001e e e order the regular building board of appeals meeting for March 20th 2025 call the order uh roll call please board member Paul darling here board member Robert Hart here board member David arnsdorf here board member Hugh Flack Jr here board member Kevin Cox absent staff Mike lemu here Mike Redmond here and Juliet Harvey here we have quum all right thank you thank you so the first item on the agenda is the approval of minutes from the February 20th 2025 meeting does anyone have comments on those minutes or a motion to approve if not I move to approve those in favor second second I I minutes on the February 20 meeting pass I move to approve okay those in favor I should take the vote afterwards we have one item on the agenda for
002this month's meeting um the applicant is here via Zoom is that correct correct and um this is the process we will follow is we'll introduce the um variance request we'll have a staff report and then we'll give the applicant an opportunity to present their um appeal followed by a followup to the staff report staff report response to that if necessary and then the board can ask the applicant questions about about their variance request so um so the first item we're on the on the agenda is BBA 25009 appeal for 2015 Manchester Road an Arbor Michigan and can we have a staff report please um the property at 2015 Manchester is a group EB building uh permit application was submitted 1216 of 24 um building permit 24- 0622 the work was described as alterations to the
003interior building including wall demolition new partition walls change to existing mechanical and electrical systems at the plan review it was noted for the 2021 Michigan plumbing code section 403 3.4 exception 2 that toilet rooms in a child Child Care Facility containing two or more water closets shall be permitted to have one water closet without an enclosing compartment the submitted plans show no proposed enclosing compartment in any of the water water closets within the bathroom group the plan was required to be revised to show required water closet enclosures per the 2021 Michigan plumbing code the applicant has indicated in addition to the requested variants to eliminate required toilet compartments there also seeking a variance to eliminate the required grab bars the laboratory within the toilet room and surrounding toilet room walls shall be constructed to a
004height of 42 in applicant believes the true intent of the code was not has not taken small children's needs into consideration and these variances should be accepted at this location staff recommends that this application be denied as it doesn't meet the standards for approval the code has not been misinterpreted the provisions of the code do apply the proposed condition does not meet the minimum requirements of section 45.3 point4 exception 2 of the 2021 Michigan plumbing code uh section 45.3 point4 exception 2 States water closet compartment each water closet utilized by the public or employee shall occupy a separate compartment with walls or partitions and a door enclosing the fixture to ensure privacy exception to toilet rooms located in a child in child D daycare facilities and containing two or more water closets shall be permitted
005to have one water closet without an enclosing compartment the pentier states that we propose um half walls with half doors and no doors for preschool in the toilet rooms within the classrooms we specifically are requesting relief from the requirement for full height walls and partition walls and doors within all toilet rooms in this Center we're Al also asking for relief from the requirement of placing the handwash sink within the toilet room a large sink is provided immediately outside of the toilet rooms where children's handwashing can be supervised by a teacher relief is also requested for placement of grab bars around the toilet the bars cannot be reached or used by our very young children um so section uh 12 10.3.1 each water closet utilized by the public employee shall occupy a separate compartment within the
006walls of partitions and a door enclosing the fixture to ensure privacy uh water closet compartments uh wait exception two toilet rooms located in child daycare facilities and containing two or more water closets shall be permitted to have one water closet without an enclosing compartment um for the uh laboratory request public Laboratories and employe public public toilet rooms the required laboratory shall be located in the same room as the required water closet um then the the exception um the section that addresses the um grab bars at water is uh section 69.4 point2 at water closets primarily for children children's use complying with Section 60411 grab bar shall be installed in a horizontal position 8 18 in minimum and 27 in maximum above the floor measured to the top of the gripping surface vertical grab bar shall
007be mounted to the bottom of the bar located between 21 in and maximum minimum and 30 in maximum above the floor with the center line of the bar located between 34 in a minimum 36 in maximum from the rear wall um this uh request doesn't meet the requirements for approval um and the code clearly states the requirements for the restrooms the grab bars and the lab okay right thank you so can the applicant just state your name and present your case briefly um yes can you hear me yes okay thank you uh my name is Gretchen Preston and I'm the owner and um operator of Gretchen's House Child Care Centers here in Arbor have been for 42 years um I I have redesigned re renovated many many um buildings for child care use over the
