001e board appeals meeting for March 21st 2024 roll call Paul darling here Robert Hart here Hugh Flack here Kevin Cox here David arstar is absent for City staff we have Michael Redmond here Mike Lemieux here myself Deborah Williams we have a quorum all right thank you first item on the agenda is public commentary not associative appeal looks like there is no one for that uh second item is the approval of the agenda you have a motion to move approve the agenda so moved a second those in favor I I passes approval of the minutes from the November 16 2023 meeting there are minutes attached to the packet any comments on those adjustments if not can have a motion move to approve the minutes second those in favor I I who pass the next item on
002the agenda is appeals actions and show cost hearing we have one appeal today for BBA 24001 appeal for 803 McKinny and Arbor 48104 and uh so how the appeal process works we'll have the applicant come up and um to the stand and sign in then we'll have uh the staff report make their staff recommendation for repeal the um applicant can present their case and then the board will have questions for the applicant and then uh we'll make a motion so for the appeal to pass we need a majority of the members and present to uh to pass so that would be three today would be three okay so you can come up and sign in state your name and then we'll get a staff report good afternoon um my name is Anna erson I'm from
003Ox studio um representing the owner and um the address 803 McKinley do you want me to go into further or St staff report first first and I've signed in already thank you goad uh so the property at 803 McKinley is an R2 occupancy uh built in 18 1890 uh it's four units over a shared basement um there's access from each of the above units down to the space in the basement um it's open to two units and then a door between the other two units in the basement level um but all of the access to it is unobstructed uh from the units above um um the uh staff recommends uh denying this appeal um the building official has determined that this is a change of use um a partial change of use which would require
004uh compliance with um chapter 10 of the Michigan Rehabilitation code um essentially going into what the applicant had provided in their um uh appeal summary um is that they mentioned that areas like this could pardon me could be used for things such as pool tables uh exercise equipment um and things of that nature um which would be considered um part of an R3 use if that was the type of building um this is an R2 use um in common spaces in R2 are not considered in R2 use uh with that being said um any change from what would what looks like now with the additional information looks like a small assembly which would go to a business use um would be a change of use to the R2 occupancy that's proposed in the um in
005the permit application okay thank you so now the ath can come up and uh present present your appeal sure um thank you everyone for your time today and and the opportunity to come before you and and speak on this case um and again thank you for I know we've had many conversations with the building official on on this actual appeal and um the initial rulings on the case so we we really appreciate the continued dialogue and to to try to come to a resolution for this so thank you for that um we're we feel like we're really here to discuss this um this definition of occupancy um to date this low level was has been described to us as three different uses um from the initial permit response comments um and it it really is
006I think something that has also been acknowledged by the building official something that's somewhat ambiguous and has been stated to us that even um when pertaining to residential basements that the the code doesn't reference this exact scenario that we're dealing with so we've been told that there's it's a storage space Also utility and now it's an assembly space so we're really we feel that with the nature of the building which I'll get into in just a minute that it it it's um still Falls underneath the residential uh use category and that's what we tried to argue in our um commentary and our appeals application so just to provide a little bit more information on the the structure itself um it was built in 1890 it's a side-by-side structure for units in total um the each
007unit you know goes from essentially from first floor up to roof um it would could almost by some standards be Town House type but due to the nature and the uh year of construction and changes in code it really doesn't fall within that townhouse category because we can't have the the full firewalls in between we don't meet any of those initial um categories and it doesn't go you know the the firewall doesn't go from Full structure slab Foundation all the way up to roof but it it has very much that that side by nature it does sit a top a the shared basement um that is is subdivided and shared by two units there's a fire am masonry firewall that's in between and there was at one time I believe a door that was fully
008uh closing that was also raid so it really brings it back down to more of a two almost a two family type situation um the proposed work is to basically just extend those those walls you know subdividing each unit so adding two more demising walls in the basement to separate into four units and we have the contiguous stair that's already there to add you know two more um sleeping units in the basement and a um raid furnace enclosure and uh washer and dryer those the washer and dryer and um furnaces already exist in the basements today so they're it's already being utilized as storage type function as a utility type function um we don't know we can make conjecture that it has also been used as a place where there may be some additional features
009but we that's kind of conjecture it really does I think serve as a true more residential type basement feel that you would see in a single or multif family you know or two family type dwelling or it's a basement that Services the the use of the residents themselves um this is something that we really feel is key to the interpretation um and as I stated the the new construction would be would really serve to extend th those units and really create the true separ separation between units um from slab up to roof to the best that we can without going into the whole town home scenario um the description that we provided in the packet in terms of you know a recreation space I think was a little bit M misconstrued in the sense that
