001hi Steve um I just got a call from Steve and he is having internet problems so I'm gonna kick off the meeting um as Vice chair uh and I will say thanks everyone for joining uh on this delayed meeting that we had to reschedule because of weather and I'm going to ask Sean to call the roll um should we start with a land use statement Rita okay but I'm just following the agenda it says call to oral call to order yes thank you and statement go ahead uh I acknowledge that the land the city of Ann Arbor occupies is the ancestral traditional and contemporary lands of the anishinabe including Odawa Ojibwe and badawami and Y and peoples I further acknowledge that our city stands like almost all property in the United States on lands obtained
002generally in unconscionable ways indigenous peoples The Taking of this land was formalized by the Treaty of Detroit in 1807. knowing where we live work study and recreate does not change the past but a thorough understanding of the ongoing consequences of this past can Empower us and our work to create a future that supports human flourishing and justice for all individuals thank you Sean and I guess I should say um this is being videotaped and I don't see our phone number that we would ordinarily use to announce to the public if anyone wanted to call in do you have that Sean pull that up really quickly if you have it on the agenda here and I'll just say that I'll paraphrase our statement that we are holding this meeting remotely because of covid we've been authorized
003to have remote meetings in this public way and we um encourage and welcome people to call in if they need to if they would like to make a statement um and to the environmental Commission thanks okay and the numbers uh yes I have that sorry Rita I'm back oh good I see you yeah I think I just got my internet back so I can take over from here and I can read the statement thank you full statement if you like uh sorry uh Welcome to the and March 10th 2020 23 electronic meeting of the environmental commission this meeting is in accordance with executive orders from the governor to affect social distancing and mitigate the spread of the covid-19 virus we intend to conduct this meeting similarly similarly to an in-person meeting however please be patient
004and through our technical issues public comment will be via telephone only to speak during any of the public comment opportunities please call 877-853-5247 or three one two six two six six seven nine nine and enter meeting ID 963-9100-2023 this information is also available on the published agenda and the Public Notices section of the city website and on the broadcast of this meeting on CTN Channel 16 at T channel 99 and online at www.a2gov.org watchctn all right thank you sorry so uh so have you done the roll call yet not yet okay is that the land Heritage statement oh yes we did do the line Heritage statement okay thank you so um um let's do the roll call Sean sounds good all right uh council member Ackman uh chairperson Brown president in Ann Arbor thank you
005uh commissioner Keller work here thank you uh commissioner Curtis here thank you uh commissioner Dale question thank you council member dish present in Chicago thank you commissioner Gabe Randall here in Ann Arbor thank you commissioner Graham yeah Ann Arbor thank you uh commissioner Gruber here in Ann Arbor thank you commissioner Merson right uh commissioner mursky you're participating from my home here in Ann Arbor thank you uh Vice chairperson Mitchell you're an Ann Arbor thank you uh commissioner nedric president and Ann Arbor thank you commissioner Oriole here in Ann Arbor thank you and commissioner Wayne all right uh and that is a quorum thank you Sean the next item on the agenda is the approval of this agenda um do I have a motion to approve it consider it uh John mursky seconded by Anya Dale
006um let's open the discussion um are there any proposed amendments to the agenda or Corrections hearing and see none I uh um let's bring it to a vote all who approve of the agenda as submitted please raise your hands and say yay and all those who uh any knows any abstentions I hear and see none so it's accepted as submitted unanimously uh the next item on the agenda is the approval of our minutes from the last meeting January 26th um let's see do I have a motion to review those minutes uh anybody uh John mursky Anya Dale again okay um uh for discussion are there any uh proposed uh changes to the minutes as drafted AI here and see none um so this closes the discussion so all who approve of the minutes as as
007drafted please raise your hand or say aye all right uh on any news any abstentions uh hearing and Cena I'm sorry I Heard a Voice I'm just abstaining because I wasn't there oh okay thank you Bridget so Bridget's abstaining um so the motion passes uh by a majority um so let's see uh this so this uh the next item on the agenda is the first uh period for public commentary um this is an opportunity for persons to speak for up to three minutes please call 1-888-788-0099 and enter meeting ID 963-9100-2023 this information is also displayed on the meeting agenda and video feed City staff will select callers that have raised their hand one by one using the last three digits of your phone number in order to electronically raise your hand to indicate your desire
008to speak please press star nine on your phone you will hear an automated announcement that the host is allowing you to speak when speaking please move to a quiet area and mute any television or background sound so that we may hear you clearly please state your name and address at the beginning of your comments and be patient there can be a delay of up to 30 seconds before a connection is established so do we have anybody on the line as yet Sean uh we do not okay so we'll wait 30 seconds uh is there anybody on the line yet Sean there is not okay uh well this ends the first period of public commentary there will be a second opportunity at the end of the meeting um the next item on the agenda is unfinished
009business and there is none uh listed so let's proceed to new business and the first item is a presentation of the Equitable engagement report yes I believe we have Michelle Bennett here today instead of Heather instead of uh okay now welcome to the commission Michelle thank you good morning Commissioners thank you so much for letting me join your meeting um I am going to share my screen to start how is that working what what do you all see if I see your screen okay fantastic okay my name is Michelle Bennett I am a community engagement specialist with the city of Ann Arbor that's in the systems planning unit in full transparency my colleague Heather safarth started this initiative and led it uh for the 18 months I joined over the summer so I spent the
010last six months working on this project with her and with the steering committee so I'm here to present about the process um the the project Ames and uh some of the findings from this initiative so broadly speaking the aim of this project was for the city to work with a steering committee to figure out what Equity means and how to translate that into policies guidelines and practices that as staff we can Implement to achieve our goals of being more inclusive in our engagement efforts um before we launched this project the staff did quite a bit of pre-work so starting in fiscal year 2019 we started collecting demographic data through all of our surveys and public meetings to get a sense of who is attending um and so you can see here through uh race and
011ethnic identifiers household income age and housing tenure where some of the disparities are um and where there is some more work for us to do in bringing new faces to to our engagement um so you can see in these graphs that we are comparing our survey respondents primarily to Census Data this is the 2021 five-year estimates so we can see for example that um in Ann Arbor for example we have quite a bit more renters than show up to our meetings um you can see the age breakdown here as well that we have primarily empty nesters or retirees um you can see the same here with our income that it's used towards higher incomes and towards um primarily white homeowners I see a hand up to we want to go ahead and yeah just take
012that quickly um the question is I've heard you say this is based on meeting participants and I've seen it survey respondents what's the population for this for these results yes so in our entire database we collect both um these charts here are showing you the survey data um secondly we went through uh staff education before starting this process so we researched some promising practices from other communities so that's a term that we use now instead of best practices it's promising practices we looked at our own practices to see where there may be gaps and then looked at some research um in Ann Arbor and in Washington County to see what efforts are being made towards Equitable engagement yeah um so some of our current practices are are in community engagement toolkit so that was designed
013to help staff members who are leading engagement efforts to sit down with a community engagement specialist like myself it's a five-step process where we look through stakeholders uh we have a stakeholder list so we determine who should be at the meetings we discuss what are the best techniques given our desired outcomes for this uh process and so that is done before many of the Public Services uh engagement sessions the demographic data collection I just shared with you we also worked with IEP 2 that stands for the International Association of public participation they're a global non-profit that's dedicated to this topic and we have them come in and train about 50 staff members on on promising practices for engagement we've also worked with the youth before the pandemic it we are hoping to move back in
014that direction uh in 2019 Heather had worked with a class at Community High and that taught them about the Civic process and really got them thinking about some of these topics that might not otherwise be explored in a high school curriculum and then there's also an ordinance on file this is mainly used by the planning department where developers have to have certain requirements I believe there's certain thresholds where if the development project is big enough that they have to go to the public um and talk with them first and then before the uh pandemic hitter right as the pandemic hit um the city set up an engagement Hub as everything was transitioning to online they threw up a page with some links that direct people to engagement opportunities we had some school of information students
015review it over the summer you can see that it's not getting many hits it also wasn't advertised very much but we are actually in the process of updating this which I will get to a little bit later on in this presentation so while we're doing that research we were also putting out a call for steering committee members um here's the flyer that went out that you can see some of the criteria we were looking for so now that we have that demographic data and we see who the typical attendees are we were really trying to find a steering committee that was more representative of this city and so we put out a call we received 80 applicants um and selected 30 to meet monthly again for 18 months uh and the main takeaways here are
016that we wanted a group to define equity what our core values are and uh the recommendations that I'm going to share with you so the committee did come up with an equity definition here um which is contrasted with equality so that we can see the difference in this graphic if you were to give everyone the same bike only some can succeed if you were to tailor the bike to people's kind of individual needs then they can all succeed is the idea so we use this really as the definition moving forward so you may be wondering what did we do for those 18 months um Heather organized a lot of speakers to come in and held a facilitated a lot of discussions here's some of the major topics um the opportunity index is a map that's
017created by Washtenaw County if any of you are familiar with that um the demographic data that we talked about the engagement toolkit I touched on the idea was for them to share what the city is doing and get their feedback on is this reaching our goal of equity like is this good enough and so we um we share that information with them and then we sort of veered off into other topics that ended up being very important to them um City hiring practices was a big one um and I'm actually gonna show you in this next slide uh a five toed animal that we know doesn't exist in nature but this is meant to reflect the kind of larger topics that were mainly of interest but if you can see in the Paw there where
018it says Equitable engagement we tried to filter all of it through this lens of how can Community engagement establish an equitable footing on all of these topics um so while we may have veered off into talking about hiring practices or housing we came back to well how are we getting how are our processes at the city reflecting a more are more Equitable so that we can reflect um feedback outside of our typical attendees so I'm going to jump into the recommendations and this is where we're really looking for for any feedback from you all um the first recommendation that you can see here is a really sort of based on accountability and touches on the um hiring practices so one of the main comments was you know we would feel more comfortable uh participating if
