001e e e order the Reg regular bilding board of appeals meeting for October 17 2024 roll call board members Paul darling here Robert Hart here David arstar is absent Kevin Cox is absent Hugh Flack Jr here uh staff we have Mike Lemieux here Ryan Miller here Deborah Williams here and myself Juliet Harvey thank you and we have a quorum we have Quorum and majority need we need least two votes to get a motion pass is that correct you hear from this one okay yes turn this one on in we going to get you in stereo could [Music] be um so Deborah do you know we need to have a motion of three people or three people positive so all three have to vote in favor of it okay um can I get a is there
002any public commentary next item in general I don't see any public here next item on the agenda is the approval of the agenda so can I have a motion for that approve second those in favor I I it passes approval of the minutes from the September 19th um meeting does anyone have any comments on the minutes if not we can get a motion to approve those move to approve the minutes of the last meeting I second those in favor I those are passed next item on the agenda is peels actions and show cost hearing and we have a one variance today one variance request today and um the process will be is that we will have um staff make his report the recommendations we want have the applicant come in you can sign in and
003then spend 5 minutes or so talking about your appeal and then the board will ask questions um to the applicant and staff and then uh we'll have a motion and and um then we'll vote on it and then there only three board members here today we'll need all three here to have a have a successful uh variance so staff yes so the building at 721 South Forest it's a mies use occupancy consisting of A3 R2 B S2 and M it's a 13-story building uh 217 units and it's currently under construction upon the plumbing plans uh being reviewed um inspector Ryan Miller identified this issue um that the applicant is seeking relief from stating that the vertical distance of the fixture outlet to the Trap Weare shall not exceed 24 in and the horizontal distance shall
004not exceed 30 in measured from the center line of the fixture outlet to the center line of the inlet of the Trap which is section 102.1 of the 2018 Michigan plumbing code uh the building proceeded and the plumbing was installed in a manner that does not meet the minimum code uh requirements of section 102.1 now the applicant is seeking relief from this requirement staff recommends this application be denied as it does not meet the standards for approval the code has not been misinterpreted the provisions of the code do apply and the proposed remedy is not equal to or better than the minimum required standards the appeal in is attempt to get a relief from uh one code section to comply with with another relief from 102.1 so that section 99.2 can be met the code
005is intended to be complied with in full and does not allow one section to be disregarded so that another requirement can be met the plumbing system must meet all the requirements of the Michigan plumbing code the applicant is proposing an untested and non-compliant Method um and is seeking the variance for compliance okay thank you so a please come up to the microphone sayate your name make sure you're signed in and tell us about your appeal okay we already signed in okay um my name is Matt Spencer I'm the plumbing engineer of record on the project I'm here with uh subtext uh who is the building owner and also the architect wdg um so this was something that came up we had requested a pre-inspection before we goad and uh duplicate this across several of the
006units uh within the building the pluming inspector had come out to the site had made a comment to us uh in regards to the section 99.2 and that You' already stated and um while doing this uh we're sorry um part of the issue is the waste piping coming from the shower pan is at the level two Podium slab that level two Podium slab is actually a post tension concrete slab and the thickness is 24 to 36 in throughout that second floor level so in order to install the horizontal wet F vent system that we have serving the bathroom groups we were proposing to go with a box out at the level two slab in order to provide divide that distance of 24 in in order to meet the uh the section that was referenced when
007we did that then it requires an offset in that pipe that to get below the slab again in order to reconnect into the rest of the horizontal weet vent system for the bathroom group and when the comment was made we aren't able to go ahead and keep the piping at that level and then add a vent into it without tearing into the concrete without potentially hitting post tension slabs within that concrete Podium and therefore we're proposing to go ahead and drop that line down so that the Trap is further than 24 in in order to still meet the other code requirement and prevent the venting of the fixtures from exceeding that slope that's referenced in the code we're also proposing that in order to alleviate any concerns with self- siphoning that we are providing a