010there is again that there this space is utilized as utility it is utilized as storage it could be utilized as um a lounge type space or a recreation type use where there may be some exercise equipment there may be some pool tables very much like you would find in excess space within a lower level of of a home um so I I think that the um the change to you know the initial response um from the the permit comments was that this is a storage it wasn't defined to us whether or not what this whether or not it was S1 or S2 um our initial response to our permanent comments was to you know we really didn't know where to go with the code path so we looked at incidental use as an exception to
011that and incidental use um fairly clearly states it's an that their ancillary anciliary function associated with a given occupancy that generally poses a greater level of risk to the occupancy and limited to those and I but the exception incidental uses within and serving and dwelling are not required to comply with this section um it ALS it also states that there you can have an incidental use in single or mixed use occupancy um and that those would it doesn't State you know it says serving a dwelling unit um that the code official came back and said that uh quote it's really more of a utility space the code does not reference this exact scenario he did say prior to that that he should note in the past in a past interpretation I had indicated the basement
012or seller was considered storage I should correct that statement While most owners or occupants have used that lower level for storing various items that they have it really is more of a utility space the code does not reference this exact scenario so that kind of the our opening statement um upon further dialogue we we disagree with the decision that there is a change of of use as I've stated um so we began kind of the discussions on how to move forward with an appeal this was part of our discussion about how this this basement area could be used or is used and and and multiple options and the it was a little bit surprising in reading the um the staff report that this is now being considered an assembly type space but defaulting from underneath
013under 50 occupants we're now in a business use so which is understand clear definition per code but now again we're in a third use group so we we feel like this is um still really can there's no single definition that applies to the space and that it really is um a support function for the residents and should remain part of the residential use function um I just want to note that I think we also while we uh submitted the appeal BAS upon the the true intent of the code was was um sorry uh the true intent of the code of the rules governing construction had been incorrectly interpreted we also feel that the only thing that's triggering this this appeal for us is that this change in occupancy that we actually still also meet um
014that we're providing an equal or better type of construction based on the actual nature of what is currently existing within the structure structure itself so currently it is open to between two units because the door is missing it's open to four but we're really we are making this a much safer condition by installing the demising walls between the units that we're providing egress from the two bedrooms um directly out the furnaces are going to be located in um rated enclosures so we're actually making any chance of um spread of any kind of fire smoke is really limited to within the dwelling unit itself which is much better than what the current condition provides is there's none and I'll just reiterate that this the each unit has a staircase that is laading down we're not modifying
015the stair at all we're just enclosing that and making sure it's maintained the units themselves um I think with that I'll um I think I've said most of okay what I want to say thank you there very very good can I um just add a couple of things um I think that when we look at the um uh better equivalent or better than code it's not looking at it as what it is right now it's looking at it as what the code requirements are and that they're presenting something equally uh what it comes down to is a suppression system or sprinkler system that would be required in that area um not the whole building um but the area that's being remodeled uh or the in the area of the change of use I just wanted
016to add that information that didn't realize that that's a big ad yeah because we didn't that didn't come out in the packet yeah it's I think it's noted in the very beginning but it's mentioned briefly but yes that is part that is the main Reon state that that the change of use triggers the requirement for a suppression system in lower level which we feel is is quite an undertaking to add eight bedrooms this could be a residential level our 13 system or what kind of system would trigger for this kind of use I believe we would be under the r13 from what we' it' be r13 I mean there was the more affordable systems versus the yes it wouldn't be a full NPA 13 system 13r whatever be a 13r system which is residential use
017okay all right and I believe we are looking into what that that could entail but there's still you know we need to look at incoming Services if there's even an existing tap and if that would so it could be quite an extensive undertaking mhm but for your packet the intent is to make those ba uh bedrooms in the basement correct correct correct so there' be two bedrooms in with each unit so we'd be adding two bedrooms to the existing each existing unit along with um furnaces would be maintained within each unit in the basement in a rated closet and then there would be a washer dryer in each unit as well and you're having to put in means of egress yeah each bedroom has a means of egress um so there will'll be a window
018in each bedroom located which there's current the only means out currently from the um the basement is back up through the stair and I think one there's one exterior stair within on on the in the basement itself so current to win the the new scheme any individual occupant within the bedroom would have a means out but they also meet the requirements of underneath the 75t um erress up to the exterior door so this this considered a three story building now or a four story building two and a half actually two and a half yeah so the it does have a third story but the um ceilings are pretty low so there there are I think there's one bedroom up there currently okay so it's an occupied yeah piece yeah but is considered 2 and half
