Ann Arbor Housing Board of Appeals Meeting 6/8/21

001hi everyone welcome um i would like to call the ann arbor housing board of appeals meeting to order sorry i'm looking i have such a such a long uh packet today so um deborah could you do a roll call for us please and i believe everyone needs to state since we're uh doing this remotely where you are calling in from very good thank you we'll start with questions break over present attending remotely from pittsfield township michigan lisa stelter president attending remotely from ann arbor michigan angela rasmussen president attending remotely from ann arbor michigan jerry schulte uh president attending remotely from ann arbor michigan tim durham president attending uh remotely from ann arbor very good for staff i've got brandy lewis president attending remotely from adrian michigan alicia turner tolbert president attending remotely from augusta township

002brandon boggs president attending remotely from ann arbor michigan lynn dempsey president attending remotely from mason michigan michael redman president attending remotely city of ann arbor michigan michael lemieux president and remotely from ann arbor michigan and john reiser president from ann arbor michigan roll call is complete and we do have a quorum excellent thank you so much um up next we have an approval of agenda i think there are two minor modifications um let's see one is that we will be moving the kellogg property to the july meeting and i believe the other piece is that the sunny side address on the agenda is incorrect it should be 907 sunny side not one zero zero two however in the rest of the packet detail it is correct um so beyond those two items um are there

003any other notes for the agenda otherwise i would entertain a motion to approve it given those two changes alicia had a correction for um the hba g1 item that it should be hba instead of bba right got it thank you any other items okay not seeing any hands or hearing anyone could um i have a motion to approve the agenda as amended please approve the agenda as amended sorry angie is there a second okay oh i think tim might have beat lisa out on that one that's fine we'll give it to tim sorry lisa there'll be more opportunities later i'm sure all right thank you so much all in favor of approving the agenda as amended please signify by saying aye aye opposed same sign all right our amended agenda is approved moving on to

004public commentary um each individual who would like to address the board has three minutes to do so however if you are one here for an appeal you'll also have an opportunity under that specific appeal is there someone that would like to address the board deborah can you let us know we have george and caitlin caitlin you have your hand up please feel free to speak hi uh my name is kaitlyn um my husband john and i are moving um to the vandusen house um in three weeks um and we just wanted to voice our support um in favor of the variants um we've lived in ann arbor for uh four years now and we're really excited to be moving into this property that's so well maintained relative to the other places that we've lived here

005so far so um we were able to tour the property ourselves in person um and we visited the basement we didn't notice anything out of the ordinary with the stairs so nothing raised the flag for us and john has been really forthcoming with us about this whole process and wanted to make sure that we were kept in the loop about um everything so um we just wanted to express our like approval of the process and support for uh the variance requests thanks caitlyn debora is there anyone else that would like to address the board i see no other ones in the waiting room okay all right up next is the um approval of the minutes on our agenda we have the housing board of appeals meeting minutes from april 13th are there any changes to

006the minutes i'll take everyone can take just a minute to peek at them they were sent out to all of us ahead of time me all right would someone like to make a motion to approve the minutes i made the motion okay i'm sorry lisa stelter i make a motion to approve the minutes thanks lisa do i have a second i second the motion all right lisa first tim second to approve the minutes all in favor please say aye aye aye same sign all right minutes are approved um we have amended the agenda so at this point the old business was moved to our july agenda so we will move on to new business up first is the variance appeal for and i'm not i don't have the address in front of me now because

007the agenda was amended um let's see that is four five nope that's the wrong one sorry i'm scrolling through my 100 sorry 44 page uh packet here a thousand two sunnyside thank you well i think that's a 907. it's 997. yeah the agenda was was incorrect but you're right 907. right because the property owner is 1002 sunnyside okay so um the request is for an appeal for fire exits um at 907 sunnyside can we have the staff report please yes um so the house was built in 1942 seems to be original construction during some research some older permits were found and staff recommends that the variants not be granted as the stairway does not meet the standards adopted at the time of construction nor the current building code standards and does not comply with the

