001e e e I call to order the regular building board of appeals meeting for February 20th 2025 have roll call roll call we uh Paul darling here Robert Hart here David arar absent Kevin Cox here Hugh Flack here staff Michael Lemieux here and Juliet Harvey here roll call has been taken okay thank you first item on the agenda after a roll call is public commentary General if we have any general commentary so we can close public commentary next item is the approve of the agenda can we have somebody make a motion to amend or approve the agenda so approve faor second okay those in favor I all right the agenda is passed me the next item of the agenda is the approval of minutes from the December 19th 2024 uh meeting is there any comments
002on those if not can we have a motion move to approve the minutes second those in favor I I minutes are approved next item on the agenda is appeals actions and shall cause hearing and um we have one appeal today so the process of we'll have the applicant uh come up we'll have the uh staff make a report or recommendation on the on the uh request that the comment the applicant can present their case and then uh the board can ask any questions they have you can stay up there and uh make sure you sign in when you're up there and then we'll make a motion staff um so the request is relief from uh section 130.3 of the 2015 Michigan building code um the property at 200 North State it's a multif family building
003an R2 uh it was built in 1930 a permit was issued on 10824 uh for work described as interior renovation only no changes to exterior doors or Windows footprint of building stays the same with minor changes to Interior layout at the plan review it was noted that the basement windows uh do not meet the man the standard for emergency escape and rescue openings the plan shows six bedrooms being added to the basement which is currently indicated as storage and laundry the plan was required to be revised because the windows on the plan exceed the 44 in maximum uh required height from the floor in in section 130.3 um the applicant has indicated that they believe the true intent of the code has been misinterpreted and the landing and step should be accepted at this location
004staff recommends this application be denied it doesn't meet the standards for approval um the code hasn't has not been misin the provisions of the code do apply and the proposed condition is less safe than the minimum requirements of section 103.3 of the Michigan building code uh section states that the maximum height from floor emergency escape and rescue openings shall have the bottom of the clear opening not greater than 44 in measured from the floor the petitioner states that section 130.3 specifies the the bottom of a clear opening must not be more than 44 in above the floor while the floor while the term floor is undefined in the code it is commonly understood to include any walking surface intended for regular use such as Landings which is an integral uh to the EG system section
0051010.6 of the Michigan building code recognizing Landings as critical walking surface underscoring their functional equivalents to floors uh for safety and accessibility the intent of section 130.3 is to ensure emergency escape and rescue openings are accessible measure measuring from Landings fulfills this purpose by providing a safe stable platform while adhering to the code's objectives moreover the presidents from the city of Van Arbor other jurisdictions and practical design fle flexibility support um interpreting Landings as the floor in compliance with Section 103.3 while uh I'll Steph um thinks that while The Landings and floors are not defined in the code Landing is specified when it is intended when it is the intent of the code is to allow such configuration and in each instance uh specifics about the design requirements are provided uh Landing is mentioned in
006the definition of Stairway um we have the definition of Stairway um two examples of when Landings are um described in the code um 101.1 point6 uh 10 111.6 um in both of these situations the minimum dimensions of the landing is is um specified uh there's nowhere in the code that it is stated the landing is acceptable at the required emergency escape and rescue opening because this is absent there's also no specifications given to the size and conf configuration of such a Landing um uh as far as the terms not being defined um where terms uh through method authorized by this section such terms shall have ordinarily accepted meanings such as the context implies um from the Webster dictionary um Landing is a level part of a staircase as at the end of a flight of
007stairs and then a floor is defined as a level base of a room based on the definitions and the code sections provided a landing in a floor not interchangeable terms furthermore it is not commonly understood that a floor is any walking surface including a landing and the two terms have different applications and meanings the applicant States while 104.1 grants The Authority having jurisdiction in code interpretation this Authority should align with the mbc's intent to prioritize safety and practicality I respectfully request the building department to reconsider lerate stance on the permit of the use of Landings uh as floor for compliance with the 44 in requirement of section 103.3 ensuring alignment with the code's text intent and purpose while preserving the historic Integrity of the property um what section 104.1 of the code um also States
008is that the building official is authorized to direct and enforce the provisions of this code the building official sh have have the authority to render interpretations of the code and adopt policies and procedures in order to clarify the application of its Provisions such interpretations policies and procedures shall be in compliance with the intent and purpose of this code such policies and procedures shall have the effect shall not have the effect of waving requirements specifically provided for in this code uh while the applicant is focused on the authority of the building official uh to render interpretations the building officials authorized to direct enforce the provisions of the code such policies and procedures um shall have shall not have the effect of wavering requirements specifically provided for in the code um the maximum 44 in height to