019story so little bit little bit more information seems to be coming out with each this road so what the top the very top floor regardless of the ceiling height it is being used as a bedroom I believe so is is that correct in I think that and that's something that the our scope of work really only entails the basement I'm just looking at this [Applause] I do know that in in previous um inspection reports that has been cited a couple of times where there I think there's habitable space up there but it's been questionable because the ceiling is quite low yeah okay um and I don't know I know that there was um attempts I think to raise that that structure but it's it has been there have been appeals granted that they didn't have
020to because it's quite an extensive undertaking so something may it may be finished but it may not be habitable legally habitable right right which is I think the two and a half story yeah yeah where that definition comes in well I mean even though it's not part of the scope of work in my mind that's really that's that's kind of relevant because if those top if the top floors are being used as a bedroom that means that I mean it's a little hard to follow the whole staircase scenario here it looks like there inter there are internal staircases and there are also staircases that are essentially fire escapes M there are fire Escapes in just structure but but one of the main ways to get to the bedrooms on the very top floor are through
021another bedroom on the floor below right which I believe has like that is that is one thing I believe has been cited by um inspection inspectors in the past so but there's really no way to control this like a suite I guess I guess you're saying it's a bedroom off a bedroom or bedroom right it would be converted into a single bedroom is what I would expect or a large type spe and what what is the construction type is it 5B or 5 a 5B so there's the you saying that the fire separation between units is really whatever it was was built in the 20s right right you yeah uhhuh yeah is there interconnection to Hardware smoke detection system now is there inter smoke detector at all the levels as far as I don't believe
022there is any currently Dan you right uh there is not currently but with the renovation work there we we will be including those I know for sure in the new work but in in the existing Conn yeah would that be compliant with uh the R2 use group or would need a building wide fire alarm system or you want to separate each one separately so one went off they wouldn't all four go off level of a system there I think You' have to have it connected me you mean connected between units or just connected no not connected between units but connected internally internally connected well I've seen it both ways you know yeah I in a case like this especially since this is starting to approach townhouse mhm develop but it doesn't have the true separation
023between doesn't have the firewalls doesn't have the firewalls I would see that may not be wall it may be a wall but it may not be a UL listed assembly it may be half hour 1890 yeah yeah I don't think it would be so unreasonable to have it fully discour interconnected yeah I mean across all yeah yeah sometimes that's a problem because one goes off and people get used to false alarm so I don't know what what they'd recommend there there's a lot in NFPA 72 to take into consideration for that yeah meaning meaning meaning the the type construction how much is there and and how I mean you can look at some of the things you can have floors that are activated differently yeah uh the top four four below but not the whole
024building yeah um I I I I would actually have to look into the code book to give a true comment on that I mean at that point the system is probably so complicated it may be easier to sprinkle you know level it's not more than just a residential interconnected four or five head you know uh alarm there there's no separation true fire separation in there so I would probably look at if it was a fire alarm system that it would be a connected system mhm mhm so using the Attic space third floor space as a bedroom right now um you're you're talking 1 2 3 four five six bedrooms in the home and if um I guess how does it how does it fall under the rental like having people in in an unclassified bedroom
025you know and I know that there codes that they have to meet for housings and stuff like that every single week but having having people in an area cuz I mean in the basement what's the difference than them throwing a cot in the middle in the corner of the wall and having them just have people in the basement right now you're just going to to drywall up right now and that's all they're asking for right now but like I feel like there's a lot more to this scenario as it unfolds than just building some firewalls in the basement for separation issues I feel like there's a few different code violations that are happening than just the basement issue um especially having to go through a bedroom to get out of an occupied space um you
026know uh yeah it just seems like a lot unfolded throughout conversation than what's really here um I think one of the issues is the fact that the building is getting much more dense and much more burdened with with occupied space and what the what you're proposing to do in the basement isn't really an equal or better construction it's what you have to do regardless of what of you just have to do it because that's the code requirement there's not you're not giving more back into the building to make it above and beyond and Beyond are you saying that by adding the separation walls that that's a minimum requirement is that by code yeah yeah I mean anything that you're doing to make the lower level space habitable with the window wells and and the bathrooms
027and the ventilation and all that you have to do it no matter what I mean don't if they don't proceed they wouldn't do it required as part of a project yeah um I feel like if there was a UL listed ceiling if there was a 3-hour separation if there was a you know rebuilt of the stairs uh if there was a little bit more to make it actually make sense to say it's above and beyond no matter what in the code you have to have a 1 hour fire separation minimum between each thing so that's not making anything better well I would say existing there is nothing it's just open B completely open to the units above so anything could happen in the basement and transfer to the adjacent unit so I think minimum would
