Ann Arbor Historic Distrtict Commission Meeting 3-10-22

001welcome to the thursday march 10 2022 meeting of the ann arbor historic district commission this meeting is being held in person for members of the commission and for applicants who have elected to also come in person it is also being broadcast electronically for applicants who are not in person and members of the public who would like to participate uh public comment will be via telephone only to speak during any of the public comment opportunities please call 888.788.0099 or 213-338-8477 and enter or you can do it in person oh yeah sorry that's implied but you said yes telephoto oh yes well public comment um this information is also available on the public published agenda in the public notes section of the city website and on the broadcast of this meeting on ctn channel 16 at t

002channel 99 and online at www.a2gov.org forward slash watch ctn miss thatcher will you please call the role commissioner ross president commissioner willis president commissioner white here commissioner rocklin here commissioner fortner here commissioner epperson here commissioner quijano here we've got a quorum nice to see everybody yes welcome everyone all right on to adam c approval of agenda are there any additions deletions or changes to tonight's agenda i believe we received an updated one just recently yeah item four uh f4 was removed from the agenda because that petition was withdrawn by the applicant so we have three hearings tonight tearing and seeing no objections to the agenda it is proved as presented onto item d public comment this is an opportunity for persons to speak for up to three minutes about an issue that is not listed

003as a public hearing on this agenda to comment on such other preservation preservation matters please call 877 853 city staff will select callers that have raised their hand by using the left one by one by using the last three digits of your phone number in order to electronically raise your hand please press star 9 on your phone or they can come up to the podium or come up to the podium if you are in the auditorium kristen do we have any callers no callers have indicated you can see no one in the chambers i will now close the public comment portion for tonight onto item e unfinished business there is no unfinished business so we'll move into the hearings item f1 524 first street this two-story gable fronter features gable corner returns wood lap siding

004with shingles in the front gable wood corner board trim a cut stone foundation one over one windows and a brick half width wrap around front porch with a pedimented gable half height round columns and brick wing walls along the wood front stairs it first appears in city directories in 1904 as the home of george and matilda viewerly and it's located on the west side of south first street south of west jefferson and north of west madison in the old west side historic district the applicant is seeking htc approval to construct a 195 square foot addition and a 15 by approximately 12 foot wood deck on the rear of the home this is the house from the street we'll just take a walk around it in photos it's a combination of photos from the review committee

005and that were submitted by the applicant this is the north side of the house now we've we've flipped around you can see back here there are a couple of additions on the back of the house these are both modern these one-story parts and it'll make sense on this slide it's this one it's a little bit higher and then this this rear edition so currently two small additions this one and a half story wing on the back is pre-dates in 1945. another photo of the rear and where the deck is but not that large is where in addition a one story edition is proposed to infill this rear corner of the house there are two windows you can see in these photos that would be enveloped by the addition this one is um proposed to remain

006on the interior as a pass-through window but this one would come out because the wall would be taken down now we're on the let's see this must be the south side of the house alongside the driveway and here's on the left is a drawing of the lot a site plan showing the existing house 1906 the 1960s editions here that wrap around the corner and where the proposed edition would go here you can see it well on the the basement plan this is set in a good uh let's see two feet from the corner which is much appreciated and it's bumped out a little bit to distinguish it from that other addition on the back on this corner this is the existing wall where the dashed lines are so this would essentially push the kitchen out

007give them a lot more room to work with and also here's the deck on the back of the house it's a wood deck with appropriate styles of railings and some steps going down to the backyard there is a section drawing that's helpful in the application attachments here's what the rear elevation would look like with the addition this this uh gabled rear facing addition would uh would imitate the front of the house where there is a front facing uh more of a pedimented gable on top of the front porch but it's it's it's designed to imitate that and be complementary to that which we already know works well with the house and here we have the north elevation and the south elevation this is the side that's the most visible where that deck is now and

008we've just got a very simple uh wood deck extending off the back and this is the existing addition that this would uh jut out just a little bit from and the rufus is taller of course so going through the secretary of interior standards and guidelines that most apply secretary interior standard number one says a property will be used as it was historically or be given a new use that requires minimal change to its distinctive materials features spaces and spatial relationships number two says the historic character of a property will be retained and preserved the removal of distinctive materials or alteration of features spaces and spatial relationships that characterize a property will be avoided number five says distinctive materials features finishes and construction techniques or examples of craftsmanship that characterize a property will be preserved number

009nine says new additions exterior alterations or related new construction shall not destroy historic materials that characterize the property the new work shall be differentiated from the old and shall be compatible with the massing size scale and architectural features to protect the historic integrity of the property and its environment number 10 says new additions and adjacent or related new construction will be undertaken in such a manner that if removed in the future the essential form and integrity of the historic property will be unimpaired from the secretary of the interior's guidelines for additions recommended is constructing a new addition so there's the least possible loss of historic materials and so that character-defining features are not obscured damaged or destroyed also recommended is considering the attached exterior addition both in terms of the new use and the appearance

010of other buildings in the historic district or neighborhood design for the work may be contemporary or may reference design motifs from the historic building and from the ann arbor historic district design guidelines for all additions it's appropriate to place a new addition on a non-character defining or inconspicuous elevation and limit the size and scale in relationship to the historic property also designing a new addition in a manner that makes clear what is historic and what is new it's also appropriate to place new walls in a different plane from the historic structure in a subordinate position to the historic fabric and to limit the size and scale of the addition in relationship to the historic building so it does not diminish or visually overpower the building or the district the addition's footprint shall not exceed one

011half of the original building's footprint or one half of the original building's total floor area all right let me run back up to some of my notes so in terms of the footprint and floor area this addition is all falls well within the 50 guideline for the maximum amount of additions the footprint with this edition would be a 45.5 percent and the floor area would be at 22.8 percent windows on the proposed edition are pella wood casements that are clad in aluminum they're proportioned to be complementary in size and shape to the historic windows the new door is also a pella full light aluminum that i'm sorry full light aluminum clad wood cladding on the addition is woodlab to match the house with shingle gable trim to match the front gable i'm really not concerned

012about this matching too much because of the window configuration the the locations of the windows the foundation materials it's it's going to look like an addition um and it's not i don't i don't believe it's going to be confused as something old by anyone even if it has wood siding on it uh staff believes that the work does not have a detrimental effect on historic materials features or spaces and that the application should be approved thank you thank you mr thatcher commissioner quijano and myself we're on the review committee do you want to start commissioner kiana uh sure i can i don't have too much more to add the the photographs and the staff report were very thorough i guess the one one thing that i did take note of as we were walking towards

013the driveway from the i guess that's the south side um you know you do get kind of a clear view along that that elevation of the property that side of the property and the proposed addition is set back as ms thatcher said two feet from that back corner so it would be further back than that railing that we see right now so kind of tidies that up i think not not that that's currently an issue but that would be a visual change other than that not much more to add yeah i also agree with staffs report i think this this house is very well maintained it's um has a lot of its original character defining features i think the the proposed edition is pretty straightforward um as you this photo you would you would see

014the addition you know from the street but i think it there is you'd see like the back of it it's much lower than the rest of the house um and there's a nice view shed even to the back you know carriage house that's back there as well so i don't think it draws too much away from from the house overall um i don't really have anything else to add i think this one is pretty straightforward um all right and the applicant i believe is here and in person with us so if you would like to step up to the podium is there a list to write their name um there's not okay just ask them okay if you could uh state your name for the record and if you have anything you'd like to add

015to the staff report or review committee report uh you have up to three minutes to speak ramsey and i've always admired the old west side association and living there and earlier i lived in a small house and it was further up by the high school and my kids went to the ba school and loved it and when we started looking for a house we went all over town and we ended up coming back to the old west side and we were fortunate that this house was available and so we made an offer on it and uh we've been there let's see how many years 21 yeah and so it was since 20 since uh when was 2000 2001 and um it's been a pleasure to live there i walked to work uh at the university

016and never drove and at this point i have a 23 year old volkswagen with 70 000 miles on it so it paid to walk and we've been delighted to go uh just get like we walked over here tonight and we'd walk over downtown to downtown we'd go to the banks we do a little shopping and it's been a delightful place to live the street is great the neighbors are fantastic and we can try i do want to say that what we did we spent a lot of time looking at the house with the architects and we made suggestions on keeping roof lines and window sizes and everything to be compatible with the original house and as an artist i thought it was incredibly important that we not change the architectural aesthetic of it and so

017we we stayed as close as we could and still get a kitchen that we could work in i'm marcia pollenberg married to ted and the necessity for enlarging the kitchen is that our kitchen is minuscule and that two people can't stand in there and work at the same time plus we have a ventilation problem and it actually is a violation our stove doesn't raise a gas stove it doesn't vent to the outside and so you get with fuels and smoke and you know sometimes enough is enough and um we love the historic nature of not only our house but the neighborhood i'm very much a neighborhood person and i walk my dog and i know a lot of people and i i prize the architecture as it is and actually we were looking at windows

018yesterday stained glass windows to go add to materials unlimited and i found three that are the top top picks so we're keeping that window i love the architecture so um and then from the rear we're going to use the the old window and have it face on the inside so we're using the old materials we preserve whatever we can it's beautiful it is beautiful that's why we're happy yeah commissioners do you have any other questions for the applicant better question sure hi on the drawings it says skylight question mark on i think one of the interior elevations so i'm curious are you adding a skylight to the roof anywhere or has that been scratched or that was maybe in error i'm not 100 sure that we'll need it we're thinking of that about it okay