009floor is a provision provided in the code uh the petitioners focused on one element of the required emergency escape AP and rescue opening that Focus has been on the resident who will be sleeping in that space the component that has not been mentioned is the rescue component in a rescue situation an emergency responder would enter with the expectation that the opening meets the specifications of both the 2015 MBC and the 2015 international fire code uh which in section 1030 mirrors the language of the 2015 MBC um stating the maximum height from the floor emergency escape and rescue openings shall have the bottom of the clear opening not greater than 44 in measured from the floor the configuration proposed by the applicant is unsafe as the expectation of anyone using the emergency escape and rescue opening
010is that they'd be entering onto a floor as there's no mention of a landing in the building or fire cat the proposed configuration would create an unsafe situation in eer if emergency personnel must enter an attempt a rescue the configuration would not meet the expectations of a code compliant building thank you y so the asking can come up and present your case um and then state if you're something your your applicant talks about you're asking for a uh based on the the uh interpretation of the code it sounds like what you're asking for S you have three ways you can ask for variance interpretation of the codes not being properly met you providing something equally good or better or the code doesn't apply so if you sounds like you're applica you're applying for one that's
011based of the intent or the interpretation of the code is what you're yes the interpretation of the code okay so I'm herec Scott Clawson I'm here 200 North State application um I'm here because I believe the code with regards to the egress window at section 130.3 has been Mis interpreted um that allows the seal height of the window has to be 44 in from the floor and as Mike said floor is not defined in the code book the definition of floor um but they do have floor area defined in there and the floor area grows the floor area within the inside Perimeter the exterior walls of the building under consideration exclusives of vent shafts courts without deduction for corridors stairways ramps closets thickness of interior walls columns or other features it goes on a little
012bit more but it's basically saying the floor areas within the exterior walls considered the floor area and then it also defines floor area net which the is the actual occupied area not including unoccupied accessories such as corridors stairways ramps toilets mechanical rooms and closets um the city itself in its ordinance uh chapter 105 housing actually allows for a maximum sill height of 54 in above the floor if the existing sill height is greater than 54 in above the floor a platform structure or piece of furniture not including a shelf permanently fixed to the structure will be acceptable provided that it has a minimum depth of 12 in a minimum width of 20 in and has a maximum of 18 in above the floor um I think we're getting hung up on Landing which is also
013not defined in the code most people think of Landings as part of stairways um but we are using it we're basically using an elevated area of the floor to get us to our 44 in to meet the erass um maximum height um this particular one is in a historic building so we can't make alterations to the windows it is a rehabilitation a remodel it's all interior work um we're not changing the windows um we're not allowed to so um so like I said I think we're getting hung up on a floor height um being in a email that was sent from Mike to me well from actually an Annie Wang it says that um it says the measurement of the 44 in height is required to be from the floor elevation of the overall floor
014plate so not intermittent elevated Landings okay and so we get more okay what's that keep going I thought you're right yeah so we were talking about basically when we were having discussions about this before we got to this point they're basically saying that the floor all has to be one level and we know in the 70s and stuff houses had multiple levels today I'm sure there's plenty of houses that have Step Up step UPS in area so I don't think you can call that uh that floor plate like the the point that you measure from so let me see if I I mean Mike read what what I had turned in um but but that's that the city has allowed this um we have done steps before in front of Windows we have done elevated
015floors in front of windows before this is the first time that I've come across where this has got kind of kicked back so that's why we're here asking for I guess the variance or the interpretation of the code so I feel like I'm forgetting something but oh and this is this is one that we did this summer I can pass it around to you if you want but this egress window is actually a skylight which is allowed but we actually have a built-in like bookcase so that you can get up to it because it was above the 44 in and this was approved so I guess that's it okay thank you the board have questions for the applicant could you elaborate on the layout of the plan that you've got here there are six bedrooms
016yes and then there's a living room dining room living room's got a door on it the dining room's got doors on it and there's a full bath attached to it is this meant to be possibly another bedroom a living space no there's six six bedrooms um the basement currently was one apartment uh a portion of it was already an apartment and then the other part was storage and then like uh mechanical area so that's my question is the full basement in the new plan is that considered an apartment or yeah that'll just be one apartment and it has two exits yeah is there I mean I have to ask is there a reason why the living room dining room area has a bath area has a bathtub or a shower I think it's because all
