001calling the meeting to order hi everyone good evening it's currently 602 p.m my name is Claire McKenna and I'm the chair of the Ann Arbor energy Commission um and I'm participating from Ann Arbor uh Welcome to the July uh meeting of the energy commission we're meeting electronically tonight but we'll conduct this meeting like in-person meetings Commissioners certain roll call please indicate your current location also during the meeting please remain on camera just as you would be visible during in-person meetings finally your microphone when not speaking uh so shall we go okay let me keep going yep public comment will be uh via telephone only to speak during any of the comment opportunities please call one of the following two toll-free numbers 877-853-5247-488 -788-0099 enter the meeting ID 956-8718-7876 on your phone this information will also
002be available on the published agenda in the Public Notices section of the city website and on the broadcast of this meeting on CTN Channel 16 ATT channel 99 and online at www.a2gov.org watch CTN Joe can you help us with the land acknowledgment you bet um I acknowledge that the land the city of Ann Arbor occupies is the ancestral traditional and contemporary lands of the ashinabe including Odawa Ojibwe and bodewadmi and Wyandotte peoples I further acknowledge that our city stands like almost all property in the United States on lands obtained generally in unconscionable ways from indigenous peoples The Taking of this land was formalized by the Treaty of Detroit in 1807 knowing where we live work study and recreate does not change the past but a thorough understanding of the ongoing consequences of this past can
003Empower us and our work to create a future that supports human flourishing Injustice for all individuals thank you Joe can you please take the Roll Call yep one person is just joining us let me get them in there um yep and then as noted if you can mention where you are at uh when you indicate whether you're here um her commissioner Berkowitz will be unable to make it um council member Briggs yes here in Ann Arbor uh commissioner Colvin Garcia president Amber commissioner harp I hear from Ann Arbor commissioner Levin uh yes I'm here for Ann Arbor uh chairman sorry yes no you're doing good we heard you that time doing good uh commissioner overpeck here in Ann Arbor council member radina indicated he will not be able to make it uh commissioner sendra uh
004here joining from Buenos Aires uh commissioner Smith I am not seeing at the moment um and then commissioner zittleman here in Ann Arbor all right chair you have a quorum I was missed in the oh my you're right my apologies commissioner Mercy he threw everything off yeah thank you now we're good and should we do some introductions just to get to know Richard sendra and introduce ourselves to them yeah do you want me to just I can just go through and call on people and yeah so for folks who don't know uh we have a new uh commissioner joining us commissioner Sandra um so we just want to go around I'll call on you based on where I see you on my screen um if you want to just give a quick you know quick
005little overview who you are uh what you do and why uh why you're here um we'll start with uh commissioner Levin uh hi Al welcome to the commission uh my name is Noah I've been on the commission for a good while now um originally from New Jersey and I originally came to Ann Arbor as a student at the school of Natural Resources I also have a law degree that I got from Lewis and Clark and uh I've done a bit of environmental work over the years um mostly involving uh air pollution um from uh stationary sources also a little bit of indoor air issues and uh currently live on the West Side uh with my wife having two kids who go to steam and uh welcome again uh chair McKenna hi commissioner Sandra my name
006is Claire um this is my first meeting as the chair I've been on the commission for about a year um I'm currently a PhD student at the school of environment and sustainability COV um and I'm going to be presenting on a work today so you'll hear much much more about my career and my work so I'll leave it at that uh commissioner harp hi welcome my name is Gabriel harp and I've been on the commission for I think about the same time as uh chairperson McKenna just about or maybe a little less than a year and um uh my background I have a background not only in design but also in strategic Communications and engagement around climate change I currently work with the Talman College of architecture and urban planning focusing on uh research and
007creative practice development so I work with our faculty but also on projects and and helping think about research programs um and engagement programs that think about sort of long-term strategy particularly around areas of climate change and adaptation so welcome uh commissioner Colvin Garcia hello commissioner Sandra well um the immediate past Vice chair oh well technically I'm the outgoing Vice chair um and some I'm also outgoing in other areas too as my personality but okay we'll set that aside um I am I've been I've been uh participating on the energy commission since uh 2017. and um my interests are in decarbonized transportation um I've been part actively participating in the community bringing solar power to the public schools that the first the first array uh was um done as part of a volunteer project with my
008kids attending school the school system here and uh I am really glad that you're joining us and it'll be really really interesting and hopefully um contributive and productive as we move together with your uh membership uh commissioner mersky welcome Jacob uh as one of the people who reviewed your application uh we're glad to have you you have an impressive uh application so it's great that you're joining us uh I'm the former chair of the energy commission like Carlene uh we both served three years so we were term limited so to speak I'm retired uh I worked um in industry for the German company Bosch my entire career I've been on the commission since 2016 and I'm active and generally in sustainability and housing related activities here in Ann Arbor now welcome aboard commissioner zittleman Sandra
009I'm Alex I have been on the energy commission about a graduated U of M the undergraduate degree in public policy focus on my interests generally lie around housing and transportation and transformation so feel free to talk to me just let you know you're cutting in a little bit here and there but we got we got overall what you were saying so just a heads up there um council member Briggs thanks yes welcome thanks for for volunteering to serve the community and on the commission um so I uh am the council member from The Fifth Ward was elected in 2020 um and um service liaison to the energy commission along with councilmember radina I'd also previously served on the energy commission back in maybe 2008 2009 as a citizen volunteer um and subsequently I'm a number
010of other commissions and the Planning Commission before election and my sort of my passion is what got me excited about running for city council are my background environmental transportation and land use policy so um those are sort of the areas that I I work on and try to Champion on on city council and um excited to have you joining us commissioner overbeck hi welcome I'm Jonathan overpeck and I go by the word go by pack believe it or not and I'm a climate scientist been a climate scientist since the night late 1970s and I'm an academic scientist currently at the University of Michigan in the school for environment and sustainability and I also have two kids now at the University of Michigan then uh commissioner Sandra over to you all right thank you so much
011uh it's an honor to meet you guys all tonight I'm very excited to get to work with you um as the lifelong resident of Ann Arbor and as a current student studying political science at the University of Michigan who's very involved in climate energy advocacy on campus um I really hope to bring a valuable perspective to this commission to assist in the really essential work supporting efforts to build just Equitable and sustainable energy future for everybody in this community I'm very excited to get to work thank you thanks and yeah we we've met previously but again I'm Joe I'm the staff liaison here I work for the city of uh Ann Arbor's off sustainability and Innovations and just kind of help staff and help get you all the resources that you need to keep doing
