001e e e call to order the regular building board of appeals for December 19th 2024 is that an echo in that from it's from up there no I'm only Kidd she's got the amp on reverberate all right we can uh call to order or a roll call yeah roll call okay uh board member Paul darling here board member Robert Hart here board member Hugh Flack here board member Kevin Cox board member David arar uh staff Mike Lemieux present and uh M Redmond present and Juliet Harvey present okay we have a quum of three so that means we to have a majority we need to have two positive votes pass is that correct okay the first item on the agenda is approval of the minutes from the October 17th meeting any comments on those no motion
002motion to approve second those in favor I I minutes are passed the next item on the agenda is appeals actions and show calls hearing we have one appeal today and it's at U BBA 24007 7 appeal at 1201 Island Drive 202 in Michigan so if the applicant is here you can come up and state your name and sign in and I'll tell you a little bit about the process hi myot har okay um so what we'll have is we'll have the staff make his report of the summary and then uh you can present your case or your summary pre summary what you're asking for and then uh the staff will see you have any rebot of that or any clarification of that then the board will ask you questions and then we'll make a motion
003and um V up or down for the process so okay F yeah uh so the property at 1201 Island Drive it's a multif family building it's an R2 uh the building was constructed in 1964 uh recently a plumbing permit was applied for as a residential project um this was denied because it was a wrong work class in a commercial plumbing permit was applied for and issued for work described as a laundry box install uh at the application of this permit it was indicated this a commercial application and the contractor should have proceeded using Code requirements for this building type R2 the plumbing inspector failed the rough inspection because it did not meet the minimum standards of the applicable code which is the 2021 Michigan plumbing code a code compliant alternative was offered to the contractor
004which was to remove the stand pipe and drain the uh washer into a laundry sink uh information um on what fixtures were connected to this line on the lower floors was requested but not provided as of 1213 2014 staff recommends this application be denied as it doesn't meet the standards for approval uh building and residential codes are standards established for specific building types the residential code only applies to R3 single family duplexes and Tow houses which is clearly stated in the 2015 Michigan residential code 121 Island Drive is R is not R3 per the building code it's not single family residence a duplex or a townhouse therefore the 2015 Michigan MRC um is not intended to be applied to this building uh 121 Island Drive must meet the provisions of the uh MBC chapter 29
005which directs us to the Michigan plumbing code uh the appeal for this application um of section uh p3004 in a commercial building in place of the 2021 Michigan plumbing code sections 46.2 no information was provided on the impact on the rest of the plumbing system the applicant also indicated the association has approved the installation of washers and dryers which if this appeal is approved could have compounded negative effects on the Plumbing Systems capability to function as necessary and safe in a sanitary manner um the MBC and uh MPC provide specific prescriptive measures based on the considerations for all of the buildings types uh residential buildings um like 121 Island driver classified R2 if the intent of the code were to allow the MRC requirements to be applied it would be the same requirement in both
006codes also if the intent of the code was to treat R2 differently than other usages in the Michigan plumbing code there would be an exception listed identifying our two buildings uh the recommendation for denial is for several reasons 121 uh Island Drive Unit 202 is properly classified as R2 the building department has required the proper permit work class for commercial building the plumbing inspector evaluated the project using the appropriate code for an R2 building finally there is nothing provided that demonstrates the impact of this installation on the plumbing system as a whole or best as an assumption this will function properly for Unit 202 and no consideration for potential impacts on the other units Downstream in this building okay thank you so you can State your case of ask for yeah you go ahead you
007we ask for is you state if if you're the code doesn't apply if you're providing something better than the code you know those are the provisions that we're gr variance for okay it well so yeah it was so I well like you know I guess you know I was like well you know I'm well confused about it was well this you know what process and I'll be honest um when I I to talk to Larry craft while while the plumbing inspector you know he's the one that actually mentioned you you know you know you know I should you know actually possibly you know go to the appeals committee because know well you know here's the case well the HOA you know is approving a well a you know certain you know Appliance you know you
008know it is not a standard R residential like normal washing machine like you know it is actually ventless you know you know what you know well duck lless you know you know what is you know high energy or well no low low energy and you know high efficiency you know actually the consumption of the W water and the you know the soap you know and will the will elect as is you know low it you know I mean it takes you know hours for just you a small loow to be done it it well well you know is only two well well the one one in the um client well that is I'm going to be going is you know only two two well 2.4 cubic you know feet you know it is small yeah
