001just as a reminder if you would like to make a comment please call 877-852-5247 or zero 888-788-009 nine and enter the following meeting id number nine seven four six one seven four nine four one two so it was just another moment to see if anyone's calling in i'll note that there were no e-comments received for the meeting um so no other communications okay there are no callers all right thank you so now on to regular business this is agenda item dr21-001 located at 212 miller avenue the petitioner proposes to construct a four to five story eight unit residential building with units that vary in size from approximately 950 square feet to about 2300 square feet the base level is proposed to include parking garages for each unit the next three floors will include residential units
002the top level includes penthouse space for the top two residential units the existing brick home and the property is proposed to be removed vehicular and pedestrian access to the building is proposed to be from miller road the site is zone d2 which is downtown interface and is in the kerrytown character overlay um would you like to make a staff report first um dick i think you summarized pretty much um everything that i would say uh as you had indicated um the building it provides ground level parking but the next three floors would be residential and there are um two um uh penthouse um spaces uh um above the fourth floor okay thank you and i see carol huder the project arctic and tom and developer here so i would like to hand it over to
003you two and and walk us through the project um okay welcome um i don't do these often so excuse me if i'm if i move too fast and things like that um 212 miller is a planet lot in the city of ann arbor it's a standard plant size of 66 foot wide 132 feet deep as was noticed in the t2 zoning district and that's why we're here today um the developer is proposing to put a three-story building on the property the property grade falls east to west about six feet on the street and from the southeast corner to the northwest corner about eight or nine feet and that is going to allow us to come in in on the west side of the basement and have eight garages one for each of the eight units
004that are being proposed where the parking is double stacked in the garage two of the garages enter directly by stairs into the first floor units above the other six garages have elevators in them that allow people to go up to the middle first floor unit the three second floor units and the two third floor units uh the third floor has a mezzanine in it there's not a penthouse it's a mezzanine so i want to get the language correct um so that's the floor plan the base building size is 39 feet wide by 116 feet long it sets back the base building sets back 20 feet from the 309 north ashley building directly to the east which is five stories high and directly to the uh west it sets back up five to seven feet from
005that property line and that lot directly to the west which is on the corner is the parking for the apartment building that's across the street on miller okay may i interject real quickly is it possible carl for you to share drawings in the meeting so anyone participating can actually see and you can point to what you're illustrating um otherwise we're all just using it it's only verbal it's a little hard to kind of oh right well i i had a camera set up to do that but it's not functioning so i i i'm sorry is it possible for kristen to show the drawings from our packet kristen yeah she's working on it i think oh i'm just yes i can um i can pull up the design plan we can't get that phone on the
006zoom no because it only gives me the digits and i need and alpha also all right i don't know how to do it okay okay well the the iphone that we're going to use for a camera just will not we don't have enough information to bring it into the meeting so i i think kristen's going to be able to pull him up here carl let's give her a second all right um i'll just keep going on uh the okay what floor plan where do we want to go folks let's start with the site plan i think that's one of the initial drives okay this is the basement garage plan you see the 66 by 132 foot property line and the the basement level parks right up against the east side of the property and then
007it's about 19 feet off the west side of the property there's a column line and the building wall above the west wall which is at the top of your sheet the west wall curves across that elevation the next sheet please other direction kristen there you go okay so this is the site plan uh the up on the upper left-hand side is the access to the garage below uh you see these are the first floor or three units and um we have a landscaped entry courtyard for the main building wall is 20 feet from the property line and the furthest elevator shaft closest to the property line is about 14 foot 4 inches away you walk up to that level or there's a barrier free a handicap ramp going up to that level and it's landscaped
008and from that level you can enter uh each of the units for the second and third floor you enter a foyer then either get in an elevator or go up the stairs to the your unit on the second or third floor the first floor units 101 and 103 have exterior patios that will have a wood fence around them and then we'll have plantings in the landscaped area it'll have pavers uh you see the front we have stepped or terraced landscape areas going down to the sidewalk level and let's go second floor is three as three units and the third floor is the two units and then there's a mezzanine level uh the stairway continues up to that mezzanine level all right let's just stay here so uh the exterior elevations uh we have three basic