008my time and what we're asking for here are things that already exist in our other centers and as I have sent you some pictures of other centers in other parts of the country um it's unfortunate that our building codes don't usually um speak to very very young children um it's a frustration that I have and uh my teachers have when they're dealing with these very young children in their um their needs I want to make sure I'm understanding you correctly Mike um so what we're asking for is relief from Full height walls but as I read the code looks like we don't have to have full height they have to be 48 in is that true correct I don't recall a specific height for the walls well I was reading in and you know you're
009much more well versed in this than I am but it says specifically um 48 in in one of the sections so if that is the height that we need to have we can make that work because teachers can see over that um height wall um that would be fine um I had it a minute ago walls it's page um I think a minimum um a height of not less than 4T 12 10.2.2 I think that just refers to the height where a nonporous surface needs to be used Jason Jo s is what talking yeah a height not less than 4 feet above the floor except for the structural elements materials used in such walls um yeah so this is that that part is just talking about where the nonporous surfaces are required okay um so
010H basically um when we have little children with us all day these are children four years old and under many of you have experience with very young children um the toilets that we use are 10 in off the floor 10 in so it's not very tall uh they can easily use those toilets themselves which is one of the things that we're trying to help them do obviously is become self-sufficient um and but our te they often need help so we need to have a toilet facility that teachers can easily help these children with and if they can't see into the toilet room it becomes a safety concern for us um also we have um large Troth sinks outside each of our um bathrooms and all of our rooms and we do that on purpose because
011um another part of our our learning at this age is how to wash your hands and we want to make sure that children do wash their hands and it's much easier for us to help them when it's right outside the bathroom and there's um a larger sink and more room for everyone to work I guess those are the main things that we're asking for um in the preschool room um we don't like to have a door we just like to have an entry into the bathroom because uh children have Freer access to toilets and they often need that quickly at that age in the infant todler rooms we have one toilet and a changing table that has a sink attached to it as you can see um so at this age very few children are
012actually using the toilet we wish otherwise but that's the nature of uh Toddlers and certainly infants can't even stand at the sink we we hold the children up to the sink that is there uh where we do the diaper changes for them to wash their hands does that um give you a little more insight into how we work with these young children in these toilet rooms any questions from the board so uh I just want to like just to clarify there are three bathrooms in this facility that are for child use only that's correct okay and you have a bathrooms the required bathrooms for adults and other locations oh yes okay and Ada accessible yes okay and the variance that's requested is actually for four things that there be no grab bars in any of
013the those toilets that there be no toilet compartments where there's more than one toilet that there are no Laboratories within the toilet rooms and that the inclosure walls around the bathroom enclosures be 42 in high and preferably without doors um we do put doors in the infanti rooms because it's a safety issue for those children we don't want them in there uh unless they're being supervised okay because but in thee in the preschool no you're the because the the plans that show I think it's 109 and 113 don't show any doors under the variance requested um well there would be a door in the infant title rooms there would be a door that's an error on our part okay so the proposal then would be in the under the variance required diagrams there would be
014a door on 113 and also on 108 um yes the um so many numbers to keep yes 113 and 108 that's correct okay and then one more clarifica clarification question so again under the 108 I guess it's 109 I'm sorry it's yeah I'm having a little trouble here too yeah me too 113 113 is a toddler room and would have a door on it yes that's correct 109 is a toddler room and would have a door on it yes that's correct okay so for those two rooms as well you're showing a diaper changing station in there yes that's right but it has a sink it does so it is a special unit that comes with a sink so that sink could suffice as a handwashing station couldn't it and it does oh it does it