012all the great things everyone's doing so chair back to you fantastic thanks everyone uh is there a motion to approve the agenda as posted in a second commissioner Murphy first in Mission 11 second thank you um is the Commissioners please raise your hand if you want to propose changes or discuss an issue on the agenda posted now seeing No Hands raised uh all those in favor of approving the agenda as posted uh raise your hand and say aye aye opposed thank you and I see no um everyone's included there so thank you uh the agenda is approved all right and now I'll ask for a motion to approve the minutes as posted in a second of the memory breaks first and commissioner Colvin Garcia is a second thank you uh Commissioners please raise your hand
013if you want to propose changes or discussion an issue related to the minutes thanks and seeing No Hands raised all is in favor of approving the minutes as posted please raise your hand and say aye all right okay thank you and all those opposed please raise your hand and say no all right um I didn't see council member sorry uh commissioner zitelman weigh in um but maybe he's Frozen um but I say that uh the minutes are approved all right now we'll move to public input this is an opportunity for people to speak for up to three minutes uh if you're watching on CTN please call 888-788-0099-4877-853-5247 under the meeting ID 956-8718-7876 this information is also displayed on the meeting agenda and the video feed City staff will select callers and have raised their hand
014one by one using the last three digits of your phone number to electronically raise your hand and indicate your desire to speak please press star 9 on your phone you will hear an automated announcement that the host is allowing you to speak when speaking please move to a quiet area and mute any television or background sound so that we may hear you clearly and please set your name and address at the beginning of your comments don't currently have anyone in Cube I'm going to give it like 20 seconds or so just in case all right no callers at this time okay thanks Joe so we'll move forward to our first business item that's the election of the vice chair Joe do you have any input on how you'd like to proceed on that oh I
015think we can just go ahead and um you know if anyone wants to again either self-nominate or anyone wants to nominate someone else um they can go ahead and do so um the only thing I'll note is uh commissioner Smith had previously mentioned interest in uh the position but commissioner Smith is not currently with us at the moment so but outside of that uh feel free to discuss nominate self-nominate all those all those things I would like to nominate the uh Gabriel or gay carp do we need a second on that I'd like to second that commissioner golden Garcia second I second sorry and then commissioner herb do you want to just give a quick overview of your interest and why you'd be good fit for the position sure um thank you for the nomination
016um when I I wasn't able to attend the uh previous meeting um uh where nominations were initially occurring and and um initially I had not expressed interest but um I reached out to Joe and um said that I would be willing to serve in in the position um gotta help fill that role and help help the Commission carry out its business um also helping back up uh whoever the chair might might be at the time uh which wasn't known at the time so I'm really excited about this commission I'm really excited about the work that the commission is undertaking particularly as we sort of seek to parse through I think a lot of the different not only technical issues and trade-offs associated with um uh some of the programs and some of the policies but
017also how to um how to weigh in and parse through some of the policies and how they may impact particularly a wide range of residents in ways that are not only Equitable but but impactful as well and so um I'm just excited about this about the work and and helping move that forward so thank you for the nomination fantastic thank you do we have another nomination oh yes yes I would also like to nominate commissioner Smith um for the role as well do we have a second on that can I ask a clarifying question sure thank you um Chrysler uh is this like a clear uh like a CO Vice chair when you say a commissioner harp uh as well or do you mean to um you just like to nominate commissioner Smith as a
018to have her on the ballot so to speak the latter um I I it was my understanding that commissioner Smith was also interested in the role and I just wanted to make sure that the nomination went for it as well thank you all right are there any uh council member Briggs yeah I guess I just wanted to weigh in on that nomination which I think is very nice of you to have kind of brought her her name forward um you know I think if maybe she was here tonight I might feel more comfortable with you know having that sort of that dual nomination um I you know I think maybe they're if it might I'm not sure if it's entirely fair to her to to you know to have her not be able to sort
019of speak and speak tonight I don't know Jill if you've had any more conversations with her if she's definitely still interested in the position or um I yeah I've not heard since before the last meeting at least but to that point in time um the expressed interest commissioner Mercy thank you uh as far as I know um commissioner Smith didn't get a second uh in terms of the nomination so um unless somebody else seconds for then it's sort of a mute point um I just like to uh make a few comments about Gabe um shortly after he joined the commission he reached out and met with me for over an hour and we talked about the commission and roles on the commission the kind of work we're doing um his attendance has been really good
020he's also emailed me on a number of other occasions with comments and questions um I'm I'm I very much uh admire commissioner Smith um if somebody else wants to nominate her that that's fine but uh or second denomination I should say but right now um I think we have uh the nomination is second for commissioner Hart that's all thanks I want to just Elevate councilmember briggs's comments um you know just considering the the fairness of um not having um commissioner Smith represent themselves at this point um commissioner Levin do you want to share something I I just technically I don't think we need a second we just need them to accept the nomination but if she's not here then she obviously can't do that so I don't think we can go forward with her on
021the ballot but I don't know if she's planning to be late and we could postpone this or not that was the only other thing I was singing But if we don't know I guess we just have to move on I have not heard um from commissioner Smith a new hand yeah I would just like to point out we're electing officers to a one-year term it's not like this is a three-year appointment or something like that and um I think we should keep that in mind um I I'm a little bit reluctant to postpone this on the agenda I mean it's been on the agenda um I mean there's there could be extenuating circumstances but you know I'm tuition or Smith would have an opportunity to to serve in a role in the leadership role and
022sometime in the future if she was really interested she's only in the first year I think of her appointment so she still had an opportunity in the future I think that's a great does anyone else want to weigh in on this I'm I'm inclined to I guess move forward with our one candidate um does anybody I don't know this is an official question but does anybody oppose that to sort of a um not not a choice of candidate so much Gabe okay well based on our rigorous election um Mr harv we've we've chosen you as the um the vice chair so congratulations I think we need to vote we need to vote technically yeah all right everybody in favor of commissioner heart-taking device chair position please raise your hand and say aye fantastic two four
023six and I again I didn't see uh commissioner settlement okay and all those um who opposed please raise your hand and say no okay Commissioners Littleman thank you um yeah our majority shows a vote of yes for commissioner harp so thank you so much for voting and for your candidacy and um you're not the best chair cool all right uh shall we move on it looks like I'm next to present on the agenda um so I can do that now I'll share my screen and um share this information with you I think I just want to say before I start that um and we have been talking about um sharing my research for a little while and you know um this is just a chance to bring up some recent findings I actually submitted this
024uh work uh for publication today I um to hit send and um submit this afternoon so it's a pretty big day for me and um it's a kind of a celebration that we get to share this information all right so here we go I could see most of you so if there's any issue please let me know all right so exploring and Equitable transitions a clean Heating in cold climates um I do this work at the University of Michigan school for environment and sustainability is as mentioned earlier um the Seas program funds in my work partially and I'm also funded by the U.S department of energy and a really cool program called I build Innovation and buildings graduate research Fellowship um and I'm currently in going into my second year of funding with that with