009well well you know and if you've you know seen these units like you know well they are small units you know it'll be going in a bathroom where where there's a you know I'm a you know I'm a sink right or there for you know I'm a brushing you know teeth well will and well and well this is what I explained over to lar craft and well know we we were in you know an agreement but like you know you know I understand like has to follow a code that it's up written um it it's just well the alternative that you know gave me was well there is a box in the wall well that we were going to discharge that W washing machine well then well that will you have to connect to a
010white 3in exu pipe well the you know well what well there isn't a 3-in exu pipe like diamond around the you know area you know I would you have to go like you know well downstairs you know lower what unit you know open up a walls and whatnot in order to get to that um where well well you know I get it um while accept well the alternative that was what was while while was that we while we while we take out the sink when we we put in like a nice laundry sink that has a nice unit faucet a b whatever well then well that wall washing machine will just will you know it would discharge you know into the you know sink you well you know the same you know me amount of
011w w water being you know dis charged it's not you well well you know it isn't increasing it's the know it's the almost same amount of wild water just you know it's going into a different you know stle you know drain and you know I am get well that I am one not actually fighting you actually with a plumbing code yeah you know I you you know you know I'm not looking for that you know I was you know under the impression that well we could actually get you know an deception maybe you know Well then well then if you know anybody else well I wanted to do the you know same thing well well all then we we make it you know known that you go through you know an appeals process we show
012up we explain our case and you know it'll be precedent for you know the rest of the well I get it you know I was you know kind of confused about what the process and until I read read the um while I'm well you know I'm a summary that you just read and you know when I was you know emailed a copy of that like you know well you know well I was you I me a few hours ago and I read it and I was like no I'm not actually fighting actual the plumbing coat you know I mean I'm not it's just you know a re real world exception that actually makes you know sense I mean you know you know act you know well that's what I'm you know going for and you
013know if well that is well not well this well well then well that's see well then I you know get it you know I mean it cost me 500 bucks and it's a learning experience and then yeah so that's it yeah okay thank you rebuttal this uh yeah I was just going to say that the uh through the code the board has three ways to approve anything that's presented here it's if it um the code was misinterpreted um what's being presented is better than or equal to the code um or that it doesn't apply um so so I would just say in this case it seems like you're trying to present that what what you have there is equal to or better than code well yes it's like it well you you know am I
014okay to talk to okay so sorry well it's like well you know it is you know you know you know I equal to it's it but it's what just I'm realistically well well well there's you know an appliance you know it's a box it's on the ground and I put well the laundry what discharge you actually behind it you you know for athetics like it's in order to keep you know things you know out of the way and you know you know that of you know having a hose you you know you know you know you know you know you know you know into you know I'm a sink you know you know if it's a house or you know a commercial building or anything else I mean I'm not going to you know Plum
015that in that way you know you know I mean I'm not it's just well like you have these small units you know and well the HOA is you know I'm An approved you well well you know a well you know a you know I'm certain what what unit you know when it is small you know well it well well it is you duckass I know well that you well the Fire Marshals I'm here like yeah you know it isn't using a lot of power it it's you know it's essentially just re rinsing some clothes and then like you know air drying it it's nothing it no it's not I get it it's just yeah you know I mean it's a real real world world like you know application well well that well the HOA well
016well they have you know obvious L well you know you know like also put some thought you know into his you know as a well and well that's why well they approved it you know and it's yeah you know I believe it's in with the attachment that I you know I'm a you know I'm a submitted as well that they're unable to go like over that you know a certain amount of cubic feet and whatnot okay board have questions yes first of all by way of disclosure I'm not related to hard pling so well darn I wish I could have got a vote off that um the are all the spaces in the condo complex the same that are being uh converted I mean were they like powder rooms or closets or what you it's
