001Uh call to order please. >> Yes. >> Henry I love sharing Brian Nichols. Joan R here, Tia Johnson present. All members are present. Senator Brian Nichols and Megan Miller approval of tonight's agenda move. Motion by Carol, seconded by Tom Hankkins. Any discussion? Hearing none. All in favor? Any opposed? Motion unanimous. Thank you. Uh the purpose of tonight's meeting is to provide the board insight as to the various components of the current administrative hearing and expulsion process and provide perspective as to alternative mechanisms that may be utilized by districts around the state. This workshop is information sharing rather than advising or strategy as to future processes. The district administration and district's legal council will meet with the board in the future to determine if there are adjustments to these processes or questions with regard to certain
002facts or circumstances. Tonight, I have an outline for the process that we're going to do because we have different legal um groups here. Each first I'll start with a set of questions for the administrative hearing officers. four questions and then I will open it to the board for questions. The independent curing officer um almost the exact same questions. Open it to the board. Uh questions for Scott McKesh with WB and then um for our administrative team that are here and all of our principles who are here tonight. Um but before we begin, can we just go around the room and everybody briefly um introduce yourself, your name and your capacity to interview tonight? I'm Johnson. I am the school board president. I'm Carol. board maintenance clerk treasure >> board assistance for others executive director of
003civil service hearing officer for expulsions >> attorney Kelsey McCarthy I am one of the administrative hearing officers >> attorney Bryce Becker I work with Kelsey as another one of the administrative hearing officers >> Joe Box principal at Aldridge >> Emily Pel principal at BL Memorial High School. >> Consultant Brian, principal at Bron Middle School. >> Benji Clut, interum principal at Converse. >> Fonda Lewis, principal at Gaston. Betsy Schroeder, principal at Floyd Learning Academy, the alternative high school. >> Regina, principal at M Elementary School. Lauren Banley's district >> Michelle uh board secretary board member >> and online we have >> oh uh I'm Scott McKish I'm one of the attorneys with the Wisconsin Association of School Boards. Thanks for having me. >> Good to see you Scott. And I see we also have board member Miller.
004Are you on Miller Megan? Can you hear us? >> Looks like she might be muted. >> Okay, we will get back to that. So, starting with the administrative hearing officers, um Kelsey and Bryce, correct? Thank you. How does an expulsion come to you? >> Um so, we get referrals for administrative hearing. uh directly from the school administration. So either a principal or one of the assistant principles will send us a request for a hearing um with just some basic facts and then we'll schedule an administrative hearing during that suspension period. >> Would you like to add anything? >> No, that's correct. That's correct. >> Okay. >> He has right. So >> and you did touch on this a little bit. um what is your role in this process? >> Yes. So, we do the initial
005administrative hearing and then um we would refer a student at the end of that hearing either back to their public school um sometimes with some conditions um that the families and uh I and the administration have agreed on um or to an alternative placement or we would make a referral for expulsion. Um, if we recommend expulsion, then we then schedule a hearing with Mark. >> What decisions do you make or pass on to the independent hearing officer? >> Um, so I make recommendations to the administrative hearing officer if we have recommended expulsion. So um similar to the process that we used with the when the board was hearing them, we would list out the um reason for our recommendation, what we recommend as far as the expulsion period and then um return conditions and conditions
006that we recommend be in place if the student were to return early. Um, but ultimately it's the hearing officer's uh prerogative whether or not they adopt those recommendations or modify them. >> Questions along the way I've got I'm going to go through the four questions that I might have on the line and then open it up. So and um if you want to chime in at any time I appreciate team effort and then the last question is um is there anything else you think is important for the board to know about your role? >> Um no I mean I guess just so that you guys know the process um we are available before hearings on occasion if um the school admin want to reach out to us and kind of give us some background. um
007we don't mandate that they do that. Um usually it's more severe cases that we'll get some additional information, but um no, I mean we're kind of just involved start to finish. We um I mean we're making recommendations just based off of our experience, but also um so that you guys know, some of the reason that we make the recommendations that we make is based off of um things like family willingness to um to participate in our process. Um to be open to alternate solutions. Um sometimes it's uh tone or it's um particularly depending on the age of the student um when they come in. Some are um more willing to adopt changes than others. Sometimes students even for a less severe infection will tell us they're not sorry and they're going to do it again.