015does yes okay so the the request for not having a laboratory in these B directly inside these bathrooms doesn't apply to those two particular toddler rooms as as long as that sink is is meeting the requirement that um M's department is asking for yes that's right okay and this is just a small detail but there is there any reason why that counter doesn't go all the way to the wall oh it can um that we buy a pre-made um station it it comes from a manufacturer and so that particular wall is just a little bit longer okay to meet the um 5 foot circle can you speak more about the grab bars it seems like the building Department's commentary just like about the grab bars being lower and being vertical bars so um I mean
016you can have grab bars that comply you not going used right I mean our our children need help in the using the toilet and they don't use the grab bars um I have them in a couple of my spaces and they're never used um I don't know what to say except that they're never used the toilets are so low that the children don't don't need them that may be the case but I I think the Ada requires grab bars in all toilet rooms in all toilet rooms including ages starting as young as three they're at different heights than normal ADA requirements but um I'm pretty sure that those are required even for very small children would they be required for children under the age of three it doesn't mention under the ages of three so
017by default I would say not but well we do some things that you know we don't use sometimes because it does meet the um requirement of the law um the law isn't perfect so if we cannot put them in the infant rooms that would be fine and then if we need to put them for the preschoolers we can put them there could you whether or not they use them could you what are the so what are the age groups for these these bathrooms because they're just labeled as either preschool or toddler sure children 2 years and 9 months are in the infant and toddler rooms 2 years 9 months and younger so 3 months to 2 years 9 months in those rooms and then in the preschool room um it would be children 2 years
0189 months up to age four and the reason I'm using those that age um specification is that the licensing rules change for ratios and uh group size at that age and for the preschool bathroom you need two toilets because of the population count that's right okay the my licensing requirements are one toilet for every 15 children um or two for every um for every 10 one more for every 10 after that it's unfortunate that licensing rules um child care licensing rules don't always agree with um some of the building code which I'm sure you're used to that happening in lots of situations um so for example with the children 2 years 9 months and younger I'm required to have 100% visual supervision at all times so you can see why having full walls anywhere in
019that room are a problem for me it's it's a real safety hazard so for the building department question uh how do they handle ventilation if the walls aren't full height I think the walls should be full height um according to code so I don't know how it would be addressed if you don't have um a full height wall so if the walls are full height then you would have to have a teacher go into the bathroom and accompany each child that uses the washroom because you need supervision 247 or the whole time absolutely it could be a glass partition some of you see through but you can't you know can't does contain the ventilation we do have um ceiling fans above all um child bathrooms of all those changing stations and the preschool toilet rooms
020have a vent above them works great Okay so we've not seen a variance like this before so I'm not very familiar with all the requirements and how people get other people get around it as far as is it a staffing issue is it a building code issue you know how is it managed I I guess one of my questions would be what is the intent um of the building code it talks about privacy um quite frequently throughout but for these very young children um privacy is not their issue so I I believe that that's why the code states that if you have two in a room there's one able to not be enclosed I think that the code's written specifically for those situations and it starts that with board child daycare facilities you can see
021on um some of the pictures that I sent you um What Child Care Centers have traditionally done is they'll put a even and one of them is from one of my own centers um there's a a wall between two toilets sometimes it's a half wall um sometimes it's a full wall so that between the toilets there's there's privacy but the teachers can see any other questions or comments from staff or I mean would it would it be acceptable to put glass above the let's say the 48 in line on the walls to to achieve more of an enclosure a little more privacy but still maintain the visual um connect I'm concerned about U being able to hear as well especially with these children under the age of 2 years 9 months you know we having
022it's like having a closet in a room that that you know it it's worrisome that's why we don't have large closets in rooms because children you know they're smart and we we don't want a child to get into a space that we can't see um it's it's very worrisome and if we take a teacher away from the group for one child now we have one teacher left with seven children and I'm not allowed to do that I have I have to have the visual and the ability to um supervise with the two teachers in those toddler rooms so is this is this something that could be is this something that could be address addressed through Staffing and not alterations to the building code could you say more about that Mike I'm just saying is it
