001I call to order the regular building board of appeals meeting for August 17 2023 Bill call Paul darling here Robert Hart David arnsdorf here you flat here Kevin Cox building official Glenn Dempsey here City plumbing inspector Ryan Miller here Fire Marshal Michael Redman here myself Deborah Williams we have a core the first item on the agenda is approval of the agenda we have a motion for that slow move I approve the agenda all right second all right we had no one for public commentary by the way all right thank you approval of minutes from the July 20th 2023 meeting I moved to approve the many minutes second motion and support those in favor aye classes appeals actions and show cause hearing you have one item on the agenda this month and I'm going to describe
002what the process is that how the appeal process works so first we'll get a report from staff about the process and then we'll have to come up and present their request for our variants and the board will ask discuss and ask the applicant any questions that we may have about the durians and then we'll have a motion by the board and quote and then um probably the next week or so after that you'll get a written approval from the from the board secretary about the results of that just have you ever hearing a written copy of that so um so the first item on the agenda is variance from DBA 2304 earns for 23.98 verdidian Circle Unit 10 Hanover Michigan and we'll get a staff report um I'm gonna go over the background and follow
003that staff report the building's at 2369 2383 2391 2397 Verdine Circle are part of the development multiple buildings of our two occupancy and 2380 Viridian Circle Community Center you can see attachment one for the list of addresses units and the building permits these units are in a mixed use A3 and B occupancy classification as described by the 2015 Michigan building code it is indicated on Signed Sealed plan submitted with the permit applications per the 2018 Michigan plumbing code 403.1 see attachment 3 each our two building must have one automatic closed washer connection for 20 dwelling units the applicant is requesting relief from the requirement that the one per 20 dwelling unit connection per building and proposing the closed washing equipment to be in the community center the petitioner is appealing based on the provisions of
004the code not being applicable of course there are the standards for approval true one of three standards the true intent of the code or the rules governing construction have been incorrectly interpreted the provisions of the code do not apply and or an equal or better form of constructionist promotes proposed so I'll continue on withstanding the staff recommendation staff recommends this application be denied as it does not meet the standards for approval the code has not been misinterpreted provisions of code do not apply and locating a washer Connection in another building on the property is not equivalent or better than the requirements the 2018 Michigan plumbing code the code is written to pertain to the building and the requirements are to be interpreted as such per section 101.2 a 2015 Michigan building code is not the
005intention of the code that per building requirements be met in another building on the property the applicant was informed that one Connection in each unit would satisfy the requirements and be equivalent to or better than what the quote requires it is staff's opinion having to move between buildings is not equivalent to having facilities in the building with your dwelling unit furthermore the distribution of dwelling units that have automatic clothes washer connections and those without seems arbitrary okay thank you next we can have the afternoon come up sign in and tell us about your fuel [Applause] hi everybody so um we have done several similar projects like this or other communities Dexter just finished up all similar scales or not all of our projects but several with similar scales we're trying to keep a residential scale
006not a big building with Central corridors and in general so there is no common space in the buildings for common laundry that would be readily accessible to any tenants so we have always the laundry in the community center for four projects over 20 some years and nobody has ever hinted that it was a problem so when we started this project we did the same thing um and that provision in the code from what I can find goes back as far as I could find an old code it's not like it's changed recently added um and so basically we have we have added connections washer Connections in the units um in order to get through the permit process because we needed a letter from Glenn to close on our financing so we can start the construction
007we are asking to be able to remove those washer connections and use the connections in the community center and Wendy will provide some examples of why we have concerns with the washer Connections in the unit we don't have common area to provide washers that aren't in the units which would be a little more acceptable from a management standpoint um if we did we would lose a bedroom in a unit and it would mean that a couple people would remain homeless instead which is really not what any of us are about I don't think um and the other thing is although I I can't argue that the city's interpretation of the code is wrong I think this particular provision is poorly written and needs a lot of elaboration not just that I wish it would clarify