019there was some reflection of us in City staff so we go to these meetings and they're all LED um by people that don't look like us and so there were some comments here about that's a good place to start so we did have HR attend several of these meetings um so that we can talk about things because there are obviously some legal constraints as well um but it was more about um feeling reflected so that you feel more comfortable at meetings um and that fifth one there be authentic was really getting at um maybe kind of getting away from politicians speak just tell us just tell us how it is like what is the process who is the final decision maker what do you need to know from us and share and share the information
020in a very plain easy to understand language so that it's not confusing or muddled with jargon so this was the first the first recommendation is demonstrate the city's committed to advancing Equity so they want to see changes uh as opposed to to lip service the second one really touches on Outreach um there was surprisingly I think to us a conversation about using non-digital ways of getting the word out so we've kind of transferred completely that way since covid um but they really pushed for a more on the ground you know going to local businesses and putting up Flyers that way you can meet people face to face you can kind of build connections that way I'm translating materials for our non-native English speakers and then creating an online Hub which again we'll talk about later
021but really we need a place to centralize all of these opportunities because at the moment they are spread across different project pages on the city website that are difficult to find um the third recommendation here is sort of about budgeting and training more or less provide the resources necessary for staff to conduct meaningful engagement so make sure that you budget every year if this is a priority for you to have the appropriate amount of staff and that they are trained um and that once your staff is trained that way they can continue to update the resources and pools that you use and actually measure um set up goals and measure success so this is their recommendation to sort of back up Flames about you know caring deeply about engagement and then lastly they want to
022make engagement events more accessible and attractive so this is thinking of ways to increase participation and hybrid meetings is a big one so we're able to do them in this setting often at commission meetings we can have people call in but if you want to do exercises in engagement or have neighbors meet and talk face to face that's been one challenge for uh for us at certain locations to be able to facilitate that as a hybrid meeting they also wanted to be set up in ways and we all know about this and to sort of mitigate grandstanding there are certain people that feel comfortable being vocal in front of a large group of people and it can drown out other voices um and again like we've mentioned earlier is they want to to be clearly
023communicated to them what the decision is that needs to be made what's the process who's the final decision maker and are the results going to be shared with them what level of influence do they have over this decision so that's the being authentic at the beginning of the meeting or at the engagement series so some of the promising practices that we're already looking into I highlighted here the engagement Hub because we have already put in a budget request for that and I'll show you on the next slide what that entails um but Community Liaisons is another one we're looking into where groups um for example that might not feel comfortable participating or feel mistrustful or neglected by local government one workaround through that and would also be a great way to have this steering committee
024continue to collaborate with us is that the city would compensate people to work with their neighbors or their community we would train and teach them how to facilitate we would come up with certain questions we want to ask and they would go into their communities for us and relay the information back so there are some communities that are already doing that and something that the steering committee um liked so we are looking into that as well so here is a screenshot of what an engagement Hub looks like this is I think our favorite so far for the City of Pittsburgh you can see these project cards just centralize all of the projects that are available at the top people can categorize them based on their interests or location and they can subscribe to those um
025so that they can customize this page to the types of meetings they want to attend and then if you click on one of these projects you get more information like for example if there's a survey if there's a recording for the meeting the contact information the process the decision makers all the relevant information that you would need to know as uh as a potential attendee to that meeting so we are also looking into this and hoping um soon enough we'll hear if we get funding and then pursue this as one of our first action items um that is it from me thank you again for your time these two um links right here are the top one is for the project website which has more details uh as I just gave you an overview and
026the draft report is there as well so you can read that in full and send us any insights comments questions that you have and you would be sending them to this email here A2 Equitable engagement at a2gov.org I have access to that as it does Heather so we can answer any other questions or thoughts you have um based on this presentation or reading through the report I can also take some questions right now if you have any yep yep yep um okay Bridget you're up first and then Anya thank you for sharing that Michelle I have a question about um our role in this you say that your recommendation which I think is a really good one one of the recommendations is to appoint racially and ethnically minoritized candidates representing impacted Community perspectives to boards
027and commissions and we are one of those commissions so I wonder if Michelle if you have um further recommendations on how we can do that and then I guess I throw the question to uh to the commission do we have plans to start thinking about how we can do that um I guess I'll respond to that Bridget after Michelle's had her say okay thanks um so again there are some legal constraints here right but the idea is that we broaden our Outreach so that we typically when we go through our um already established channels right depending on who established them they kind of um perpetuate the same types of people attending so really this is sort of a recommendation to maybe think through how are you advertising position openings do we need to diversify how
028we do that so that we're reaching other people um kind of this community liaison approach or working with youth or it's very labor intensive which is why I think it hasn't always been prioritized but it's going to take a while to build those Partnerships so that people um want to join these groups um but in the meantime I think the main change here is how those are being advertised like through which markets which channels um and then I believe our our positions people apply and then their selected by the mayor and then voted on by the commission is that how it works yeah that yes okay well Lisa you you have your hand up you're gonna comment Lisa I think yeah I was going to say that it's not that's not always the way it
029works I mean that's not the process for EC right they're not we the commission makes a recommendation to the council Liaisons the council liaison bring that to the mayor I don't know that that the mayor has discretion in this one and some of them he does but just you know just so you know we can't we contact people that we know personally yes the real action of getting people on commissions I helped recruit someone for igpoc a few years ago it's interpersonal so you can change how you advertise things but that is not that's not the pathway the major one yeah yeah here's where I can uh I can jump in as the chair I've been the chair of the commissioner for the last three years and um um I've made an effort I've tried
030to make an effort to recruit more uh Representative members to the commission but um first of all most residents are not aware that there is an environmental Commission and secondly um um I haven't I have asked a number of people to apply who have a strong background in the environment and who are uh you know members of the bipoc community but they have declined to apply because they're just too busy with other activities so I agree we just need to broaden our we need to broaden uh public awareness of the commission and we need to broaden uh you know just so people are aware that it exists and what it does and then we also do need to reach out to uh you know to um I'm not sure to the more neglected parts of
031our community so I I've been trying to make an effort with that but I understand I think I understand fully the barriers here after uh three years of experience here especially um so I I can just mention um I'll mention some things later but I want to field other people's questions first so Anya you had your hand out next and then Lisa all right um just to comment first on that thought and then go to the question I had I think I think it is true that a lot of folks rely heavily on their own existing Network to recruit people and I think that can be very effective but I think that sometimes perpetuates the problem right so I think that that's where we have to be a little bit more intentional um about going
032out to specific neighborhoods and communities and and um I think I think it does have to be a little bit more sort of far-reaching than the people who are already in like the networks that we that we are working in um the reason for my hand up though was a question about the specifically the the Pittsburgh engagement Hub but um is there a way I like that that there's an ability to subscribe to the topic that you're interested in um is one of the functions also that you would get notified about anything new within that category because I think that there's a there's always the issue of people who maybe be very well intending to go regularly check a website but often don't right so if there's a way that they actually get notified when
033there's new things put into that category on the Hub I think that that might get people more people to come back and regularly um yeah comment and participate I'm fairly I'm almost certain that is a possibility because we can already do that with our current system it's not by General topic or geography but if you go to the project page you can click to subscribe and get notifications for that specific project um so you know we're not in contract with anyone yet so I don't know all the widgets that are available but I think that's very doable um yeah and a good point let's see uh Brooks you have your hand up uh yeah it's just um I think it's a great initiative I'm just wondering uh what does success look like to you with
034this initiative and how do you measure progress yeah that's a good question um so our goal is to increase participation and to diversify our participants so it is very challenging to measure um as we've been talking about on the team that sometimes low attendance could be a metric of success if the gut if the participants or if the neighbors trust you they might not feel a need to come to the meeting we would usually Mark that as like a failure of notifying people where it could mean the opposite um there's also trouble with the demographics that we collect because those are optional um so we do not capture everyone so we are actually in the middle of thinking about what metrics work for us um but it is going to be probably looking at the
035number of people that attend kind of versus the number of people that were invited um the demographics how many newcomers we want to start a maybe counting how many newcomers are attending our meetings so we can maybe see who we're drawing in um but there are a lot of limitations to all of these um estimates of of how to capture them but um those are some of the directions we're thinking of moving in okay thanks uh Bridget and then John I like the the Pittsburgh Hub I think that's that's a great way to interact with the community though I wonder do you have data Maybe Pittsburgh do you have some evidence to show that those folks that we're trying to reach use the website like this to get information about meetings I guess I'm thinking
036is our targeted population that we're trying to interact with more is this is this do they interact with websites do they have access on a regular basis so that is something we might be able to track once the Hub is up um for anyone who visits I think we could have pop-up windows that ask you know is this your first time visiting um and then maybe ask them a few follow-up questions to see who's using the Hub um but you're right the digital divide is is tough and I think um you know we're just at a at a tough spot right now because it's so much uh more efficient and effective to do things digitally but um so are so much more efficient but it's not always effective in reaching certain groups um so yeah
037that's a that's a big question I I'm hoping when we set up the website that we can start tracking that and if it's not getting to groups that we need then we need to push further it sort of goes with our on the ground recommendations that we got is that you know we need to spend a lot more time out in the community um so that people will feel comfortable maybe calling or emailing instead yeah okay um John and then Sarah thanks uh Michelle great presentation um really appreciated it you're going to be presenting next week to the energy commission I look forward to that too uh it seems to me that there's two really important parallel activities that are going to have a big impact on the future of the city one that's um