025that Fellowship so um it's a great way to kind of elevate my work to the National level and have it um you know participate in the National conversation that I wouldn't pass how to invest in our society moving forward um before I begin I just want to share how I write at this work um I started right after college as a solar engineer um so electrical was my discipline at that point and I learned how to design solar PV systems on rooftops I've always been interested in buildings and and definitely focused on building integrated renewable energy then I moved into the tall building construction space as a building engineer and spent six years um working from you know pre-planning on large projects this is uh I believe it's a Salesforce Tower in San Francisco um
026when it was a hole in the ground you know now it's a thousand foot tower that absolutely um endorsed everything else on the skyline and I moved from that into doing this work which um you know growing up in New York City I never thought that I'd be interested in suburbs um and sort of single family housing in the way that I am now but I think there's so much to be said for the density of housing that we have and kind of um how it's aged through the decades and that's where I focus my work today so uh when we talk about transition to clean heating uh we have to first talk about uh a national looks and work that has been done recently by my PhD advisor parth vaishnav um this work was
027done when he was a faculty at the Carnegie Mellon University of course now he's at University of Michigan um but so we know from his work and from some others in the literature that switching to a heat pump is going to increase energy costs residential energy costs for many folks around the country um this this graph is showing us that uh that those costs are going to be worse in Michigan and um so you know that peaked my interest several years ago and that sort of got me on the path to setting this more in depth so as of that layer the fact that historically marginalized communities across our country already experience the highest energy burdens meaning that they pay the highest proportion of their income uh to energy costs and utility costs and so
028we know which folks uh you know which communities and kind of um categories of people around the country are experiencing those those really high energy burdens and and the health stress um and and um day-to-day stress that comes along with that those are low-income folks of course with the lowest incomes they're paying the highest percentage but at the same time you have communities of color older adults um with energy burdens above the national average um and you can also see that there's some kind of uh association with with housing vintage and so this kind of kicks off um the concept that we can go a little bit further and both understand the societal or the demographic components that that kind of expose folks to energy burden or high energy burden um but we also know
029that they're in the literature especially the work kind of done in the Detroit area um but specifically by Dr Tony Reems who's an amazing environmental justice um researcher currently at the department of energy um only from from Seas but um we know that there's a disparity in the quality of housing across this country um along uh income and race lines and that that that is a thing um that's really at the core of energy burden so when you look at um housing from the 20s 30s and 40s that hasn't been maintained um and of course maintenance is relative um you know but we think about Central AC versus window AC you know the kinds of holes that may open up in roofs and around chimneys um the kind of uh installation value of Windows and
030all that stuff that goes into exposing folks households to high energy as well so I am currently conducting um field research Empirical research that looks at the energy burden of 51 households in our area so I'm working with Wayne Uh across Wayne and Washington counties um most of my households are in Ypsi Ann Arbor and Detroit um and some kind of East and West Ann Arbor as well as Livonia and Chelsea um and this uh what I'm showing here is the energy burden on the y-axis and on the x-axis this is every single household so this kind of gives you an idea of where where the folks are when they started um before any any intervention or any consideration of Energy Efficiency or moving to a all electric heating system so it makes sense it's
031kind of a common sense um uh kind of a set of results here right the folks below mean income of course are going to have the highest energy burdens and then some kind of dispersion through the middle and the folks that make the most are going to be least exposed to high energy burden so my study um again includes 51 houses um and it's really cool because I got to go to each home and with a professional that was hired for the study conduct an energy audit at every home so this is the kind of highest level of energy auditing service that you can get um you know it's kind of publicly available there's a whole blower door test done with tests for air leakage in the home um it also includes physical inspection and
032um some thermal imaging like kind of what you're seeing here below um in addition so there was a detailed walkthrough of every single home and in the course notes taken and values noted on all of those elements that that kind of Drive energies in the home um I also studied the metered utility data for each home and installed a smart thermostat in every home so I actually have information about how folks are using their homes heating and cooling systems So based on all the data that I gathered through the home energy Audits and finding that the energy use intensity uh per occupants so this is the energy use of the entire home per year over the area and then over the occupant so it's kind of normalized for square footage of the home so basically
033we're not we're comparing Apples to Apples at home that's a thousand square foot to a homeless 4 000 and at the same time you know accounting for how many folks are are living at home and so what I want to point out here is that the the orange curve um this is hilariously uh close to Maze and blue but um I didn't mean for it um so the orange curve here um across my ankle bracket so on the on the um on the x-axis I have four different buckets where I've sorted um income self-report income from across the households um and uh the boxing whisker plot basically shows the um the maximum minimum and the median is in um the line here and so the median uh across these is decreasing from lowest income group
034to the highest earners across the sample and interestingly I'm not going to go into too much detail but I also found that uh about 25 or 13 homes in the sample were um retrofit by Habitat for Humanity before the study began and so we actually got to see the difference between low-income homes you know uh that were retrofit and those that were in that were kind of market rate and so of course the the current applies here for the market rate homes and I wanted to show that there's a I'm breaking out the in these income groups um the below 25 000 in between 25 and 50 000 groups are considered below immediate income for their County while the 50 to 75 000 earners are at the media income for whatever County they're in and
035of course above is is above me so here are the the really the main findings of what I studied um so I'll give you a second to absorb this and also kind of talk over it uh while I kind of um describe what the what the goal of the study is so with the basis of energy burden trying to um kind of put a finger on what the income or um you know burden impact would be to move to a heat pump or individual households and so we have some kind of preliminary data from National studies that show you know I think that the thing that concerned me that drove me to this work is that I'm seeing um some Publications and some not propaganda but maybe messaging from the Department of energy in the
036federal government that says um hey or and definitely from companies hey move to a heat pump and it's it's not going to cost anybody anymore for energy and that's not the case uh actually when you think about folks that are um you know reliant on natural gas like most of us in southern part of Michigan are um there's actually going to be quite a significant cost increase for folks and so what I did was take another step and say okay well compared to their income kind of where does that put them and so I'm showing four different cases here but if we can just focus on the first one here um this is kind of where the main finding lies so this is a change in energy burden on the y-axis um going from where