008deep sealed trap so instead of a typical 2 in we're going to provide 4 in to go ahead and alleviate any issues with self- siphoning of the Trap and both of these sections when looking back at the code and commentary which I realize is not building code but looking at what icc's interpretation of what these sections are with both of them the concern is primarily with self- siphoning so the intent is that you can't have an S trap or any other prohibited trap like that that would go ahead and allow the Trap itself to siphon out whenever it's draining and thereby letting uh sewer gases come into the building so with our recommendation to go ahead and lower that trap and exceed that 24-in Dimension we're alleviating the issue with not being able to meet
009the slope requirements of 99.2 but it is in conflict with Section 102.1 now with these fixtures it is a shower or a bathtub that the Trap is in these locations all of these when if you had happen to have a self- siing event that would go ahead and have trailing water after you've turned off whatever fixture that actually is going to reime that trap after it was siphoned off if that were ever to happen so with these items we're making this proposal to uh come before the board and appeal that suggestion primarily because at this point in the stage of construction we're not going to be able to go ahead and core through that post tension slab without the danger of hitting something or potentially causing another conflict somewhere else with the architectural codes with
010accessibility okay thank you um board have any questions or comments for the applicant how how big is the vertical drop in your diagram the proposed so it depends on which area it's in like I said there's two different slab thicknesses there I believe there's one shower location that's in a 36 in deep slab and then there the rest of them are all in 24in deep slabs so at most you're going to be maybe 10 12 in down below that and with the 24 in location you're probably going to be closer to 3 or 4 in below that and this happens at every single bathroom in the unit or just certain floors or how many only on level two all the upper floors um they just have a standard uh concrete deck with uh with a
011B deck for the metal pan that's a separation of platform ass some the s for potention slab there correct yeah yeah correct yeah so you're talking maybe half a dozen bathrooms dozen bathrooms at that level uh it's more than that I think it's in total there's about 73 fixtures in total at that second floor level but it only applies to the shower in those bathrooms it would be shower and bathtub there are a few locations that there are some bathtubs there as well and what's the Deep sealed trap do for you so what that does is it increases the depth of that trap so that will go ahead and help prevent any vacuum pressure that's potentially created from actually sucking that water out of the Trap itself and pulling it with it so by deepening
012that trap you actually are ensuring that you actually have a higher pressure that it takes to overcome that in order to go ahead and actually siphon the Trap itself and the concern is a highrise high high tall building there's a lot of water going down the stack that creates that pressure not in this case mainly because this is level two so this is actually the bottom of all those and because we're in a high-rise condition um with the venting that we have the bottom two stories can't tie into the rest of the stacks so those are already separated out we're only talking about that lower floor here so you have less vertical stack pressures there then correct there would be less of an issue with stack effect in this case mhm and uh I think
013one of the comments that the um inspector had is that there hasn't been an untested system so is there way to commission this to confirm the Deep trap will work as far as okay we're going to see if the vacuuming system works and then it'll be it'll leviate the concern of we have a deep trap let's go ahead and test it out to make sure we certainly do something like that um I don't believe any of the drain pans have been installed yet U but we could certainly set up a test and if the inspector would like to come out and witness that test um I think that we can go ahead and get that accomplished on site mhm and I just recommend that maybe we have we'll go ahead and install the piping so
014a P trap has a cleanout at the bottom of it so after we've gone through a drain event we can go ahead make sure it's all been drained out open up that cleanout and with the water coming out we would be able to determine that it's still in fact primed mhm so they're all identical so if you tested one you'd say sub them all then correct yeah mhm have a concern with that from an inspection point point of view for compliance find me to to conduct the test yes MH MH is is there any advantage to adding a trap primer a trap primer um you could potentially add a trap primer the the purpose behind a trap primer is if you happen to have a trap that does doesn't see a lot of water and
015so then you would go ahead and fill it up um the similar situation still exists in that it's still below the concrete Podium so we would need to go ahead and and basically core or drill a connection down there for that trap primer these be in a shower and tub should get a lot of water it should get you know good volume good to be keep that wet so any other questions for the applicant you want to write down a motion um let read it make sure I get the right motion this time for [Applause] okay get motion you want to read and then we can discuss it yeah okay great uh I moved it in case BBA 24- 00006 the appeal of the building officials decision that the work proposed at 721 South Forest
