001into the Wednesday October 12 2022 electronic meeting of the Ann Arbor design review board this meeting is held electronically to protect public health and safety due to the covid-19 virus and to comply with orders issued by the governor the Michigan Department of Health and Human Services and or the Washington County Health Department we intend to conduct this meeting similar to an in-person meeting however please be patient if there are technical issues public comment will be via telephone only to speak during any of the public comment opportunities please call 877-852-5247 or toll-free 888 788-0099 and enter meeting ID 974-6174-9412 this information is also available on the published agenda in the Public Notices section of the city website and on the broadcast of this meeting on CTN Channel 16 at T channel 99 and online at www.a2gov.org
002watchctn the design review board is a volunteer resident board appointed by the mayor and confirmed by city council the purpose of the design review board is to Foster excellence in the design of Ann Arbor's built environment and to advise applicants on how a project can meet the spirit of intent of the downtown design guidelines first the applicant will have 10 minutes to present their proposed project to the design review board then the design review board will hold a discussion on the design of the project following the presentation and discussion members of the public are permitted to comment for up to three minutes hey Jeff ready for roll call ready for roll call yep uh board member Burns member Cooper president member Singleton president member Kinley president member Mitchell president uh member katarski president member Perkins
003member Ramson uh you you have a quorum I am here by the way I couldn't find the unmute button great thanks thanks camera so next up is approval of the agenda anyone like to move to approve that I will second all in favor of approving the agenda hi hi approved next up approval of the minutes from the July 13 2022 design review board meeting and move to approve I've got one got a second out there got it all right all in favor of approving the minutes hi hi approved okay next up regular business um so we're ready for 121 Catherine Street foreign promote the panelists uh Courtney may need a minute or two to get everyone um on the zoom call um but the um petitioners will have up to 10 minutes to give a
004presentation um and they also can show slides which I believe they're they're planning on doing once folks are um are promoted into the meeting the individual who's going to be running the slideshow um can put that together and start the slideshow and then I believe Jennifer Hall is going to start off with a few a few remarks and then um there will be a I think an architect from lbba who will be um sharing their screen and walking us through the visual images and I think that is um Jack Schroeder so that's that's what I know um let me pause here to see if Jennifer can tell us whether um you're full if you can tell whether your full team is um is is on the call or whether we still need to wait for
005another minute it looks like we're still in the process of promoting the only person I don't see is Darren McKinnon but everybody else is on and he's just here to answer questions so we can absolutely get started oh there there he is oh there he is great um so Jennifer um one of your team members may want to share their screen and while they're doing that you can start the presentation off by um if you'd like um or whom whomever is going to start us off with a little background and and um a short presentation on on you know what this what the history of the project is and then um we can walk through the slides and and whomever is going to be describing the slides can can then describe them okay great since
006we only have 10 minutes I'm gonna do a quick quick overview on our team we have two architects Ashley Wendella and Jack Schroeder from Landon bone Baker uh Donald Wesley Wendy carty Saxon and Aubry patino with Avalon housing uh Darren McKinnon uh with DMC and I think that's it on here um to answer the question about Jess Lita she is actually part of a Consulting Group ymj that's doing part of our community engagement and we might have folks that want to speak from our community Leadership Council that we've been working with it might also be on the call and so this project at Catherine is one of 10 city-owned sites uh the city is um asking the Housing Commission to develop as affordable housing so I think this is the second site we brought to
007the design Review Committee we brought 350 South Fifth I think a year or so ago so this is our second site this is much smaller project it's a six-story 67 unit with on-site community space as well and some public parking and I'm going to let the Architects talk about the actual design itself but the one thing about this building that's different than the 350 South Fifth is that being a historical black neighborhood and black business district we are working very closely with folks who used to live in this neighborhood and folks who still live in this neighborhood to make sure that we are both celebrating and honoring the history of what happened in this neighborhood as well as support folks that are still living in this neighborhood in the black community um and so they're
008those there's people who might be here to talk about that I can't tell who's in the audience and I will turn it over to Ashley and Jack to show the actual design of the building foreign are you able to share your presentation Jack I am working on it okay and you'll hear me too sorry I'm like yeah scrambling yep Jack we can we can hear you while they're bringing this up then I will further give more information till the the presentation is up uh the reason Avalon housing is also on this call is their code developing the site with us and all of the units are affordable to households at up to 60 percent of median income and Avalon will be providing the on-site services at the site as well okay you guys are on
009Jack okay and you guys can see the kind of aerial view that we're looking at okay great yep uh first off just thanks for having us and for your consideration um excited to share the projects with all of you um Jennifer hit some of these points uh we're at the corner of fourth and Catherine and Carytown District uh six stories proposed and 67 new units of housing 57 of which are one bedroom ten of them will be efficiencies or Studios um and the parking on site we're currently 18 spaces um and this is meant to offset some of the Lost parking uh that is part of the development we really like the aerial view here it kind of speaks to the scale and density of the surrounding area it's obviously a really vibrant Urban space
010you know it's our time on site has been really great sort of walking around and getting a feel for it and we feel like our proposal fits in but is still new it's still an addition it's still modern um a few photos you know I'm sure you're all well aware of the space but just to kind of walk through it really quickly this is the alley behind our site off of Catherine um this is the view along Catherine obviously it's just a parking lot now with the city there's these low brick knee walls um and then Fourth Ave is the historic Brick Street with the two entry points the existing parking lot and we're eliminating one of those and these are just more kind of broad contexts um the idea of scale the idea of
011material even the way the sort of openings March down the facades was something we were you know looking to kind of pull from um not necessarily replicate but but have a similar kind of Rhythm uh at our street front and jumping into some imagery we have masonry up to the third floor um and then the building steps back uh and then the additional three stories above are a sort of more modern as you can see a mix of white and and some kind of bright pop of color um at the base you know we know that we're kind of a larger building filling up this corner so we've broken the mass of that brick portion down uh in different spots along the facades and this is that kind of repeating window Bay we've we've made