009materials uh as we're looking at this drawing the uh three quarters of the front is made up of a uh a rough textured brick uh and we're working all with lighter colors here i'm not using anything dark except for the window frames will be a dark charcoal or graphite color um then to the right the stair and elevator shafts are going to be covered with a light or white nichiwa panel product and then as we go to the left let's go down to the next elevation okay on the east elevation there's three planes of the rougher brick out in front of them is a smoother white nichiwa product each of the entry roofs will have a copper or a lexan clear roof over it those documents are included in your packet showing what they are
010the upper mezzanine area part of it is a clearer story and part of it is the mezzanine level and that up there will be covered with the tops of those roofs in that area there were covered in metal and that metal will go around as the coping around the roofs next elevation although the rear the the windows are fire rated they have glass block on them and the rear is mostly the rusticated brick but but now we're heading um around to the west elevation just a second can you turn down the value thank you all right uh now we're heading around to the west elevation next drawing okay um and this is the curved wall plane it's facing west uh and uh right now we're looking at covering this with either a light gray thin
011brick or a light gray nichiwa product and not doing the metal below the three floors are the garage doors the planning areas to your right you see and the foundation exposed will be sandblasted concrete we're setting this up to have either nine or ten foot ceilings in the units depending on what spaces they're in the building has a height i believe a total height of around 48 49 feet including the mezzanine on the top the stair towers that project up into the mezzanine level also hide the mechanical unit's review next drawing and there's a perspective sketch from the street do i have a camera we we do have a model um this is the existing building that's coming down it's not a historic building uh you can the 309 building the five-story 309 building this
012is looking for main street back down as we're dropping downhill next these are all just neighbor characters there's there's existing residential houses that are either still being used for residential uses converted to offices and the neighborhoods transitioning keep going more sort of kitty car across the street is a very large and ashley parking structure which will also provide additional parking for people coming to visit the site around the corner there's a building i worked on 40 years ago it's still there and there's another residential tower keep going um this is the building the gray line building on the corner uh this is across the street from the 309 ashley building this is the apartment complex that has the parking lot across the street that's on the west side of 212 miller okay we we have
013the iphone in the meeting but it's not letting us turn the camera on so we're trying uh this is down the hill the miller uh building right behind it is the end of a railroad track which makes this long curve through the city of ann arbor which the building that we're doing is sort of reflecting that curve facing the railroad and then beyond that is a residential next this is just character another a building in the neighborhood bill can talk these are uh recently uh developed condominium buildings in the area this one's sort of on the opposite corner of where the 212 miller building on that block there's two you're looking at two recently built condo buildings there next this building is is now under construction it's down where jcpl used to be or is
014and burke forest products at the end of the kingsley street next and then we're just going over facade materials the base of the building is going to be sand blasted concrete next uh a rusticated brick and a light color uh on the south east and north elevations and then on the west elevation either a light colored gray brick or a larger light colored gray nichiwa product next and one of these nietzsche products are what we're looking at next uh at one time we're considering using metal on the building but there was a lot of pushback on that so next we have black window frames as a picture above shows we'll have wood screens around the front and rear first floor patio spaces our front doors will be kind of like what you're seeing in six
015next uh seven either the copper roof over the doors or a um polycarbonate and metal uh curved unit over the entry doors and the balconies will be metal as you see above in the garage doors will be similar to the one below with window units in it okay that your phone is a participant that it might be that you have to turn the audio on of course okay so we it looks like we we do we have a model of we can go around the model if you want you can see the top the mezzanine area this is the west elevation all right there we go this is the west elevation going around the front of this building this it's a street view coming up into the courtyard and then down the courtyard the west