008minimum requirements of section 8504 of the housing code there's a building permit from 1966 that describes the work as rebuilt back entrance to basement stairway the code requirements for stairways in the 1960s would require a 9 inch minimum tread depth i included on the attachments the permit from 1965. thank you and i looked um in the packet and i guess i had a question on the schematics it looked like on the lower level is that a door to the exterior out of the storage study just given the front of the house i would have been surprised to see that sorry it's on page 23 of my packet if that's helpful i know it's hard to scroll perhaps the owner could answer that when we uh turn it over to him um so thank you for

009the staff report is there anything else to note from staff can the can the board ask questions now yeah great um could you provide the conversations you've had with the owner in terms of what types of um modifications the city would be looking for in this instance um i mean the city would need the steps to meet minimum building code standards um i haven't had conversations with the owner myself um brandon have you spoken with the owner um i haven't had any conversations in some time is there a sufficient landing space at the bottom to make that modification that's a question for city staff brandon can you recall from your site visit uh from what i can recall i do believe there would be room to extend that down some more thank you i guess

010i was looking at maybe it was page 24 of my packet or scrolling further down because you can see the um the lower level where the staircase ends in that storage study room keep scrolling keep scrolling here we go the lower level hey brandon what if the uh treads just protruded out an extra inch i believe that would be okay that would do it yes there's no head room implications at the bottom not that i can recall off the top of my head it's been some while since i've been on this inspection is it possible to to make that any different it doesn't look like you could add another it doesn't look like you could modify that any differently than what it is well i think if you made the treads stick out an extra

011inch that would do the trick right um but we have to keep in mind too that treads are measured from nosing to nosing ah so yeah so if you extend just the treads you still run into the same problem because of where the measurement needs to occur all right thanks uh if i could check just slightly um could could staff um brandon or mike could you guys just explain the implications of this um violation and what kind of um what kind of hazard it would cause having the threads um not be at the correct measurement so essentially they become a trip hazard the placement of a foot on the step the more narrow you make that the more likely you are to misstep um the the wider the tread it gives you a better footing

012um to make sure that that you're you know able to go up and down the stairs as you would expect in um in any common stair situation once you start varying from what is like commonly accepted it increases the chance of somebody falling thank you i have a question on the receipt uh from october 7th of 65 of of uh you know evidence that the stair was modified after it was built i have a hard time construing from this exactly what work was done do we know specifically what was done under this this this was the only record in part of the reason that it came to the board was because it mentions the stairway and i couldn't conclude whether or not during that process the stairs were modified yeah i mean it could have

013been maintenance work or anything with this type of description yeah yeah i can get as much from it as you can okay um yeah it's not very clear um maybe the the property owner can speak to it yes i was just thinking let's hear from george yes so this is york zeller i'm the property owner i think there's a misunderstanding here so of what stairs we are talking about in part so the back entrance if you look at the lower level there is a back entrance door and outside the back end when store here on the south side of the lower level there is a staircase that is um however not drawn into the floor plan and if you look in the permit that was filed by payroll in 1966 it states that it worked

014on the back entrance staircase pair being a concrete and base are like foundation and basement contractor i would assume have repaired or renewed a concrete staircase on the back entrance which is this i mean i've taken pictures of that it's not included in the variance application but i assume that the um the permit that was filed in 1966 by prior refers to this back entrance staircase while the um staircase that i applied a variant or i follow the variance force the one that is drawn in in the storage study going up to the kitchen so it's shown both in the lower level i said staircase that goes up to the kitchen or it's in the ground level that comes down and from the kitchen into the basement so i think there is a confusion about

