001look okay good evening everyone it's 602 p.m my name is Claire McKenna and I'm the chair of the Ann Arbor energy commission I'm calling this meeting to order and I'm attending from Ann Arbor uh welcome to September 12th uh the September meeting electronic meeting of the energy commission we will conduct this meeting like in-person meetings Commissioners during roll call please indicate your current location also during the meeting please remain on camera just as you would be visible during in-person meetings finally meet your microphone when when not speaking public comment will be via telephone only to speak during any of the public comment opportunities please call one of the following two toll-free numbers -853-5247 or 888-788-0099 and under the meeting ID number 956-8718-7876 on your phone this information is also available on the published agenda in
002the Public Notices section of the city website and on the broadcast of this meeting on CTN Channel 16 and 18t channel 99 and of course online at a2gov.org watchctn Joe would you please read the land acknowledgment statement yep me one second um I acknowledge that the land the city of Ann Arbor occupies is the ancestral traditional and contemporary lands of the anishinabe including the Odawa Ojibwe and bodewad me and why in dot peoples I further acknowledge that our city stands like almost all property in the United States on lands obtained generally in unconscionable ways from indigenous peoples excuse me the taking of this land was formalized by the Treaty of Detroit in 1807 knowing where we live work study and recreate does not change the past but a thorough understanding of the ongoing consequences of
003this past can Empower us in our work to create a future that supports human flourishing and justice for all individuals thanks Joe now can you uh let us know if there are any known or excuse absences and then take the Roll Call you bet I've heard from council member Briggs and commissioner Levin that they will not be able to make it tonight um and with that let me just check make sure no one else is in the attendees um list there okay um commissioner Berkowitz right as you're taking a sip sorry for that perfect timing present from my home in Ann Arbor um commissioner Colvin Garcia president from Ann Arbor um commissioner Hans I'm not seeing yet um commissioner harp uh present joining for Ann Arbor commissioner McKenna present commissioner mursky presence participating from my
004home in Ann Arbor um give me one second got someone in there um commissioner overpeck hi sorry about that uh present from my home at Ann Arbor oh good um commissioner or councilmember radina you're in Ann Arbor commissioner Sandra uh present from Ann Arbor commissioner Smith president from Ann Arbor and commissioner zitelman presence in Ann Arbor and I see commissioner Hans just joined we're just doing roll call if you can just say you're president and where you're joining this from president from my home in Ann Arbor great thank you uh chair you have a quorum okay thank you very much and is there a motion to approve the agenda as posted in a second second commission murski thank you so much um Commissioners please raise your hand if you want to propose changes or discuss
005an issue to the agenda okay uh See No Hands raised all those in favor are approving the agenda as posted please raise your hand and say aye bye okay great and uh senior unanimous vote the agenda is approved is there a motion to approve the minutes as posted so moved commissioner murski thank you and a second commission brookwoods thank you so much Commissioners please raise your hand if you want to propose changes or discuss an issue great and see no no hands raised those in favor of approving the minutes as posted please raise your hand and say aye hi hi fantastic and uh there's the unanimous vote there and so the minutes are approved all right we're going to move to the public input section of our meeting here this is an opportunity for people
006to speak for up to three minutes if you are watching on CTN please call 888-788-0099 or 877-853-5247 and under the meeting ID 956-8718-7876 this information is also displayed on the meeting agenda and video feed do these apps will select callers that have raised their hand one by one using the last three digits of your phone number to electronically raise your hand to indicate your desire to speak please press star 9 on your phone you will hear an automated announcement that the host is allowing you to speak when speaking please move to a quiet area and you any television or background sound so that we may hear you clearly please say your name and address at the beginning of your comments um caller ending in one three four thank you Mr Lang and chair McKenna this
007is Ken Garber I live at 28 Haverhill Court thank you for putting this fee proposal on tonight's agenda uh disclosure I wrote it um I expect several objections first this will push development outside the city reducing density and increasing sprawl I don't think this will happen but say it does this is like saying if we stop companies from dumping untreated sewage into our River they'll just go elsewhere where sewage is not regulated and will lose all the benefits so let them pollute uh no someone has to take the lead second objection this is a tax not a fee and under the heavy Amendment voters must approve any new tax I think this is clearly a fee but for argument's sake let's call it a tax fine put it on the ballot for voters to decide
008that's what Burlington Vermont did voters in March there approved their fee which starts at 150 a ton and goes up annually with inflation then there's the argument that this will make housing more expensive because the cost will be passed on to homeowners and renters that's only true if developers choose to build with gas even now there's no valid reason to do that and with this fee anyone building with gas will be at a competitive disadvantage all this reflects a misunderstanding of the climate crisis we hear that all electric buildings are nice to have but there are other priorities trade-offs affordability and density are just as important setting aside the fallacy that these and electrification are mutually exclusive we've run out of time when it comes to climate we've almost exhausted our carbon budget for 1.5
009degrees that's now baked in along with all the suffering displacement and death it'll bring although inertia and Global Systems will delay the Reckoning somehow the idea persists that rich countries have until 2040 or 2050 to decarbonize that's not what the carbon budgets say for two degrees it's 20 35 at the latest true zero not Net Zero and fossil fuels and new buildings are particularly destructive that's because they're not a one-time thing we're locking in half a century of emissions and that carbon then stays in the atmosphere for centuries more we should have banned gas in new construction years ago the focus now should be on retrofitting existing buildings but we are where we are this fee isn't enough but it's a positive step 30 seconds thank you so thank you for considering it um if
010anyone is interested in the data and calculations behind any of the whereas clauses I have them and I'd be happy to provide them thank you um no further callers fantastic okay so we're going to be moving to the oh yes uh council member Regina would you like to share something yeah apologies I I should have raised this during our agenda we do have a new commissioner and I wonder if it would be beneficial to add absolutely round of introductions thank you so so much for offering that um shall we Joe would you like to lead us in that important exercise sure yep as uh Seattle could see we got a new commissioner I'll start with all the existing Commissioners as order on my screen and then we'll swing it over to our our new commissioner
011to introduce themselves um so just quick rundown of who we are uh whatever you want to say about why you're on the commission and some of the stuff you do and why you're here so um commissioner harp hi there welcome um uh my name is Gabriel harp I've been on the energy commission for just about a year now and uh been uh back in Ann Arbor um as a resident for about seven years on this stint um uh originally I'm from uh east side of Detroit and um I've been sort of working um in different areas of of policy technology and science um for for a while um during my day job I worked for the Tubman College of architecture and urban planning as the director of research and creative practice development and so welcome
012uh commissioner Mercy hello I am a retired uh business unit executive uh from uh the German conglomerate Bosch uh I'm a former chair of the energy commission I'm also serving as the liaison from our commission to the environmental commission and I'm involved in a number of other climate and energy related uh advocacy groups as well as housing advocacy groups good to meet you uh council member radina thanks I'm Travis rodina I am the city council member for or one of the city council members for word three um I've been on Council since 2020 and have been on the energy commission for that full time so welcome thanks uh commissioner Smith welcome uh yes that's a pleasure to introduce my name um self my name is free Smith uh I have a background experience across kind