038based on the city and the other is is going to be taking place in the University of Michigan one is the update of the comprehensive plan and the other is uh U of M is in parallel updating its campus plan and um so I'm addressing this to you but also would be maybe interested in hearing from John and Anya to understand how your work is going to certainly inform the city's process and in particular the the Consulting entity that's going to be sort of facilitating the whole process I mean it seems to me what you've shown here is the real problem that we see between the ability to engage um engagement being typically voluntary but not necessarily being representative and I think what we really want to make sure is that it's representative um while
039not being coercive or anything else all right so it seems seems that the lessons learned and the kinds of things that you're talking about here are really important for those two processes just because I mean the city and the university are so dominant in terms of how the city really um seems to us and acts for us yeah um so I think my role ideally would be you know to get this Hub up as the comprehensive plan is rolling out um and assisting in whatever way um I can granted they already have a consultant for the their or they're choosing a consultant for the comprehensive plan but as someone on staff um I'd like to assist in any way I can and really push it through through the Hub um but we did have Heather
040was on the interview panel so we did have a representative on the interview panel making sure that they're meeting our standards for engagement through that plan great okay as U of M cognizant of the same kind of mismatches most likely that are also happening in the university community what's representative versus who's really engaging in in influencing the process if you can take 30 seconds as an aside to to describe that um not certain where to begin with that because there's so many different uh ways of interacting are you talking specifically about internally to the university or internally but also I mean I suppose also as far as I understand the university with its uh campus Plan update is going to have a work stream to coordinate with a city um and so you know hopefully
041that yields better outcomes but it's these outcomes are always going to be better if they're representative as opposed to just be who who happens to show up yeah I I don't have any specific information I don't know of Anya okay yeah I'll just jump in here for a second um I yeah I agree and um I'm of course the of course the most common uh uh area of concern is affordable housing like especially affordable uh you know Workforce housing from the University so there's I would imagine there's some discussion or so there should be some coordination between these two plans the university and the city about this topic in particular you know this has been a negotiation um this has been a major negotiation point for like Geo and Leo just having the workforce housing
042so that people don't have to drive in here from uh you know from from Far distances so um okay uh so Sarah your next step and then Lisa hi thank you Michelle that was a wonderful presentation and I'm glad you guys are working on this stuff um I just wanted to quickly plug the state of Michigan's environmental justice screening map have you heard of that yet I have yeah okay um so yeah that's just a really great tool for trying to locate um you know underrepresented communities um and I think as a commission if we're looking at recruiting that might be one place that we could look to see what sort of communities we should be reaching out to um it's a great idea and yeah and um I guess I was wondering you know
043if you had identified like leaders of specific communities that we should be reaching out to more um another thing that I look at a lot in my work is um different languages so getting you know important material into languages that you know people can actually understand if they're not English is not their first language right um if the city is doing anything with that I would be interested in hearing about that as well yes um we are looking into translation services that was another budget request that we made um we have to think through first if maybe we will save those for written materials um it can be sort of tricky to have on hand you know a person at meetings depending on what language they you know we'd have to find someone on retainer
044for that so there's a few challenges to that but definitely we're looking at we're starting with written materials um and I was going to address your other question but I don't remember what it is um it was more about Recruitment and Outreach and if there were specific groups you were aware of already or if you know we needed to work together to try to identify those groups um we so the steering committee the Equitable engagement steering committee is a great place to start and I can share that uh well I I might have to ask them first but I would imagine you know that was 30 people that were selected sort of based on groups that they represent and they were um you know there was a rubric I don't know exactly I wasn't a
045part of that process but they they were selected for that for those reasons um so I think we have a really good start with the Equitable engagement steering committee we also have a long stakeholder list that we are continuing to add to um and using that as a basis for trying to build relationships with um you know institutions in this city um so I think that we could definitely share that kind of information um so that you guys have a good place to start as well that's great yeah I think our process usually is if we have info we went out there like we would send it to Sean so I'm sure maybe Sean knows where that list is and could hook us all together on that awesome thank you hey thanks Lisa you have
046your hand up yeah Michelle thank you so much for this presentation you guys have done an enormous amount of work and that's fantastic um I wondered if while you all were working um as the uh on this committee did you follow it all the um Community engagement around the 121 East Catherine project that the affordable housing commission is doing um yes well so Heather now works for the Housing Commission which is great transition did she watch any of the engagement sessions for that I believe I did if we're talking about the same one I watched um a video where Yodi was leading the meeting with Jen Hall yes I have seen that that has circulated around us like a you know a good bar I saw that too and what I learned from that which
047I think your your results also um emphasize is that part of the reason why people don't come part of what reason why uh were missing systematically the kinds of people that you've identified is because they don't trust the city and they don't trust that it will be worth their time to come to a meeting because they don't really believe that they will be heard or that the opinions that they express will affect a process and so Yodi at that meeting went around and said why did you come and a bunch of them said we came for you we don't really care about the city and we don't trust the city and I took that as a really I think a very sobering message because um what that says to me is that if we want
048to if the city wants to reach um bypoc community's you know many communities of people who don't actually even live here yet but who might want to we have to get to them through people whom they trust and that's hard and so I I like the idea of the engagement Hub but I think this is more of the same of what we do I think it's a passive form on our part because people come to it and they sign up for for what they're interested in but it's not what people uh were asking for in the meeting with your deed which was person-to-person contact with people that they trust yeah and they also indicated to you uh you know you said uh interestingly we're moving more and more digital but people are asking for more
049and more old-fashioned flyers on businesses that they you know um patronize and you know more neighborhood Outreach so probably a big key of this is putting in the budget to really meaningfully develop those those community community engagement community-based Community engagement Specialists so that it there is a conduit or there is a familiar face and there is someone to speak not in jargon but to speak you know in a way that that affects you know that that connects actually I should say connects with people that we don't know we're not being very effective at connecting with right right those are all good points um many of which were raised by the equivalent engagement steering committee and that's sort of what the community Liaisons is meant to get at so um you know imagine you know like
050that the city compensated yod in some way for going into that community and running that meeting for us and relaying back to us if they don't trust us to leave the meeting it's finding um people who have a connection with communities that we don't um and having them help us do that work a kind of a liaison that helps us build trust with them as well right so what we would need to begin with is someone who can reach people who might be willing to serve that role you know deep does this for a living she is being well paid by the city um maybe you know I think she she has built a sort of citizens commission around the 120 when he's Catherine but there would have to be more of those built and
051either you have to be willing to be super busy or there would have to be more people like Yodi who can help recruit because I don't think that the city is going to have a lot of success recruiting people to become that Community liaison unless the pay is really good and there's you know people with a lot of street cred trying to do that work because people people come when they think their voice is going to make a difference so that's that's kind of a that's a place we've got a gap I think but anyway that's agreed okay yeah thanks Lisa um um any other hands up I don't see any other hands up okay um I'm gonna jump in then I have two questions so the first one is that I noticed in your
052paw print diagram that that that that's great but I I thought uh you know I thought like something that was missing was Public Works um because you know when most people most most of the residents think about the city it's really the public works department that they think about you know the water supply the sewer the streets and the street lights things like that so um I'm wondering um I'm wondering uh where you where uh staff was considering where the the whole Public Works arm of the city so we didn't create this Paul the the Equitable engagement steering committee these were the topics they brought to us as being of you know a folk of focus areas okay yeah okay so um but I I'm still asking the question okay Public Works um I guess
053I would say that because it didn't come up from them we didn't spend much time on on that so I I don't think they brought forward to us you know complaints or grievances about that so we didn't talk about I know what you mean though I mean most meetings it ends up being about roads to be honest right and what bad condition they're in that's where there's a lot of complaints that come in but yeah and a lot of fear about water quality um but that um that didn't come up with this group oh okay um and so my second question was about uh part of it is just some suggestions I'd like to put out um first of all is that you know with these Community Liaisons that's an absolutely necessary element here but
054there's been talk periodically about the need for uh an ombudsman's office to have a central like Clearinghouse for Community concerns and so I think if in terms of like engaging with the top with the with the senior management of the city I think having a having it on hiring an ombudsman and giving him the approach him or her or the appropriate responsibilities um would be uh would be a place to put all these um uh the community liaison programs so I'm just throwing that out there and um and the other thing is you know with um and and with these Community Liaisons I've done a fair amount of door-to-door canvassing and and many different communities in Ypsilanti Township for example as well as the city and the excerpts around it and um I think like
055um you know first of all um I've done some um service projects through my church in Detroit and I was very impressed with the block organizations in Detroit and this is something I brought up a few times like with Missy Stoltz is that you know having having a strong block organization is a really good element yeah and you know the reason it's strong in Detroit is because the city abandoned a lot of these neighborhoods yeah even the police department abandoned them and so I think if um if there's some kind of an effort to uh to to get a block organization revived here in Ann Arbor I understand there used to be one uh and then um and then you know the city in in the city issues permits for block parties so for example
056having somebody just show up at the block parties to talk to people and see if they could recruit people and they're in those in those communities to help with Community engagement I think that would be a great idea and then also with the schools you know like for example the principal here at Barnes Park um would occasionally have a PTO meeting down at Bryant Community Center is that part of the part of the Burns Park School District but it's isolated down there south of i-94. and so um so you know the the community centers and the schools can be good places for this but they really need to get down into a finer granularity you know than it has been traditional and um you know and there's also our our elected officials who are usually
