001uh I call this meeting to order at 7 00 PM welcome to the March 23rd 2022 electronic meeting of the environmental commission this meeting is in accordance with executive orders from the governor to affect social distancing and mitigate the spread of the covid-19 virus we intend to conduct this meeting similarly to an in-person meeting however please be patient if there are technical issues public comment will be via telephone only to speak during any of the public comment opportunities please call 877-853-5247 and enter meeting ID 922-96-96-1644 [Music] this information is also available on the published agenda in the Public Notices section of the city website and on the broadcast of this meeting on CTN Channel 16 18 T channel 99 and online at www.a2gov.org slash watch CTN okay uh do you want to start with the
002land acknowledgment Sean sure here I acknowledge that the land the city of Ann Arbor occupies is the ancestral traditional and contemporary lands of the anishinabe including Odawa Ojibwe and badewadmi and YN dot peoples I further acknowledge that our city stands like almost all property in the United States on lands obtained generally in unconscionable ways from indigenous peoples The Taking of this land was formalized by the Treaty of Detroit in 1807 knowing where we live work study and recreate does not change the past but a thorough understanding of the ongoing consequences of this past can Empower us and our work to create a future that supports human flourishing and justice for all individuals thank you Sean um let's proceed to the Roll Call sorry we just had another panelist comments I'll just promote them all right
003all right um council member Ekman here Ann Arbor thank you uh chairperson Brown president in Ann Arbor thank you commissioner Keller work here thank you uh commissioner Curtis here Ann Arbor thank you commissioner Dale right uh council member dish here Indiana thank you commissioner Gabe Randall here in Ann Arbor thank you commissioner Graham here's Ann Arbor thank you uh commissioner Gruber all right uh commissioner mursky here in my home in Ann Arbor thank you uh Vice chairperson Mitchell you're in Ann Arbor thank you commissioner netridge Aaron Ann Arbor thank you and uh commissioner oriel all right um commissioner wahing all right um and let me count heroin that is a quorum great thank you Sean uh the next item on the agenda is approval of this agenda um do I have a motion to uh
004the agenda is written um Shannon um any discussion okay hearing and seeing new um no desire for discussion um all who approve of the agenda as submitted raise your hands aye any uh or say aye any uh Nays any abstentions okay that was uh the agenda as submitted was passed universally uh unanimously uh so uh the next item on the agenda is the approval of the minutes from our previous meeting which was held on March 10th um uh the February meeting was postponed until March 10th so do I have a motion to review the agenda minutes uh Lisa dish and then uh seconds um any discussion or suggested amendments all right um all who approve the minutes of the March 10th meeting raise your hand and say aye aye any opposed any abstentions okay here
005in C9 so the minutes are approved unanimously as well um the next item on the agenda is public commentary this is an opportunity for persons to speak for up to three minutes please call 877 [Music] 853-5247 and enter meeting ID 922-9696-1644 [Music] this meeting this information is also displayed on the meeting agenda and video feed City staff will select callers that have raised their hand one by one using the last three digits of your phone number in order to electronically raise your hand to indicate your desire to speak please press star nine on your phone you will hear an automated announcement that the host is allowing you to speak when speaking please move to a quiet area and mute any television or background sounds so that we may hear you clearly please state your name
006and address at the beginning of your comments uh and be patient there can be a delay of up to 30 seconds before a connection is established and once again you may call [Music] 877-853-5247 or 312-626-6799 and enter meeting ID 922-9696-1644 [Music] uh do we have anybody online yet uh we do we have eight uh phone call on listeners and two hands raised so I will go ahead and allow phone number ending in two four five okay uh 245 it looks like you are muted so if you could unmute can you hear me yes we can thank you yes thank you I'm Kathleen Murphy I live at 3 15. Linda Vista Street that's in ward 5. the gas ban in all new buildings and retrofitted buildings was proposed by the Planning Commission at the end of
0072022. it was to have been voted on by the city council in February or March of 2023 but those meetings keep get getting postponed well I worry that this proposal is being indefinitely postponed I'd like to speak about the tremendously positive impact this proposal could have if all new buildings are newly retrofitted buildings are to be recommended from the start they will not have to be transitioned to Electric in the future 820 and a city's goal of reaching carbon neutrality by 2030 will never be met if A2 continues being powered by gas every new movie that starts out being powered by gas will eventually have to be retrofitted for electricity in the future in the meantime the city's carbon footprint flourishes as we continue to power buildings with gas the city has approved seven all
008elected development projects since 2020 demonstrating the feasibility of all Olympics and new construction roughly 50 cities and countless and counties across the country have passed ordinances Banning or restricting natural gas in new construction and major renovations I hope that the environmental commission can have a voice in supporting the gas ban I think I understand that recently the city will postpone the gas ban until it renegotiates a heat franchise due in 2027 when the current franchise the DTE Runs Out I think the gas ban can't wait until then 2027 and should be started immediately thank you very much yeah thank you for your uh your input to the commission Ms Murphy who's next up uh next we have caller ending in three four five I'm allowing you to talk now hi this is Kitty Khan I
009live on Cross Street in the Fifth Ward I'm going to read portions of a statement that Jerry Hancock submitted to a 2021 webinar in answer to questions regarding 415 West Washington and building on a floodplain quote most of the 415 West Washington Street site is in the floodplain of Allen Creek a floodway portion is being recommended for open space and the future Tree Line Allen Creek urban trail that is an ideal use of the floodway in this urban area the remainder of the site is in the flood Fringe portion of the flood plain proposing to develop the flood Fringe either for public buildings or sailed for private development would be counter to the mitigation strategies approved by City Council in our 2017 Ann Arbor Hazard mitigation plan the idea of planning for residential uses is
010not suitable from a floodplain management standpoint while codes may allow residential uses in the flood Fringe building elevated residential structures in the flood Fringe increases the responsibility and cost of City emergency services and responding to flood events increases the risk of occupants being injured in a flood and flood plain construction is more costly the United States Department of Housing and Urban Development prohibits spending Federal money for residential uses in the floodplain for these reasons the city should also avoid facilitating residential uses in the floodplain since the city owns this floodplain property there is an opportunity to positively exceed the building codes and plan a resilient use that mitigates the previous development impact and considers future flood conditions the current proposal of a mixed-use building that includes residential and occupies the entire flood Fringe is not
011a desirable outcome for the site from a floodplain management standpoint the maximum amount of development on this site should not have a flood a footprint larger than the current buildings should be elevated as proposed and should not have any residential use unquote please use whatever influence you have as a commission with city council to discourage them from approving their plan for this site the city has been buying floodplain properties to protect them and it is just senseless to build and floodplain land it already owns thank you very much uh well thank you for your input Miss Khan and I I should just mention in this context that our the environmental commission's bylaws um prohibit us from we're remarking on individual developments but we're certainly interested in um in the general uh in the general uh
012policies of building and flood Plains here in Ann Arbor okay um so who's next um uh yes we have a phone number ending in 4-1-1 I'm allowing you to talk now and uh commissioner Brown can you hear me uh yes we can hear you uh uh hello commissioner Brown and uh uh chairman Brown and vice chair uh Mitchell this is uh James D'Amour and I I wanted to uh touch base with you on a couple things that are before you tonight um first off uh regarding uh the resolution regarding uh um uh gas-fired uh issues I support the resolution that's before you this evening I really feel we need to move forward on this and uh um to meet a20 goals I frankly feel um with how the previous caller has said that we have
013such a Zeal um for promoting development issues and I realize it's not the EC's uh uh on purview here um but we are pushing and pushing for development and it seems that all other considerations are secondary whereas recommendations for going all electric or ignoring our natural features which certainly has happened at Concord Pine developments and uh um and what I'm seeing uh in terms of uh what's going down at 415 West Washington I really urge the uh commission to really look strongly at pushing strong natural features ordinances and protections um was really with regard to building uh something in the flood plain we are at um you know 100 Year events 500 Year events on a much shorter time frame and wreath with the climate crisis we have to be resilient I think we need
014to take very seriously the notion of development in the flood plain just a personal anecdote that's certainly not compared to a multi-story building in a flood plain but we are digging out uh from a twenty thousand dollar uh um bill of uh flood damage to our home uh due to the the power shortage um water can make a big difference um we I am I living in a home that should have been never been built in a high water table area I'm not sure the Heinz 2020 is 1100 year old home but all of you in terms of uh managing uh um saying the standards for protect your natural features and protecting our natural systems including our waterways we absolutely need to be firm I'm listening to the science and when it comes to development
015issues and I say this to uh council member dish and councilman admin you I realize your Zeal and moving forward I realize you have some goals and we can discuss those goals and whether they're realistic or not but one thing you just simply cannot ignore we need to protect our natural features and I strongly urge uh the commit this body um to put measures and resolutions the pace to protect our our floodplain and our floodways and uh um commissioner Brown thank you for your time um thank you Mr D'Amour for your input to the commission um anybody else have their hand up Sean uh yes we have a caller a phone number ending in two zero two again that's two zero two now allowing you to talk my name is Rita lock Caruso I live
016at 556 Glendale Circle in Ann Arbor I am professor emeritos of Toxicology at the University of Michigan I was an inaugural member of this environmental commission I served for 14 years including three years as its chair I want to speak to the first item on your your agenda of new business putting residential structures in the floodplain especially high intensity residential structures it's simply Reckless it's a disregard of science it's a disregard of Public Safety numerous federal agencies recognize this Hazard and our own city ordinances and City plans recognize this hazard long-range forecasts predict increased frequency of severe rain events in our area because of climate change it's irresponsible to promote new residential development on sites that reside in the floodplain flooding close is even greater hazards when a site has significant pollution of soil and
017groundwater during flooding these pollutants will mix with the flood water pollutants mixing with the flood water can expose citizens as well as Public Safety officers to hazardous chemicals and can spread the pollutants off-site into nearby homes and structures as well as contaminate storm water drains and surface waters it's recognized by every U.S federal agency and safety agency as well as the World Health Organization that this scenario of hazardous chemical releases into flood water requires careful analysis and expertise to ensure protection of health and safety fortunately the city of Ann Arbor has a highly credentialed storm water and flood programs coordinator Jerry Hancock to protect the city its residents and its businesses the city needs to use his expertise to ensure that the necessary guardrails for health and safety are in place in summary the city
018of Ann Arbor should follow its ordinances and plans and utilize staff expertise to reduce hazards from flooding by careful consideration of all options for better flight plane management thank you thanks for your input Ms lock Caruso um anybody else Sean uh yes we have a call our phone number ending in five three four again that is five three four hello this is Tom stahlberg I'm calling Lower Town in Ann Arbor and I'm calling in as a former subdivision developer a current real estate professional who's done a lot of renovation of duplexes and a future developer because I'm eyeing a site for a small multi-family development in terms of your second resolution about uh natural gas I fully support doing whatever we can there and I know there's some hurdles there so I support intern measures
019in terms of that I also suggest and have spoken with other bodies about this that we have a measurement on every application that comes in essentially what we used to call say an environmental impact statement a carbon impact statement when we're weighing our decisions whether we say yes or no little project or however we want to influence that project we should have a number on that so that we know if we approve that project as is what we have to do the rest of us and make up for the deficit that we're greeting if a20 really means Zero by 2030 every time you put something in one column you're going to have to balance it out somewhere else so I encourage every Commission line the commission environmental commission energy commission every commission and Council to
020work towards uh getting a number on every single project I don't know what it takes to acquire that where a resolution would start but I'm encouraging that also in terms of storm water just from my experience at developing subdivision there it's getting worse and I've seen the impact of what just a little bit of extra water can do say in a Suburban subdivision with a wooded wetland it doesn't take much to push that over the edge to be a dying swamp storm water is part of our climate crisis it is what we see in Michigan as the impact of a global crime climate situation the development that I'm looking at doing I took a civil engineer out there that evaluated and I said help me design this so that I can exceed stormwater measures because
021in my lifetime it's going to be a lot worse and Washington County and city of Ann Arbor have very good standards right now but we need to even have better because of what's coming in my opinion so we're great but let's get even better in terms of managing our storm water every project that we put in right now is actually an opportunity to exceed the legal limits of our standards this we can somehow incentivize developers to do that because our existing infrastructure is inadequate and we know that our built environment is inadequate it's great that we have great standards how can we do even more to help make up for what we're lacking because we know this problem is only going to get worse in terms of the severity intensity and frequency of intense storm
022events one small point on 415 West Washington uh I've spoke at Council the other day um this application does not meet the intent of our ordinances it does not meet the intent of our city policies in multiple ways one of them has to do with the flood plain another has to do with its approach to the historic district um so I think it's a problematic application to start with and uh I know you're not going to comment on that individual project but I do want you to take a serious look at it and I'm hoping other bodies also take a serious look at that project thank you very much yeah thanks for your input Mr Stolper um Sean anybody else uh yes we have a number ending in zero one two again that is zero
023one two hello hi um my name is my name is Muffy McKenzie I live at 217 3rd Street and uh I uh realized that you are not specific um Parcels in the city of Ann Arbor but I would like to discuss um the 415 West Washington um and I wanted to say that my property a butts the the um the property of 415 West Washington yes we can't hear you uh we appear to have lost them they are no longer online um in the meantime we do have another caller um we have a number ending at 879 again that number ends in 879 you should not be able to speak hi this is Vince Caruso from 556 bondale Circle according to hear me hello we can yes I'm sorry could you hear me yes we