012the winning Windows bigger a little more modern a little newer but we're still kind of doing this repetitive rhythm um obviously we're doing as much storefront as we can at the base acknowledging you know the vibrancy of the surroundings um yeah and I'll keep marching through here this is kind of a little bit more above our site uh this highlights the roof deck and community room that the residents will uh get to use um kind of rare in affordable housing but we're actually providing some private porches and obviously the shared porch people will be able to access these lower pieces as well so we love the idea of providing some connection to the exterior for these future tenants um this is a maybe a little over ambitious on the solar uh up here once we
013once we finish our mechanical design uh we'll see you know where we land but obviously the building is going to be all electric uh you know highly sustainable you know partially to uh fit within Ann Arbor's guidelines but we're striving to to take it even further um so we're really excited about that as well um just to jump into the site plan and planning a little bit um the front corner is the resident sort of public and shared space um both are entered off of Catherine um this just has Fitness community space Supportive Services offices kind of all the things that the residents that live above will need um the lavender space here is the future question mark space that Jennifer was describing that we're working with the local group to decide what what the
014best and highest use for this space will be but it's it's going to be sort of outside of the resident uses or could be isolated from the resident uses um we pulled the building back off of Catherine a little bit you know just to provide a little more kind of breathing room there it also helps us with our open space um but we think there's some opportunity for you know whatever activities are there to spill out onto the sidewalk over time and and liven that that stretch we've studied multiple kind of site layouts parking layouts um and have landed on this kind of straight shot through uh off of fourth Through the Alley um the parking as it's drawn now is is going to be all public even though it's kind of within our building
015it's really meant to serve the Carytown District the larger District um and we have this kind of connecting path that will let out towards the market um obviously we'll meet all the EV charging requirements um and EV ready requirements so moving up through the building this these are the elevators at the main level gets you up to the second and Beyond um as I said earlier there's mostly one bedroom units with a few efficiencies that kind of sprinkles throughout the building shared laundry third floor is is nearly identical we added one one bedroom and then you see at the fourth is where the space starts to step back and this is where that the sort of uh rain screens the the white uh facade starts at the fourth level and continues to March up through
016the building um obviously doing our best to stack and and be efficient with the structure and how the building will work um and then landing at the sixth floor and this is where you see this community building that that spills out onto the roof deck with a shared restroom um at this end um blow up of the typical residential units there's some fluctuation but these are kind of the simplest um plans modest you know efficient plans but also give a nice sense of home uh the one each like I said the one bedroom has the porch here a lot of light um just kind of shared open living and kitchen space and likewise in the efficiency there's a little bit of a kitchen bath Zone and then as you get out towards the facade there's
017some nice light and a large open space in the elevations there's there's not much more to talk about um than what I was kind of walking through with the 3D imagery um this just gives you a sense of the masonry up to that third level and then this portion above here's your roof deck the rear facade we're kind of expecting that we'll go to more of those the material that's colliding the upper floors at our side facades you know we're dealing with being pretty directly adjacent to the neighboring property so we've got some fire considerations so these facades do end up being pretty solid but we do still want you know this nice cladding and then you know we're even sort of picking up on some of those Bay moves um you know just through
018masonry relief at the sides um building section uh most of this just shows we were proposing a basement uh for service based storage uh all the things that these buildings don't always have it's just a little additional um breathing room we think uh so they can continue to use the space well here's the step back roof deck just gives you a little sense of how the how the building will work um and then I wanted to share with the group the rendering that we showed were from a previous package that we had sent to Jeff um this one updates and shows that that parking entry on this side as you guys probably know the site plans ever evolving so Zach we're still seeing your Philippine screen which screen um the building section oh okay one
019minute remaining do you see this image yeah okay um this is just an up-to-date air image that we you know it just kind of hot off the presses so this shows the parking entry and the storefront wrapping around uh onto Catherine um just a few small updates to to what you saw in the package that we delivered to Jeff and then I know there's some question of fiber cement as a acceptable or non-acceptable material I will try to rush here are you all seeing this image it's a different building no we're just seeing the uh rendered um up-to-date version okay that's um so this is a project that we did recently and we just wanted to show you quickly that what we're proposing is not a Hardy type board or Hardy plank it's a open
020system uh likely a Swiss Pearl or uh Phil Bonnet is a product that we use but it's it's a cleaner system you know there's a rain screen behind it the it's an integral system it's not painted highly durable um so we just had a couple of examples and and we can discuss that further with your comment this is some more images and and we're happy to share even more if that helps but uh and I think that's that's it okay as we head into discussion I imagine that and it's full to be able to return to the pages of the presentation Jack so you may just want to kind of get that up and ready um so as the discussion goes we're kind of looking at what we'll do what we're talking about does anybody
021want to start off the review board discussion I guess I'll start by saying that the staff comments mentioned the windowless facades on the North and the west and I was wondering what's your response to that is what your thoughts are we actually want to reserve that space for um some kind of art um there's some I'll let the Architects talk about the building reason for it but but we actually don't want to leave it exactly how it is we want it as a future art project our stairs move to those two sides as well and plan you know um and we're also dealing with kind of a higher level of fire rating at the zero lot line conditions um so we could penetrate those we'll have to look at you know much higher rated glazing