016elevation as you can see has a curve on the front of the this is really difficult showing the balconies the curve on the front of the building on the west side is a 600 foot radius which is a reference means that in 36 inches the curve is about three thirty seconds of an inch i think that's it um i see mr fitzsimmons is on do you have anything you would like to add before we go in the comments tom uh sure can you hear me yes yeah just uh a couple final statements uh one is um the the program for this building um or the initial design concept uh was um to build a a pedestrian courtyard between uh sort of this building as it goes up above some of the parking and next to
017the building i'm currently developing at the corner at 309 north ashley to create as much separation between the two buildings as possible um so we got parking basically underground a pedestrian courtyard above we'll have plantings on the pedestrian courtyard between the two buildings we've done a very similar sort of program in a development at 414 north main which we i still call the old greek church site as well as 121 kingsley west where we we have a two building program with parked underneath in a pedestrian courtyard above and so while this is two separate developments we're sort of mimicking that again to get separation get some green space between the two buildings uh and having the smaller building on the west side uh try and minimize any any impact of shading on the existing building
018that we're doing so that was really just my initial concept coming to this and then obviously working with carl we've developed it from there that's it thank you thank you both um comments who would like to start us out i have a simple one uh carl i'm not i'm not familiar with the nichiwa product i see what it looks like what is it is it metal is it a composite but what is nichiwa it's a composite it's uh typically it's a panel that's 18 inches by 48 inches a half inch or 5 8 of an inch thick it has a like a fused uh finish to the outside of it and it's it's a composite i don't know exactly what all the materials are inside of it um but it's on tom correct me it's
019on 309 right correct we used it on our 410 first project and at 309 north ashley it comes in a multitude of colors finishes anything from a high gloss metal look to a more subdued textured panel it's it's a commercial based product it's completely pre-finished not anything that we finish on site uh again we've been pretty happy with it both on um on sourcing and and the installers that we've used and um we like its flexibility it's color options um so yeah that's what that's what it is thanks thank you i had a couple questions about the site yep um if we look at the basement plan um i was wondering what the if any transition or separation you have to the west um i know there's a parking lot there now i know that
020you drive down into your garage level a little bit so are you level with that or are you above or below it no there's about a four foot grade differential and that'll be done with a um a a unit uh concrete masonry stacked landscape wall okay and there's no screening requirements because well this is a residential use and that is apparently zoned the same as this one i believe they're both d2 zoned yes then on the first floor i noticed that in your section you show a drop from the 309 ashley building to your plaza is that a retaining wall that 309 will build and what will it look like from the residential plaza site so 309 has an existing concrete foundation wall there and so we're going to strip that back and sand blast
021it as part and so it's relevant with the other sandblasted walls we have on the site so their foundation wall becomes the wall of that courtyard and it's it looks like it's four or five feet above the plaza um we're coming up onto our courtyard plaza and that's mitigating the height i'm not tom knows he's intimately involved in 309 so it's it's it's i don't think it's six feet i think it's more like four or five feet correct what's the f what's the question the the differential engraved from the 212 courtyard plaza level up to the first floor of 309. uh yeah so the first floor at 309 is 8 13. and that wall extends about a foot to a foot and a half above that 813 so four to four and a half feet
022uh of wall and then it also has a two foot railing on top of it again from the 309 side uh to to bring it up for a railing code so ultimately if you're on the plaza at 212 sorry um you're gonna be looking at a four foot plus wall with a small railing on top of that and what's the use directly on the 309 site is it is it just landscape between the 309 building and the wall or is it the patios for the ground floor units well it's a mix we have a stair tower that comes all the way out to the property line we have a an actual living unit that comes out to that wall in the rear and we have a sidewalk coming up it's actually a second egress exit
023off the front um so uh yeah we will have living space essentially butting that wall in that railing for about half that distance um hence the the in my view the the need for the courtyard and we will be putting full-sized trees and planters on that courtyard as well as various other landscaping elements which again we've done in two other courtyard type buildings in ann arbor and the berry free ramp to your plaza will share that wall on one side it looks like uh well yeah so again that wall for 309 is right on the property line and we are uh budding that at our parking level and which would obviously then also because we're building the pedestrian courtyard above that would abut that so the ramp would come up right next to that also