019it's not drawn but can you tell us where it might be if you plan to install it and we're just not sure um i'm not an architect yeah you know but i want light where where would the skylight be if you choose to install the skylight um on the driveway side on the driveway since it's not drawn on here commissioners that would be a really easy staff approval yeah yeah if you decide you want to install it later discussion and we didn't come to a decision marcia and ted if if you decide that you want to install it later oh it's okay it's okay if you decide later that you want to install it it's a very easy staff approval you would just fill out a new application it's a 35 dollar fee because this

020is in the back out of sight on a new wing i can staff approve that for you thank you sure any additional questions it is so hard to hear people with masks and you can't see you guys are great you're used to it okay uh we can now move on to the public hearing portion for this application uh this is for an opportunity for persons to speak for up to three minutes about the application at 524 south first street um if you would like to speak please indicate by pressing star 9 on your phone you guys can go ahead and sit down thank you thanks do we have any callers indicating to speak no callers have indicated okay i believe there were also some communications sent correct regarding this edition there were there were two

021support letters uh that were emailed to you that were emailed just neighbors on this block in support of the project all right i will now close the public hearing portion for the application is there a commissioner that would like to make a motion commissioner quijano anywhere i move that the commission issue a certificate of appropriateness for the application at 524 south 1st street the contributing property in the old west side historic district 2 construct a 195 square foot addition and a 15 foot by approximately 12 foot wood deck on the rear of the home as proposed the home is or the work is compatible in exterior design arrangement materials and relationship to the building and the surrounding area and meets the city of ann arbor historic district design guidelines for additions and the secretary of

022interior standards for rehabilitation and guidelines for rehabilitating historic buildings in particular standards 1 2 5 9 and 10 and the guidelines for additions and building site support moved by commissioner quijano seconded by commissioner white is there a discussion on the motion commissioner well i i think this project uh like i agree with what i've heard so far i think it meets the standards and i appreciate the high quality materials that are being used on the project and clearly it was designed with a lot of respect for the historic structure so i appreciate that as well thank you for your comment any other discussion ready to vote all of those in favor please say yes yes yes yes all of those opposed please say no all right the motion carries your application has been approved please

023note that you must apply for any required permits from the city before beginning your project thank you all right and we'll now move on to item f2 at 220 south 7th street commissioners do any of you need a um a paper copy of this staff report you've got electronic copies but i wanted to make sure that commissioner white had one looks like he does yes okay all right we're good uh 220 south 7th is in the old west side historic district it's a single story home that first appears in city directories in 1896 as number 16 south seventh street the home of louis schneierly members of the schneiderli family lived at this address until at least 1940 it features a front-facing gable sculpted block foundation and nearly full width concrete block front porch with wing

024walls and square wood half columns house is located on the west side of south 7th south of west washington and north of murray court and it's in the flood plain of an allen creek tributary the applicant is seeking htc approval to construct a second floor of rear edition on top of existing modern rear editions and replace a modern garage with a taller garage in the same footprint all right this is the front of 220 south seventh the complicating factor is that by virtue of being in the flood plain the house may not be expanded the footprint for the stormwater code so it's up or nowhere also proposed in this application is to replace the garage same deal they can reuse the footprint of the existing garage but that could also could not get larger so

025this single story house has a succession of editions let me walk you around the front you can tell the applicant's photos taken in the snow versus my photos taken in the mud um the front the house was built in a couple of phases this uh like 16 foot deep front section uh was probably moved on to this site because it predates uh the the method of construction predates the date of the house when it first appeared on this lot it's a much older method of construction most likely at the time that it was moved here part of this back part of the house was added on so maybe back to about here there's a good diagram i'll get to in the middle in a minute and this this is a kitchen this wing was also

026added at that time i believe this is the kitchen and then there's a little screen room back here these two editions this one with a a shed roof and this one with the gabled roof were added on later those are the modern editions plus the screen room when i'm talking about the modern editions those are the ones that i mean and that's where a second floor addition is proposed to be added moving around the driveway side the north side of the house you can kind of see here i think where the last of the additions was put on and the 1960s garage has a kind of a unique sculpted block foundation that's more more sculpted than usual has a little more relief and just a couple of photos of the existing garage this is the

027north side along the property line okay house this is the proposed site plan on the left you can see where the additions stack up on the back and where the second floor edition would be placed and here's the footprint of the garage this is a very good drawing showing the earliest section of the house the first addition onto the back with this this kitchen little wing off to the side and then the new additions behind house is currently 1295 square feet the pre-1945 footprint or during the period of significance was 932 square feet and with uh and and there's no proposed uh change to the footprint of course so um the total footprint uh area of the additions is 39 of the pre-1945 footprint for the floor area the pre-1945 floor area was the same

028932 square feet and the additions right now add 363 square feet and the proposed editions add 296 square feet for a total increase of 659 which is 70.7 of the pre-1945 structure and unfortunately that does significantly exceed the local historic district design guideline that says the addition should not exceed 50 percent of the original building's total floor area let's go through the floor plans are in the packet they're always helpful to understand what's going on this is the front elevation you can see that there's not a lot of room in this attic so we briefly discussed but it's just not not useful as a finished space because there's just not enough of it and it's not tall enough you can see the kitchen wing going off to the side here all of the existing doors

029and windows on the existing house are proposed to stay back here you can see the kitchen wing and this must be one of the additions and this is the the shed roof edition this is the farther one this is one in the center and the screen room it's got a couple it's got a little deck here on the side that would remain and on the back and here's the driveway side as it exists today there's a severe drop off here the flood the base flood elevation is at about six feet of the garage which i believe sits lower down here so it is uh it is a substantial uh base flood elevation um revised floor plan this is uh let's see back here is where the screen porch is now that would be converted into

030a stairwell and a little mudroom addition on the back of the kitchen or maybe this is a table i'm not sure which and here you can see a roof plan showing where the new edition fault sits on top of those rare editions has a bedroom a bath a closet and here's the stairwell tucked into the corner from the front you can see that the the new roof they the the architect drew this up with both a front-facing gable and side facing cables like you see here and the front-facing gable just looked much more massive than this drawing um and i think they wisely went with the side facing gables there are you can see it's a sort of a series of steps down here that is uh to accommodate the stair going up and you

031can also see the new garage here in the background unfortunately our screens that we are looking at up here make everything squished and a little taller and pointier looking than necessary so keep that in mind when you're looking at these and the paper copies and the electronic copies are a better version than these little screens but here we have the south side elevation two new gables three new gables and a little bit of infill roof here to tie everything together this this goes from a shed to a hip over the kitchen this is the back of the house we see the garage on the left there's a new person door down here and or maybe that's an existing i'm not sure but there's a new person door here on the side where this guy is

032going in cloud one over one windows are proposed there's that new door and that's the that was the driveway side the garage is unique and it's a it's a i think a great solution to a problem of trying to put a new building up in a floodway so in the past we've had a few garages come through where they have to have flood gates they usually take up the bottom like two feet here and and they open when water passes through and let the the water flow through the flow freely through the building and in this case they proposed to use um one by eight vertical boards with with three three and a quarter three and a half inches in between so it's it's essentially more like uh open like a fence would be but

033it's to allow the water to pass through and you don't have to deal with the the flood gates that open and close and it also keeps critters out which is probably a big advantage on the front elevation the whole thing is clad in board and batten and the second floor is born in baton it which is also very compatible with the very vertical looking first floor and these are breakaway flood doors so if a flood did rush through here these doors are designed to get out of the way all right there's a person door here on the back of the garage with a half staircase going up and then there must be another half staircase inside to get up to a finished room on the second floor from the secretary of interior standards i think

034i read all these to you already i read you one and two and nine and ten from the guidelines for building site not recommended as removing or radically changing buildings and their features or site features which are important in defining the overall historic character of the building from the ann arbor historic district design guidelines for all additions it's appropriate to place a new addition on a non-character defining or inconspicuous elevation and limiting the size and scale in relationship to the historic property also placing new walls in a different plane from the historic structure in a subordinate position to the historic fabric it's also appropriate to limit the size and scale of the addition in relationship to the historic building so it does not diminish or visually overpower the building or the district the additions footprint

035should exceed neither half of the original building's footprint nor half of the original building's total floor area and it's not appropriate to design an addition that overpowers or dramatically alters the original building through size height or materials all right let me get you back up to the drawings um so staff does have concerns about the total floor area increase and the necessary height of the addition i do appreciate that the architect tried valiantly to get this as low as possible but i do believe that the height and the floor area are contrary to several of the guidelines that i've read to you and others that are in the staff report i have i have suggested two different motions if you want to use them one is for the addition and one is for the garage

036in case you want to consider them separately and one at a time that's it thank you thank you miss patrick commissioner chicano and myself were on the review committee i can start this one off um can you go back up to the photos mr yeah um so i think the photos are pretty clear and depicting maybe is there one from the the front towards the street the house is stated it's in the flood plain so it actually this is it sits relatively low especially being a single story home there is another house that's adjacent that's one and a half to two stories that's slightly taller and then there's a apartment building immediately on the north of this that is much more modern in character it's definitely not historic in nature um it is pretty visible

037as you drive either way on 7th or walking through you do see the extents of the house all the way back up to the garage and some of the additions that that are back there um i think the photos from the rear are pretty clear to show how it you know the it's it's a little bit mismatched in the back so it but the lot is actually really really deep and low so i think there's some it's an interesting feature and i think concept to work with we did kind of look to see you know where that exact um distinction was between existing and new on the driveway side where they're showing the addition to move to the two-story portion that is not the original so they they've stayed out of the original footprint of