022um you know our tact was kind of to to make those solid and you know like Jennifer said hopefully use those for some form of public art um and you know we're not going to downgrade any of the material it'll still speak to the rest of the building um but I understand those you know especially when you're looking at that elevation directly could you share your screen with that elevation please I guess while we're talking about that elevation um do you have any views from the north wait you didn't include any any views from the North and which was a little bit frustrating to see the relationship of that building to um broncourt which is a very kind of treasured part of that um the carry tone area you talk I mean you do talk
023about it but we just there's no views I don't mean by an elevation but uh three-dimensional View yeah yeah we'd be happy to create you know more views it wasn't with any intention uh for sure you know it was um typically the design review board likes to see context around the site um so you know where the buildings are that are near it and what that relationship is both height and landmines so just for future preference and Tamara I think the other reason I would love to see that is just what the relationship on the ground is back there how it feels to be a public person parking in public parking there's a open space that is I think meeting the requirements but is that space usable and comfortable because it's enough area that it
024actually could be for a little bit of um resident use and it just feels like it's sort of stuck in between things and wondered if there were any ways to make that a more meaningful and usable public space um within the development I know you're juggling parking and all of those things um but that's that's one of the questions I had is like how do you envision that being an asset to the community foreign use it will be is probably for folks sitting out in a sort of a picnic table like area um but I it's a requirement under the code more than a um probably amenity to the building because we have the roof deck amenity that's going to be a lot nicer but it doesn't meet the open space requirements under the code
025it just means that we have that amenity as well as the porches that are available for tenants that I think will be used more widely as well as the inside Space yeah can you please look at the site plan so everyone can see what we're talking about I think Lori uh I take your point you know that we we need to Pro program that a bit more um you know I think if we think about seating possibly a little shelter you know something that can occur back here for better or worse I know Jennifer we've talked about this could likely be a place where people have a smoke you know I mean it we need to situate that and we'd rather it not be on the street so our thought is that this becomes sort
026of a yard for the for the resident group um but you're right for now it is a bit of a placeholder where we're really just trying to hit our Square footages so we do need to get back into the design there and um think a bit more about how that functions to clarify that's all public parking is that right so it's also a public gathering spot that's not for residents from what you said you know the whole thing go ahead sorry so it's currently uh as you probably know the a public parking lot and so as part of our community engagement process from a couple years ago what we heard strongly from the community what we actually heard the whole full spectrum of you shouldn't have any parking on this site to you need to
027preserve as much parking as you can and don't get rid of any of our parking but we support affordable housing here so we're really trying to be compromised and meet um all those Expectations by preserving as much parking as we can it's actually going down from about 50 spaces to uh 18 we might be able to get up to 19 or 20 as we re-configure things but that's really what we're trying to do is is keep as much parking as we can while making it a um space that it makes sense for the residents as well I know you're sort of in a push-pull with that the city wants to minimize parking but I assume that will be paid public parking so is there any gesture toward I mean there are going to be residents
028who have cars there and they won't be able to park in those is there some consideration for parking availability and like the Anne Ashley structure or something I concentrate on parking but having a parking lot adjacent to a building downtown Ann Arbor I know what a challenge that can be for control yeah the the intent is actually to um very likely it'll be at least space to the DDA and the DDA will be the one that manages the actual parking uh itself but the intent is to actually have two dedicated spaces for electric vehicles that are shared by residents uh what we find with our um single adult population at our sites that we own as well as at Avalon own as very few people have vehicles and so that would give people the option
029of not having their own personal vehicle and having to pay for that insurance and have that cost and so we'd have these uh shared vehicles that are just for the residents sure thank you yeah no problem getting back to the um glazing on the North or lack of glazing on north and west it it's where the two star towers are in um for security reasons it would sure be great to get some natural light into those spaces um and I wondered if the zero lot line uh fire separation requirements are the same on the west as they are on the North and if there might be opportunity to get some glazing in at least the I guess it's the southwest air Tower yeah we take that point I think we can we just know it's
030going to be a little pricey but it's not definitely not impossible and we do like the idea of light into those egress paths um encourages more use like you said a little more secure um and and you know it would enliven those those edges maybe we can you know play with the rhythm of it or you know figure out what we can do I was gonna make the same comment and I think on the North one you could um put it in the East end of it um I think right the East End of the wouldn't have to be the north side yeah right yeah you could yeah which wouldn't you wouldn't have the lot line issue there what's what has what's the rating have to be to put glazing in that two hours type
031situation but we don't need active air there so I think we could figure it out well the simplest solution although you're introducing something else is to use uh rated glass block certainly the brick area good just but I agree getting some natural lighting would be good yeah I have a couple thoughts on the view from the corner I think the eye level view from the corner Maybe if you could go there can you see I just pulled it up can you see it no not yet oh my gosh this is new to me uh it feels like the format's a little different there we go there you go oh we got it okay so I think in general the the I think it does respond well to its context maybe it'll come back it just
032vanished um in terms of the scale of the lower portion of the building and the lightness of the upper portion of the building to me they are two very different buildings the bottom section has very nice proportions I like the treatment of the windows the patterns you've developed the top aside from the yellow really has not much in common with that to tie the two together and um so while I think the distinction between the base and the top um is nice and helps it fit its context I wish that either the language on the bottom could extend a bit more on the top or vice vice versa so they worked together more cohesively it almost looks from this view like you're looking at a different building that's behind this building uh yeah that would