024correct okay thank you sure well we're on that the outdoor space i'll i guess i'll follow on um i think uh first of all i think it's a very creative use of topography and space to get all of these things to fit and work together and provide some amenities outdoor and indoor so i commend you on that your creative approach to navigating all of that um a couple of questions i have um are on the privacy screens and the patios i can see obviously the one on the street side um i thought that you mentioned there were more in that um terrace space can you clarify a little bit what other private kind of patio zones are um being planned okay so there's the front one that you just mentioned and then the rear unit
025at the rear of the courtyard we're going to put a patio in there and have that screened with a wood screen and each of the entries to the units uh just outside the unit we're going to have a planter that we hope uh the tenants use to put flowers in and stuff like that so they kind of get you know our house has the hollyhocks and their house has deltiniums or something like that um so there's some connection between the unit owners and a small bit of landscaping out there but the the other six units on the second and third floor all have their balconies out to the outside okay so there's just two patios that are out at grade or at the um courtyard grade that's gonna take the front of the building in
026the back of the building the rest of that courtyard plaza minus those planters is kind of shared use um for all of the uh residents correct true okay um i i guess um in general i mean the image that you shared for the patio enclosure is finished and refined it it just doesn't quite feel like a street side um character it feels uh like a barrier to the building in a way that doesn't feel very super friendly i mean i think when you have the refined and the quality materials that you're showing it has a bit of a different presence but a full height screen wall feels a little bit um i don't know i guess i feel like it would be nice to have a space that wasn't quite so cordoned off and private
027that had a little bit more of a transparency to the building um than having a full tight screen well i understand that residents would want a little bit more privacy that close to the street but it does kind of present a different front to the building and how it resolves with the window elevations is a bit awkward too you know there's kind of kind of almost to the top of those windows and i understand looking from the street that angle is going to change a bit but it feels a bit tacked on i guess so how can it feel more integrated and feel like a piece of the building that is connected to the plaza and also connected to the street in a little bit more of an integrated way hunter jeff do you have
028anything [Music] um i agree with lori's comment about the screen wall but overall i think it's a nice nice looking building it looks like a nice project i have a question about the camp the canopies over the entries um are you saying it's going to be one or the other or a combination of the two one or the other all right well i like the idea of the standing seam metal versus the the polycarbonate um and if if that's the route that you go um that would be my choice but if that's the route you go i i'd like to see maybe you increasing the pitch on those roofs uh over the doors because at that low a slope um you know standing down at grade uh you're really not going to see the material
029and i think it's a welcome material to add sort of to this palette so if i look at for instance your um your your rent your 3d view on whatever page that is but at any rate that view shows the roofs pretty nicely but you'll never see them from that angle and the angle that you do see them from i don't think you'll see the material at all so that that's my only comment about the roofs i i definitely prefer the copper versus the the plastic um and otherwise i think it's a nice looking project um and i think it fits well into the character i like the way landscaping with with a tight sight like this to be able to get all that landscaping in there i think it's gonna [Music] make a nice
030addition to miller and then i just have one more question and that is from a lot of the correspondence that went back and forth between you carl and the planning department was there ever a resolution to whether that is a bay window or part of the part of the wall uh i'm i'm looking for a definitive some definition of what they're operating off of it looks like a big window to me so okay and most of the stuff i've i i'm i'm you you see the conversation where we want a uh answer about what they're using as criteria of why the bay window's not a bay window i can speak to that we've had multiple staff meetings about it staff is unanimous in their opinion about bay windows if a bay window has a floor
031it's floor area it's not a bay window um that's how we're interpreting it and um that that's that's how uh brett isn't is is interpreting it and each of the staff members so so jeff this is thompson simmons uh that's uh and and and uh jeff khan also um so that's the first i've heard that so if we if that front bay window if we raise that up two feet so there's a shelf in the in that first floor unit we're good you call it a bay window then i i would like to see it first but but that's the concept with the floor if it goes down to the floor it's floor area if it's up above the floor it's a bay window that's that's generally the concept okay thank you and thank you