013of Energy Efficiency some renewable energy and um you know most recently Transportation electrification serving as the Director of Transportation electrification strategy for Edison energy assisting kind of commercial uh companies uh in their kind of Fleet electrification developing business case strategy road maps and implants uh accordingly again looking forward to working with you here it's uh commissioner zitelman hi I'm Alex I am the VP of facilities at the ICC I studied public policy at U of M this is my second year on the commission my interests generally re lie around energy housing affordability transportation and student life so any of that sounds interesting feel free it talks to me thanks uh commissioner Berkowitz hello and welcome uh I'm Mike Berkowitz I use he him pronouns I'm over uh uh on the old west side in Ward
014five um I'm coming up on my one year anniversary of becoming a commissioner uh here and um let's see my day job I do uh energy policy uh covering the state of Michigan for a nonprofit called Elevate um we ensure people have access to uh clean and affordable heat power and water at the in residential buildings as well as multi-family buildings and uh before joining Elevate I worked for the Sierra Club leading their Beyond coal campaign and doing work at the state capitol so good to virtually meet you and look forward to working together uh commissioner sendra hi there uh my name is Jacob Sandra I'm a lifelong edible resident an undergraduate student at Michigan this is only my second meeting as a member of the commission so I don't have too much of an
015introduction yet but I'm very excited to welcome you and to get to work you uh commissioner McKenna hi um it's so great to have you here and I'm sorry that I overlooked this important part of the agenda but I wanted to share that um uh this is about my third meeting as a chair and I've been on the commission for about a year I'm currently a PhD student at U of M and I study electrification at Residential Heating and and the kind of equity impacts around energy cost changes that come along with that um I had a decade-long career before coming to the PHD um working in building engineering so very familiar with um you know uh MEP mechanical electrical Plumbing Systems for buildings and I would say buildings is my primary area of expertise
016and I'm super excited to have you on the commission and and um and have your valuable feedback so thanks commissioner overpeck all right uh I am Jonathan over back I go I packed with all my friends and uh you're all my friends and I'm a climate scientist been a climate scientist for about too many years to mention academic climate scientists working on understanding the problem but also on Solutions both mitigation and adaptation I'm the governor's Michigan climate Solutions Council I was also on the University of Michigan's presidential commission on carbon neutrality that divides the plan we're now implementing and I am the dean of the school for environment and sustainability please thanks and commissioner Colvin Garcia hi Mark welcome to the commission it's great to see you my name is Carlene Colvin Garcia during the
017day I'm the treasurer for Ann Arbor Charter Township I also am uh working to bring EV charging systems to multi-unit dwellings utilizing my project management skills I have been with the Ann Arbor energy commission since 2017 and I'm the uh the recent past Vice chair of the energy commission and it's great to have you on board thanks as as mentioned we had two who are unable to join us uh we have uh council member Eric Briggs and um commissioner Noah Levin who are also here but not here today um so Mr Hans I'll turn over to you to give a quick introduction and what uh what brought what brings you here hi everyone thanks for the warm welcome I appreciate it I uh am a native and all right um born and raised here I
018would say um much like Gabriel I have gone other places but returned here several times and this would be um my fourth year back uh for this current stint um I am a union electrician uh specifically in the commercial and Industrial sector I got very interested in um infrastructure specifically as a health and environment volunteer with the Peace Corps in West Africa where I found that civil infrastructure um was the biggest barrier uh sustainable Equitable infrastructure was the biggest barrier to health of the communities that I was in and as a result every community that I had been a part of which led me down the road to now being a um an electrician so I hope I can offer um my expertise in that realm and uh my life experience in all of our
019discussions I am looking forward very much to working with all of you thanks so much and thanks everyone for another round of another round of introductions I feel like I learned something new about someone every time we every time we do these even though I see you every month um so chair back to you we changed Joe you can't pin us down hey it's like at least a couple of us have a new job I was surprised okay fantastic well we are going to move into the portion of the agenda where we discuss this resolution um I'm going to kind of outline how I see this discussion going and kind of what I expect for the first reading and I also want to use my privilege as the chair here on having the floor to
020kind of kick off the discussion and kind of try to orient it towards um you know what I think is some of the most important elements of this so just so everybody knows this is you know the first reading of this resolution so we're not going to be voting on anything tonight but we are going to be um you know reading it through and having a discussion in detail about what people like and maybe what they don't like and Visions for what this resolution could be overall and of course what the you know what the main goals are of um proposing something like this um so I think it's it's very important that we you know as stated in the whereas Clauses that we that we start to look at um regulating carbon emissions and
021new construction um and this is definitely one possible way to do it that I don't think has been explored in depth and so I think this is very important and I'm happy to give it time tonight um so like I said this is the first reading we're not going to vote on anything but we we can make edits as as a group if we'd like um but I think I'd like to have a more General discussion around what everybody thought of their first reading um I would also like to read the resolve Clause um and then and then briefly comment um before before opening up the floor so Joe would you like to share that I can I'll read it from my screen and you can yeah let me pull up the correct tab of
022the too many I have open okay let me zoom in so it's readable right so for anyone who doesn't have this pulled up for themselves this is some please read along so resolve that the Ann Arbor energy commission recommends that city council approve by ordinance modification of city code chapter 55 article 5. administrative bodies and procedures by adding the following subsection to section 5281d fees the following fees are authorized by this chapter and shall be by resolution of the city council upon recommendation of the city administrator carbon pollution impact fee fee reflecting the social cost of carbon shall be assessed for all newly approved buildings with a connection to natural gas lines that serve the building's primary heating system one the fee shall be assessed based on Total Building square footage according to building type
023energy use as specified by table CZ 103.1 of the 2021 International energy conservation Code Zero code appendix two the conservation factor of 12 uh sorry 13 kilograms of CO2 equivalent per 100 kilo kbtus shall be applied three the fee shall be in the amount of 190 per metric ton of carbon emissions equivalent and the fee shall be paid prior to the issuance of certificate of occupancy then each subsequent year on or before that date in the absence of retrofitting to eliminate gas connection for primary heating purposes okay so um I would just as I mentioned um just wanted to kick off the discussion so uh I I heard the um you know the author Ken Garber call in at the beginning of the meeting here and kind of encourage us to um consider this because
024um kind of foreseeing that some of our objections would be around Taxation and sprawl and um you know uh hesitancy to to act on a new development and I would like to share that I don't think that those are the main objections that I have um currently um I would like to kind of um point to the fact that hold on let me just quickly bring up my notes um I'd just like to the point of the fact that um this what's being proposed here I think is a very important Avenue to consider when we think about limiting natural gas and new construction um but I want to be really um clear and um intentional with the fact that what's being proposed is actually quite a complex change to the way the city might run
