Ann Arbor Historic Commission Meeting 7/11/24

001e e e hello everyone welcome to the Thursday July 11th 2024 me meeting of the an arbor historic district commission the meeting is being held in person and electronically via Zoom we intend to conduct this hybrid meeting similarly to an in-person meeting however please be patient if there are technical issues members of the public who would like to comment on hearings or other matters they do so in person or virtually to speak during any of the public comment opportunities please call 337-9723 or toll-free 877 85352 47 enter meeting ID 965 3669 9762 this information is also available on the published agenda in the Public Notices section of the city website and on the broadcast of this meeting on CTN CTN can be found on Xfinity channel 16 AT&T channel 99 streaming online on YouTube or

002at a2gov.org slatch CN Mariana will you please call the rooll one second please yeah no problem you me to get it yeah you can sure uh sh Rin here commission uh commissioner forner AB commissioner cauldron here commissioner Smith present commissioner Kaplan present Commissioner Ross we have four members present that is a quorum it will require three affirmative votes to approve a petition thank you very much um before we move forward we have a new planner uh that's helping us here and and why didn't you introduce yourself please thank you so much uh my name is Julia Shake um been working with the city now for about 3 months uh did my PhD actually at U ofm eight or so years ago and was like living and working teaching urban planning working with sustainability and urban

003issues in Brazil for the last eight years so it's been uh it's been a great return to an arbor thank you for that introduction it's um it's really great to have you here so thank you appreciate it okay um now we will move on uh to approving the agenda are there any changes to tonight's agenda okay seeing none without objection the agenda is approved as presented so now we'll move on to public comment this is an opportunity for persons to speak for up to 3 minutes about an issue that is not listed as a public hearing on this agenda to comment on other such other preservation matters please approach the podium uh or join the meeting using the information displayed on the agenda and the video feed so I don't see anyone approaching the Podium

004here do we have anyone uh hit star n on your phone if you'd like to raise your hand um anyone this evening there are no virtual attendees with hands raised at this time fantastic thank you very much um in that case I will close the the public comment portion um of the meeting and we'll move on to E unfinished business and we do have unfinished business from last month it's it's E1 903 West hon uh Mariana would you please give the staff report for the hearing yes um this is 903 West here on it did come before a closer it did come before the commission last month um to talk about the front porch and the back new door um as a reminder this was the front porch that you see right here was issued

005a certificate of appropriateness last month so we won't be discussing that um we're just going to be looking at the back um as a reminder the HDC asked the applicant last month for a plan showing the new stoop ramp and stairs at the back door including ramp Dimensions an elevation of the new stoop ramp in stairs and a drawing for how the door will be finished um here are some photos of the back of the house that we took at the Review Committee on Monday this is um the current door here the ramp is temporary right here and then the proposal is for a new concrete ramp with a railing right here um and it'll come and extend beyond the east side of the house there is also this existing back porch here and it

006is proposed to have a new safety rail as well here is the current door um there were no new details for how the door will be finished so that is the current state this is another view of the current existing porch um that is also proposed to have the railing another view of that and then here are the drawings that were submitted so you can see um simple railing on the existing porch and then this will be the new ramp so here's the door um again no details on how we finish but we do have the elevation drawing in the plan um some stairs a simple concrete stoop and then a ramp that extends beyond the house here is the plan you can see again the existing porch the door that is here small concrete

007Landing simple stairs simple ramp uh concrete ramp that is sloped goes all the way down towards 7th Street um existing driveway does not is not going to be repaved at this time um but there will be some new planting areas added on either side of the ramp I'm not going to go through um the staff report in detail that was presented last month it is included as part of the agenda and it was published with the packet um but as a reminder here's the current door that was formerly a window another view view from the interior another view from the interior um in terms of the Secretary of interior standards number one a property will be used as it was historically or will be given a new use that requires minimal change to its distinctive

008materials features spaces and spatial relationships two the historic character of a property will be retained and preserved the removal of distinctive materials or alterations of features spaces and spatial relationships that characterize a property will be avoided five distinctive materials features finishes and construction techniques or examples of craft craftsmanship that characterize a property will be preserved nine new additions exterior alterations or related new construction shall not destroy historic materials that characterize the property for the entrance entrances and porches it is recommended to design and install additional entrances or porches on secondary elevations when required for a new use in a manner that preserves the historic character of a building it is not recommended to introduce a new entrance or porch that is incompatible in size scale material and color or to install secondary service entrances and

009porches that are incompatible in size and scale with the historic building for building site it is recommended to identify retain and preserve buildings and their features as well as features of the site that are important in defining its overall historic character and it is not recommended to remove or radically change buildings and their features or site features which are important in defining the overall historic character of the property similarly um for some of the an arbor historic district guidelines that I'll just highlight residential doors it's not appropriate to install a new door opening um it is appropriate to install a new por and entrance on secondary elevations it it can be appropriate if it doesn't diminish the buildings architectural character and the design and materials are compatible with the building and the site um there

010are some more that are included in the design guidelines that are in the staff report but I won't go through them all um and that is the update those are the drawings that we have received and the historic district commission can decide if the new back door ramp and stairs are appropriate for accessibility in the back of the house okay thank you for the report we'll now go to the Review Committee report and we have commissioner Kaplan with the report yes so we um we uh spent some time here we we did not talk unless I'm if I'm blanking on something correct me we didn't spend a lot of time talking about the door because I believe the door was pre-existent and so we did have a a discussion about you know the applicant found

011a house that had a lot of either lack of repairs or core repairs that's sort of what he got and he's now trying to fix some of them so we focused mainly on the proposals for the rails and the ramp um I brought up and just so so you know I was just asking uh David as well just thinking out loud when we were on site about the possibility of taking the ramp as you propose it and doubling it back about Midway so whatever the length is if you split it in half and did a return I don't think it I don't know that it has a historic significance it programmatically I think makes it better because the user in this case I believe your dad it leaves him right back to where a car

012might be dropping him off or someone else might be coming out of the house it brings everyone back to the same place where the door is I don't know if they're on on a walker or wheelchair but if they were on a wheelchair a long straight ramp that shoots into 7th Street May pose a safety hazard if there's nothing to slow them down and I always thought the set the switchbacks kind of just inadvertently provided a safety mechanism for that other than that we saw the you know the the railings and the porch and and and bringing back some sort of safety feature to something that wasn't there when you found it uh were were look good and also the fact that all of this is exterior to the house and reversible was something that

013we did mention the Catherine brought up did did you stand at the sidewalk and get a feel we're going to get to you in a sec actually yeah just like really quickly but yeah just one one you we'll get right there did the um so from from I'd like to know more about like standing at the site what does it kind of feel like so the one thing I would I mean I I I see I see advantages to my suggestion for the user and for the owner but from a selfish historic district person um I like the fact that that switch also would bring the footprint of this within the the basic footprint of the house because as drawn there's a significant piece that sort of comes out into the yard so it become

014it's not an addition to a house so it you know if it were we'd be worried about how it's visible from h on Street you could see it from the front of the house um and you still would because it's a railing but as a railing I don't know that we're applying those same guidelines but uh you know all of those problems are solved if it switches back okay let's do this uh thank you uh would the applicant please uh approach the podium provide your name and address for the record uh you have up to 5 minutes to speak and please let us know any comments okay so uh my name is B Fisher B Fisher uh I live at 209 Pleasant place um so a few things that weren't in the drawing that were

015not submitted that I think are important uh that are part of the plan number one uh you'll notice on the back of the building the last Edition that I would deem his storic has a brick Foundation the parts that I will deem in my own mind and due to the research I've done non-historic have a cement block foundation and there is enough overhang and in the plan it's to be a brick veneered and then World D blast it to make it appear old as with the entire ramp so the sides of the ramp no matter how we would construct it we' try to make it look age appropriate um to kind of answer uh Mr kaplan's uh comments there are two drawings that were submitted one is without a railing and it brings up um

016a raised planting bed along the entire length of the ramp kind of would raise up the yard to kind of make it blend that was kind of what we were thinking originally and more out of trying to diminish its uh impact on the site more than anything uh as far as safety it would be a very uh minor slope but we would be very happy to build it with a cutback no problem whatsoever um we we just thought that would be more um look like a handicap ramp and that's kind of the intent is to not make it look like one so we really wanted to blend it and the railing down the entire one was just another option again if the board thought so in any way we would love comment we we want

017to do something that is appropriate for the house to call it a new door old door I I struggle with a lot just by chance I ran into another friend of mine who's a contractor in town who's worked on the building he saw the door that was there additionally as to the comments regarding the trim we've submitted photos of the old door with the exact same trim we still have we intend to put up around this the drawings show a depiction of that trim the photos show the trim the siding that was all there with the standard panel door that matched the Birch uh slab door on the left so um the door was there there's no doubt long before I bought the property um I I know there are pictures of it not there

018it was also there so at what point that door became a or that window became a door I don't even know what the laws were um it may have complied it may not have my mother sat on this board for quite some time and I know they've changed uh dramatically I did replace the door the slab door we still have the original slab door that was there we'll we'll do what you know whatever you guys want we want to work with you we we'll do it in any way this these were our ideas and we're we're open to any suggestion very good thank you yeah we'll we'll probably have you back up in a sec but um we're going to move on to the public hearing actually before we do that um did did anyone

019have any questions for for Bart okay um I did have a question I the um you me can you come back up sorry uh the um you mentioned there there was a photo of or like you had the trim but I've talking about the door now you had the trim of the door and then but the trim's not there now we took the trim off when we replaced the door we put a new door frame in okay so so but we have the original trim it's it is not anything that is you know um significantly detailed it is just standard it's standard trim yes okay and um so that yeah I I guess I was expecting to see that on the elevation so that's why it was brought up in the staff support because there's

020material that's not there I guess in your mind you know you're like I have it it we also have the pictures of it and yeah so that that's just why that was brought up and so what are the materials of that just so we know is it wood well some pieces that are really uh unique so that transom window above the door it is a very old piece and it actually has the in the very front of the building there are two there's no windows on the actual back of the home with the same uh design but in the front of the building all of those windows actually have a radiused corner um in the actual uh double hung panes and that transom window shares that same I have a mill I have all of

021finger Le's old shaping tools I have a unbelievable shop and I really love woodworking I could not replicate it and I got to I mean I've done things that you wouldn't believe but um yeah that that piece it's very old lead paint it you know it's it's quite obvious that that transom window has been there for some time so what so what are the materials of the trim I'm sorry it's just it's it's basically 1x4 uh that has old lead pain on it that was all there the piece right under the door um is AAC that when we pulled back that that step that was all rotted so we pulled it back and we put a piece of ASAC there that then we just placed the step back the step says 1957 on it but

022um I mean you know we have pictures from all over the place and and I couldn't tell you when what was done when the trim everywhere else in the building is 1x4 additionally in the drawing it shows removing that vent fan which there's no motor in there's no fan in there's just stuffed insulation and newspaper in there there's no electrical wire or anything um so that was another thing we would be uh proposing to kind of just correct some of the back of the building cuz that fan is I don't know sort of a hideous little mess and what are you putting in its place just matched siding that we had actually made uh exactly the same siding that is uh on the building everywhere okay so the the door trim is wood 1x4s basically

023yes there's um some you know pieces that are ripped down between the the Upp transom window and the the frame that actually the same Dimension the the wood that was making up that uh frame for that door is 50es it's not true old 2x4s like most of the house um there's plywood that I believe that at one point the two windows you see to the right in this current photo behind that that siding was all rotted we pulled it back there's actual regular plywood so that has to be 50s esque you can see the block that block extends all the way out kind the bump out to the left of that door you can see though traveling up that's much older construction I see block on both sides of the door though there's block where

