and all the the the fine-tuning. I I think um there was more that we got out of this I think in ways that we don't sometimes get to. So this was useful um I think in some ways as well. So really appreciate that. Um
131it is 7:57 p.m. and I will now adjourn this working session. Thank you everyone. Have a great good session. Thank you. Let's go.