017a bathroom so most of the units you know are exactly the you know I'm same it's a small um what unit you know a kitchen you know a family room you a bedroom and a bathroom and well the bathroom is a little like you know oversized uh where the well there's this like you know a blank space next to the you know a sink where where where where where well they could put like a shelf actually for towels and well that's where we're putting it does that bathroom have a toilet in it yes is the toilet connected to that same Plumbing Arrangement yes so I guess where I got a little bit confused in the in the package was that the plumbing inspector was offering a code path to somehow make this work and it
018had to do it had to do with having a vacuum breake from the fixture to the drainage point but it also had a maximum calculation of dfus per 8 ft of drainage length so is that 8 ft within the uh run out in the in the space itself in other words if you look at the picture there's a there's a pipe that will obviously connect sink and the washing machine and is that pipe also connecting it's probably not connecting the toilet right it the toilet has its own stack um probably does because it's a 4 in you know I can you know answer okay it's on you know same you know a drains you know system it's what just you know how we were able to you know access it um while was we were
019connecting you know to with the N wall pipe mhm um well well which is you know it's a 2in actually pipe in there you know and in R residential you know code well this you know actually passes from what I was you know doing you know even a area tested that and he goes yes you know I get it but we're in you know I'm commercial because of you know they what dwellings well well and well well well well the only reason you know it isn't passing is because you know well the piple that we are connecting to while you know for I mean well for a commercial code wall wants it to be you know a 3 in instead of a 2 in yeah you know in order well for me to do that
020we we would you know have to go to the well unit below you know open up you you know their wall in order tax you know with that you know owners the actually pipe where where where where there is a like well a like 3 in actually pipe you know on near with the ground you know the first level well that we we what would you increase and bring it up well but well that's where well the problem all lies and we we would you know have to go you know into to another person's residence and and I'm you know and you know I'm going do that I'm a work work so well that's where the exception kind of came I was you know asking for but yes practical as far as no it's not
021you know it's a re real world like you know application is what you know I'm not well again you know you know I'm not expecting you know I actually will this become an issue with well the HOA you know you know you know I can even exlain it to what to the HOA that like you know everybody on a you know second floor unit now will will like you know have to file all the appeals you know claim we'll have to go through this you know process and that may or may not actually pass well while while well but we we're kind of be able to do this you while like you you know prior to doing all the work I would you know think rather than as we do the work if G she
022fails and then we go through the process if that makes sense so I well yes you know it is within that well I still I guess I I still don't understand what okay what the plumbing inspector was was offering up as an alternative solution because you've got a washing machine and you've got a sink and the total was three dfus and the toilet in that space doesn't contribute to the load is that true well that is you know correct on that you know on Branch line yes it does not no it does not well no to that you know a branch line so it yeah to that one you know a branch line that you know has the you know s okay so so that 8T length of drainage pipe that has to handle the
023dish the the washing machine and the sink is 2 in yes and it's allowed a maximum of six so I guess I'm not understanding why it's a problem because they're within the calculated amount for that length of 8 8T drainage pipe oh can I ask what can I answer that well you know well the only reason it's one not you know actually being allowed as well because you know it's in a book it's you know code like no that's a that's a big deal that's the Crux of the pro no no wait wait but just a sec because what I'm trying to get at is I I don't know that I UND I mean I I think the plumbing inspector offered a fix or a code path to make this work what I don't understand
024is why that's how he's how he's coming up with the calculation or the or the methodology because he's talking about an a pipe size of a minimum pipe size pipe run excuse me of 8 ft that can still be 2 in that still can carry the dfu requirements and why he's worried about what's happening on the floor below because it would seem to me that that's not coming into the calculation unless I'm re I mean may not really be understanding what what the issue is there I so I'm I'm I'm not I'm sort of putting that to building department yeah I don't there we go um so I don't from from what the inspector stated I think that his concern is additional unknowns of the plumbing system to to sort of put it in like
025a nutshell is we don't know what else is going into this line the only thing that was opened up was the stuff on the bathroom side of this one unit um so I think that that that is part of the inspector's concern so the way the drawing looks you've got the washing machine going into one service that hits the stack it looks like the sink is actually a separate grain that goes to the stack and then you got a to the toilet somewhere that gets to the stack and is there anybody up above you well no well there's only like you know two well well you know I SW you know to there craft you know it isn't you a concern well while while you know know act well the alternative where where he asked