038the house so that that's appreciated um i i am also mixed on this one i do have concerns about the increase in floor area and the but i also understand the constraints for the footprint i think it's an interesting concept and i do think the addition is pushed extremely far back but there is a lot of visibility because the house and the roof line are so low um i don't know if they have anything else not a whole lot more to add just maybe more about the the context um so it is interesting that you know this was moved from another location so the most historic portion of this home you know it's in a different context it's not like it's neighbors um so the district that it's in you know in a sense um

039and beyond its north and south immediate neighbors all the other homes are even if they were all on level ground plane they'd be signifi significantly taller than this home its rear yard neighbors are also quite taller so you know even even with the proposed editions uh it would still be shorter than its neighbors but yeah i agree with all the other comments that were made thank you commissioner uh would the applicant please step forward and state your name for the record uh you have up to five minutes to speak if you have anything you'd like to add to the staff report or review committee report okay i i am carl hueter and i have been coming in front of this commission since 1978. and i don't come here very often because i usually work with

040jill and try and get things done without him needing your good help and i'd like to say you know in the 40-some years i've been practicing this is probably one of my more difficult ones to do as as we understand uh in 1972 when the oversight historic district was created uh floodplains and floodways were not significant features in the development of ann arbor now they're a paramount and uh this project there's different floodplain levels i read one of them had us at seven foot nine you know the tip of my fingers the whole that's the entire property underwater to a depth of seven foot nine inches um and i and because of that a lot of times like the previous submission we would seek to add on to the rear of the property and and

041hide the new structure but that's uh not not an opportunity that's available to us because of the fema regulations um the it for me my structural background it was a fun house to go through because there's so many it's like a history of framing from timber framing to sawn and timber frame before wire nails were and then later on those little odd little additions on the back um the the first practical difficulty and hardship that we have that's not self-imposed is is the floodplain issue and the second one is the the house is the contributing structure is very small and that 70 years ago you know some 10 years after the cut-off date i came was it 1940 or 1945 i didn't 44 was the last year what 44 was the last year so you

042know six or seven years after uh 1944 50 51 those editions started to pop on and those are from 70 years ago and they're contributing to uh diminishing that that 50 area that were allowed uh and as i i looked at the history of the house you know every 50 or 60 years or so someone would expand the house by one time 165 percent then 40 percent and now 70 years later we want to add another 30 36 39 to the house because every time it was down it was done for the current property owner to meet the demands of the existing at that time contemporary times that they needed i really tried to work very hard at making that addition as small as possible uh five foot six plate height tucking the rest of

043the all the rooms under the roof having the roof sloped back from the street which is a typical ploy to eliminate the massing and wherever i could i i cut down the ridgeline again to mitigate that massing the garage is in very poor condition the foundation is heaving and breaking it apart and it needs replaced and we would like to get some space in the attic of the garage in order to have a studio office area and that space has to be above the floodplain height so it's a little bit taller but as you drive around the old west side there are any number of carriage and carriage barns in the backs of the buildings that are one and a half two stories high and because of the new structure we're proposing it was a

044little taller it seemed to fit well with that that height is negotiable i appreciate the comments from jessica who's last name and i can't say about the fact that as you go through the neighborhood most of the old westside homes developed are one and a half two-story houses some with a third-story attic space and this is a small house created at a different period of time than those homes around it the houses behind this one sit on a hillside so they have a three-story face towards this house that's only one story high and uh it it's just uh you know it's the requirements of the historic standards of oneness are you know the rules and regulations that are forged that fit but generally most cases yet there are unique conditions in practical good each other's

045hardships and i as i look at this this just it has that criteria that i know that you're all going to set your good minds to and help us find a solution where this couple newly moved from ghana to come in ann arbor and starting their new family and live here hopes to be able to expand it a little bit more so they and their expanding family have a place to live in ann arbor for the next 15-20 years thank you i'm here to answer questions commissioners do you have any questions for mr heater no questions actually i do have one um if you could i mean i think you touched on a little bit but can you just um maybe talk about the the height in relation to the floor area increase and and

046the need and how that that's playing in if is that playing into the height overall height of the the addition right so the the plate height is five foot six it's about at the peak of the contributing structure ridge it's a very flat roof i think it's less than 312. um and so i i i wanted that wall to be there for the old structure to butt into and then immediately at that point the roof is going up and away from the existing contributing structure and i think that new roof is about 40 feet back from the front of the house and and then we have uh a modest 10 by 12 bedroom a very small 6x6 closet and a little tiny 8x8 bathroom tucked in under those roof planes so everything's under the roof

047the kitchen i want to point out is only six foot eight inches tall you know it's and it's not uh a code habitable space and we want to pull that roof up um to get more space in there the rest of the rooms in the existing house are seven foot four seven foot six and i also and and then in doing all the work we we want to get rid of that cement asbestos siding and once that's undertaken we can discover what the exis the original siding was on the house and as you looked at that rear elevation there's there's like four distinct different sided different addition on it and i wanted to knit that all together to make it a whole structure that that would fit in with the character of the old west

048side did i answer your questions okay thank you any additional questions from commissioners i had one but it was just answered by carl i was wondering how far back that uh the eve of the addition is that that butts the rear of the uh the existing you said 40 feet is that correct i'm sorry excuse me i'm story that's why i was repeating you that's okay yeah it's a from the front of the porch it's what i was just 42 feet back okay thank you i'll now open for this for public hearing um yeah go ahead come on if you can just state your name for the record i'm kelvin hughes hey and uh i'm from up north but i just wanted to say i i was living in ann arbor for my undergrad and

049my medical training here since uh 2004 and left for a few years and met kelvin in ghana and we actually i returned during the pandemic and um we were apart for quite a few months and i was here doing some work and we actually lived on 7th street when he came after we were allowed to kind of come back together after the pandemic and um this opportunity kind of came up shortly after we were really excited um to be able to live on seventh street and enjoy everything else i think had been quite modest in that she came back because of the call for doctors during the pandemic and we were separated from six months and she left the honeymoon to come back because you know arnold means a lot to her and and and

050you know and we fell in love with that with seventh street and when because we were just you know a block and a half up we were you know walking in west park and and trying to run as well but that didn't happen as much and but i think the other thing to say is that the garage is really important for us as you can tell from my funny accent i'm not from around here our family lives all around the world and having the opportunity for them to come and visit and have a base to explore michigan and stay with us and my parents are very keen to come and get their nine-month-old grandson much better and having a place that we can have them is really really important for us and and i think

051the other thing to say is that i grew up in london and the architecture is part of the fabric and the culture that we have there the school i went to was founded in 1573 and the building i was in school for seven years uh 1691 so the reason we've chosen carl and also amos and david our builders is because you know we wanted to be respectful to the historic district commission we wanted to contribute to that um the house is a little bit janky and uh needs some tlc and i think that the reason we we you know won the bid actually was because no one else wanted it the only people that wanted it were investors they were going to turn it into a rental and the other sort of families were interested

052and said it was too much work and that's why we got it but we do want to restore it to what we hope was its former glory and contribute positively to the old west side thank you very much like this couple this time thank you thank you so much for having us guys i will now open this to the public hearing if this is an opportunity for persons to speak up to three minutes about the application at 220 south seventh street uh kristen do we have any callers there are no callers so we'll close the public hearing is there a commissioner that would like to make a motion on the application we have commissioner rocklin shall i do the garage first maybe is it which would you like for sure i'll do them separately but

053do you i don't have a preference if you have a preference well okay i'm looking for it let me see it what they i'll do the garage first okay um i move that the commission approve with conditions and issue why does it say approve with conditions are there conditions for the garage no conditions oh just that um maybe there's something about just that i needed more information on the door okay the person door the person yeah i will keep that in there then i move that the commission approve with conditions and issue a certificate of appropriateness for the application at 220 south 7th street a contributing property in the old west side historic district to replace a modern garage with the taller garage in the same footprint on the condition that the door details are

054reviewed by staff in a separate application as conditioned the work is compatible in exterior design arrangement materials and relationship to the building and the surrounding area and meets the city of ann arbor historic district design guidelines for additions and the secretary of the interior standards for rehabilitation and guidelines for rehabilitating historic buildings in particular standards one two nine and ten and the guidelines for additions and building site support move back commissioner rockled seconded by commissioner white is there a discussion on the motion elevation it doesn't really give you the feel that you'll have there right right so the garage is is pretty far back in the overall scheme of the house it sits back from it yeah it's going to say it doesn't quite clear all the additions go ahead it's ten feet when we

055take the garage down the building code says we can't rebuild it and exactly where it is so we have to push it back a little bit to be 10 feet away from the existing house is it so inspect being 10 foot back on the um on the site plan i i show that 10 foot dimension on the proposed site plan yeah it looks like there's a diagonal dimension yeah yes that's correct okay so it's actually even a little further from the in the rear of the yeah it's back behind the hole yes i'm just looking at some of the guidelines that are referenced i think and i can state i guess a couple the garages is quite a ways back from from the street and they're it being set back from the house i think

056is helpful i think we've talked a little bit about you know the site itself um being pretty low and depressed from the road and it actually dips in elevation as you as you go further back i think the only concern i have is is the height and relation then to the rest of the the project depending on you know what happens with that motion is is there an issue with the height okay are you recommending we i i think i'm questioning do we need to discuss the the first the edition first let's let's can we hold and and postpone this until we i i didn't uh i didn't think that through just hold off on this and and you can now make the motion for the addition we can come back to the garage that's