023is it possible if there was another P another adult in that room that then it would be reasonable to have somebody watching the students and any um child that might be in the restroom well now we're talking about um labor costs and I you all have heard Ed nauseum the cost of um Early Childhood programs and I guess you know I I understand the reason for most all of the building codes that that we adhere to this particular one if it's for the purpose of privacy it doesn't that is not something that children under the age of four need they have a greater need for safety and our supervision I I I think that's where I'm getting stuck here you know privacy is not an issue with these little ones um the law state so
024explicitly we have to have 100% uh supervision Sight and Sound at all times does a commentary talk to that at all probably not for children I mean it it not really um other than you know just stating that when the you know just going over why when there's two that having the one without the um enclosure allows for um you know that Assistance or whatever is required in that area other comments questions if the grab bar is an adaa isue are building very free issue I don't know how we would give a variance for that I mean that was beyond our our jurisdiction for that the gra bars are something that don't affect our supervision so you know if we need to put them in we'll put them in if they don't get used then
025I guess they don't get used um I'm much more concerned about the supervision issues here and it's interesting that other bathrooms that I see and other places and in my own centers um don't have you know full height walls around them so I I guess I'm just confused if something changed in the in the building code um and why the licensing doesn't agree with the the building that happens all the time no they don't coordinate yeah you need to submit a code request change to the IC for certain age groups who else has to go and approve your facility just curious I mean is there an inspection by another organization that then allows you to accept children I think everybody except the president or the mayor come into our facility to give us approval um
026we have to have State Fire inspectors um we have State Licensing um Consultants that come through there's a health and environmental people that come through let's see who else have I missed we are inspected um thoroughly the environmental health um and people have never said a thing about our the bathrooms that we have that are half walls um at this point so so if these are going to have doors on them what kind of doors are you talking about you be a partial height door or what kind of door are you're talking like a gate it's like a gate yes that's that's right it's a half height it would be the same height as the wall it's a gate that has a latch that um children can't open and believe me we've had to look
027for those an Iber has nothing but the smartest children the swinger s in or swing out usually they swing out because of the Ada and what is the wall material you're kind of showing is a blue is that like a tile or is that a paneling or what is that material it's nonforest um we've used different sorts of materials and we can use whatever um would be required drywall is what we have in many of them um some um I have um shiplap um or like paneling um on the outside because it's attractive uh the inside is usually um either tile or um drywall you can see in the one um um well actually two of the photos have dry wall in these toilet rooms from actual bathrooms the brown that's a really good question
028um that's probably a paneling I'm trying to remember that Center's been around a while the plumbing closure requires nonporous same kind of thing so the shift like would be a question there depending on the Finish but it's a laminate or something like that poent could be non pores you're not asking very branch on that so whatever it is will comply with code no I also think that very few child care centers are being built or renovated so that you know it's not something that you come across all the time this is an existing facility being renovated or is this all new what is this all new or renov This was um summerh Hill school and then 20 years ago then it was an office building and now I'm re renovating it back for child use
029okay so a change in use there on remaining years education to child care's business is that [Music] okay your not changing news if it's business to business or than working on a motion about it's a challenging one it doesn't fit neatly into the template into the template yeah um then maybe two motions one from the taller room and one not t room or they all come out one hope to avoid that oh yeah so that we didn't have to hand in a epic twice poem okay um it would appear that the um the bars would be acceptable you've got doors in the older room but not the younger room and the sinks outside inside with the toddler in the changing room you do have sinks inside which might fly well more discuss I guess you
030discuss on a board is this true before you finish your motion I mean I can float a motion and see how it if it passes muster um okay uh I mov that in the case of BBA 25-9 the appeal of the building officials decision that the 2015 Manchester Road um is granted only partial relief from section p1210 3.1 40532 of the 2021 Michigan plumbing code and 11092 exception 7 of the 2015 Michigan building code as follows the 2015 Michigan building code in section Acquired and has been correctly interpreted by the building official the 2021 Michigan building code section p1210 3.1 water and 45.3 point2 the requirement for water closet enclosures and a laboratory within the toilet room does apply to the children's area toilet rooms at TW 2015 Manchester Road the motion includes the following