026well hey why don't you dump it into the one the sink it's fine it it's you know well the know with the discharges until you know going you know to the you know same location the you know same stack it's via a you know a different you know method with which well which you is well well which you know I mean is me a box in a wall well which is you know like which is you know well it is like you pretty and like know hos in you don't want sink well wi is not pretty you know I get it well I mean the way I stood it is that by discharging into the sink there's a bigger vessel to hold the water to slow the drainage impact thing be could be could be
027have a drain in the bottom that you know I mean be closed well and we're not talking a vanity sink either we're talking no it be a laundry sink so it I mean there there are there multiple problems here here one is the code is the code I mean the building is classified as an R2 yeah commercial residential building and that's that's it there's nothing we there's nothing we can do to change that yes and that comes with its own code requirements um the other problem is there's nothing in for example even if we were to consider the unit that they're talk the appliance that they're the you're talking about putting in as being a special lowf flow thing there's nothing in the HOA letter that says you have to use this this type of
028Appliance and this one only just a sec okay and and you whatever happens here or in the future is going to set the stage for all the buildings and all the units going forward so I I guess where I'm going with this is if the if the plumbing inspector offered an alternative Arrangement forget the Aesthetics but just offered an a different Arrangement that would work and what's being requested is some kind of a schematic that just shows what the plumbing configuration is from the second floor to the first floor it seems like a way around all of this that isn't going to you know produce a lot of distress and heartburn okay throughout the the condominium and get you over the hump in terms of being able to get the work done according to code
029you you find a first FL you know wants a wash and dryer and St you go up open up the walls you understand what's going on in there they're probably all built the same you know yes well they are that's by the way excuse me that's the other thing that's assuming that what you're doing in that particular unit is replicated across the entire complex maybe may not same time well and well that's where I did well I disagree with what what you said about with the HOA and well they don't you know like you know have a set thing you know well they do and I like I have a document that said like you can you know only use you on this cubic feet is it in the back know you know you know
030you know you know so they not you know going you know I'm a you know I'm a rogue here they like you know I have their yeah yeah well their you approvals now you know obviously if we we were on you know like call the first you know my floor with all these I wouldn't even you'd be here cuz you know it would be approved it's just you know well so actually my impression of well this you PS meeting was well there well you know is well there is some you know exceptions in real real world you know um you know you applications you I'm not you know here to fight you know a plumbing code you know I'm a master plumber I love plumbing code and I will follow it it's just you know
031well while this real world you know application is you we well with you well well with you an appliance well that where were where were where well it didn't have you know anything to do with that you know code like it's you know I me a different Appliance it's well well you know I you know sure well there will be an exception you know in the plumbing code you in the future but you know at this point well there is not so yeah well well so yeah I understand you know I appreciate your time and you know if well there's a way to get that what done if not yeah you know I will rest my if that if if the grave box was called a utility sync you'd be all set because you're dumping
032in utility s right yeah yeah you know and it is like yeah you know I can't really you know say anything else you I think you guys are familiar with with what what I actually put in and well the HOA you know had a lot of you know thought in this well they re reached out to me like in you know some capacity and yeah you know I mean I actually you may have you know you well like overated like my boundaries with one you know one of them and all their approvals but you know well you know know well they're just looking to enhance you know for their properties where without you know having you know anything actually bulky and well that's what you know it is right now so if we you know
033if you could draw or have somebody draw at the risor diagram of the building existing is and how you were modifying it that would explain maybe answer the pl respons what's the floor going below what's impacting it you know that maybe your compliance path and to make sure that the appropriate code is what's being followed um yeah I don't know who could physically do that I mean you could draw up the right dver you you know familiar with how Plum downstairs and say Here's the you know yeah have an engineer do that for you and you know we could table this and then you submit that and that would give us what we need to to get a variance and well and you know I don't think we we could without like you opening up