028be yes there's a a clear separation either between unit and and the and a um demising wall or like you're suggesting we're raiding the underside of the the floor system itself to create a true almost a plenum type scenario are you guys doing anything that wood ceiling right now cuz it looks like it's just wood it'll be encased in 5/8 jip um but that would be again the our structure our demising walls are going right up to the underside of existing structure structural beams and then those are being wrapped in um rated construction as well so we'll have a continuity from slab up to between each unit and our demising walls are are going to be in alignment with the um the demising walls up above so we're really carrying that that vertical space all
029the way down you got we we could argue saying that by adding two bedrooms in the basement they couldn't occupy the third floor that is that is that better to be in that level with the neg window than going at the fire gap you know if they'd be willing to yeah but I don't I don't think I don't think anybody on in all in all practicality anybody really has any control of what happens on that top floor or anywhere in the building I mean well or anywhere in the building inspection day yeah and I mean one other thing that's a little bit quirky about this is that the primary entrance to the B to the basement units is through the kitchen mhm which is probably one of the highest Hazard areas in the building and
030from the photographs it looks like it's a really tight squeeze um I mean maybe to cut to the chase on this and I don't want to cut off any this the conversation or anything but but would you guys be amenable to the suppression system and an interconnected fire alarm system as part of the appeal approval for the appeal well I I think we need the appeal at that point right we would have to if if the if the board denies our appeal then we're already within a suppression system so that I think the the suppression system is the main point of our the reason for our our appeal there a big benefit right we will be installing the the the fire and smoke alarm system as required per code interconnection I believe is one of
031the requirements that we have to meet um there are exceptions but those all involve suppression as well from my initial reading you know what your water line size is you see that Li limits the variable if it can suppress a building or not you got a half inch or you know 3/4 inch or one inch line that an NPR system you would be pulling a separate fire lead you couldn't come off domestic water so they would have to to do yeah so there's syst 1 and 13d but this would not be a one and two family dwelling so it' be a 13r system it does require a single FDC on it does require its own fire lead water supply so that's the expense right there cutting the street getting water it would be the tap
032to the water for that but again it only applies to the basement if they add the bedrooms and the system yeah I mean you can just springle the whole house by the time you still there's still added expense to do the entire building but yes it would be I yes you could at that point but I believe it's only required in the area of right but it is it is quite an undertaking I know that the tap fees alone are going to be quite expensive um again it's it's small fortune to to purchase a property it's it is intended to be Revenue generating we are trying to improve the existing condition as well as you know add some additional bedrooms that can capture some of that that Revenue generation however it's it's eight bedrooms and
033that the adding the suppression system is quite a bit of an undertaking within that um can that consideration sorry um Can firewalls be and UL visting supersede the fire suppression a variance with equivalency you probably could but but I mean I think the next step with El would be protection would be a different level of alarm system maybe more affordable than the waterline that's what going to drive it you know notification um I'm going to guess the unit probably are smoke tight from side to side so you won't get smoke from one to the one to the next but it w a while to burn through you know you me to have a p pure UL rated 1 hour tested system but what if it's like a three hour system youd be ripping all the
034plaster off the walls all the way up between the parition walls all the way up yeah and then me go through the roof and you know so uh um is there another alternative for them to uh and I don't I I've been away from that portion of the code too long but isn't there isn't there provision within an existing building that you can actually rate or create a spreadsheet of equivalency that's part of the chapter yeah yeah m yeah but just to see if the building point system yeah a point system yeah mhm yeah does that have any application for this it's tradeoffs we basically we would need a variance if you went through that process if as long as we make enough points well that's what I'm asking yeah did you look into we
035have we have not run the calculations I believe there there's compartmentation or compartmentalization that would be required for that and I know we we've done it on a a couple of other projects it's quite an extensive most mostly stive seems like if you sprinkle right Point there's a huge requirement for sprink yeah and but yes we're we're familiar with the that chapter are you saying that we would if we went through that chapter 14 would we still would a um appeal still be required or would that be a it depends how the points come out right you know you could say I'm doing something else you know and I don't know if chapter 10 takes you there change in use I don't know that I don't know if it dire I'd have to look to
036see if if if there's a way to that from CU cuz my recollection of it is that chapter 14 keeps you out of the change of use but again I'm not have to look back it's only been applied once or twice that I'm familiar with I mean regarding the change in useing I mean it's probably always been used the way it is it's an accessory to the rest of the house it's you know it's has it been finished as any particular use no it's unfinished you know so it's and connected to all the units you know so uh and could they build walls in the basement that separate they would improve the fire separation down there probably so you know um I mean it seems like it isn't exess to me it seems like an