008Um and so I know that looking at your question some of the questions are why are there sometimes different outcomes for different students? So, kind of skipping ahead to that, sometimes that's the reason is that they will tell us, "We're not sorry. I I won't be adopting any changes. I don't want to take your um resources. I'm going to continue to engage in this behavior." So, that that's kind that's the sorts of things that we're considering. >> Thank you, board members. >> Uh thank you. So I'll start with the shortest questions. Well, the shortest answers that I would leave you first. Okay. So with respect to your recommendations, how much input comes from the building administrators into shaping your recommendations? Um it depends on the fact of the case and what our recommendation is going
009to be. So, if I'm recommending someone return to their home school, but that we're going to be putting um some like restrictions in place or they're going to be engaging in different services that I typically rely pretty heavily on the school administration because I don't want to create a what I see as a solution, but that's impossible for them to actually facilitate. Um, as far as um an alternative placement or a recommendation for an expulsion, typically those conditions are our choice and we don't necessarily bounce ideas off of them. On occasion, administrators will have specific requests um for things like return conditions if they come back that they don't violate certain um codes of conduct. and I often will adopt those types of requests, but um typically school administrators are not coming to me with
010a list of the return conditions that they'd like to see. >> Okay. And for the administration, like are you comfortable with that? Because it sounds like you have a lot of influence on if a student is going to be placed back in their home school and you have some input on early reinstatement conditions. Do you feel like your level of input is appropriate? >> Well, you know, I'm you're running committee, but if people if you have feedback, I would that would be helpful to me. >> I I personally I do in my experiences. I feel like it's an appropriate level of input from me and then from from Bryce and Kelsey and you know like they were saying too once we get into the hearing um a lot kind of can depend on the direction
011that I go is is the student remorseful are they apologetic or are they more along the lines does not not be unapologetic. I mean predict that the behavior will then reoccur. Uh so but yes I I believe my input is is at the appropriate level. >> Does anyone build? Yeah, I was just going to say that I would say 90 to 95% of the time if I am requesting an administrative hearing, I'm also requesting expulsion as the recommendation. Uh and if if during the administrative hearing process um the conversation starts to lean towards a different recommendation coming out of that process, then yes, I am included in uh giving feedback on, you know, what kind of conditions should or should not be put in place or if we should be um like if a alternative
012placement is appropriate in lie of an expulsion, those types of things. >> Okay. Um, so I guess my question building off of that is is that kind of universal like if an administrator is is recommending an an administrative hearing, it's because the the intended outcome is expulsion. And if yes, is there another layer that's kind of like a final chance agreement? Like this this is serious. This needs to be addressed. I don't necessarily believe you as the administrator that this needs to end in expulsion. Is there another avenue? So two questions. One, does everyone else kind of feel the way Miss Peltz if I'm requesting administrative hearing? My recommendation is this is that this ends in expulsions. And is there another tier or pathway other than that? >> Um, for elementary, I'm going to say
013no. Um, because we don't have another pathway. There's there's no other place for us to go. So, um, I don't have an alternative placement or setting or any place to send a student that has that's violently aggressive. So, I have to take him to a hearing. Um, and I have to say 90 95% of the time like I try to re like I might recommend something else and and Bryce and Kelsey might be like, "No, we're going for exposure because of um the student is not doesn't have any MD, doesn't have any says they're not changing and they're not sorry, but I don't have any other place to take a a child and I'm I'm probably at the hearings more than anybody and I'm I'm you know, I don't know what else to say because
014I don't I don't have a place to take them." And I hear that and absent an an alternative right now, do elementary at the elementary or the middle school or even high school, do you have last chance agreements? I have a safety plan. So I do start with like a student safety and support plan and that was something that Missy um kind of created and provided to us. So I do put that in in place. I start with that and we also create like safe plans like if the student does this, we do this. So we try to do these these tiered steps with them and we go through those that safety plan. We put that in place for 30 days and we review it every 30 days unless something else happens and we come
015back sooner. >> Okay. So does everyone have something similar to that? And if I'm understanding it correctly, if this kind of intermediate step is unsuccessful, then the student heads to the administrative hearing where the outcome unless there's an exception is expulsion or an expulsion here >> or um I've had a couple that have been recommended not expulsion but recommended removed from the building and placed into bullet virtual. >> Okay. >> All right. This is helpful. Um my next question I have two more act, please. >> So, the the last chance agreement, we call it a behavior contract, and unless it's like a single event that's just heinous and egregious where everything's flown out of the water, you know, they're going through the MLSS process, right? They're starting tier, there's tier two behavior interventions, small groups,
016counselors. There's a there's a venue of these things that can be applied to MLSS and SIT team, right? um behavior contract being one of them that ends if we feel I mean the whole reason we're taking them if they go through all that is we I don't know what else to try we've tried everything behavior is not changing you leave us this this is the final option for us I feel like probably everybody feels that way with those that happen over a certain number of referrals 15 20 something like that >> I'm going to put a pin in that if that's my next question after this thank you for that context Um so okay the administrative hearing ends in recommendations and then the expulsion hearing ends in recommendations. So my my second question I just