034those walls cuz well then you're just you know what guessing and you find one person on the first floor it doesn't have to be the unit directly below you it could be Jason building here's well yeah I could you know find a rare remodel maybe they're you know doing a remodel and they have the walls open but anybody that's do a survey anybody's going to one on the first floor we want to survey it so we can get these second floor units yeah yeah and well that's something I would love to talk to the ho you know I well know they're going to you know have this you know happen again cuz they're remodeling they want to you know upgrade there's like 15 buildings here it applies like 15 different buildings the complex 15 unit
035all same I think it's only six right I was guessing cuz yeah you there's only know two stories so you know it's well not like it's a highrise you know I get it yeah um the original construction drawings they have those I mean that would tell you also how the plumbing lay out as well yes it's other past of what the Riser diagram is that would answer his question what's below yeah and well well and like I don't even know like you know how to obtain those so you know I I don't know um so the just to answer the question about the drawings um anything that's available uh is available through um track it stream or um onbase so there's the onbase is sort of all the older files um that the city still
036has records of um so typically you'd go in there and search by the address and anything that's there would be available thank you I mean they may help you maybe you got a 50-50 chance of being there I don't know you know hard to say but be one path and trying to find what the drawing was and then you wouldn't hire an engineer you'd have the drawing right Grand yeah um well so I you guess where we're at is yeah you know well we well we obviously already actually performed all the work and yeah you know whether is an ATT tenant and while they temporarily put the you know while the you know syn back and it's like usable and when nothing is you know happening oh well but well we do want to cover
037back up and we want to paint we want to get all that you know you know done for that tenant so yeah you know if we were to you know want delay this where I guess you find plans and S plans I mean you know I don't know you know how long that you know takes um you I don't know so Michael is there a way uh if you go to page 14 in the booklet where Larry offers a code path is there a way to get him to be before you go ahead and do all of this stuff just kind of get him to spell out a little more clearly what it is that he's looking for in terms of the total DF Fus that might be on a on a line because again
038he's referencing you know that you can only a 2in stack can only receive six dfus in a one in a one branch interval every 8 ft of pipe is considered a branch interval so are we talking about that horizontal run in within the unit is 8 ft or the total horizontal and vertical run of 8 ft I mean because it doesn't it seems to me that it's probably connecting to a larger pipe but if he's wor if the concern is that there's going to be a problem on the lower level I think he could offer a little bit more guidance or interpretation to what it is that he's actually looking for in order to bring that to some kind of resolution for these guys and I'd have to look into it further but I and
039maybe you know is the the reference made to that configuration is that residential code or commercial well you know well you know well as well as far as well with the dfus in the branch line well they are actually both the same so it where where this you know actually becomes an issue is well the hor or no so you well the vertical pipe well that well this you know what branch line is you know you know is you know I'm connecting to you know on a t or a y so you know where where drops one down well will so you on a commercial code well they want that from a ver vertical to be like you know a 3 in you know want a r potential you know it well again it you
040know no it will does not matter if it's on the first floor then you know on the second floor it can be either floor but you know on a you know on the ra residential well they want that ver vertical to be you know 2 in you know ATM in a minimum you know and you know I well the commercial they want that you know 3 in a minimum so you know you know well and you know I've you know seen stxs where you once it comes down to the ground you know you know it'll increase right well there you I'm in a clean out or a plug that like you're able to clean out so in all likelihood you know and well that one that's right I understand you you know if there's you
041a vacant unit or asilt or something like that that you know shows what there's that you know what 3 in on the ground I mean so if the 3 in is at the starts at the first floor floor you're okay but they to tie and B3 so I would still have to go you know into that wall about unit you know cut the you know drywall out and you know increase it from that gy base and go up to 3 in yeah so it is with the real world you know application of will do I you know do what do we you know evade that the bace well that you know somebody else you know one owns and well that opens up a can of worms um you know or do we do with a
042real world you know you know application um I mean well that's where we're at well well and will the alternative you know I understand what lar you know you know and I were were you know in agreement like you well well well that it isn't going to affect like you you know the plumbing it's just for the code and he can't pass it you know and I get it and well that's why I thought with the appeals and well that's what you know he gave mentioned what to me was you know about while while the board of appeals like actually well hey like you should you know ride out this he's you know seen you know other things you know what go through here and but but yeah you know on me I probably should