008that they could be in another building but there is nothing requiring dryers so these tenants could have a washer connection but no way to dry the clothes um and it's generally just problematic in many ways for us we believe that what we are providing which was a central location where they could get all of their laundry done in a relatively short time um meets the needs of the tenants and has met the needs of hundreds of tenants for for many years over our other properties thanks yeah I'm Wendy cardi-saxon director of real estate development at Avalon housing we will own manage provide services at the Grove at Viridian and we're really excited to be able to bring these 50 units of affordable housing online 30 will be supportive housing for folks coming out of homelessness
00910 of those we're working with ozone for youth coming out of homelessness and we're playing like David said to close on our financing by the end of the month thank you for that and then start construction in September so we're just excited about that and thank you David for all of your work on this too so we understand obviously staff didn't recommend approval of our variance request and we're really hoping the building board of appeals will consider it we've been doing Supportive Housing for about 30 years and really do recognize the importance of tenants having access to laundry you know particularly Supportive Housing households that are coming out of homelessness a lot of folks don't have cars they can't get the laundromat so that's why like David said our new construction we've always been sure
010to you know include on-site laundry there and so it is noted we've got you know four on-site not just hookups in the community center but washers will be providing and five dryers that we'll be providing um so really recognize the importance of having that access for folks you know the staff report mentioned that the distribution seemed a bit seemed arbitrary of what units had it so it's really pretty specific our three and four bedroom units we provide hookups and we provide washing machines and we provide dryers in those units that we own we maintain we replace so just recognizing those bigger size households are just going to have that much more draw on all those units the one in two bedroom units though which don't have that same exact full draw those are the ones
011that throughout and here at Viridian we're looking at folks going to the community center so not having hookups you know just using the community center provided ones so say you know so in addition to learning over the years about the need for laundry we've also certainly learned problems that we've had when we've just provided hookups to the tenants you know the households where housing don't often have the funds to be able to provide a good working washing machine so that can really lead to leaks and breakages and then if we're not informed of the leaks that can cause problems more maintenance problems within the unit or if they're stacked units in the downstairs unit if water comes leaking below and just sort of a lot of you know calling our maintenance stuff hey can you
012fix these units well they're not ours so it really has led to problems in the past which is why we moved to this where you know we're here's your laundry we're providing it we're handling it three and four we're doing the units but we have limited resources and space so it's not that's why we're not doing it absolutely everywhere um so that's why both you know it's not just we prefer the common laundry we also have active concerns about just having hookups how well that would serve the tenants and US compared to having our common on-site laundry so really hoping you'll Grant the variance request you know we really do feel that it's an equal or better form than what just the code specifically would have um you know that our proposal they have four
013washers and five dryers so I think that's a one to six ratio with the units that don't have anything in them um you know provides more resources uh than I required by code and it allows Alva to provide affordably provide and maintain housing you know better is demonstrated with our at least through us with our history of doing it so just really appreciate your consideration of the variancement list the one thing I'd add the three and four bedrooms traditionally have been required by mishta who was our one of our primary funding agencies to have laundry facilities in them including not just connections but the actual laundry facility so that's why we started that the applicability of the Mr rules has changed over time we're not using that source so we actually have longer that that's
014a question so but we don't necessarily know that early on so we have not both varied from from starting with that assumption that they would have laundry so that it's not really arbitrary at all the locations seem arbitrary because most of those family units are away from Platte Road and close to the playground at the community center but there are some that are farther out just to distribute different types of units throughout the community um good question you've got I think 11 units highlighted in yellow which you say are part of this appeal when you're a chief there's a bunch of units off to the other side that are similar but our highlighted I was curious why we were left out I don't have the color version oh um so I was just wondering why