016be granted relief from section 102.1 of the 2018 Michigan building code and the building board of appeals reverses the building officials decision for the reason that the applicant has proposed an equal or better form of construction with the following stipulations one that the work is performed per the applicant's proposed box out detail number two including deep seal trap increased piping size from 1 and 1/2 to 2 in two that a sample installation will be provided to allow commissioning of the array and tested to the satisfaction of the city plumbing inspector and three that approval of this variance shall not constitute a precedent for future similar appeals okay thank you any discussion by the board on the uh Vari we qualify it as only applying to the second floor shower Hub that makes sense in fact
017there's one second floor and there's no other pictures located above it I guess if that is the case that that's correct does the uh city inspector have any questions about the way the way it's written as far as the variance think that's acceptable I think we should probably also have a engineer sign off on the approval okay of the method mhm I'm assuming you're looking for a third party engineer yes okay okay did we stipulate testing at all the commissioning it's I guess would be similar kind of process it want to do we have to qualify anything in terms of affiliate I think the inspector was commissioned for the inspectors you know so I think that's that'll meet that of course we're looking for there but anything else from City staff as far as recommendation
018okay okay want to read the last two items there I do have a question okay so just as I read this when did the 2018 code get adopted is that correct 15 or 18 we we're currently on 21 but we when we do the plan review We review it under when it was plans were submitted yeah yeah okay oh so it is 18 yes okay all right okay um so if we could just re I've got the one stipulation that the proposed alternate Plumbing array only pertains to to the second level and the part about the third party engineer is that part of the commissioning no that would be a separate thing that would they would they would uh get a letter from that the third party would be a via a fifth Point that's
019what I see that as stipulation and what are they third party engineer doing I think they're reviewing it and saying design you know reviewing our testing method I think is what you're talking about yes okay would we want them to witness the test as well yes I'd like them to also witness okay and that's a sealed May some kind of sealed letter they witnessed it and that's what would be deliverable there then y yeah okay so you there a third party mechanical engineer in state of Michigan is what that would be yes Okay so two three four so just to reread that one stipulation that a a sample installation will be provided to allow commissioning of the array and tested to the satisfaction of the city plumbing inspector and a thirdparty Michigan licensed mechanical engineer
020is that yes okay so should I read it one more time the whole thing okay all right uh I move that in the case of BBA 24-6 the appeal of the building officials decision that the work proposed at 721 South Forest be granted relief from section 102.1 of the 2018 Michigan plumbing code and the board of appeals reverses the building officials decision for the reasons that the applicant has proposed an equal or better form of stip of construction stipulations one that the work is performed per the applicant's proposed box out detail number two including the Deep seal trap and increase piping size from 1 and a half to 2 in two that a sample installation will be provided to allow commissioning of the aray and tested to the satisfaction of the city plumbing inspector and
021a third-party Michigan licensed mechanical engineer three that the proposed alternate Plumbing array only pertains to the second level of the building and four that approval of this variant shall not constitute a precedent for future similar Appeals okay thank you any further discussion do we have a second oh second okay thank you thank you any further discussion look good to me so we have a motion um we have support or we have support so those in favor I anyone against no so passes you have barrance so um City staff will be sending you a letter summarizing this in the next week or so is that correct okay any questions from the applicant okay no that's good thank you you lat Deborah next item of the agenda is old business any old business by staff for City
022I have a question though unrelated to all of this all around town there are a bunch of abandoned boxes that look like they used to hold telephone equipment okay really okay I was just curious because uh they're at least in our part of the Northeast part of town they're a lot of them look like they've been smashed over and the wires are hanging out and just wondered if that was something you guys were aware of or they belong to somebody if you uh give me an address like or somewhere where we could uh look at it I could um have somebody check it out and we can adj the meeting too if you guys are ready to the meeting okay now so we'll say no old business no new business we have a motion to
023journ so move second those in favor I I we're Jour at 157 thank you