043have you know asked you more questions or called but you know I just you actually filed you know an application and you know attached a few things and said okay cool I can get an exception from you guys but and um you know I get that is not the case as as part of the inspection when we um fail an inspection typically we'll let people know of their right to appeal the decision to the board um okay just because it is written in code that that's an option that um that uh permit holders have well you know don't get that but well Larry and I wish he was on here but like I mean I'm not going to you know throw him on bus I'm you know you know he's a great inspector but like
044you know we we were like no I get it like well so the alternative is that that you tie that you know same thing and you dump it you know into you know sink it's the know the same load it's the same you know discharge it's not you know doing anything you increasing it or actually making it where it's any yeah not a safety issue it's basically a Lal law issue like well well correct in well well and then actually my mind it's well it is um worse you know in a real world application cuz what if that you know a sink you know you know somebody you know throws you a plate in it and you know it covers it up it can't you know drain it's over overflowed least in a box it's
045while mean it can't be like you know altered or you tampered like behind unit less accessible yeah it's there I mean so yes you know you it's a real real world you know application I would love to get it g you passed or you know exception but yeah well but you know I get one now you after reading the know summary that you know I'm not you know like you know here to change with a code I I really am and well that's what was what wasn't you with the intention so okay so it doesn't sound like finding the original drawings is going to help you because you probably already believe that the RIS downstairs is already 2 in cuz you see it going down is 2 in well yeah with the vertical but you
046know add you know at some point you know it'll tie three you know and it's usually at with the base yeah you know above you know a ground you cut it off you increase it go but the code is requiring that all the way from the second floor fixture down to that point being a 3in line not a 2in line yes well you know correct you know in a commercial code will that you know a vertical wants it to be you know three and a residential it can be two but and well that's where I was like you know hoping originally and you know how I you know well you know presented it like or Larry you know and well that's well the only that you know I added in with the beginning of my
047application was originally you I mean I applied for it and well then we started the work and then we got the call no no no like well this isn't residential it's commercial and and then well that point like we already had one the walls open we were going so you know I get it and well that isn't well the proc you know I get that too is there anything that we had done this in the past where it's Aur concern about how it physically functions that we physically test it you know R up a water f it or something else like that that that you know commissions the process of that it's limit number of fixtures on it what is the difference between the commercial code and residential code which why it would be allowed
048in one and not the other for fixture count height the building nothing pictures above it you know what all of that so we can go through say well there's no pictures above this it's applicable for when it's only one story or nothing above you I would I would just say that the residential code is never it it isn't acceptable in a commercial structure the the the building code and the plumbing code are the ones that apply to that structure so at some point the code must have changed because if there's a 2-in stack there now yeah that's possible do they have any recoil course by going through the existing building building I I think you would get back to the if something's changed the portion that's changed needs to be in compliance um they're change
049if it if they weren't changing something if it were if they were you know if they're replacing a sink we would never require them to upgrade the rest of the plumbing if they were replacing the toilet we wouldn't require that when they add a fixture it's a different I I see the code applying differently if they're adding something to the system so they take the sink out and put the washer in there that's what I just going to ask say balance of fixtures well that's have a sink in their bathroom well well no well that's essentially What will what will well you what what well what Larry is you know offering as they work around is that you know I mean it's say you don't want to sink and you just you know like you
050want to discharge your washer to it and you know EAS able to pass it well is you know it's like a regular you know you you know a sink and whether there's like you know an air gap or an A you know air break there and like you can you know dump whatever you want to um so you well that is will the work around see that's the part I'm I'm having trouble with how does how does that change the requirement for the size of the stack you're still stuck with a 3in stack requirement aren't you it's existing now but well because it's a sink well that's what it is and you know in with a code like you're able to discharge a washer you know to a sink I think that's the only workaround