015uh which um staircase high euro filed an application i found a permit for in 1966 and the staircase that i apply here that i uh filed a variance for um is it does it does that make sense what i said can i just ask a clarifying question so you're you're saying that there's this so the the door at the south end of the storage study is an exterior door that leads immediately up a concrete staircase outside yes and we think that's what the permit might be for based on how you're being right and it's a concrete staircase i have taken pictures of it yesterday i could show them to you i i can also could send it i put them in a pdf file um i could send it by email if i'm allowed um

016and look at that you can see and these staircases are to code the threat depth there is 10 inches of that concrete staircase the riser is seven inches and they are over four feet wide and i assume that the permit filed pi by pi euro since it states uh back entrance um refers to this staircase but but it is different from the staircase that is in the storage study area which i believe is original to the house and was built in 1942 this this is lisa stelter and i've been selling real estate for 35 years in ann arbor i've never seen payer do work to an interior um staircase i believe that the gentleman is correct and he's talking about the exterior foundation because payer is a foundation cement basement contractor so i i agree

017that i don't believe that any of the payers would have ever touched interior steps that was my conclusion their assumption kind of in asking the question also that this potentially was a different stair than what we were looking at so could one assume then those steps that were we're talking about were the original steps to the house yes i mean so the variants are applied for they are inside the house and i believe they're original and um i looked at the possibility to extend the noses i think that that wouldn't be feasible or to remove the threats i would have to completely remove the staircase and rebuild it or have it done by a contractor there is our help there is however sufficient space there to bring it a little further out i think that

018is true too and um i see i'm here um but i had not turned my camera on but i can show you here this is the uh a picture here of the outside staircase oops which i believe that's the one that piour has filed a permit for and this staircase has a 10 inch thread depth a seven inch riser over four ups feet in width so this is kristin i guess i have a question back maybe to the city um so the primary purpose for the stair rise and runs are you know for obviously exit um given that there's a secondary exit to this space does that meet the intent of the code or does the city feel because there's stairs all stairs should comply with the code because those stairs are there and existing

019in their part of the space they should conform to code okay and then uh mr zeller did you happen to get any estimates of what the cost might be to rebuild those stairs when you were uh investigating this issue i did not um um would i be allowed to rebuild in myself or i'd ask the city to answer that uh that would be up to the building official but uh that would have to be done by a licensed builder license builder yeah since the residential uh rental property it would be required that the person have a residential builder's license so the city used to approve eight inch threat depth staircases [Music] is there a change in the interpretation of the code there uh there's no change in the um the language to the code so

020our code's been around since about 65 66 and all stair treads have to be a minimum of nine inches the reason i was asking there's another application there about a staircase and there it said the eight inch um thread depth in that application would i think qualify for variants but for other purposes since there's a winder in there it wouldn't and that's why i'm asking um so we still have a confusion on this one of what was original um to the home and if we're seeing evidence that that we are if we're going to accept that the permit was for a separate set of stairs then it would be under a different consideration but because there was an outstanding a permit issued for that um we would need to reconsider it once we've determined if

021the work was done on that back staircase um and that would that would be a different consideration that's where there's a difference between the two uh staff reports between the two different properties well it's not two different properties but there's the applica the variance i've filed is for the staircase from the basement into the kitchen while the outside back entrance staircase was not flagged during the city inspection i'm going to go ahead and make a clarification here as i look at the inspection report which we apologize it should have been included in the staff report but um actually both of the staircases were flagged um and so but i agree with you that you what you are applying for um you pointed out the correct one that you're applying for but they were both flagged

022on the report the front uh staircase was flagged and that is repaired it's the front entrance that is in the city report where the visor was too high it was ten inches and could not be more than nine inches that is corrected but the city report from brandon box does not flag any issues with the back staircase okay thank you for that clarification so so i mean if i understand it correctly um if the staircase is original to the house by 1942 it would be the variance would be granted is that correct or would be considered original to the house and and could be granted i think that's what mike lemieux was just expressing that we would need to probably um bring this back to the board and we would need to look at it