015these units were these are the family units the the four bedrooms these are all of them everything that's not highlighted is a three and four bedroom okay go ahead okay I was guessing looking at the footprint so it must be and there are townhouses okay typically except for a couple of flats all right board so you've already put in the connections which you'd like to remove them and the concern primarily being that uh potential equipment that might be installed by the tenant might not be of the standard where you feel comfortable that it might cause damage or concern that's certainly part of it um there'll be water Connections in the unit that will if someone decides to open them we'll just dump water on the floor as well the only place we had space for
016this was in a storage room there is not currently a floor drain in there we could choose to add that but I mean and also there's a significant expense to all this in 24 units and it's about 1500 a unit for the plumbing work and some of them need electrical as well and I'll just add right so we still need to start to build so it's in our plan certainly but if we didn't have to do it we'd be happy to be able to use those funds elsewhere since we already have the community center piece much of it thank you so it sounds like you're the kind of design complies with uh the Michigan Housing the three or four bedrooms even almost have the virgin before the one and two bedroom ones yes and actually
017Mr rules I think encourage a common laundry for the rest of them and you said that this has occurred already in Ann Arbor as well as other areas we have the same situation at carrot way which was done over 20 years ago at Pauline which was done um 2013. yeah 2013 um in which that I have found the code for and it was exactly the same language as it is now and we just finished one in Dexter under the current code which was not Ann Arbor but it was Washington County and nobody raised a question there not the engineers I've worked with not the any inspectors or playing with yours but they were also ones where you had the washer dryer in a separate building yes in the center where people would have to carry
018their stuff to and from any concerns the current have you heard of any concerns with those I haven't I'll say we do also have a Services team that helps out tenants with whatever they need to maintain their housing essentially so if there are laundry issues I'm sure they'd they'd be able to provide assistance you know as far as access foreign the townhouses that have laundry in them are mostly two-story townhouses all of the ones that would be getting the the hookups in the units under this or they haven't taken away under this are stacked Flats so a unit on the ground floor and a separate unit above we have found it works much better to have completely separate entrances and not force tenants to mix we have lots of opportunities for them to come together
019in social events but forcing them into interaction can be problematic so you do have conditions in that these buildings where they have one would be above above the other unit as far as leaking they're all carbon great it's probably an awesome an issue but and for completely other reasons than laundry it certainly has been an issue in other buildings I think the challenges and you know a lot of the three ways we can grant our variants is how do we that's the challenge that you know code doesn't apply which challenging for us to make that argument and it's equally your former better it's challenging for us to make and yeah and because it doesn't doesn't uh incorrectly interpret it it's difficult for us to think so that's the challenge there and also the fact that
020there's precedent and we've kind of we've used that precedent before with Honda I believe you know um I guess it's been approved in the past without our variants I guess it's been flagged as a variance requiring issue when they're done my son says it seems like the what approach we have now is to put them in the units but not give them any fixtures you know yeah if we can afford to give them fixtures we would love to it's just a we don't have money for it yeah yeah I mean you do the rough end without without having it and then yeah the rest because they would buy one or buy one or something and put it in there there's a staff have any further coming so the code calls for a connection doesn't necessarily
021mean that you have to have a washer dryer does ask for the connection um and that's just for the washer for the washer nothing to do with the potential dryer does that required in the code it does require the water connection so if the determination is either then or later they they have it there um I can't tell you what's happened in the past um can't tell you what's happened in other communities that that could be from not realizing or seeing the knowing the code we picked up on this here and it does we believe that it's for each building um you may have them in certain units in the building if there are units that are missing them then I believe that the code the interpretation would be there should be something for those
022other units too in well at least one Connection in the building I think I put one in the building and enforce them to go to the community center but so you want them to do anyways well yeah I mean the the options we were given by the city which are perfectly reasonable was one in a common space in each building or one in each unit there's no there's no comments base can I add two when we're looking at sort of equal or better I mean right now we've got actual units in our community space yeah that we're planning when we build we'll have them in there um I don't want to say if we do this we'll take those out and we'll save money and try to move money around you know what I mean