017the B each um bedroom has its own bathroom there and this is just a like a general one for anybody to use sure okay and then could you what is the proposed depth for the for the Step Up um I think the Step Up only needs uh 7 and 3/4 no no I mean from the window back well we were drawn we were basically submitting like a 3X3 um oh so it's 3 feet yeah okay is it made out of wood yeah and it's permanently attached so it's it's it'll be covered with the same flooring and and everything so when you're standing in the platform you don't have the required Headroom though you don't have 68 headro or 66 headro when you're on the platform you have to be crouching over no we have enough
018head room what's the ceiling height in that area it's like8 6 to the top of the window and you're coming up how far 1 fo2 okay um I guess I don't know specifically but I do know that there's 6 yeah [Applause] yeah like the windows aren't changing so the height of the windows is the same and the bottom height of the window would be the same it says that the windows are you're reworking them to meet the eess requirements yeah that was they're not being reworked that was actually they can't be reworked so there was actually a revision after the plan that you're looking at but the windows are not being reworked so the same the same size but they're still they were casement before and they new casement their casement now yes so you're
019able to if you go through the step and out the window you're in the window well which you would then not have to climb or you wouldn't need any assistance in getting out of the window well to escape the building correct that's right at grade the window um yes yep it's right at grade oh okay so if the windows so what are the windows right now if because they have to meet a particular standard to function as an egress window mhm are they casements yes so they're casements and they meet the opening WID and height that's required for an eess window yes so is there a reason why there was a note that they were going to be reworked um I don't know the architect put that in there originally but we took it out
020okay um there are a couple windows that are not the the same um some of those are historic Windows some are replacement windows and there's some also wood casement windows in there also so it's there's a a variance of different kind of Windows is there is there a uh rule or um code to how many inches the window has to be off the ground for obstructions it's a maximum 44 no outside cuz if this is grade level and that's why like window wells are made because I'm pretty sure there's a 6 in or an 8 in um like a water tightness thing or something exactly like it's off and so if the window swings out and there's been it gets blocked by debris dust blah blah blah like is it allowed to be at grade
021like that like how there's I mean and I'm just going by their lines and their levels that they have here on the drawing you know I just don't know if there was it's a required thickness I don't know that there's a required as it opens all the way yeah so there's when you talk about like a window while opening there a minimum Dimension the size of that to ensure that the window can open I don't think it presses that the the way it's set up right now the window there's a brick sill yeah and the grade is about six inches below the top of the brick sill okay so when the window opens up it's the bottom of the window is about 6 or 8 in above perfect great that right yep yeah and if
022it was if they were down I mean we would be if you can do a window well and you can have a if it's deeper than 42 in you can have a ladder to get out of it right so that can even be you know it seems like the platform in front of the window is is is a good option in the I mean rental housing uses it or allows it all the time so the historic district is not allowing you to replace the casement window as a historic wood window just dropping making it instead of uh however tall it is right now 3 foot4 another so so we did not put in an application to do that but I have talked to Jill about those windows prior because it took a long time because
023some of them were in pretty bad shape and they got replaced a lot of them got replaced like uh several maybe even 10 years ago um and it was a it took two years to get it approved just that that part they don't like obvious L to change the original windows that are in there but these windows are only 10 years old these windows are 10 years no these are the well actually some of them are yeah some of them are only 10 and then some of them are the original or actually they're not they're not original but they were placed somewhere maybe in the ' 50s or MH um you can just tell by how they're um attached in the building so I I mean I know the variance is for the step up
024but do the windows comply as egress windows in their current state because if they don't then this this kind of a mood discussion I mean what use is it to have a step up if you can't get out the window yeah well windows will comply yeah the well you just said they will first you said they' be work then you said they're not being revered now you said they will so do they I just want to make sure that we're just we're just dealing with the platform issue we're just dealing with the platform issue that's it I would like to add the that this is a change of use that the that's my next question for you the the basement is not currently used as for for this these areas these areas aren't used for