024you have the old wood and block where you have the new wood so I don't think we can just say that where there's Block it's old and where there's block 100% agree but what I was trying to I guess point out is that yes the block is very age uh similar but um the wood is not and and I believe that that those were added porches to the right that were later made bedrooms and I believe that to the left of that door was a bump out that was done for a kitchen that probably did not have any foundation under it because that's all very very old and there is a brick Foundation behind that wall um that matches the brick to the left so we would be extending that brick veneer across all of

025that block then uh Dr blasting it all the way up across that addition back to the split Stone um that kind of Blends up in the front behind those bushes any of the changes that you make to the exterior if you're removing materials or adding new materials need to go through the um staff the city staff um if you're rep if if you can think that something is repair then it's repair you don't need or repair maintenance those kind of things there's no approval needed but anytime you're going to remove material um or add new material or yeah uh it needs to go through City staff so like what what you just said about uh adding adding uh brick to the exterior I don't I don't see that in the proposal that was in the

026written for for the ramp and then to extend it onto the the concrete block um I okay what is what the materials of the handrail and the post that you have in the drawing here um so everything in there I think that was in the write up that was sent from Ed Weir um is that in the staff report I I didn't get it okay the back deck uh is a tongue and Grove product and we proposed a a PVC product for that instead of the Doug fur that is actually there and rotted we could do the Doug fur if that worked for the uh staff uh whatever you know um we just thought that would be a better product long term a light gray uh PVC product and then um for the the railing

027it would all be um a rot resistant um Cedar for the top rail for all parts of the rail post all of the detail gu the posts and the top rail the bottom rail and the ballast rate is all and it would be stained not painted in a solid you know um stain so what was what was PVC then the actual deck boards that are currently they're they're dug for and we I thought it was a concrete deck oh the deckboards of the ramp the deck to the left um there's a in in the report there's there not the not the one with the ramp that one oh there is a concrete block on the um parking lot side that that there's a wood structure that rests on that that gray is a concrete block

028um that's painted and it matches the other um concrete but it's the only one that's painted it's it's made up of a wood structure I think it's maybe 2x8 structure but then on top of it is a tongue and groove um Doug fur that is just completely dilapitated the framing's fine but the proposal for the PVC would be that tongue and groove Doug replacement okay and again we would do Doug fur if the board would prefer so we're we're here to respond to you like you know you you propose to us what you want to do and then we respond to it it that's um I appreciate that very much but I'm also very open I mean you guys have some very creative minds and you know um the time to sort of figure all

029that out is like you working with the city which you clearly did and we appreciate it but um at the meeting here it's very difficult to try to design things because then we have like a moving Target that we're trying to approve um we we're fine making like little little changes and stuff like that but um we're not the design board to say like you know what what material should I use here or something like that understood yeah um okay but I think that um we've got as far as I can tell all the materials that I was questioning um okay let's take a break uh we'll go to the staff report and then we'll move on from there thank you Bart all right so now we'll go to the public hearing um the public

030hearing is open for the application at 903 West hon public comment may be made in person or by joining the meeting using the information displayed on the agenda and the video feed so please hit star n if you're um wanting to speak Julia do we have anyone there are no virtual participants with hands raised at this time very good thank you okay the public hearing portion of the application is now closed all right would a a commissioner please make a motion on on this application looks like commissioner Smith is trying to figure out yeah take your time I could also do it that's if you're ready to go Ben sure all right that's going to go I move that the commission issu certificate of appropriateness for the application at 903 West hon a contributing property

031in the old west old Westside historic district to replace a rear window with a door and add a new stoop stairs ramp for Access uh the proposed work is compatible and exterior design Arrangement texture material and relationship to the rest of the building in the surrounding area and meets the Secretary of interior standards for rehabilitation and guidance for rehabilitation historic buildings in particular standards 2 5 and n and the guidelines for accessibility and entries and entries and porches as well as the Anor historic district design guidelines particularly as they pertain to residential porches second second okay that was moved by commissioner Calderone and seconded by commissioner Smith so now we'll have some discussion on the motion but before we do I just want to like set it up because we have to sort of live

032in like two time frames right now because really we have to go back to when whenever it was this this opening was a window and um like the very first thing we have to do like is think um uh is this window okay to become a door now it already is a door um and that obviously it's impossible to deny that um it's a door and um if it really didn't make sense to be a door we would have to deny this motion and you know um but so we have we it and it doesn't matter who owned the house when that happened um that's not up for us to dis to we could discuss it it's just not up uh it shouldn't weigh in um in the in the um in the vote um

033so I think that um we were sort of uh wondering about should this window be a door last month and it and it felt like well if we knew what the door was for then maybe we would say could it you know could it should it be a door um and I think that the you know the applicant has provided um these drawings here so now we know um you know with with with uh you know with certainty that the the door you know the the window is changed to a door and it's going to be used for um you know for egress uh with the ramp and stare uh so um you know we we have to keep that in mind somehow but if um I guess let's just stop there and I want

034to know does anyone feel like this um now that we know what we know do we not you know do does is it anyone thinking no this should not be a door this should we need to make this a window again is anyone feeling that okay all right so um that's you know we've gotten somewhere from last month so that's good um okay so they the next the next discussion is obviously well you know what what do you think about what was presented sounds like you've got a comment oh I was just going to say if if you know if if this was a window today and someone came up and said we want to go to the back of this house because now for apartments and you're trying to improve accessibility degress and in

035some cases uh disability uh access I I think I would be okay with where it's put and the idea of changing it from a window to a door wouldn't wouldn't bother me okay well said um okay so now we've got um changes to um and Mariana remind me again the the porch this the other porch That's just going to be the steps is that a contributing porch or is that um do you happen to know is that after the period of significance or I I can't remember it right now I can sorry no that's okay I mean looking at it it's it's a it's it's nothing like the front porch at least it's it's a secondary porch um it looks like modern construction um so I would say you know putting the the the simple

036handrail that I'm seeing is appropriate there and um you know p DC decking is would be fine I feel like on a on a porch like that do does anyone have any comments on that porch okay so um that's that now we have um we have the ramp it's it's going to be Cedar I'm not sure what to do about approving this motion without having the materials in the um you know the the materials aren't in the proposed um so we'll probably have to go back in in a sec I think yeah and add that in but altering the CMU is also mentioned before to that's also on on the on the application okay I would also argue it's not necessary yeah I agree okay so say a little more about that maybe I just

037think you know we want to see differentiated time periods in the different additions so you know I mean the the concrete block is you know indicative of the time frame so there's no need to cover that up the concrete block is the sidewall of the ramp is that is that right like when you look at the ramp is that what you're say no I you know he had talked about Oh look The the block okay I was confused about that thank you okay all right um okay the um all right do you want us comment about the the Switchback at this point I mean the only thing I would say the only I mean I have I have a strong feeling about it yeah I'm struggling with whether my feeling about it is relevant in

038any way to this function no it it is if you if it is coming out if this were if this was if this was an addition of it is an ADD no it is an addition you should treat it as an addition what I then what I would say is the fact that you can see part of it trailing off the side of the house if you're looking at this house face on from the street this is the one thing that you'd see and it's the thing we always talk about everywhere else is like make it so that when you're looking at the house spas on the additions in the back aren't visible they're they're stepped in well there's a corner house so it's even and it's harder right but it could be you could

039you could achieve that um aesthetically so that it isn't visible from h on street and I think it actually is win-win because I think it I think it helps the program the programming of the house I think I think aesthetically you know having a double back works works better it works better function works better Aesthetics yeah um I I'm with Steve on that one I just think that's a better better approach I'd like to know a little bit more about the skirting for the ramp and what those materials will be yeah okay um I would agree with both of you there I mean I was just saying that we're not a a design board but um we might offer a design uh change here but um it's just it's best practice um in terms of

040accessibility that you have the entrance to the ramp as close as possible to the entrance of the stair so it's just people are I mean it's more useful that way but also it's like yeah what you know we're we're all going into this place together not someone going way down there and then I'm just right here um so there's a couple reasons for that um okay are there other any other comments here we'll bring the applicant up and and have some questions but um before we do okay Bart can we uh we have a question about um the side like when we when we're looking at the side of the ramp what what are we looking at I'm I'm the sing the to that point it was just to make everything look uniform so we

041have have the left addition I'm going to call uh that is a stairwell I don't believe that was originally I think that was a kitchen but anyways we'll call that stairwell the left door on the back of the building that has a Old Brick Foundation to it that is exposed underneath that very modern um stoop that is a block cement block and it's not out of trying to cover things up it was just trying to make the building look more no no I understand a counterintuitive thing that standards are right show the different periods that the building was added on to and and I I think it's you know it's fine yeah I don't go through the I offer that up because aesthetically we really want to make this building nice I mean that's the

042goal we we have some significant uh goals and we've uh procured a lot of uh excellent experts to work on this thing so um you know dri blasting veneered brick is not something we normally do we did that in the Rider Hobby Shop building uh when we brought that um together we've done it on a few other buildings on Main Street but we you know um that that is only just I I'll leave it block if that you guys want that I'll do whatever you want but then there's other things you can spend your money on that'll have more impact right and so then the new ramp I wanted it brick only because then it would blend with all of the that veneer nicely but we'll use we can use anything you would you know

043that brick is fine brick is fine you see when you when you build that rail is it is it wood framed or are you planning on building it out of block and brick and having it solid and then skinning it with a veneer yeah it would be solid um it would be a solid cement structure would be my My Hope for it it it would just be a better longterm okay the makes more sense I see that you're saying though in my head I saw it as a wood that's going be a weird thing I get it now I think wood is slippery typically and it just doesn't hold up and last well so AG are you amendable to switching the ramp back yeah okay okay so we're going to we're going to amend the

044motion to say that the the ramp so you'll have you'll need to have a landing there we'll put a landing at the edge just back from the building of landing and then bring it back and it will basically start just just to the right of where the stop going upward yeah okay um okay so and then we're going to amend the motion to say that the um the handrail or the guard rail is going to be Cedar and we're going to amend the motion to say that the the the ramp skirt is going to be a brick veneer I love it all right um I think that's fine I mean I if this was a little you can say I think um if this was going to be a little more complex I'd say we

045need to see drawings but uh do you think we need to see drawings or are we feeling pretty good if we St out the things that we just talked about I think it's okay can you handle that in the motion sure can I ask a clarifying question are you going to add the double back in the motion or no yes yes okay so we're adding three things to the motion one is the the the switch back of the ramp one is the materials of the ballister are what did I say guard guard rail and posts are Cedar and two and three the the skirt is a brick veneer so and do you want to add something too about the PVC on the um well we might as well uh I don't know if we care

046so much about that right I mean that could be wood or PVC or it seems like yeah so let's just leave that open then um for the ease of the applicant sure can I begin yeah great I move the commission issue certificate of appropriateness for the application of 903 West hon a contributing property of the old Westside historic district to replace a rear window with a door and add a new stoop stairs a Switchback ramp for Access uh with the garden post being Cedar material with a post brick for uh for the access the proposed work is compatible and exterior design Arrangement texture material and relationship to the rest of the building and the surrounding area you don't have to read that the rest of it yeah are we good yeah okay um Mariana did

047did you get that okay um we didn't mention the um the wood trim around the door and I think we should add that too actually because it's not there right now and we just have to make sure that that door gets trimmed so can you you don't need to read the whole thing but can you also add uh wood wood trim on the the door okay uh to replace a rear window with the door with wood trim there you go okay it seems like we've gotten through it all is there anything else uh remaining out there okay um Mariana are you good with what we've gone through there you got it all yeah thank you very good in that case we're going to go to a vote all those in favor of the motion please

048say yes yes all those opposed please say no the motion carries your application has been approved congratulations all of your comments I truly apprciate honestly I really really do we appreciate your work too and any any that you're changing removing from the house please contact Mariana I'm coming to see you guys don't worry great thank you thank you okay well that is the old business now we're going to go to some new business and we've got four hearings tonight the first hearing F1 is 223 South Main Street Mariana the staff report whenever you're ready please yes so this is 223 South Main Street um currently occupied by Cherry Republic um it is located on a prominent Corner Lot in downtown an arbor on the corner of East Liberty in South Main Street this italianate style