017have three right now is what is the thought process that goes into shaping an expulsion recommendation um that may be different from an administrative hearing recommendation >> um Mr. because he would be coming up with those. I'm wondering when when the board sees an expulsion recommendation and it is different from an administrative hearing recommendation kind of what is the thought process or the input that you're looking for in to craft those recommendations. I would say that there there hasn't been too manyations in my experience. Um if anything uh I may have recommended a lengthier expulsion period. Um I almost never have decrease uh you know from based off of the administrator recommendations. Uh but what factors would I consider? Right. I mean, all the things the same factors that that we've heard thus far would
018be the remorsefulness perhaps of the u of the child and the parent uh you did the conduct in question whether it was it a one-off incident or was it a pattern of behavior that you does not show any reason to believe that it would be. So those are factors we consider. >> Thank you for that. Are there specific questions or types of questions that you ask the student and family if they are present to kind of get at okay we're here because there's a problem like what else is going on besides what's in this packet like what other context can you provide to me so that we are are really addressing the need and and it may still end in expulsion and the reason I ask is because I'm hoping that there's valueable insights that
019that you can get from that child and that family that could hopefully benefit them but also benefit other children and families that we serve. So is there like a specific set of questions when they're present that you kind of ask to get at okay beyond all of the paper like what brought us here? >> Uh generally I I give them cart blanch to ask questions of any witnesses. they're given plenty of opportunities to testify it on their own behalf. Um, generally probably more allowance than I would do for in any other, you know, legal context. Um, try to solicit as much feedback. A lot of people, I'll give you an example, a lot of them will just choose not to say anything. >> So, specifically, do you do any probing or is it the floor
020is yours? You can ask us any questions you want. But the floor, yeah, I would say that I give them the floor is yours. Um, occasionally I will try to solicit certain questions or try to get additional context. Um, but it'll, you know, it's just been my experience that a lot of these cases um sometimes they'll bring something written, but a lot of times they're just not um willing to provide a whole lot of additional information for perhaps concern about additional occupances. Nonetheless, that they're given plenty of opportunities. Um try to give them a safe environment to to make those statements. >> Thank you. And then my final question for now, if I can just give you some context, too. So, at the independent hearing officer, those hearings are a slightly more formal. The hearings
021that we run are very informal. We run them more like a conversation. And so there are sometimes opportunities for us to get more information and that information often does shape what our recommendations for return conditions are. So um sometimes we'll specifically include um counseling or counseling plus some other programming based on our conversation. So we so long as a family shows up and is willing to participate in a conversation um often and if we can get information about um you know if something's changed in their household or um if there's if they've tried counseling before and it didn't work and what are the other options. Sometimes they're they'll tell us what they've done but they're not willing to explore other options. But I I feel like we probably get more of that background information than
022would necessarily be presented at a formal hearing. >> No, that that's helpful. Um, and then my last question on this section is really for the administrators in the room. Um, and the reason I asked is that sometimes we get expulsion information and it like page after page after page of like or poor decisions. Um, and so my question is kind of what is the tipping point from your perspective because I don't think any of our students come to school like I want to have a terrible day. I want to wreck as much stuff as possible. And like I don't think any of our kids come to school with that mindset. So what is kind of the process of before a child gets to an administrative hearing like okay we got 10 offenses here. Okay we
023got 17 like whatever the number is and I get it's not just a number. Um, but sometimes when I'm looking at expulsion packets, I'm like, why in the world has this been going on for 2 years and we're just seeing this? Um, and and I don't know what I don't know. So, I need your help. What is the tipping point in behavior circumstance, the impact of other students and adults in the building where you're like, "All right, we got to call it." >> We we um we kind of have a number. There's a couple different criteria, but an objective concrete one would be number of 200 level referrals. So, current levels 200 would be a little more serious than 100, less than 300 or 400. So 200 is a good marking point for us. The
024other side of it is slightly arbitrary because I can't pick a number that gives me 70 expulsions, right? I have to have a number that kind of fits what's going on at the school. So for us that's been 10 200 referrals and that's just one way to trigger a behavior contract. I shouldn't. All right. So, you know, there's uh there's that. Um and that that's worked well. Um but we're they're in the probably a tier 2 behavior intervention much earlier than that. I mean, if 10 is what triggers the behavior contract, that's more at the end of the MLSS process. So, they're in SIG, right? um tier one meetings are happening amongst the grade level teams to talk about how to how to reach kids that are struggling and what they can do together in