057fine great let's do it um one moment please there it is i move that the commission issue a certificate of appropriateness for the application at 220 south seventh street a contributing property in the old west side historic district to construct a second floor rear edition on top of existing modern rear additions on the following conditions that the clabbered siding is wood or cementitious with this exposure similar to the lap siding in the house's front gable and that the additions windows and doors are reviewed by staff in a separate application as conditioned the work is compatible in exterior design arrangement materials and relationship to the building and the surrounding area and meets the city of ann arbor historic district design guidelines for additions and the secretary of the interior standards for rehabilitation and guidelines for rehabilitating

058historic buildings in particular standards 1 2 9 and 10 and the guidelines for additions and building site support moves by commissioner rocklin seconded by commissioner white is there a discussion on the motion anyone that wants to jump first i'm a just a general i mean just my opinion pardon me i can't hear you oh sorry let me microphone calls um yeah so just my general opinion not having been to the site um i just think that the project as a whole like when you combine this higher garage and this high edition the cumulative impact it's it's gonna end up having a kind of a drastic change to the look and feel of this site um so i understand the idea of like approving the garage first um to me just the project as a total

059would have have a really kind of drastic impact on the site as a whole um so i don't know if i can support both the garage and the addition perhaps i can support just a garage at this point but certainly not both so that's kind of where i'm coming from commissioner white did you well one of the things that that structure is the lost part of the neighborhood and everything surrounding that neighborhood is larger there's an apartment building that's out there it's taller than that building it's uh on the back it goes up a hill so whatever is there they're looking down on the on the property it's there and going the other way they're the lowest so whatever they're building there that no one in the neighborhood is going to be looking up they're

060all going to be looking down so i guess uh there's you know i'm definitely struggling here because we all seem to be um the project is very well thought out and detailed uh the design is um you know just so thorough and obviously uh you know very intelligent and thoughtful and then there's there's the standards that say that you know 50 is the maximum and that you shouldn't overpower the historic portion of the house then you have the fact like what commissioner white just brought up where this is a particular situation in a flood plain you cannot do the the rear addition that we've seen other uh let's say short statured homes accomplished with a very large backyard and maybe a very large well a fifty percent one-story addition or maybe a one story edition

061or something like that that's not available here so that's what i'm struggling with anyone else i i agree it's um it's a head scratcher because you know there's there's the letter of the the guidelines and uh standards and then you know there's how best can they meet the intent and and the goals of it um with such a unique case right it's interesting to hear the applicant mention that when they were bidding on the home that you know all other viable options or bidders were or rental you know to be rental properties and is that what we want to promote versus a homeowner who's going to invest in the property and and care for it in a way that their neighbors presumably are um so that that adds for me an interesting layer as well

062you know that that other factor um yeah on paper you know it seems yeah there are certain guidelines that it doesn't meet but i think there's there's value there to be considered and in the other aspects that the applicant has presented i generally i agree with that assessment i think this is a it's a tricky case and i think that um i appreciate the applicant stating there you know providing the information regarding the intent to to restore a historic home that has a very particular challenge a very tricky challenge um i think you know as i was trying to pull up the guidelines and just look through the first you know several one two nine and ten um you know the one i think it definitely meets the property will be used as it was

063historically or be given in new use requires minimal change to distinctive materials features spatial relationships i think for the most part that's met the spatial relationships maybe you know a little bit in question but i think for the most part it's staying within the same footprint the height is really i think the one thing in question but i think the lot lends itself to a little bit of a flexible i'd say really spatial relationship the historic character of the property will be retained the entire front main portion of the property is going to be completely visible and almost untouched with the exception of the wing to the south of the property i think for me it becomes a question about you know as we maybe move down into um number nine where are we gonna

064to the new york new work will be differentiated i think it definitely will be but the massing scot size and scale that the roof height is it we get into the question of is it going to be so overpowering and looming in the back as we can move to the back of the house and things really start to to get higher and i think that that's the questionable piece for me and that's where the additional floor area also becomes questionable for me because if we didn't have the additional floor area up there we might not have the height issue that would be bringing this as an additional issue so i think that that's the one piece that is is my struggle i was just going to look to see it number 10 since i'm going

065through should be undertaken in such a manner that if removed in the future the essential form integrity of the property will would remain i believe we we meet that one so for the most part i think we're meeting the majority of the guidelines um i'm just again looking at ann arbor and i think most of those are similar say additional say something similar than the ones that were just read well so in not recommended editions designing a new addition so that it's size scale in relation to the historic building are out of proportion thus diminishing the historic character so that's a question to ask yourself is does this proposed edition diminish the historic character of the property or not one of the questions is in the neighborhood they mentioned that they had other buildings around

066them they're already taller than that building and so since they're the lowest it's not going to be taller than the ones that are already existing in the neighborhood it's because you're still going to be looking down at that from uh if i'm in one neighbor in that house looking at their house i agree i think uh the the neighborhood context will not be uh diminished or changed in any way by the edition i'm i'm more thinking about the historic structure on the property itself um you know will that be diminished and so that's that's to me the question now that's a tough one i'm almost leaning toward it it won't be because of how much of the historic building is is still prevalent and un untouched and it's pretty far back it was 40 feet

067from the porch and that's another i don't know 10 feet or so from the front walk it's hard to it's hard to visualize though you know what it's a little bit different once it's in place but and i do think the design is is pretty well considered as far as how that that new roof would interact with the existing roof it creates even though we don't have the step back like we would normally like to see on in addition it gives a distinct change and plane from the original roof and i think the foundation is different in that portion let's vote is everybody ready for vote okay all of those in favor of the motion please say yes yes all of those opposed please say no no the motion carries we move on to the

068garage motion do you have something that you'd like no no i okay i i i came up too quickly but i have a bad back so i have to walk around we'll finish the second motion the the garage motion uh do we need to re-read it or what's the second yeah you're good as long as dave and bob are not reading it okay so i guess the the question is is the addition of the garage and the the additional height going to be an issue with the in comparison with the the house itself there can be an added component it's i gotta say this is the an application that really would have uh benefited i think from a perspective drawing because the the elevation don't put that up if unless you don't want to do

069the project any favors because it just looks tall but in perspective you know it's not going to look tall i don't think it's going to it's going to disappear half of it behind the house and then it's going to be lower than then the new roof and it sounds like it's going to be lower than than neighboring houses so it's it's a tough one to uh to visualize without a drawing i agree what do you guys think i agree having that like a perspective view just from the side you know public right away would have helped perceive the how far back it is the depths before you even get to the the new roof which is then sloping away from you so that making that gesture of rotating the the roof form certainly helped but

070i agree that type of a drawing or image would have would have been helpful but regarding the garage even in the elevation that we see from the front elevation can we look at a photo of the existing garage from the sidewalk and we can oh yeah ask how much taller it is then we can squint there it is right there let's see you can see how far far back so the existing garage is way back it's down a foot or so and the plate height is is i i don't even think it's an eight foot plate height and then it has this 312 morph pitch on it which is uncharacteristic to most of the structures in the west side so we're we're gonna have an eight foot plate and then a four foot sidewall which

071which will probably be about the height of the existing garage roof and then the peaked roof on top of that it's a 20-foot width 12-12 pitch so it'll be 10 more feet so it's 14 and 8 that's 22 feet uh 14 and 8. yeah 22 feet high whereas the garage that you're looking at right now is probably 11 or 12 feet high and and i'm sorry david you're correct you can't have the big garage on next to the little house and the garage can be taller i felt because if the house could be taller and of course the apartment building right next door is up about five feet and the great elevation and much taller and it seemed to fit back there and then the trees down the north side of the property line are

07240 50 feet tall and they all you have to recognize that the landscaping too affects the massing and the look and the volumes and whatnot right thank you any additional comments he is ready for a vote i think so all right all of those in favor please say yes yes yes all of those opposed please say no the motion carries uh please note that you must sorry i'm going to find my language here thank you very much this is a difficult one and i appreciate it and we have to recognize that variance you come before boards for variances because you have practical difficulties and hardships that are in unique conditions and i and i appreciate all the effort and your energy put into this thank you of course thank you hey carl and calvin and

073heidi um as a condition of these motions i do need more information on the new person doors and the new windows on the edition it won't be long thank you and you know i'll give it to you all right uh we actually need to take a five minute recess the zoom is not working so we need to take care of the technical difficulties take five [Music] order from our recess uh we are on hearing f3 530 north division dispatcher when you're ready will you please give the staff report okay all right one second well thank you everyone so back in the magical month of april 2020 there was an application to approve a replacement building a redo of an existing building with a big addition in the old fourth ward historic district on this building

074um the applicant came into a working session or two and i'm thinking it may have even gone to a meeting once but then kovid hit and the application was live and we realized after missing both the march and april htc meetings which were cancelled we had two or three outstanding applications and those um we dealt with by seeing if anybody had any issues with them and then letting them be approved after the end of the 60-day period by taking no action because no serious issues were raised at that time so uh this application does have a certificate of appropriateness it was earlier than that deemed to be a non-contributing structure anyway it's two structures that were glommed together a long time ago and made into you know this just one mega building here and so

075we've got an approved plan for modifying this building putting an addition on the back making it the greenest building in a large radius and doug can tell you a little more about that if he wants to but after that certificate of appropriateness was issued uh the team working on this took some of the comments that they heard from the commission to heart and made some modifications and those are what are here tonight to be discussed and in a nutshell i borrowed some of the doug's application slides here this is the front of the existing building on a much nicer summer day and here's what it looks like today and the back today this on the top the red and yellow buildings are what was approved in march of 2020 and you can see the addition