049building was constructed in 1869 and was historically used as a grocery store for John gner it is a three-story brick building with a modern storefront at the ground floor there have been minimal changes to the building in 2008 the HDC approved the installation of two Bay windows on the south elevation facing Liberty Street um and the current signage was installed in 2011 again this is on the corner of South Main and East Liberty streets uh the applicant is requesting review of work started or completed at this address without a certificate of appropriateness this work includes the installation of three new vents on the south elevation facing Liberty Street and therefore the removal of historic masonry on May 15th 24 the work was noticed by a city official who had previously explained that HDC approval would

050be required for new openings in the exterior facad so here are some images that were taken at Review Committee this week you can see my mouse would work these are the three new openings along Liberty just above the bay Windows another view another view there's some more closeups um the new penetrations are all circular the three of them and they're approximately 1T in diameter and they're located approximately 10 ft above the sidewalk here are the drawings that you can see um they are circular ventil there are circular penetrations in the masonry um and the applicant is proposing to cover them with these Square vents here are some applicant photos and then here is what the vent would look like I did read the secretary the Secretary of of interior standards so I'm just going to

051flip through these ones already um but I will say that the work does not follow the secretary of the interior's recommendation of identifying and preserving masonry features that are important in defining the overall historic character of the building such as walls um and it also does not follow the an arbor historic district guidelines which states that attaching mechanical equipment so that historic fabric is not damaged or destroyed is appropriate and installing mechanical equipment and wiring in locations on the roof rear elevations or an alley so they are not visible from the street is also appropriate so there are some morei guidelines about changing masonry and mechanical systems and health and safety similar ones in the an arbor historic district design [Music] guidelines and the historic district commission must decide if these three new penetrations on

052the south elevation facing Liberty Street are significant intrusions and require remediation or if they are approvable thanks thank you for the staff report now we'll go on to the um to the Review Committee report so please let like let us know when you're there looking at it you know what what does what does it look like um so there they are you can see from the picture it's pretty obvious so some things that need to be emphasized um this is a even though this is a Main Street Building and this isn't the Main Street face this is Liberty at the corner of Liberty in Maine it's it's about as high-profile as any building in the city gets um and they're not symmetrical in any way of the building not that that would be something that

053I think they would ameliorate this but they're they're sort of randomized uh you know wherever I guess they were necessary internally they they are they're not inconspicuous like they they hit you over the head um during the site visit we were looking at them and and and head scratching and um one of the things that also seems um possible is that the relatively new softening around the that's not original glass so you've got these window systems that were put in clearly after the Advent of the building itself there's some aluminum sofit overhang that you can just see uh indication of on that picture if we were to zoom in you could see it better but there's a maybe a 8 to 10 in overhang on the on that uh there you go um and every

054one of those penetrations is within 15 in of one of those toets uh if the purpose of these vents I'm assuming from the giant silver dryer vents that they want to stick on the side of the building that they're needing to get air in or out but it seems like you could you could vent out of that s and have it not interrupt the visual presentation of the buing in the hall you're close enough to those those window systems you you could get there without punching holes in the brick face good okay thank you commissioner Kaplan um okay now we'll move on to the applicant comments is the applicant here great I am fantastic uh please approach the podium provide your name and address for the record and you've got five minutes to uh comment

055on what you've heard so far uh my name is Jerome Fletcher uh my address is 1331 South Z Road Ann Michigan great so any any comments on what you've heard or so yes um can we go back to the to the first picture that showed all three vents yeah that one there that's fine so uh they are at different elevations yes there's structural reasons why that happened and also there's HVAC code reasons for venting cuz one is an exhaust vent and it has to be so many feet away from a window that can open and the other two are fresh air returns these two that are closest to us in the picture on each side of that of that red pillar uh those two are fresh air and we did try to get them as

056close to the window as possible but when those windows were put in there was a steel header put in obviously to carry the structural load of the building so we couldn't get them any closer or try to incorporate them with the window in the design when the HVAC architect and the architect and I had talked about this several times now just to note this was not our this was a last Resort design we did go through several times of either trying to get to the roof or to the back Alleyway but the nature and design of the building where the Air recovery unit is located in Cherry Republic we can't get to the back Alleyway due to structural staircase that takes you all the way up to the third floor and also uh to go

057up to to the roof uh there's there's a kitchen a Culinary Kitchen on the third floor that we can't there's no space to do that and in the second floor there's office space that's rented and it would go right through the office and so we couldn't do those things and what we really tried to do in the design of of of the duck work system so that's why they had to come out that side due to the nature of how the air Recovery Unit um ventilation duck work um by code um has to be installed question couple questions here yes you you have another minute if you want to add something yeah um I do add this the dryer vent right that isn't that I totally agree with you that the design of that is

058not is not good we were thinking of something circular but we don't know how we would actually get it made yet we were looking into those options or a square and we also talked about maybe some type of a different type of a cover for it that Blended more with say the window aluminum or something of that nature in a design but we did not have that uh we didn't have that just at the at that time it's my understanding the The Proposal is that drier vent that you're painting to match the brick is that right it is going to be painted to match the brick yes that's a proposal on the table if you if you get something better if we approve that or not but um maybe you have something better but we

059don't have it here so we can't we can't like vote on that right okay okay um okay so just first of all explain you were told you can't do this without historic district approval but then it happened anyway do you have an expt no we were never told that we couldn't do that so I we heard differently I guess but must have been a miscommunication uh through the plan review right in the in the building permit the HDC approved the plans so on the mechanical plans that this was always designed this way right and the three penetrations always were in that design plan from the very first first time they were submitted back in would have been March of 23 okay is when is when that was submitted and approved by the city and HDC

060there weren't elevations showing the penetration but in you had drawings plan drawings probably that show that there's going to be three penetration drawings that show that that that show and those were approved yes okay those were approved so we went ahead and put those in because we had to special order yeah okay right so that's why we did that and then we got the stop work order because hey you guys didn't get to cuz you need an elevation um we need the elevation print so you know we were hoping that through the elevation print what we could get is hey we like to really work on making a different look for the exterior event but we have to have the exterior vent there in order to open the store because it's the last connection that

061we need for the HVAC mechanical to be passed because everything else is done and we can you explain that a little more because charity Republic has been there for a while so in my mind I'm thinking what why do you need new HVAC so it sounds like something's I'm not up to speed something's closed why do you need this it's an Erv or something like that it's an air Recovery Unit okay why do you need this Air recovery unit it has to do with the mertile code that's uh it it is supplied in the print now I I don't know if you guys have that copy but in the original print in the mertile building code because they're acquiring more space and now we've removed the interior wall so now it's a combined space and

062now they have a wine tasting bar okay it changed the requirements for moving air okay which made which made an upgrade in the in the ventilation system which the building itself doesn't have the chase space to AC to accommodate uh the newer type of air handler that has to be installed okay that's that's why yep all right um let me just see uh if I have any other questions okay I mean I that was that drove that was actually a really good explanation it um I don't have any other questions anyone else okay so take a seat we might call you back up in a sec but um thank you for that report okay um all right so that was the applicant now we'll go we we're going to the public hearing so um now

063the the public hearing is now open for this application at 223 South Main Street so um you know we don't see anyone here approaching the podium if there's someone on the phone they can hit star n to raise their hand Julie there are no virtual hands raised at this time very good thank you in that case we will now close the public hearing portion for this application and I will ask if there's a commissioner who would like to make a motion you have front of your back I do all right I'll go for it all right I move that the commission issues a certificate certificate of appropriateness for the three exterior Mason rep penetrations for ventilation on the south elevation of 223 South Main Street contributing property in the Main Street historic district the work

064as completed is compatible in exterior design Arrangement taxture material and a relationship to the rest of the building and the surrounding area and meets the Secretary of interior standards for rehabilitation and guidelines for re Rehabilitation historic buildings in particular standards one to 5 9 and the guidelines for masony and mechanical systems and the Anor historic district design guidelines for masony and mechanical equipment in addition oh never mind going right okay that's that's that's if if this doesn't pass okay uh does someone want to second that I'll second okay thank you that was moved by commissioner Calderone seconded by commissioner Smith okay so now let's discuss um so okay commissioner Kaplan you you had some you're a real problem solver today which is good that's probably yeah that makes sense but um from what you heard

065from Jerome are you still thinking that they could have done better here yes okay well what what let's let's have you say something and then we'll probably have come back I'm I'm at a I'm at a disadvantage because I don't have the interior plans and I don't know where your limitations are so I'm trying to I'm looking at I'm looking at an outside wall I'm trying to figure out how to keep it as close the same we keeping The Pedestrian experience of the building the same without getting in your way of doing your job um and I'm wondering I can see if if those windows were put in after the fact and there's a big header there that makes perfect sense to me I'm wondering if there is any way or latitude given what you

066have to do with the air Handling Systems to get those vents over the sockets for the glass so that forget the header forget going through the metal header what's sitting right on top of that and can you get into that what I'm picturing in my head is something where the element that's already there the the black anodized aluminum and the flashing that goes in if it went 6 in higher all the way across the element isn't that where the beam is the the beam should be right behind that where the socket sticks out but what if the flashing sitting above it just that skirt went a little higher and and it disguised um the air handling that you needed now what I don't know is there be a giant beam going across the building inside

067that's in your way I don't know I'm just looking I'm looking for any way to get you what you need without the asymmetrical height holes kind of in no way relating to the there is a especially in this building and the one across the street there's a real Cadence to them right there's column window column and in there's a repetition of of the sections in the bays and these things they stick out more because of this because of the way the building's built they really jump out and I'm just looking I'm I'm spitballing things and I don't know you can't go up into the space above and I see that and I know I know the um you roof roof penetrations are are hassle I'm also wondering if if it could go down can you

068go to bot can you go to the bottom where I see another I see a band across the bottom of the building where the the darker color of the change in material would be another easy place to hide a rectangular vent fresh fresh the two fresh air intakes you can't put so there is a comparable for that and that's on the pretzel Bell building on the Liberty Street side has two of two old vents that are just south of that door into the kitchen uh that are down you know at probably knee level height that are you know just have pretty standard grates over them that would be much preferred to probably the asymmetry of of what's what's there now yeah I just think we owe it to the building to see if we should

069exhaust every opportunity to get get them someplace where they're a little better hidden but again you are you know things about the insult ability that I don't know um yeah I mean we've we've heard from Jerome but it I think that um we we need to hear from him again I think um I yeah I'm at a loss here because I'm picturing like this this um this place is like this is the last thing that they need to get open they've got yes the ducting is already in there and and who knows um you know what else so this is just so frustrating um because now here we are like it's not symmetrical or so you know and it's like they're going to you know that's what's uh and I totally agree with you you

070know that this is such a that that we're talking about this so far after the fact of when um we really could um do something without it um costing a lot of money and and delaying things um okay so so Jerome yeah why don't you come back up and like you can tell we're kind of frustrated with uh our options here uh cuz I don't I I feel like my options are like I accept this or kind of really ruin you know your guys you know next little process here so like how can is there anything besides those two options that you can think of because you know I I don't want to accept this and also you know we we don't want to just you know send you guys off in in some really

071bad Direction so what do you got that's that's something that we can well I mean we we do have an issue right we we can't lower the there's a code that prevents me from bringing those new code right probably not when those ones were put in the pretzel Bell I because it's a sidew walk it has to be at a at a 10t Mark or above that okay um for the fresh air intake yeah and the exhaust the exhaust uh excuse me I'm not a mechanical contractor I know a lot but not everything I I'm not exactly sure I just know that it has to be a certain distance from any opening yeah okay uh right right right and because there's that that doorway there that takes you into you know the actual Fritz building