037incidental accessory use it's got mechanical stuff down there laundry stuff down there I mean it's the laundry all shared with one unit now or each have their own laundry um I believe they're shared between unit current so they mean so they may have two unit so there's some sharing obiously some sharing between units there um what what is the riseon run of the stairway is that currently Co code compliant uh I believe so yeah I think it's right at the 8 and a quarter Max we're not doing any kind of alteration to the stair we're keeping those in place um so possibly compliant for code of the time would not yeah be compliant with current if it if is a change in you say gu you're saying it would trigger more is it 7-Eleven or
038yeah so that's um there's uh there's I'd have to look at it there's an exception for stairways within a un residential yeah yeah yeah only serving a unit or something yeah I'd have to look and see what that states yeah maybe 810 or something like that or it's 8 and A4 by 10 the max 8 and a quart is the max rise yeah so um once again if if the if the four units continue vertically from top to bottom and they're each separated that the lower level of each of those units couldn't be fed off a residential separate suppression Arrangement not for a 13r system specifically in in the NFPA code for that system it has to have its own lead so The Bu they they can the whole building can be suppressed if if
039if I'm making sure I follow you directly you don't need four separate leads coming in it'd be one lead to the building but for a 13r system it has to have its own fire lead you can't be off domestic water be sh by the domestic line yeah well I guess my that's my question once once you compartmentalize each of those units right so the building still building wide system is what he's saying building wide line still a building light system can't each comp each segment can't work off the domestic w no no it's the thing they don't they don't want it shared with domestic for whatever reason the domestic gets shut off is that why you can't shut off the other one it it's it's it's the the so the system can't be shut up
040but it's also based off the water supply that it has to have a a dedicated water supply itself and not off domestic yeah that's once again that's the difference between a 13r and a 13d system 13d is your one and two family dwellings that comes off domestic water okay so they could they get a variance to use the 13d system have you ever seen that you know what's the risk there you know uh by definition no by definition it's a one and two family dwelling yeah so 13d is one and two family dwellings only um I mean my my as I said before I think my sense is of change in use is a little bit of a gray area just because it's never been defined as a particular use down there it's unfinished you
041know um so I mean then you look at holistic what's the best thing as far as safety in the building you know probably sprinkling would be the highest would be the best and uh you know if that's a barrier that probably not may or may not want to cross that means probably don't do anything I I don't know um I mean that's pretty expensive I'm going to guess it is pretty expensive and I I think that's again our you know yeah it is a gray area and that I think that's what I want to emphasize is that the use has been and it's been classified in multiple ways and it it is really tricky I think to to assign one um whenever it is it is clearly you serving the residents themselves yeah but now
042that we're CH now that you're touching it and now that you have to classify it that's where you have to go by that classification and like it's not but which classification because it's been storage utility and now assembly what you're changing it into it's not yeah right but same as above basically though as saying the same as above yeah it's I guess there there's no classification about what it is other than it's being changed I guess I mean if you ever finish your basement in single family is that a change you but that's that's residential code not building and I think that that's what I think that there's an argument sort of leaning toward residential code requirements and this is clearly a commercial under building CO yeah because of multiple unit yeah yeah yeah that's
043where they're at especially since now you're putting Life Safety down there and you're going to have people sleeping down there and that just because you're changing it to that that's where the sticky s like the unfortunate situation here it's not a bad plan you know and if I it was mine I'd probably want to divide it to and probably capitalize on the square footage which you could but now that you're putting the saf I think it's a little more than just a change of occupancy I think it's the fact that the building is is I'm going to use the word burdened sure is the intensity of use is increased dramatically um you know and and as far as historical classifications I mean historically back in the day it was just a residential use period so
044at some point with this renovation the whole thing had to be classified ified according to According to some form of current code so the top became R2 and the bottom piece had to get something right but it wasn't R2 um so I I just want to make sure I understand in terms of when we vote on this if if the appeal is denied they have to suppress the lower level correct just the lower level correct the area that's being okay they have to do that no matter what they're not finishing anything if the building the building can stay as it is but because they're changing it yeah saying a change of use becomes chapter 10 chapter CH requires the area be suppressed the work area okay and if um and if that's the case any
045further provision like um the introduction of an interconnected notification system or smoke detection system that is that would be above and beyond I mean I I think that uh I focused on the suppression because it was the biggest thing I'd have to go back but they'd have to meet all the require I guess what I'm saying is it' be implicit in that right if we're looking at if it's a change of use everything from chapter 10 has to comply with code okay um which um yeah I think that there's a notification system of some sort yeah there there would be a fire alarm requirement I think even without the change of use there's still a fire alarm requirement so that that would still be installed and I believe it's still an interconnected system again I'd