051it's not a great you know explanation for your question but that it's no explanation for my question yeah I get it and well that's something we you like have to talk to the plumbing board about CU you know I don't see well I don't see like what the difference but you're just you know taking all the discharge and putting it you somewhere else all of a sudden it passes let's let's I don't want to beat a dead horse here but let's just take this one more one more time so if they if they take out the vanity sink and they put in a laundry sink and they discharge the washer into the laundry sink okay that that takes care of a code compliance but they're still stuck with the 3-in stack requirement but that's okay
052and yeah it's written in the code that it's allowable that's oh but he still wants to know just as a point of information well he many not to dump the sink in he'd rather have a dump in the back so you don't see this unsightly thing dump any K you know but but that I understand that but that's still that's a workaround without having to rip out the entire ground floor walls and all that stuff yeah and I think that that's presented in Larry's if if I'm correct that's presented in Larry's yeah well that's what you know he presented you as a work around but he's still even so he still says he wants to know how many fixtures are tying in to the to the to the stack I mean he says so in
053the well you know correct and when I um spoke to him you know in regards yeah you know well well we well we didn't you know have a conversation about you know actually the dfus we just like yeah you know get it you know it would W work it would actually you know want function but I can't pass it okay so one more time if if a laundry type sink a tub washer discharge into the tub is an acceptable workaround then it would seem to me that you have an alternative solution and what you would have to do is go back to the HOA and tell them this is the only way that this will work without having to rip apart everything in the complex to make it code compliant because you're stuck with an
054R to building classification but I would still expect that there should be some kind of a more detailed conversation between you and the building department Larry and Michael to make sure that this is exactly going to be fine and that there and his other requirements for wanting to know what's going down going on on the lower levels doesn't really apply that's what I'm understanding from all of this okay is that is that fair to say yes yes so only the second floors would require it well yes well that is the whole well that's the whole point you know you're exactly right so you know order to get you know everything you know you know well you know you know compant above like are we having to RI rip you know everything out you know what
055below and I mean it is you I'm in a real world you know thing that I'm going to get involved in I think the question is this is maybe maybe more for the HOA is what's more important to them allowing their tenants or their owners to have washing machines or a matter of sync Aesthetics because in the in the real te practical world I get you can look the other way no well I get it and well yeah well well this is what I started like you know an hour ago or whatever uh well well well I didn't really understand this process you know I thought we were able to get you know exceptions in here where we could apply you know up to with the HOA or whatever for the second floor units or
056whatever well and we do it on a Case by case and make sure everything w lines up with the appliance but well that is not how I read the summary um was I am not want wanting you you you know I am not want wanting in order to change on the plumbing code it's just you know are we able to you know have a re real world exception well that's where I thought well you I actually well the appeals process was going to I'm helping yeah you know I mean AB it does you know I mean please you know I don't know okay well I mean all things considered I think that I think there's a viable alternative solution for you but I also think that it requires making sure that you guys you the
057HOA and the city are all on the same page so I'm going to propose that we table this until that conversation or those conversations happen so that everybody's crystal clear about what the alternative is and that it's acceptable because you've got a bunch of other units that could be facing the same issue and I don't think you nor we want to go through this do it once more than one time yeah no yeah well no I mean I actually you know I'm enjoying this conversation but I would I would suggest when you talk to the HOA that you list the three things that we're allowed to change and why we're stuck cuz we can't seem to there's no other fourth other option that we can squeeze in yeah well I get it you know I'm
058just going to add AC Cross Road with you the client at this point because we want to wrap it up and we want to get them back to nor but we can't and yeah and you know I know thought what the exception would no or you know I mean whe the appeals would you know like know Grant something on real real world so we could di move past it and we'll then have the conversation I don't know in the future or with the HOA like whatever so tell the client all show her the new s she's just acquired well what is well there is you know I'm a pretty you know I'm a LW W laundry room you know s i can you know get and you know it'll work it'll you know I'm suffice