033be attention um I agree with that a little bit and for quite a bit and it's almost like when you look at the Lower Side you're looking at the charcoal gray and uh and gold or orange building slightly behind the brick and you might think of the upper part as being the same charcoal gray and and orange extending up instead of such a drastic difference between the very light palette on the top and the darker palette on the bottom Gary you're suggesting that the concrete panelized system be a similar value or color to the gray is that what you're saying I said that might help yeah I had slightly different take on the site I I understand you know you're trying to do with the color and pulling it down but I agree with the
034comments so we're just made that it seems a little it's like a gesture um I would I think you have put in a little bit of um nice detailing into the brick which is you know very contextual with what's around it but it's it's also not [Music] um it's still modern um but I appreciate some of the detailing you put in um the capping and a little bit of soldier course at the bottom and the Sills um I would I would um I would get rid of the orange um in those window panels and actually I think it's just what Garrett I think if I understand what Gary just said that's um of just pulling some a little bit more of a muted pad um palette above um but to keep the the base a
035little bit more um quieter contextual to that area um and then but you know I like the liveliness of the upper part I am you know love I love color and bring color into downtown but it's yeah it just seems a little bit uh seasoning is like a little more work so if if I understand it correctly the rain screen on the upper portion those panels will be attached and because it's a rain screen they don't necessarily have a closed reveal or a they're not a butted there's a slight slight Gap so if you got up close you could actually see through to the presumably dark rain screen are you going to have surface Fasteners that would be visible or will these be hung without a visible fastening um both options are possible Gary um
036we have done you know the interesting thing is these are exposed Fasteners on this project and you and you really don't even know they match so closely and you know it's it's a full shop drawing process so you don't even really hook up on them and that is a you know a more affordable option so I expect that we would expose Fasteners but it would be in keeping with what you see here they they come from the manufacturer they match their durable um but they do have a hung option the system just gets a little deeper and and a little more costly I do like the projecting frames just as a question to relate to what's I've seen already in town is this system the rain screen system similar to what Fitzsimmons is building on
037Miller or the Morningside development down in Lower Town those are those rain screen panels is that how you define I'm asking actually the rest of the panel because you lbba may not be familiar with the two of projects I'm talking about but they are panel systems like that and I wonder if that's what we're going to be observing everybody under know what I mean by the Fitz yeah I think I don't know if their range screens or not Bill okay it's large panels and the Morningside the Morningside buildings which are really taking over the corner of what is it Maiden Lane or Wall Street Maiden Lane and Plymouth that's a sea of that same kind of panel I'm wondering if that's what we're observing I'm going to pay it more attention to those now there's
038nothing but those those panels on those buildings so you is the are the upper levels the white panels we see you mentioned Swiss Pearl is that under consideration there yep that that's the manufacturer of the the the other project of ours that I've been showing you those are Swiss Pearl and then it's actually that's actually a mix and we and we went to Sil Bonnet on the sides it's a little more affordable um but same thing it's integral color and you know the material is the same all the way through it's not a cement panel that's painted this is you know the full panel is that is that color we use Swiss Pearl on a museum project recently and and it's really high quality real precise good fastening system and it's it's a great product
039we love my shop drawing process too yeah you know it it allows for a lot more control and like you said really precise install and looking at the South facade and the upper levels I I know you're worried about sun exposure on in in those areas but I I wonder if you've done a shade analysis and if those sunscreens are going to be as effective as you want them to be it it seems like they're only going to work midday during a high sun in the summer um and then that self aside will take a beating from some exposure so did have you looked at other options for screening those upper level windows we've not dug in that deep on that yet you know for now these are sort of placeholders and we're even exploring
040the possibility of doing PV on those canopies you know which we thought would be interesting but but no to optimize location depth we haven't gone to that level yet but we will um that's a good note and I guess it would be good to note that we have a green consultant on the project who's advising on sustainability and there will be a complete energy model um done that'll include Sun analysis so I think that's something that will continue to explore when one thing I wanted to point out that that we don't often see that I really like about this or the sort of vertical breaks that you have um in the lower three levels they're equally spaced in three base Denver levels have a two they don't align with the lower which at first kind
041of bothered me but um but I've grown to like it but the those horizontal visual speed bumps are are kind of nice and um I like that that's a nice feature something that we we do often I think kind of in urban landscape I I think it does help speak to a you know a true old uh neighborhood in a way yeah it just helps break it up visually yeah we have elevations are they reflecting that those those gaps are dropped actually which I really like also I think your elevations show them going oh are they just straight straight oh yeah which just yeah just doesn't look nearly as nice yeah you're right those should drop down that's just yeah a drawing here thanks for finding that up but I agree with um dick about
042um same thing I was like what some of the lineup and then it's like no they really shouldn't no there there is an intention to the two pieces feeling different but I hear the group you know there could be more of a tie whether it's in proportion or color um we can continue to refine that have there been any consideration for using the open space as an alternative to usable public gathering space because there is some of that around the neighborhood using it for storm water management and collection it may not cover all the quantity but to have that as kind of a performing landscape within the project would be a nice demonstration bring some more intense green to the area I think that'd be great Lori I think it doesn't from my understanding hit
043their Mark for what open space is I think it needs to be sort of usable right actually I mean or at least occupyable but I mean I think I think that'd be great if it could be a little more depressed you know and have sort of a garden rain Garden piece because we you know we will have some storm water work to do on this site it's pretty tight you know we're there's not a lot of open area here so um we could ask but I I at least from what we've heard so far I don't I think they want it to be depliable thank you John has his hand up uh yes thank you um I'm gonna have to leave soon but I wanted to make some comments uh I love the project I
044love the public housing project being right downtown right next to the market and that is awesome uh I love these shared Zip Cars the electric Zip Cars that that I understand for the the tennis that's that's uh that's great uh uh I um I however agree with uh Lori and Gary that the there there seems to be um a a sharp uh uh jarring uh uh view between the lower and the and and and the upper uh and and I think that uh Gary had an idea a good idea if that was darker um I do love the brick tying in with the architectural building that's right next door so I really think that you know uh I I think this is just my first impression that it it the you know the bottom is