023from a different angle because i think we had information about a different set of stair stairs um and so it would need to be re-reviewed and we can't give you a definite answer that it would be approved or not approved but we would need to review that and make sure that it is the original staircase and from perspective two comments one i'd say the payers bill of sale or whatever to me does not you know i don't think it has much relevance here because it's uncertain it was for the stairway and likely it wasn't um and i would say too in in the past this board there has been a precedent for approving you know eight inch treads in older homes where they were you know originally installed provided it it represented a significant hardship

024and sometimes that does particularly you know if you have landings that can't be adjusted you know it's pretty extensive to to modify a house for the newer tread requirements i have a question is there an egress window in the basement and what is the purpose of the basement space there is equest windows two of them and there's a back door uh the purpose of the basement space is um it's used as storage and it is also used there's a separate mechanical room with a furnace washer dryer there a washer sink and the basement is also there's a desk in there so there are two egress windows plus the the old payer steps to get to the outside of that building yes yes thank you and the steps there are to code okay are there any

025other questions or discussion based on what i'm hearing um it sounds like given the information on the it's not really a permit right it's an it's a note from payer um does the city want to take this back and review it further before bringing to the board next month or would you like us to proceed with a vote are you asking city staff i'm sorry yeah i am asking city staff sorry um i i think that um if we would like it to be timely for the applicant a vote now would be the quickest way to resolve the issue but if the if it needs to come back for a staff review we're happy to do that as well okay right um well i guess i will look to the board do you have board

026do you have any final questions or considerations or are you prepared to make a motion and who would like to make that motion glenn did you have something to say before we move on uh yes i do um i have a question how many steps are involved in this staircase in question and what kind of hardship would it be in replacing the treads or rebuilding the staircase being a little bit familiar with cost of construction although lumber has gone through the ceiling i'm not sure that it couldn't be reframed and rebuilt uh reasonably without too much of a hardship but that's just my opinion and may i answer here yes so so i looked at this uh the the threats cannot be removed easily um applying a replic an extended bull nose someone would have

027to it's it's um i believe six or seven steps i think it's six seven with the landing uh or it might be eight with seven it's it's it's six steps i think they'd have to be modified and so that would have to be the first one one inch and the last one six inches full nose extension uh the tread uh removing the tread i looked at that that's not easily doable someone would have to rebuild it is it possible to you know scab on successive longer nosings to the treads and then re-support underneath if you follow me right um my impression was rebuilding the whole thing might be easier than doing that um so so if you push the bottom step out into that room another six inches would that uh did anybody notice brandon

028for instance i'm just going to ask about the headroom again imagine that bottom step being six inches further out into that room did you notice if there was a headroom issue if you had to stand on that top step or the bottom step but it was further out no i i don't know what that impact would be without running the measurements the reason i'm asking is because if you not only had to rebuild the stairs but then carve out more head room on the way down that's a little bit more significant i think there's a initiative headroom there and remember brendan measuring it and it's but um it's tied with the headroom and the bottom stairs or the bottom two stairs okay well i guess i'm looking through and and i'm looking at the reasons

029for a variance and it's practical difficulties or undue hardship variance does not violate the intent of section 8 502 of the ann arbor housing code the variance does not jeopardize public health and safety and i think you know part of the reason for the rise in the run is is fire safety and fire exits and we've got an exterior method for that here um so i mean again it's a benefit a lot of basements don't have but i also understand that there's um that the staircase could be rebuilt it would be helpful to obviously have that information about headroom um and without knowing that it's hard to say whether or not that's a viable option right because and i'd also state that given the age of the house and the head clearances it's you know

030not unreasonable to assume that you may be creating a clearance issue by just extending those nosings out which then does create in my mind a hardship one i see your hand up i might suggest that um we revisit it to see if there is a headroom problem and bring it back to the board because that would be a true hardship if we do have a headroom problem because that's also an issue it's just a suggestion thank you thanks glenn you're given that you're the applicant here um i don't know what your timeline is um if waiting another month to gather some more information would be acceptable yeah i mean if that's the reasonable thing to do yes um where are we with site visits nowadays with the coveted times and are we uh we able