072uh it it can't come down any lower than we wanted to make it more symmetrical with the exist existing furnace vent that comes out there that's painted the same color as the brick but they have to stay so many feet apart as well mhm um in terms of what other Solutions do I have and then you said you had explored more discreet uh hvat caps well let's let's hear what he's got to say before we go hold that thought okay um I don't believe from my knowledge right and and and the engineer the the HVAC engineer to go down say like to the street level and have a vent that that comes up is that an option that we explored we discussed it but we don't necessarily know how to make that happen because the

073Erv unit is located in the back of the other unit now that foundation wall is 28 in thick and to get two more ventilation pipes from up on the main floor down into the basement then over through the penetration you know through the foundation wall to the other side to get out maybe underneath one of those two windows uh is a astronomical cost and I don't I don't we wouldn't have the clearance because of the ceiling height and because all of our fire suppression is already installed we would have a remake of that as well um because we you know because it's all sprinkled it's all brand new everything yeah it's it's it's a the whole entire space is brought to new building code standards is it possible to well sorry so Ben uh just

074I'll ask my question and then we'll get to your question Ben so is it possible to make them more like all in one line the entire elevation the same we could the two fresh air vents we could raise up to make it in line with the exhaust vent okay all right well let's let's hold that thought that's something um it um okay and then um did you have a you were just was it a comment or did you want jome to say more about the the other ideas for you'd mentioned before that you had explored like more discreet HVAC caps some more discreet agback caps uh old school way of doing brick uh brick ventilation with bricks and it would have a it would have a fabric material on the inside so it look like

075a like a slot in the brick to receive air I'm not a mechanical engineer I don't know if that would require the opening to be larger or if it could be smaller I I can't answer that question but I think you know in from a design perspective if it was brick or or acted like brick right and gave that look and was painted the same color a as as the building is now mhm um that that might be something that's totally acceptable and blend right in um we had toyed with some round vents they still have louvers on them so they're still they're still noticeable but they're not nearly as noticeable as a dryer vent um they would be in more line elevation wise you know flush with the brick facade right so that they

076sat in uh that was another thought we had okay okay thank you for that Jerome does anyone else have any other questions comments right now I think we need to discuss some more appreciate it um okay so what I heard was that um well I didn't hear like okay we're going to remove them all um that's not happening it just I don't know it seems like there's a lot of water already in the bridge yeah I see that so um what I heard was that they could all be the same elevation um which you know we've already removed the historic brick I should have asked do you have the brick or um you'd have to to match the brick we would have to match the brick yeah right okay very good um okay so they

077could all be the same elevation um and they could all have a flush uh a flush vent cap instead of a protruding vent cap I also heard the potential for an inset that was masonry based and slotted so that it would look like the wall just had gills in it was I right about that that's right yes that that makes a lot of sense oh okay so not only is it flush but it has this sort of running bond sort of opening a big router and groove slits into the brick right when the paint goes on you see a flat wall little SLS yeah that's right I think that's that that would work all right so um so it's not only a flush vent cap but it's um a brick brick cutouts or something brick

078brick shaped cutouts are the cutouts brick shap yeah or is it the mortar the um it's fine brick shaped cutouts okay um all right so how's everyone feeling right now any comments on if you know based what if we put all those things in the in the motion I mean it's and and I think does the motion say I've heard Jerome say that they're painting it um to match I feel like I read that in the staff report does that okay so we've got that too so they're all the same elevation we're going to paint to match the color and they've got the brick shaped flush uh vent caps um they're not symmetrical um but um I mean I don't think symmetrical is really helping me at all and even if they're over the window

079when you're at the window you can't see them but when you're obviously like I can see the brick that's above the window from wherever this photo was taken so I don't feel like that's really even help you know it's it it'd be great if they were somehow aligned better but I think what I'm aware of now that I wasn't before is that these holes are I there's a there's an existing installed system already right here it's in there it's built around a lot of other limitations that he's got a lot of Hoops to jump through so this is just the last one so moving moving it to another part of the wall doesn't seem practical at all right right but I I think I think getting getting the texture consistent and the and the projection

080El I think that's a that's a decent compromise yeah I think it is a compromise I mean if if um you know if if well we are where we are so let's not uh let's not even go there okay so um I think we've heard everything but we need to get it in the motion and Ben once again is the uh the motion reader great Marian everything that you've heard so far are you uh up to speed on and and so are pay with are you asking for them to be at the same height or not yes all the same elevation and it sounds like they're going to be brought up the this to the same height as the uh that um the exhaust vent but I don't we don't even have to put that

081in just they should all be the same elevation um and then they can figure out which one you know how want to do that best um so the the the two things I see are all the same elevation and that the vent cap is flush with the wall with brick shaped cutouts so Ben I'll read that in the motion and then sure you don't have to read the whole motion I think you can just say where you're going to add no problem yeah so adding after three exterior Mason masonry penetrations for ventilation on the south South elevation with brick shap cut brick shaped cutout flush flush buun caps paint to match all at the same elevation that works for me okay um all right uh do we have any comments there or we kind of

082been through it okay let's take this to a vote all those in favor of the motion please say yes yes yes all those opposed say no okay the motion carries your application's been approved as amended thank you very much thank you yeah thank you very much have a good night apprciate [Music] that okay all right we're going to move on here we're heading to F2 it's 207 North State Street Mariana whenever you're ready please all right so this one um Commissioners received an updated agenda this is the one that had updates to the application um that were added today so I will highlight them uh but please bear with me there are a lot of kind of small things with this application so there is a lot going on um but just to start 207

083North State Street is a two-story building with a gable roof and wood laap and shingle sighing the duplex first appears on the 1925 sandborn fire Insurance map um according to earlier sandborn Maps there was a single family house at the address before 1925 on the map the 207 North State Street is shown as a frame building with a porch and a street and a porch on the street facing elevation the same footprint and configuration are shown on the 1948 sandboard map so there were no major structural changes um During the period of significance there have been limited changes post 1945 um including two small covered entrance porches on the North and side North and South sides of the house near the rear the exact date of these is unknown but they do not appear on

084any of the sandborn maps or 1973 building permits according to the building permits in 1973 the fire escapes on the front and the back of the house were rebuilt and expanded it's unclear if they were present before 1973 so this house is located on the west side of North an Street of North State Street south of cath Street and North of East and street right a lot of things here so the applicant seeks HDC approval to add two Dormers one on either side of the roof cable the applicant also seeks HDC approval to add egress windows at the basement install skylights on the roof remove the non-historic entrance porch on the south side and add two new entrance doors at the back of the house additional proposed Works includes removing the front fire escape rebuilding

085the exterior stairs at the rear mini split installation window replacement and removing the basement cover to extend the basement stairs and install a new person door and window at the South elevation so to recap all of that this is 207 North State Street I will start with the rear elevation um this is the back of the house the west side so there will be overall the the fire escape will be rebuilt and there will be some movement of the windows and doors on this elevation that I will highlight when we get to the drawings this is the north side entrance porch um which is proposed to be kept and then turned the stairs will be removed and then it'll be turned into just a porch for the [Music] unit this is the basement entrance with

086the cover that is proposed to be the cover is proposed to be removed and then the stairs extended another shot of the basement cover and then this right here is the other side entrance porch which you can see has been updated with this new siding couple other views of the porches another view of the back of the house and then the side um there these are historic windows for the most part these ones right here in the middle are inoperable and are proposed to be repaired um in the has saided that if there are any issues with the repairs um and they might need to be replaced that that will come at a later date but for now the proposal is to repair side of the house and that's another shot of the [Music] windows

087front of the house so you can see the this is the front fire escape that was added in 1973 which will be removed and will be um really great for the front of the house and then well again I'll talk about this when we get to the drawings but another change is that these four non-historic windows up here are proposed to be removed and then replaced with two new windows um in the same opening but then have some of the matching siding infill in between the two [Music] windows another shot of the porch and the fire escape okay so this is the East Elevation again the the big thing with this one is the Dormers um there'll be one on the noise side and one on the South Side so you can see them here

088and then the Eve um and so so this side this is the East side this will be kept the the roof Gable the outline of the roof be kept these are Dormers um not you know a true addition with more floor space the Southside the existing you can see the basement entrance as it exists now again here's the Dormer you can see the the new windows and then they are also proposing to add a skylight on the existing roof again the end of the roof cable will be kept you can see that here this on the South Side this is where the porch side entrance porch will be removed and then the existing door will be kept and then fixed in place two new egress windows are going to be are proposed to be added

089on this south side and then one new window and door where the basement steps will be extended and then you can see the cover has been removed back elevation um the fire escape kind of extends the entire length of this side of the house it's proposed to be removed and rebuilt it'll be rebuilt in a more compact way so that it won't be so wide and so noticeable um this door here is going to be removed the framing and trim will be kept but then it'll be infilled with matching siding this door will be kept then you'll see on the next on the proposed elevation that there will be a new door here and then windows and door new window and door up here as well so again those dormers on either side window and

090new door fire escape which is much more compact another new door and then there is an existing historic window here that is proposed to be removed um for this new door but then the window will be kept um carefully removed and then reinstalled down here in this original opening that does not currently have a historic window that one has been replaced um but is the same side and then we'll match this side of the house note um the new egress windows at the bottom and then mini splits are going to be installed they're going to be on all of the landing so they won't be attached to through the elevation itself any ventilation will go through the roof north side at as it exists this is the side entrance Port that will be kept so

091you can see that it will be kept but the stairs will be removed um so it'll really just be a a balcony um we have the egress windows at the bottom in the basement again the Dormer and then this new Skylight and these are windows that will be repaired we have some floor plans basement again please note that this new entrance will be extended and then the door will be below grade first floor second floor third floor so there was a lot there um staff appreciates the remediation effort of the applicant to remove the non-historic egress stairs on the front of the house um staff feels that the size location and design of the propos proposed Dormers follow design guidelines to the extent possible um and staff overall recommends approval of the work except for

092the two egress windows that are closest to State Street on the North and South elevations uh because of their visibility from the street so again a lot there happy to go back through things um clarify and then the applicants are here as well thanks okay thank you for the staff report Mariana I appreciate that there there is really a lot um in there so yeah we'll probably have questions for you as we go but in the meantime let's move forward with the um with the uh Review Committee report commissioner ka yeah so I think the first impression that one gets when they come up to this when you come up to this house is that it is currently encapsulated by very old fire escapes most of which I think it's a coin toss and safety

093whether you stay in the fly or use the the stairs that they're they're rickety so the effort of the owner to uh bring a new logic to to emergency egress is is is I think going to bring a huge Improvement to the house um it seems like what's being proposed is more systematic and and it's going to clean up the face of the house um um you can see that in some places the original Windows have these really interesting tall narrow three pane vertical you can just see if few Zoom it's hidden a lot by storms but so there are places where where um they they still exist in the house and and the owner is trying to keep them on in on location where where they have to be removed for the the uh

094the doors and and the escapes to put them in in places where a window historically has just been removed is great um okay I think that's all I've got um can you just comment uh on the um on the like so how close is the sidewalk you know like because there the staff report brought up the um the ESS windows on either side so do you have a feel for when you're there is the house very close to the sidewalk do you would you know you have a comment on that or you don't have to you don't want I'm curious that from the staff H I don't I don't know that that struck me just personally like it didn't hit me so um I can't comment that very good mind okay um okay thank you

095commissioner Kaplan um we will now uh move on to applicant comments is the applicant here yes oh great uh would you please approach the podium provide your name and address for the record and you've got minutes to speak you you've heard uh some comments so far and please uh let us know what you're thinking okay so my name is Ean Shen U my address is 4051 Breakwater Drive in Oker Michigan so yeah I appreciate community help and give a lot of suggestion and uh including the material and the sound brilant uh suggestion to swap the uh safe the historic window and yeah we we will clear the face of the house to make it looks better and uh just the eras window because I study for a few back uh case back and I saw