025um it involves multiple it could involve you know not necessarily stated here in the resolution but as I see it playing out I think it could involve multiple Departments of the city and the complaining I'm thinking um the billing department um you know planning in in first you know activating that initial charge upon City certificate of occupancy and then the building department you know in um and how to kind of implement those fees moving forward um let's say over a year maybe through an inspection process um I also have questions around you know how would this fee be calculated essentially around energy use and um and so what I'm trying to say here is that you know this is um really important to consider but I think it it brings up a pretty complex potential
026new way that the city might operate in trying to regulate carbon this way and of course this has been done not only not in Ann Arbor but definitely um there's limited applications of a carbon infuser or carbon taxes I will say um similar to this and so um yeah I just wanted to share that that I think that this is for me a question a lot more process um and I think it's a really important one that I'd like to dive into and of course I want to hear any other questions that that people have um and of course we'll be recording them um but yeah I'll kind of leave it at that and say that I think this is much more so a question of process rather than should we or should we not
027move forward with it and then what language would we need to reflect that um how to make that a better process for the city to actually implement this and Joe can you stop sharing so I can see the paper yeah probably be easier are you opening the floor for comments yes thank you very much I'm opening the floor for comments and seven back actually probably what we need to do first is have a motion and a second and then open things for discussion and I think isn't that right Joe that's probably yeah prove a second and then open for discussion just to address the formalities sure can we have a motion to to open this for resolution for discussion thank you commissioner Beck and a second thank you commissioner Mercy all right the floor is
028now open for discussion uh I'm has anyone done any calculation of what this means for the uh how it translates to the cost annual cost to the average building in sort of the range of buildings we might have in the next 10 15 20 years and the second question is um is there any provision for being Progressive um or is there any feasibility of that yeah I love the idea is there anything else no okay I love the idea of being Progressive um I I wanted to share that I had an idea that maybe it could be um the fee could be assessed as a basically a Delta between like if the project we're going to move forward with natural gas then the fee could be assessed as a Delta against what the electrical heating
029emissions would be and then as the grid gets Greener um that Delta increases but right now it's it might be closer than we think and so that might be a way to you know minimize the impact right up front but of course build in um the ability to kind of um insert the wedge a little bit more um um in future years and just from from my end in terms of has calculations been done or whatnot this uh kind of came through a little a little later it was shared with uh some of the city staff who work in this area and there just hasn't been enough time or uh to get anything on that um in terms of calculations go ahead thank you I'd like to comment um in a couple of regards um
030first of all I think we should all remember that we passed a resolution and calling for a natural gas ban and um that's not going anywhere um I wanted them to highlight the fact that um Joe sent out an email uh yesterday with a list of measures that could be used um as incentives for Builders Architects and contractors working together to um build energy efficient all-electric buildings that are compliant if you will with the a20 resolution that was sent out to everyone I don't know people have had a chance to look at that it's roughly 25 to 30 measures I encourage you to look at that um just so everybody knows those were reviewed well first of all the entity that put those together is the wolf pack that is a group of Ann Arbor
031uh residents well Ann Arbor area residents residents I should say that are very involved in environmental issues in general including line five but also climate related activities um so this was a result of a multi-brain multi-meting brainstorming activity I encourage you to look at that those are potentially things that could be done in place of this resolution or in addition to the resolution or multiple uh measures in that list could be combined um to basically try to drive the same kind of behavior where we want to see new new development that's done with in compliance with uh the compliance with the assumptions at the age of zero plan so um I I encourage you to to take a look at that um and um keep that in mind um as we discuss this or potentially
032vote on it um I think that's all I'll say for now but I may comment on something later thank you councilmember rodina thanks chair McKenna um I have a number of I guess I would say concerns or cautions similar to to the ones that you echoed at the b or that you mentioned at the beginning of the meeting so I would Echo those um without repeating them I I also I guess I'm looking at this and have a few questions um some of them are reflective of the things brought up by the caller at the beginning of the the meeting I I am concerned about um kind of this continuing we have a continued a continual kind of battle between our our joint climate crisis and our housing crisis here in Ann Arbor and that
033and I do have concerns about the growing cost of housing in the city um and so I would like to see a bit more on what the expected average cost would be for for the average construction um that goes into Ann Arbor um also acknowledging that we are starting to see a bit more of a trend toward all electric proposals coming to council I think in the last uh few meetings we have we approved the um I guess a few months ago now the 79 unit North Maple apartment complex the 216 unit South Town complex and the 228 unit South Forest uh development all of which will be are proposed to be all electric and so we are seeing that that kind of trend and that shift away from um from gas although I will
034add that some of those are still requesting I actually don't know if any of these specifically are but I I know that I've heard some requests for continuing to have natural gas as a backup generator option um and wondering if that would be an impact of this as well that's a question that I have is if if a building is proposed to be all electric but has a natural backup a natural gas backup generator if that would assess a fee um and similar to to Peck's question I I have a um I guess I would like to know the average cost for uh and or I guess the cost for an average new building in the city um but also by my reading of this um this is only for newly approved buildings um and
035doesn't acknowledge the kind of continuing climate burden that older buildings have in the city and and I guess the the reason I raise that is because of the uh this isn't just a one-time fee that somebody has assessed when they build a new building but rather it's a continuing year after year fee until they retrofit and so it strikes me potentially is a bit odd that we'd be creating kind of a class of buildings in the city that are eligible for a fee um but some of our older likely less efficient buildings would not be subject to that fee um and so that that kind of strikes me as a bit strange and something that I'd be interested in learning a little bit more about um because as as we move forward with with trying
036to get our carbon emissions under control here in the city um I recognize that moving forward we obviously want to um do everything that we can but um by kind of creating this additional class of buildings anything new that is constructed having a fee assessed to them but the older buildings not having anything attached um to encourage retrofitting just kind of seems like a maybe a potential oversight here um but finally I guess I will just add that I want us to be very cautious about some of our work in climate consistently kind of being the Stick of the carrots and the sticks uh approach um it feels like often what we're recommending um are penalties and fees um rather than incentives for folks to make Transitions and to get on board and I do