025sleeping rooms currently some of them were though but you're adding right that aren't currently there was only one apartment down there that took up a third of the basement now we're using the whole basement okay so actually I had some questions for the city so if this is a change of use what did they have to do in terms of life safety measures to make this kosher that I don't I didn't look into the entire plan I just looked at the aspect of the that they were requesting relief from um as far as the change of use uh it went through review and this nothing the other things that were indicated were taken care of with the exception of this as I understand yes so does that mean that the that space doesn't have to
026be sprinklered we are sprinkler in the building oh you're sprinkling the building yes we are oh including the basement including the basement yes the whole building is good and suppressed okay I'm glad you mentioned that because if that's the case why do they have to even have erress Windows because doesn't the code allow them if there are two means of ESS and then see I see two stairs and the building is sprinklered why do they have to have ESS windows in the basement I think maybe the basement still does I don't it's the one section I'd have to look yeah there's I i' know the there's the there's an exception that you're talking about I just don't know the full implication but yes you're with two exits in it being sprinkler actually with two ex
027being sprinkled we wouldn't have to have a erress window but I think when I was looking through the code I just saw where the basement sleeping rooms sleeping dwellings are required to have um window but I'm not I'm not 100% sure cuz I was just kind of you're supposed to you're if you don't have to means of egress out of a building out of an area you have to have a means of egress in each sleeping room and that's what makes it a liable rentable usable bedroom but if you have two means of egress in the basement and it's suppressed I I really do think you're you you don't have to have egress windows I'm so it's all really a point that's that's the Avenue that I would need to verify I think you need
028to cuz if that's the case then all of this is not then they would have to change yeah they would now is that back so I guess more questions here what are these stairwells do they go out to the outside or do they go to the inside uh out out of the back and the front I I just haven't seen the house so so it goes up to a landing and it goes outside but it's a Stairway it's a shared stairway that goes each apartment level y each level is its own apartment or is no there's there's uh four units on each of the other floors so there were already there were already 13 apartments in this building okay and there's still 13 apartments in this building so but the basement is expanding 13 apartments
029are 13 total sleeping rooms 13 Apartments wow so upstairs each one of those rooms are pretty much much counted almost like a an individual apartment yeah each one so there's four units on each floor yep yeah so these people will not be able to get into that area that's not like a general shared kitchen right it's a tone unit in the basement yes I just don't um I think I think we need to look up that code to make sure right I think you yeah you just verified um I just really think to the point this would be supplemental erress only wouldn't have to have the facil he requirement it sounds like they no they wouldn't have to they wouldn't have to put in those platforms and the the whole emergency exit and refuge uh
030Clause is kind of doesn't really apply since they're sprink wearing the entire building and I assume that also includes you'll have smoke detection as a fire alarm yeah system yeah since it has a common hallway each room each sleeping room has to have a horn strobe there's an alarm system a monitored alarm system and then obviously the every room sprinkled and you're working on the rest of the building to the rest of the apartments in the building are being ring down or just the basement level no we're we're remodeling the whole place so updating everything Electrical Plumbing Heating okay so we make a motion do we table it what decide want to do I'm not even sure VAR yeah [Music] um is the city satisfy this has been submitted for plan pering stage not without
031a review yeah yeah okay I would then I would say table it review it and then if you have to come back come back but right now I I would say table it review it and then come back if you have to okay need a motion write down write this motion down WR this motion WR down uh motion to table until further review right do we get additional information or until we get additional information to allow the city to that's why we got write down first motion to the table for further review of [Applause] code so City can uh further code with regard to sprinkled basement just start with that thank you all right I'll give it a shot uh then in the case of BBA 2501 the appeal of the board officials decision that
032the motion be tabled so that the city can further review code with regard to add added sprinkler system and fire alarms in the basement okay any other comments uh I have a quick question on that do they have to bring it back here when they get the information or they can can they if they don't need a variance they would need to bring it back just find know if they're not coming back if they need a variance we'll have to get back on the agenda do we need to add that in or is it is that implicit in the tabling that's implicit because they got to review it and then okay understanding that they might not have to bring it back at all um but that's that's my understanding okay you have a second on
033the motion a second those in favor to table it I I those oppos none motion is uh T okay thank you no other new appeals for today um next item the agenda is old business nothing listen for old business additional new business anything from St no there been any report on the plumbing variance we taed from meetings ago is there any more action on that there's been no communication from the um plumbing contractor okay have a motion to adjourn motion to adjourn second those in favor I I we adjourned at 205 [Applause]