057aware of these things like the council members you know yeah of where there are where there are gaps you know in in community engagement so so I just wanted to throw that out there but I think I don't know if there's been any consideration of an ombudsman's office but I think that could be a Central Key to to to connecting uh Community liaison effort with um you know with um anybody who's got concerns with the city's performance yeah I think those are great suggestions um I can't speak much nor can I really even pronounce um I know that that is a Hot Topic that to be honest may or may not being discussed in seriousness I'm not sure but I know that I've seen those in survey results as well um as to your suggestions
058um those fit very neatly into our goal of being on the ground more um of visiting sites and building those connections um there are several neighborhood organizations uh I don't know how active they are but I know there's a long list of them um throughout the city so that can definitely be on our list we are creating a list of you know stakeholders that we want to spend more time with it's just there is only two of us um and we also have to plan all of the engagement or the projects that are ongoing so we are trying to kind of strategically pick um places throughout the city where we want to you know build relationships and I I think those are good suggestions oh great yeah and don't forget I wouldn't forget about the
059faith community either correct yeah having a table after church services or uh you know um you know places of worship I think is is an accepted practice and it's um so contacting the clergy would you know across all faiths would be uh probably useful exercise you know but these are traditionally institutions that are regarded as separate from the city so that's the only reason I'm bringing it up but they do exist within the community um so that I I'm sorry I've used up a lot of time so Lisa you have your hand up oh no she wants to lower it yeah oh okay all righty um are there any other questions for Michelle um if not I want to very thank you deeply Michelle for you and the rest of the staff well thank you
060for letting me come here and share the results and taking it so seriously and um you know support from commissions means a lot so um thank you for letting me have this time yeah I I I'm sure we well we would all be appreciate um a more continuous contact about this issue okay and whatever questions you have to make okay all right thank you all right thank you again let's move on to the next item on the agenda which is a presentation on biosolids and Wastewater management by Keith Sanders so Keith would you like to manage your own presentation I am trying to bring it up now let me know if you can see it well Sean's going to have to uh um you know change the permissions yes I just made you a co-host
061piece so you should be able to share your screen now can you guys see that not yet not yet ah I can see it oh you may need to stop sharing and then try to share again yeah it said it failed to share so we'll give it another try nope uh did you get the request for me to become a co-host you may have to accept that before yeah is it working yeah here it is thanks Keith thanks [Music] is it not from the beginning there we go so what we'd like to do is give you the context for our discussion uh it's a perfect timing to look at how we manage our biosolids we have a new permit um starting next summer that's going to be lower for phosphorus and we're also working on
062a centrate treatment for our Century from our centrifuges and so this is good timing for that we also have um as you know new emerging contaminants that pop up here and there and that seems to be a moving Target so that's kind of why we wanted to talk with you guys um I want to give you the background of what we do now uh some things going on with pfos and bile salads and then our future plans and hopefully you guys will think we're going in the right direction so our current practice is lime application or land application lime stabilized biosolids we try to do this seven months out of the year um we have a subcontractor there's really only two in the state we only got about 8.4 million gallons out last year we
063lost about three months due to weather truck drivers various issues so this number you see the 8.4 million gallons is is pretty low for us that should be probably three million higher and then in the winter um or when you know wait wait for the load limits to come off so we can start land application so usually around the end of mid to end of November through May were um running our centrifuges dewaterers it and we make a cake that goes to the landfill so these are the two things that we do now uh so why we do land application uh we believe it prevents landfill space from being taken up by recycled product it puts organic matter back in the soil uh puts um you know gives fertilizer for the farmers they don't have
064to rely on Commercial fertilizer so it saves them some money so there's you know there's a reason they want to participate with us however there's some drawbacks to land application uh it requires a lot of semi trucks to the site there's anywhere from 13 to 20 round trips uh they haul 10 000 gallon tankers to the to our site every day and then they go out to Farmers fields which can be up to 40 50 miles away um weather affects us with with climate change these freak weird storms that we're now getting a lot has really affected our ability to I mean this last season we didn't haul for a month and a half from middle of June to probably the end of July um just because the rains and things like that our subcontractors
065seem to be having a hard time finding semi drivers like everyone else the fluctuating fuel prices has them constantly you know looking for more money or saying you know they can't they won't be able to perform the service if it hits five dollars a gallon there's only two of them that ever bid on it in the state um we had one leave because they said it it didn't pay enough and then we will get into the emerging contaminants like pfas um that's just the current one if you will oh and so one of the things that kind of gives us pause um is Maine has banned all bio cells application no matter the concentration EPA is considered listing foil as under circular regs which could make it hazardous waste which would affect our ability to
066land apply and then Health advisories are coming out and so pfos limits have really are a moving Target right now and we don't know where they're going to land uh Michigan is is a prime example of that we're up to 28 compounds and there's more coming as soon as the tests get approved uh they're only limiting one right now and that's pfas uh started out that it was anything greater than 125 was industrial impacted and you couldn't land apply than it was if you're under 125 but greater than 50 you notify eagle and then if you're under 50 you can land a plot but you really need to look for um your source and now they've got it under 20 you need to keep looking for sources so it's really a moving Target that we're
067really not sure where it's going to end and one of the most important things of running a Wastewater Plant is being able to get rid of those solids because if you can't then you won't be able to put out a high quality effluent to meet your permit uh real quick here's some of our results um you know since 2020 we have had six detects of pfas compounds total we've had 11 samples since January of 2020. we've had three detects of pfos we had a four a 9.5 and a 0.37 and then we had three other compounds that had detects also so we we are pretty clean but still if they go with circla it will really affect our ability to get rid of our bile cells so we've kind of talked about land app and
068some of the the concerns with emerging contaminants so when we do landfill it's easier on our plant operations um they're pretty reliable the landfill almost never closes and it isn't weather dependent if it rains they can still hog to the landfill and again the most we would take is probably two to four round trips total right now we're doing one to two per day but in the Summer where we haven't necessarily hauled you know we we produce more solids that have to be dealt with just because the bugs are more active and we're trying to keep a certain mix liquor um in the aeration deck also we believe there's less risk of merging contaminants because this being in a landfill this line instead of spread out in the environment so another benefit there are some
069drawbacks to landfill um the century can have a an effect on our biological phosphorus treatment and raise our um phosphorus and are effluent we are working on a side stream uh centrate treatment so by doing nothing but uh centrifuging this year it will allow us to fine-tune that so next year when our permit is lower for phosphorus we should be able to you know meet their readily so that's one of the the positives too with timing uh limited landfill space landfill acceptance some landfills uh I've heard are not taking some biocells because they say it it doesn't pack well and causes their landfill to have voids or or slide um there's also possible odors we we didn't have any last July and it was pretty warm but you could have odors at the wastewater treatment
070plant or at the landfill and they could say you know it's they don't want the load because it smells and you aren't recycling the nutrients in your organic matter back to the soil when you send it to the landfill our cost comparison right now it's a little bit cheaper to landfill um this is based on our current rates um I know that we have a really cheap landfill rate um our our rate to truck it and tip it at the landfill is less than thirty dollars a dry ton and everyone I talk to is flabbergasted so you know that bid could change and that could change this cost comparison but but for now um it's it's cheaper to landfill and you can see even with land application there's still some landfill costs because at best
071we're only going to be able to land apply for seven months so what we're recommending going for is to flip our practice and um just do land filling and keep land application as a backup just in case because you always want to have two ways to get rid of your bio solids so you can meet your permit um we would only use land application if we couldn't find a landfill and there was no other way to get rid of them the biosolids um we're working on the century treatment we hope to you know fine tune that and get that dialed in for next summer uh we're continually working on holders um on the CIP there's carbon scrubbing for the truck Loadout to to grab those and run that through activated carbon we're looking at the
072addition of a biodigester to get that plan that will help stabilize the unstabilized primary waste activated so that would reduce odors for us going forward we use a chemical called Planet Breeze that that the landfill says helps reduce odors they're they're happy with that and then we have a carbon system and solids handling building that we would uh keep doing the o m to ensure that that is grabbing as many odors as we can also and that is really what we would like oh Brian has his handle uh Brian you have the floor sure thanks Keith for for the presentation um you know we'll we're obviously here to also answer any questions but I guess before we do that I just want to share and I apologize I can't get my camera working um in
073a remote location um but there are a couple other points of note related to pfos and biosolids I mean this is a pretty Dynamic space in the regulatory environment right now we're waiting imminently to find out what the EPA is going to do on drinking water for example um it's overdue and we should be hearing within the next few weeks if they're um what the epa's regulations are going to be around pfas elements um we're also as Keith mentioned we're still waiting and trying to figure out how Congress is going to handle Circle obligation and whether Water and Wastewater utilities will get a categorical exclusion what we're hearing so far is very unlikely so that puts us in um you know a position of risk um and then there is also ongoing litigation currently in
074the state of Michigan or associated with pfas application on farmland so even though our our the concentration of pfos in our biosolids is low and sometimes non-detect recall that it takes time for us to get those analytical results and we're not we wouldn't be seeing them until after the pfos has been left and or and disposed of um and we since we know we do have an issue with um occasional concentrations of things that we know to be a health impact um philosophically we believe that we shouldn't be um land applying it and and basically allowing the pfos to aggregate in the food chain um so that has been really the driver for this change in approach that we've um that we're planning on implementing this year so with that I will open it up
075to questions from you all okay thanks Brian um yeah John and then Rita and then Anya thanks Brian and Keith um good presentation uh I I agree with the primary thought thrust of not uh allowing pfas to be distributed on on cropland I was a little surprised that on slide 10 there was no mention of the fact that we're going to be taking organic matter sending it to landfill and in landfill um it's going to be creating methane as a greenhouse gas and so there is a negative impact there I don't know if that tips the scale and I don't know if anyone's made any calculation as far as what the impact would be to the city's greenhouse gas emissions but I think it should be at least recognized and calculated and then we can