076here in the back you can see that the the roof line is modified there's tons of solar panels up here there are shed dormers on both sides and the windows haven't changed again this is not a contributing building so this was all good and the thing that the hcc commented on specifically one of them was this stairwell going down here because having this big guard rail in the front yard wasn't ideal so it was redesigned by sinking part of this front corner of the yard and putting up a low retaining wall and a bunch of landscaping here in order to make this guard rail system go away so the way it works now and this is the money slide with the the site plan and the the rendering of what it would look like here

077this is what it was what it used to look like here on the left but you would walk to the toward the front door two steps down to this slightly sunken patio and then a few more steps down underneath the front porch so guard rail's handrails are hidden underneath the porch this surface doug can tell you a little bit more about but there is a stone wall akin to the stonewall that is outside of the church down the street saint andrews um this gives them patio space for the tenants to use it's not typical to have a sunken front yard there i can think of two in the old west side that have been approved in the last five or six years one's on the corner of mosley and second and one is at the

078corner of 7th and west jefferson that was a big new house with the whole side yard was sunk and that was the most recent one so here's a view from the street of what it would look like you can see the wall here it's at its uh let's see this is this is two feet here so the the wall itself above grade looks like it's even less than two feet tall though it does step around and the the entry would be right over here here's a drawing uh showing uh sort of a section a side view of here would be the wall from the inside this is this would be at its tallest point um and the sidewalk is here the um the the site slopes downhill uh going to the north quite substantially there

079are a couple of other things that are included in this application the top was what was approved and the bottom is what is proposed some window changes both on the existing part and on the new edition none of these even give me pause because again it's a non-contributing building and it's it's very close to what was proved the first time around here's the the south sorry the north side elevation same thing some window changes um maybe doug can come and it does look like the the rear edition is shallower than it used to be but when we get to you doug you can talk about that because there used to be uh like three four windows across and now there's one in the center of just the new addition on the back from the north

080um let's see and here's another view of what the the front looks like okay that's it for my presentation i'm going to turn it back to the chair i did i did comment briefly that i think that this work is appropriate i i do prefer it to having this big stairwell going down in the front i don't think that that's a good or an appropriate look and well i wouldn't if this were a contributing structure i probably would not be very much in favor at all of a sunken patio in a front yard but given its location kind of at the end of the row the district sort of peters out behind it and uh i'm really okay with with this this rework as proposed and i do appreciate the team's try attempt to to

081get rid of that big guard rail in the front yard thank you that's it for me thank you mr thatcher commissioner quijano and myself are on the review committee i can go ahead and start on this one so i generally agree with staff i think the one of the most i think i'm we were looking mostly at the you know this front entrance modification right because that's that's really the the house i think from one of the images in the packet that we'll probably get to in the presentation um by the applicant shows the footprint believe it is it is slightly forward a little bit oh yeah i'm sorry that's it i didn't mention that the house is shifting a little bit right on its foundation to be more parallel to the street and to

082fit on the lot better but that should have been in there too i think it's on page 37 in the pdf but there there's a footprint of the old and like a and a crosshash with a heavy dash line that's showing the new so the plane of the front wall is shifting forward slightly not i think almost an insignificant difference for for this conversation that like miss thatcher said the big change is really that that front yard space um the the slope that is existing does the uh sidewalk and and street you know start to really slope toward the north quite significantly across the property i don't have an issue with the retaining wall i think that's proposed it looks like it's at a decent height there were other houses around in the same area

083that also have retaining walls we've seen these on a few properties just in the front yard it looks like there is going to be a little bit of a buffer in between the retaining wall and the sidewalk so a planting buffer i think one of the only kind of questions or comments we were discussed was what is the surface of that patio because it does seem to take up quite a bit of the front yard space and that was really the i think the main concern from our point of view so figuring finding out what that surface is and how that you know works with the overall net zero and if there's any other additional greenery planned for that space in particular commissioner i really don't have much more to add to the comments made

084by uh our chair and the information presented by staff it's really just understanding the impact of um in my mind the impact of that change to the front yard portion um as a non-contributing uh building in the district thank you okay so i will now turn it over to uh mr selby do you have access to share your presentation or uh yes i believe i do um shoot i for some reason it's not falling in though uh give me one second okay can you see that sort of you may need to zoom in on very distinct areas if you're when you're talking about them because the monitors we see are on the opposite side of the room anybody wants to if anybody wants to get up and stand under the monitors there's no reason you

085can't do that oh man i just lost it too um okay uh sorry i i probably should have just come in i kind of thought that uh it was not really happening down down at the city hall yet so um go ahead we can we can see and if we need to get up and go over there we can okay well obviously uh i i believe jill showed this this slide here which is uh you know um what had passed and what it is now versus what passed in march of 2020. um yeah i would say that uh that we we really did um uh when the suggestion was made to you know get rid of the guardrail well the only reason it was there is because you know we we thought we had to

086enter from the um from the driveway which the driveway goes up kind of uh the the the terrain is falling in two directions here so it's falling down as you go down the sidewalk and it's falling as you come down the driveway um so i i think in some ways this drawing light and the on the right might be a little deceiving is that it it looks deeper than it probably would be but that's mostly because we were coming from the driveway side um and uh and you know we just we had to abide with the code um the requirements that we have a guardrail over 30 over 30 inches tall but nonetheless when we came back uh shannon gibrandall and kathy keeneth uh sadashiv and myself got together and said you know what can

087we do and it really came down to how do we get to the point of being able to traverse around down to this um to the um to the underground part the uh the commissioners had asked for us to remove the stairs or move the stairs to no further south uh than the corner of the building which is you know sort of where you see that handrail on uh return on the left um and then also to get rid of the handrail um so we were kind of excited about it because we not only moved the stairs all the way uh we actually were able to move them all the way to the to the porch wall and so they're completely hidden and there is no handrail now um it also solved some other issues

088in terms of uh you know just allowing more daylight into that area and sort of having the garden apartment be um something that's um you know just so it's got a little bit of outdoor space that helps with the living building challenge aspect of the project because you know you're supposed to give people access to outdoors and and uh and sort of spaces like that to to hang out and to to enjoy the natural areas around um one of the things that you know shannon had uh had done in her part of the design is to incorporate quite a bit of landscaping around um which a lot of which is required by the program details but kind of being sensitive to the fact that we needed to kind of shield that area and make it

089uh make it work um uh the the north part you know going north from the porch is is all extensively landscaped actually the south part there is too it's it's got a buffer pretty much all the way around it except for the actual walkway um i also would say that this is a total of nine feet from the front of the porch to the start of the landscaping so it's it's a pretty small area to begin with um one of our sort of ideals and and that was to borrow from the church up the street um we're going to have some cut stone uh from the actual project the foundation is 100 sunk into the ground right now but there is an area in the rear that has some cut stones so we thought well

090gosh it'd be really nice to reuse that on the site and then um and do a nice masonry wall like you see it uh at san andreas church and and the other thing was is you know just kind of these little areas to pause off of the sidewalk kind of a transition zone between public and private spheres um and also you know um being that uh that uh that particular location has some terrain changes too so how they dealt with you know with sort of the lower areas going down into um you know sort of the lower areas versus going kind of up into the the church itself um those were the kind of the um the things that we we used to to call on to to help this design um i think jill

091showed you this slide um so um yeah we are it is two risers down to uh to the uh the sunken area there um that is a total of nine feet from the house uh to the uh to the front so um again not a not a huge area but um a little bit more generous than if you just had to make a pathway there was really no way to get to the point of not needing a handrail somewhere unless we at least brought this down so we brought brought it down to the minimum amount we could to be able to lose the handrail entirely i had designed this surface below to be a exposed aggregate concrete i typically have used that for sort of outdoor areas where stone or patio pavers aren't used the

092reason i like it and especially in this context is the aggregate we use in it is a granite keystone these fine pea stone pebbles and once you wash the the cream concrete cream off and oil those pebbles they look a lot like they they're the same material as the granite of the block so you get that kind of a nice colorful surface very earthy in tone and texture which i thought would go really great with with the stone which is a multicolored stone so you'll kind of get that multi-color effect in the keystone itself i'm not married to that but that's just kind of what we came up with as the design team and thought that would look nice there there is uh this area does not perk on the site there is a park

093part in the back that does um so we are required to have a drain in this um in this area that uh that goes out to uh the driveway um with the the the drain that comes down there so there's this and a small area of the driveway go into the storm sewer which is right at the edge of the property there and then but about 90 to 95 percent of the water that falls on the site actually will be infiltrated in the back so this area is just a little too low for that but it's a very small amount by the volume on the total lot um yeah i made this slide just to kind of i think the pictures can be a little deceiving it's really not that far above the the sidewalk

094and in fact um the north side of the sidewalk um is is uh even a foot lower than than what the um the lowest part or the the lower part of the entry is uh it's uh in total um at the highest point of the sidewalk to the uh entry area the sunken entry area is just under two feet um and so from the outside you'll see uh walking down the sidewalk you'll see a low wall on the inside it's probably something that somebody could kind of lean on or sit on and it would be about the right height for uh for you know people to um to kind of congregate and consider lean on the wall um what i also thought was just you know that the height difference from even walking down the

095sidewalk to somebody in there is not great so i don't think it will be very jarring from a standpoint of being like you know several feet down or anything like that you know this was really just a slide was to say that you know there's so much um the neighborhood in general is pretty flat and so but there this is an area with some terrain and those areas with terrain there's a variety of different ways that those are kind of dealt with this is directly across the street the flatiron building they kind of had the same condition they had a an area where they needed to uh they had a you know the parking is about six feet lower this is just a concrete wall um to uh protect people from falling over the edge