025class. That's all tier one. Tier two goes to the MLSS team. We make suggestions to the grade team behavior intervention applied for the whole semester um academic lab. There are small groups. There are a lot of different things we can apply as tier two. Um but the objective number for us is 10 200 and then you know all that can be adjusted if there's a big nasty fight or something you know >> does that reset every year >> or like cumulative >> if a kid was on behavior we had thing where a kid was in alternative school and coming back or on a behavior contract we we we dip it to seven 200s for those guys. >> Okay. Do other folks and I'm ready to yield the floor back because I'm sure other people of
026course have things that are different. >> I would just say in addition to what Joe has said because we follow the same typical practices. I don't know if we have all the numbers down exact as as much as Joe has, but going through the whole uh MLSS process, making sure that we've done documented interventions at a variety of levels um helps us gauge whether or not we should be requesting an administrative hearing at any point in time, but also our experience with the process helps level set us as to what we can expect an outcome to And so if something is happening or happens that you know we could take it to a hearing, we could recommend expulsion, but it's not likely either to end it in expulsion or if it does go to the
027expulsion level. It's still likely to come back. We'll keep trying our interventions because we've had those experiences before. Um, so I would say that in addition to the MLSS process, um, weighs into some of our decisions as well as um, a lot of times we're working with students with disabilities. So there's separate processes that we have to go through when we're working with students with disabilities. Um, you know, the manifestation determination process. um sometimes, you know, results in not being able to move forward with a hearing. So, there's a lot of I feel like compounding factors that we play into all of it. >> I'll just add to you know, I've been at tourism for a year and a half and we Joe and I talk quite often. Um so, we try to level set
028all the time. Um, our buildings are pretty similar right now to say >> and we have we have the same sort of typical levels as far as what will uh trigger a behavior contract. And right now that's like 10 200 level referrals. And then um beyond that, that's kind of like our building level, you know, last chance agreement where you're on countdown now. If you get up to, you know, three, four or five more, um, we're we're talking to parents every time like, okay, one next one. Very very likely that I'm going to have to take you to a hearing. And of course, like we've been saying too, if you get up into the 300 levels, that's that's a higher behavior significance. So those numbers are much lower. So if you get in uh two
029kind of significant fights, uh but definitely by the third one, if you get in two scuffles, definitely by the third or fourth one. But if you get in one one or two one giant big nasty type that could trigger a hearing just by itself. So it's all usually injuries injuries. >> So that's all taken into consideration and context always matters once you get up into the the 300s. But I always try to uh have those conversations with parents and kids in advance so that that's on their radar and that tends to send the message and then once we get to that point it's kind of like we've been telling you this is coming and now we're here. So I think we start the messaging like in August when we have our back to school night
030we're saying we're starting that messaging from the getgo about you know things here guys you know so they're always aware of the expectations teachers tell we're always trying to help to support what I'm saying no >> and I just want to end with a compliment ment because I have been on the board long enough to review those expulsion packets that were incomplete that were just I I didn't even know what we were looking at. Um and those have changed dramatically. They're complete. They're thorough and and that's really helpful for us. So, thank you all for that. >> Oh, question. >> I just had some like who are you questions. So, are you employed by this? Like, are you part of a firm first? Yes. >> Yes. So, Bryce and I both work for Law. Um,
031started out our kind of main office is in Jainsville. We've got an office just downtown in Deote. Um, and then we just opened last year at Little Satellite office in Sbury and Madison. So, >> and you're employed by the district to do this then? >> Uh, yes. So, we are contracted by the district to be administrative hearing officers. >> And so, you're attorneys, right? Correct. Okay. And so, like is there something like special training or things that you do to become you >> as far as like this kind of stuff goes? >> Yeah. No. Um, so I took over for another attorney from our office and so I kind of trained with him and learned the process. Um I kind of changes year by year. Last uh I think it was last summer we sat
032down with the um the school admin and talked about kind of process and what that looks like. um just kind of individually and for my education, I do um like continuing education on some of the um school law so that I know what needs to be included in my referrals for expulsion and notices. But um as far as like specific training, I there's nothing that like no boxes that I have to check for certain hours. that said I'm able to give data recommendations. >> Thanks Carol. Um and I don't know if some of this might come later more piggybacking on what um Amy was we were just talking about with the building principles. um a little concern about um what triggers some of these other interventions like suspension um and you know and I don't
033know if you know you have a a way especially at the elementary to do in school suspensions or how do you use the special services people? Um, and I'm asking some of those questions because we've seen things in some of these board packets and and some of them are old, so maybe history and maybe things have changed. Um, but you know, there's some kids throwing stuff around in the classroom. Um, they go down and meet with a counselor and half hour later they're back in the classroom and then they're throwing things around in the classroom. And so I'm just wondering if we have good processes in place for what triggers certain things and suspensions, you know, um prior to um where you winding up going to an expulsion. I >> think that I think that