024can hear you oh okay I'm sorry uh um thanks Caruso 556 Glendale Circle uh coordinator member and founding member of the animals Creek Watershed group acwg.org board and founding member of the card group Coalition for action on remediation of The Oxen and a former executive committee member of the serial Club hero ballet group uh putting residential housing at 415 Washington would be a major mistake and dangerous and as poorly in this poorly understood floodplain uh new discussions at City Hall regarding developing 415 is they'll advise and dangerous the Owls Creek Watershed group does not support this proposal we communicated this the city council the Planning Commission our watershed management plan adopted by the DEQ Washington County and city of Ann Arbor agrees with Jerry Hancock's comments on floodplain management the First Street Foundation open source
025flood modeling entity has been working closely with the Federal Emergency Management agency FEMA in recent years to update the greatly lowballed ball floodplain maps by up to 33 percent and FEMA agrees and need to be updated FEMA is now working on FEMA 2.0 to update these maps that they say are inaccurate our current city leaders pretend to plan for global warming but proposed building and residential no less in a dangerous floodplain location for some reason the city officials failed to involve Jerry Hancock on the evaluation of the 415 plan mining officials said it stated it was our bad Jerry made comments anyway the previous caller quoted him um as Rita my wife has said chemicals on this side are said to be uh be treated but they float and Float water in addition to chemicals
026from flooded cars uh could be very dangerous these chemicals will migrate into the neighborhoods and contaminate potentially contaminated homes in the old west side this site at 415 West Washington was completely flooded in 1968 in the Hundred Year rain some would say it was really a 50-year rain we had City officials Washington uh Watershed council members and City and other County officials in that building when it flooded and they could not leave the building they soon to be drain commissioner who was at that meeting his car was totaled with the flood water um they had no idea how dangerous the flood was going to be which tells you something that the flood exports were trapped in a building on this site The Six Day flood wars were very close to the train trestle tracks at
0274 15 at 10 feet 6 inches high above the roadway this site is all like in all likelihood uh has much more floodway due to climate change and seeing a low balling of floodplain maps and we're much more dangerous than the map suggests we really need to pay attention to flood Hazard we've had thousand year rains in Michigan uh up towns were destroyed uh 13 Bridges were destroyed near Holland Michigan on a 500 year range they're happening more often and are much much more dangerous than people understand voters passed in Ann Arbor affordable housing tax Proposal with a ban on funds being used in floodplains for a reason Town Square washer group Champion the resolution with our council member at the time so it's playing the Floyd the delineations in this site are arguably out
028there and inaccurate unsafe for suspecting individuals Dr Missy Stahl for city of sustainability and Innovation Innovations manager States at the A2 kickoff that she did not support building in the floodplain period no discussion no question just no uh so he has made major mistakes in this area in the floodplain the homeless shelter had to be stopped construction had to have a stop work order because a local residents including the house group showed that uh the DEQ that the building would have been in the floodway which was illegal that million dollar plan was scrapped and they redid the building and built right up to the line that the DQ drove with a pencil uh probably now the building is probably in the floodway as it moved up the hill Hawaii on West Washington lost the required
029FEMA free board open one foot floodplain safety zone and just 1.5 years after it was built a very dangerous situation we need to make sure that we don't put our residents In Harm's Way and floodplains need to be respected thank you yeah Mr Caruso you're running you've run out of time uh do you want to wrap up quickly hello I'm fine that's okay thanks sorry I ran over thank you that's all right um thank you for your input um anybody else online Sean uh yes we have a caller uh phone number ending in zero one two again that's zero one two you should now be able to speak oh yeah that's Miss McKenzie hello Miss Mackenzie I'm so sorry uh my apologies I don't know what happened there that's okay we can hear you yeah
030okay good so I just wanted to continue that um I'm a homeowner whose property abuts the 415 West Washington uh which is a contaminated site in the floodplain and flood way which um uh people before me have been discussing um I'm not a scientist or a flood expert but I do have some common sense enough to know that a toxic site in a flood way uh is a potential catastrophe as you know the city has known about the contaminants on the site for a long time and yet there has been uh no cleanup now we're finding out that there are even more contaminants as well as toxic plume on this site not only in our neighborhood but across the street from the Ann Arbor YMCA where children or friends our grandparents frequent why aren't people
031yelling from their rooftops to have this tax site cleaned up now the the city's solution to this urgent situation is to try and find a developer who will build a 70-foot tall building to house hundreds of residents in a toxic blood plane and floodway it makes no sense to me that you know other than this push to develop without um consequences um and the responsibility for this cleanup should not depend on or wait on some unknown developer who may or may not purchase this contaminated site in a flood area who knows how long that process will take this isn't this is urgent for the health and well-being of our entire community and it needs to be addressed yesterday how much will this cleanup cost we have yet to be given any concrete numbers has a
032city tried to find alternative funding for the cleanup I have not heard of any such inquiries I'm hoping that with your knowledge and expertise you'll be able to find some solutions or encourage the city to clean this fight up now I thank you very much for your time and uh would appreciate some advocacy on this issue um yeah thank you for your input Ms McKenzie um anybody else on the line Sean uh we do not have any more hands raised okay um excuse me Sean I do happen to know that someone was trying is there a possibility for you to tell if someone is on the line and unable to indicate um I can look to see if you have the phone number I can look to see if their number is in the list
033we do also have a hand raise now um but I can look for the number that you have if that's a new number then that's probably the right one right now uh it's a number ending in four six four uh again that's number is four six four you should be not able to be able to speak yes uh can you hear me yes we can hear you oh thank you so much that was me I'm I'm on a phone and for some reason the star nine wasn't working but I think I finally managed to get it to work so thank you so much um you've got such a big oh my name is Linda barauer and I live at 421 3rd Street and you've got such a big agenda I hope you will allow me
034to talk briefly on all three items I'm so happy to see the pollinator habitat resolution um in addition to recommending less frequent Mowing and keeping Lawns six to eight inches in Spring and reduced raking and leaf cleanup and fall I would suggest it could be strengthened by specifying the delayed cleanup means not just leaving the leaves in place but also not cutting down dead stems and seed heads in the fall and explicitly recommending that those actions should be delayed and delayed molding in Spring until after a week of 50 degree temperature so as not to disturb the many pollinators that overwinter and dry plant material and I understand there were some complaints last year about Nomo may but there was also enthusiastic support for it in the community and I just want you to be
035aware that there was amazing support and excitement over it so going forward I think the most important thing is that you recommend the city develop and promote fun and attractive educational materials about how to preserve pollinator habitat and discouraging the use of pesticides and artificial fertilizers as far as the gas then I totally support Banning it in new construction and I know planning staff bought a very creative solution to Planning Commission recently the proposed of doing it via our zoning code since the state doesn't allow it via our building code and it's really important to find a way to do this via our zoning rules as soon as possible seems that every week a massive new development is approved with gas hookups that will produce more emissions than the emissions reduced by any reduction in
036commuters from the resulting density or the actions taken so far under our a20 plan so if we're serious about the a20 plan it doesn't make any sense to allow gas hookups and new constructions and responsible Builders are doing the right thing in new developments at Ann Arbor right now which shows that it is possible the other builders just need to follow suit and just asking politely hasn't gotten the results so I hope you will recommend city council put some teeth into a gas band for new construction and then lastly the flood plain I'm looking forward to Jerry Hancock's presentation tonight I personally think the city should adopt a policy of no new building in flood Plains period certainly not on properties it owns and somebody else stated the city's buying floodplain properties and tearing down
037stuff to open up the flood Plains so we shouldn't be building new stuff on properties we already own that are in the flood plain um and I think the environmental commission needs to hopefully will support our floodplain coordinators advice on this and recommend such a thing to council um just one more point from today's PowerPoint presentation it seems that the greatest flood plain in the city is in Allens Creek which isn't surprising and I want to point out there are three city-owned Parcels in Allens Creek 415 West Washington 721 North Main and 1st and William and of these there's an active proposal to put hundreds of new units on the 415 site so a broad floodplain resolution is really critical right now and at a recent city council meeting while the debate debating developing 415
038West Washington when asked about flood insurance I think an incomplete answer was given by staff so I hope that tonight you will ask the city flip you'll ask Jerry Hancock to explain how flood insurance can be decreased city-wide because the city participates in a commuting rating system which gives us credits for doing above and beyond the minimally required flood plain requirements I can if you give me just one more minute what he said in a um you've got a baby 15 seconds okay I just want to please ask Gary that yeah I'll wrap it up I just I just want to I hope somebody will ask Jerry that question about how we can reduce flood insurance rates city-wide by going above and beyond what we're currently doing just minimally in floodplain management thank you so
039much um thank you very much for your input Mackenzie anybody else John uh we do not have any other hands raised at the moment okay all right well uh this ends the first period of public commentary there'll be another period at the end of this meeting um so there is no unfinished unfinished business uh today so we'll move on to the new business and um the first item up is discussion of risks and management of new and existing Construction in the floodplain area which will begin with um a presentation by Jerry Hancock hey thank you for inviting me tonight so I was asked to put together a presentation to get a conversation started so I have a short presentation [Music] are you seeing my screen yes yep yes uh all right so for those of
040you that don't know me I'm Jerry Hancock I am the storm water and floodplain programs coordinator and the systems planning unit uh I've been at the city for almost 33 years and during that 33 years floodplain management has been part of my responsibility the whole time uh in addition to my work at the city I'm also the executive director of the Michigan stormwater floodplain Association which is a Statewide Association of St of floodplain managers so I'm going to go through this will be kind of a basic uh floodplain management uh presentation just to get conversations going since this is your meeting and you ask me to come if you feel the need to interrupt me please do but otherwise we can continue talking after the presentation uh so floodplained I'm gonna go through a few
041of the terminologies so a floodplain is made up of two parts there's actually more parts than that but two main parts the floodway and the flood Fringe the flood way is where water moves with a disruptive Force there's there are more regulations in that area than the flood Fringe the water sort of piles up and recedes and you'll hear the term 100-year storm that is a and that is not really used by FEMA anymore it's really the one percent annual chance our flood maps that we have come from FEMA in addition to the the maps themselves there's a study that goes along with the maps that shows uh much more detail about flood elevation this is what a FEMA flood map looks like but FEMA also provides us with the digital files so we so
042what you see on the city's uh website and then also internally our GIS it draws from the exact same information that's on the the FEMA web um flood maps to give you a sense of how much flood plain there is in the city of Ann Arbor it represents about 10 percent of the city now given a lot of that is is the Huron River but as far as structures go there are about 500 a little more than 500 structures in the flood plain the majority of those are in Allen Creek and its branches so there was some questions that came about flood insurance so flood insurance is required if a structure is in the flood plain and there is a federally backed mortgage so that's different than if the property is in the flood plain
043it's you know the flood insurance is required required for structures um the national flood insurance program however is currently 20 billion 20.5 billion dollars in debt this number has stayed consistent for the last few years but as a result Congress is continually looking at ways to improve this program because obviously it wouldn't be in debt if it were a solid program so there have been several efforts to make reforms to it particularly in 2012 there's a major overhaul but then people um didn't like the results and screamed loudly enough to get Congress to undo their uh the changes and um they moved they were trying to move towards getting rid of subsidies and move towards the actuary rates and they're still moving in that direction but then uh last year uh FEMA implemented the First
044new pricing methodology it's called risk rating 2.0 so the way that the um the rates are figured out are is completely different than they were for the past 40 years and that's the first time that they've changed the the methodology since the implementation of the program within the national flood insurance program there is a a program was mentioned by one of the callers it's called the community rating system and and they do offer the ability to lower flood insurance rates for communities to go above and beyond the minimum standards this chart represents like what what the result of the of the program is so it's a it's a point system and the more things that you do that are go above and beyond minimum standards the more points you get and communities start out at
045a at a class 10 you go from the bottom to the top and as you get more points each class there is a corresponding reduction in insurance rates for every policy in the community we are currently at a class six with off to the side there you can see we have 200 and Excuse Me 2 points which gives us a 20 discount um we've act I put a little plus there because I we actually got a few more points for the most recent Hazard mitigation plan that aren't represented there and the way it's a very complicated system and it'll it may take a little while before those are represented they're not we didn't get enough points to get us to the next level but we're getting pretty close so I just mentioned uh Hazard mitigation
046plan so um the way that uh communities get mitigation money from FEMA um you you have to have a flood mitigation plan or a hazard mitigation plan to be eligible for mitigation money it's also a way for this for communities to prioritize or identify different mitigation methods or projects so we started this this effort in 2007 with the first flood mitigation plan and then FEMA changed the way that the mitigation planning works and and change it to require all Hazard plans and these plans expire in five years so you can see where we've been on a path of 2007 2012 2017 and then just in November of last year we adopted our latest Hazard mitigation plan that's because they expire every five years so here are a few things that have been accomplished since 2007.