076evaluate whether or not it's it's anything significant or not we celebrate every every couple of houses that are electrified for example in the Bryan neighborhood and something like this could could be I don't know Factor 10 times that or whatever so it just it seems to me that should be somehow uncalculated in the in the overall equation thanks yeah I wasn't sure um if our landfill has a methane to energy recovery um some do some don't you know they they take it we've went to a couple different landfills so I mean I can try to figure out what they have at the one they're going to that we're going to now and and see if they have that because they might be creating energy um and I have seen studies that say you know they
077create more methane and energy in a landfill because it speeds up the decomposition and they've been able to produce more gas to create more electricity or or clean it up and put it in the grid so yeah possibility is certainly there I don't think it's there right now and in fact I think as a part of the city's greenhouse gas emissions there is a small percentage that is due to organic matter um going to landfill and being transformed into methane that escapes in the environment I think that's that's all thanks okay Rita and then yeah now thanks for the presentations really important um my question has to do with um there was a slide that mentioned the source of pfas and I just wondered if if once it's discovered what you meant by that source
078is it tracked back to anything in particular is there anything we can learn to reduce the load um in in the biosolids we are actually in a really good spot because we have not really found a source of pfos we're really at the background level our influence is right around three to four for pfos and pfoa which I understand is normal if you will because of uh shedding from non-stick pans um you know uh toilet paper has it in there and things like that so that's kind of like the background level which isn't good but that's what I'm hearing is a background level in most Wastewater so those are for you know when you see those numbers of 50 and 120 those are for places that have they've had like a try bar or they've
079had a plater or they've had somebody like that or a landfill leachate right they've been able to go up the stream find them and then say Hey you know you really have to treat this at the source and get that treated we're so low that we have not been able to find anybody you know when you're at the three three and four right okay thanks I have another question is is the drinking water system so that's the probably the primary source to the Wastewater Plant which is what our source is so and that's one of our concerns in the circular classification is is that the city could be identified as a generator and we did see when tribar got their levels down it was lower at the at the water plant wouldn't right Brian when
080you guys put the carbon in we did see it go down at our NR effluent too so I mean we we could see that and that's going to affect our bile cells so just one more question um with our um goal of of uh having more people live in Ann Arbor is are there any concerns that you have in terms of the volume of Bio cells that you'll be processing with managing them in the future not really we see crazy I've been with the city for 13 years and our flow used to be at 18 Non-Stop and since covid we've been closer to 14 and 13 million gallons a day so there's been growth through that period but our flows just you know haven't haven't seen that so I think it's you know tightening up
081the system and things like that and you know we can always process we have the centrifuges and the capability to process it though great thank you yeah I'm Anya and then Lisa um I I had a question similar to what uh commissioner mursky brought up um and and I understand that the pfas being land applied and getting back into exclude systems and whatnot as uh the primary concern um but I do think it'd be interesting to at least have that calculation and understanding of what the emissions would be you know associated with landfilling that organic material but then I imagine it's at least to some degree offset if you know the land bill is closer than some of these Farms that it's also being tracked to so you know is there a savings for map
082tracking and I I don't know but I think I think that that would probably be a worth be a worthwhile data point to have um and then I was wondering if if there are fluctuations in how much the pfas readings are you know and if if so is there a possibility of doing a hybrid approach where you know if it's a certain level it goes to the landfill if it reads at a lower level it can be land applied or if it's if it's pretty consistent you really sort of just need to pick one primary um it's pretty consistent lately and the testing is getting better one of the problems with going back and forth is you know staff hey when we do lime stabilization it's a different process so we have to make lime
083we have to raise that pH for to 12 for two hours and um you can't run that through a centrifuge it will tear up your centrifuge so and you don't want to have unstabilized and stabilize and you're trying to do two different processes inevitably someone misses a valve and then you're sending unstabilized stuff out to a farmer's field which is really bad right um and like Brian said you it's so hard to get data we have about 1.2 million gallons of storage which is about two weeks worth and pfos data takes I would say four to six weeks to get back I mean even if you paid a rush I don't know if we'd have it back in time to be able to then say okay now this is how we want to process it
084it'd be a very difficult um thing I believe for us to try to do and the Wastewater site is pretty confined so there's you know if we can put in a six seven million gallon tank we'd have all kinds of time you know but we're really if you look we got a railroad to our North the river wraps around us and we've pretty much used almost every square foot of Green Space um some places that show Green Space is either saved for for future growth or there's stuff buried in the ground that you can't see so it's it so much I would love to would be I think it would be really hard um okay thanks Keith I'm Lisa you have your hand up yeah thank you um this is really very um Illuminating um
085I just wanted to make sure first of all that I that I followed what you were saying in response to commissioner Mitchell so you're saying that our levels three to four are on in one sense not alarming because what it means is that we don't have someone who's actually polluting or you know like a tri-bar you know uh so there we don't we don't have a a spill problem we don't have an external someone who's externalizing their um their costs you know by polluting our water but on the other hand that the source of our pfas is most likely the water treatment plant and so and you saw I thought I want to make sure that I followed Keith what you said that when the city started treating the at the water treatment plant with
086carbon there was a decrease in pfas at the wastewater treatment plant in our influence yes yeah yeah okay that's that's nice that's a good story so I also understand so I understand that um and I agree with that we do have a moral imperative regardless of what EPA does with regulations not to put more pfas in the food chain than is already there it's bad enough that it's going there from you know snack food wrappers and stuff I get that I also get that we're sort of under the threat of the water treatment plant being viewed as a polluter and that would be not a good thing at all um but I do want to raise that one drawback about landfilling um in addition to the methane concerns and the CO2 issues is that we
087do landfill outside Washtenaw County and we do landfill to a county that um where average incomes are lower and property values are lower and so we are with respect to that County we are externalizing um the costs of what we do in Ann Arbor and we should at least acknowledge the environmental justice issues of an increased you know of shifting systematically um to landfilling of our biosolids that's a constant systematic increase of what we're sending to of what we're diverting to landfills and I'm understanding that this is not a perfect world and this probably is our best solution but we shouldn't let those things go unmentioned and um you know in a really great world which I don't know if we're in it we would think of ways to mitigate that you know some forms
088of investment that would acknowledge we were doing this but yeah Thank you Lisa Sarah and then Brian hi Keith and uh Brian I I just wanted to express my support for moving away from Land application of biosolids I think landfilling is the smarter option going forward um I I'm pretty familiar with rickra and I know that that has a agricultural exemption um so if you you know apply biosols to a ag field under normal AG practices um that that would then be exempt under part 201 I'm a lot less familiar with circla um so I guess I was wondering um going forward um you know obviously any new laws that are put out regarding pfas we want to comply with but could circular also be retroactive where historic applications of biosolids with pfos the city
089would have liability for um so sort of like say we applied back in 1985 and now there's a field with pfas and people are eating the corn with the city be liable for that as well under Surplus I'll start the answer I mean the answer to some of these questions are just we just don't know and this is something that we're we're watching and listening um the whole the water and wastewater industry is pretty unified in their approach um and has been aggressively lobbying um Congress about these issues so you know what we've heard is is it's going to be really difficult for um Congress probably to list a categorical exclusion for water and wastewater facilities because it opens a door and weakens the strength of the program so we're not optimistic that we're going
090to get that however what EPA is also saying is their intention intention through that program is not to enforce you know bring enforcement actions against utilities because they're not really the original generators all right the utility space is not drilled with that approach because there is liability um that would be remaining under the ACT so it's hard to know exactly how it will impact us until we see exactly what they do in terms of how they incorporate it and classify it so we'll be evaluating the liability and risk as this moves forward but there is always um just liability like from just being sued um which is what's already happening you know there are cases in Michigan um so part of it is is just you know if we we know that this is an
091issue um any decisions that we make now are not irreversible I just wanted to make that point so you know if we take this approach now and as information comes in and we want to reevaluate um with our attorney's office our risk and liability we can always return to land application but at this point with the uncertainty um and the active litigation that we're seeing in the state we feel like this is The Prudent decision for the city to make for this coming season um and it's something that we can talk about um we'll have a lot more information as this year progresses and we can come back and talk to you about what we've learned and whether we think it's appropriate to adjust our approach um later on this year yeah we've we've we've
092told our the land application contractors that if we're planning on this for a year because one thing we don't want to lose is our application sites and we don't want them to you know come in and just rate them all so yeah all right thank you I was just more interested in like the legal framework so thank you for that answer yeah um any other questions for Brian and Keith okay well I'm going to jump in here now and um so um thank you first of all uh Keith and Brian I think you guys I agree with Sarah that you've done um a very prudent analysis when you have a very good approach here um you know for the time being considering you know weighing all the risks and and responsibilities so um I was
093just wondering um you know and thank you for the data that you presented I'm not sure if you're willing to share the more detailed data on the pfas analyzes that you get and what averages are like but um um I I just had a question that do you know uh at what time you're going to start using the APA 1633 or asking you know your analytical labs to use the EPA um method and so is it as soon as it's approved we will you know and that's what they'll have to go to right that's what uh the eagle will require us so yeah okay it's it's been in draft for three years so um I expect it's gonna happen soon um I also believe that one's gonna add some more parameters sorry but I believe
094that's going to add some more parameters too um 28 you saw I think it's gonna will be up over 28 uh pfas compounds that will be sampled for yeah and so another aspect of that is is you guys Contracting a top analysis as well on top of that 1633 it's a sample pre-treatment it's called total organic precursor because you know it was noticed decades ago that a lot of these pfas compounds break down into pfos and pfoa and so you can get variable results in the fact that you might not see it you might not see a certain level of pfos you know in your sample in your especially in a soil or by a solid sample um over time through natural chemical processes you will see it um it will it will it will