037they were so that's that first graph that I showed you know some folks were starting at 30 or 40 and then the the highest earners were down at you know two percent or three percent so they're spending two percent or three percent of their income on um energy utilities this accounts for about a six percent change in energy burden so if if folks maybe someone in this category that makes less than twenty five thousand dollars today started at an energy burden of let's say five six seven percent they're going to be adding six percent um so that's that's you know guess who in egregious or um severe I don't know if the scale goes to egregious but um but you know I'll just comment and say that that I think that at that level um
038you know it's untenable we can't ask folks um um who already struggled with their bills who who already see the repercussions of being on the lower end of the income Spectrum in our society um relatives who shut offs and risk of shut off and and the kind of the stress of of um you know extreme heat and cold in their homes um when they when they suffer from energy and security as someone who has a high energy burden does um just kind of highlighting that um there is a really steep drop off when we think about folks uh impact for going to a heat pump I throw on natural gas today and then finally I'll share that um while you know the the effect is egregious down in the lower end of the income Spectrum
039in fact on the higher end we're seeing uh also a 50 increase and so folks that had one or two percent um energy burden starting off are going to see you know about a one percentage Point increase um as well and so it's basically showing that um you know everybody across income spectrum is going to be affected and maybe some folks on the higher end median income and above um you know might be destabilized financially if they do have to move to a heat pump without any Energy Efficiency or any kind of um utility cost mitigation strategies um that I recommend my paper does include a lot more of those and I'll share a little bit more about that before I wrap up here um so having an energy audit contractor come to eat home
040actually that person recommended uh the energy retrofit measures that would be appropriate for each of the homes and here's a frequency count of what all of those are across the board on the left kind of on the yellow and uh green and blue we're looking at um building envelope upgrades so this is you know working with insulation this is getting new windows and then on the right hand side here we have some appliances and some other equipment upgrades so when I say there's no clear pattern for energy cost savings uh you know while there were some common upgrades that were recommended across the sample um you can look at the breakdown for what the utility cost savings for the each individual homeless that's that's being shown here um on an annual basis and see that
041they're you know there's not something that we could come away and say oh okay well you know for most of these homes this is the case or if I took this neighborhood or if I took all 48197 or 4014 you know this is something that we can do and I'd love that for me for that to be the case um I think that you know this kind of meshes a little bit with with what the city of Ann Arbor is currently working on with um you know energy um I don't know what what you guys are you can correct me Joe when I'm done here but I don't know I've heard it called Energy case manager or just an energy Advocate someone that can that can help folks understand specifically what they need for their
042homes um but it's just interesting that there isn't a clear pattern even though there's a lot lot of similarities across the housing stock in this area I wanted to point out that you know the thing that that shows me that the most is that there's air healing that was recommended for every single household like that is a thing that if I were to say anybody in this area were to ask me you know what should I do to save on my utility bills I'd say definitely air ceiling but you know it's going to save some people five eight times what it would save others and so how do we know who those are um you know without without doing the work of getting an energy assessor in there and so um that kind of just
043shows me the the importance of having that on the ground interacting with folks and really going into homes and making sure we know um you know what the situation is okay and I'll just wrap up uh by sharing that my next step in the research is is qualitative exploration of attitudes towards going to a heat pump um you know I think in this area especially in Ann Arbor um there's there's some incentives coming and some some support uh from the city to to get folks um to move to heat pumps and um so I started to do some interviews across the sample um and it's just brought up a lot of interesting Insight around how people you know use their thermostats to control their energy costs and um you know whether or not they think
044they can afford um at your costs um and and also just the idea of comparing themselves to others and and how folks get their information about about what might be best done for their home um both to improve their their comfort on their family's comfort and improve their their energy bills so I'll wrap up with that and I can pick some questions if you'd like mission 11. uh yeah thanks um a couple questions um one quickly can you just like explain specifically what you're referring to and you say air ceiling is that so that's not insulation right that's like specific spots where there's like big gaps or something yeah so there doesn't necessarily need to be specific spots where there are big gas but that I think a gap is a good way to think
045about it um one of the main areas that folks need air ceiling is around their Rim joists which is where basically the structure the wooden structure of the house meets our Michigan basement um and so that is typically um you know the joists kind of go and meet that external wall surface and there's nothing there really except for wood um and so that's that's a place where a lot of outside air is coming in in fact yeah it's the kind of primary place to work with you okay but but that is sort of like a type of insulation you tend to like spray an insulation in the rim joist right is is that what you're talking about right right right it's definitely um but it is in um because it's more about stopping the flow
046of air um you know attributing the heat loss there's a flow of air as opposed to um a conductive flow through a surface okay yeah that makes sense and then one other question about the you said there wasn't like a real clear pattern based on your sample I'm just wondering do you think maybe there'd be more of a pattern if you looked at like for example the majority of the houses in my neighborhood are one type of ranch style like do you think there could be more commonalities in terms of like very similar house structures yeah I love that I mean that's totally yeah it's really a good Insight from from yeah um from looking out to your window and um I think that totally is the case it's a matter of um yeah maybe
047um being thoughtful about what those levels of scale are when we think about intervention and I'm using the resources that we have let's say as a government um or you know whether those are Financial incentives or organization organizational resources um to get folks what they need um you know I think somebody needs to be thinking about that exact question like what what are the scales of similarity um and and how do we kind of work with them to maximize the amount of benefit that we can provide with of course limited resources that we have cool thanks commissioner Coleman Garcia my my question has to do with with the envelope and you had a simple and you had a complex would you mind describing what those are yeah sure so simple and complex I kind of
048Drew the line at how many contractors it would take to get the work done um it's a little bit crude but um you know thinking about are you gonna ask somebody to spend a thousand dollars are you gonna ask them to spend six thousand dollars to get um you know to open up their walls get additional insulation in there and then cover them back up so that would be like a that would be like an example of a complex so it's a drywall contractor and an installation contractor or if it's something that's maybe added cellulose insulation into the roof um you just need someone to come out and um with a truck and and blow it up there so that's kind of where I just want my other question is uh it kind of piggybacks