046have to go back and look at that it it really is the the change the the Declaration that we're there's a change of use is what triggers chapter 10 and chapter 10 is what triggers a suppression system so if there is no of use then the fire suppression system is not required in an R2 and it was presented and applied for under a level two alteration yes yes um but it was determined not to be by the building official mhm well we're still within level two but we still but the change the change of use is what's triggering the the chapter 10 application so we're still under level two rehab code or level two alteration you have enough to make a motion or any more questions just trying to F of something you know but
047um I don't know if there's any more information they would the applicant want to collect if you want to proceed with a motion and vote or if they would want to you know look at all alternates for above and beyond what it would be table it and you know allow them time for that or uh just go ahead and make a motion I guess if I could say we're I think we're still in the position that that the building is it is classified as an R2 use that there's I think now that we're doing work there's a secondary look at what that lower level is which I I understand but at the same time that there's never been there is no clear classification that we've been presented with through all of our discussions that would
048fall under any particular use as as outlined in in the building code um utility has been stated storage has been stated now assembly has been stated and I I think that that really points out a gray area and and really I think the space with the subdivision of of the basement already into just a couple smaller units and that this really is serving just just the occupants of of the residents themselves and I think it does fall underneath the R2 use or the residential use of the inhabitants classified as storage and utility use but now it's going to be classified as a is what is what the since we've submitted for permit those are the three that have come back to us so it's it's multi-purpose so like is it now is that I think
049that's where we're you're changing the purpose of that space though now right like now it's going to be bedrooms well still still R2 two would be bedrooms you know but uh I think before it was it was uh incidental as far as mechanical you know laundry um anything want anyone you want to do that's right related to the residential use but uh now you know it's still you know associated with their residential above correct I think if there were actually the if they actually had the partition walls between them it would be clearer you know than it is right now yeah I think that the it being a common area plays into it accessible by all of the upper units I mean it seems a little weird that it is common that you can actually
050go down your stair and with somebody else's stair the house is all lock you know is that not particularly great either you know I like the safety aspect of it though you know dividing it all up no one's coming up into my house I mean there's five blcks on the picture that's on here on the kitchen basement door that's this like a lockout tagout you know exactly do you know how the how the bedroom Hardware is uh set up do they all do they all have privacy locks uh they they will all have privacy locks they'll have I mean there won't be like a true deadbolt but it'll have like a latching locking mechanism on the the new um we can certainly add privacy on the existing I I would think that that would be
051um something that we would want to provide anyway but there would be no like dead bolt you know secure entry bedroom it's not considered right like a a shared like um yeah housing I guess so to speak where you would have you run a room right exactly yeah then free eress would always be provided of course with those left if you're locking from inside the bedroom you'd be able to get out to to Bob's point that the kitchen is tight well if they put the walls in they could take the kitchen door off there it's secured at that point you know wouldn't you come up the stairs and have't open the door there so if somebody if you have privacy locks on the bedroom doors if somebody happens to be on the lowest level and
052there's an incident the only way out for them is up through the stair you Windows if they can't get through the bedrooms well they're in the bedroom they're going to be PR they're not if they're you lock it from the inside don't you the Privacy is a push button privacy if they're downstairs but they're not living downstairs they're using the shower downstairs they're doing something downstairs uhuh and they can't get out they can't get through either the two bedrooms to the window wells the only way out is this there yes and but that that does meet the code minimum requirements travel distance and and the downstairs is yes you're correct it's a pet thing I never understood the yeah yeah the logic there but I just wanted to understand that the that that constitutes also
053part of the ESS for the entire vertical segment correct yeah any more questions for the applicant from the staff question for the applicant have any questions [Applause] I mean it seems like if if there is a variance here it would be the intent of uh the uh interpreted as far as the R2 versus being an unclassified use you know would be the only way that would be a potential for or variance there would be that would be uh going from a gray but the rest of it seems like it's equally your better I think that's out you know don't prison don't apply something like it's out so well it could be it could be equal or better with certain stipulations additional stipulations right yeah uhuh that's what's proposed yeah uhhuh so I will give that
054one okay okay I moved that in the case of BBA 24- 00001 the appeal of the building board's decision that the work proposed at 803 McKinley is granted relief from section 101 12.2.1 of the 2015 Michigan Rehabilitation code for existing buildings and the board of appeals reverses the building officials decision for the reasons that number three the applicant has proposed an equal or better form of construction through proposed improvements with the following Provisions that there be included an interconnected fire alarm system across all four units on all levels and that the top level semi habitable space is closed off unoccupied or what does that mean is physically finishes remove kept unoccupied okay that would be the third level or second level third four third level the third level that goes through the bedrooms to get