095crop up because it was first noticed because in a lot of um you know so uh wastewater treatment plants um you know you had more pfos coming out than was going in so and we have that sometimes right yeah we try to we try to take our effluent sample a day later because it's about a 24 hour run through the plant so we try to see in and out and and sometimes you will see a little higher from that breakdown yeah so so many other jurisdictions have gone to using a top assay just so that they have like a final end point you know for what what that prod what that substance or product if you want to call that your biosol it's a product that you know that that's what the ultimate concentration of
096pfos and is going to be in there and pfoa because those were the Legacy compounds that were most um so I would recommend it's it's really just a sample pre-treatment so the top assay um you know you can just have that done but a lot of times people use both top plus like 16 33 or just 16 33 just to see you know what the precursor background is you know they're called pfos precursors but that's a uh that's a test that was published maybe 20 you know 12 years ago um to do that and I know it's offered by all the major you know companies like um you know Europeans and Merit Labs things like that so they all have a top method as part of their offerings their analytical offerings so I would just
097recommend you do that just to see um what maybe the load is um I'm not sure if Eagle is regulating that now I don't believe that's required probably not so I understand that you know you're reluctant your reluctance rightfully so to do things that are not are outside what the current regulation is but um I think it could be a prudent practice um in the future and then um and then also with your landfill costs um you you mentioned a number for your landfilling costs so if you know if uh you know if um the city's via solids came up above whatever circla you know whatever number is established by the EPA for the circular for biosolids um whenever that number comes how much uh how much would that cost to the city go up
098if you're landfilling it hazardous waste yes we'd have to get a quote right because now it couldn't you'd be going to a totally different landfill right yeah you'd probably go to hazardous Wasteland Phil and that's you'd have to find one somewhere that could yeah there's only one there's only one in Michigan and it's in in Willow Run we'd have to get a quote from them at the time and I imagine if that happens there's going to be a lot of Wastewater plants going that way so it it unfortunately I bet it won't be a reasonable number yeah you'll want to get in line there but yeah that's that's a potential you know it's uh what some people would call an unintended consequence but when you think these things all through you know um um you
099have less unintended consequences so um I I presume you're being regulated by the mpdes permit the if for the bio cells yes well it's it's yeah the MPS permit puts you under the the part 24 rules for Michigan and then they're you know the IPP really they're running most of the pfas under industrial pre-treatment for sampling and and finding it for your influent and effluent but the bio solids that you have to take one sample before you start applying and you have to send a letter to every farmer where you're going to apply what your level is yeah yeah I'm aware of that I I spend a lot of time on pfas mostly through the Sierra Club uh National Organization but um um so okay um so I just have one comment um and that
100is that um I'm not sure what you mean by the centrate process could you give a brief description yeah so we take you take the the bio solids and you put them in a centrifuge and spin it really fast and the liquid that drops out is our century and then the cake the salads goes into a hopper that goes to the landfill so that Century that you've spent you spin out has to be treated so it goes back to the head of the plant and it's a pretty pretty high load to the plant so we're trying to minimize that load tie that up before it hits the plant so we don't see it you know that that bump okay and then the second I realized there's also a concern about this the fact that you
101don't have much land uh a extra land to use for upgrading the waste current wastewater treatment plan so I don't know I don't know who's pay grade this comes down to um I'm I'm hoping that maybe I I just want to throw out there that one thing that's always been considered um in the in this area of uh when solid waste is gray water is uh is getting separation of gray water so it does not enter the sewer system you know gray water is basically stuff coming out of your shower your showers and your kitchen sink and uh you know and um and I know you've been talking mostly about pfos but uh um the phosphorus of course is another thing so we might want to revisit this issue sometime later this year um you
102know with um you know with the waste water and fast um the phosphorus the nutrient problems and um and so um that's all I wanted to say at this point but um you guys are doing a top job so thank you so much given the stresses and uh my my and just to throw this in one of the deficiencies of the circle of laws is that they don't recognize a pass-through you know is it and um you know you're in a situation where you get sued and then you have to sue somebody else and you know it just goes up the chain and so ninety percent of all the circle funds were spent on lawyers not on cleanups so um that's that's something that has to change at the federal level so um okay so
103um if there's no other questions or comments um I don't hear or see any so let's move on to the next item on the agenda which is a discussion of the solid waste budget um um uh Sean could you just put up the uh the page we got from City staff which basically all all the data we've gotten so far from um you know from the city is about um you know is the uh the solid waste fund the status of the solid waste fund so um and so and uh there and they they will not be available uh to present uh anything in more detail to the commission until our April meeting so um if you can page down Sean um you see here's the table so we have um you know fiscal year
1042021 and fiscal year 2022 which I believe ended in July of 2022. so we have these numbers um there's nothing of great concern here um but we do see that the unrestricted fund balance is is quite high it's like 13 million dollars and 19 million dollars in fiscal year 2022 so um oh Brian you have your hand up yeah I'm I'm available to answer any questions that you might have I may or may not be able to answer them but I wouldn't mind just prefacing um before you get into discussion and questions um I anticipated that there would probably be a question about the unrestricted fund balance and you can see the change in that um had to do with how we calculate some of these things like opeb um and pension adjustments landfill liability
105so these are things that are done at the end of the fiscal year um basically to recalibrate based on current interest rates and um so it's sort of an on paper um re rebalancing recalculation that happens that basically ended up with um an increase this year other years it goes the other direction so you know we can't always rely on that you know so we we one try to maintain um a fund balance that allows us to handle the variability in some of these expenditures um but our principle which I think is really the most important point that I want to make in terms of managing our Solid Waste millage and the revenues is to ensure that our recurring expenses are being able to be covered by our the revenues that we're getting from the
106millage um so the you know we don't want to be in a position where we're adding um services that could become recurring commitments to the community if we don't have a revenue Source a recurring Revenue source to be able to fund those so we see the fund balance um to be used for things like we need to replace Vehicles which can be very expensive um the drop-off station is another major project which is going to be um you know the price keeps going up I'm sure you're all following that we don't really know what the final number is going to be until we get through sort of a lot of decision making design um but it's in the the many millions um you know over five less than 10ish so we want to be positioned
107to be able to fund those things and that is what our intention of using the fund balances for obviously we're also seeking Partners in that project as well as grant funding and other Revenue resources so the city would not be footing the whole bill nonetheless our contribution is still going to be significant um so I just don't want you to see a big number 19 million and think that we're sort of Flushed with cash to spend on lots of new things we are very prudent about you know making sure again that we're balancing our budget we do have some resources that will augment some of the services that we are providing in this space through the climate millage um so those are some things that again that's a recurring Revenue source so we are able
108to utilize some of that to expand some of our Recycling services and and circular economy goals and things like that so with that I'll stop but I just wanted to preface the discussion with some of those points oh great thank you so much Brian that was that was very instructive and so I mean my only concern at looking at this was just the large variation the large variances which are sometimes like a sign that you that um you don't really have control over your um you know over uh over some of the liabilities and some of the assets here so for example with the opeb pension adjustments you know they seem to vary quite a bit from year to year and so uh it's not clear why those are so variable as well as the
109landfill liability adjustment yeah I'm not really prepared I mean this year interest rates changes has been one pretty significant factor and that has changed very dramatically um over the past few years um so that has in this case worked in our favor associated with some of these liabilities um if we could we can schedule a time if you have much more detailed Financial questions to bring someone from our finance group I'm in to talk to you about it so I'm really not positioned to talk about that I will add one other thing that I did want to mention there are some uncertainties we have moving forward that we would that are changes that we want to make sure that we have Clarity on also before we make some other commitments and one of those things
110for is our Solid Waste franchise um agreement for commercial um properties downtown so that um and that's you know on uh I think it's on our next Council agenda there's going to be some ordinance changes associated with that where waste management will actually be doing the customer service the building we've been collecting um Revenue associated with providing those services that is going to go away um and now waste management will be getting that because they're going to be providing those services so we we still have some you know understanding to do on what this how this is going to impact us um in terms of you know we were paying people to do some of these services and now waste management is so um you know we're going to be able to repurpose staff and
111things like that but that does impact sort of our bottom line because we had costs associated with these funds that will not be reimbursed with a revenue Source um we also have a zero all um aware of but renegotiated our contract with Raa provide multi-family and recycling service um commercial um Recycling services and that has gone up on at a rate greater than what our um our millage is providing us so there are things like that that we have to figure out and make sure that we can absorb again before we start really changing the suite of services that we're going to be providing yeah okay great thank you thanks for that clarification Brian that's great um and you know we will be having this as a major uh item on our April agenda um
112but yeah we appreciate having the finance person there because that's been a traditional interaction between the environmental commission and the Solid Waste Department so um John you have your hand up and then Chris yes I think it makes most sense that we shift into the OR delay the most of the discussion on this to the April meeting and I think it's important um for the reason that these figures without context and without an explanation are hard to interpret um first of all I think um Brian's right about um the unrestricted fund balance and the big shifts that those are things that are you know happening outside of the sphere of influence even of of of the city like interest rates and things like that um but there are other things um that are within our
113I think our sphere of influence that probably are driving some of these and um I can only um make uh make a conjecture as to what those might be for example material recovery costs went up I'm assuming that might have been um winter Organics collection um it would be nice to know if that's indeed the driver it would be nice to know if what the tonnage of that was and did we you know come that collect a sufficient amount of tonnage um to justify the additional expense and additional greenhouse gases of trucks going around once a month to picking things up so uh what what I do see here which I find uh reassuring is that roughly revenues and expenses are balanced the last two years I mean there's there's not a big variance um
114at just the operating level which is which is um good and what that reflects is a change from what we saw maybe five or six years ago uh I I shared with a few people I think Steve and Rita in particular a slide that was shown by Creston slotten to the environmental commission I think it was in December of 2017 that showed um big projected gaps between uh revenues and expenses and actually forecasting several years out that the unrestricted fund balance was going to go below zero and we're we're certainly nowhere um close to anything like that and in fact we got communication from Sarah that the target for the unrestricted fund balance has been raised from 15 to 25 percent of uh operating expenses which would put that um at roughly four and a