034we have a behavioral process at the building level. I think a lot of it results at least in the elementary from my experience thinking about safety for students and for adults and it is very hard to do an inschool suspension with the elementary kids because many of them can't sit for a long period of time. Um sometimes the upper elementary we can do that um but it's pretty rare. Um but I think safety is kind of usually the factor of whether or not a student's going to be suspended or not. Um I think that's what you're asking. Yeah, it's just there and again some of them are older so I don't know again I got a sense in the previous conversation that people felt like they couldn't um suspend or go to expulsion hearings. Um
035but it's like you know there's been time after time when it looks like serious pretty serious things are happening and and yet there is no suspension. So, um, just wondering if we have our processes clear enough for, you know, um, what should be triggering a suspension. >> We use in school suspension quite often, um, at the high school, but we also have, uh, designated person to oversee those processes. Um, so while we rely on our student services people to pro provide interventions to students who are in in school suspension, we have a whole separate person to help us manage inschool suspensions. Um, one of the things I will say we run into issues with is if a student should be out of school suspended, but we can't get a hold of a parent or anything
036like that, then we have to keep them in school until the end of the day and then their suspension wouldn't start till the next day. We have a lot of that. >> Also, you I thought you asked what triggers suspension. The code of conduct, you know, gives us a guide for all the one, two, three, 400 levels. 400 level. I don't have much choice. They're out five days gonna get arrested. It's going to cure. So from that kind of prescripted approach to more gray area 200, you know, it's a less egregious 200 or a more egregious or aggressive discipline. It's seventh or you know you treat a kid with eight referrals different than a ninth kid with two or third, right? And so all those kind of factors come into play. But, you know, I'm
037certain the objects. I can't speak for elementary, but like, you know, what are the objects of how school suspending a kindergartener? You know, you ask if if it's supported, I don't know. What are the optics out there? Do you guys love that idea? I mean, what but what options do they have? Right. >> So, there's it's maybe not so much someone telling don't do this, but just just the optics. But I can't speak for elementary school. >> I just I wanted to add to that. Um, so I want to speak to what uh in school suspension looks like for elementary schools. So we don't have a designated spot for in school suspension. That means going to another classroom. So it may look different in each of the elementary schools depending upon the sections that they
038have. So I'm going to speak for Mel. So I have one section of kinder, one section of one, two, three, and five, and two sections of four. So, if I have a let's pick a grade, first grader, um we're going to put them in school suspension because of whatever happened. Um that involves me putting them into another classroom, which is really just put them in a safe space and they're quiet with their computer or whatever work the teacher's given them because I don't have another section. They can't go into another classroom and get instruction during that time. they're just sitting in the back of a classroom really just being provided a safe space because a lot of times you can't get in touch with parents because parents are working or and like I said if
039you decided with the in school suspension option it's just put them in a safe space in the building but we don't have a designated in school suspension room you're going to another classroom and it's the same for any other grade in the building in my building >> and then Megan Hi, thank you so much. Are you able to hear me? Okay. >> Yes, we can. >> Okay, cool. Sorry I for the not being able to be there in person. Um, this is touching a little bit on what Miss Fox was talking about. Um, just one question. As board members, you know, we often hear complaints that like the board needs to do more to support buildings. So I understand like what that looks like and feels like as a board member given what I know
040and understand about like my role. So I my question really to sort of everybody else um as part of this process the way that you experience it I guess like from your perspective how can we as a board best support like administration and staff to improve you know leaning into that proactive and preventative system that you have in place like somebody just talked about this like it is um heart it's heartbreaking anytime we have to do an expulsion it's like the worst part of of this whole situation um especially when there's much younger kids. So, I'm just curious um I would personally love to receive any feedback you have of how we can better support you from like a policy or practice standpoint um to help make those proactive and preventative systems more effective. >>
041If you have any suggestions now, you can certainly think on it and get back to us. >> Absolutely. Yeah, I didn't mean to put anybody on the spot, but I mean I 107 we hear this frequently from I'm sure I'm not the only board member that's heard from a teacher or a community member like we got to do something more about these buildings and like like again I know what from my perspective that looks like but I you know I don't know what I don't know. So yeah, if you guys want to think on that and let us know I think that would for me I would really welcome that feedback. But thank you all so much for being here. I've really enjoyed the discussion. Thank you. I mean I bring up one thing that
042I think it's important for board members thing you may realize or not realize but the number of expulsions that we are processing in the last this past year are probably a lot more than you're used to seeing a lot more at the elementary I mean we have limited options we are trying to create options for next year but I think going through the process I think now Most of the buildings realize that if they have a child that they've tried everything they know to uh curb the negative behavior and it hasn't worked, they are now at least I think more comfortable bringing that uh student to administrative hearing and they're up to expulsion. So you know I mean people like to say well you should reduce the number of expulsions. fallen away. Having more expulsions