032thank you very much go ahead yeah so where is that definition coming from jeff [Music] we uh discussed uh where where code uh describes it i can i can forward you that uh material uh after the meeting um but um this is how staff has been interpreting bay bay windows for for a very long time so when you how long a long time because you have there are other buildings built in the past 10 15 years in downtown ann arbor with bay windows that are floor area so i i i'm they were allowed but this one's not even though you can go online and find thousands of pictures of bay windows that are floor area and as i pointed out the very chicago school of architecture is predicated on these walk-out bay windows and that
03324-inch walk-out bay window became such a standard it's written into all these zoning ordinances and building codes such as ann arbor's but nowhere do i see a definition on bay windows in webster or oxford or the architectural dictionaries i own that say that a bay window does not have cannot have usable floor area and as the examples i presented they all show usable floor area so i like i said in my emails which the board has copies of if we knew what the target was then we could shoot at it but so far i don't know what the target is well carl we do now we do now yes right so i appreciate those comments but now we can take it back with the other comments we've received and uh and look at how we
034uh can modify this to make it a better project i i'll take a look we'll take a look obviously at the screen wall comments and the standing seam roof comments too and i'll come back with a better project yep so i i i'm already we're looking at uh and then the other uh issue has to be with is this three stories high or is it four stories high um and i'm i produced a document using the uniform development code that demonstrates that it's a three-story facade and that same reasoning was used to make 309 north ashley directly east of this project also be a three-story facade and i'm still waiting to hear if that summary that i gave is correct that's not how staff interpret it we staff met earlier today to discuss it um
035brett was firm with um the street wall being exceeding three feet um you could request a variance for that but that's that's staff's interpretation so could you clearly explain to me why 309 which has more of the lower level parking garage exposed than 212 is compliant and this is not no that's right and uh carl i yeah this is a zoning matter and it's not in our purview right so i appreciate the conversation but maybe you could take it offline after the meeting and resolve it thanks dick um you know when i when i reviewed the design um for uh compliance with the design guidelines i noticed a couple of zoning issues and as a courtesy i wanted to point that out as soon as i i found them and so i did forward that
036information to the architect and the um and the developers as soon as i identified that and i did speak to staff to confirm my interpretation before that but dick thank you for saying that they are zoning issues we can address them prior to the submittal of a site plan could i ask a question back to the i understand the the the street elevation so forth it gets kind of back to the zoning issue back to the bay window just for a second did i interpret it correctly that each of the three floors you'd have to raise the floor above i mean the the bottom of the bay window whatever you were calling this thing above the floor area in order for each floor you'd have to raise that up so it technically wouldn't have three
037floor area projections into the setback i'm just trying to get a point of clarification because i'm confused about that i think they're saying they could create a window it would have to create a windows so that it was not necessarily floor area that's what that's what i would introduce there'd be some infill in each one but it it could be expressed as a continuous element on the exterior but on the interior what i'm hearing is there would need to be a sill at three feet or something so from the exit and that's why i'm interpreting and understanding it too so from the exterior it would still look the same as it does now in elevation and in section but in the interior you'd have a window seat in all three levels and that would solve
038it is that right jeff from from our from our lands um if if a window goes all the way down to the floor and includes floor area uh it it counts as florida that is part of the building this all comes down to the front setback requirement which is 15 feet i get that my point is if they put a window seat and just brought the glass down to the window seat from it but still had like a blank there the exterior would still look the same but instead of the glass going all the way to the floor level it would go down to the window seat and you'd have a just a panel at each one but that's something i'd certainly be willing to look at that i mean it sounds like that's the