031to do that alicia yes as a matter of fact you can what we would ask is that you just um instead of like i think traditionally maybe three members will go so what we would do is maybe one or two would go um and in in intervals into the house so that we don't have a um big group of people in the house at one time but you are certainly welcome to do site visits and we can set that up from the staff perspective tim just are we talking a site visit or are we talking about the city you know in this case there's nothing i think we can see what we need to see from the pictures in this case it's just confirmation or that you know extending these treads out would or wouldn't

032create a head clearance issue because in in my mind this was original construction uh there's a precedent for accepting an eight-inch tread and original construction provided that it's it's a hardship you know significant hardship to alter the stairs so that's kind of the information we we don't really have today and we can make assumptions but but yeah if you're now talking about cutting away ceilings somehow on the floor above uh i think you're definitely getting into a hardship at least in my mind that's what i would want to know you have to carve into the ceiling above because then whatever is above it that also has to be altered and so on but it's hard to tell from these pictures therefore at least maybe uh one of the staff revisiting right and though other means

033is the house currently vacant um it is not vacant right now but we could make it so all right well it sounds like the owner is willing to have enough the city come back out there and evaluate the head room um if the staircase were to be extended and so if that is something that could be done i guess i would maybe entertain a motion to um table this appeal to our july meeting pending more information on whether or not um extending the stair tread would cause a hardship well and and kristen do we also want to request so if if there's not a clearance issue would we ask the owner to get a price on what it would cost to modify the stairs so we can consider that also as to whether that represents

034a hardship or not i think that would certainly support a case of hardship all right not hearing any other discussion i'm gonna i'm gonna throw my head in the ring and make a motion to table this um appeal to our july meeting pending additional information from both the appellant and the city do i have a second a second thanks tim all in favor please post all right thank you thanks everyone for that discussion i look forward to revisiting the issue next month thank you do we have a date of that meeting just because i understand from the letter that the tenants were trying to july first so i'd like to be able to give them off that's our next appeal okay oh yeah yep so our next appeal is the one where we heard caitlyn

035um for 12 30 van dusen sorry about that i was black john i think it's helpful to know the date of the july meeting anyway and i want to say that is july 13th does that sound right deborah um the hba meeting is indeed july 13th excellent we have like 17 screens open in front of me so i guess it's better than a pile of papers okay moving on to the next item on our agenda which is the variance appeal for 12 30 van dusen i'm just going to scroll all the way down to that piece in the pellet packet okay and it looks like this is an appeal for fire exits for a variance from 8 504 4b2 for stair tread um as well as the winder section so could we have the staff

036report on this please staff recommend that the variants not be granted as the stairway does not meet the standards adopted at the time of construction nor the current building code standards and does not comply with the minimum requirements of section 8504 of the housing code the buildings department would administratively approve the tread depth of 8 inches but cannot allow the winder part of the stairway to remain as it has been deemed unsafe by the building official which is allowed per section r102.7 that's an attachment here and must meet the requirements of section 311.7.5.2.1 of the 2015 michigan residential code that's also attached and that specifies the requirements for the winder stairs in particular when we go to the picture on this you can see the element that is most concerning um and it's in the

037um the narrow corners the stair turns um and you have almost two two step heights there where there's not anything for a foot to land on um and i think that that presents uh a serious hazard okay and can you just provide the level of detail of what the stair winder sizes are and what um is approved so that we can understand um the variance here yeah um uh i guess are you asking for the code section requirements the code section requirements and then uh just looking at the winders and maybe i'm not seeing it right now what those winders are um and how far away they are from being approved does that make sense yeah let me i have the code section attached let me get to it give me one second i've done