043means that at least buildings are recognizing that this is an option that they have when they've exhausted rest their options. >> And just to piggyback off of that, speaking of options, I I do believe we've had conversations just about the limited alternative opportunities that our students have. BLA exists as an alternative uh high school, but I know at the elementary and and the middle school levels, those are are definitely limited. I guess my question is on the process and trying to understand now building administrators they make a referral or no they get together go to Kelsey Bryce who team up and then you guys make a recommendation to Mark and Mark makes a recommendation to me to me it seems a little overlap is it a check and balance is it a duplicity somewhere along
044the I is couldn't be more streamlined. I mean, it all isn't a check and balance. I understand that. You know, it's good to have all eyes on it, but it seems a little bit redundant to me just looking at it. Then comes the board, then we hash it. So, I get it. Want to give every student an opportunity? But in this process, is there some streamlining could happen? I mean, part of this is the size of your district. All right. When I was in Mont, I probably did in 17 years 200 explosions. It didn't follow this process. What it followed is that the building principal would consult when they reached a certain level, they would reach, we would talk. Um if we thought a need to go to expulsion, then I prepared all the paperwork
045that needed to go out to meet the law. Um we then held the meeting in front of the board so that I would present the information uh to the board of why we were bringing a child to expulsion. The student and their parent or their attorney would then make their case. The board would listen to it. They would dismiss us. You would meet with your attorney, make a decision, and then that decision was then communicated. So, it was much more streamlined. But you have to realize if you take on the process to listen to all the expulsions that I think one of the reasons you went back this is extremely time consuming. I mean the normal expulsion hearing I would say easily lasted if it was quick two hours but it could be two to
046four hours or an expulsion hearing. So if you have and remember that's going right that's that's not a hearing expulsion that's we talk it goes to expulsion. So I mean everything that went to a hearing officer would go right to the board for decision you're talking about you would have to dedicate several more days every week to meetings. I think that's probably one of the reasons you went the route you did. That's one question. >> Well, I understand that brought in a bigger school district. My question is I guess it's between Kelsey and Rice to Mark that connection. >> Yeah. So I guess to clarify and because I think that um particularly that you've been on the board and were on the board when we were doing some of the hearings to the board. So
047um the kind of difference here is uh Mark stepping in sort of in that role of the board. Um partly the number of expulsions that we've been doing in recent years has increased a lot and so getting a uh getting the board together and finding a time that we could also be present to uh do those hearings was challenging. Um but in those hearing with Mark I serve in the same role there as I did with the board. So, um the um school admin brings referrals to me. I have those kind of initial conversations and try to serve in in my opinion kind of as like a neutral. If I'm not in the school, I haven't um had to, I guess, deal with and and address the day-to-day behavior. So, I get to come in
048with fresh eyes. Um and then if I am recommending expulsion, I then am stepping in on behalf of the district there. It doesn't require um the um superintendent or any of the other administrators who present. I step in before I know the district. I prosecuted those expulsions to Mark or to the hearing officer which then gets to you all for review. >> So I think just to I've been judge I've been a judge for 18 years but to kind of put it in that context what we're dealing with is due process. We have the cops prosecutors judge appeals. That's the easiest way to >> kindly um what you're describing was not my experience when we were hearing the uh expulsions directly versus hearing getting the recommendations um through the IHO. Does anyone have the numbers
049about how many expulsions we did when we were hearing them ourselves versus just this year? how many expulsions we've done because it wasn't my experience that it ballooned or skyrocketed in any way. You see, you were typing at your computer. Do >> you want administrative hearings? Do you want >> we wouldn't be even if we didn't have an IHO, the board doesn't sit in on administrative hearings. >> Yeah. And I I do think we have those numbers. I don't know if I report last year, but I I do calculate all of those numbers. I don't think that it has anything to do the I don't think an increase in expulsions has anything to do with board versus IHO. I just think there has been some increase both in requests for hearings and referrals for expulsion.
050No, that's not what I'm saying. Like there whether or not who's hearing the who's hearing the hearing doesn't impact how many hearings there are. It's just not it wasn't my experience that the board when we heard the expulsion hearings that there was one set of numbers and now that we have an IHO that is dramatically increased but those are being pulled so I can Okay. So while we wait for those numbers the next set of questions um are there any more board member questions? Okay. Next set of questions are for the independent hearing officer Markipos. Um, similar to the previous set, how do you receive the case for expulsion? >> Yeah, the process is that I'm contacted by a representative of the law firm uh to coordinate a schedule. Okay. So, we are obviously very
051sensitive to the timelines involved, making sure that we statutoilally meet those timelines. Um I would say this is one of the benefits you talk about like scheduling and superintendent Anderson mentioned that u by virtue of having an IHO we have greater flexibility schedule because we can do it during the day um and oftent times frankly more convenient for the students. So that's how it starts. They reach out to me we coordinate calendars we schedule a day for the hearing. uh I get notice from the district that they've you know provided the sufficient notice I can just double check that to make sure it hits the statuto requirements required under 123. So that's the process you know I'm contacted and I um literally just you know you know come on the schedule time. >> Thank you.