037want us to continue to get the community excited about doing this work um and that just constantly the fear of being penalized by the city um and so those are just a few of my concerns I see other hand so I'll maybe continue thinking and maybe come back for another round but um those are just off the top of my head thanks yeah I think we should hold the kerosene sticks um that's a theme here and I'd like to hear what other people have on that too um Vice chair harp around me thank you um just to build on that thank you just to build on the exact point um I'm wondering about the commissioner's openness to um perhaps using this resolution as an opportunity to build on the previous resolution that was passed by
038by the Commission in part to help um identify a range of carrots and sticks and sort of more more precise uh definition or range of options um as as as options to to further explore with um different city staff and and others around the community um so I think I think uh a sort of broader list would be helpful for for a wide range of folks as well and an opportunity to sort of discuss and perhaps weigh in a variety of different options um in addition to that one thing that seems to also keep coming up is the sort of question about the perceived or apparent trade-off between affordability and and sort of move away from fossil fuels as a as a as a fuel source for for housing and I think that's something that
039the commission perhaps could take up either in the form of a sort of request for what kinds of analysis or modeling might be helpful to sort of explore that um that we might need to sort of ask for from elsewhere in the community or or from City staff or others because I think that's something that that has been raised in a variety of different forums and that's something that we could probably get some data on or a little bit more or intuitive ways of wrapping our heads around that um and and making some choices about what that looks like whether it's in the near term or the long term or relative to other uh price fluctuations and things like that that might be out there um and so that's a question that that maybe is
040also worth exploring as part of as part of the kind of work that we might do to look at look at some of this um I would say that I would also love to see um some intuitive examples associated with some of the the um uh whereas Clauses for example of what this might look like in terms of costs for like a single family home or multi-family homes or something like that and how that translates um and I think lastly this might be a question sort of later on the discussion um as we take this up what might be the sort of timeline for how we take this up into the future and future meetings relative to the other agendas we have agenda items we have and sort of when what might be the sort
041of um perceived process for how we might go about that and and maybe Joe or others might be able to sort of lend some insight into that so we have a sort of sense of what what that Horizon looks like and and how we might involve others in the process thanks thanks I didn't see who had their hand up but I'll go with commissioner mursky thank you a couple of other points that I'd like to make uh I think I failed to mention that this list was shared with the mayor uh and with council member Briggs and council member dish in mid-july um it was sent to Missy at the end of July she had already received it from the mayor um as to my understanding also that Derek de la Court received it um
042in July the one really significant concern that I have is we we all acknowledge and the city has declared that we're in the middle of a climate emergency the a20 plan was drafted in early 2020 it was approved in June of 2020. it assumed that by 2022 that all new construction would be all electric and would be essentially Net Zero ready and here we are in September of 2023 and we're still grasping at I'll say measures that would either be carrots which everybody keeps on saying is preferred um or sticks or a combination of the two and yet we still don't know what our plan is going forward so we're three and a half years into essentially a plan what we where we knew the content and we still don't have a path forward on
043how we're going to change Behavior relative uh in terms of developers relative to building uh a20 compliant construction so what I would like to see is is action somehow and also a timetable for that action as opposed to just a plan with assumptions that aren't backed up with with clear path forwards to get to the kind of outcome that we want to see um just a couple of other things um just as a reminder we already have implemented commercial um energy benchmarking that's in place and the the threshold uh for that reporting um dropped again this year um The Herd uh or home energy rating disclosure ordinance was passed uh last week and the green rental housing program which also then at least has presented to us last October uh would require Energy Efficiency upgrades
044for rental properties in order to get certificate of occupancy so there are actions being taken in in other regards and what this is just as I see it is attempting to try to button things up or at least spur action on the part of the energy commission and city council to do something so that we are in compliant with a a plan that city council approved unanimously three years ago that's I'll leave it at that thank you thanks commissioner mursky that I want to share it kind of brings up for me the herd ordinance um and I don't know how close we feel for watching that process but um you know the amount of work that was done for public engagement um with all stakeholders on the part of city council um thank you so
045much for the work that you did um customer Medina and um and also City staff and trying to understand of course like um commissioner Mercado that was a long time in development and um you supported the development of that um that ordinance from the beginning um but just knowing the amount of work that goes into not just picking the right uh ordinance or the right approach like the right technical approach but how much um collaboration that goes into actually getting um you know the will to make that happen um I just wanted to share that that's kind of where I was where I was going with my opening remarks in the sense that um I think we need to move towards the research that it takes to find out what the correct technical approach is
046and then also understand that that's going to take a lot of consensus building and um you know going through the essentially the political process to make that that a reality so I wanted to share that um you know offer this and hear comments um what would it look like to use this resolution to um you know kind of get city council to prompt the city administrator to to do this research around um you know maybe it's the carbon fee maybe it's one of these um nine elements that you know approaches that that have been offered to us um because I think that a lot more research is needed and like we maybe can't select the specific approach to make the um the a20 goals happen around specifically around um uh building emissions I think we
047lost pack I don't know he fell off yeah I don't see him and not in the attendees either so maybe see oh there's got stuff and when he comes back because I know he had his hand up again pull them in then I'd like to say one more thing oh yes go go ahead I was just gonna ask you right uh I I just wanted to let everybody know that there are standard um energy modeling tools to model uh the amount of energy or the energy load the heating load um for new construction um one of the models is actually a department of energy model uh I actually worked with a couple of other people to apply those models to the apartments uh that were that are being built as a part of the village
048of Ann Arbor development uh Pontiac Trail in duvaren and so some of the questions that are open and I failed to to look up that up um in advance of this meeting um but the questions about estimating the heating load and therefore then estimating the cost of this um per unit is something that can easily be done and some of the questions about how you then would arrive at the at the heating load the resolution could be modified for example to say that we would pick one model or for example the doe model or we would pick three models and average the results of those models and apply the fee that way so I just wanted to assure everyone that there is um and indeed a technical approach to to doing that um and that
049is something that is uh as I said and certainly in the one case something that's approved by the US government for estimating votes yeah absolutely and yeah no doubt that there are technical models that would work for this but the question that I have is what is the process around requiring that model I mean who's doing that modeling is that City staff is that going to be a requirement I think it should be a requirement of the developer but my understanding is that we don't currently have in Michigan that's not part of the energy code and Ann Arbor doesn't allow you know the the doesn't allow or machine doesn't allow cities to add additional requirements right so right now we don't have energy modeling as a part of the development process and planning process and