096to the parking area below um that is paved there's also right off of the um off of the sidewalk it goes down a few steps into a lower entry area there too um so uh not out of context uh in the uh in the immediate area for another non-contributing structure um and uh the only difference being is that this one kind of enlivens the street scene a little bit so it's not so much like here's a wall to protect the property from the sidewalk and vice versa but um in our case it's more like here's natural materials that match other things in the neighborhood and create uh create their own environment of enjoyment for the people who live there um uh yeah we we uh we did uh make some um changes to the property

097one of the ones i think worked out better uh is that the we were able to we thickened up the um the sections between the floors and have a little bit of a ceiling that's raised inside there the changes uh were partially required by fire code but in the end i think it looked real real similar to what we had originally passed the windows changed because the layout and the inside had to change as a result of moving those the structure that moving it uh the the entry down uh we changed the inside and made the the social space the common areas of the house all towards the front and so what you see there in the middle um in the bump out and above that that's the kitchen and all those units um so

098what you're seeing is the windows that are over the sink which is i find common uh in you know sort of the older houses is that the windows over the sink have to be a little shorter um in order to have a counter height there but the rest of them are meant to be kind of taller and skinnier uh and less window to wall ratio like you would see commonly in in older homes um the um uh the north elevation doesn't get really seen very much because you're kind of heading up the hill and it's the opposite direction of the street um one of the things that happened uh as a result of covid was that uh when it first hit nobody knew what was going to happen and the bank said hey guess what

099we're not going to be financing any student rentals for a while nobody even knows people were going to be going to school anymore for a little while um and so that took about a year to resolve that and be able to get this finance again but in the meantime as we all know uh construction costs have gone through the roof um and so one of the ways i've kind of dealt with that and been able to do that without sacrificing a lot of the deep green perspectives of a net positive energy house and all of the extensive rebuilding of infrastructure that i have to do not only on this property but also in the street out in the street um was to uh to go modular when i was working with meadowlark we designed and

100built the nation the nation's first uh leed platinum modular home east of california anyway and um so uh i work closely with a company uh or i have on several projects uh and kind of know how to design in this fashion um it's a great quality building and they are able to alter their construction methods to allow this to be built in that fashion and due to the time savings and some of the money savings on this i was able to bring the project i wouldn't say back to where it was but somewhere in alignment where i could still actually get it financed but as a result um they're one of the the sections in the back had to grow to the to the rear a little bit in order to be able to fit

101in with how those items are built um some minor changes to the front uh do also again due to the um due to the uh change in layout the three windows in the front no longer worked in that layout so but we actually again thought that might be a little bit of an advantage just because it it wasn't so matchy-matchy and uh provided a little bit of context between the homes a little bit of distinction anyway we also had the roof lines go from 10 and 12 to 12 and 12 which better match the buildings on the street that are being compared to i think i have a slide coming up for that actually i'll just go to that slide here so the proposed slide uh down on the bottom this is what it is

102in the front and this is what it is below i always kind of thought you know the low slung nature of this house and how it really doesn't match the patterns of the other house it kind of reminded me of a broken front tooth um and um so what we tried to do with the new one was to match the the dormer pitches and the uh 12 and 12 pitches you see commonly on the block and then also um uh you know just sort of the heights of the homes so um something that would make it match a little better than what it does currently uh we did go through the htc principles for building new structures in a historic district and these are them um so maintaining the existing spacing for front and side

103yard setbacks along the block as seen from the street and this slide was referred to this yellow line here all of these houses match up pretty well and then you get to this house and it's it was kind of untwisted on the lot and i think you know probably the original home that was there was probably a a little bit turned and then when they moved the other house on just kind of crammed them together or whatever it's got a significant twist to it and if you there are a few orientation points where you're like oh that house doesn't kind of line up so we did turn it to match uh the building all the buildings to the south uh in terms of its alignment to the street and then also squared it up to

104the street um and then going to the north is the cornwall mansion where it changes considerably and kind of as jill said it kind of the historic district kind of peters out there or at least changes form um so we thought this was actually an improvement um to to it because it brings it more in line with the with the other uh with the other homes on the block not only in terms of the massing in the building height and the roof lines and things like that but also how it's aligned to the street the next item was orienting the front of the house towards the street and clearly identifying the front door so we have a traditional porch on the front uh it clearly identifies the front door and a porch to the to

105the street i think probably better than it does now which is almost kind of like a deck like appearance on the front with some kind of um strange little gables over the over the uh each door that were actually a porch column that was cut off at a 45 degree angle i can kind of tell that building was put together in 1929 because it looked like they just grabbed whatever they could find and and and uh and kind of built it on that and on the building but uh it doesn't have a lot of rhyme or reason and this the materials are less than less than uh less than desirable in some regards i did want to make a note of down here on the front of the properties across the street which are set

106back a little bit um but they have some paved areas and some areas that are just you know cars pulling up and parking uh on several of the houses across the street um and that comes into play in a little bit here um the third point for appropriate was designing a new front facade that's similar in scale and proportion to the other contributing buildings and you know again that's kind of this slide here i think it's much more in scale and uh and more uh in context with the neighborhood as you go down the street and certainly around generally in the old fourth ward uh placement scaling spacing orientation of windows and doors um we tried real hard to give this uh building a historical context in that regard with our window placement and um

107i i don't i don't think that's out of alignment there in any way probably a little better than what it is again than what it is right now for sure um selecting materials and finishes that are compatible with historic materials and finishes found in surrounding contributing buildings uh uh we went down here um uh you know this will uh be uh lap siding that is of us of a character that you would find commonly in the area uh uh we're gonna be setting the windows into into the uh into the window openings a little bit to give them a little bit more texture there will be all the all the trim that you would see normally on an old house so so you know a nice big beefy trim and a well made sort of

108exterior that that has contacts with the other homes in the neighborhood or a home that was built of this era using a wood-based trim i have tried really really hard to find antique um clabbered siding i've looked all over indiana ohio and michigan nobody seems to have it i've talked to all the salvaged people for old houses it's just not something that people salvage i'm pretty certain that what i'll find on the house when we pull the three layers of siding off is that underlying all that the um uh the existing collaborates are going to have a lot of nails in them i've worked with old siding quite a quite a lot in my career and it splits very easily when nails are driven through it and we've got two layers of asphalt and then

109vinyl over that so there's going to be quite a lot of nails that got that were driven through it but nonetheless even if i could save a good share of it it's a small amount of what i would need maybe enough to do one side maybe even one half of another side but um there is no way that i'll find a material uh to replace the rest of it i just can't find it and i would love to use an antique material there i love old siding i even like working with it but it just does not seem to be able to be had last one was placing utility connections at the rear or other location that minimized visibility from the street all of that is going underground the only thing that will be visible

110from the street is required by the fire code to have a fire what do you call it the thing that they tap into on the front of the house in a strobe um so that that will go off in the event of a fire this doesn't need to be sprinklered um so there was one area that said not appropriate and that's paving a high percentage of the front yard or otherwise disrupting the landscape patterns within front yards so um i just did want to say that while uh you know the front area to the south like i said is nine feet um and that will be paved i could skinny that up in some ways and make it more of like a walkway um that would still retain uh or you know keep the the

111handrail out of there but um this just does so many nice things for it i i really i in my heart of hearts i'm like this isn't really that much lower than the sidewalk so i i think that that um that cut stone wall on the outside is going to look amazing and it will be pretty well in context with uh with the neighborhood um at least up the street but if you look here we've just got landscaping all through here and the north side is completely landscaped um so there's just going to be this nice green buffer around everywhere and the materials will be natural looking materials when i look at the immediate context of the area again you know i'm seeing a lot of parking out in front and things like that and

112i know that's not you know what the htc would like to see but it is what's there um the uh other non-contributing structure across the street the uh the uh the flatiron building has a similar context and that it is um almost 100 percent paved with that same concrete wall out front the only difference being is that that's made for cars not for people uh so we we've done our best to to soften this up and to minimize it while still getting all the advantages of losing the handrail in front entirely and giving the occupants of the building something that they can really enjoy so i think that in terms of the context of the neighborhood i i felt like it does fit um there is some uh things that are rhyming with saint andrews

113church up the block we are doing an extensive landscaping job to try and and make this uh something that we uh looks looks as good as it's gonna function and it will certainly be better for the people who live there so that's kind of where we're at i um i'd like to i'd like to build this at this point i'm going to be looking at starting in june of 2023 i have to build it on the academic calendar but i um i just i hope for the opportunity to be able to uh to build this uh this building i'm i'm kind of at the the point of of whether this is going to go forward or not but um you know i bought this building my wife and i bought this building 22 years ago

114i bought it knowing that at some point in the future it was going to need an extensive project it's it's structurally very deficient and i would like to do something significant with it that has a a much better um sort of uh goal in the project than just to put up a building that people can live in so you know this will be net positive energy it's all an all-electric solar powered home uh we've designed it to have ultra low water use it is designed to fit the neighborhood context we made that hyphen in the back even because the original red the original home had the footprint of that red home you see there and probably wasn't really all that different in appearance at least in some regard in terms of the roof lines and