115half million if you look at the average roughly of the last two years of 18 million dollars a year's expenses so we're we're well above the four and a half million um that we had before so compared to where we were several years ago there's just I think a lot of good news but I mean my recommendation is not to cut off anybody else's comments or discussion but that I think we're going to get a lot more in the April meeting especially if we get someone from finance and from Opera operations there that can explain some of these things and one of the things that I would ask Brian is that we do get an understanding of if the the target for the unrestricted fund balance is say roughly 5 million and we're somewhere in
116this let's say 12 to 19 million dollar range um what is it that we might be using these funds for you talked about trucks and we know we want to Electrify um our our trucks um that's going to be a huge expense so it'd be interesting to hear um what what that restricted funds balance could potentially be used for for one-time um type of expenditures so that that's the extent of my comments thanks hey thank you John Brian you have your hand up yeah I'd like to just respond to um a couple of the points I mean the the goals for unrestricted fund balance you know are based on you know best Bex practice to have cash on hand to handle expenses associated with operating on all of this all of these things that are
117identified here so as we're planning for um some significant Capital Investments that's where we're putting those resources right so you need to take out of that what we're setting aside for the drop-off station and some other Investments as an example and then I think that balance is much closer towards what our our Target would be um you can see in FY 22 um you know our budget our expenses were budgeted to be greater than our budget for FY 22 so we were fortunate um that that's not didn't turn out to be the case um but you know we're you know I I would say it was a good year from a financial standpoint but if what we budgeted turned out to be the case we would have actually had a loss um so you know
118and there are lots of reasons why it didn't turn out that way but nonetheless you know we are this is a fund that is our route our regularly recurring costs and our regularly recurring revenues are very very close and there is not a lot of leeway in terms of again service growth if we're going to try to meet our financial goals um without dipping into this unrestricted fund balance yeah yep okay thanks Brian any other questions about this um I agree let's let's uh I think we need to table any further discussion about this until April so um let's move on to the next item on the agenda which would be uh the environmental Commission of policy recommendations for 2024. this is going to be brief uh basically I'm going to ask for a volunteer
119for a couple of volunteers and uh the fact is that uh you know we missed a deadline back in December for the city's policy recommendations and let policy and legislative recommendations for 2023 so what we'd like to do is have I need a volunteer for somebody to review these I'm looking in we have some uh some examples of what the commission had submitted in 2019 is in December of 2019. um this is uh this is um a topic that's uh sometimes fallen from Fallen beneath the radar especially during covet and um you know based on Communications problem so I'm just trying to regularize a process where we can interact and and get our input into to city council and to staff in time for these to be uh for these policy recommendations to be uh
120you know to be completed including input from the not just the environmental commission but the other commissions as well so um so is somebody willing to take to take this on as a um right please raise your hand electronically you know anybody going once going twice hey Steve is this a question that could be referred to each one of the working group's natural features pollinators etc etc I could do that so that was going to be my backup so I guess I'll manage that process and what I'll be doing is we'll have we'll have a meeting with the people who are uh leading the different working groups and committees okay so you'll be hearing from me later today so um okay so moving on to the next item reports from committees other commissions counsel and
121share so let's do the Committees first uh um natural features no comment okay um Solid Waste John zero waste we're gonna call it right I mean zero waste yeah uh we're continuing to work with our CE student group their reports coming in in a few weeks and Sam McMullen is organizing uh another larger group meeting sometime later this month I think that's about it anything else Lisa well Sam's also doing that zero waste challenge at the University this week which is great really good to see yeah that was a great program so um okay thank you John um how about pollinators Rita you're muted hi yeah thank you um first off I want to thank my fellow Commissioners for who've joined in on the pollinator work group we've had some some good discussions um we
122are working toward a spring and actually a full range of seasonal approach to supporting pollinators in the community and kind of modifying what was Nomo made last year um so stay tuned we're still working with City staff on a Communications plan and a method so that we can get information out effectively to people to help them participate and understand I'm also looking forward to adding some comments to that policy document because I think we'll have some good ones right that's it all right thanks Rita um so water quality I don't have anything to report this month um so let's move on to other commissions um um let's see um Ann Marson is absent so that's it for the Parks Commission and uh Dharma Ackman is absent so the Transportation Commission uh we'll hear from them
123next month uh or maybe in a few weeks actually since this is technically the February meeting so planning um Shannon filing commission updates we had a series of meetings canceled so we don't have a ton um to report here but there are a few things um one was uh that we were supposed to be working on the electrification ordinance but that has been stymied by a lot of things and so we're looking forward to that coming it is in the hopper um and then the other big one I think is the 415 West Washington uh project that the city is putting uh that the Ann Arbor Housing Commission is kind of shepherding through the entitlement process um and that it's uh it's a Brownfield site with floodway and flood plain and uh there's a lot
124of controversy in back and forth around housing and in that area um given the flood plain but also realizing that there's a lot of it's not a super straightforward thing because um it's very going to be very difficult to clean that site up unless there is some sort of development on it so it's one of those like really tricky sticky situations that's not easy to um not not super black and white there so that's still kind of um filtering through uh the process um so I know some folks on environmental commission have a lot of opinions about that too um so anyway that's that's that happened in this last stretch as well okay thanks Shannon um energy yes uh we canceled our February meeting for the reason that Shannon mentioned and that was that uh
125um we were planning on a joint session focusing on natural gas ban through uh change to our ordinance our zoning ordinance and um in our meeting next Tuesday we've got a number of things uh and some of these I think are important for the environmental commission we're going to get a report from Missy Stoltz about the community climate action Village and the fiscal year 24 and 25 budgets um I don't know if that's on the radar for this group but it seems to me it would be of interest um we're going to have the same presentation that Michelle gave today um we are also going to consider uh the resolution that was referred to energy commission um asking the city administrator to engage with the Michigan legislature and the Michigan Public Services Commission um to
126advance energy equity and resilience in uh the aftermath of the recent power outages that we've had um and um we're hoping that'll be interesting we're going to have a second reading of the performance transparency resolution so that will most likely go to a vote and then there's a new resolution um that is going to be considered as in first reading which is going to be in support of accelerated action on an ordinance to ban a natural gas ban in new construction given that it's been two and a half years and we still don't have anything in place and I think equally important included in that is going to ask for um support and devising and implementing interim measures that could incentify all electric construction the concern being that if we do Implement a natural gas
127ban we already have received a letter from the Home Builders Association saying that it's going to be challenged legally and we don't know if that legal challenge will be dismissed in one day or take three years to rectify so the question is what are we going to do in the interim so that we don't have an average of a project a month coming forward that is not going to be all electric so those are the things that are on our agenda for next Tuesday okay thank you John yeah I would urge everybody to watch this Commission meeting and um and track this I know these items were part of the uh of the legislative and policy document that the city council released back in December uh their major things as Matt brokoff told me two
128or three years ago when he's working on the Viridian project this sustainable construction is illegal in Michigan it is illegal sustainable construction is illegal and it's due to state laws not not local ordinances so um okay so uh uh now Council report um I know dharma's out of town so uh um Lisa um yeah so the main things are that Hansel approved a Brownfield plan for the Villages of Ann Arbor and uh that plan enables really it enables a blighted site that's the location of a capped landfill to be repurposed for residential use and an element of the Brownfield plan is 1.2 million dollars that's much needed to implement a very strong recommendation of the Lower Town traffic study which is to have a roundabout at Pontiac and duvaran that roundabout will be a ways
129incoming because the city has to apply for other funds um to make up the bulk of it um so and then next council meeting is when 415 West Washington the the kind of pre-entitled plan will come up and be voted on so that's sort of a heads up and I can't think of there may be more that was well yeah uh as as Mr steglis steglitz mentioned um council is working on those changes to the way the billing is done for commercial providers and that will be finally approved at the next upcoming meeting that's not really particularly controversial um and Council approved the extension of raas contract for another three years and four months to be collecting uh multi-family recycling okay thank you Lisa so um let's see so now we come to the chair
130report I have a quick question yes sorry um Lisa can you explain um the obviously in the Brownfield tax credits that were approved for the Village um as you just said there was 1.2 million dollars that was included for the roundabout um is there any problem in for example increasing the credit from 31 million to I'm just going to pick a number 33 million that would have enabled Robertson Brothers to fully Electrify the development and just as a as a matter of comparison the city received a grant for five hundred thousand dollars to Electrify 20 homes in Bryant and so I understand that money is not coming from the city's coffers and is not coming out of future tax revenues but it gives an idea that we're we're essentially willing to pay twenty five thousand
131dollars a unit to Electrify them and the question is would it have been possible to go to Robertson brothers and say we will sweeten the pie with our Bronco tax credit if you would fully Electrify the development including the 320 Garden Apartments we definitely did that um and Robertson Brothers seriously considered it and they were unable to come up with a figure of how much they thought that that would cost them and there they were also concerned about [Music] um Market uncertainties both rental market uncertainties and energy market uncertainties and how those would affect the competitiveness of those rental units on the market and so given the uncertainties and given that they were unable to um I mean it's not that they they just didn't they they were unable to come up with a figure
132uh in you know an outlay figure and then they were concerned about everything that remains uncertain even if they could figure that out and so that possibility just didn't go anywhere but I know that staff worked very hard to suggest that and Robertson Brothers worked very hard to think if they could do it I'm happy to welcome commissioner good Brandel to provide any other information that she remembers on that yeah I think you were more involved in the actual negotiations with them so um I know I know that the whole Market uncertainty was definitely a piece in terms of um the delays that all electric buildings seem to be experiencing with hookup um and then I think also just um and this is I guess my own interpretation that it's pretty hard to make these