055access to any other additions or comments on the motion is it possible to make a comment M um the house is already being taxed at the 4700 ft so that space becomes uninhabitable that changes the taxable value so that the entire if you're cut you're you're suggesting that the entire uh top level would not be considered habitable space at all so not even the the chance for a single bedroom is that MH I have a real problem with it I understand the the the the bot the bottom level is the sort of the primary issue having to do with change of occupancy but but I just I looking at the configuration of the building in total and what happens if the lower level becomes an acceptable habitable space it it it just to me it's
056putting too much pressure on the building from from a habitation and life safety point of view so um so the motion is being structured from more from the point of view of more life safety huh more life safety than than addressing the change of occupancy issue which I'd like to talk about after get when we get to the comment section so um I will say that it has um been uh inspected for rental in the past yeah um um and I would have to look into it further but I don't know if the third floor has been addressed by another board for um which um is a possibility you have an external fire escape system does that go to the third floor it does there is an escape directly from the third floor yeah that's
057already existing so the space has already been yeah sounds like it so I guess the trade office we're trading off one on the third floor for getting two in the basement so two in the basement maybe safer than one in the third floor you know is what they I I understand I think the the logic and and I think the thing that we're grappling with is that it it is we're doing something that is you know allowable to add the additional bedrooms um meeting all the square footage requirements Eis requirements ventilation requirements and allowable number of bedrooms per unit even so I think that that is what we feel like is is quite a you sprink you'd have to sprinkle it so you could keep the third floor If you sprinkle it it sounds like
058is is that what you would you wouldn't have you wouldn't have to proceed with the variance you can go ahead and comply with code sprinkle the the lower level and the lower level yeah you still have that option okay if if that is the the motion that is being um presented then we would like to resend the appeal okay so not to cross boards um I it just the third St come into play I actually see where you're going I can let the motion stand ending it on the part of um all four units on all levels and strike the part about the third or the top level being closed off and we could just put that to a vote but the other part's already required by code the inter hard is already by code
059not not if it's an appeal that's being granted if it's appeal if it's an appeal that's being denied then they have to follow through if I'm understanding this correctly if the appeal is denied then they have to treat it as a change of use and everything that follows with that which includes the fire alarm system and the suppression for that level if it's an appeal that's being granted the provision of the fire alarm system through the building is an added stipulation to making it an equal or better form of construction is that fair yeah that's what it's sounding like from what you're saying so I'm I'm floating this in the affirmative MH for the vote yeah discussion on the uh on the motion well in the application the project description does say each unit is
060two bedrooms going to four bedrooms so it doesn't they don't seem to admit that they use the third floor for a b bedroom it's part of the Upper Floor bedroom I guess is continuous to the yeah oh it's a large bedroom it's a large bedroom so two Lev bedroom yeah okay it's it's out yeah okay any other discussion on uh your Des your description of the interconnected fire alarm system throughout the entire building is that what it was across all four units on all levels I mean actually to kind of go off you the existing they're calling unit one just a two-bedroom unit two a two-bedroom unit three a two-bedroom unit four a two-bedroom the proposed it's going to be four bedrooms total but I think you have way more bedrooms than that in this
061place don't you well because that third floor is that odd Condition it's there's there's two bedrooms on um level two and then that third floor space really is that kind of additional space so if we're doing additional two bedrooms sorry but like don't you right now have three bedrooms two on the third floor or one on the third floor two on the second floor there are three on the second floor three two on the second floor two on the second floor that the big bath in the back really yeah yeah two on the second floor you have two rooms on the second floor then you have the third floor which is a habitable space right now not being identified as a habitable bedroom but they're calling it a bedroom right now paperwork is shoes but
062isn't it one two three well it's no no um just clarification there's there are two bedrooms currently two on the second floor one of those um is by level has access to that third floor space I'm sorry say that again two bedrooms on the second floor the second bedroom has access to the one of the second bedrooms has access to the third floor space so it's continuous to the third floor right so that the bed the space that's on the third floor yeah can be utilized by and occupant of one of the bedro yeah yeahuh it's like a suite a twole suite it's like a yes two L Suite yeah yeah so the third floor is not leased out to an individual correct the lease is on the main thing and that is not a