047uh well we got new maps and one thing I want you to notice about all these the all of these take a very long time well employing management is you have to be in it for the Long Haul um just just kidding and getting new maps the FEMA process you can see it took seven years uh but once we had the the first flood mitigation plan in place we were eligible to apply for Pima grants and so um I work on a couple different grants the 415 was excuse me uh 219 West Kingsley that is also people called the fish Park we received a FEMA grant for that and then there were also also a couple structures that we tore down at 721 North Main now when FEMA gives grant money for that in return
048you have to deed restrict the property that's that's their their incentive to give you money they want to know that you're not going to build buildings in the flood plain and then there was a long effort to join the community rating system oops uh and we actually joined at a um class seven and then through some additional effort improved to a class six and we're continuing to try to improve that uh and one of the major recommendations of the hazard mitigation plans was to do a floodplain management overlay district and we're finally successful at implementing that in January of 2021 and then probably the biggest uh project at least money wise that came out of the hazard mitigation planning was doing the Allen Creek Railroad berm opening and I can talk about that later if
049people have questions about that but that that project was actually identified in the 2007 plan so even though I wrote here 2015 to present 15 that's when we started getting a FEMA Grant but the effort actually started in 2007 so it's a very long project this is just a if you're not familiar with uh this is a map showing some floodplain and uh where the Kingsley fish Park is at the couple buildings that we tore down on 721 North Main and where the Allen Creek berm opening project is at the mouth of animal Creek thank you so I was asked to touch touch base on changing weather patterns now I know that most of you probably already know most of this stuff but temperatures are increasing which is causing precipitation to increase uh in both
050in frequency and intensity which results in increase in runoff this chart while it's 10 years old it documents the increase in both temperature and precipitation from 1951 to 2012 so during that period there was a 41 increase in the one percent annual chance floods and 44 increase in annual precipitation this is this is a stat from a long-term staff from the city here in the city of days when that we've received over two inches of rain and while it's all up and down you can tell the general trend is moving up and then here here's some storm event I put this together based on you know actual events that happened here in Ann Arbor and so uh the cybers is percent annual chance just so you know one percent annual chance that's what people call
051the Hundred Year event a 10 percent would be a 10-year event a four percent would be a 50-year and a two percent okay excuse me four percent is a 25-year and a two percent of 50 year and the takeaway from this is that these storms happen way more often than what the what the year storm uh would suggest so just looking at the 10-year storm between 2009 and 15 like we had was six tenure storms in a seven year period and I and I put uh those 2014 on here because we actually got had flood damage from uh just one year event that particular year so some people thought it was a bigger event than what it was um so just support that idea that that um the size storms that we're getting are are
052getting larger uh Noah is the ones who determine uh the flood predictions or the size of storms they like they figure out what a hundred year 12-hour storm is and they have this fantastic charts but using that one percent annual chance um the old numbers which were based from their previous estimates in 1992 to the new ones that we're using now which are now 10 years old but in 2013 uh there was a 17 increase in the size of a hundred year of a storm event our current maps are actually based on the older values and then this is just to drive home that not only can we say that storms are getting bigger but the actual amount of flood damage in Michigan you can see that the trend here while this goes back a
053long ways but starting in the 90s the trend just it starts moving up which kind of matches the uh increase in storm events too so the city has we have a calibrated stormwater model of all Creek sheds within the city and you don't need to read any of the numbers on on here uh but what this chart is showing is that the the top section lists the amount of Acres buildings and Parcels in the floodplain on the FEMA Maps the second and our middle part lists the numbers from from the cities model what we're predicting and there are a few major differences we used newer uh storm amounts we used actual flow and we use better Contour information and then the bottom part shows the difference and the uh the point of this slide is
054that the difference all those numbers are positive there are no negative numbers so our model predicts that everywhere within the city the the flood plain is um ultimately larger that may not mean in ever on every parcel it's larger or even in each creep set but but at least portions of the flood plain and each Creek said there's some area that's larger so one of the things in the stormwater model that we're able to do are for we had our consultant do and we first put it together as we put various scenarios together um we have this one we call that the future the future scenario so we we took every single family home and said they're get that yard has a rain Garden all private property all U of M Property um let's say
055it pretend it's redeveloped to meet our current stormwater standards and in all streets are revised to uh or redeveloped to be green students what would what would the flood plain look like so the result was we know there'd be a major Improvement in water quality and significant reduction in flooding for smaller events basically up to about the 10-year event but the hundred year or one percent annual chance looks about the same so in other words we can't build ourselves out of floodplain the floodplain management is uh the need for it is not going to go away I mentioned the um floodplain management overlay zoning District I just want to go through two different aspects of it there's lots of different aspects of it about how high you build and um what the threshold for when
056things kick in change but there are some prohibitions for the floodway and for the flood Fringe and I've mentioned the floodway is the area where it's more dangerous more destructive So within the flood Plains we now prohibit critical facilities new residential uses new buildings additions increases and and closed floor area creating habitable space that would be like this happens all the time where someone wants to put bedrooms in a basement uh egress windows and doors accessory structures structures without foundations like trailers toilets because toilets run continuously during a flood and send all the flood water to the um water treatment plant or other wastewater treatment plant we prohibit fill and then parking lots there's there's some limitations to when parking lots are are allowed but mostly we don't allow parking loans and then this this
057is the limitations on the flood Fringe so there are a little there are fewer limitations but um critical facilities are prohibited structures without foundations egress windows and toilets and that is kind of a little overview of floodplain management so I can take questions uh if necessary we can pull up uh flood maps if you want to look at those or we could just go from things on the presentation um yeah thank you Jerry um yeah please uh raise your hand using the feature and zoom um John you have your hand up and then Dharma Akron thanks Jerry we appreciate your service and excellent presentation I got three quick questions that I'll just fire away and hopefully you can answer them quickly first of all I thought that the city's flood maps had been changed from
058a one percent annual change chance to a 500 year and you reference the 100 years several times or the one the one percent um and I'm wondering what what the status of that is and I'm wondering if on slide 18 the model delineated um is based on the 0.2 percent or the one percent on slide eight you talk about a special flood Hazard area I'm wondering if you can explain to us what that is and then I'm wondering if some of the callers talked about construction or no construction at a particular site in the flood plain and whether that would and that that might release um toxins and and I'm wondering if whether there's construction or no construction whether that has any impact whatsoever on the release of any contaminants in the soil those are
059the three questions thank you okay um so our Maps the the flood maps do show the the one percent and they also show the 500 year which is called the 0.2 percent it's just that there are very few regulations related to the related to the um the 0.2 percent so we don't talk about it very much because the the in in CD code we don't have any regulations in that area and uh in the city in the building code there are some uh critical facilities are required to be elevated above the the point two percent um one of the things in our uh our regulations at the city since the building code requires critical facilities to be elevated above the point two percent we have now required that for all buildings so any building that
060has to be elevated um the height now would need to be elevated above the 0.2 percent uh and it's actually one foot above that the building code is one foot above the one percent um so sorry I was I had that app up there where'd that go so on this particular uh map the red shows the floodway the Orange shows the one percent and the yellow shows the two percent and that though that's right from FEMA that's on the FEMA Maps already so it does show both um and you ask about our model what our model is based on the our model is is based on all storms you can put any size storm into it and get an answer showing that particular storm for our analysis of how our model compares to the FEMA
061model we only compared it to the one percent just because that's where most of the regulations revolve around the one percent and that's and even flood insurance flood insurance isn't required beyond the one percent so like this map here the areas between the orange and the yellow flood insurance wouldn't be required so it's just that well we don't often show it because there's there's so little regulation within it um and then you ask about the special flood Hazard area that's just that's just a FEMA term for any of these areas that we're showing they're all special flood Hazard areas if it has a flood zone it's a special flood Hazard area um and then your question about toxins I am definitely not the right person um contamination is not my area of expertise I really
062uh wouldn't have be able to answer that accurately it is common uh for floodplain managers to talk about Vehicles parked in the flood plain because it's just like you know sort of like common sense if there's oils and stuff on the vehicles it will get into the flood waters and cause cause pollutants thank you um let's see Dharma had her end up with Tom Rita I don't know what happened to her my question was answered it was about the 500 here so thank you Sarita your hand is up thank you thank you uh thank you Jerry um so I have I'll try and do mine as a sequence as well um and my first question has to do with the community rating system and if we were so we're currently at a class five that
063influences our community rating system for insurance what if we went to a class six what would be the outcome of that in terms of um what it would affect on the insurance rates [Music] um I'd also like to know like if you could just go over again the um the comment that you had about how we can't build our way out of this um you know so we've had improvements made and we've got requirements on um sites retaining the the rain that falls on them for first flush I believe it is um I'd like to understand that a little better um and then like I think this is my last one for now the the whole um thing about it the models that you've used are based on what FEMA has currently are there future
064projections that are available that would be useful to us now uh let's talk about the CRS first um let me find this chart here so we're actually at a class six and improving would go to we would go to a class five and the result would be we would lower the flood insurance by another five percent from we currently get a five percent or twenty five percent I'm sorry a 20 discount and we would we would get a 25 discount and uh we're fairly close I mentioned that we have a few more points than than is currently published uh we're about 91 points um it getting points requires quite a bit but we haven't we have some things identified in the flood Hazard mitigation plan that you know over the next few years if we
065Implement those projects we will more than likely get to a class five uh-huh the the program is very complex and there are there are some prerequisites to get past certain points um the prerequisites to get past a five would require that we regulate storm water on a watershed basis which which is a great idea but doesn't really fit in with Michigan's um government structure because we have so many different communities we'd have to get everyone in each of the watersheds that touch Ann Arbor to all agree to regulate like we do um so it's it's not likely that we would ever get Beyond a five okay but we could get to five so yes getting to five is within sight right and this is while we're on that though that when you say we isn't
066that that's those people who have flood insurance right so it applies to those people in the city who are required to have flood insurance based on their Federal federally backed mortgage is that correct yeah well I'm saying we I mean the city in general but yes the the um discount applies to every single policy within the city so you don't have to be in the flood plain to get flood insurance you can buy flood insurance no matter where you're at it's only required if you're in the um one percent annual chance flood area so um can you remind me what the other sure um the the you can't build your way out of it comment um right how do we how do we take that how do we so what I what I mean is
067like um so we do we do all this great stormwater uh mitigation work by requiring detention and uh for rain Gardens and all and green infrastructure and we can make improvements to where we're not experiencing flooding in smaller events but for these larger events we're still going to have a flood plain that looks about like it does now so I just mean you you can't do enough storm water management to make the flood plain go away yeah okay um um just the projections for more intense and frequent storms and how that is that accommodated for in in what we've looked at so far uh where our current maps are based on uh the 98 estimates that uh Noah that Noah put out so there are current maps already use a smaller event that doesn't necessarily
068mean that the floodplains automatically lower when when uh FEMA does flood mapping they come around to the communities and look for information so next time they come around we'll give them our flood model and our flood model we did uh actual measurements of flow in the storm system and we found that there was a lot less flow in it than was used in the model so they used a small or a smaller event but had higher flows so that there are some things that balance out um can I I say this knowing in particular for Allen Creek because of the um the the berm opening project we're trying to change the flood maps and uh FEMA is going to make us go through the a change for all of Allen Creek and it's because our
069model shows that the flood plain within Allen Creek is a few inches lower than the FEMA model now because we use better Contour there may be areas where even a lower flood plain would show a wider flood plain in some areas but the flood elevation is going down a little bit so FEMA said we have to chase that all the way out to the end of it so that that's an effort that's actually gonna we're going to be going through over the next year is doing a an update to the Allen Creek floodplain model in it it's not necessarily going up it's going to go down slightly but that's just the like the 100 Year elevation would go down maybe that the tenure goes up but okay thank you okay all right Sarah you're you're
070you have the floor hi Jerry thank you for that presentation um I was particularly I had questions on slide four and five um I'm just kind of thinking about Allen Creek as a very special type of floodplain area since it's not actually an open Creek it's a drain that's underground um so kind of comparing your modeling to the open Creeks listed here you know mallets Creek Traver Creek how um how are those inputs different and um I'm assuming it's taken into account that it's like a submerged drain versus a uh open River or Creek yes that and it is taken into account in the modeling it's it's just a different type of model that's used in open Creek versus in closed Creek it's a little more complicated to do to model an enclosed Creek but
071to give you a sense of um of scale in an undeveloped watershed the runoff that fills a creek we call the Bank full flood and that equals about a two-year event or a 50 chance of that in Allen Creek because they basically enclosed the creek and the space that they had that the creek took up it acts just like a regular Creek water is in the pipe and under the ground until we get rains of about a two-year event and then we start seeing surface flooding so so it's really not that different than any other Creek you just don't see it until the flooding starts whereas in an open Creek you can kind of see the Water Rising and then oh my gosh here it comes so are you saying like along the Allen Creek