049a little bit on what commissioner Levin was asking as far as air ceiling is concerned um is there any consideration in your study with regards to the cost or offsetting or you know to be adding um ventilation to the house once it's sealed that is a great question um so yeah that's a that's a very very good question so no um typically So currently um there's an air ceiling level required by code um and I don't think that any additional outside ventilation is required at that level so like a a new house built today doesn't have any additional you know uh outside air intake than what a normal HVAC system and so from my experience um spray foam even though the best job that I've seen possible uh in a retrofit in homes like ranch
050home in our area um doesn't get down below the level of today's code and so it's essentially what I'm saying is that from my experience working with contractors um no additional ventilation is necessary all right thank you and if anyone disagrees with that please wait uh commissioner Hart thinks it's really great to see um how you're approaching us and and to see some of the results um that you're putting together um I had a few questions about sort of how you're how you're approaching um some of this work and one the first I had to see about that and then I also had a question about um the first study that you mentioned um that looked at the heat pumps um so the first the first one was just about sort of overall sort of
051impacts on how how are you approaching the relationship between what people do in their homes versus the sort of installed um weatherization or Technologies in their homes and so for example I know you included like the different time of day rates in in the different uh graphs analyzes part of the Assumption I think around those time of day rates is that there is some shift in practices in terms of energy use and timing and the cost and the cost structure as such um you know it's like 11 cents for the versus you know half a cent or something um I think the 1.2 rate um and so how do you how do you sort of approach that angle of things when when you hear about things such as you know turning turning you know there's
052also lots of misrepresentations or misunderstandings about like how HVAC systems work and and things like that that exist in the world and so I think I recently just read an article about how it's not very good to sort of turn your thermostat down very much much lower to 55 degrees during the summer because your your AC is not necessarily going to cool your house anymore than than it's set up uh for capacity versus things like um pre-cooling versus using Shades and things like that and so I was just wondering sort of how you're thinking about those kinds of things um that's sort of a first question in this and then a second question that is sort of the relationship between costs of materials and installation versus savings um so you know so where you're you
053know what's how are you sort of approaching what the investment might be relative to the return versus the sort of type of type of um change as well we're gonna build science it's just in the room here for those really really insightful and detailed questions um I will start off by saying um yeah great Insight on time abuse shifting behavior um that that's kind of like a bit of future work and if you want to collaborate on that let's do it um because you know it's it it's a little bit more difficult to model or anticipate future Behavior one way to do that is to compare you know the the pre-intervention with the post right so if we had some data from before the shift which I actually do and we took some more data
054after the shift which I actually could then you know we would be able to quantify that and that would be pretty cool so okay thank you for that idea um but I'll also say that I spent a pretty significant piece of the paper um making sure that I uh justify or provide evidence for the fact that the um more substantial energy use uh in in households below median income is actually due to the envelope and the building itself rather than thermostat behavior and so because I have Smart thermostat data um I show in the paper I didn't show it here um that there's no there's no pattern similar to what we were finding for for energy intensity which is like a clear flow but statistically significant um there's no statistically significant um pattern or Trend
055at all for for thermostat temperature so we can't say you know folks oh they you know they use uh there are more people there or they use more temper you know they they call for more Heating and Cooling it's just not the case so there's a lot more work to do there um but um yeah just providing evidence for the the kind of building driven um as opposed to behavior driven energy use is is the main component of the paper um and finally cost of materials um versus the payback so obviously a major point of contention and discussions both in the literature in economics and kind of the Practical nature of how we move forward with efficiency um I'll say the median uh kind of payback simple payback you know no discount rates or anything
056uh for the efficiency retrofits that were recommended across the sample was 24 years uh so that's that's you know that's not um something that I think well I know because I've asked them in interviews that's not that's not a level at which people are like yeah definitely I'm gonna do that tomorrow you know that that's uh that's just not that's not aligned with um household investment today and so one of the one of the things I argue for in the paper um is that we you know provide more detailed information about what specific metrics can be done not just the package right like if you come over here an energy assessor and you come to my house and tell me I need um spray foam insulation I need adding blown and cellulose and and I
057need this and I need that that's that's stop listening like I don't have you know ten twenty thousand dollars to make those upgrades and that's kind of where the price tags were I think it was a median of eleven thousand dollars um and so kind of advocating for showing a marginal trade-off um between you know each additional piece of cost and and then those um that money back so yeah that's what I'll share and there's a lot more detail in the paper so I can um share that with you okay for sure Mercy thanks for sharing your research with us uh I think uh I'm gonna be really interested to see what your final findings are uh but I've got a couple of topics that I'd like to explore more deeply with you like you
058I'm concerned with the narratives that I hear from many corners of the let's call it energy transition community that says simply replace your furnace or for that matter your air conditioner over the heat pump and all of our problems will be solved and I know you have connections with RMI and and I don't know if you have connections with rewiring America I've read Saul Griffith's book and I've looked at their information and they're they're one of the entities that seems to have that narrative um I've also looked at a paper that was recently published by RMI looking at new construction which I recognize is is different but uh they claim that in studying nine metropolitan areas around the United States that if you look at mixed fuel versus all electric construction that the construction costs
059the single family homes are lower or the same as mixed use and the utility bills are lower than or in a few cases very close to what they are for all electric um I have a hard time believing this narrative and some of these information I'm wondering if you've context to people at these organizations or your old contacts and what their senses of this and I'll share one other uh finding and that is I worked with four other people to re-examine the Village of Ann Arbor and their development on the north side of town and they presented information to the Planning Commission indicating that um this is again new construction on apartments that going to all electric would increase energy utility bills by roughly I think it was pretty close to 100 a month and
060we did redid the calculations hoping that they were wrong and we found some assumptions that were wrong we used multiple different um energy models and yet uh we found also that the utility costs were going to go up roughly 30 a month so less than what they claim 30 to 40 but uh still they were going to go up so I'm wondering you've done all this research you've raised this concern what are other people saying in response to that yeah yeah I was here right now mine is more of a response to them out of my work hasn't seen that widely and so um I can say that I I I'm pursuing a PhD because I don't I don't believe in um the level of rigor that uh that is being used to make those