059it's just I mean you know I mean we're just you know actually taking it from a box like a foot away and putting it into a sink it's it's the same you don't want discharge the same load it's not affecting so do you have to rip the Stu off you put in or do you just have to discharge it into the sink no one no it's essentially what well no you know I band in that caet so if you get a at the future you know well that's what well well Larry said well why you cut it you want well and then like you're able to cap that you actually box so it can't be well used and then just you know what dump it in there and you know I'll approve it and we'll
060walk past it but of course well that's not what we wanted and that's well not what I you know well well that isn't what you know actually with the client envisioned it isn't even what what you know like what the HOA was envisioning on these know second FL units was actually they wanted to go in a box you know for the prettiness you and you know what concealing it and yeah I guess you can so sometimes a loophole will work to your advantage in the real world though well in will this case Ken it and I I would just say that I think that from what you're saying the argument then is that you would have a way to demonstrate or prove that your configuration is equal to or better than that's the path the
061code yeah um yeah okay and test by whether method you this equal two how you define equal two or better you know whatever Larry likes and I I think that yeah that would ultimately like based on what they presented um if that was the route that this meeting went was that it was equivalent or better and documentation was presented from an engineer or you know somebody along those lines stating that you know this system has configured works in the same way well yeah well that's a good actually point you know well there is you know I mean a part of you actual the plumbing you know code where like you know where like you know engineering will like you know well it can like you want to supersede with a plumbing code I mean is
062a prescriptive path you're doing a performance path or some of the path well correct but I don't know you know how like you know you know know like you know detailed of you know engineering and what that entails cuz you know I'm not an engineer I I was just saying that as a we if they're looking if you're looking at presenting as equal to or better that would be an Avenue to make that argument but that would assume that they're going to within a stacked Arrangement they're going to have a washing machine on the first on the second floor the same configuration on the first floor to do a complete test because and I'm not I'm not saying it as what what would I mean a practical it's a practical matter I mean if you
063just do the second floor the the next person that comes in and wants to do it on the floor below is going to be back to the same thing and what if it doesn't work and I I think that's why it would need to be presented in a holistic manner that addresses the plumbing system okay so you going to go ahead and put a laundry sink and close out your permit then you can keep your very over by tabling it and he work this out for all the other units so does he want to have it ruled on today up down or is he okay with it being caed or poone cabling is when you put it on the table without a date and we come back even when you wants to come back postponing
064as a two day C or he might say I want to know today which he has the right to do so it's kind of up to him on theing well so I'm okay with you know for the tabling well there is an issue with you well the plumbing permit you know has like you know X separation date you know I just you know got that one one notification uh well that will expire like in you know what January or something you know I don't I you know don't quote me but so while so well you know if we do you know table this well well do we close the plumbing permit out and you know how do we do that with going back to a so so without without the final inspection we can't close
065the plumbing permit out however if you send me an email saying the reason that you want to extend your permit I can extend it for another 90 days based on that um and then we would reevaluate if it needed to be done again well well while well that would at least allow me what to have you done me well you know I mean a conversation with well the owner and uh and yeah and you know tell them about you know everything the code allows me to do that just as long as it's in writing um and there's a a reason um uh given as to why it needs to be extended well yeah well then you while well while well to like you answer like your question well then yes you I would like to
066table this I guess and you know and you know see if you well there's a viable way to get you variance or you know or like you know an engineer might want to help who knows so once you know I'm have a conversation you know andless you want to pass it like you can do that so okay motion so the motion is to to table it to table the propos the difference you don't know when it's coming back or it's coming back yeah de table postp is like we're going to take it up on January 15th or February 13th or whatever so I would suggest we table table the motion and give the applicant time to work with the plumbing department uh and to come to an agreeable solution that we can address later or
067not as needed second does that make sense second oh is that motion oh yeah I second those in favor I I motion passes the appeal is tabled until we have more pration from the applicate all right all right thank you no thank you next item on the agenda is old business I see no old business anybody staff have old business anything no next item is new business any new business uh next it agenda is adjournment we have a motion move to ajour Second those in favor I adjourned that 231