063bedroom up there it's just space sitting room or maybe you cannot sleep up there or something else yeah yeah so I did have a friendly Amendment to the motion Bob for your consideration that we make the um on all four levels um that's approved by the fire marshal so he can review it and comment about the uh the design of the the system as approved by the fire marshall or as you know so just for clarification the fire marshal will turn it back over to the building department cuz the current okay the current way that that is handled within the city right now is the building department does do the review for suppression and alarm systems okay so if you give it over to me I'm going to give it back to the building around
064we go so does the villing department have somebody of this qualified in 13r review of those systems typically in the past you've given that we we have a couple of um inspectors who are okay able to review those and they they typically would submit shop drawings for that for us put in is that typically H process works and you riew it at that point riew that it's inspected solved that way y so I guess we could have that they submit shop drawings that are approved by the building department I guess before that they you know that review happened and uh not that you approve them but you review them you know yeah yeah um just you want to H the reliability from them well and I'm just wondering if that ends us up back here
065yeah if uh if we do a review and which is fine you know multiple appeals can be made on different yeah different subjects um but it gives you first line of sight of what the system going in is you know and and we would review it to make sure it met minimum Cod right yeah so I guess compliance with what that is uh NFPA 72 you said that was the alarm system yes so Paul you're withdrawing your friendly Amendment then to have it as approved by the fire marshall that was your friendly amendment that was my friendly Amendment yeah yeah and you're withdrawing that I guess I can change it to review by the building official like this the proper term how about this um in MO of the friendly Amendment just say in an
066in an NFPA 72 system approved by the building official okay can you explain what the the motion currently is sure it's basically an appeal uh to Grant the appeal that you proposed an equal or better form of construction through the proposed improvements with the following Provisions that there be included an interconnected fire alarm system across all four units on all all four levels based on a NFPA a conforming to sorry conforming to a NFPA 72 system approved by the building official okay so the the third floor provision has been removed yes okay MH yeah yeah does does that put us right does it never mind no not the way I understand it if if again um if the appeal was um disapproved was was not approved they would have to do everything that the change
067of use a change of occupancy requires meaning a fire alarm system and sprinkler system so I'm floating a an appeal be granted that on the basis that they provided an equal or better form of construction through the improvements in the basement with the addition of an interconnected fire alarm system so so that's predicate the the granting is being a we're saying it's not we're saying it's not a change in use then we're saying I'm not addressing that okay I we're just got to say was equally for it that that we will make a ruling on the change in use this is turning into more of a supreme cour yeah yeah yeah exactly okay I that was you we would say because that would that would making that ruling R to you it would allow us
068to you know seem like we would lean that way you know not deal with the change that's right yeah yeah Buton don't don't don't include that in the uh in the motion any other questions or comments anybody all right we have a motion I'll second the motion okay great all right uh those in favor I I I those against so two against two four so it looks like it doesn't pass so the motion's been denied it looks like so the motion's not Grant the appeal is not granted so all right I don't think there's anything else for left than this appeal I think that's okay that's thank you for your time presenting this was a challenging discussion there thank you very much for your time I appreciate thank you next item on the agenda is
069old business there is no listed old business unless the staff has an old business you want to cover up the updates on next item is new business nothing on the agenda for that and the last item on the agenda is adjournment do we have a motion to adjourn before we adjourn can I yeah I'd like to just raise so this this whole thing actually kind of caught me a little bit by surprise that that that there that this is especially since the the applicant has said that they've dealt with this before and it's been it's been somehow it's been handled before and I just wonder at what point can the city make a determination like just an across the board code determination that if these sorts of things happen again and invariably they will you
070know this is one of those classic how much can we get out of a building I'll say it I it the whole time how much can we get out of the building and how at what point does do you have to make the building building fall in line with more current Life Safety considerations and and um I'm sure this isn't going to be the first one that comes across the board um yeah you know and I actually thought this might fall into the the realm of the housing board of appeals that's what I was thinking that's rental there would be no new construction for housing board though well even just with the occupancy of the third floor like yeah the whole time there somebody up there like that's somebody there and then at the end
071it's like oh well no it's just an extended use it's extended sitting room yeah I mean yeah so and honestly I I'm going to say for me I had the much bigger problem with the fact that they were dense packing this building yeah than than the change of use business because um and I actually I was actually a little bit surprised that they didn't they didn't bite at the opportunity just suppress the lower level I read the same water system though be it' be the cost for the still tap in the street and cut the tap for the streets big bucks and then they got to you know have but they're also doubling their rent it's not cheap it's so if I can make a point of order um I think we're at the point
072where we need to adjourn the meeting or and have a continual discussion I was wondering why it couldn't be addressed as a local law or something like that that just kind of puts the interpretation or the ring but there's not really a local law local law is building code right yeah motion to adjourn second move we are adjourned at