039technically what you're looking at that's my assumption that the elevation can stay the same as long as there's not floor area for someone to walk into just as a kind of clarification is the problem because we are going to exceed some floor area ratio for the site or is the problem because we're projecting into the front yard step back it's a it's a front yard setback issue yeah it's the ladder jeff but just let's just say it was but if you're still with this the new design we're talking about is still projecting into that it's just that technically it isn't usable floor area that's projecting into it the building is still projected the projection is still the same it's just that the floor area isn't projecting in is that right i think you're right bill
040yeah but putting putting window seats in there changes the the sort of the the geometry of the glass and all that so that i mean this is one of those things where maybe this uh maybe the spirit of the code is limiting the floor projecting into the front yard setback but this is one of those things where my old boss david oscar will be screaming bloody murder but i i don't want to see this bay design change so i hope we can figure out a way forward there would still be spandrel panels though at the interstitial space the framing space there'd be something opaque there i i assume it would just be bigger clear glass and spandrel and now there'd be bigger spandrel panels well i carl pointed out that there are other buildings i
041don't know which ones that project in that project out and have that kind of call it a bay or not the floor-to-ceiling glass but i assume the technicality is there that those projections don't go into a setback area yes they project out over the street sidewalks oh okay but most of the examples were from other cities right the the examples i some the few i showed yes i i collected but i mean you could spend your lifetime looking at bay windows on the internet i i think it it's safe for you jeff kahn to take back that that we feel the more glass in that bay window the better and whether or not it's allowed is a zoning matter but we we'd rather see more glazing as originally intended is that is do people agree
042with me i agree yeah i agree and recognize that it's a slippery slope um as a way to kind of feel more floor plan space for future projects right like as soon as you start to allow this it gets challenging when the next project comes up and is slightly less like a bay window and slightly more like just a building that gets bigger so i do want to be cognizant of what that is and i i wonder if it doesn't um and you can i can be out of line for suggesting but are we exceeding the other setbacks in a way that we can say that this isn't an advantage to the facade and it accomplishes these things and then we would have variance around that that is acceptable in our opinion because of the
043graciousness of the side yard um situation just throwing that out there as a consideration lori i'm not sure if you were asking a question or just offering an observation i guess i'm saying i i am hesitant to say we like it so you should allow it when it's not allowable typically right i mean i i agree that it's preferred from a design standpoint to have that all the way down to the floor um i guess i just wonder what the mechanism might be to appropriately kind of balance the intent of the um requirements with some of the other uh some of the other ways the site has been used and balanced relative to the other setbacks and i think you're suggesting that maybe the east side setback is greater than than required is is that
044what we're asking yeah i don't know the answer either is that the case carl well so we're developing a site uh under just the regular d2 zoning orange allows 200 build out and we're doing 160 build out so we're under there uh we could build all the way to the lot lines but you need some space for windows and whatnot so we could be five foot off uh work and and we're building a building you know it could be i think 60 feet is the maximum height we're doing because as as i note my narrative as we're going down the hill we're transitioning from the larger urban buildings at main street towards the residential neighborhood and we're and we're and we're adding this building that's sort of starting that step down process and hopefully other
045people will take off from that and the next building to us will be lower than that um i i mean again it's i've had a very difficult time as i immediately answer staff's questions within 24 or 48 hours and then waiting for their answers back um of why uh my own house has a bay window that projects over the front setback here in the city of ann arbor and i'm just you know i and then as i drove around town the other examples i go well how did they do that 309 ashley has balconies that project five feet out into the front setback but there's nothing in the zoning ordinance about allowing those or not and so i uh it the the uniform development code specifically says you know it says bay windows cornices blah
046blah blah doesn't say anything about balconies and it says 24 inches but right next door there's 60 inch projections so i it's when you i i don't one project gets it and the other doesn't and they're right next door to each other so it's just i think this you're getting back into the conversation before i understand yeah yeah but but we we did bring it up and so i think your takeaway is if allowed by zba or by the city other bodies than this one we we like the way it's been designed in terms of appearance but we we can't tell you if it's allowed or not it's not our purview but i could carry your like to a zoning board of appeals meeting and say the drp liked it absolutely i've got a comment