052What is your role in the process? >> Yeah. So, so I would just say my role is to administer justice, right? Is to um act on behalf of the board to ensure that the students due process rights are upheld. >> What decisions do you make and how do you pass those decisions on to the board? >> So, the decisions I make are one, I I determine whether or not uh the facts as alleged are supported by the evidence. Okay. And if so is um are do the interests of the school I should say um you know did it impact the conduct endanger the health welfare and safety of others at school on the provision of school authority and the interest of justice demand expulsion. Um and then the third question would be um what is
053the appropriate duration of that expulsion and you know kind of 3B would be uh what if any conditions would be applicable to that expulsion not taking into consideration the advisement that's provided by the administration's council and I would say I I lean heavily on that because I trust that you know and again My bias is that I've been a longtime school administrator. I was a former counselor at both middle school and high school level. So I I defer a lot to um the administration who are working closest to those child in in those situations and I I believe that their um intentions are coming from the right place. >> So deference to the administration's recommendation. And the last question before I open it to the board, is there anything else that you think is important
054for the board to know about the role? >> Yeah, I think um Miss Miller who mentioned that earlier, which is to say boarders don't uh you don't join a board to sit on expulsion hearings, okay? You want to be affecting uh public policy. You want to be working towards the betterment of your schools. And when you get involved in uh very contentious and sometimes very sad expulsion hearings, uh that is not, you know, one of the reasons that you want to be on the board. It's an important duty and it's an important duty that you delegate to a hearing officer, but it's something that you you should have enough confidence that when you delegate that I'm acting on the board's best interest. Um, but having said that, I think it's this one thing that the
055board has the authority to delegate, which is a very unpleasant task. And, uh, and then I want to just kind of point this out, too. And I've, and I've done it all, I've sat with the board of expulsions. I've done prosecutions. Um, when you do have an expulsion hearing, they can be adversarial, and sometimes administrators feel like they're put on the hot seat um, by questions that are asked from the board. And so they second guess themselves and it kind of erodess that uh that relationship between a board and administration. And that's just something I've observed over 20 years of doing this that sometimes you know administrators um often will then become apprehensive about bringing forward an expulsion because they don't want to take the abuse from you know what they consider to be the
056the court of appeals in this case. just my observations and and obviously any of the other attorneys who've been around a while can can chime in as well. >> Megan Miller, >> thank you so much. Um, just since since you brought up my name, I'll just weigh in a little bit. I really appreciate all of that perspective that you shared because you certainly do have an extensive background here. Um, I will just say for my lived experience as a board member, while um it's it's it's no it's no easier. I mean, regardless of um whether it's through an IHO or hearing it on our own, it's a worst case scenario, right, for students. Um, I thoroughly I don't want to say enjoyed because it's not enjoyable um when you're making such a hefty decision about
057a child's future and access to education, but um I I preferred when the board was hearing expulsions because um it gave me a sense of um respect and understanding for all parties involved. So, um, I would also just say that it is extremely important to me personally and I'm sure for for the other board members as well that our administration feels supported and respected by the board. So if at any point there has been or could potentially be in the future any type of um misunderstanding or clarity about like you know somebody's asking a question does that mean my um administrative you know like competence is being questioned or my trust is or trustworthiness is being questioned? I would just like personally clarify that that has never been the case and if there ever were
058confusion about that I think it would be extremely productive just to have some norm setting um you know maybe prior to just so that we can all be clear on like when questions are asked it's in the spirit of you know this and certainly not to antagonize or or um question anybody's credibility or or competence or anything like that. So I just um wanted to put those kind of those thoughts out there. Um, I think the value of the board having the contact with the entirety of the process really helped me have a much better understanding. Um, and it helped me be a better decision maker and certainly increased my respect for our administration and the operations of the district. >> Thank you. Any other board members have questions for Marco? >> Mr. >> Yes.
059the timeline Joe or Emily or any of you guys when you when you want to go this route call price and or >> Kelsey and then >> that's not the first step. First step is you do a hearing request. >> Correct. >> Within 24 hours form >> that you email >> have that email within 24 hours goes to superintendent >> and then they have to get back to you right within >> 24 hours. >> And then how long from Bryce and Kelsey to Mark? >> Uh they are required to be heard within 10 days. >> Okay. So then your action takes within 10 days of the trigger. >> Yeah. So they we have to have our hearing within the suspension period which is typically 5 days. Um so whatever day ours falls in if we
060recommend expulsion. We then have 10 days to conduct the expulsion here. Mcmark. >> A student cannot be suspended for more than five consecutive days unless they have a notice to I noticed for exposure >> and Mark then I well I know we've heard it but sorry. So Mark you you deal with us how long do we have once you don't we have 30 30 days from when I issue an order. Okay the board has 30 days to schedule that and then within that 30 days the board has to approve a verse or modify them. Okay. >> Thank you. Is there a reason um or an intentional thought process behind why we see so many expulsions with an expulsion period through the 21st birthday? >> Well, I'll start then I'll defer to the administration here. Um
061that would be done because if if a student is um student disable education that's the decision at least as I understand it >> but their access to educational opportunities and the expulsion period are two totally different things. So whether or not the expulsion period was for one day or through their 21st birthday, then we all know that students have access to educational opportunities through their 21st birthday. So my specific question again is when we look at expulsion recommendations almost exclusively um depending on the situation, it's through the 21st birthday. And I'm just wondering like what type of intentional thought goes into arriving at that so often? >> Uh I mean I can tell you that the reason that I typically include that in my recommendation is because I also put early return conditions and give