072drain like you actually will see surface water coming up when it's past that like two-year flood s yes yep so like and there's a few areas where you'll start seeing it a little bit before that right next to the fish park at King's land first is one of the areas Depot Street manhole covers blow up Road yes there's a few local low spots within that starts a little bit earlier but generally you're going to start seeing surface flooding around a two-year event in Allen Creek okay thanks John you have your hand up you have the floor thanks Jerry can you comment from your perspective what the difference is if any are between the former DTE site where the Broadway West development is going in 721 North Main and 415 West Washington because there's there's various
073types of developments that are approved or being considered for all three of those sites uh so comparing the the various sites so the DTE site uh that well that's privately owned so they simply need to follow or build or you know planning codes and building codes um I find that site particularly frustrating in that it's immediately Downstream of a dam but there but we don't have regulations around that not at the state level or not at the local level um there are some recommendations that the state provided me that I provided provided to the developer and they did change their building design to accommodate to give you an example of like you know if if big walls holding up a building are uh perpendicular to the wave that would happen if a Dam breaks that
074would be particularly vulnerable but if they're parallel to the flow if they're the likelihood of damage decreases and so they change some of their design uh based on those recommendations so um so that that was a positive thing um 721 North Main uh it the that site because we received a FEMA Grant to remove structures the flood way portion of that site is deed restricted and cannot be redeveloped um there is an effort right now to split off a small area of that site that's completely out of the flood plain it's up on Summit Street to uh allow for affordable housing to happen there that's completely fine from a floodplain standpoint because it's not in the flood plain what happens with the rest of the site you know we still have to have to decide
075but the floodway portion of it which here I think I think I have that on one of the slides you can see here yeah so the area in red that portion of the site is deed restricted [Music] um and then 415 West Washington is I don't have a map of that up up here but it's similar it has floodway area and it has flood Fringe area and um as you know from my comments and from the callers I wasn't supportive of that because it's contrary to the direction that I've been given by city council for the last you know nearly 20 years of uh doing floodplain management since we started to first flood mitigation plan so um let's say given the time let's be quick about any further q a on this topic so Rita
076you have your hand up you're muted there we go okay sorry um yeah I think I wanted to just touch on one more uh point about um residential in flood Fringe areas and um the whole point of um if federal funds aren't allowed for housing for affordable housing in flood Fringe areas just the whole like is there any difference for anyone to have residential in that same particular space um I think first you have to ask the question of you know like where do regulations come from and and so for instance the building code the building code that we use is based on a national code and there are you know the building industry has say and what goes into those and so and so that they you know they're the building industry has say
077as to what goes into FEMA regulations so it's it's building codes and those regulations are regulating private development um and so they I feel like those codes are are only as strong as what the public including the building industry allows um to me there's a huge difference between asking that question about Land We the city owns versus Pro a private development um and landed Studios we should be following similar rules like like what FEMA follows for themselves so FEMA the federal government has rules that Federal money can't be spent on development in the flood plain I don't personally see why that would be any different for for local communities so I personally think there is a difference between private development and public lands and and that's based on what what FEMA requires and what the
078national flood insurance recommendations are all right um thank you let's see so I think I think we'll move on to the next one but I just have a few comments Jerry uh first of all I'd like to thank you uh for your all the all the data that you're presenting us and uh and your uh in your expert opinion um I think every everybody should um I think this is a topic that's going to come up repeatedly in the environmental commission over the next few years um and I just had one question and that is um have a the the university just announced a large development Upstream in Allen Creek there are no Bell field I believe right and so how much controls does the city have you know what I mean you know okay
079he says yeah yeah sorry I'm not trying to speak I'm sorry I'm just trying to get uh the car unloaded so I'm listening to you I'm sorry okay okay thank you yeah you're welcome Hey so um so um so how can the city be sure that whatever development is going to happen Upstream in Allen Creek you know in land that it's I'm not sure the city can control what the university does and how can the city be assured um that they will not get extra flooding in Allen Creek Downstream of that location [Music] absolutely so uh this this I may use this map to partially explain some of this so first of all the the university is not subject to uh local zoning and that's where our the city's floodplain regulations are in zoning they
080are subject to the building code but they don't come to us for building permits they get those to the state so so the university has to follow the building code um so uh there then there's a couple other levels of of you know different so the area that they're in actually so if you can see the map that I have up here um Hills the the current flood plain Hundred Year floodplain and floodway stop at Hill Street and and then there's a yellow area that goes beyond that that's the that's that 500 year or the 0.2 percent where there aren't very many regulations that's where they're proposing to build so um as far as the building code goes there they just can't build a uh or if they build a critical facility it would need
081to be elevated higher than an other facility that's about the only regulation um but there's one other Factor um the state of Michigan also regulates flood Plains but they're they only can regulate where the contributing area to the property that um you're asking to build on is greater than two square miles and the area where that building is proposed is less than two square miles so the state doesn't have jurisdiction so we have little jurisdiction and the state has a little jurisdiction as far as floodplain management goes but they but they do have to follow the building code okay all right well um um last call for any questions we could take one more no I don't hear and see any so let's move on thank you Jerry um thank you and but I'll just
082urge I'll just make one final comment that I urge everybody to read the city's Hazard mitigation plan and uh in preparation for the next time the subject comes up um the next item on the agenda is a resolution and support of an accelerated action on an ordinance to ban an actual gas connections and new construction and major Renovations and in support of devising and implementing interim measures to incentivize incentivize I think all the electric construction so um let me put this attachment up during our discussion I'll share my screen so that we can go through this let's see can everybody see that okay all right Rito do you want to uh manage this discussion or uh for John I'll do a quick cut uh what if I could I'll do a quick intro and then
083I'll pass it to John if that's okay with you John um I'm uh asked to discuss this item in the interest of the serious concern that that we all should have I think and do have um with the climate crisis that has been announced and identified this week by the ipcc as being really serious um and that our need for our community and for way beyond our limits is to reduce our carbon emissions as soon as possible and to thereby at least attempt to affect the um temperature raised that is it's affecting everything that we touch so with that in mind this was one area where we could have an effect that could um out balance the the emissions related to new construction by just having that new construction not be carbon emitting in the
084long run so there'd be a first burp as I've heard it described of carbon emissions during the construction but afterward that particular building should be clean from excess carbon emissions so that's that's my intro um John would you like to add anything in particular or um this uh resolution was drafted by Ken Garber it was provided to me I indicated that I was in favor of a resolution like this uh and I added some content in the whereas Clauses and added the second resolved clause uh just for some background information that many of you will know uh the city approved the 31st natural gas connected project uh last Monday since a20 was approved in June of 2020. um so we're roughly one a month is being approved um there we know that the city has
085been working at various uh through various means to affect uh a natural gas ban or restrictions put it that way um but uh right now there is no um information that I'm aware of in the public domain that indicates what the resolution date of that will be uh we had talked about a joint energy and Planning Commission meeting last fall it was finally scheduled in February that was canceled no new date has been issued and so uh from I think the perspective of most people in the energy commission by the way we had a first reading of this we did not take a vote so uh I I'm maybe being a little bit presumptuous to to say that the energy commission is going to support this um I think it will but I think the
086concern is that we need to since we have an emergency and since most entities when there is an emergency um do everything they possibly can to implement measures both interim measures and then finally a final final solution uh neither of which we have in place right now that's why we have two Clauses here one asking that basically this city do everything it can to develop some type of ordinance Banning natural cast connections or limiting them to certain um conditions um and then in the meantime because this may not be implemented in in the near term and potentially if there is a solution that's put in place um it could be challenged legally it's asking that the city look at interim measures that could be carrots and sticks based on for example as indicated here uh
087restructuring of fees um priority processing um using different uh discretion when providing incentives possibly even implementing a moratorium and that would have to be defined but doing something um in the meantime so we don't continue to have roughly one new development a month that undermines the a20 plan yeah that's pretty succinct um so um given that time constraints were under here I'm not sure we'll do a full reading of this at this point um and we're certainly not going to get to a vote but let's have a discussion about it if anybody wants to raise a motion Chris Graham do you want do you want to have a discussion uh do I have a second okay Rita seconds it okay so the floor is open for discussion um who Chris would you like to make
088a comment do you have a thought uh generally support you have two questions um I have a heat pump have they evolved in the past 12 years so that they were runs significantly below the freezing temperatures here yes how far below air-to-air heat pumps work quite well to about five degree F but that depends on the quality of the envelope obviously so if you have a very leaky and poorly insulated envelope then they have a harder time keeping up if you have a very very good envelope for example a passive house certified envelope um then air-to-air heat pumps work down into roughly the minus 10 to minus 15 F range okay second question guess cooktops immediate methane when they're off so I assume that applies to cook tops that have pilot lights not the cooktops
089that are modern with good switching mechanisms and that are started by electricity correct or incorrect if I may address that uh there there are leaks in natural gas supply systems throughout the whole system so even if you have a valve or if you have electronic ignition you still have leaks uh I don't know whether I don't think there's any more or less of a leak if you have a pilot burning but clearly you're combusting uh basically 24 hours a day seven days a week Etc so you have more pollutants in the case of a pilot light stove that's I'll let people ask more specific questions if they have them um please use the razor hand feature and zoom otherwise I will not be able to see you out on you you have the floor not
090a question but just saying that I'm I'm also um without having done as much reading on this as I would like very much in favor I do feel like the the farther we go down this road the harder it's going to be to undo what's what's being built right um and I I like the idea of if we can't have an out ban having there being like it appears to be here sticks carrots and sticks right so where there's at least some sort of incentive and some discouragement um to get the behavior that we that we're going for so I think I think it's important we do as fast as we can yeah um any other any other comments questions um Shannon oh oh Dharma and then Shannon I appreciate the fact that this brings
091up uh carrots and sticks I think I actually mentioned that in my comments at a previous council meeting um especially carrots and incentives and I guess I'm just thinking too in terms of incentives I think that there's an education Gap um I noticed this when my husband and I you know were talking about heat pumps and we talked to the person that installs our heater and they told us it can't be done heat pumps don't work in this climate etc etc I just think so I think if you're a traditional what I'm trying to the point I'm trying to give is I know that's not accurate I think that there is a big Knowledge and Skills Gap um for most traditional Builders I'm guessing and what can be done and so I'm wondering if there's
092room also for us to you know create a set of materials or somehow have education be part of it because I think that that might be one of the biggest stumbling blocks of all yeah there's been a discussion for for years about the city having a concierge service where there would be uh you know a central place where City residents could come you know for advice about um you know about what's current the current information about whatever question they may have you know it also um and also have a list of uh contractors that you can contact for for estimates yeah and we're getting that shortly I think that's great for residential but I think it's a different scale when you're a developer working with the whole Contracting crew so can I address that real
093briefly the the 2030 district is working on that they have regular lunch and learns that's directed at the architect developer or contractor Community one problem is that a lot of development in Ann Arbor is being done by developers outside of Ann Arbor particularly the very large ones and so anything that we might do locally is not necessarily going to um do any kind of education or have a significant impact on an architectural firm in New York working in development with together with a big development firm in Chicago for example on a site here in Ann Arbor but it's it's this is this is definitely an issue and um I can send everything up something around later we had uh a presentation in energy commission meeting uh I think it was in September or October of
094last year we had a architectural firm and developer present projects that they've done uh in Pennsylvania and in the east coast and um they're doing all electric passive house certified projects at the same cost as code compliant projects and that's not just a sample size of three or five that was a sample of 260 selling developments so I'll send that to this group well thank you John um um normally you still have your hand up oh okay Shannon you have the floor um I just want to fill in folks a little bit on um and I don't know everything but on what's Happening like part of why the the meeting was canceled and things like that in terms of this moving forward I think that um staff has been stymied quite a bit in terms
095of their investigation with some of this and uh it's not coming as fast as they want to um I am really glad that in here you put this carrot and stick thing done because I I I'm I'm taking this back to Planning Commission with that in mind because I we're we're actively getting getting threatened with lawsuits now we're getting letters um as part of our um part of our uh you know communication package that comes from different home builders associations different people signing on to it different developers it's like it's just the list is getting longer and longer and so it is a real thing and we don't want to also just blow money by you know getting tied up in court with a bunch of this stuff too so you have to be prudent