050I agree that would be an absolutely essential move we can't just use Baseline uis for the buildings we need to know what the proposed building energy use is and and frankly um use you know metering and actual data along the way if we're going to actually continue to charge fees in subsequent years after occupancy um but but for me this is a question about process and um and I'm just wondering you know what is it going to take to get those models can I respond to that real quickly yes developers working with their Architects and their engineering firms typically do that in order to establish the heating load in order to establish the mechanical systems so yeah there is an estimate that's that's done that way yeah right I'll just push back on that though
051because you know that was my job for a decade and um sizing models don't don't indicate um a realistic energy use for the year that those are those two models are not really compatible um so like true energy modeling building energy modeling especially for complex buildings like if we think about you know a new lab building or something a big Residential Building or a mixed-use building those that's a full-on engineering exercise that I know is not included in the planning process right now we're talking about like you know fifty thousand dollar exercise let's say over the course of the the project and I've already seen from the pushback from the original natural gas ordinances that um the developers are not keen on adding any more engineering to their process I mean they don't even want
052to break like do a base comparison of about their energy their heating energy options are so I think this is a really serious concern uh councilmember rudina thanks uh sorry to keep raising my hand I don't if others have thoughts I know a few of us have been kind of dominating this um one of the additional questions that I maybe have uh and Joe I don't know if this is a fair ask of you versus uh you know I'll take on some of this burden as well um but one of the things that I wonder as we go back to this carrots and sticks conversation is is there a Converse of this that could potentially be effective that um not only has the potential to to move the needle but also hypothetically have a positive
053impact on affordability by saying are there things that we could be uh could we chat with some of the developers that that we have relationships with in the city should we engage with the planning department are there fees or or challenges to our planning process that we could look at waving in order to incentivize um in this way and actually reduce some of the costs of doing business in Ann Arbor um without adding to the additional cost of of building here in the city um that's that's something that I'm potentially interested in looking at and I know obviously that that potentially comes with budget impacts as well and these are these are trade-off conversations that we have to have but but as the city has you know passed uh a climate millage as we've passed
054an affordable housing knowledge all of those things are are there ways that we can um it seems clear to me that these are priorities for the city and so are there other things that we can be looking at to incentivize developers to move in this direction um rather than just adding to the cost um acknowledging that uh potentially this you know if ultimately a developer feels like they can't make this shift um is it going to are they going to uh just continue to pay this fee in perpetuity or is it really that high that it is going to require them to make a shift I guess those are all still questions that I have as well I'll just say noting that I see Peck is back I know your hand was raised at one
055point for you poofed off into the universe so just wanted to check see if everything's good there you are muted right now though I suspect you got yeah thanks yo I think you guys have probably moved on though so join back in the flow but for some reason my internet failed for a couple minutes sorry about that we're still kind of discussing overall so if you wanted to if you wanted to throw stuff out there go for it you're you know well in that case I will because I have a stick that tastes like a carrot no I'm not sure if that's true um but uh I I really do want to weigh in with the others who highlighted a specialty commissioner mursky I guess uh the last one I heard um highlighting how we
056really are behind the eight ball here and sticks are necessary I mean but if wherever we can we should be looking for carrots and one big carrot is if done right are uh way of doing things will make energy and afford and housing more affordable uh and we need to figure out ways to incentivize demand and efficiency in buildings because that'll drive down the overall cost uh that people will have to pay and you know the other thing is of course to Electrify and it is also cheaper uh than the fossil fuels uh and it's heading that direction especially with the the cheaper technology that's coming online but we would need to show this to folks and the last piece of the puzzle is that we need to for sure going with what uh councilman
057Medina had to say we need to figure out I think it was you sorry uh we need to we really need to figure out a way to start decarbonizing all the houses and all the buildings in Ann Arbor not just the new ones but I do think if we focus on efficiency and electrification in the end we are providing deeper housing uh and that's important and and if we don't if we really want to make this Progressive I was thinking misinterpreting my comment on Progressive I mean in multiple ways to look at it but one of the things we need to do perhaps is figure out ways that low income homeowners you know obviously get a better deal uh and high income people uh pay more thank you commissioner mursky very quickly I would recommend
058that some of these questions certainly came up in Burlington Vermont when this uh was addressed in Council um has agreed now to Levy this the sea in terms of how to calculate the heating loads um admittedly Kevin Garber just texted me and said that he consent by email some information both to you Claire as well as to me so some of these questions that were coming up with uh are probably been addressed by Burlington they may have come up with other questions that we have yet not yet addressed that we probably need to and make sure that those uh are viewed from an Ann Arbor lens because our situation may be different than theirs for example the affordability issue maybe more acute here than there so I think you know some of these things need
059to be reviewed um um between talking about this tonight and a possible second uh reading uh further down the line yeah I'd like to add that I love that idea um I think Burlington's a really good um analogous City and size and of course they have a major our own University as well um I would like to just recognize um commissioner overpack and um your your what you shared about some of the modeling or you didn't use the word modeling but right some of the things that need to be explored I think those are modeling exercises and um from my experience they're quite complex um to really get it right just the the level of complexity around Future Energy costs um you know trade-offs not just the systems that we have today but kind of
060like you know I I would say even incorporating future climate um and just given how fast um that's changing and how it's impacting folks um you know you can layer on outages and utility reliability you know those are all the things that really matter and those aren't things that we're going to just think about and and decide um there's a really complex modeling exercises and so I kind of will provide another pitch there just to um you know is it possible to get city resources behind studying this I don't think this is something that necessarily our group can do although I'd like you know maybe um that's not the role that we have anymore just doing that modeling exercise I think it kind of just goes beyond maybe our Collective capability uh I just want
061to be realistic about that and say that you know I had my two cents and why hasn't anything been done I think we're getting to the point where there are no easy answers and the the complexity of what we're what we're facing um in terms of what is the right solution you know if it is a fee where does that money where does that Revenue go um can we use Keras in the sense of reducing development costs um you know we'll turn it over and over and so we really dig into the complexity of of what those trade-offs are I mean I haven't seen that done uh I think it's it was done for instance for heard um I just and how closely I watch that process but for this topic I don't think it