038something to my packet here have zoomed in way too close let me just pull up my code hook real quick and i can get to that spectrum all right so winder treads shall have a tread depth of not less than 10 inches measured between the vertical planes of the foremost projections of adjacent treads at the intersection with the walk line winder treads shall have a minimum depth of not less than 6 inches at any point within the clear width of the stair with any flight of stairs the largest winder tread depth at the walk line shall not exceed the smallest winder tread depth by more than 3 8 of an inch consistently shaped winders at the walk line shall be allowed within the same flight of stairs at rectangular treads and do not have to

039be within the 3 8 inch of the rectangular depth so essentially the the concerning part to me when we look at the step tread is that she shouldn't her camp be less than six inches at any point and when we look at the pictures of how that winder stair works you can see where you know there's there's essentially nothing for a foot to land on for several inches on that step and then that kind of continues for multiple steps can we show that um drawing again or the the photo of the uh reminders sorry i was muted uh i think it's page 38 if if i've got it right 42 ah man i don't know it's 38 on mine but yeah it's probably 42. that sounds good that one oh go back oh sorry i

040was giving you the photo sorry about that kristen you were right do we know what the distance is between the last full the tread nine and presumably the basement wall where it says foundation wall i'm assuming we don't uh but can you can you repeat that question again do we know the distance between the the nosing of tread number nine as it's listed and the foundation wall directly below it is there sufficient width there for you know egress my thought is could the bottom winder sections be replaced so 10 11 and 12 become a landing and then you know you have uh treads then extending out to the left into the basement and i know our job's not to design it uh but i'm just thinking in terms of hardship because right now you've got

041a first floor elevation you've got a wall so anything that extends the eight inch uh tread width is going to create you know you're just running into a wall which which gets to be a hardship but potentially one solution to this is to create a landing at what's now tread 10 and then continue with landing it with stairs at the same rise and run you know down to the basement if the drawing is to scale it says one inch equals one foot and i'm assuming that each square is based on one inch if i'm reading this right but again it's going to be a guesstimate i don't have the strict measurements i think one square equals three inches ish one square equals three inches okay yeah that would but again it looks like there's 30

042the the photos may be deceiving and it looks like that landing would be much narrower but from the uh sketch it looks like the landing potentially would have the same width as the stair width of 32 inches maybe even more i think it's 32 okay what's the minimum for a landing is there one there is here i would say you're somewhat constrained by the existing stairway it looks like it would be a good idea but would you have headroom issues again if you uh made that stair 10 a landing and then did the 11 12 13 down to a 90 degree angle yeah you're also taking up some real estate in the basement i don't know what's there if you've got clearance at the bottom but yeah those are all good questions um i i'm

043sorry i'm the homeowner i don't know the procedure to be able to hi john go for it um so if you um look because that uh i immediately thought could i sneak that landing at tread 10 if you look to the left side of that same page i was going to point to it on my laptop but you wouldn't see where i was you can see where it says height from winder steps to basement ceiling and so at tread 10 from the top of tread 10 to the basement ceiling is 65 inches and three quarters which is not enough headroom and then if you and then i did it for tread 11 tread 12 tread 13 and tread9 and there um there isn't enough headroom um there is enough room to run uh run into

044the basement the catch is the head room okay thank you well that explains why they didn't do it that way in the first place hi john this is angie is there an egress window or another way out of that basement besides these stairs there are three egress windows two that are in what would be the continuation of the room that the stairs discharge into and then there is another room in that basement and it has an egress window as well okay just checking on the being able to get out if there was a tripping situation glenn i can't hear him i can't either glenn are you muted i was uh hi john uh glenn dempsey building official do you have a closet above that uh area where the winders are no it's an open stairway

045so when you walk into it the height of the the height of the ceiling in that um in that stairwell it's it consumes the whole stairway there it's not a slanted roof or anything am i describing do you get what i'm saying there it there's the staircase where does it start in the building itself in the house so if if you look at um my very non-technical drawings but it's a has a picture um let's see where am i if you it's it's the one that has uh let's see i'm sorry i'm trying to orient myself um not that one the other one oh wait a minute did i did i actually give you a main floor one should have numbered these um it can you stop the the one that i can see on