096people like put the ER window about 5 ft away from the street so that's why I try to make a a equ as far as possible so uh to fit um to to follow the a guideline I saw previously so so if you have any problem like a the E between the two houses to uh so the south side of the E I saw I think it's not very it's not noticeable from the street and the north side is more because L is a dryway but I try to have it as away from the street as possible so I would like to hope that we can have a great window layer yeah that's my comment okay thank you um does anyone have any uh any questions um one one moment please sure there's there's is

097a lot going on you're doing quite a lot of work here so um okay so on on one of the side porches this was a change you were going to remove the side porch but now you're keeping one of the side porches yes there are two side porches one North and the South one so we will keep this one you're going to keep yes yeah and and you're going to remove the stair MH and what is what is what's going to be there where the stair is right now will add a railing to stop people falling from the platform so it's just like a porch little porch okay so um what's the railing going to look like is it on the drawings uh no no because it's new when the s similar suggestion so I

098haven't put that in the drawing yet had it so it's like a just a like a two uh horizontal one and the two vertical one yeah there there's an there's a um there's an example in the standards and and and you just make sure that get approval from the from uh Jill or Mariana um but that what you're talking about sounds like um that's the appropriate um but we we can't since it's not drawn there's we we can't approve it um but uh okay so so is the door going to remain or the door's going to switch to a window here no it's Remain the door remains okay I couldn't tell from the drawings okay all right um and and so like on the other side where you are removing the porch um there's going

099to be you know siding and trim and stuff like that that that won't be there you know when the porch is gone there'll be like blank spots you know where the porch was so what are you what are you going to infill those blank spots with so actually it's no we just remove so the the door is still there yeah okay so is there siding or something like well you have to to add siding or trim are you planning to just match existing if you need to yeah if match ex if we if we need to but I don't think there is anything we need to yeah because the porch is attached to maybe just the foundation part okay okay um okay and so can we look at the basement floor plan please all right

100so um I mean in the staff report they talked about the the egress uh here so um we just um before we um you know discuss if it's appropriate it's really nice to know like is there another way that you could have laid out the basement where um you could have had um you know the erress Windows like the bedrooms may be further away from the street or something like that um is is it possible that the the the communal area could have been um on the on the East is that the yeah the east side of the or you know what why do the bedrooms have to be there I guess is the the question uh-huh H so so like you saw there are four bedrooms to the north side of the house mhm

101so I try to make the window as far as far yeah I see that right you you shifted it over yeah mhm that's so maybe I can still move it a little one or two ft back a little to a range the wall on the south side but yeah just the room well a little bit weird not very natur shaped but yeah if you want me to do that we can move another one or two fet yeah I guess that I was thinking that it'd be nice if you could move the where the kitchen and the couches are into the um east side of the house but I see that you need the egress stair down there so then we would have the egress stair at the front of the house which we don't want

102that fire yeah so um you know it's just good to to go through and make sure that um that there's not an obvious change that then would allow for the egress Wells to be pushed back okay um okay and then in the first floor plan it just looks like you know right now you have two front doors but it it uh I suppose that is one of the front doors just being locked in place or is okay all right you're you're leaving it there it's just okay just Blu on the inside got it okay those were my questions did anyone else have any anything okay but thank you for answering those questions take a seat we might we might bring you back up in a second but for now we got to go to the

103public hearing so um the public hearing is now open for this application at 207 North State Street um I don't see anyone approaching the podium here Julia do we have anyone there are no hands raised virtually at this time okay so no one no one's hitting star n on this one okay well we'll move on then we'll close the uh the public hearing portion for this application and I will ask um if there's any commissioner would like to make a motion sure okay even though it's Ben's job it's in there somewhere thinking about it we like to it's it could be uh so so we've got two yeah two possible um I'll just read the first one yeah the ESS windows were were taken out and so we we could just go through it separately

104I suppose yeah I moov the commission issue a certificate of appropriateness for the application at 207 North State Street a contributing property in the old Fourth Ward his historic district to add two Dormers remove the egress stairs on the front elevation rebuild the egress stairs on the rear elevation uh install Mini Splits at the rear of the house add skylights to the roof install new entrances and infill openings on the rear elevation remove Southside porch remove the stairs on the North side porch and install a new railing on the condition that the railing follows the design guidelines extend the basement stairs and add a new person Door and Window remove the non-historic Windows on the third floor of the front elevation and replace them with siding that matches the historic and two new windows provided

105that the new windows are approved by staff repair the Second Story windows on the North elevation install three new egress windows on the west elevation and install three new egress windows on the basement of the north elevation and one on the south elevation with the uh exception of the windows closest to North State Street on the south uh on the drawings as proposed the work is compatible in exterior design Arrangement texture material and relationship to the rest of the building and surrounding area meets the Secretary of interior standards for rehabilitation and guidelines for rehabilitating historic buildings in particular standards 29 and 10 and the guidelines for building site additions roofs wood windows mechanical systems health and safety and entrances and porches as well as the Ann Arbor historic district design guidelines for all additions residential

106additions roofs wood windows mechanical equipment and residential porches God that was exhausting that was a very long motion thank you for reading that why was that so long do we have a second done okay great so that was moved by commissioner Smith and seconded by commissioner Kaplan um yeah that was long I guess because there is just a lot to do here and just so the applicant knows what we're doing here we we're we're going through this motion um with the those two egress windows separated out um after we vote on this uh we're going to discuss them separately so so in this motion they're not in this motion says that we're approving everything except those two um except those two egress windows after this we're going to have a separate motion just for those

107two egress windows and we will vote yes or no on those so that's the process here right now we're just discussing um the motion which was for everything except those two windows is that what you feel like you read yeah yeah right I'm not really sure what that word salad was but I just read what was written yeah okay well let's just make sure then um because I feel like that's what was we've got Dormers removing the egress stairs on the East Elevation rebuilding the egress stairs on yeah with the exception of the windows wait closest to North let's see yeah install three new egress windows on the basement of the north elevation and one on the south elevation with the exception of the windows closest to the North State Street on the drawings yeah

108so this this motion is everything but that okay so um can we just go to the west elevation maybe that's the rear elevation um I I guess let's let's talk about this elevation um first uh it's the rear-facing elevation I mean there's none of this will be seen from the public right away um I feel like it's an improvement more or less to what's there anyway uh so I'm not hearing any any major comments um regarding this one okay okay so then I guess the north and south are kind of similar where we have these uh Dormers the Dormers are set back did you get a feel for when you're there like what's the impact of the Dormers I mean I think you'll see them from the back but it it come out in the

109site visit that there had been some discussion already between the owner and Jill and the suggestion was to bring the Dormers back behind the chimney which these plans clearly uh armor mhm okay A lot of times there's a you know you bring the roof line through on the Dormer uh it it looks like there's a trim band or something that's going to be there mhm um is it called out on the other on the North side maybe I I don't I want cuz that's not are are you talking about below here that what yes what is that that is the eve the overhanging eve of the existing roof oh good okay it it's drawn as if that is removed and like a new trim board is put in its place but really that Eve and

110overhang is going to extend all the way through correct oh that's great okay that's good cuz then that really shows that the Dormer is an addition um which is what differentiates it as a something new from the historic which is what we like because that's what the standard says uh to do so that's good okay so um so then in that case um besides the uh besides you know the the egress window that we're not talking about anything on the the the North or South elevations uh worth commenting on okay um let's look look at the the the north actually as well just real quick here North new okay so um yeah I'm not seeing anything here so let's take a look at the front elevation that's the East okay so really I mean the

111the big change here is that That Hideous fire escape is being removed which is you know the staff report already mentioned and and we would Echo that it's you know that's that's a huge Improvement I I know that we're doing I'm just curious like where there there's a lot of um of heat pumps being added but I'm still seeing the uh the AC the through thewall AC is that is the through thewall AC on the front elevation going to remain in place or is that being we will um we can remove that it it it I'm just curious it's not anything that is going to change the proposal for me I was just wondering because you're adding all the these heat pumps if it was great oh we can remove all the uh through the

112wall seat I think we can keep it layer and just see your from inside we don't need that open for AC anymore so that's going to be removed okay um all right and then the windows that's a new um a new addition to us uh we're just seeing that now but um to me that seems much more appropriate than um than what is there for a front elevation of a historic home and um I think that uh the window do we have do we know what window that is Mariana do we have something in the staff report no these are the ones that were just added today and so we don't have all of the details um so do we know that they're they're um are they wood windows with all the same with the

113North and the South and they're they're the same they match the north south the they match all the other windows we I think we'll we'll ask that these windows um come through for staff approval since they are on the front elevation yeah so how do we are you asking that right now or do we need to do something in the motion it's it's in the motion right now motion specifically for these windows that they should have staff approval got it okay that seems um I mean I'm not okay so I'm just looking at the the window information okay they're the gelwin oh yeah yeah yeah okay I just need to remind myself they're they're clad wood windows um okay all right okay so then um well that's the whole we went all the way around

114so um sorry there was just so many things going on it just seemed like good to go elevation by elevation um all right so I really didn't hear any there any pause okay so so then let's go to a vote on this motion and then we'll talk um ESS Windows okay so um all those in favor of the motion please say yes yes all those post please say no okay so that motion carries uh that part of the application has been approved so everything except the the two eress windows and and um commissioner Smith can I ask you since you yes okay uh for the egress windows nearest State Street I move that the commission issue a certificate of appropriateness for the application at 207 uh North State Street a contributing property in the old

115Fourth Ward historic district install a new egress uh install new egress windows on the basement of on the North elevation located 6 ft and 3 in from the front elevation uh and one on the south elevation located 6 ft from the front elevation as proposed the work is compatible and exterior design Arrangement texture material in relationship to the rest of the building the surrounding area meets the Secretary of interior's standards for rehabilitation and guidelines for rehabilitating historic buildings in particular standards 29 and 10 and the guidelines for Windows as well as the an arbor historic district design guidelines for Windows second that was moved by commissioner Smith and seconded by commissioner Calderone um what what does anyone think about this we've heard from staff that it's like uh questionable so any thoughts I did dredge

116some back up one of the things that doesn't show from the drawings the proximity of these houses to one another they're pretty close together yeah and so even something fairly close to the front isn't the the intrusion on a passer by's Vision that it would be because there's the corner of a neighboring house on either side that kind of that's what's occupying your field of vision most sure so I think it's it's it's less it's it's less obvious here than it might be in a in a in a house that's sort of more out there by itself yeah I mean the the egress window thing is always hard to kind of imagine what it's going to look like um and so um you know it's it's just this little thing sticking up you know but

117you really see sometimes they they really um you know you they they really draw your eye um but I guess knowing that the you know the the the the houses are close together it it would draw your eye less I believe can this is kind of nice how it's lined up here on the North elevation is it is that where the six and the 67 come into play or no they don't have this oh wait oh yeah that 63 sorry it's kind of lined up um yeah come come if if you have a comment here you approach the podium though the sound side of the elevation now there a fire escape so it's really ugly and something just overlayer so I think we replace it with the equ window nobody work yeah be better okay

118that's a good point yep okay thank you all right um I'd like to hear from someone else commissioner Smith or or Cal you what are your thoughts on I mean you know particularly on the the uh South elevation you know you can't get worse than what's there now yeah uh you know I I I don't think it's going to be particularly problematic it'll be a little bit more and I'm just looking at the Google street view photos which were taken this April you know it'll be a little bit bit more noticeable uh you know do I I mean it's it's student rentals like driveways kind of you know it's not particularly aesthetic in between those two houses on the on the North side either I don't really have a tremendous issue with it yeah yeah

119I think there's something about this neighborhood that you kind of expect to see it at this it's it is what it is I guess um it's uh it's removable or reversible you know um I mean I I feel like it's a fine trade-off to get rid of the fire escape on the front of the building the side of the building that you can see yeah I I think that U um and it is a bedroom for someone I mean you know if if you say oh you can't have uh an ESS window in this of setting um you're talking about removing a building versus other a bedroom versus other settings and so not that that's our purview really at all but it's um part of the you know I mean I'm it I'm sure it