045great and the top well I may need to get used to it but uh I think if you can um um uh Tinker with it and it sounds like uh that you're you're planning to do that um I am a representative from the art commission so I would like to speak a little bit about those brick recesses that uh you're planning for uh for public art uh I think it's great um and I don't know what your plan is uh Jennifer does exceptional Outreach so uh you know public art is a hot button uh you have a number of recesses so you can kind of spread it around a little bit and um I would encourage you to think about a kind of a rotating type of gallery and rather than a mural that's on
046the building and I imagine you would you're planning to to have something attached to the building uh that um there are these um uh high pressure laminate panels I know that's it's produced in in New York that they're awesome and if you could kind of um take a q off of embracing our differences I don't know if you're familiar with that or not but it's a public art project that encouraged a local artist I mean from grade school to uh to Penny stamps to practicing um you know artists uh to submit art and they then transferred it to these these large canvases which are then uh placed in Parks through the summer um and uh it's just awesome uh they have tours um and uh but what I really like that they have done is
047when uh the show was down this month they have looked for places that would want to adopt that art those canvases and so they're going into you know Eastern Michigan University the University of Michigan so all of this artwork that's done by local artists and it doesn't have to be necessarily local but all levels of artwork and it's uh Purdue used and it's displayed and then it's distributed in the community and next year there's going to be more artworks and you might want to think about in adopting that kind of a a process and particularly if you use these high pressure laminate panels uh you know you could put them there they're not going to be there forever so um but again I would you know encourage you to um you know I mean I
048don't need to do that uh Jennifer knows how to do that so well so she gets the Outreach get everyone in one question I did have is uh that at one time I thought um uh and you can correct me if I'm wrong Jennifer wasn't there a plan to have um uh some sort of place for artists uh practicing artist that would get um you wanted to have a creative Community where where are you going to have artist tenants and then there were going to be galleries below was this the project Jennifer that you were planning yes um so that is one of our um design ideas and um use of space ideas so we're still working with the community to see if those those ideas hold and if that's what we want to do
049and so that first floor space that's not dedicated to the residents it could be Gallery it could be a cultural space it could be a mixture of different uses it can be additional community space and we're looking at the possibility of having half the units dedicated to um and reserve for people who are in the creative field you don't necessarily have to be making a living doing that but you know people who um that that's something that they're passionate about or that they may be living doing awesome I think it's great um but in any event uh to me it's a spectacular project um you know I would tweak with the top of it a bit um that uh but I mean the plus is far outweigh any of the the the the small uh
050criticism that I might have and I I love the recess bricks as kind of a public art gallery and would encourage you to uh test out some uh a rotating uh kind of uh uh Gallery uh along the lines of embracing our differences so that's all I have thank you so much I apologize I have to go pick up my wife I'm so sorry uh but um uh thank you for including me this is uh this is awesome and and by the way uh with the art commission we're willing to help in any way we can to suggest ways of of how you might want to uh um uh deal with it whatever we can do who we stand stand ready to help thank you so much thank you John hi John hi John I
051think I just it's sort of a small comment but um and I'm not sure what you could uh if you could accomplish it but I really hate seeing an office on an um Street you know right on the street like that um it just seems like whenever we have those downtown people just pull their Shades and it's not any you know even a conference room usually you can look in and you can see people and um but things like offices typically will just get pushed something up against the window and pull their Shades down so I don't see I know you're you're working on a pretty small footprint um and I don't see any obvious way to do that but I just wanted to make that yeah I that's I totally hear you on that
052that you do you see those offices always seem to be either empty or sort of closed off I think here that's the project or the the property manager so the idea of they've got some eyes on the street and the entryway and you know there's it's more about kind of visual connection and coverage so um we'll talk to Avalon and see because I do take your point you'd rather have something more outward facing uh along those those streets it's a small office but yeah I don't know if you've um been by our site at Miller Manor but one thing that we did is we put um uh pictures uh like so the glasses there but we um I don't know how they did it they put some kind of laminated pictures on there so that
053you can see out but um people can't really see in and then there's different visuals um of what people are seeing from the street side I don't know if that would be something that you think would be uh useful here we haven't really talked about it but it just occurred to me while you asked why you said that I think it's another art opportunity very exactly it's a hard opportunity yep okay I have a comment I'm I'm sure the outlier here and the non-architect in the group but back to the comments about whether the Upper Floor should be darker I'm going to go against the Green and say I I appreciate the fact that the upper floors are lighter and I it is in in the context of something else on that block uh the
054project that goes from Main Street over to what is it uh fourth um the buildings that another that Simmons had developed it but the lower part yeah you see the the buildings that face each other that are Northwest of this building on the same block they have the lower part there the lower part is Brick the upper part is light color I've always driving by I mentally thought that's actually pretty cool when you during the day the light upper floors tend to sort of go away against the sky if they were dark color I think they would Loom and so again I'm the I'm the that gets going against the grain but I like the notion if you're driving around look at that project the light colors don't dominate The Brick really stands out in
055the light colors during the day just sort of fade into the sky I would hate this project so personal to have that Upper Floor be very dark I think already you have it sort of looming I can use that term over the brown cork to the north and whatever that building is to the West um just for what it's worth I don't I don't know that I agree with that whole upper level being dark well I would agree with you on that too I think it's a solution to tying the top and bottom together but it has it has its drawbacks and I think I would agree that the lightness um of that is is welcome when you're adding that much mass to this into my neighborhood is a solution to bring the white down