115things like that we believe it vastly beautifies the the streetscape on division street this has a strong support of the old fourth ward neighborhood association it'll be a well-built building for many lifetimes provides a better living space for tenants it's also going to be a really a kind of a shining star of the city's 2030 goals for what they're looking for housing and student rental housing is by far and away the worst class of uh worst performing class of buildings when it comes to sustainability in the city you know by a long shot and uh you know if we're i'm actually have a meeting with the city tomorrow to talk about how can we green our student rental stock and um you know what this part of the goal of this is to is to

116show people is that you can invest oh you know some would say over invest in a property on the front end but um i believe that if if we can do this right uh that uh that it'll it'll return dividends for a long time it may take a lot longer to pay off but in the end it's going to be something that's ready for the next 100 years and not something that's going to need to be retrofit in the future and something that is much more comfortable much healthier using sustainable materials it just really uh is something that i strongly believe is an important example for what can happen when you take the long-term view in building you know especially things like income properties i will be replacing city infrastructure out on the street at

117no cost to taxpayers and the tax man is going to be making a lot more on us from from this building than what we're currently paying on on the existing structure so i i think in all of those contexts this is a much more appropriate building for the neighborhood both in looks and in function and i hope that the historic district commissioners will see it the same and grant a certificate of appropriateness thanks thank you doug thank you for your thorough presentation and giving us all a refresher on the project the materials the composition and the uh the modifications um it's good to see it again just as a reminder the commissioners the project does have a certificate of appropriateness so we're really just looking at some of the major modifications and if there are

118any issues with with changes in materials or window placement i don't i don't think there's any issues with any of those but mostly the front yard is the majority of where the change occurs in terms of that that front sunken yard and the guardrail um do any of the commissioners have questions for the applicant uh i have a question sure uh doug when when you spoke earlier about the um the proposed concrete treatment and the aesthetics of it that was really the message that i heard that you were proposing this solid concrete paved surface in the in that front portion of the yard that sunk in but i i apologize if i missed it but i didn't hear that there was like a performance or some sort of water issue reason for the solid concrete

119that's going in it was more of an aesthetic decision is that correct yes i have to put a drain in this area regardless um even if i was to do any type of pavement materials because it doesn't work here um so even pavers uh even pervious pavers and things like that still aren't going to infiltrate water to the city standards um uh or really what i would want they're seeing is you know the last thing you want is a pond in that area um so uh the materials were not selected from a water management perspective but more from an aesthetic perspective that is correct um that the water will be managed through a drain in the in that in that area okay thank you commissioner rocklin um okay so i i need i'd like to

120hear some uh some more uh i guess a reiteration of the benefits of um of the cut stone wall that you're proposing and i'm asking that because like we had the guard rail which seemed out of place um but the the yard was sort of going to be left as is i mean we didn't see maybe a landscape plan but the yard was not going to be sunken and we said can you move the guard rail uh north of the the south uh elevation of the wall and and then so the guardrail went away but now we've got a sunken yard and a very long cut stone wall so um i guess it's i just um want to hear again like tell me again like what are the benefits to the project of having like

121okay so i we we have to get down to the the area below and there's a couple ways to do it so in in the way you're proposing now what is the benefit of going to the sunken yard with the wall to the overall project because like i kind of see it like six and one half dozen the other where we had a guardrail now we have a wall and we can still get down to underneath the porch but are there other benefits that that wall is providing the project um and can you explain those again please sure um we always were going to need a wall alongside the driveway and that's just for egress on the side um that's going to be a code requirement okay honestly honestly the cut stone wall was purely

122aesthetic because we thought you know there's precedent in the neighborhood for it and we thought it would look beautiful um the regardless of what we needed to do in order to get rid of the handrail entirely what we needed to do is to come down two steps off of the walkway to the porch um and that was uh so that was really what allowed us to get by without having anywhere where we we don't need any railing at all in order to get down to the lower part without you know and still being able to meet code we tried to keep that as minimal as possible because um because we didn't want to create something that looked you know out of place or considerably lower for instance when across the street when you're walking by

123you can kind of peer over that wall and look down six feet you know i there's no other way for them to do it i understand why that's there but in our case we're like how can we turn that into a benefit for the occupants and something that uh activates the streetscape and that's something the city has has been real in favor of is is bringing bringing people out into the you know on the porches and things like that so it was meeting city goals it was meeting goals of uh of the lower garden apartment having an area to be able to enjoy the outside like the every other floor of the building does and these are flat so each each level is its own apartment and so we thought gosh this is a really

124nice area for them to be able to enjoy a sunny day maybe even do a barbecue something like that and uh it's it's so you know the two choices we really had were to come off of the driveway or to come off of the front and coming off of the front uh as we are in the in the in the revised plan allows it so that we really only have to come down two steps off of off of that and because the terrain is falling there i mean if the terrain was flat in that area you would barely even notice it at all it's only because the sidewalk is going up that it becomes evident that that area is a little bit lower but it's like you know maybe up to your knee um in

125terms of the total height difference from the from the sidewalk so we just felt like it was a minimal change we tried to we used the cut stone wall to provide precedent because you know we liked the way that they kind of did it in the church up the street and um and because we had to deal with that train in some way if we wanted to get rid of the handwriting thank you did that answer your question yeah i'm not sure yeah no that was that was what i wanted to hear okay i have a question actually so you've stated nine feet from the front of the house to the to the cut stone wall is that that's correct yeah well it's uh nine feet to uh let me see hold on one second

126i think that might be to the porch yeah and that i guess that's my point of clarification i think on page 37 and i think it's on that slide where you had the um the yellow line indicating the the shift yes so yeah i see eleven and three quarter porch setback and then eighteen yeah so i'll say it's 16 16 huh um let me blow that up a little bit um oh crap um okay so this this drawing is a little bit an area of error because the wall is all the way out to the sidewalk in this case um uh and we brought it in board so that we could have some plantings there okay um and we're able to uh to lose a step going up to the porch um so it's nine

127feet from the front of the porch to the to the um to the outside of the wall let's say the streetscape side of the wall um and then it is uh there there is a the porch is six and a half feet i believe so it would be let's see nine feet plus six and a half feet i'm not great at math on the spot about 16. yeah all of these houses are pretty close to the street on the on the uh on the east side so then what does that leave approximately for your landscape buffer is it about two feet maybe foot and a half okay and then so is this plan show approximately the um where the wall will sit on the in adjacency to the driveway um so it looks like it's

128also approximately two feet so just kind of gauging the overall patio size yes um it's three feet from the driveway and uh unfortunately the driveway has to you know one of the reasons we needed a small railing on the uh on the wall going up near the side entry was because the way this the driveway has to curve in we um became less than three feet for a short distance um but uh that that's up the side a little bit and uh so yeah so that's three feet on the side and two feet in the front okay any other questions from commissioners i'm going to open this up for public hearing if there's a member of the public that would like to speak on the item at 5 30 north division you have up to

129three minutes to speak about this application um kristen do we have any callers there are no we'll callers the public hearing is there a commissioner that would like to make a motion on the application commissioner fortner i move that the commission issue a certificate of appropriateness for the application at 530 north division street a non-contributing property in the old fourth ward historic district to alter the previously approved lower front entrance by constructing a front patio with a cut stone retaining wall slightly realign the structure to be parallel to the street make minor window modifications and composite lap cladding on the front and fiber cement board cladding on the rear wing of the building as proposed the work is compatible in exterior design arrangement texture material and relationship to the rest of the building in the

130surrounding area and meets the secretary of the interior standards for rehabilitation and guidelines for rehabilitating historic buildings in particular standards 9 and 10 and the guidelines for district or neighborhood setting as well as the ann arbor historic district design guidelines particularly as they pertain to all new construction and new construction in historic residential settings second moved by commissioner fortner seconded by commissioner white is our discussion on the motion um start off i think in general the the majority of the modifications to the structure itself are um completely within our guidelines um i appreciate just the they're looking once again at proportioning and window sizing and door placements and whatnot but i think those are kind of insignificant in the overall scheme of the modifications as in i think they're they're slight enough that they're they

131still fall within the guidelines um there's a the last page of the presentation in the packet gives a a little bit of that perspective view of i think that that sunken porch area which i think is is interesting to see because initially when we are on site it it seems like it's a lot of yard space to to sort of pave over and um it isn't it is i would say a pay front yard is more out of character for a a historic district um but i think you know looking at this condition and the landscape buffer and the the sight wall and the height of the sight wall is relatively minor it's it's not at the site wall itself is not out of character um i think this perspective for me i think is

132interesting and that it's it does start to i think indicate that um that sense of a lively front space and almost has some some you know resonance to you know like a more of a modern city block that has a lower stoop outside of a front door that may be in an activated space which this is kind of a transitional zone again it may be a little bit outside of character for you know this particular area but i don't think it's completely outside of character for the the project and the and its use to activate the front yard um ready to vote yeah if any other commissioners have any other comments or thoughts i had a quick question for the record from from doug this sort of uh not not necessarily pertaining but i wanted

133to ask him before we were finished here because i think overall it is important and i just was curious um from the applicant if the project is still looking for living building challenge or fire certification um i just think we uh we should all be curious uh from the historic district yes i am seeking both on this project and that would be the first uh first multi-family uh building in the world to achieve both and also the first modular building period to achieve living building challenge certification thank you are we ready for a vote all those in favor please say yes yes yes all of those opposed please say no all right your motion carries i uh the application has been approved and please note that you must apply for any required permits from the

134city before beginning your project thank you thank you all right all through with hearings on to new business right there's no new business there is is there there is new business we have htc retreat scheduling so um the htc annual retreat takes place in the spring on a saturday morning from about nine to noon we move it around to different places locations and we need to work on choosing a date for that uh commissioner white has kindly presented me with a list of his choices and or his availability and um we're looking at late march or april by the time it gets to may nobody wants to be indoors on a saturday morning for a half day to look at slides and things so between now and then we've got one two three four five