133work if you haven't been designing them from the beginning with that um orientation and then it's hard at the Planning Commission level to kind of catch people later in the process to be able to have them transition that um as it really is a different order of operations for how you design um and I think people are getting the message and more people are arriving with that now um but that the honor when they first came to us it was I don't know a year and a half ago or something like that maybe um so you know they they pivoted on some things but they didn't on others um so I don't know if I if there's anything more he said I can't quite remember I think that's really really helpful to mention and I
134think it's also helpful to mention that it's not just that um you know developers are changing their mindset it's also that Planning Commission in OSI have really started to formalize a process where OSI comes in and provides feedback when staff are beginning to see these projects when planning staff are beginning to see these projects because they go they're they're sitting with staff for a long time before Planning Commission sees them and so at that stage that kind of collaboration so there was an extensive memo from OSI and Robertson Brothers but that process is happening earlier now than it was for the Robertson Brothers proposal and so and until we have some kind of um Universal formal requirement that affects all new development um that's it's still going to be hit and miss about the extent
135to which a developer um really takes that process seriously and lets it change what they're doing and I I have to give credit to Robertson brothers because we lack that requirement it came to them late and they made a lot of changes I know they didn't go all the way but they made a lot of changes yeah yeah I mean I hear out there in the community and the Building Trades that Ann Arbor has a bad reputation for just spending too much time going through a permitting process so anything that Council and staff can do you know to uh you know to consolidate the process and make it more efficient I would I think would be greatly effective for a lot of parts a lot of goals of the city has so um any um
136okay any other comments on that okay so um uh now we come down to the chairs report and I'm just going to say that it's become um obvious to us um um at least uh to uh the natural features working group and myself and Rita that there has not uh that with this has to do with the upcoming comprehensive plan you know there's been talk for years that the Master Plan update was going to happen um selection of a consultant was talked about a couple years ago but it hasn't it hasn't happened yet there isn't even a consultant assigned to help with this process and uh the commission the environmental commission was not um uh was not provided an opportunity to input so it's not really and and a lot of the natural features uh
137committee's work has been um has been shut down at what we'd perceive as the last minute because of this comprehensive Plan update and so City staff wants to fold you know the natural features ordinance suggestions that we've been working on for some 10 years at least um into the comprehensive master plan but it's a comprehensive plan but it's not clear how this engagement is going to happen so um I understand there'll probably be a steering committee so I think it would be good if Council and staff could try to clarify what um what they're going to provide for not just the environmental commission but other inputs from the commissions into the comprehensive planning process we have not been contacted at all up until now so I think that's a uh that's a gap that should
138be closed given that you know we are the organizations that are supposedly trying to integrate Community concerns and um and staff concerns and Council concerns so as a forum I think it's I I personally as the chair of the environmental commission I feel like this has been um um something that uh might cause more delays and inefficiencies than whatever you know anticipated uh uh you know whatever whatever is in whatever the thought process is here so I I'm just looking forward to getting some report um once there is a consultant and once there was a process developed about how commission inputs are going to be integrated into the planning process that's all and um let's see so um that's all I have to say uh are there any comments what people have maybe I don't
139see any hands up so let's move on to the report from staff yes thanks Steve um I have a few updates uh my first one was uh the comprehensive plan I'm just letting you know that uh once we have updates on that I will be keeping you updated on that process and letting you know of any opportunities for engagement with it um second update uh is that Ann Arbor is going to be celebrating its Bicentennial in 2024 which is very exciting um so we have both uh an internal uh and an external committee um that are planning activities and celebrations across the city um they we do have a website up at A2 bicentennial.org that you can keep an eye on for updates on that uh from OSI uh our next sustainability series uh will
140be on March 29th and that will be discussing home electrification uh in addition uh from June 4th to 10th will be a 2-0 week our annual event uh celebrating the 18-0 plan uh and we are looking for ideas uh for activities uh that can be hosted by OSI or collaborators have any ideas on that for entities we know uh and then finally uh the Ann Arbor 2030 District in collaboration with OSI has launched a new A2 area commercial solar program uh which is designed to help commercial properties in Ann Arbor and throughout the county access the benefits of clean renewable energy by providing one-on-one assistance to screen properties for four potential uh helping with the design and release of requests for proposals to qualified installers uh helping to review post installation energy bills and more
141so that program is now up and running which we're very excited about uh and those are my updates all right great thank you Sean um uh John you have John caller you have your hand up yeah Sean I was wondering if you had any more information about the trainings regarding the open meetings act I think everybody understood kind of the message that went out but left me with a lot of questions in terms of operations and working together so having those sooner rather than later would be great any information on that yeah thank you for that question uh so as far as I'm aware uh the clerk's office is planning for those trainings to happen uh in June um since the term limits for uh folks are expiring in May and so we're going to
142have some turnover across the commissions at boards um at the end of May uh so those trainings are going to be happening in June or possibly but sometime in the early summer okay thanks Sean any other questions for Sean you know I hear and see none so let's move on to the uh the next item on the agenda is items for the next agenda this would be for our uh Mar our March 23rd meeting so the ones that are up now are discussion of the Greenbelt millage uses with Remy long from Natural Area preservation department uh finalization of policy recommendations for 2024 which I mentioned earlier so we'll have to move quickly on that um and then there's a discussion of the 415 West Washington zoning application including presentations from Jerry Hancock and Derek de
143la court and I just want to remind people at this point that our bylaws say that we are are not supposed to comment on individual developments now we are supposed to work on on the city's policy on the city's General policy so this discussion of the 415 West Washington will focus on the flood we'll focus on the um you know uh strickling on the water uh on the on the on the protections from potential floods in the future okay I just want to emphasize that right now uh Brooks you have your hand up uh yeah for the next meeting since I'm new to the group would you like to me to do a short introduction so people know who I am in my background that's the next thing I was going to talk about so
144I'd like to welcome let's all welcome Brooks Curtis to the commission he was just appointed a few days ago and um yeah uh you have Laura Brooks for as long as you like okay um so I retired about two years ago from General Motors I worked there for almost 36 years doing uh mostly manufacturing engineering conveyor system designing the assembly plants managed a group of Engineers for a long time doing that uh developed all the corporate standards for conveyors trained people in other regions executed large projects in multiple cities and states and countries and and things like that so that was what Mike did for work um when I retired I knew I had more time so I started looking into doing they're getting more involved in the the city government type things which is
145why I applied for this commission and some of the other ones from my environmental background about 10 15 years ago I started doing ecological restoration work days starting at U of M and then with the city nap and I've continued to do that I'm currently the park Steward for nap at two parks bird Hills and sunset Brooks and I also support the park stewards on Miller nature area and Mullen nature area so spend quite a bit of time out there doing that I volunteer with some of the other organizations organizations like uh the County's nap which is same name but slightly different group in a variety give 365 in a variety of other groups that are like 10 000 trees and things like that just as different volunteer opportunities come up um and also I
146I got appointed to the Elizabeth Dean fund like a month or so before this one showed up so I I'm getting both and that first meeting is next week also so um anybody have any questions for me um not at this point um I'll give you a call so um I think one of the things is um we'd like you to think about which working group you would like to contribute to okay yeah I need to know a little bit more about them but we can talk about that and figure out where the what needs to be done yeah yeah I can share a document to you too with you and we can have a discussion about any questions you might have about the commission okay all right so um so the next item on
147the agenda there's the next scheduled meeting which will be March 23rd uh at 7 pm for our regular March meeting uh Rita you have your hand up I hope this will be a quick one um I was just since we're here Lisa I'm hoping that we can have an update at some point on the chapter 40 revisions and where it is stands in the city legal process actually we have that update and you should check in with Dharma Ackman about that she and Sean had a machine Mr Reynolds had a long uh Email exchange about that there are two paths forward uh commission council member Ackman is interested in shepherding this with you so uh I think she she's in Nashville right now which I think is a vacation or maybe it's work I don't
148know her dog went so that means vacation to me um so um I would follow up with her and and um get her thinking on how to move forward but I think the idea is to kind of shake it loose and not to enable staff review without waiting for legal review is what I think it's doing and if I don't know Mr Reynolds if you want to take something in there that was my understanding as well thank you okay that sounds like a path forward so um Anya you have your hand up yeah I apologize I can't do stuff through uh oh gosh I'm too thin um I had to hop into my car because I had a 12 30 I have to drive yeah yeah sure and could you I'm actually logged in on
149my phone to do you mind letting me in that way I think I mean but as if you are not a participant I'm not sure if it matters yes I just uh promote a panelist request too okay we have left on the agenda is the public comment period so okay you can okay listen that way I don't want to shorten people I know I I know um okay thank you very much so um so any more discussion on this agenda item nope I don't see any so um let's move our next item uh before adjournment is the public commentary so uh this is another opportunity for persons to speak for up to three minutes please call 888-788-0099 and enter meeting ID 963-9100-2023 again that number is 888-788-0099 meeting ID 963-9100-2023 this information is also displayed
150on the meeting agenda and video feed City staff will select callers that will raise their hand one by one using the last three digits of your phone number in order to electronically raise your hand to indicate your desire to speak please press star 9 on your phone you will hear an automated announcement that the host is allowing you to speak when speaking please move to a quiet area and mute any television or background sound so that we may hear you clearly please state your name and address at the beginning of your comments and be patient there can be a delay of up to 30 seconds to make a connection Sean is there anybody on our line yet well while we're waiting I'll just say that um I'll just say that we had a lot more
151public commentary before coven when we were in person our in-person meetings generally were attended by uh uh up from anywhere from five to 20 people so um I I just want to throw that out there that this may be another example of you know of online versus in-person interactions you know with the with the city with with the city because we had a lot of young people show up as well as as well as people from um you know from communities outside um you know the norm the normal channels so um is there anybody on our line yet Sean there is not okay well um in that case I'm going to declare this meeting adjourned at 12 19 sorry for the uh going over time thanks everybody bye-bye thank you