061calculations that you mentioned both of those um those groups you know I worked at RMI so I know what what happens behind the curtain um you know respectfully to all my colleagues there um I I just I feel that there's a different narrative that isn't as popular I mean it makes sense in a sense both are true I think it's just a matter of what uh facts and what scenarios are being elevated um and so while I don't disagree um you know like pure error aside right I think some of the work that you've done recently um does point to some maybe like calculation error or assumption error like maybe uh what I'm hearing is that maybe it's around like Energy Efficiency of certain equipment um or the building yeah that we need to we
062need to correct that but I think the other folks are looking at um more specifically the winning cases and and thinking about the positioning of the winning cases and the publication publicization of the winning cases as something that's going to move the whole movement forward um I find that to be fine but not enough um in the sense that um you know my concern is for justice and equity and thinking about a transition that rolls out um yes every transition this country does or has um maybe like immediately after full like electrification of the country to begin with like adding electricity into rural areas and that kind of thing spreading electricity across the country um everything subsequently has been right like not representative um our government isn't representative and so doesn't represent people and interests
063of communities of color and of lower income folks and so when we think about um incentives and investment I think that this work is important to elevate the cases that are not going to be the economic wins because those are the folks that will not experience economic wins are those that are immortalized engage a little bit further if anybody else has something I'll I'll yield the floor but um I agree with you entirely that this Equity issue is really something that needs to be delved into I think there's a broader issue of distrust and if we go around to any Community even high income communities and promise uh benefits that just aren't born out I I think that really undermines you know the the kind of long-term changes that we'd like to see and I'm
064really concerned um one one thing I was wondering I've heard both from the state of Michigan I think it came from Michigan saves but also I've seen National figures that say you invest one dollar in Energy Efficiency and you get four dollars in uh utility cost savings have you heard Amber before and do you believe that number no you haven't heard the number or you don't believe the number of both I want to hear numbers like that I think you guys stop listening um but I will say I will say one one thing kind of to your later points here John is that uh let's say you have the resources to go around and tell people like you mentioned even if they're wealthier um that there's a technology coming and there are benefits available um
065I think that we need more education I think that there's a really low literacy of how our homes work um what it means to invest in them in specific ways that may improve unseen qualities like you know it's not a kitchen renovation right but it is something that uh you know maybe not just like change like um kind of supports a broader societal change like electrification but it is something that could improve your interior air quality or actually improve the dispersion of heating and cooling across your house and make it more comfortable there's not a lot of literacy and someone mentioned earlier like well don't people interact with their feeding and cooling systems in ways that aren't like correct and in a sense yes right I mean but that just goes to the fact that
066we don't get a user manual you know we're sold houses on the real estate market it happens so quick then you end up with something like it's beautiful on the outside well like does it work like you have a Whole House Fan from 1960 like here are the reasons why that's that's not like you know that's not the most efficient way to do it now maybe it was a trend back then but you know so there were just so many so so so so so so many things to know um and there aren't really any programs that share that with people I think in a way that's like exciting or engaging or or helpful and kind of communicating what the benefits are to knowing that information and that is what's needed to make a transition
067happen um not just the availability of Technology not just the proof that it's going to save money but um you know making people aware like kind of like what you hear about electric charging like hey electric charging like range anxieties is that bad there's a little bit more of that information coming out but I think that we're still living in the past as it relates to housing and and Building Technology I got a couple of other things I'd like to explore if I may go ahead no um so I'm wondering if you're capturing um when people are converting to heat pumps if you're looking at the efficiency of the unit and whether it's been you know if this in other words The Seer two Factor um and um whether or not the units have been
068appropriately sized and selected I mean you know a lot of units in the past were um in fact we heard stories from the Ann Arbor Housing Commission and from Robertson Brothers where very inefficient units that might have been suitable for the South were in store here in the north and so you have electric resistance heating kicking in in order to make up um the difference in the wintertime and that of course really jacks up the utility costs and you know what what might have been installed as a cr13 unit years ago and that's now the floor from the doe and there's units that are 21 approaching 22 Seer that are on the market of course they're more expensive but I'm wondering if you're capturing that kind of information and looking at whether or not some
069of the results that you're seeing are simply due to bad equipment decisions well it wouldn't make any equipment decisions whatever John um I I think we should end the discussion here just for the sake of moving on and not um you know there's so much to share but you and I should catch up I can go through the model with you in detail um and I can show you all the methods and assumptions and I think that might be valuable for us but let's spare people the details of the The Seer rating of the people but I'll say it's not 13. um okay anybody else comments thank you so much for your patience and I'm frankly interested in this um of course I'm getting my PhD in it so I'm interested in it yes Mr
070heart hey I just had one one quick question sort of is is broadly about the the first example he showed the bike shop um the analysis relating to the heat pumps it's about sort of the general class of those types of analyzes and and what I was wondering is how sensitive that analysis in particular but also in general those are to some of the assumptions that they might have made whether it was in terms of the economics or the technology and and sort of part of that is also to ask because I think those kinds of analysis are incredibly useful to groups like this Commission in terms of being able to sort of deliberate and assess and sort of you know draw distinctions between the kinds of assumptions that are made in the details and
071I'm really interested in I think you know one just the sort of availability of those kinds of analyzes um but also how how if you have you know if you have any insights either based on that one or or others of how they can also be how how we can use those results in ways that are sort of consistent with a sort of very rapidly Dynamic changing environment both in the policy landscape and an economic landscape and the ways in which people are adjusting their own their own situations or if you have any any sense of that so there's the sort of sensitivity of the that one to itself but also how are there ways that we might be able to better sort of use that type of information yeah so there's a little bit
072more information available now well let me start by saying that that Dr advice um analysis from 2020 uh is kind of directional uh and it you know created that map and spurred on a lot of um you know interesting research including mine um from there and the reason that I do the research that I do is because I'm responding to that saying hey but like it doesn't account for the specific energy costs uh structures that we have and it's kind of cool to see that well sad but interesting that DTE has changed their rate structure in the time that I've that I've studied this saying that like if you look at the um you know there's an uh National body that kind of um right that takes in the energy cost data from across the