062has been done I think that that's what it's going to take to have something really viable come to council whether it's um you know something proposed by a council member or something gets passed along from us Michelle Cole and Garcia hi thank you uh I just have a lot of question marks in my mind right now and I'm wondering um you know as we proceed with exploring this as a as a possibility to look you know we're going to be looking at all the different um like what are what are the different components of what uh energy modeling it is you know so like uh commissioner mursky was making reference to I think the load calculation of a building right and um that's something that's pretty much done when you're sizing your HVAC system right
063you're heating the cooling system and so like what are the other elements that go into the energy modeling I'm very curious about that we have we have University of Michigan we have Eastern Michigan University we have Concordia we have Washington Community College we have a lot of resources here in this immediate vicinity that could possibly be tapped or creating you know a systemized exploration and inquiry that can help to create a um like some kind of a modeling structure uh for us it seems like he could be worth worth the coordination effort you know like who would be willing to take something like that on um you know people in the Building Trades there's people who are you know Engineers there's like this seems to me that that it's very systemizable even though yes like
064as you said you know every single building is unique right and um but there's got to be some way of approaching it thank you so much for that for sure we're back hello again um yeah uh very good points and I wonder um if we should be thinking of some kind I want to thank Ken by the way I think it's wonderful that uh citizens contribute to this um and I wonder if uh we could do some kind of a hackathon or I don't I'm too old to really know what that means uh but I'm just joking but we should try and engage the public and really getting a wide range and you know on you know including hopefully at those higher education and uh trades and whatnot that you just mentioned uh and see
065if we can get a range of ideas to add that to the range of ideas that the wolf pack is provided and and really try quickly to come up with the range of of possible solutions and our nodes and uncertainties and what we really need need to know and that would allow us to frame as quickly as possible a set of questions that we could then ask you know a professional to tackle and that professional could be in our our institutions of higher education or it could be a uh some kind of a consultant and we did when we did the work for the University um all the initial calculations were done on campus by students faculty and staff uh and then we double checked everything by hiring a consultant and the consultant was you
066know over a million dollars but um that gave the a senior Administration confidence uh that the numbers were something today's decisions on uh and that's not a you know even though in that case our initial assertions were all correct I think for the most part um because we had really great group of scientists providing the numbers from the University of Michigan but uh we still I think it's really good to double check everything because the implications here for individual Park pocketbooks and whatnot are high we want to get it right but we do need a process that isn't going to take two years to get there right that kind of bags of public engagement engagement too right right a certain group let's say it's it's one of these institutions how do we know we're getting
067all the um you know all it takes on who's affected and I think that that's kind of what the public process and the city definitely has um you know public engagement experts and um and and so leaning on leaning on that process could be a nice way to start to you know take this on an Earnest and like I said in a way that really um engages the complexity of of what needs to happen commissioner Coleman Garcia oh do you continue on with what uh commissioner Peck was describing is the process that the U of M went through I mean there are organizational process assets that can be tapped right like what are the formulas what were the you know what what are the you know what were the assumptions you know what were what
068were the materials and you know that were you know how are they how are they evaluated um so we could use existing material and then build off of what already exists of of from from energy assessments that have already been done at energy inventories and audits that have already been done and I know this doesn't address like you know the the conversation that you're interested in exploring that you um started out are this this part of our agenda on which is the carrots and the sticks but and I'm getting into the how-to part of it or the possible how-to part of it or the exploration part of it but um I just feel that that's something that while we're all here together having this conversation tonight we can start thinking in that way as well
069so thank you Mr mursky I want to quickly highlight one of the possible measures that are that's in the list that uh Joe sent out and that is uh one option open to the city is declaring a moratorium until these issues are settled out and uh that um yes we'll slow um the development um but it also allows time to settle some of these things I saw Travis shaking his head no there um but this this is what this is what jurisdictions do when they're grappling with difficult questions and as I might find out um do not want to dig a deeper hole and we have to be realistic when every one of these new developments that go into place this is not a window air conditioning unit that's going to last four years for
070five years this is a commercial grade system that is going to be Heating and Cooling the building for 20 plus years there are boilers in the basement of City Hall that I believe unless they've been replaced recently are approaching 50 years old so when these systems go in place they're going to be emitting carbon for 20 30 40 years and so I encourage everybody again to please look at the list and I encourage all of us to come up together with our council member Liaisons with a plan of what is feasible and what can be implemented soon because I'll say it again and as Peck pointed out we we are we we've known these issues for at least three years and we still don't have even a plan how to get to what is it
071an assumption in the a20 plan thank you commissioner robek yeah so you know one thing is policy to be a moratorium um I agree we can't take on we can't put in place uh more buildings that are going to be burning fossil fuel for decades to come I think this would just be a travesty um but uh so we need some kind of policy uh and one idea would be a moratorium another one would be a moratorium with a caveat that those installing all electric buildings are Exempted there's no carbon tax or anything associated with that it's just you can build a building but if you're going to put gas in there uh you can't um and I bet you that's illegal so another one would be to put into place a uh initial carbon
072price um ideal like we first considered that really heavily incentivizes uh electrification but doesn't prohibit gas and then we do the study and two years later we change the policy because either way whether it's a moratorium or something with a lot more texture um it would have to be replaced with uh probably with whatever the ultimate uh set of policies that we come up with uh would be the main thing here is to do something to start ratcheting down the natural gas because that is what's going to really you know cook this planet thank you I didn't mean to depress everyone all right well we can hear from others um I'd like to leave a little time in case folks like to kind of Step In when not much is happening um we can also
073move on with the agenda oh yes hello councilman Regina thanks I I just have a process question just to clarify moving forward um Joe with the process is the process for this similar to the way that we would operate at Council where you know we're treating this as a first reading but if we were to come back with changes we would essentially be affecting another first reading or um or do we have uh and and we're looking at at least two meetings out um if there are amendments or changes or or is that not the practice we've followed here that would be my understanding if I would go about it um if there's a different way that makes more sense to to you or with your more experience happy to do that but that that's
074my understanding I just wanted to make sure that folks knew that if there are suggestions and things like that that we can we can bring potential changes um discuss them here and and still folks will have a little bit of time to then sit with it before having to vote on a final approval so and we can also take it correct me if I'm wrong but choose to table for the time being um if because it seems like there's some discussion around you know taking this as is kind of you know in the general Spirit of the the fee kind of structuring going from there or you know tabling it and thinking of some of the other suggestions that are brought up and going down that route um as an alternative um is a is