096but I I think that it may be time to still keep that that goal in mind but to shift over to the carrot stick to the thing to just so that we can get something done because it just feels like the the larger um you know just banning all natural it just it's it's it's going to be very difficult and it feels like a hostile environment um with in terms of kind of what we're getting from the outside world um and uh so I'm really glad you put this together and I'm taking this back to Planning Commission in terms of in terms of that so I really appreciate you putting that time and energy into developing this thank you for your work on this yep thank you Shannon um Sarah you have your hand up
097you have the floor thank you um so I wanted to Echo echo of what Shannon said um I have been getting negative feedback from citizens on using the term ban um definitely like carrot and stick there's a lot of Environmental Policy precedent for that working um you know thinking of cap and trade and controlling sulfate that reduced acid rain output um so you know I've definitely like more of a carrot and stick person um and I've seen that work whereas the term ban I think does send red alarms and legally um seems like a little bit harder to pull off um so I would I would Echo that that's all thank you hey thank you uh Rita you have the floor just a question on um the timing issue so at one point there was
098a thought to have a a Time indicated on when this would be in effect so that it would be sort of ahead of the curve for um current projects that are in the pipeline and I just wonder if that's something that would be helpful in addition to the carrot and stick thing that could possibly be implemented now um like isn't there a point where we would say from this date forward we would have this expectation is there anybody that can answer that I don't know that I'm totally qualified to answer that but I think you you can't say like in anticipation of it has to be code and it's an enormously long and complicated process unfortunately um so it and and and just so you all realize too like any any what they call Planned
099development which is basically developers asking for kind of more than what is typical and and they're sort of public benefit involved in everything every one of those projects coming through now are all electric because they know that if we have any possibility to push them legally we we are in terms of getting them to perform and we've had quite a few of those but things that are quote by right we don't and we push them and we ask and we plead but we can't do anything about it and so we can't say like oh we think you know within a year it's going to happen I think word has traveled very quickly within the development Community about sort of what people can expect I know staff has been very good at alerting people as early
100in the process as they have the opportunity to because you know people don't come to them before they you know have any idea what they're doing and one of the things that is really tricky about this is that you know the kinds of projects that John is talking about in terms of um you know comparable costs you know all that sort of thing that's because from the very beginning the architect and designers and team is focused on that as the end goal and you've not added on later in the game right and that's that's why I was thinking sorry no no I know we just can't we can't code wise we just can't do that and I think again word is getting out that's why we're getting all these Olympics essentially from people the word
101is getting out but I I it's my understanding I'm not a planner but or a lawyer but it's my understanding that that we couldn't just kind of say we know it's going to be coming in a year and a half so get ready or something like that it really has to be vetted in code and that just takes an achingly a long time and it's very frustrating I think for many of us that want to be able to change things and you're talking state code or city code that's part of the issue is that we rely I think it's Michigan building code and not um National Building Code like Jerry was kind of alluding to and so you know right now there had I mean this I think should be one of the lobbying things
102that we talk about you know later today too is sort of how to deal with because it really has to happen at the state level it's going to be difficult to get that to happen um but it's yeah it it's that's one of the you can't start too early in terms of just getting that voice out there to be able to start to turn the conversation in that direction yeah it was already one of the primary asks of the the city council passed in last December to enable us to do that um so John you have your hand up yeah I just want to remind everybody that the ipcc issued a new report on Monday early reports um did never mentioned I'm stopping fossil fuel and burning and and development and now the last two
103reports have and they make it very explicit that we have to stop uh putting in assets that uh essentially lead to the burning of fossil fuels and what we're talking about um with all of this are fixed assets these are not it's not a matter of not doing something for a year and having a Year's loss of of emissions these are fixed assets that are going to be in place um in the case of furnaces and things like that 15 to 20 years and in the case of boilers and other things like that so many times these are in place for 50 70 years so um I think I understand and share Sarah's concerns that's why there is a statement in here Banning natural gas connections with extremely limited exceptions but I want everybody to
104realize why we're asking for this it's because the science tells us that we need to do this and remember the ipcc report is a consensus report of 195 countries so that means countries like Saudi Arabia and Russia and other there's the scientists are agreeing that we need to stop putting fixed Assets in place here here many other questions or comments okay so the question is um we should put this on the agenda for our next meeting as well in April I think given the given the urgency of the situation and the uh and the detergent nature of our political process Let's uh let's put it on the agenda for Let's uh put it on the agenda for a second reading and a vote uh for our next meeting okay does everybody agree with that okay
105all right thank you so let's move on to the next uh topic which is policy recommendations for 2024. um is every um as um everybody's seen how the city council passed a set of uh policy recommendations last December so we were just we were reviewed that um and um I think most of us have I hope and then we've we asked for questions for supplemental ones that might not have um shown up on that document so uh darma you have your hand up yeah I think that we skipped the pollinator habitat resolution oh my God you're right well I'm getting cross-eyed all right I'm sorry let's do the pollinator um sorry Rita let's get this uh I'll get that up on my screen thank you and thanks Dharma um I I just want to make
106sure it would be really great for us to go through this I want to first of all thank um my commission colleagues um Anya and Bridget and Dharma even though we haven't been able to make some of our meetings I know you've been a supporter of of us moving forward in a different way from what we did last year um we had a uh nomome project that that took place across the city that was very popular as you heard from one of our callers today and um the in the goal of this is to modify it based on some feedback that we've had from staff and also to make it um uh pollinator supporting resolution that addresses the kind of like the life cycle the seasonal life cycle of pollinators so that we we are
107talking about um spring activities but also fall where we talk about leaves um so that all of those things are are related uh important for supporting pollinator health and survival this is also presented in the interest of supporting the um the climate crisis because we also know that that pollinators are at risk and because of their importance in biodiver diversity we we do need to support them and so we can do many things here in the city and this resolution asks for that kind of support um that is my my general introduction if any of my colleagues Anya or Bridget would like to add something in particular I'd be happy to have your comments Tanya yeah I was just going to add that um that the intention of writing the resolution as it is is
108to sort of broaden it out so it's not just looking at sort of no Momo May it's more like year round and it's more than just not mowing it's sort of the bigger picture of sustainable sustainable Land and Landscape um management and written in a way that hopefully it gets approved it just is and doesn't have to be Revisited over and over um based on the season yeah and I should mention in this context that um uh this was ribbed in shorthand so when we're saying that Ann Arbor city council will do something where we really mean that we're going to ask city council to direct the city administrator to do something so um so just uh just in case somebody has a concern about that right now so um let's see we we do
109have quite a few resolve Clause here resolve Clauses here so um let's see um we could uh we should um I firmly believe that we should have a first reading of all of these and then come back with a better draft the next time um so hopefully we'll have time for this in the next uh um in the next month or two so I think the issue is we're trying to get this passed in time for spring which is already here as I as I'm reading this though I am noticing that this is written like a resolution that's ready for city council instead of uh a resolution that the environmental commission would pass um I wonder if we can make amendments yep we should be able to make amendments right now so yeah sorry I'll
110just say Steve I do have a version that has been amended um that I can share my on my screen uh okay well I'm going to stop sharing then Steve should we get uh a motion to uh consider and that formality get that out of the way yeah we can do that so do I have a motion to consider this resolution you know for discussion and a vote today John mursky and then Brooks Curtis seconded um all who approved say aye aye aye hands up um any nose I hear none so uh let's let's proceed with the discussion and um um the way I like to do these things is let's go through the resolve Clauses and fix them up and then go back and see if the whereas Clauses support are sufficient to support
111the resume the results clauses so um let's see let's can we do a global search to replace that uh the environment that uh the resolve that the environmental commission recommends that city council direct the city administrator um I guess this is not an editable copy is it it's a PDF file yes this is in PDF I can open a Word document so that we can make changes if that would be helpful oh yeah that would be very helpful okay let me give me a second hold that up sure yeah well at least doing that I mean we post these as PDF files and register before the meeting but uh but we'll need to include um you know a word file or some other word processing program version to do these edits so I I'm I'm
112proposing a friendly Amendment so we do that search and replace in the result clauses um is that uh do I have uh that was my motion that is there a second one about okay Shannon um seconds that so it's friendly unless someone objects yep I don't hear any objections [Music] so we'll go ahead progress and amendments to chapter 40 while we're waiting any news any news about that um Lisa do you have any uh do you know anything about those amendments with chapter 40. I I'm kind of the point person now and I've been talking with Sean and Missy but I basically I'm just trying to figure out what the next step is uh we want staff to be able to review it's going to take some time I think to work through and I'm
113just waiting to hear about next steps so as soon as I have them I will let you know yeah it's frustrating that it was lost to the legal department for a year yeah I probably should have gone through Staff first I think that's the issue yeah Steve sorry could you repeat what we are replacing with oh that the environmental commission um recommends City Council Direct uh direct the city administrator two or encourages you know to encourage yeah that's good all right so there were four of them and uh um we did have slightly different wording down here um in this resolved pause that Ann Arbor city council directs the city administrator to prepare um I assume here we're just adding on the environmental commission recommends that antibody okay while we're waiting can I tell you
114an interesting fact that I learned at a conference about pollinators which is that um our cities are actually doing better for pollinator habitat than rural areas are because of the incredible amount of pesticide use in farmlands so this is so important to make these kinds of changes happen within our city because they may become refuges so um thanks Shannon so let's see Rita you have your hand up and then John um no my hand is no longer up oh okay so John mursky then John caliber yeah I'm only going to repeat what I thought was a good suggestion that was given during public comment and something about uh maintaining uh seed heads uh and there was some comment about uh X number of days above 50 degrees and I think we might want to indicate
115something that that be for native plants I don't know that we want to do that for invasives or or other types of non-native plants so maybe that could be added somewhere into a resolve clause or added as a resolve Clause because it may be something specific and unto itself and not really fit with the other ones but I thought that was a good idea can I respond to that and maybe Rita might want to respond to that too but I'm wondering if that I mean I think the plan around this is to set a structure but there's going to be more detailed educational materials throughout the year and I'm wondering if that's better put in there than in this resolution but I guess that's up to you all if I may respond to that uh
116I think that that might be better and give us more flexibility as as we move forward because our goal is to prepare a communication plan and to work with staff on that so that we do have actually more than one way to provide education I'm hoping to the community um more than what we had available to us last year during the Nomo May period so I'm hoping I mean that's that's a big ask but yeah I think that that's the kind of detail that we would put in the materials so this is just a friendly question or a suggestion so pollinators don't adhere to City boundaries um so is there space in here for something about Regional cooperation or something with the state I know we may address this in the the policy discussion coming
117up but I'm just wondering about encouraging collaboration Regional collaboration hmm I think that's a great idea um I'm not sure exactly where to move it in well let's see what are the uh what are the what are the government agencies that would do that kind of thing I'm thinking about the Metro Parks County and the county or samcog and the road commission right yeah absolutely so do I have a proposal here do I have a proposal you say with in um in the middle of this this uh big resolved um and I already lost it okay so the pollinators working group of environmental commission with input from City staff and from Regional partners okay yeah right and then we'll seek them out foreign you have your hand up and then Dharma when Chris I just
118forgot to lower mine okay here's my last input so or any other friendly amendments suggested um I don't hear or see anything Chris you have your hand up Dharma well we have is this going to be first reading do I have some time to work on something before the next meeting yeah of course um or are you wanting this done today Rita it would be really great if we could move it to city council so that we're still in Spring unless uh let me look at Sean you know sort of like how do we get this moved out so that we start our communication process that's really um okay so the important thing could Chris make his suggestions to council members so that we approve it tonight and then it goes to them and then
119they may modify this anyhow yeah I think that's proven that's good so the subject area is native plantings um many of you know what a black swallowtail is I think they have three only species of native to this area plants that they rely upon to deposit their eggs to make caterpillars and then ultimately replace the pollinator stock if those native plantings aren't around you don't have black swallowtail butterflies and a lot of the pollinator enthusiasm um is related to planning non-native flowers that are gorgeous and draw lots of non-native bees and Pioneers Gather in there our native pollinators Gather in there but they do not lay eggs on those plants and so maybe one part of this could be some sort of manual simple manual that lists are great native pollinators bees and butterflies and
120these are the native plants that they need to reproduce and meanwhile feed birds [Music] um so I I don't know how to do that succinctly right off my hand but I if there's a way to beef up that one result Clause I'd appreciate it I can work on it so I'm I'm right I'm thinking that the kind of thing the beyond what you're suggesting Chris is in the range of the communication plan absolutely that we would want to have ongoing you know I hope that it change all the time actually and and reference to external um uh important groups that have good information well something like resolve that since native plants are vital to the maintenance of populations of native pollinators they are very important people to plant them and use them yeah that would