073country and can say the average for every year for every state and so an analysis like like Dr vikrams uses that information right so they're looking at the um the gas and electricity cost assumptions based on kind of a per kilowatt hour or a per unit of energy basis and not accounting for those finite hourly changes um which mine does and so what I am saying is that we need to move to more Regional uh uh research that can actually get to the point of detail we're actually quantifying how much for an individual household or for a region um based on detailed um information like that like what's that difference because to know what the impact is as uh uh right or a regulatory body or an agency that has a regional jurisdiction um we
074need to be sensitive to those factors um so those are the two things I wanted to share there just that like you know that information is really helpful um but I think that that we need to see more Regional information more Regional research pop up and then lastly I'll just share that since that paper was published um and raila has come out with a database or that has 10 different um scenarios for uh the U.S housing stock basically like as it is today um all the way through uh electrification with and without energy retrofits um you know a billion stock is as it is today with and without energy replicas and then all the kind of in between um so there's more advancement on a national level um and some really sophisticated modeling around around
075those costs oh sorry around those energy use but I think that we do need to also model it with our local that's great I think yeah thank you okay thank you again everyone for your your patience and engagement there um so let's move on we uh next on the agenda we want to hear an energy report news from the energy office and any commissioners yep um I can start with the OSI updates um don't have a ton again uh if everyone I guess I need to get uh commissioner Sandra in there if you aren't already uh we have our newsletter that went out um talk about some of the topics here today um and uh I know it's confusing because the name has changed it's the home energy advisor service will be the name of
076the the service that's kind of doing that um assistance formerly as many know the energy concierge name change there um so no worries for being confused on it um but they're they're currently in the uh they're wrapping up their pilot phase uh this month it has 15 residents across a couple different you know building types living situations things like that um so once that's wrapped up we'll have a report we can talk about it here and then uh with plans of that launching later in the fall um there's also again related to some of this there's some stuff on um different types of resources be it on electrification everything surrounding electrification as well as different um uh ways to help finance that as well um outside of that I just wanted to highlight uh we
077we will have one meeting for us but we'll also be having um in August August 11th uh we'll be having our second home electrification Expo uh which will be an opportunity for people to be out and talk about different resources or different talk with like contractors installers things like that uh manufacturers Just to kind of look at some of the stuff that's out there see what makes sense um and kind of just get that hands-on experience there um those are some of the main things there's two little-ish maybe not little is not the right word but um resources that'll be coming out soon um related to the changing of the rates with DTE um we're just finishing up a um kind of like a fact sheet on what those time of day rate changes means
078particularly for solar customers um because you know not only are you know there's the time of uh time of day but also when you get into solar there's even more things that are a part of it so just kind of having like a fact sheet there um just to get a sense of like what actually all those things mean and what they make sense for people um in that situation uh as well as a resource kit for um Homeowner Association and multi-unit developments on like how they can work towards different things like uh be It Solar EV charging uh different things like that um just kind of help help the process there and some of those kind of trickier situations will have both resources as well as case studies um and different things like that
079so the those are the main things I have again the newsletter goes into more detail as well as a couple other things that have been out there but great it's um it's great to hear that there's a that the home energy advisor pilot is um what did you say wrapping up and I'm really excited to hear so I'd love to we can talk about this but um get it on the agenda for the coming year um Joe I'd also be interested in taking a look at the advisor The Advisory fee for the new rate because I modeled the the rate I have some insight on that um if you find it helpful like particularly folks that have um old inefficient AC like they're going to see the highest impacts and things like that so I
080don't know if you have that on there but if you're looking for for another pair of eyes I'd be happy to help yeah be happy with something I can just this is uh here I can share a screen real quick just to get a sense of what it looks like again this is not final so don't take this as like this is the final thing um but roughly here's of course Zoom controls cover it all up on my end but um just again getting a quick sense of like you know here's kind of you know what the you know what the rates are how it kind of looks for you again kind of breaking down like what does on Peak mid peak because that's a thing off peak um all those kind of things comparing
081like some of the different um you know again the different rates just kind of breaking down like you know what what they mean um kind of you know again showing like when you know solar outflow inflow things like that to kind of start comparing when you know when the different rates make the most sense for you thinking about your different considerations recommendations um and then you know kind of breaking down a bill um recognizing this is probably hard to see and can't see everything but I I can share it with you and you can kind of look over um from from that perspective but this is kind of kind of what it's going to look like again just kind of help out be like because you know energy bills are not the easiest things uh
082to read which gets even more complicated when you have different Peak and off peak and solar rates and all that kind of thing so just kind of demystify help break it down and give people a better a better sense so again this is not the finalized version I was it it's okay to look at here and things like that obviously but um making a couple more tweaks and I I'll share that with you in case there's any any things you've seen as well that are uh that can help that out so fantastic thank you all right um to commissioner Mercy yes I had a quick question for Joe um the press release uh where the city got five million dollars from the state for the landfill solar project indicated that there's still additional funding uh
083resources that are needed to make that project viable um do you have any sense of whether that's you know a million dollars or another five million dollars or what what what what what what what is it going to take to get over the hump on that project and maybe there's other issues besides um raising money above the five million can you give us a sense of that um yeah I don't know off the top of my head how much it is financially but that is the the biggest concern or biggest thing to do um I don't um I also don't know if something like how much we asked for that wasn't like the full amount that we that we had put in for so there is there is more than that I just don't know
084the scale of it um but it's it um it is and so for those who you know John has mentioned but yeah five million has been approved uh from the state to kind of be to move the landfill solar project it doesn't get us like 100 of the way to where it is but it's at least enough where we can begin moving forward with some of those final things um you know think all the different environmental reviews permitting kind of things like that we can start moving forward um as we work to kind of fill that uh those last buckets so I don't have again I don't have off the top of my head how much that's needed um but yeah it's it we're able to be moving forward um as as we work to
085fill that instead of being at an entire standstill great uh let's see are we can move next to the report from the environmental Commission uh the last environmental commission had a work session so there's really nothing to report and we'll move to our second opportunity for public comment um once again the instructions for that are as follows foreign all right if you're watching on CTN please call 888-788-0099 or 877-853-5247 enter the meeting ID 956-8718-7876 this information is also displayed on the meeting agenda and the video feed City staff will select callers that have raised their hand one by one using the last three digits of your phone number to electronically raise your hand to indicate your desire to speak please press star nine on your phone you will hear an automated announcement that is the