120factors into having the money to do the project and you know and to keep this building looking looking nice yes okay um all right uh commissioner coldon do you have a comment on the the egress window no I mean I would agree with all the comments said uh what's going to be changes what what would be changed would be for the better and then on on on the other side of the the house back to the comment it's you have the alleyway you have the separation between the two so your eye won't be brought down it'll be brought forward okay all right well um let's move this to a vote here all those in favor of the motion please say yes yes yes all those opposed P say no uh the motion carries your application's

121been approved thank you thank you um and so now we're going to move on here to F3 it's 203 North State Street right next door um Mariana the staff report please yes we are right next door and it is the same applicant so it it is a very similar project um there are similarly a lot of the same things happening there are still a lot happening um but a lot of it looks like what we just saw at 207 North State um but just to give a quick overview 203 North State Street is a two-story frame house with a gable roof that fronts State Street behind the main twostory section there is a 1 and a half story section and then a one story section behind that this is how the house appears on the

122sandborn fire Insurance Maps beginning in 19 25 um by 1948 the house also had the two one-story bump outs on the south elevation these are still extent and feature decorative cornices and brackets there have been no major changes to the structure of the house since the period of significance at some point before 1969 the house was resided later some non-historic decorative elements were added such as the faux Shutters on the East Elevation the front facing elevation again house is located on the west side of North State Street south of Catherine Street and on the North and North of East Ann Street it is a corner lot on North State and East Ann Street so the applicant seeks HDC approval to add a second story rear addition the applicant also seeks approval to remove the non-historic

123sighting on the house and restore the historic sighting below as much as possible additional work would include hanging compatible Shutters on the front elevation installing new egress windows on the north and west elevations installing mini splits and building the ER stairs on the North elevation for safety so going through this is the front elevation where you can see the um kind of faux shutters vertical boards that were added and then this is the non-historic sighting that is proposed to be removed um it does look like the house has a lot of additions but this is actually the same shape and overall structure that it has always been um and then these are the bump outs that were added um before the period of significance ended the addition is proposed to be a second story Edition

124right here above this rear um this rear most one-story section of the house um this is a corner lot so it will be visible but it is at the rear of the house uh just another kind of shot of that um similar to the last one this overhang um will be kept so that you can see where the historic roof line was just another shot of this area that will have the addition this is the basement stairs as and basement entrance as they currently are um which the applicant is proposing to remove this cover and then extend the basement stairs and add a new door and ESS window is that different than what was originally I thought they were moving it yes yeah they're also moving the stairs that's what's a that's so it's proposed

125sorry for interrupting no no you're you're fine um so they they're proposing to remove the cover and then move yes move the stairs closer to an Street yes yeah sorry I'm getting confused with the last one um again here's a closer shot of the front elevation which will look much nicer without these vertical boards and without the non-historic sighting and then just a note that this is um from the basement and so this is what the historic sting will look like um and that is what the applicant will match um we'll repair as much as possible but we match if needed if some of the existing sighting underneath the non-historic sighting is not repairable uh fire escape which will be rebuilt um to be more structurally sound egress windows will be added here we'll see

126them on the drawings this is a shot of the back of the house where the rare addition will go so again front of the house as it exists and then the proposed with the wood shutters which will be hung around the windows and not installed directly into the facade um with the siding removed existing South elevation and then you can see the addition um on this South elevation again at the rear of the house but this is a corner lot it will be the roof will be higher than this middle section but it will be lower than the front section and again you can see the overhang North Side um here are the eras windows that are proposed here is the rebuilt stair in the same location same material same overall look but will be

127more structurally sound again installation of Mini Splits these will be on the landing and not in the installed into the wall and again any new ventilation will go through the roof and then we have a few new um skylights west elevation as it exists now with this uh basement stair and then the basement cover and then as you can see there's a new egress window that will be that is proposed to be installed and then the stair moved closer to an Street the cover will be removed but this railing will extend up above grade the door will will be below grade um here is again the new addition again overhang basement floor plan you can see this new entrance here first floor second floor this is a photo uh 1969 photo so the non-historic sighting

128was added um pre 1969 not sure exactly when and then the vertical boards as you can see were added after here are some of the applicant photos um Hardy plank is proposed to be the siding on the new addition not on the rest of the house where the non historic sighting will be removed and then repaired and replaced as necessary the shutters then we've been through the standards um and a lot of the guidelines are similar to the last one um so again lots of things going on uh again I note that this is a corner lot um but overall staff finds um kind of similar findings to the last one that staff appreciates the remediation efforts particularly of removing the non-historic sighting and then adding the shutters rather than the vertical boards that are

129there now overall staff a finds that the application is appropriate except for the egress windows again the ones nearest North State Street and the moving of the basement entrance closer to Ann Street so that it will be more visible thank you thank you very much for the staff report it's much appreciated um okay so uh we'll go to the Review Committee report um commissioner kapan um I'm trying to think about what we mostly talked about we spent most of our time talking about the the nature of adding the story to the back and turning the middle part almost it starts to look like a hyphen like something we would use when you're doing an addition and and and separating it from from the house but in this case it's not an addition it's it's existing

130historically appropriate and I didn't quite know what to think of that fair enough okay um let's um let's move now to applicant comments so with the applicant please approach the PO Podium provide your name and address for the record and you've got 5 minutes to speak but please uh comment on what you've heard so far okay my name is Ean Shen and uh my address is 4051 bre water dry in okus Michigan so my comment is uh um thanks for J uh suggestion we will remove the artificial sighting and reveal the historic sighting and uh from my point of view we add we add the addition and make a change the shutter in the front of a house and uh match the because now I see it's a little not balanced so add a second

131addition I think it can make it more like a normal building and the with the uh historic sighting and shter I think we can make this building more beautiful yeah mhm thank you and uh about a no side of the E it's match to the 207 so I think it's kind of same yeah we can like uh to match these two building is kind of good yeah the the staff report mentions that um the that uh staff does not think it's appropriate to be moving the um that basement egress stairwell towards an Street do you have a comment there yeah yeah I forgot about this so um I I move because they say we it shouldn't to move the non histor element closer to the street so that's why I remove the cover to make

132it not notice noticeable and I also put a picture for illustrate the future looks like so actually it could it can help to if we remove that you can see the building better yeah and it's blow gray so you won't notice that okay mhm the new entrance won't be noticeable from a street yeah well you'll see it from when you're standing in front of you yes okay M um all right um hold on a second second okay so um okay let's let's just focus on this right now then so so this stairway it it um I think that the the the issue with it is that the beginning of the stairway is starting closer to the street than the front facade of the house so this is a corner house so it really has two

133front fac facades it has the front on State and the front on and those are both front facades and so we don't want anything new to be in front of the of the a front facade a historic front facade especially so um so the question is can that it it it looks like Yeah from from the floor plan that you have the erress window which is nice but it looks like if you shift that door to where that egis window would be the basement floor plan is exactly the same so what we so what you're asking for here with this proposal is to do something that is against the standards so it's hard for us to say yes if you can easily move it you know what I'm saying I know I know so uh

134can we switch around so make it just reverse it to make the entrance from the back of the house from the north side of the house let's look at the floor plan right so there' be an ESS window next to the kitchen and then the um the stairway window is the original o opening door of the basement right now so I just think the the when you walk into the unit you will cross the whole living room that's this way uh makes me feel more natural so so to entering into the kitchen feels more natural I'm sorry I don't but we have a whole uh complete living room uh we can put a sofa and have a TV stand it's more complete y mhm if we have a door we can not have a sofa

135in the couch area so so I'm fine with if you want me to keep the original one it's also okay but for me I just read spend more money to have a better layout MH mhm but if we I can also keep the original one actually but just think it's better to if it's me leing in the basement it looks better for me I yeah I know we do these sort of compromises all the time where it's like because of the standards we actually have to do something that that isn't the ideal just think looking at the elevation and I just think can we switch around to make a entrance from the north side of the what if both the egress window and the doorway were part of sort of a larger window well and

136the stairs went the opposite direction so they weren't right at an street but they were yeah they were from the back but you then you you you wouldn't you wouldn't necessarily be entering you wouldn't be using that door but you could still get the same doorway as it is it's just now it's the stairs that move yeah but do we we want a larger that means a bigger that would be the tradeoff yeah and you can certainly put a shrub there cover it right it reduces the visibility from the street it makes it larger but all for my two cents yeah what are your that's a I think that would be preferable what describe it again so so Steve tell me if I I'm understanding what you're saying can we look at a floor plan

137maybe yeah so this all and maybe this door can even move a little bit but having the stairs go that way and this all just be part of the stairway but I don't know if that's going to work with the the clearance you would need for an erress window but do it doesn't need to necessarily be an erress window because there's a door we don't need yeah okay yeah I think that what it my vote would be to just move everything up the drawing such that the front of the stair is go back to the yeah but why the front of the stair there looks like it's how come it's sticking out there to take this and bring it back here yeah but I I propose another way you walk down the stair you want

138to mirror it instead okay that's better for you okay so the the applicant is asking us to mirror it so then will will this Riser here be like over here somewhere M the same distance right like so it's this it's going to be over here okay which we have a a thing there anyway okay that's that's that's what uh is being proposed um and it's clearly better than what's there because what's there there's something in front of the front facade now we can just we'll we'll discuss what you've just proposed that also makes it kind of easy because we have you know we can we can visualize it yeah okay before you go um okay any other comments on this well okay for the applicant on this part right here okay cuz I just want

139to make sure can we go to the South elevation yeah so um I think this is just a drawing thing but I just want to make sure this little bit right here this is the existing roof overhang and this facade is in from that and I think that this roof is going to extend a bit out right there there's an existing overhang right here you're not just chopping that off right that that you're going to keep that it's not drawn but I just want to make make sure that it's it's going to be there there's another part of a drawing where you did Draw Something exactly like that if you skip through the the elevations go back not in that one something like this right so see how that roof comes over okay so now

140go go back to the the South new okay right so so that that's going to be there it that made a big difference for me in my head looking at it cuz it just looked like smooshed in between but it's not smoos this is actually back right going to the overhang is going to envelop right this second story here a little bit it makes it much more palatable comp cuz I when I first saw it I was like that doesn't look right um it looks um like it's not subordinate surpressed exactly okay okay so that's good um and that that was my other question I think does anyone have any other questions for the applicant um I don't see any so take a seat we might call you back up but thank you for answering

141those Yan um okay so now uh we go to um we go to the public hearing and um let's open the public hearing for this application it's 203 North State Street I don't see anyone here um do we have anyone raising star n hitting star n there are no hands raised at this time thank you very much I think we'll have a party if anybody's everever on there well it's it's feast or famine like it's either no one or we have 20 people on the line so yeah um okay the public hearing portion of the application is now closed and I will will ask um if anyone would like to make a [Applause] motion go for it thank you yeah excellent I move that commission issu certificate of appropriateness for the application of 203 North

142State Street contributing property in the old Fourth Ward historic district to add 180t second floor rear Edition remove the non-historic sighting and repair the stor sighing remove a faux shutter at the front elevation replace them with wood shutters rebuild the egress stairs in the north elevation install many splits at the rear of the house and install three new egress windows on the basement of the north elevation with the exception of the one closest to North State Street on the drawings as proposed the work is compatible and exterior design Arrangement Arrangement texture material and relationship to the rest of the building and the surrounding area and meets the Secretary of interior standards for re Rehabilitation the guance for rehabilitating historic buildings in in particular standards 29 and 10 and the the guidelines for building site addition

143roofs wood windows mechanical systems and health and safety as well as the Nar historic district design guidelines for all all additional residential additions roof wood windows and mechanical equipment Second Great okay so that was um proposed by commissioner calar on seconded by commissioner Smith and this this was for everything except for the new basement door stair half wall handrail so that what we were just talking about um and that basement window on that that back elevation and the egress window nearest to State Street on the North elevation so um basically everything except for what we were just talking about mirroring and um so I was also a little surprised to to to hear that um that staff was uh saying that the um this the Second Story addition was appropriate and I just wonder if