056to where the gray is as opposed to bring the gray up to where the white is foreign I sort of like the Dual existence too I agree with um with Bill that this neighborhood was warehouses and and it grew organically as as the need arose and and so there's there's a bit of a hodgepodge and you know the marketplace filling across fourth as the white swan element and then uh poor contemporary building behind in that Silo element and um and it's it's a nice mixture of architectural elements so I I and I agree I I sort of like it the way it is and I do like the the tie of the similar color from the lower three floors to the upper three floors you know they're so those two elements are are so different
057but the orange color if it stays orange um is a really good tie I think between the two so I'm I'm I like the solution I think it it works pretty well and is responsive to that warehouse District of Carytown you know it seems like we all kind of generally really like like this project and um you know it's just some balance of uh how much they tie together um I've been thinking that that orange at the lower just it's especially with all the art you're talking about seems like it's going to be quite busy and um not that I dislike what I'm looking at but um just seems like you're going to have art all you know around which would be wonderful but they're awesome as Jen says but um I think yeah I
058think we have some ideas I mean I I think these are all you know it's kind of there's some different perspectives here but I could see less of the orange at the lower point you know so there's still some tie but maybe it's a little jumpy as it is and I think Lori you were talking when you were talking about the upper level maybe a little bit more about proportion or you know these These are kind of punched openings whereas the first floor has these tied together things so maybe we can they can speak to each other a bit more but but then there's also support for them feeling kind of different so I'm hoping we can land somewhere in the middle uh and I don't mean to misinterpret you know what we're hearing but
059um I I I've got some ideas personally kind of Brewing um what you one thing that you mentioned is something that or maybe this isn't what you meant but that's been in my mind is the kind of thickened frame around the punched Windows having kind of a similar response to the edges of the brick um on the lower level something where like even if it's a different proportion the detail kind of picks back up in some way um on my color so I I think this is a really it's it looks like a very quality building it looks like it's you know market rate housing it doesn't look like affordable housing like you're seeing pop-up and and other cities the one thing that makes me hesitant on the color is that it that is one
060of the things that I feel like I'm seeing over and over and over again in Chicago and elsewhere this kind of oh we'll make it playful and then you'll think it's nicer than it is somehow and I'm worried about the timelessness of it that's my concern is that you know is what will this be in terms of the time listings because the neighborhood is has endured the test of time in terms of the quality of the materials and the character so um maybe a little less might be um a little more sustainable for that over time I like what you just did if we go back just for a second to the north and west sides those two the solutions you've mentioned aren't particularly first of all correct me if I'm wrong on the left
061hand side the brick with the panels above those are basically all in the same plane aren't they right at the lot line there's no setback is that right north side yeah at the North side you know aside from the backyards of the yeah at the alley side at the outside they're more visible so those are a more likely sort of Art Space I know there's a discussion about uh having art on those upper floors having mural just done recently on the on the West Side you have an alley you could run a boom truck up from that and and do some work on it but you're going to be able to see that from Main Street you're going to be able to see that upper part that's that's that part is going to be very
062visible from Main Street over the adjacent buildings same thing to the north the buildings on Brawn Court are basically what story and a half buildings they go up about to that point and that's it so the main view from people coming and going from Carytown is this this wall that is going to be you can do it you can run a swing stage or something and do a mural in the upper part but I'd like to see Jennifer and everyone else address just what will happen on that um particularly that wall in the upper part of the West if it is guaranteed to be a mural that's great uh if there's some other kind of system I'm an architect but something that will make sense I think John katarski made some suggestion maybe he was
063talking about those recessed brick panels there or maybe some art or something or other to break it up but that that should be an interesting feature certainly on the west upper lower part is going to be against the alley and other buildings but that North is going to be very very visible and it's worth spending a little more time letting us and the public know what is going to be what's going to be there um we are also working with the Arts Alliance which they do both Housing Development um and you know mixed use mixed income all kinds of different development and they had some very interesting ideas about similar to John about the type of material and how you incorporate art in many different ways into the building and we haven't gotten to that
064level of specificity mostly because we want to bring the community into that process rather than make it part of the site plan itself but maybe there's somewhere somehow we can at least show the intent of the space not what the art itself will look like like I don't want to get ahead of the community and have us you know draw some kind of art on there oh I I totally agree but it brings up another question about that rain screen system if it is decided that's going to be a painted mural how do those how do those panels accept paint long term it would probably have to be attached uh you know just kind of uh what John was saying like a sort of panel system um but I think we'd it'd be good to
065think about how they attach you know if this is going to be part of it whether it's in the masonry or the panels I I don't we've done we actually just finished a project with a mural that's directly on the brick and it's beautiful but it's permanent you know I mean the idea of it being able to change and update I think is really interesting so I think we can you know Jennifer maybe study where these things could go without defining what it is yeah you know um yeah and I don't think with that providing the infrastructure to accept the system if at all possible that that's readily available would be great for the you know community and the manager and the team to be able to get that to mobilize if it's you know
066two years out from construction or something I think the idea of it being able to change is really exciting too you know if this is sort of an Arts based community and it you know maybe there's an ongoing group that has banded together it's such a great group that you guys have formed Jennifer and kind of put together if that if if that group can continue to kind of you know update this on a yearly basis or two years and bring in a you know a new artist that has a different voice and I I thought that was really exciting I wonder about a projected image check it obviously wouldn't work during the day but you've got that great big white wall there so that'd be easier on the attachment side for sure yeah in