062students the opportunity to essentially earn their way back into an inerson school setting. And if they come back and are not able to maintain those um behaviors that allowed them to come back, they can then be removed from the school again without having to wait for another uh three or 400 level offense. If they cannot follow their return conditions when they return, they are then able to be their expulsion is reinstated without further hearing or their time that they're in school. So I when I'm making that recommendation, I consider both allowing the student an opportunity to earn their money back and a safe card for the school and for the uh school administration so that they do not have to wait and do another expulsion process >> and the district is not obligated to provide
063any educational services to themselves. we choose under re-entry. But if you do expel someone, the district is under no obligation after that if the child's been expelled provide any educational opportunities at all. >> Even special ed, >> special ed, but then go through expulsion if it usually goes through the manifestation and then he goes through maybe a potential change of placement. But for a regular ed student, it's not special ed, there is no legal responsibility to provide any educational opportunities once they've been expelled. >> The only other thing I was going to add, and Betsy helped me here, because we talked about this a lot, the 21st, but like so you expel somebody for two years and their orders expire, there's no obligation to go out and get any counseling or anything like that. They
064come back our student. If you expel somebody through 21 with early return to come back in two years, the early return, you must do this this this to be eligible to return after those two years. So that was a little bit of leverage too for us to encourage the families to get the support for the students that or the school to wrap up. >> So a few things. One, this is new information to me. I didn't think that expulsion washed our hands of our obligation to educate students, regular education students. Um, that is really disappointing. I'll put a pen in that. Thank you for leading us in that direction, Miss Beavers. Because I guess my more specific question, and this can be a both and, um, is the thought process behind expelling a student through
065their 21st birthday. Um, the two that I can think of, but there may be more categories. Please educate me if that's the case. one to provide that monitoring that you just brought up or two to make it easier for the district that we don't have to go through the expulsion process. If there continues to be an issue, we can be done. So, are there more categories that I'm not thinking of? Is it one or the other or a combination? >> Well, most of the time when the student comes back, that's when you have to really reenter. In other words, the recommendation might be there to go until 21, but they can re-enter, you know, at a given time, maybe at the beginning of next school year, if they meet the conditions set forth in the
066agreement. If they do, then the person comes back that the order usually also says that if they violate then those provisions that the original or expulsion automatic. >> No, I understand that. And so my question is, is the rationale behind that mainly because we will have this monitoring ability or two because it makes it easier for the district if the student has challenges upon re-entry a combination or is there some reason for this that I'm not thinking of? >> I think it's both of those. And also it gives the family and the student a metric of these are the things that I at least when I'm making your recommendation these are the things that I believe need to happen in order for you to successfully return to school and to be successful in an inperson
067uh environment. Um it allows when they then want to come back there's a clear list of expectations that they need to have met in order to return to inerson learning. And it we always recommend um if the student is reinstated early, they follow XYZ conditions. Often we recommend things like continuing counseling or following mental health requirements. Um often we'll recommend things um where there are incidents where there are um potential criminal charges that they continue to comply with probation. um which I think both encourages the family to continue receiving those services rather than saying I did the minimum that I needed to do to come back now I'm good and I'm done and there's no enforcement mechanism that the school would have to make them continue those services. Um, so when I'm making those recommendations,
068I'm considering how can we get you back in school and have you be successful and everyone is safe and back in school? What can I do to support the student and the school with continuing to be successful once you're back? >> That's helpful. or President Johnson, I also want to discuss um adjusting the expulsion period, but I don't know if this is the if this is the right time to have that conversation, >> but I didn't I can't read lips. That's okay. President Oh, okay. Thank you. Any other questions for Markus? Okay, the next set of questions is for Scott Mesh from WSB. Scott, can you hear me? Okay. >> Yes. Can you hear me? Okay. >> Yes, I can. Thank you. >> All right. Thanks. >> Thank you for being here today. >> Absolutely.
069>> First question is having the process you um you just cut out. All I heard was having heard the process. >> Hey Scott, sometimes um when they're in the boardroom there is some kind of like weird sound issue." Okay. >> So, I'm just going to go back on mute, but just just to let you know, I don't think they like hung up on you or anything. >> All right. Yeah, I heard the first few words of the question. >> It's always a fun time with the technology. >> Yes, absolutely. Uh, Megan, are you still there? >> Yes, I am. Do you think it would be worthwhile for me to leave and try getting back in or should I just wait? Um, >> I just texted >> Yeah, I don't know. I just texted Michelle Schop
070and she's our board secretary who's sort of running the meet and then I texted >> another board member. Let's see if I can get somebody to respond. >> Okay, >> first maybe. Um, because otherwise I mean it's not going to hurt. I mean I'll be here and and it'll still like it'll still be an open link so whatever you're comfortable with. I'll wait for a minute. Then maybe I'll if that doesn't work, I'll uh I'll leave and try getting back in. >> Sure thing. All right. Here. I'm just texting Tia, too. I just I don't know how often she checks her phone during meeting. >> Okay. All right. We'll see what they say. I'll let you know if or when I hear anything. >> Okay. Thank you. get that number on expulsions and do they
071take money away from the district? Well, if if the student is I mean we go for enrollment if the student was a regular student was enrolled and they were given the opportunity to come back and that failed and then they no longer became a student then you couldn't count that student anymore in your numbers right but if they get out like in November It didn't impact it doesn't because you're counter but that's I mean you can't use the financial I mean are they one >> you guys there can you hear me? Okay >> yeah you got you got three three words into my section and uh and all heck broke loose. So Try again. >> Can we hear you? >> Can you say something? >> Oh, sure. I I can hear you guys fine. Can
072you hear me? >> Okay. Can you hear me now?