047about something else good um i mean the other option would be to move the front wall back two feet and i realized that'll take something out of every garage but then you'd have your bay window on the front setback but my comment was about the plaza elevation and the lack of windows at the first floor um the which elevation carry the plaza elevation which is the east elevation i realized that with the elevators and so forth it makes it really complicated to have windows into the first floor of the units it would be nice to at least have some side lights uh or something on the doors that are uh opening onto the plaza also it would give you a reason to beef up your front door canopies potentially so they would be a little
048larger scale which i think would help as well but um you know i think the plaza would be enriched if if you had the ability to kind of communicate visually with the units if possible and then i also wanted to ask how the mezzanine works you know i can see your section but i don't really understand how the mezzanine will work and will the mezzanine be accessible to the roof going backwards yes it'll be accessible to the roof and if if you look at the east elevation the top of this third floor stair tower that if if you go into the stair tower straight in and then past the stair going down and then go to the next there's a flight of stairs that goes straight up into the mezzanine and so on the east
049elevation you're seeing this shed roof that's the top of those stairs um flanking the clear story windows that you're looking at and that leads right up to that mezzanine okay all right john do you have anything to add well um i enjoyed the comments i love the building and uh i i agree that the the front facade is great uh that i i i think it's it's a good addition to ann arbor i leave it to staff to determine whether it's allowable or not but i would i would hope they would find a way to make that happen again i i want to piggyback on jeff i like the use of copper if it's all possible uh and and with lori in terms of screening that you know if we can allow it uh to
050uh not be so much a barrier to uh to the sidewalk the pedestrian experience uh and uh and and you know it's living downtown i mean that's that's what happens you know you have people walking by so those are the only comments i think it's a great building and uh i hope you can work out the details with staff thank you um and i have just one comment about the um east plaza which i really think is an is a great approach uh to the building to the east they have that little relief between the two buildings really works i i think it'll probably only get on a sunny day two or three hours of daylight and so you might want to look at some hardscape materials that that will not be dependent upon um
051growth um and some hearty plant materials that will survive but but i think that's a real opportunity to develop a really nice little space similar to that interior courtyard at kerrytown that everyone loves so much it's just a real special little spot so i'm glad you did that in and good luck with the landscaping i'm sure there's a way to solve it if i may add to that i think as you move further into the detail it would be wonderful if that space had some interesting lighting so that at night it really felt like an amenity on the street as well so i'm sure in that sort of enclosure you can factor that in but it would be nice to um incorporate that so it's a you know a winter long summer long evening long
052um asset to the street yeah john i'm sorry one one more i'm the art commission representative so i have the obligation of trying to encourage uh public art have you considered uh using public art in your project in any way carl i i always do um and that's a conversation that tom and i have to go through um but it's it's on my hit list but not kind of early in the game i guess we left the cat out of the bag john well uh the public art commission stands are ready to help in any way that we can okay all right i want to thank everybody uh i think we're done with the comments uh all your input is very important to me and uh we certainly will build off it i i enjoy
053participating in things like this so thank you very much and i hope you'll see your input expressed on the outside of this building as it continues forward so thank you thank you carl thank you tom thank you very much for the comments as always next time you bet i don't see anything on the agenda of kristen or jeff under unfinished business or communication says anything come in recently kristin mentioned that there will be a meeting next month yes what is the project let me see what that the the project is um uh 330 detroit street which is just um north of the detroit filling station it's a triangular shaped building i think mr fitzsimmons is associated with that project as well and um um i believe that they may have uploaded their design materials uh
054as recently as today so uh kristen and i will be getting involved with that project and hopefully you'll be able to have a look at that one um sometime in in november good thank you i i have to ask for public comment one more time so if you'll bear with me if anyone would like to speak to the project that we just reviewed um please call 877-852-5247 or 888 and enter the following meeting id 974-61749412 and we'll just give a minute for people to call in if they're there there are no callers okay all right well i think um we are done and it is going to be great to say we'll see you all next week or next month take care everybody thank you bye bye everyone