067the rotation side but you do see some really awesome versions of that these days the projected stuff that's a completely unrelated question hey do you have I'm never I'm not familiar with polymer windows have you used those what what mentions on your on your site those are a highly sustainable triple grade type of window there's a manufacturer we've been in contact with and we've used similar windows on other projects that are trying to achieve a really high level of energy um sustainability and the envelope so that's what's that's describing so this this is the glazing it isn't the framework it's the glass the polymer would be the would be the frame of the window and the triple blade Okay the reason I thought it indicated polymer and I thought replacement for glass now there's something
068no no it would be the frame and I couldn't really tell you more about the material than that I have one more detailed thing the storefront along Catherine and fourth yeah it appears to be rendered in a way that the um frame comes right down to grade and you might want to consider a little bit of a knee wall there um with salt and other de-icer chemicals it could be pretty rough on aluminum frame um and and typically you'll see a 12 or 16 inch knee wall where there aren't door openings good point it helps with electrical inside and a number of things too you know just drainage planes so I think sometimes I really it's a hopeful we like the idea of it going going to ground but yeah it's not the most rational
069move yeah and and I think it was Lori brought up that it'd be great to see a view like this looking from the north um because I I really do wonder about the impact on on Brown Court to the north that was Tamara okay I know you don't have that they have a scammer sorry yeah sorry we don't it we just don't didn't develop that side those views yeah these as some of you probably know these views can kind of eat time and get them to get them just right so but but we will kind of rotate around I think that that's a good idea do you know the dimension just you know from the one of those houses to the ear wall what is that is it 10 feet or um I don't have
070a survey actually do you still have that I know we were looking at it I don't have it in front of me but I can open it in the background and see if I can find a dimension yeah that way these guys don't have to watch me hunting through the files all right I'm just I'm just curious it'd be a good thing to have for planning at your next meeting okay um the main reason we have the zero lot line on that north side is due to the DTE power lines that you can't see in this uh rendering which are very very close to where our original uh building uh design was for safety reasons we wanted to step it back away from that Catherine curb which you know pushed us closer to that North
071Lot line where we originally had an alley in there now that sort of alley is moved into the middle of the you know between the parking lot area and the building which actually made it a lot more functional we thought um and it just made more sense when we did that if those are there then we're not planting trees underneath them and can you think about that streetscape um having more green at grade uh with the path on the inside and get get some of that to work because otherwise it's going to be just Hardscape and I think the trees alone would have been nice but you're probably not going to be able to do that that's nice um the one of the broncourt buildings looks closer to our property line than the others so
072the worst case scenario that one is just over three feet away but the more typical condition is more like 10 10 to 16. and there were previous versions not that this is any relief but that we looked at like a U-shaped building or something even more sort of densely packed and at least wanted to allow that Court to exist at the back stuck to the fourth and Catherine sides Laura are you saying you don't like L-shaped trees I don't think I've ever met an L-shaped tree I'm just looking at the one where the DTE probably cut the branches out so it looks like it yeah so I went today that was like a tea yeah beautiful fall color right now on the t-shaped tree I think it could be kind of a cool design problem
073though to figure out something low scale you know not not you know something that's tall some sort of shrub that's still not going to threaten the lines you know some raised Planters or something we'll have to work with the DDA on it anyone else have comments or questions we can open it up to I mean public attendees nice job I just wanted to have a chance to just Briefly summarize um uh my my staff comments um one of them had to do with with material I'm going to encourage um lbba to to look at the code sections of the unified development code which refers specifically to materials that um are permitted uh in this particular location in which are are are are not so I'm going to encourage you to look at those um with
074regard to the blank walls uh I think the it sounds like the Western Wall would be really ideal for um a public art display whether that's permanent or or temporary the north wall is more challenged it's right on the property line uh I think it would be really hard to to do art on that side and it would be hard to um to access that side um and so I think that Western Wall seems to be maybe more appropriate for um um that that type of display um I also want to point out that there will be challenges to constructing a wall directly on the property line unless you have permission from the property owners to the north to use their property for construction so I'm just hoping that you're thinking about that through the
075process um that that that is a challenging Endeavor so you may want to think about that or maybe make contact with the property owners to the north about obtaining a temporary easement or permission to to use a portion of of of that sign um with regard to the height you're looking at a building that Peaks out at 72 feet probably maybe more like um um 65 to 68 feet the top of the cornice level that's pretty imposing uh to the area to the north and so the staff Port indicated that you might want to think about some kind of a step down to allow more light to get in um or even create a little bit of a setback maybe a five foot step back to to to be less you know uh to be
076less imposing um and then the other one build on that comment real quickly I mean it would change the plan but it might be interesting to think about that elevated space on that North End the outdoor patio space on the North End overlooking the farmers market versus the intersection just something to think about if there was a way that that fit the program um it would do that it would perform the same function of stepping it down and then it would also give you kind of a nice access to that really Lively afternoon or you know weekend and weekday spot right um and then my last comment had to do with the um um pedestrian entrances to the building the design guidelines does do call for pedestrian entrances to be clearly demarcated clearly visible um
077and um when I when I looked at it the the entrances didn't stand out much and so I'm one so my recommendation was to consider that and to consider creating um a clear um delineation about where those inferences are so though that's a quick summary of of um of my comments anything else all right all set yep so um with that we can move into um I guess public comment comes later so next up is um unfinished business do we have anything under unfinished business I think we don't we typically have a public comment just for the project right now and then the general public comments at the end of the meeting I thought we had two but the agenda does not outline oh okay all right yeah we did we did build that in