121be more properly in a warehouse Claus Chris I think whereas whereas ah okay let me up there something simple that a lot of people are not catching that it's the native plants that really we need to work at not just flowering Not Just Flowers so are people comfortable with the result Clauses as they're written um I wanna I did add in this uh the environmental commission recommends that in the final result because that was in Rita's um I don't know I uh thank you Sean okay has anybody has everybody had enough time well maybe this is where Chris's resolved goes right um so we've got this the reference to leaves so there could be one that's separate that's specific to the native plants and we if we put in something rough could that then go
122to city council for well we don't have to be we don't have to spell out all the details I think as long as it covers and it's six it should be succinct but accurate you know there we go so Dharma [Music] I think I'm getting a little bit lost so don't we already say in the result class that we're encouraging Property Owners to increase diverse native plantings it's right there right so so yeah okay I think I would just encourage that we don't try to put that we try to keep this I think like someone else is saying succinct and save the detail for educational promotional materials during the year yeah the starting resolution did have a lot more detail and then we worked with people to shrink it down because we figured we'll put
123all that information into the communication plan so okay so let's see Chris you have your hand up still and then Shannon sorry oh okay Shannon you have the floor um just briefly I I'm pretty comfortable with where this is one thing I just think that's worth um thinking about is kind of rebranding it um in terms of the Nomo May thing I just feel like um there's so much more we could do different than that and not mowing doesn't really do a whole whole lot to pollinators it's really like Willows and early blooming things that don't really bloom in lawns and so I would it's really catchy and other people are using it so I get that that is part of how you all continue forward I would just like to see you think about
124another snazzy name that maybe gets at it in a way that is more real and comprehensive because leaving up your dandelions doesn't but owners it really doesn't and that's really what came up in my yard by not mowing for a month so I would I mean to be perfectly honest and I had to mow it three times in order to be able to get it to get in control again and so there's that issue as well so I would really like to rethink that you don't have no no moment written in here which I was glad to see but as you all move forward with your educational stuff I challenge you to be able to come up with a really great slogan that doesn't tie you to something that is not as effective as it
125could be we are working on it and we are open to ideas great um well let's see so is everybody happy with the resolve Clauses now and um I hear I understand the pollinators work group worked on these whereas Clauses and that they have reduced them um appropriately and um let's just scan through those quickly from the top well let's see do how do we know that the city council recognizes that bees and other pollinators have they made a statement to that effect why don't we just save the environmental commission and yeah that we're set way we're safe yeah okay that sounds good uh second Clause any other comments for the first class about the second I think that's a pretty comprehensive list um okay how about the Third yep that's good uh has the
126city encouraged integrated Pest management practices we do have a web page shop about it the city does yep that's right um research suggests that bees and other pollinators make use of less intensively maintained lawn spaces I'm not sure what that means by less intensively maintained does that mean like not pesticides mowing it to one inch every week yeah like that was the terminology that was used yeah like no monocultures something like that okay um all right then and then reduced frequency of mowing has been shown to have a direct and indirect benefits to pollinator species including availability of more floral resources less production of emissions from fossil fuel powered equipment reduced noise from powered equipment reduce compaction of soil and Associated improved storm water infiltration uh yeah that seems pretty complete to me the next
127one is whereas research suggests that pollinators and other invertebrates rely on fallen leaves for covered insulation from the elements during winter months um that's a that's a great consideration as well um any comments so far the only thing with that one is that a big part of native b um egg laying in the winter is actually in the hollow stems of of native plants and so it might be nice to kind of put that in there it's not just the leaves aren't really a lot where the native bees lay their eggs it's more in the hollow stems yeah and so to put that in there also in the case that hey maybe I should leave my native grasses up through the winter um and so maybe there's a way to work that in yeah yeah
128let's put that that's definitely a major point yep that's excellent thanks Sean okay um everybody happy with that okay um now pollinators and floral resources have a positive relationship in which an increase in pollinator populations and increase the amount of Flora and vice versa now we can get rid of that terminal and all right so um any comments on that one um Lisa would it be accurate to say flora and food I mean human be and I'm not trying to be anthropocentric but people are self-interested oh yeah well that's true yeah food for birds and food for people oh um increase the amount of Flora and foods not committed to it just suggesting it I'd rather you know you all are I'd rather hear from the experts in this I like it but what is
129a pollinator working groups think anybody well there's okay I think we're good with that uh language thank you Gloria food and uh okay the last whereas Clause the Ann Arbor city council well that would be environmental Commission probably and then yeah yeah the environmental Commission Yeah well yeah thanks I think that seems to cover all the considerations um Lisa you still have your hand up to you okay all right so um um do I have a motion to close discussion seconded by um Bridget all right well let's bring this to a vote um do I have a motion to uh um let's see all who approve of this resolution is written uh please say I or raise your hand bye [Music] any opposed any abstentions okay so this resolution passes unanimously and uh so Sean
130would you please forward this to city council I will thank you all right thank you Sean thanks everybody so let's see let's move on to the next item on the agenda which is discussion or the policy recommendations for 2024. so um I can bring those up Sean if that's helpful and these are just um these are just suggestions that came through the working groups um so the floor is open to anything [Music] um but let's go through this systematically so we can try to be efficient um we've all read what the city we've all read what the city um Council passed in December and we've reviewed what the commission has proposed for prior years um so the idea here was that I think most of us support um the city care what the city council
131submitted in December but we we thought of some other things that we might um there would be important to protect the environment in Ann Arbor here so why don't we start off with natural features um I thought Chris do you want to go through this quickly oh and uh Brooks go ahead Brooks I will uh yeah go ahead uh so Chris I think you're the first one you should go through it because you understand that a lot more than I do so lots of folks understand what biodiversity means um in Practical terms as you look across the city or the state there are hot spots there are places where uh the hand of man has been limited and the ability of native ecosystems and Native species to thrive and survive and be sustained are better
132than most places in I thought it was 1988 but I guess Public Act 451 of 1994. asked the Department of Natural Resources to look at its entire landlord Holdings and identify those places in the name of um doing the best we can on a Statewide basis of protecting our our highly diverse native hot spots the department several years later got down the road quite a ways in fact I have the shape files of all the places they found and a senator from the up found out about this and amended the law and replaced it with something that has to do with deer management and I mean things like reporting numbers and whatnot it nothing to whatsoever to do with biodiversity and for the first time since then we have a legislature and a governor that
133and even a local Senator who's might who who is and they might be interested in Reviving that effort it would help us because a lot of the requirements of the statute were reporting and educating and trying to get people to understand um what these great natural areas are all about we have them here they're the natural is on our parks where where we have a range of of a hierarchy of of levels of diversity of native species um we could ask if the legislature would look into this again and try to restore the ACT um the second and I guess it hooks into our own climate efforts here um if we were to include work on biodiversity in in the city of Ann Arbor would hook into the conversations we were just having terms of
134educating people about Native species and all the life that depends upon native plants particularly um and uh it what Senator Cass person did was just a shame heads rolled into DNR he made them roll and I'm talking about the chiefs of divisions who were working on this he forbid the DNR from using the word biodiversity in any document and for any purpose or doing anything with regard to it as well as amending the law and essentially killing it um sushink was we had seen I had a conversation about it and she's interested so might see what happens the second suggestion I made and this comes from uh so many folks that I know who are Latino and and uh of various nationalities and uh you all may or may not know that the state of
135Michigan prohibits non-citizens or non -visa holders from getting a driver license that means a lot of people working in building and landscape and housekeeping and medical services on medical services are driving to work without a license I I can't imagine anything more ridiculous and again because our long-standing legislature has changed politically perhaps we can fix this problem one would require proof of residency in Michigan to get a driver's license clearly our local police are very nice as I understand it to these folks when they're stopped for some reason um I don't think they are down south but they shouldn't have to be out there driving in order to hold a job without a driver's license um lastly I speaking of biodiversity nothing could be more damaging to the existing biodiversity of the city of Ann
136Arbor than too many deer we really need to get back to this management of deer um okay thanks Chris um so these are all considerations for further discussion that uh at a future meeting so um um for solid waste um I think so John I think John mursky proposed this amendment to prevent organic waste disposal in landfills no no John I think I think these all John Calvert I think these came from me um so um I think it's important to encourage the state to restrict the sale of all packaging that includes intentionally added pfas chemicals because these contaminations um are are alarming they may soon prevent the recycling of plastics and toxic free composts for example Most states the many states in New England now uh have have stopped the land application of biosolids
137and composts that are contaminated with pfas uh which is an especially bad problem up there because of the how many paper mills there are in Northern New England so um the EPA has moved on drinking water regulations stricter drinking water regulations um this month and So within the next year or two we'll probably move on to Wastewater and biosolids and compost so I think it's important and and bills bills to do this have been passed in other states and they have been drafted by uh Jeff Irwin is one of the sponsors of these bills that were submitted over the last four years in the state legislature but they went nowhere and this is another opportunity where now that we have a change in leadership we may get at least a hearing we might at least
138get a public hearing and a committee in the state legislature on these and and maybe move some legislation forward that might protect the city's budget and the public health um and it's the same consideration with amending part 115 because organic waste disposal and landfills only creates masking it's better disposed of and now and as a as a compost within a compost um because um this is the point is that if there is too much pfos in VAR solids and compost they will end up in hazardous wastelandfills not even irregular landfills so the cost of the city's budget will could become quite High um so in terms of water quality um let's see Sarah and I contributed something to this so Sarah do you want to go over the water quality yeah um so I think
139um reinstating Eagles rulemaking authority to part four of the water quality standards would be helpful to the city um so a lot of things have kind of been set in stone since the rule making Authority was um declined no longer able to change and update to View's best available science um and a lot of our water quality standard derivation um so like one example is for pfos compounds we have you know single criteria for each dfos um whereas you know the state could look at viewing them as a class so it allowed it would allow like more um flexibility and how different regulations are applied which could be useful for water treatment plants things like that um so I think this is a really important thing for the city to get behind um and then
140the second one on here is to ban the use of perk in dry cleaning so some of you might be familiar with the arm and cleaner site in downtown Ann Arbor there was a perk release back in the 80s and the company continued to use perk for many years um and it was unclear we weren't able to determine whether the plumes were combined or not so there was still an ongoing relief um so perk is uh very toxic it causes indoor air Vapor concerns to human health and long term it's a carcinogen um so getting this out of the dry cleaning business protects you know the workers at the dry cleaning business you know people who get their clothes dry cleaned don't have the chemical on their body there's so many benefits to doing this
141um I think it would be silly for the city to not support um so those are my two and if you guys have questions let me know yep um thank you uh uh Rita or somebody from the pollinators group wants to talk about these any volunteers hi I'll try can you hear me yeah okay um but I welcome China in from any of the others and I apologize for my losses of contact um so the pollinator group put these together um to talk about focusing on at the state level on mandating integrated Pest Management the goal is to reduce use of pesticides overall second line Banning sale of seeds specifically treated with neonatinoid pesticides that's one of the reasons that farm fields are so toxic to pollinators uh and to prioritize the use and maintenance
142of native plants we set in Highway rights of way they could be in many public spaces in particular and encourage private use of of native plants as well so it's it's like reduced pesticides improved habitat is the main goal of these and I welcome comments from um Bridget Anyan Dharma thanks hey thanks everybody I think it's um I think it would be useful if we could direct um because this document is for the city's higher lobbyists so if we could direct these to specific bills um I think it would be it would help facilitate their engagement that's that's just a opinion of mine um so um and and I have more information about prayer and many of these other things as well if anybody's interested so uh so let's see so um I'm thinking about
143how to proceed with this I think given the hour and everything I think uh um I think let's uh table this until the next meeting so let's all think about it for a month or two and then um and then have some specific more specific proposals to submit and uh and uh prepare a resolution Bridget a quick question uh commissioner call Awards sent some really useful um laws in other states that that might pertain to some of these pollinator suggestions we had is that helpful to include that in something like this are you think saying Michigan um when you say direct the lobbyist to um I think well um well my understanding is that this document is really the city hires lobbyists both I assume that the federal and the state level but most of
144the comments I've ever seen are directed to the state legislature yeah sorry I make questions confusing I guess I mean State Legislature two examples of good policy in other states that would meet these suggestions [Music] but I think we can add some more detail to make it more to facilitate um better yeah yeah I think it would help just to make it a really specific ask it's always good to have a more specific and ask as you can have and also you know point to um I recommend people to look at um uh there's a website called safer States which uh tracks bills bills that are on different topics that are submitted in different uh and in state legislators on different topics so I'd like you you want to go to that website and you