144if staff can comment on uh Mariana do do you were you involved in those discussions or or or do you know um cuz I would just say typically when we see a rear elevation when it's a Gable situation like this the the rear Gable the addition is um lower or or at least the same height as the adjacent Gable now there's the other front Gable it's lower than that is that what's going on here or do you can you just uh sh shed some light on on the appropriateness of the Second Story Edition sure um yes well this is um one that staff feels is appropriate as much as possible um it is it is a difficult one because it's a corner lot um we worked with Tina on multiple iterations of this and this

145is the one that we felt was most appropriate um it is lower than the front than than the primary Gable um it is you're right it is higher than this middle one um and this this house is a unique kind of mish mash of different sections even though that is how it's always been um so yes I I don't think it's a a clearcut support um and that is something for the commission to decide ultimately if this is an appropriate addition for a corner lot even though it is a rear and a lot of these questions would maybe be different if it wasn't a corner lot um but yes I I'll say that staff finds it appropriate as much as possible thank you very much any anyone want to comment on the uh I mean

146you made a comment that was the first thing you felt initially hit me not so much that it it didn't imagining what it was going to be look like look like built didn't strike me as as oh my God this is going to be in high sore so much is it just the same thing that hit you sort of this is I don't I don't know how to fit this into the the the logic that we've normally um applied to houses but what I would say is when you're looking at this house on site I think what important is that sense of sequence of articulation and the fact that the third section along an street is uh is um it's still differentiating from the section preceding it the fact that it differentiates itself um as

147being higher versus lower I I don't I don't know that that seriously degrades the the feeling of the house when you're looking at it from fair enough I I think that the um yeah so is it differentiated yes because it's the the roof line is going to be there um like the original first story roof line and then it's going to be Hardy versus whatever is underneath you know probably Cedar clabber or something it's it's um will it look like an addition I mean cuz what you described I don't know will it look like an addition do you think well the answer is got to be yes obviously I think You' say think that's the hard part is that even though this is original you know the back part of that house all looks like

148additions you know that were at at a different time and you know so like considering that context I think you know the height is an interesting question is like you're going to have three different heights there and it mhm you know is it it's just different you know I don't know that I I mean maybe it degrades the the historic character of it a little bit but you know I mean I feel like it's such a small portion of what that house is yeah I guess yeah I think that that that you make a good comment there is it is it degrading it I I think it is but we're also getting um you know we're getting the the the exposed original sighting which will probably have a much bigger effect right than I mean

149when you look at it from a certain angle you're going to be curious I think but but then the the siding I think will have a big effect from State Street and from the corner um yeah I think it's it's just not how they would have historically built it where you have the big main house then you have the small addition then you would have something smaller like is here and now we're going to have big small medium um so uh yeah I think Dave in my mind is that the width of that is so subordinate to the other two pieces that you know probably something that that I'm more comfortable with at least intellectually thinking about it as being subordinate to the rest of the original structure yeah and I I think that it's

150it's just a little I agree and and that it's it's bumped in a little bit too I think is really saving me here because if it wasn't it would be it's going to be awkward I think because it's narrow you know it's like this narrow tall like that's not really what you would see normally but um maybe that will just make it read like an addition yeah even more could we see the elevation again thank you all right which elevation oh the one the one we just had open before this I Dave I also think that it could be you know some of that feeling could be tempered with some landscaping around that you know around that corner um if it is it that I don't think that we can make a call based on

151Landscaping unfortunately yeah would it feel better if it was pushed in like 6 to 6 in to 1 foot on the left side just was brought in a bit more so you had more of that roof condition it it um I I think so um but also that you would need a beam to support that all the way across and then two two posts on either side of the beam yeah that that would seen that and it it adds a lot of money to the construction I think it looks good when you do that but it's probably not wasn't proposed that way because of the that extra cost uh in structure um okay um all right so I guess we've we've discussed um it doesn't seem like someone's saying like we can't do this for

152this reason so um let me just check my notes real quick to make sure there isn't anything okay all right so um just making sure that we've discussed it all so let's look at the uh let's just look one one time through the all the the elevations here so I feel like we've discussed this one can we go okay so um yeah I think this is this is a huge Improvement and meeting the standards quite well um let's go to the yeah South okay North new Okay so we've got on the table here on this motion all the ESS Windows except for the one on the far left there um okay a new a new Skylight um all right okay uh then let's I guess we just have the rear elevation left okay all right

153so in this we're we're ignoring the the the basement okay so I I think we've discussed everything that we need to discuss all right so let's um let's go to a vote here on this motion all those in favor of the motion please say yes yes all those opposed please say no okay so that that motion carries that that part of the application's been approved um can we have the next motion please sure um and you've heard what the applicant has sort of already proposed so if you can in you know kind of as you're going feel you could just read it and when we'll we'll critique it or you can in real time sure make the change yeah yeah uh for the new basement door stair half wall and handrail and the basement e

154gr window on the west elevation so I move that the commission issue certificate of appropriateness for the application of 203 North State Street contributing property in the old fourth W historic district to remove the basement covering relocate the basement entrance and west elevation including the door and stair install new eress windows in the west elevation install an ESS window in the north elevation 6 ft and 3 in from the front elevation as propose the what the work is compatible in exterior design Arrangement texture material and relationship to the rest of the building in the surrounding area and meets the Secretary of interior standards for rehabilitation and guidelines for rehabilitation historic buildings in particular standards 29 and 10 and the guidelines for Windows and entrance and porches as well as the NR historic district guidelines for

155all windows and residential porches do we have a second second okay that is a move by commissioner called rone seconded by commissioner Kaplan um all right so let's let's uh I suppose we want to have language that says that the um the window and the egress stair plus door will be mirrored from what's drawn mhm yes the entrance will come from the nor the stairs will come from the north not from the south yeah um do you want to yeah to remove the basement covering relocate uh the basement entrance from uh on the West Side to come from the north to the South including doors and stairs install a new Eis window on the well what you say at that part probably west elevation sorry I forgot what's happening with the new Eris window in

156that scenario well the whole everything is getting mired mhm so remove the basement covered covering relocate the basement entrance and west elevation and the new egis window in the west side to be reversed from north to south right you said the egress window and the okay Mariana are did you get that enough yeah I mean just kind of okay and I'm sorry to make this complicated looking at what happens if we do that that window probably has to get smaller if that doesn't move but if it no this yeah so this is also getting here that's going to be here no it I I won't mirror that uh window but I will move a little bit sounds right to the right oh I see what you mean so yeah what I was talking about was

157like this doesn't necessar here this will come over a little bit this way just so that there's clearance of the stairs so this this section is getting mirrored yes and then and then this is just moving a little bit yes yeah okay and that'll all be within so that'll all be within this well you won't have another Well no yeah it'll just be within there okay well that's better because then that's one less well yeah and it's further away I mean it's it's what we wanted which was within you know the the front facade there beyond the front facade yeah okay so Mariana do you get that and do we need to say it somehow um I'm not sure we have the ability to say we can at this point it's 930 or something so

158to be clear the new person door will stay where it is as proposed the stairs will mirror and then the entrance will come from the north to the South the new egress window will stay on the north side of the house but may shift a few inch or stay on the north side of the new west side of the house well on North side of the door though oh I got it yeah yeah so it it'll be yes on the west side of the house but in still north of the door yeah not closer to an does that all sound correct it does sort of okay door stays where it is yeah stairs flip yep the ER window the new one stays on the same side of the door but may shift slightly for the

159stairs clearance there you go got it okay perfect cool that was really good thank God there's a smart one right thank you Mariana um okay so I heard nothing but posit posi regarding that um so great um now there there's the um there's the egress window that's let's just look at it I mean we we we had this I I don't want to spend too much time because we had this discussion uh we just had this discussion I have a feeling it's going to be very similar the other one yeah exactly okay um does anyone have any comments on this we because we've discussed but I just want to make sure it looks good okay all right Mariana are we good okay all right um okay all those in favor of this motion please say

160yes all those opposed please say no uh this motion also carries your application as amended has been approved okay congratulations thank you so much yes thank you take care of you Sean okay okay we do have one more hearing this evening it's F4 549 South First Street whenever you're available Mariana please all right so we are at 549 South First Street this home first appears in City directories in 1896 as the home of contractor Henry Kosh and his wife Mary Henry and Mary's Henry and Mary's son Harold was a founding member of the old west side Association the house is a two-story Gable fronter with Corner returns a brick chimney a second floor triple window facing the street a stone front porch with wing walls and round tapered half columns a front window with a

161Leed glass transom and a cutstone and natural stone foundation on the 1931 and 1948 sandborn fire Insurance Maps the rear wing of the house is a single story with a small covered porch infilling the northeast corner at some point the on story Wing received a second floor addition with a hip roof the site is located on the east side of South First Street North of West Madison and south of West Jefferson the applicant seeks HDC approval to remove the wood siding and trim reinsulate and install sheathing and then reinstall all salvageable exterior wood plus matching new siding and trim as necessary the applicant also proposes to remove and rebuild the deteriorated porch on the front of the house non- original materials would be removed and replaced with wood and original wood features that are Beyond

162repair will be replaced with matching materials in matching Dimensions please note that this application does not include the stone foundation and Cobblestone porch walls because they were approved to be rebuilt at the November 9th 2023 HDC meeting so that means that we just talking about the upper portions of the porch so the posts in the roof and then all of the siding so just a few shots of the elevation some of the historic sighting is in good condition some of the sighting um requires repair and then some of it has already been replaced with non-historic materials um the applicant has calculated that of the existing siding and trim 54% is non-historic or already rep approved for replacement again just some shots of the exterior and then some close-ups of the porch again the posts are

163deteriorating they are they are proposed to be replaced in kind um same thing with this uh handrail here and then the roof of the porch will be removed and then replaced with a roofing membrane and then any of the non-historic trim um around the roof line will be replaced with Boral siding or with Boral trim some more shots at the porch and then this is from the application just showing the locations where the sighing is either has already been replaced or is in need of repair is in good condition similar for the rest of the elevations some details for the porch the decking is proposed to be salvaged or replaced in kind an older shot of the house before the non-historic sighting was removed and then some in progress these are from the applicant this

164is the structure beneath the porch which is um a need of [Music] reconstruction more applicant photos again the Cobblestone and then the stone parts of the porch have already been approved for replacement or for reconstruction we've already walked through these standards um a couple for entrances and portes we've already talked about I will just read through the wood um it is recommended to identify retain and preserve wood features that are important in defining the overall historic character of the building such as sighting it is not recommended to remove or radically change wood features which are important in defining the overall historic character of the building it is recommended to repair wood features by patching piecing in and consolidating or otherwise reinforcing the wood um what I didn't mention before is that when the wood the

165existing wood siding the historic siding that is in good condition it'll be removed and then replaced and then put back on starting with the front elevation and then moving to the side elevations and then to the rear elevation so that the most visible parts of the house are receiving theor exciting uh some more that we've already talked about and the Arbor design guidelines are similar to the Secretary of State a secretary of interior standards for wood so I will leave those out um and I believe that that's all for me staff is Staff does um support and find the application appropriate great thank you very much for the staff report um let's get the Review Committee report so this was this is the first house I saw on a tour right here in November so

166uh looking at the work in progress was great that work with the stones is wonderful they're doing a lot of work on the inside one question that came up when we were discussing this on site um it looks like we do have architect here is that correct so the question that I had for you um the you know it's it's visible to see where the RO is on the front porch columns and and the stuff that they want to replace there makes perfect sense you can see why they're doing what they're doing with the replacement of the siding the current state of the house on the interior is it's completely raw stud stud walls and so for the purposes of insulation I'm wondering why you wouldn't spray something like closed cells polystyrene to the back