135six six or seven uh saturday mornings um if saturday morning just doesn't work completely for somebody just say so um otherwise we will continue talking about saturday okay um i will throw out march 26 and april 2 because it's spring break week and i will not be available okay that's pretty cool the earliest date is march 19 which is a little quick for me because that's like a week from saturday and i'm not sure i can pull together that quickly i'm out of town okay dave's out of town um so i would like to propose possibly april 16. anybody have any no objections hang-ups on the 16th i'm so excited that you're all here too first time in a long time we can actually do this book it does anyone have a date they would

136prefer instead of the 16th the 9th or the 23rd are other candidates i'd say the 9th or the 16th yeah work for me okay 9th or 16th is just okay hearing no arguments i would like to try to find us a place to hold this on april 16. 9 a.m to noon place with heat would be nice are you sure continuing on this line of thought do any of you have a favorite place to hold it we generally go to a park or a historic building bob you've been to a few of these do you have a favorite does anyone else have any suggestions yeah the senior center the hideaway was nice that was a nice space the hideaway was nice yeah that was where we had the last one in person march 20th yeah

137david was that like the second week of march 2020 we had that yeah yeah yeah yeah all right i'm going to write down like we knew what was coming park and the hideaway pathways hideaway yeah it's a few doors down from fleetwood yeah um okay i will check on those two places and see what's available on the 16th and then i had put together a very brief list of possible topics to talk about at the retreat we usually you know this is this is any ideas that you guys have that you think we would benefit from a discussion as a whole you know outside of a meeting where it's a little more relaxed it is a meeting and the public can show up if they want to um but it's just more informal and easier

138to have a conversation than you know yelling down the line here so a couple of ideas that i had were just a second let me get my duo to work okay there was a cancelled application at this meeting and i don't think that this would be as long of a discussion as i thought after the review committee walked out of this site at 808 west washington on monday but we we were uh discussing what to do with second generation wood windows meaning historic house got some window replacements that are necessary they replace them with replicas with or without weight and pulley and stuff like that but now it's 20 years later and those windows have failed do we make them replicate the replicas or do we just go with window worksheet tolerances again i'm not

139i don't want to discuss this right now but is that something that you think would be yeah worth a 15-minute conversation yeah i would i would appreciate the guidance um another thing that's we could possibly talk about is preservation month the htc awards committee is not meeting again this year in february when they had to make a call about whether or not uh to go out and look at houses and everything they said no we're not comfortable cramming into a van for a van tour we're not gonna throw a big party uh stuff like that and that's all the fun stuff so um they had suggested a couple of them that we sort of have a best of the last 20 25 years of awards slideshow presentation on the city website and i can do

140something like that but that begs the question do we want a better web presence are there things that we could be doing that i'm not doing or that we're overlooking or is it worth discussing our our digital presence as a commission you know um or is or or is it not necessary um that's another that's another do you want to talk about it or would you rather save the time for actual preservation topics [Laughter] jill if we have ideas coming out of that brainstorming session is there any budget or resources to implement any changes to the website maybe okay yeah right now uh kristen vanderluch and i pretty much maintained the website okay um i actually kristen pretty much maintains the website i occasionally go in and add or subtract things um but you know

141we have city communications people we have twitter accounts we have you know there's probably a city instagram i don't know and it might be minor things like just getting our name out there once in a while or it might be a major thing like having our own dedicated stream of information going out to the public um kristen is in favor of this she says um so maybe i'll just leave that as a question mark for now and you guys can mull over it and and always if you have ideas just send them to me anyway we don't have to wait for a working session or a retreat two things that we have to do well that we always do are we have to do an annual um work plan and bylaw review those that's a

142usually 15 minute discussion of the work plan and then there's the annual review of projects which i think that you all like and get something out of where we show pictures of things that have actually been built that have been approved so we can kind of compare the drawings to what really happened and it helps to get everybody you know give them a better sense of here's what you're going to get based on these drawings so that's a pretty lightweight agenda so i would love if any of you have ideas we had a project earlier this year where we were talking about talking about egress windows the egress window issues it was a rental property in the fourth ward i think was it basement egress yeah basement egress i'm sorry basement egress window was it

143did it yeah i kind of remember this about the placement of windows yes they were club you know they yeah yeah we had the ones that were very close to the front yes we had two of those applications right in a row or together and they were both inappropriate i you remember that that did the did the guidelines need to be reviewed and updated that's that would be a good succinct thing to tackle is to look at the guidelines for egress windows in the design guidelines document and make sure they're still what we want and that would tie in nicely with the annual review of projects because i'll probably be showing some windows and yeah all right anybody else not a new topic but as part of the review of projects that we've approved uh

144anna had mentioned i don't remember the address it's on seventh there's like a blue and white house it's a blue white house that had um an addition put on the back kind of cleaned up some previous editions um i haven't been by it since you mentioned that but kind of understanding the realities of what we approved well yeah what we're approaching a little scale yes that's a scale yeah yeah i don't um i'll i'll write that down here too i'll try to look up the include address yeah yeah it's on the west side i know exactly which one you mean yeah has a little bit of gingerbread on the front um we may have one house south of the corner of huron yes no or liberty liberty okay okay that was a um connie rosolo

145brown yeah that's pretty good good memory i think we looked at it at one retreat at the end very quickly but they weren't it wasn't completed yeah i think it was maybe just framed out or partially or yeah okay all right i'll keep that in the slideshow i know we had a list um maybe from i don't know if it was from a previous retreat or i guess it maybe would have been one of our the ones that we did online did we were we able to cover everything that was on that that list i will check i know there are other things that have come up that nothing's coming to mind at the moment are there any lessons learned or anything we want to review about the gas meter working with the utility where

146are we done [Music] we're not quite done with them but it's all going swimmingly it's just been a gas sorry i should probably be talking to my mics but when mia's recording this she can hear it um do any of you feel like you need to know more about meters and tapes say no no sad enough okay well if anyone thinks of any other topics just let me know and i'll um fill fill these in for now and i think that'll be plenty um do you have to publish that agenda ah a week before something like that so if we have other things at the next yeah we can still talk at the next meeting yeah yeah yeah i'll ask you for more ideas then uh we'll have one before then right oh it'll be

147right before then yeah yeah okay thank you all very much is that it for new business that's it for new business yeah on two minutes um there it is i think mia just emailed those out today so okay we can wait on those or next month okay is anyone able to review the minutes i think i just got the i only got the february maybe i didn't see the january you only got february but not just maybe i didn't maybe i missed it have enough of you seen the minutes and are you comfortable with them or would you like to wait until next month for january and or february i saw the january minutes reviewed them and they look fine yeah okay is that what you're asking okay january okay but i think we just

148saw the january ones anna i don't i think she emailed february like today or yesterday just this afternoon right before the meeting yeah so we can okay so january meeting minutes any corrections or anything okay so january meeting minutes are approved we will review february next month okay great um quick shout out to mia she dealt with all sorts of technical and other difficulties that i had with this week's packet so if you see her tell her thanks she's keeping this ship afloat all right uh my reports from commissioners is there any commissioner that would like to share something with the commission nope all right i'm jay assignments for the review committee on monday what is that date going to be april 11 at 5 00 pm 5 p.m yep daylight savings it's this weekend

149yeah i can probably i can do that one you can do that one anna yeah okay any other volunteers i might be able to do it well just wait one minute again you've got a lot saved up in the bank okay that's true yeah who else would like to do it april 11th april 11th at 5 00 pm monday are you available i will do that oh great okay great great thank you tour ann arbor okay undo adam k reports from staff all right so activities the february staff activities i don't know if there's a partial one in there or not we're it's missing like 50 applications from dte because the city is moving to our new permit tracking system i know i've kind of mentioned this before but it's actually happening next week so

150people will no longer be able to hand me a paper copy of an application or email it to me they will have to go online and enter all the information in themselves which will vastly cut down on staff time not just me but me on the front desk and everybody else and they'll be able to pay online as well which is another huge uh bonus for us we have not yet figured out how to get reports out of it that's sort of not been a priority to date so we'll move that up on the list for next month and uh um i will or kristen probably will be adding to the hdc website and the other city websites instructions on how to use that how to get into it what to put where what details

151i need and how to pay so that's kind of exciting and will be a big change does that replace e-track it or is it separate from e-tracking it replaces it e-track it will still be available for viewing but no new projects or permits will go into it after next week what's the name of the system the exterior the external to the public it will be called stream and internally we call it energov i in e-n-e-r-g-o-v all right okay all good yeah no questions okay um concerns of commissioners any concerns and the commissioner would like to share nope bob's leaving uh communications we did have one i believe that came through about historic plaques yeah the michigan heritage home society is offering plaques for historic homes i'm not i haven't been able to look at it

152and see what their criteria are i suppose it's a nice alternative for people that might not qualify for our historic district plaques but at the same time i don't want people putting those up instead of ours because ours are really cool yeah and they cost about the same they're both equally expensive so um yeah it's just information yeah there's a little brochure i found a stack of them on my desk at the office when i went in last week yeah it's in the packet it's it's it's uh mia attached it she says yeah yeah i think it was it was part of the again part of that email with the updated agenda and and with the communications from other community members regarding a couple of the hearings bob i'll include that with your um february

153paper minutes okay make note and then fill me in later all right as well as the february minutes sounds good okay believe that's it and now adjourn the march 10th hdc meeting no