075another option Russia I'd like to uh have us entertain emotion right make the motion that we table this discussion um and do much like what we did with the feasibility that the municipal utility feasibility study where we had a small subgroup um review some of the questions that came up um and ensure that those are active on and bring back to um this group questions or answers to some of the questions that have been postponed proposed as well as potential changes to the language of the resolution so I I I make that motion we have a second the table the resolution for now thank you commissioner overbeck all right so we can um now vote on tabling this all in favor of tabling this for now say I and raise your hand all right okay
076that looks unanimous to me and I'll also vote I so for now we will table this um thank you so much for all of your contributions um if you're someone who prefers to you know think about this or write about it um feel free to reach out by email and we can formulate um a working group that way and we'll also follow up um next month as we think about setting the agenda on thinking about how we can create that group yes Joe yeah and just to uh no I know there's a couple talk a few times about the list John sent it then I forward on I will attach that in the minutes just so that's clear and not hidden behind anything so everyone can see it all right next up on the agenda
077I would like to um open up the floor for news from our Council representative today at the meeting councilmember Regina do you have anything to share with us no I haven't heard from you in Africa um I uh I don't know that I have any major updates um I mentioned that we had um we've had a number of uh developments recently that that have been approved by Council that were all electric I will also note that the the South Town proposal that was um approved at our last meeting will also be Ann Arbor's first mass Timber building um and it is actually uh being designed to be carbon negative and so that is really exciting uh it is my hope that they will potentially be providing a an example for us to point to when
078we hear from others that this isn't possible um and so um I I am really excited and looking forward to it and also um grateful that it is a community-based team that has put this proposal together and will be executing it so um I just thought that was really exciting from the development front and um and is relevant to a lot of the work and conversations we have here fantastic yeah congratulations I'm passing the the herd ordinance that's really exciting to hear I know um so much work went into that so that's that's really great Travis Travis do you want someone to talk about the performance transparency resolution that Council passes yeah a year ago or so you guys you guys had all the updates for me um yeah so we did we did pass
079heard already I didn't mention that because it had come up um and then and council member Briggs um uh I think councilmember Ackman myself maybe the mayor and one other um sponsored uh a resolution to um essentially what we're hoping to get out of this is to provide more data and transparency towards some of the goals that we have set here in the city provide more public dashboards easily accessible on the website um of our of our uh progress towards the goals that we have set for the city and so um that is something that we have initiated and I know that it's something that um is near and dear to commissioner mursky's heart we've had several conversations about it um I suspect that uh once we that this will be a starting point um
080I I hope that um we'll get something up and available and will immediately hear from folks about additional data points that we can be providing information on and um will continually be progressing in that way but um it is our hope that we will have something um easily easily accessible to the public that is easily understood by the public as well about kind of where we are with with some of our work and um I know that I think the City of Greenville was one of our models when we were looking at it they have a number of dashboards on their site and so there are a number of municipalities out there that are doing this really well um and that we're we're hoping to follow in their footsteps fantastic Joe would you like to
081provide an update from the energy office yep uh yeah a few things were kind of already covered there by what's been happening um just but just a couple other things um that have been relevant to folks here but I'm just noting and if anyone also for the broader world of just to get more words out there um the we have two requests for proposals out right now um from OSI uh one regarding the administration of the home energy advisor program and the other on the um Community climate action rebates um both things we've talked about here um so trying to get uh word out there if anyone knows any um organizations things like that that would uh be able to fulfill that that RFP is out through events do in October um we're also getting
082to the point where we'll have some updates on some of those things that will come to the commission once those are once those are ready um and then in terms of General events and engagement next uh next Friday is uh this uh green Fair uh opportunity for folks to get out learn more about um things we're doing here at OSI but also throughout the community on all things um sustainability climate action everything like that um so that'll be uh downtown encourage folks to attend that's all I have for now that's the green fairs on the 22nd correct it's a multi-pronged things it's also a world car free day so there will be uh some stuff stuff going on for that during uh I think that um will be happening in the afternoon and then green
083Fair itself is happening in the evening they kind of overlap with each other well Hey Joe would you mind sending me those rfps um they're obviously public online right I can I can post them and I feel like straight into my my peeps okay so now we will take news reports yes Vice chair harp um I was just going to add um and mention that this week um there's a series of events going on um called house party um you can find out more at do goodwork.org house party um a number of those are looking at it's a week log Festival it's raising Awareness on the state of Housing and the context of Ann Arbor in the Ypsilanti area in the state of Michigan and the nation at large and there's a variety of events
084including um Saturday at the Liberty Research Annex at 305 West Liberty there's a um series of sort of myths and and um uh mosques around housing as well as uh uh panel looking Equitable housing and so I expected a lot some of the questions and and types of conversations and even perhaps Pathways to figuring out some answers to things might be the kinds of things that are being explored um during a lot of those events this week is that now near a blank slate it's right across the street like you don't know where the annex is that's what I was thinking we should all go yeah yeah Sunday afternoon the other events though are taking place at studio studio right next door to New York on Packard so not to confuse not that everything is
085happening down on Wesley yeah they're sorry never there are actually a couple I think one of the locations is that homes and a number are virtual as well um I know that there is one on um race and housing that is in its history in Ann Arbor that's happening kind of over the lunch hour on Thursday that is being led by council member gassy Edwin um and so there are a number of folks throughout the community involved in this and so absolutely go check it out it it's uh a great opportunity to weigh in and to to participate and I know that their hope is to kind of record all of these and make sure that they're archived in some way and shared for the public as well also an Adu tour I don't know
086if he knows about me but I'm obsessed with ads happening on Sunday okay any other Commissioners with news for us comments feedback okay how about a report from the environmental Commission yes three things happen at the last environmental commission first of all Brian stiglitz uh presented an overview of the new um or actually uh replacement if you will of the environmental manager position um those of you who have been around Ann Arbor for a long time will remember that Matt nodd had a similar position up until about 2018 um when he retired that position was not filled Brian stiglas presented the responsibilities and other aspects of the role to the environmental commission one of the reasons for that is that the person that is going to be hired for this position will be the staff