031clarifications and stipulations the the toilets shall include grab bars as required and advised by the Ada wash sinks shall be inside toilets it is acceptable to combine hand wash sinks with diaper changing sinks as Allowed by the Michigan daycare center regulations it is acceptable to have low enclosure walls to meet 48 in high heights to meet plumbing code Provisions for finishes toilet room doors may be 48 in high but are required and any toilet room with two or more toilets shall have only one unenclosed toilets toilet at other locations privacy partitions may be 48 8 in high and without doors so far of your Provisions require the grab bars as part of granting something else is that the intent or just not the intent the intent is to keep the grab bars in the intent
032is to keep the sinks inside the toilet room enclosures the intent is to interpret the code that a the enclosure walls can be low so not 42 in 48 in so that they meet the finished requirements and in places where the there more than one toilet um the one that should be completely enclosed is essentially only partially enclosed but still has some form of privacy so we're allow basically we're gring a VAR we allowing 48 in high walls this is the intent of it that's the that's what they're gaining out of the VAR is the height of the partition wall and uh en closure walls and Gates can be yes I read I read the intent of the code that the more important things to make sure that there are clean non-absorbent finishes up to
03348 inches not all the way to the ceiling and I mean the ventilation part of it is if they can if they can figure that Performance Based yeah they can figure that out yeah mhm any questions about the Varan narrative WR um is there any clarification needed between the types of restrooms like where they're located so that we're specific to I I just don't if if we write it openly enough I don't want it to apply to the entire building so just for these four rooms for room so so the motion is amended to pertain only to the toilet rooms used by children preschool and toddler or something like four years and younger four years and younger okay no second and you have to written down Bob so we can turn that in the whole
034rule about the you want to finish writing that down before we vote's uh I probably have to rewrite this we do have a second yeah a second yeah we have a motion in a second so let me I just want to make sure I got this so the provision what's being added is the provisions apply only to the toilet rooms that serve children less than four years of age children under whatever you want to break it out to toddlers to two to two and nine months and then two and 10 months to four no we're not doing anything that's different for those two there's no change there's no difference for them the applicant is out there somewhere is how how old are the kids in your daycare do they go up Beyond age four no
035no Okay no Okay so the provisions apply only to the toilet rooms that serve children underage for four and under I think so we have four members present the pass is going to need a vote at least three positive votes those in favor say I I those against it none any abstaining motion passes um might I have clarification on one item sure um my print out says page 19 but the preschool uh bathroom the bathroom that has two toilets in it mhm um as shown um from our um architect and designer shows a panel uh between the two toilets is that acceptable is is Ash it's drawn there does that work what page is that page 19 there this one this one it's drawing 19 the one that says as submitted yes that's the one
036um the the intent of the motion was that the toilet the the the toilet that has the door on it that partition would be 48 in is high and would would not necessar would not need a door okay yeah that was the clarification I wanted to get thank you so as it's shown there can be 48 High just like the walls um outside correct but with the idea that you'd still have a door to the overall enclosure oh yes oh okay we can do that so you you would like to see that in the preschool as well adore all of them in all of them comp okay yeah okay so they submit revised plans for this stuff then Mike is that what you going want to see have a revised permit set yeah it'll need
037to yeah revisions were requested on the initial plan review so then need to submit them uh with the approval so Mike they just submitted some plans um but that did not have um the 48 inch high walls because before today's meeting um they were not approved so I will ask the architect to submit them as you have um agreed today okay thank you so much okay thank you next item on the agenda is old business any old business to cover you said the previous experiances uh one's not coming back for the uh washer dryer yeah the washer dryer is not coming back and I'm working with the contractor um on the two exits and erress windows from last month's meeting okay any business new business anything can we have a motion to adjourn I move
038to adjourn second those in favor I IJ that 27