145can say well what laws on pfos have been passed and so they have a map and then you can click on each state and see what they are and so you can find plenty of um you know model laws in other states um for these for these uh for these issues you know we're not exactly the leaders and the best in this category so Chris you have your hand up and then darma yeah a couple questions about the two Solid Waste items I I was on the impression for quite some time it's been [Music] uh not kosher to take wood and brush and landscape materials into the landfills [Music] so what you're talking about here is food waste yeah yeah it's not yeah I have to refine that myself you know I'll work on that
146myself that's one of the things I need to work on and then I'm don't we want to go further than just packaging for pfas chemicals don't we really want to get a lot more serious about not producing them and using them period well yeah I mean the state of Maine has already done that as part of an extended producer responsibility law an epr law and the state of Maine has done that and that's something we should shoot for but this is something that might be more possible so you're right I think it's probably better to be more ambitious and then reduce the scope of it later my thoughts thank you yeah thanks um let's see uh let's see Dharma you you had your hand up yeah preemptively taking it down so I didn't forget um
147I appreciate the suggestion for specificity because I think it is helpful I mean the thing I think to remember is that this is going to go to the policy committee that we have and it will help them understand it better if we can connect it to things and to that point just a little Googling you can often find things that speak to like I just started looking at pollinators you know there are bills that get introduced all of the time that you know didn't pass in some cycle but they exist um and I've noticed that with examples of things that we have in our current adopted uh Statewide policy plan is that there have been things that have pushed been introduced before that they would like to bring back to pass so for example I
148just found the Michigan house bill 48.95 that specifically is about pesticides and pollinators um so I would just suggest there probably is a single source for all of these house bills that have been introduced but um it might be worth pointing to one of those if it speaks to what's wanted and how much supportive information would with the council policy committee appreciate receiving that's a good question but I would say at least like being able to reference a house bill like for example you have a water quality support HB 4083 to you know that's what I mean kind of like what you were saying I'm just saying that like in a lot of cases they're actually have been things that have been introduced they just haven't been passed before so yeah that makes it easy
149I think because you know what can happen is then you can you can see who is a co-sponsor of that bill and then you can and then the uh the city's lobbyists can go and talk to that person who had previously co-sponsored the bill or sponsored it yeah okay well let's all keep that in mind and then uh refine these and then bring them to and then have the working groups bring us to the to the next uh to to the to the earliest future commission meeting where we can fit in the schedule okay because Dharma when would the uh the policy doc policy committee is already finished what they're going to do for this year is that correct or yeah for but but it's coming up now because as I like the cycle is
150not usually December and January we did that because again the change in the legislature we Revisited so it's once a year normally I think Sean we had talked about this before what the cycle is of when we need to get it to them and I don't remember what it was uh I believe it might have been March 31st okay so as soon as possible so we should do okay well all right so we're running out of March so okay so uh why don't all the working group leaders try to get to try to get this spiffed up and uh let's just um send it to the council policy committee as information yeah not as a resolution or because we have to we have to actually pass a resolution and get counsel to to consider it
151and then usually and then Council assigns it to the policy committee so it's a it can be a Securities process I think actually what happens with these and again maybe uh council member Tish or Sean couldn't correct me if I'm wrong but I think what happens is that the Committees uh vote on a set of policies to push forward it gets included in the council packages when you do that I don't think Council really takes an action it goes directly to this policy making committee they kind of work in refine and then they bring something back to council that's all of it awesome that's good news that's good news so let's all try to get the information through the council policy committee through Dharma yeah bye no I think you gotta we have to pass
152something is that right Sean we have to I believe that it gets attached as a memo uh to the meeting minutes from a meeting which in this case would be this meeting so I think that requires a formal action of this body to do that okay well I don't feel like it's ready so um so um what should we do y'all any suggestions work on it tomorrow Steve yeah that's all we can do is work on it some more um and so I mean just as an aside here I am working with a group that's uh working on the polluter accountability Act to try to get a polluter accountability act it used to be called polluter pays but we've already decided to call it polluter accountability and the fact is that the um you know
153that the uh the legislature does have a more friendly structure uh you know leadership now but the the maturity is very very slim so nothing's going to happen without any without bipartisan support and so and um and most of the activity in the legislature is doing so far is not related to the environment they're going to try to they're I think we have time because I'm just saying that the legislature probably won't take up a lot of these things um seriously until next year until 2024. so that's all that's that's all um that's all I have to say on that so um all right well thank you everybody this is a good exercise and let's let's keep at it all right so the next item on the agenda is reports from committees other commissions Council
154and chair you have anything from Solid Waste uh just a couple of quick updates we've got a meeting of the larger uh zero waste group coming up later this week and then next month we've got uh the students the from U of M will be presenting on April 13th as part of their class project and then we're also working for them to present their work to City staff uh later in April to OSI and Public Works great John um are you um are you are you going to circulate that report how how would the Commissioners be able to see that report yeah we can certainly do that it'll be added to the U of M library um collection so it'll all be digital so I can just share that link once it's ready yeah that'll
155be great um so then is that it for solid waste yes okay so then water quality I don't have anything to report right now um pollinators nope I think you heard a big uh update from us uh that we've been working on the uh the pollinator resolution you saw tonight and we will be continuing on our educational materials okay great now natural features um we asked up to the channels how the members of the environmental commission will participate in the master plan consolidation process with regard to natural features master plan haven't heard back yet I assume will be included in there'll be meetings and whatnot going on forward and from that we'll see what the natural features committee does quickly on that uh the natural features group is invested literally hundreds of hours in various
156drafters uh ordinances and and I'd like to get clarity on what where these are going and it's awfully late tonight but maybe we can set aside some time in our next meeting to really we give Clarity to to the commission and to the natural features working group uh on what what's are these going to be round filed or black hole or are they going in somewhere and where how are they gonna what's the process going to be that these um are somehow addressed it to me it's not clear that we've been yeah I'll leave it at that well no thanks John yeah we're it's not clear I mean these have been worked on for years I mean there's been hundreds and maybe thousands of uh of man hours or you know I have to working
157hours put in uh to these over the last five to ten years and so uh um City staff just to let everybody know City staff decided that they weren't going to really look at those they were just going to fold them into the comprehensive plan so but we have no idea how that's going to happen because as far as I know they still haven't officially selected you know a consultant to work on the comprehensive plan Lisa they they have they have selected a consultant okay um and as you know there are rules set by the Michigan planning enabling Association [Music] or whatever it is there are um and there are rules about uh what sort of public engagement goes into a comprehensive uh goes into revising on an element of the comprehensive plan so whatever
158um the natural features group puts forward needs to go through that practice of of public engagement um that's just kind of the way revising a comprehensive plan goes so [Music] um I'm sure that you'll hear from uh from staff um in terms of how you can be engaged in this process as well and um you know I'm sure that you know the work will be taken seriously but it but we but a commission's work can't substitute for the work that needs to be done through the comprehensive planning process [Music] so okay it's a mix right in my tulip uh the request was to be at the table in the comprehensive planning process not as a general public but as environmental commissioners one of whom was instrumental in writing the original natural features master plan 20
159years ago it's not in the Wheelhouse of planners and maybe not in the Wheelhouse of the consultant they hire to know what to do about natural features um where we there are a lot of plans and consultants and things that happen in the city of Ann Arbor frankly that get done then they go to the public and there's not much motion after things go to the public um I you know uh as a long time participant in this area it really matters what happens to the natural features master plan if it is to be as you say the guideposts for what we do about natural features going forward we need to be at the table in the discussions of making that master plan not Theta comply afterward and we are we are part of it
160we are a part of the city government system we are although we don't have official responsibilities or any Authority but we are a part of of the city's government and we also our bylaws specify that we can hold public hearings on various topics outside of our regular meetings so uh I just want to remind everybody of that fact so um it would be good to um it would be good to hear what's going on I mean so far you know we've we've communicated with Mr dehoney our concerns but we have not heard anything back yet so um I think it would be it would be very it would be good to know um when we might hear something back you know you know I'm not I don't feel comfortable pressing him right now he's in
161the middle of a three-quarter of a million dollar brush cleanup effort maybe in schedule um and we're entering into the budget you know budget negotiations oh I understand no no I understand I think we we all we all need to be patient but um I know you've been really patient and I know this is very I I understand the frustration or perhaps I don't understand it because I can't possibly appreciate what it feels like to invest it as much invest as much as you have so I mean when next I meet with him which I'm not sure when it's going to be because I can't make my regular meeting um I can ask him if you know if he can share any thoughts or if he were you know who who's going to respond to
162you all yeah yeah just a little general reminder is all you know and the thing is see that um you have to understand that a lot of these feelings come from what happened with those chapter 40. revisions that just disappeared into the legal department for a year you know so uh we we should get more turnaround time we should get her be able to get a quicker turnaround time than that eventually but um yeah okay Lisa I agree that's that's good that's a good I would guess the critical juncture comes when a consultant is in fact hired and then starts to work that would be the time to include us and I think that's Mr Leonard's decision not Mr ponies well I I I have that same feeling any other comments on that issue I
163mean this speaks to this speaks of course to other uh concerns that I hear not just in this forum but um you know about transparency and key performance indicators and and transparency and the way the city government is run so I don't expect a conversation with this but I'm just saying that it touches on that as well so um so if are there any other uh comments on this okay so um let's see let's move on to other commissions let's see energy John energy connection yeah I'm sorry about that uh we've been dealing in the energy commission with the same resolutions and topics that we've been discussing here Equitable engagement the same resolutions the only thing that we did that we haven't considered here was that we provided input on the council resolution to advance
164energy equity and resilience and that's open for um I think Council to finalize and act on um other than that there's really nothing new um one thing Steve your comment just recently both the energy commission as well as last year the environmental commission passed resolution on uh performance transparency and um I don't know if either of the council member Liaisons are willing and able at this point in time to comment on what's going to happen with those resolutions uh if they can't do so tonight it would be appreciated if they could do so at the next meeting hey thank you so um let's see so let's do planning next uh we've only had one meeting since our last one we had same Equitable engagement thing and um we passed several projects none of which have
165like a lot of direct influence but there's just one thing I would suggest and that is that we passed the um the Ann Arbor Housing commission's Catherine project near Kerrytown and you know since they have committed to doing and know all electric building and things like that there was a very candid conversation about what has been like for them to be able to try to do geothermal and things like that and John I would suggest that you actually watch the last chunk of the meeting which went very late that we were up till probably 11 30 or something like that because there's some really good um just reality checks about kind of some of the challenges that they're having with how much geothermal they're needing where they have the space to put it and not
166and things like that um that I think would be important and interesting for for energy commission folks to just here's an example in our regulatory system with our staff review and all those kinds of things to see what that how that's actually panning on I don't think Shannon yeah I would do that um what date was that meeting this is our last one on on Tuesday so it would have been the 21st yeah the 21st okay yep that's why District geothermal is so important because if you do it parcel by parcel it makes it really difficult yeah agreed yep it's much more cost effective all right so um let's see so uh Ann Morrison is not here so Parks advisory um will not helpful report how about transportation Dharma yeah excited to let you know
167that um we are adding shared e-bikes to our contract with spin so those should show up in the city soon um they spin has done a good job of basically kind of keeping their scooters from being nuisance objects and so that's what's up to this move we're going to try for a hundred we used to have a bike sharing program but it unfortunately didn't work very well and it went away so we haven't had one since 2017 and I think the dockless nature of this obviously there can be concerns about where people leave them but assuming that it works as well as the scooters it can also just up the convenience and accessibility and there's a lot of equity things built into this new agreement including I think half price rates for people below means
168including people that live in housing projects affordable housing projects and people that don't have Banks they can get a special card so they don't have to use a smartphone um the other thing was that we sent a couple of letters for Congressional funding requests and one of that was for upgrading our Crossing um Crossings at crosswalks um to make things safer and then another thing is to reinvestigate a new train station so this is not Reviving The Old idea but starting again and this again is just asking for our Senators for federal dollars to do that so that's my update oh um I just had one question are they is there been any talk of including cargo bikes no thank you very much I haven't heard that yet no that would be cool people are
169going shopping they you know because a lot of times that what's that's what makes the choice between a car and a bike is yeah put stuff on it and I don't know exactly the configuration of these but they look pretty hefty maybe they have a basket on them I'm not sure yeah okay just a thought um so how about um so let's move on to council uh any report from Council um Lisa I mean as you know um Council discussed 415 West Washington on Monday night for the and it passed on first reading there will be a second reading and a public hearing um sometime sometime in April uh and uh I don't know I'm actually I was actually just looking in my notes from our let's see no that meeting was actually right we