023to do these but if looking at kind of what's equal or better because under the code that would be allowed I would say it sort of feels better to have actual units high quality maintained or at least a consideration whether you think that might be better versus just having and having washers and dryers versus just having a laundry hookup with no equipment in people's units just sort of as you're thinking about it unless I don't say oh we're gonna then take it away because we'd have to have conversations and I don't know that we would but just comparing the two foreign the code requires a dryer if you have a washing machine plumbing code what they're appealing is the plumbing code yeah and um that the code is isn't cannot require them to put in
024the connection I think that's what you were originally appeared I have not found anything in the in the Mechanical Code saying that we need a dryer and the plumbing code certainly doesn't say that plan code doesn't say we need an electrical connection for the washer either but yeah yeah it just says washer connection so that seemed like a logical inference code yeah I think that's the intention is to have a connection for the device that there is the ability to hook up a device yeah in the in the individual building and that has all occupants able to use if they have their own connections and of course they don't have to use it but that's that's what staff has found for an interpretation certainly if we are aware of this from the start we could
025have site planned in common areas for laundry in each building but we haven't it would be a six month delay on the project and go back and do that now yeah what are the travel distance from all these units of a common building is at less than 250 feet you know what kind of car you can do in a walk all right from the farthest ones the furthest one in building a it's probably close to 250 feet and did you find that most people will walk through the facilities people will walk in them but they drive the car over there whether they do all usually get from one together you know where they they don't have cars I guess anymore yeah usually we find our one and two bedroom houses are less likely to have
026cars than our three and four bedroom for what it's worth so I presume the one person households I tend to be walking over there yeah if you don't include the connection during the initial construction and say somebody uh rents one of the units and would like to make a connection how difficult is it to add the connection after the fact I think we would probably I mean on a management way we would probably say we don't have a connection I'm sorry you're welcome to use these unless it was an accessibility you know if it was um thank you a reasonable accommodation and that would be very different obviously yeah it's difficult because the ground floor ones are on a slab the Upper Floor lines are above the fire rated floor structures so we're getting a
027drain to them water is fairly easy but the drain connection will be a challenge right if you're going to do it it'll be time to do it now when you're rolling you know yeah and you say you're putting the connections you're putting in you're just taking a bedroom basically no I mean we had storage rooms in each unit okay another Mr requirement and put the connections in there so there is space for a washer in there um and access to it yeah um it doesn't fill it up but it would be pretty difficult to get much storage in there along with the washer and access to the washer any questions from the board push back you want me to try go ahead okay uh in the case of bb-8 23004 the appeal of the building
028officials decision that we work at 2369 2383 2391 2397 and 2380 Veridian Circle be granted relief from table 403.1 of the 2018 Michigan plumbing code and building board of appeals reverses the building officials decisions for the reasons that the applicant has proposed an equal or better construction stipulations are that there is potential concern for certain future leaks and damage to the units if you install the connections no requirement to include washers or dryer equipment for those units so do due to precedent and Ann Arbor and the potential benefits to the residents of the units of these one and two bedroom units um um the motion is to Grant the variance is there any other discussion killing staff can we put in a clause if we if you do actually put a clause that says that
029this is a one-time this is meant to be one time and not not to establish president not to establish president so I think it's gonna happen so this is a friendly amendment to add some verbiage that this appeal is not to be used as a precedent okay so we have so if I include this is considered a one-time variance and not to be used as precedent for future projects is that acceptable yeah so we have three more members present today so we need to have to have positive votes for foreign granted language any other discussion on the motion we're ready for vote yes those in favor aye aye those opposed aye so it was like two positive votes second passes thank you very much [Applause] thank you I'll get together with them after and make
030sure she can read it okay thank you that was two to one right two to one correct okay thank you there are no other new actions on the from the agenda old business and your own business any update from the variants from last month is that still moving along on Broadway or something new business by the board members or staff no motion to return my motion to adjourn second neighbor all right thank you