078um so we can follow up on that for the next time did do we have any unfinished business no okay we'll move on to Communications anything on Communications nothing for me all right so we are following up the project with the public health is there to raise a question you can raise your hand I'm not able to even see who all is um there don't appear to be any additional callers at this time okay all right I'll just skip it one more second make sure that um we don't have anyone calling in on the phone line which might take a little bit of time to get orchestrated um Lori while we're waiting for that um let me know if you wanted me to summarize what I heard in terms of board member comments I think
079I was going to summarize those comments immediately after the meeting and then you all could say yeah that summary is accurate or no why don't you add this and then I think you could all sign off on that I think that was what we were doing a year ago or so when um uh when we had done this let me know if you want me to do that I would think that would be yeah beneficial both to the one from the public um to just kind of get a conclusion since we always have a little bit of back and forth on different perspectives yep so it doesn't look like we have any questions so Jeff why don't you go ahead with your summer okay um camera started us off I'm sorry I just want to
080jump in real quick because I know when I uh suggested how folks could join I thought they could join either online or by phone so just making sure is that in fact the case if someone were raising their hand you'd be able to see even if they're in the waiting room yes that's correct okay perfect sorry just wanted to make sure that all right Jeff go ahead okay uh camera started us started us off um uh asking for a three-dimensional view of the uh north wall to give us a better sense about how that north wall interfaced with the uh smaller home smaller buildings um to the north of his site um Gary supported that concept and um I talked about his concern about this six six story tall blank blank wall at the property
081line um Lori talked about uh the relationship um uh uh at the ground level to the public spaces uh Open Spaces um once you she wondered how the Open Spaces will be used so uh petitioner was able to talk to us a little bit about that uh Bill talked about the public parking that's proposed I believe it's about 18 spaces on the north side of the first level uh he wondered where uh residents would uh be able to park um and who might be controlling and managing uh that parking field dick talked about the lack of glazing on this on the stair Towers uh he thought that getting natural light into the stair Towers would be a positive for safety um um concerns and and otherwise and you know he wondered whether we can increase
082glazing on the North and the West uh walls uh camera um uh supported that thought that glazy on the North side too would be beneficial um bill came up with a suggestion to consider using um rated glass block to allow light in and um still be able to address uh fire issues uh Lori um talked about the view from the corner um she talked about I believe this was the southeast Corner uh she talked about two the two different sections of the building the upper section and the lower section uh you thought that it had created a nice um Rhythm um she thought that it would might be possible to consider maybe tying both these sections together a little better I got the sense from the architecture team the design team that they they would
083uh maybe do a little rethinking about that um Gary um Gary agreed with that um camera um talks about the color um she um liked the the gesture of the the Brick which is complementing the historic character of the of the neighborhood um and um and uh Tamara thought that um uh the that the orange um um you know the orange touch might need to be rethought a little bit um and I think that that might mean in terms of not necessarily that color versus another color but um how how that um splash of color is actually presented um um Gary had questions about the Fasteners um he liked the projecting frames of the um Upper Floor Windows um Bill had some questions about the rain screen panels um dipped off talked about the Swiss
084Pearl the white panels um he also asked about the shade analysis on the South Side wondering if if those um Shades um you know made a lot of sense um we thought they would really work you know midday during the peak summer solar season uh other times um maybe not as much um and um he also talked about uh the breaking up the side referring to the to the to the indentations as uh speed bumps and he thought that there was a nice toxin that helped to break up the facade along along the street um um Lori talked about um or wondered whether the Open Spaces that are shown on the site could be used also for stormwater management um John really liked the concept he liked the Zip Cars he um he also agreed
085with um this notion that there's a sort of a Sharp jarring contrast between the upper and lower floors we talked about the recesses being great on the North side um he liked the idea of a rotating art gallery or the building being able to accommodate art that would be rotating um he's familiar with high pressure laminate panels that um he thought the petitioner might want to consider um he had a question about a plan for practicing artists and indicated that um uh the the art commission would be um happy to engage with the Housing Commission staff or with the design staff to discuss the ideas of of art further um Tamara didn't like to see office uses on the street level um in a in in the downtown area um I I got a sense
086that she was concerned about how that interfaced it's um sort of creates you know uninteresting space um and um uh Bill talked about um uh the Upper Floor he appreciates a lighter Upper Floor collar um and he he pointed out that um the building that Tom Fitzsimmons did on Main Street also has sort of three stories of brick and then an upper floor that that is lighter in color uh Lori agreed with Bill um dick um also agrees with glory and appreciated the contrast between um the upper and lower floors Tamara um uh said that uh sounds like everybody generally likes the um likes the project Laurie indicated the um or had brought up the issue of the color worried about the timelessness um and that indicating that a little less um might be better
087over time um and um let's see Bill talked about uh the north and west walls what would happen to those walls talk about the rain screen system um and and wondered whether they can handle murals uh Lori talked about um the design being or the building being designed to accommodate art to accommodate murals um on on the particularly on the blank walls Bill wondered about the polymer windows and um uh dick also indicated that he'd really like to see a view uh from the north side and how the the six-story building will interface with the with the you know two-story building buildings on the uh on on the North side which um meant that he was agreeing with Tamara's recommendation so that's what I have um written down let me know if I've missed anything
088just a few things yeah there's a robust discussion and this this time and it does not reflect a more concern on our part about the building I think in general everyone was really pleased with what they were seeing so this is these are details and um to continue to to hopefully make a project better for the community so with that I just have one quick comment that is to tell Jeff that how much the taxpayers appreciate that the planning department really is running a low budget operation now it's about as low as it's going to get yeah you get service a furnace while you're there so okay anyone want to call for adjournment or do I just do this myself you could just do it no I'm gonna do it then okay this meeting is
089adjourned thank you all right thank you everybody thank you yep thank you