170just met uh so I mean environmental commission just met so I don't think that there was anything other than that um but uh councilmember Ackman if you have a better memory than me please kick in I can't think of anything else now all right thank you so the chair has nothing more to say so let's move on to the next item which is a report from staff oh yes I'm council member this the process for 415 West Washington is the council is passing a resolution that asks for a proposal I I can't find any drawings or anything I need track it to see how it okay yeah so um this process like the process for the um for the building that is going up on the former y lot um this process has been to
171pre-entitle um a site and it comes to us not with a site plan but with a concept plan this kind of PUD could come either way either with a site plan or with a concept plan we don't want to have a site plan because that's extremely prescriptive and we're what the idea is is that the city is shopping out this concept plan which has all those supplementary regulations of PUD all the things that we want in the building shopping it out to developers to see who will step up and take on the project um commissioner gabrandel do you have any corrections that you would like to make to what I just said okay and um as you know um if if we do not pursue this course which enables the cleanup to occur through a
172Brownfield tax credit if we do not pursue this course then the city will have to bear the cost of demolishing the existing building improving the storm water um what shall we say it would probably be detention and infiltration on that site um and doing the cleanup and it is expected that this site can be cleaned up there there is not as much remaining material on it as there are on some other places I think probably 721 maybe a dirtier site so it is expected to be able to be cleaned but without the use of the Brownfield Tiff which that money the city cannot access on its own behalf the funding for this would have to come out of the general fund and the only way for it to come out of the general fund is
173at the cost of other things that people want the city to take on or that the city is currently doing so this is why the city is taking the approach of selling this site to a private developer and pursuing the cleanup in this way it's not necessarily affordable housing you're inviting We cannot put affordable housing on this side that's uh no I mean it well it's it's next to a train track um right as part of the Brownfield um it can 15 either on-site or payment in lieu can be done but it can't be done with either federal funds or um or sustainability millage funds so whatever affordable housing were to go there would have to be uh worked through the Brownfield Tiff requirements um because there's no other way to subsidize it and I
174would I mean in my ideal World probably a payment in lieu would be better for this site but I think some community members really felt that I mean it is a great you know it's walkable it's marvelous I mean unfortunately we have a lot of affordable housing going up in the downtown core so um I don't think it it would be a terrible thing not to have it here but again it just we we have no way of subsidizing it through our own fun through uh you know through tax credits or even our own millage funds on this site my last question is has anyone done a serious cost estimate for what the expense of the city would be for us to clear and clean that site yes yes what is the number it is
175in the millions the cleanup itself is not the biggest cost the storm water rectification and the dismantling of this building which probably has asbestos in it or ten uh the report that I read said in the millions so I don't think it means 10 but it doesn't really matter because the general fund does not have a surplus of any Millions and so this would have to be we would have to say what we want to not do well we did get a 25 million dollar gift from the federal government didn't we just recently not to clean up this site and you know as far as I know we've spent we've allocated all those monies in a lot of worthy ways yeah I know I mean so I mean I think yeah thank you for not
176being affordable housing I appreciate that well thanks Lisa that was um okay so um let's move on to report from staff yes thank you um as many of you uh likely noticed uh we are doing things a little bit different uh starting this month uh I have been working with staff to put together a written update uh that will be what we do from here on out um so in the interest of time I will say that uh the updates can be found in that written document but I will very briefly go over the highlights uh the free tree giveaway um from OSI is planned for April 30th uh we are also helping to organize the Ann Arbor Earth Day celebration which is going to be held on Sunday April 23rd uh a20 week is
177also coming up from June 4th to 10th and we are looking for ideas for events or that um from the public works department uh they are move in move out drop-off event will be taking place at the end of April and in early May uh the commercial Solid Waste franchise contract is going to city council for approval uh and public engagement meetings around the drop-off station design will be held on April 13th and April 19th uh and finally from systems planning staff have started uh working on the source water protection plan project which they anticipate to take around a year to a year and a half and like I said you can find more details on all those updates in the written update document all right thank you Sean um Chris you have your hand
178up it's behind uh it's behind a tulip Sean you can knock my hand out of this guy anytime you want to yeah it's behinding behind buying one of your tulips there so um Okay so see the next is items for next agenda so I have the natural gas resolution and the uh um let's see and uh and uh of course the solid waste activities update and discussion on the solid waste budgets this is when staff is going to explain their budget their spending on various Solid Waste activities and um tell us a bit about their budget ask for them for the next budget cycle um that's going to be the major thing so hopefully we can get through the natural gas resolution um and uh in an effective and uh expedited manner um and then
179in may we have uh nap in the green belt a review of nap and Greenbelt activities and focusing mostly on invasive plants invasive plants so um and then meanwhile we have the floodplain um the floodplain concerns continuing so we'll try to fit that in somewhere soon as soon as possible are there any other suggestions for um Lisa yeah I don't know if if we can add this to the solid waste evening but as Sean just mentioned um city council actually approved the commercial experience was um Solid Waste franchise I I think it would be interesting if they you know even just spent five minutes and explained to us what that is you know what the hopes are for that uh how that's expected to change anything if anything I mean the franchise was rewarded to
180the company that's been providing the service already so but it is a restructuring and I think not much is known about that um or not I don't mean it in the sense if it's some big secret I just think it's a shift and it might be interesting to hear a little bit more about that if no one else shares that then um I I know I'll be talking to them anyway but I thought you might be interested oh absolutely um absolutely you know that the downtown alleys problem has been a big sore spot for for many many years so I'm going to be it'd be good to have that should definitely be included and that's part of the asking was to review so it's going to be a full meeting you know I was hoping
181the whole meeting would be dedicated to Solid Waste but um things are uh now time is catching up so um um so I would encourage everybody to look at that at what's publicly posted and on that topic before the next meeting and uh we'll get we'll get information from City staff you know provided before the next meeting so um let's see any more comments about that no so uh the next scheduled meeting will be on April 27th uh 2023 it's it's um so the next item on the agenda is the second opportunity for public comment this is a an opportunity for persons to speak for up to three minutes so please call please call 877-853-5247 and enter meeting ID 922-9696-1644 and this information is also displayed on the meeting agenda and video feed City staff
182will select callers that have raised their hand one by one using the last three digits of your phone number in order to electronically raise your hand to indicate the desire to speak please press star 9 on your phone you will hear an automated announcement that the host is allowing you to speak when speaking please move to a quiet area and mute any television or background sounds so that we may hear you clearly please state your name and address at the beginning of your comments and be patient there's a delay of up to 30 seconds before a connection is established so while we're waiting we do have uh braced hand already Steve okay well let's put them on all right um uh caller with number ending in three four five you should be allowed to speak
183now 515 Crow Street in the Fifth Ward um I was originally going to just encourage you to please uh put forward a resolution um about the flood plain and you know I've been getting a little frustrated uh listening and I'm not really calling it to scold you because I understand there are a lot of things going on I mean I mind boggled by the lack of transparency and how the natural features swing got stuck in the attorneys I mean wow I'm learning a lot now but one thing I do know is that climate change is real the planet is burning up it's flooding there's no time to waste here you can't just put things off until next year please how about a resolution regarding floodplains and no building on flood Plains I mean really think
184about it you're the environmental commission okay then I also want to comment on 415 West Washington and what council member dish was saying no there definitely cannot be any affordable housing it will be payment in lieu by a developer because even Jennifer Hall who is kind of a affordable housing said it can't be because it's on a flood plain there are a lot of rules against the speaking of rules that I heard mentioned before all these rules well that's a rule all right and also um there is some money to be had to clean up the toxins we can't wait years until some developer decides they want that there are lots of Hoops to jump through for developers we can't wait years there are poisons in the ground now they are spreading the city is
185the responsible party and the DDA has lots of money they have millions and I heard from my Council Representatives that the cost of the cleanup would be between one and three million so it's not anywhere near 10. it's between one and three why can't the DDA put in some money and what about those arpa funds I think cleaning up taxes in our environment that is spreading is of utmost importance I'm sorry I sound cranky but I I'm just mind-boggled that everybody seems to think there's lots of time no rush this is imperative it needs to be cleaned up now it's important you're the environmental commission please push for this to be cleaned up now and for anybody that doesn't know what's happening on 415 West Washington I encourage you to learn there have been articles
186on MLive just go it's been discussed in front of city council for years educate yourselves please if you don't know what the city is planning to put on that flood Fringe with all those taxes please please please and we can't wait for a developer to clean up this mess it has to be cleaned up now the DDA has money there's arpa funds what could be more important than cleaning up toxins that are going to harm our residents okay thank you very much thank you for all you do I just wish you could move a little more quickly thank you um well thank you for your input Miss Khan so um anybody uh anybody else Sean uh yes we have a caller with a phone number ending in zero one two again that's zero one two
187you should now be able to speak yes hello um this is Muffy McKenzie calling again and I I too am calling um just about the last comments that uh councilman dish just made about um that the the cost um it we've never had um public factual numbers uh we got we got the one to three million uh from our council person um uh and then to say that of the 25 million it was spent on you know uh I've forgotten the word that you used um you know important projects I honestly believe that uh cleaning up toxins in a flood plain should be maybe top priority for our community um it was the city in the county who um dumped those toxins so it should be the city and the County's responsibility to clean them
188up and not to defer the responsibility to uh possible would be maybe not would be developer and I just would really um plead for all of you to consider putting um you know a resolution to to a clean up the toxins and B not to build in the flood plain as um our brilliant uh City floodplain manager I'm sorry I don't know his his title but Jerry had very emphatically said not to build there so I don't understand why nobody's listening to him thank you very much and I appreciate that it's a very long meeting tonight and I appreciate all your hard work and your diligence good evening thank you for your input Miss McKenzie anybody else Sean yes we have um a caller with a number ending in four six four again that is
189car ending in four six four you should be able to speak now oh hi can you hear me yes we can thank you oh thank you this is Linda Brower again um okay this was a great meeting long meeting I want to encourage you next month with no further delay to pass some kind of resolution about gas hookups in in new construction I think it's it's really we can't wait any longer I hope you do that I think in environment energy commission already did it or they will and I'm hoping with those two recommendations that somebody on Council will bring those recommendations forward for debate at the council table it's really important you you know why people have spoken about why so I won't go into that I also want to urge you to develop
190a resolution following our floodplain managers device for no new construction in city-owned partials in the flood plain for all the reasons that Jerry explained and it may be too late for 415 West Washington but there are other city-owned Parcels in the floodplain like 721 North Main and maybe it's not too late for 415 West Washington because it will take a while before a developer is identified if one is because it's such a challenging property we shouldn't be building on it as environmental commissioners I think I'm hoping that you will be open to the logic of why we shouldn't build on it I think many people in City leadership have a hard time understanding why it's not advisable but I'm hoping that if you can put forth a resolution that they will listen to you because
191your environmental Commissioners that the last thing I want to say I was very happy to hear the beginning tentative beginning of a discussion about the problems that many times commissions are ignored these are hard-working citizens I've been on commissions I know how hard you guys work and often your your sideline just like what happened with the natural features thing and I am worried it's going to happen with many things that you advise and we need to look into that and I'm hoping that council members will look into that and find a way to actually start listening more to commissions and and heeding their advice or at least discussing their advice what happened about the natural features is really a shame I know people have been working on it for three years and it's it's too
192bad it took three years but um you're being sidelined and I don't think that's right there are things that are going forward despite the fact that our comprehensive plan hasn't been updated tc1 zoning was developed and passed they didn't have to wait until our comprehensive plan why should a natural features ordinance update have to wait till our comprehensive plan there's a reason for that and I hope that you will not take no for an answer I hope that you will push more and I appreciate people who talked about transparency tonight there was a I think it was the energy commission that passed a transparency resolution about our a20 efforts and I it was passed unanimously and I still cannot believe that the one council member on that body voted no and this is a problem
193we need more transparency we need counsel to pay more attention to the experts on the different commissions and thank you for your work and I just please hope that your voices are heard more thank you so much oh thank you for your comment Miss Brauer anybody else on the line uh no one else currently has a hand raised okay all right well um in that case considering it's 10 14 I'm going to declare this meeting adjourned thank you okay let's let's think about building our agendas without an hour and 15 minutes over it I think that we just had too much going on on this agenda and there were a lot of controversial topics we didn't know how many people are going to call in I get that I also just we crammed in too
194much so yeah tomorrow I'm screwed tonight you know so I would really like to be able to just be more mindful about this for the future thank you yeah yeah I agree yep I'll try all right thank you everybody