086host allowing you to speak when speaking please move to a quiet area and mute any television or background sound so that we may hear you clearly and please set your name and address at the beginning of your comments thank you don't have anyone right now so give about 15 seconds just in case all right known at this time again if anyone's watching and was having any difficulties feel free to send in a comment to energy commission at a2gov.org and we'll move on to our last agenda item which is to discuss uh new agenda items moving forward I'm really curious to hear if anybody has anything on their mind um about what we might look at it for the next year and just as a refresher for all slash um Mr sender in case this was
087never I don't think I brought this up to you at this point you just kind of bring forth anything that's you know something that is uh of interest that you'd like to discuss or something like this I know it says items for next agenda but if you're something that you know it's like oh we can't get to that next agenda but it's something we definitely want on our radar feel free to put it in it at this time as well so anything that anyone is thinking of that might be interesting doesn't have to you know be any I don't know what I'm saying anything energy related throw something out there if it's of interest to you so Mr Murphy uh you won't be surprised by my three topics um greenhouse gas inventory um and if
088I make editorialize for 15 seconds uh it's going to be August um I think last year it was August I think the city wrote to DTE or wrote to the mpsc about not getting data from DTE uh you know any company knows basic data like its utility usage um within a month of their you know year-end clothes I mean that's just that's just I mean I I can't say DTE is a is a world-class company but most companies can certainly do that and it's ridiculous that we're still waiting for DTE so I would encourage staff to get with the administrator and with counsel to elevate this because you know any any you know we we look at the inventory because it gives us a sense um of whether we're on track to meet our targets
089and we shouldn't be getting key information you know seven and a half months into the into the year so uh second topic is um heard and when we're going to um be able to get an update on Hurd and when that's going to be going to council and the same thing with green rental housing program which I understand is going to follow her um but that was you know presented in March of last year so these are topics that are extremely important to me because they impact a huge portion of our housing stock here in Ann Arbor do we have any updates on any of those three topics um I can say oh go ahead let's hear some more agenda items and then we can we can if we have time talk about that that's
090a member groups thanks um on agenda items obviously we've got the list we generated early in the year but um one of the things that has come up um certainly in the Fifth Ward where the power surges that um happened and had a lot of damage to um about a I think it was about a hundred homes um that were impacted um and I've certainly heard a number of number of residents have raised questions about you know what could have prevented that when actions could have been taken I've I've had conversations with DTE and gotten some information and I certainly think that they could be providing some more information but I do think that community members are looking for information a more neutral third party um and potentially even other utilities or something like that
091to to talk about um you know what actions um could be taken to prevent could have been taken to prevent this and could be taken to prevent it in the future um because certainly the information that I've gotten is not particularly satisfactory yeah thank you um I want to share that that's the area of interest for me too um but councilm over Riggs could you comment on you you definitely did here but um just more specifically what perspectives do you think would be helpful because something I was thinking about moving forward with the commission um is having the opportunity for a bit of a forum like inviting folks from different perspectives to kind of talk on a topic um because I think you know just getting kind of expanding our view on on these issues
092could be really helpful and so could you think of anything um does anything come to mind you mentioned what actions could be taken what could have prevented it but um like would a community perspective help or I know that OSI has um his solicited input from residents about kind of what their experiences are so I think we have not we have that likely documented experience um I think that there's likely you know for my conversations it's somewhat challenging for us as a city to identify um whether or not um you know what could have been done to prevent this you know was this was this out of line and we don't necessarily have the data the information um as a city to understand really the details of specific case and so it's a little challenging
093um I think for staff to be able to provide really strong feedback to Residents but it is um you know from the perspective of DTE this was uh Act of God and um yeah that was that's that's the way things are and I think residents are looking for more information about you know what are the actions that utilities take to prevent um incidents like this and has DTE taken them or at least what could what could be done so okay sort of a knowledge Gap that I think we're facing um and limited helpful information coming from you know not necessarily always a fully trusted source thank you thank you yeah just that information helps a lot okay great uh commissioner Levin sorry about that um yeah just to jump in on this topic real quick
094I have been following it a little bit from on next door where people had been posting stuff about that and one of the things that I what I had heard was DT was basically saying oh you should have had these whole house um surge protector systems which which was like kind of news to me that that was really something that GT had ever mentioned before so I guess that would be one thing I'm kind of curious about like is like who actually other people ask her if they really have these things and like how common is it is that really something that we should expect to have to have in our homes to purchase like certainly they're sensitive um Electronics but a lot of these people had damage to the types of electronics that you
095wouldn't aren't typically the type of things you have surge protectors for so I think that was part of the it from what I heard in the discussion that people were sorry to jump in I also have gotten comments from folks people who have had holes house surge protectors and because of the voltage of this line that came down um uh it went it didn't matter if you had a whole house surge protector um so um you know that's part of the one of the also challenges of of this specific case but also you know I yeah I think we're we're looking to provide you know people with tools for resiliency in our community but also um you know provide some level of good information and accountability as well no no see well I will share
096that I'm interested in the home electrification uh Expo and the energy advisor service and I'd like to put on the agenda um some some reports back on those um I think following the energy advisor service will be really valuable um kind of to the point that we were discussing earlier which is you know getting more information out out there um to Residents about what matters and some Investments they can make especially given that there will be some new resources becoming available from the city and through the millage and also from from the federal rebates and tax credits all right yes commissioner um I'll just I'll just add for future agendas I think this might have been on the the one that we had done at the beginning of the year but just a another vote
097for taking a look at potentially getting someone to or a forum on marginal emissions and um the impact of marginal missions uh is sort of one of a set of tools that we might be able to use um not only for the city but also for a variety of different purposes all right I will move to adjournment right so it is currently 7 26 P.M and as the chair I declare this meeting adjourned thanks all good night great job Claire all right first time