087liaison to the environmental commission I know that interviews were held for the position my understanding was there were to be two candidates one dropped out I don't know what the status is of an offer but um that's apparently moving forward the SEC second thing that we did is something that I think I failed to do or we failed to do and that is or maybe it's just something new in the bylaws and that is um the environmental commission did its annual review of its bylaws um Joe and Claire that's something you might want to check into our bylaws if that was something that was added um when some other things were added to the bylaws maybe a year or 18 months ago I don't recall that we've done a review since those last changes for
088example adding youth Commissioners and things like that so we did that and then the third thing um is that we had updates um from all the working groups and we also had agreement that we're going to consolidate some of the working groups natural features pollinators into a new biodiversity uh working group and um that is going to be kicked off here in the next month or so um so those are the three major activities that the environmental commission dealt with anybody has any questions they can look on registrar or contact me great so now we're going to move to our final opportunity for public input and this is an opportunity for people to speak for up to three minutes if you're watching on CTN please call 888-788-0099 or 877-853-5247 and enter the meeting ID 956-8718-7876
089this information is also displayed on the meeting agenda and the video feed City staff will select callers that have raised their hand one by one using the last three digits of your phone number to electronically raise your hand to indicate your desire to speak please press star 9 on your phone and you'll hear an automated announcement that the host is allowing you to speak when speaking move please move to applied area and mute any background sound so that we may hear you clearly and please set your name and address at the beginning of your comments Joe do we have anyone on the line yep um color ending in one three four thank you Mr Lang and chair McKenna Ken Garber again I'm very gratified as a commission took up this proposal um I'm pleased with
090the discussion there's a lot I can say about the specifics but it sounds like this is not going to be buried going to be seriously considered and there's not much more I can ask than that um I'd just like to Echo what commissioner overpacking commissioner mursky that about the urgency of addressing this problem whether it's with something like this fee or some other measure or some combination um yes uh commissioner Redeemer was correct we are seeing more all-electric projects I too was excited by the Southtown project I've learned quite a bit about it I think it could set an important precedent however I would caution everyone and point out that the projects commissioner radina mentioned South Town 721 South Forest North Maple Apartments these are all rezonings some of the mix very substantial rezonings plan
091unit developments and they record such a PUD I think they're all three were puds require a public benefit and developers have learned now that if they want to have a PUD approved one of the public benefits has to be full electrification now when it comes to buy right projects we are not seeing the same willingness to go all electric I follow development very closely and I'm not aware of a single buy right project that is voluntarily gone all electric um and to that point next Tuesday at Planning Commission uh the second phase of the Robertson Brothers Village project 120 Apartments gas heated will be up for consideration um this entire project will win complete will be 604 units yes 164 of those the for sale homes will be all electric but that was only because
092the public directly subsidized that through the Brownfield plan I don't think that's a sustainable model so my point is that uh oh in addition the Sartorius phase two uh is also coming several people on this call signed a letter to Sartorius asking them to consider going all electric they basically wrote back and said we're not even going to discuss it it's going to be gas um 30 seconds so my point is that this is a continuing uh almost monthly issue and that we need to act quickly um I'm certainly not wedded to my specifics um but I would just urge commission to uh to take action in some form soon thank you um no further callers right and now we'll move to taking ideas for future agenda items currently I have uh carbon fee resolution
093next steps work in group formation for possible modeling the consensus building around what and What needs to be included in that any other ideas yes commissionersky will be a broken record uh green rental housing program uh my understanding was that the basic agreement between City staff and Council was that the herd needed to be acted on before Green Road housing program I'd like to point out for everybody's understanding that the herd ordinance will not take effect until 180 days after its first meeting and enforcement will not take place until another 180 days after that so we need to understand that all of these activities are you know really stretching out in time and I presume that the same apply will apply to Green rental housing at least for the first 180 days and we should
094all remember that green rental housing was presented to the Commission in March of last year with a resolution of support and 18 months has passed and so we're now again losing at least those 18 months plus another 180 days before that ordinance would go into effect so I really like to get an update on green Royal housing program and the other thing that I'd like to also understand I raised in the last meeting uh as I said we're doing some great things in Bryant that's roughly 260 units we've got lots of neighborhoods lots of uh uh subdivisions um just on that side of town There's a whole slew of them Forest Brook um these are relatively low income areas there's a bunch of them on the north side of town so the question is what
095do we do with Bryant and how do we rapidly deploy that across all these other neighborhoods thank you so much question harp thanks um sorry it's just a point of clarification how would the um with respect to the Future agenda items so if you know if there's a working group around this the current drop resolution how does that play out in terms of how how that forms and and sort of future agenda items and and how that would come together the great question does anybody have some insight on that maybe yeah two seconds yeah so um we're gonna vote to create a working group or designate certain members to perform research or develop recommendations on specific topics without creating a committee um there's a couple tasks I would have to kind of go through in
096general um part of that is uh with the working group we would also have to um One have clearly defined tasks um and we would also so they'd be set with that we'd also find a staff member City staff that would be helping the work group um just to make sure that everything is one on task and has that that input there um so there'd just be a a couple of things there that's not a great answer I'm aware um so I can let me just make sure I got everything in place and um we can bring that back up yeah in general be the working group would be working on things they'd present every now and then um and then we'd be able to go forward with recommendations from that but basically basically would
097be it'd be an item for the future agenda that we vote on it and then and then proceed from there is that correct yeah the members of the committee can be appointed by the chair and approved by the commission so thank you for sure when would uh folks who would be interested in participating on this in this committee um be able to submit their their names um I don't know if there's like a designated time but you know uh commissioner mersky you have a I just had a real quick question um and that is uh we have two relatively new Commissioners but my recollection was we had four openings I'm wondering if uh either maybe the next meeting or tonight someone can say something about the filling of those additional openings great and also want
098to make sure we answer commissioner Coleman Garcia's question so when would folks be able to um State their interest in being in the working group um I feel like that would be after we agree that we can form a working group um that would make the most sense to me I think we can take that up in the next meeting um we'll put that on the agenda does that does that sound okay Mr Culver Garcia in terms of process okay okay commissioner Mercedes have your hand up for the Commissioners still working on Philly we'll give we'll get you an update soon hey it's saying no more gender items of course you can always email us um we meet to form the agenda about two weeks from now or two weeks ahead of the next meeting
099so there's a ton of time for you to cogitate and provide additional feedback um all right so we have concluded most of our agenda items and we'll move to adjournment so it is currently 7 33 pm and as chair I declare this meeting adjourned thank you so much