167of the existing siding as is um as opposed to pulling it all off and and insulating from or creating VAP Vapor be from the outside that seems like more work and we will we will get that uh answered in just a moment um is that the whole report the only so the only other point that I think is relevant there so let's say let's say there's an assessment right now of the existing sighting on the house that is already rotten and needs to be replaced and then there's the sighting that's really really good and then there's yeah what did you see on site did you see a mixed bag of all of that yeah but some that will that will turn from good serviceable sighting into unusable sighting in the extraction sure some of it's

168not going to make the process very good um okay thank you for the report um and now we will ask the the applicant uh please come forward state your name and address for the record um you have up to five minutes to speak you heard some comments and the staff report so um please let us know um what you have for us sure thanks yeah hello good to see you all again yes my name is Casey vet I'm with in parallel Architects and Builders um I am the principal architect on this project and also the project manager for the construction so I'm quite familiar with the progress I'm there almost every single day uh of the week so uh yeah I'm I'm happy to report we've made a lot of good progress and I feel

169like we're delivering on on the the promises that we made to the committee in the fall um and I believe we can continue to deliver on what we're asking uh to the of the committee here um you know I think big big picture and I want to address your question as well but kind a big picture our approach here with the siding uh is to to extend the life of the this historic building as much as we can um and uh to really protect the investment that the owner has made in restoring this house and uh modernizing the interior and so um our our ask is uh simply to U remove the uh as we as was said earlier roughly 50% uh of the sting that is not um otherwise already approved for remove removal

170non-historic or Beyond repair um so we we figure there's already 50% of it which is you know could be removed u i I would say without approval because it's either non-historic or it's it's just rotten or it's already been remove uh approved so we're asking to remove the remaining 50% simply to put up a vapor barrier um so it's really a correction um I'm not sure how it was communicated that the reason we're doing this is to insulate that's not that's not what we're asking nor is it true we can already insulate from the inside um but the vapor barrier I guess in our uh our our understanding is best performing when it's outboard of the sheathing uh up outboard of the substrate and behind the siding is there sheathing well there's there's 3/4 it's

171uh it's not it there's sheathing on some of the non-historic portions of the building and then there's 3/4 in in 1x8 uh boards boards cheating boards yeah um but effectively you know a substrate let's call it so you know our intention is to to put the vapor barrier between the siding and the substrate uh which is where it's you most commonly placed and so yes we definitely looked into the idea of spray foaming the interior first and then blowing in cellulose or some other blown in material but um we're leery of that and because we as I said we really want the vapor barrier to be outboard of the sheathing or the substrate uh we don't want to trap that um you know between the the the spray foam and the siding we'd rather have

172that be out outboard so you know it it it's it's taken us a while to get to where we're you know we're convinced this is the right ask um you know as as you know we're now many months into the project um and I guess our feeling is given you know we're already halfway to having this siding off um with careful careful removal of the existing siding uh we would be able to salvage enough of it to where we could uh appropriately put it back onto the building as was mentioned starting with the the elevation that's on the screen now which would be the most visible then moving to the South which is the second most visible um and then to the North and then to the east the least visible um so you know

173all I can say is we would do our absolute best to remove it without uh destroying it to salvaging it carefully storing it putting on the vapor barrier and putting it back up and um for the the amount of siding that would need to be uh replaced uh with new we would match uh the existing siding with new wood siding that gets painted so we're not asking to change the material in any way just asking to to match it so that's the sighting piece I'm happy to speak about the the porch as well um I'm not sure if if you'd like to discuss them separately or if if I should just go through the just go through it yeah okay so the porch um we're as was mentioned we're really asking to replace the uh

174columns which are rotten uh they're I really do think that would have to be a replace I did happen to notice uh this morning that the tops of these columns are actually foam um so I'm not I'm not sure these are the original yeah actually you can see in this picture in the top right there's a hole uh that was bored through the top of that column um the the actual the the main body of the column is indeed wood but the tops are foam so I'm not sure these are the original columns to begin with um but as our application States we our intent would be to match to match them uh and uh but that might you know we might want to look into that that a little bit more in terms of

175what the original columns were versus what these are um but in any case our intent would be to match them the M everything above the columns has been wrapped in either aluminum or vinyl uh I I anticipate the original materials are probably there I I would be surprised if they're not already rotten when we tore off the uh aluminum around the facial boards and the sfet the material was rotten and uh it was not able to be salvaged so my expectation is that that's what we'll find but if we are able to salvage the material if it's not already rotten we would Salvage it um otherwise we're proposing to uh to install uh let me just make sure I get the material right here yes we're proposing to install U Boral facial boards which would

176match uh the already approved new window trim on some of the um non-historic windows on the rear uh and which would match the requested um uh replacement of the uh existing window trim in our application today which is I should mention is also wrapped in aluminum so wood there's wood window trim which we believe was the original uh trim on underneath wood or excuse me underneath arum aluminum wrap um again there um we would Salvage what we can and replace uh what cannot be salvaged would be our approach uh and then the lastly is the roofing material on top of the roof there was a picture is a metal uh and our proposal is to replace that with a membrane roof uh one of our photos showed the kind of panelized metal roof uh a

177top the porch yeah there's one yeah um yeah I believe that's the general summary um let me just look here if I have anything else to add um yeah thank you question thank you Casey you're question for you um regarding the um the removal of this the reason for the removal of the siding being the vapor barrier um and I I understand um I understand that um but I think of equal concern would be an air barrier and I'm just wondering is that is that something that you're cuz uh I feel like the foam gives you a vapor barrier and an air barrier not in the right place like you're saying um now when you're removing the siding are are you are you thinking air barrier or just Vapor Barrier um what can you explain

178a little more what you mean by air oh just like something that's prevent like the something that's preventing the uh actual air being uh going in and either exfil you know infiltration exfiltration through the um through the envelope I want to get too technical but just yeah air going in and out of the wall sure yeah that so we have definitely considered an open cell spray foam on the inside of the walls okay um which would which is vapor permeable um closed cell spray foam is not and so we tend to uh as a practice not uh specify that on on walls okay um we've had an we've had admittedly we've had an issue finding uh a uh insul an insulator who will do the open cell foam seems like many of the insulators are

179are moving just to close cell foam so that has in part dissuaded us from from that approach I'm not saying we're decidedly not doing it or doing it yet I'd say we're still looking into whether we'll use the open cell foam uh orig that was our plan to use open cell foam uh and at the time we didn't think that removing the siding would be an option um and so as I said as we've learned more about the building we now know how much of the siding was either not historic to begin with as well as just rotten and not salvageable um so that's uh that's kind of What's led us here um my uh you know again I still feel even if we were to do the open cell foam we would still want

180a vapor barrier outside of the the substrate and and so I I think our ask would still be the same whether or not we do uh you know one or the other and and then last point is you know we've actually found that the 3/4 in siding is is buted together or substrate side is is buted together very well we were expecting to find gaps and you know actually um so in terms of air you know getting getting through that I think it's a lot less than we initially anticipated it would be okay um are there other questions for Casey okay why don't you take a seat we might call you back up but for now we're going to do the public hearing so let's open the public hearing for 549 South First Street um

181no one approaching the podium because uh it's only Casey left in here so that's clear and then I assume we don't have any anyone on the phone there is no one online thank you Julia okay so the public hearing portion of this application is now closed um would any commissioner like to make a motion sure okay I move that the commission issue a certificate of appropriateness for the application at 549 sou 1st Street a contributing property in the old west side historic district to remove and rebuild the front porch and roof and to remove and replace the deteriorated sighting as proposed the work is compatible in exterior design Arrangement and material to the building and the surrounding area and meets the secretary oops I miss my place now no there you go Secretary of the

182Interior standards for rehabilitation and the guidelines for rehabilitating historic buildings in particular standards 2 5 and n and the guidelines for entrances and porches would building site and roofs as well as the nror historic district guidelines for residential porches and wood siding trim and Architectural details great second okay that was moved by commissioner Kaplan and seconded by commissioner Smith um okay so we basically have two things going on we've got the porch and we've got the sighting so um I'm so excited to see this porch rebuilt um I think it's great uh are there comments on on that I'm just glad we saved the easiest one for last you are you wait I don't get it this is the easiest one right I'm glad we did you are that sounded so sarcastic but you were

183sincere okay good no cuz I couldn't handle anything complex the last so you're feeling good about the porch at least um yeah absolutely nothing to add all right so um so then uh question for you the the the roof of the porch mhm is it were you buying like oh you can't really see it um did that seem did you happen to notice it with the roof they're changing materials on top yeah yeah yeah I don't think I don't think it's F right it's a very very shallow pitch right okay very good just wanted to make sure um sounds all good on the porch then so let's um let's let's discuss uh the siding I I think it's a tricky one but uh does anyone have any comments um I think that we've we've approved

184uh siding removal before I think it's um it's basically when it's this sort of situation usually I would say it's like the sighting is just all deteriorated and we have to right um we have to remove it this is well half of it is is deteriorated with a uh a promise from the project manager of of the project saying we're going to very carefully remove the rest and we've got a plan for it um I feel very comfortable like they're doing complicated things on this house that involve you know salvaging material so I'm I'm very comfortable with with what they've proposed I am as well and there is a substantive difference between I mean there's a vapor barrier capacity of of close cell B but it only goes joist to joist stud to stud stud

185to stud St to stud so so you don't and and you're not protecting in any way the you know so getting that getting as they put it outboard makes a lot of sense I'm assuming it's going to be some sort of like a tibe house wrap type thing yeah okay that that makes sense right right the the to protect the sheathing MH um which is important to protect you need it outboard now that being said no house on the old west side has tyvec you know on the outside of their sheathing but this is a particular case I get you know this is uh the owner you know making a proposal for this so um I think that um it's to me it's hard to say that uh that the vapor barrier is the reason

186for doing this um as opposed to just the sightings deteriorated we want to replace it right um because I just uh but um it doesn't really matter either way it's yeah exactly okay um let's let's move to a vote all those in favor of the motion please say yes yes all those opposed please say no uh the motion carries your application's been approved thanks Casey okay well let's move on uh we're done with the hearings guys okay um this feels I don't know with just four Commissioners it's like a just a small little gathering I don't know it feels more informal or something I I want to uh just uh mention that okay there's no new business um so let's move on to that from approval of the minutes we're going to approve approve the

187June minutes unless anyone has any corrections to uh to bring up okay so um without objection the minutes are approved as presented are there any reports from Commissioners would any commissioner like to share something with the commission no um okay we've moved on to assignments uh the August take out your schedulers uh August 5th that's a Monday at 5 p.m. commissioner kaplan's had a string of either for yeah you're you're just going all week the regular same here okay we've got two out Mariana okay I will be there sure called her on you you'll be I will be there yeah okay are you um willing to be on the review absolutely oh great thank you for that yeah we'll have to ask um maybe one of the people that weren't here today would be willing

188to do it out of guilt it's funny and if not I could probably do it okay Mariana good oh good yep okay um well thank you commissioner Calderone much appreciated is there a report from staff this month nothing just that we hope Jill's having a great vacation yes Jill we hope you're having a wonderful vacation um a well-earned one I'll say that okay do we have any Communications uh wait a second are there concerns of any Commissioners this is where you would voice your concerns I still haven't heard back from Cobblestone Farms oh I still have not heard back from Cobblestone Farms okay that's a bit unusual um I guess that that's something is that uh I can reach out personally to U yeah I will do that um I got in contact with the

189first person who was going to have someone else reach out to me about more information so that you can attend the meetings okay yeah just reach out yourself and see see what they say I wonder if they're having meetings mhm maybe they're just not having meetings but if they are that'd be great if you could uh uh contact them um okay any other concerns yeah no okay uh me neither are there Communications Mariana Communications to the HDC nope okay very good in that case I now adjourn the July 11th 2024 HDC meeting what time is it 9:51 p.m.