046the screen you can see uh where it says 23 by 15 that's the garage it has an arrow pointing towards the stairway so you can see where it falls in the house so to if if we were to extend the stairway we'd lose the access to um the garage from the house and then also would cut that entry that goes from the front all the way back to the bedrooms it would it would eliminate that as well do you see what i'm saying yeah i think so um another question for you in the floor framing above that winder area is there a way to header off and support the floor above to create a higher ceiling height the the joists run parallel to the the main um the main run of the stairway so if

047you i don't no if you how i don't know how you'd support the floor above it because that's the entry floor do you understand what i'm saying which way are the floor joists running with the staircase or against the staircase they run parallel to the staircase they say um top to bottom in the picture we're looking at right correct yes so they they run from where the address is on the front towards the back of the page john do you know what depth the joists are just out of curiosity you mean how you mean the like i off the top of my head i guess they'd be two by tens okay um uh i i mean if you really had to know i could run over there that's okay um this is the original stairs

048with the home we did the only modification we did to the stairway was put carpet on it paint it and then added balusters because the previous one did not have balusters yeah i i think you have a serious problem there because somebody's gonna slip at some point in time and they're not gonna just drop down one step they're gonna drop down a couple and they may you may have a ankle breaking situation here i've seen these before and you know that that's the biggest concern and why we were looking at it um of course why we're here yeah i mean it's a 32 to 40 inch drop potentially depending on whether you hit that last tread or not yes mike i see your hand up yeah i was just uh i wanted to comment and

049mention was this a change of use was that just storage at some point that became habitable space no when we bought the home it was a finished basement um it had you know that 50s knotty pine uh had uh one large opening and then a uh bathroom and like another kind of storage area and so the the use did not change in the sense of as i assume the previous owner used it as a basement where their kids would play etc and it was refinished recently uh yes we we went in and up updated the basement the knotty pine didn't work for us um we wanted to put more wiring in it etc and it just was easier to redo it and then that's that's all you're working on the permits for that currently i

050am yes it's shocking how difficult is the the way we did this is but we're working through it so layout wise if i could um looking at the photo from the top of the stairs down to the um the winding which potentially could be the landing not that one that one so to the right of the hand railing that's garage so no to the right of the hand railing is is the basement to the left is the garage what's what's on the main floor to the right of that railing the main entryway so if if if we were to go in and remove the flooring etc to allow headroom for um to do a landing and then uh elvis steps down then we'd have to have a new front entry door because that's where the

051front yeah i get you glad you had mentioned that you familiar with these winder staircases do you have other um and again i know it's not the city's role necessarily to provide solutions but other suggestions given uh what we know about the layout of this property because it sounds like there's some particular challenges here yeah it's a very tough scenario um have you had a john have you had a contractor look at this to see how he might be able to to reinvent that lower area to give you um some headroom height and still and correct the stairs to where you you have more of a landing than a winder um the contractor that's um working us through the process when i explained that there was an issue with the winders and the steps he

052goes you he told me i have no options this is the way that was made and there's there's no way to to to go in and create a landing and create the head room necessary for a landing to go into the last three steps into the basement at what height where that first winder hits john um what is the height off that winder to the ceiling can you tell me which number you're talking about yeah back to 38. so the basement floor to the ceiling it's eight feet zero and then when you step up on to step number 13 is that the step you're talking about or step number nine or ten well i'm talking about ten so you're looking at um ten is sixty five inches three quarters and that's even 72 inches wouldn't

053be acceptable so understand i've i've tried to come up with i i just can't figure out a solution i do know that this is the van duzen subdivision and there's kind of a repeating pattern to homes in this neighborhood in other words it's the same model duplicated maybe with some slight variations and there is a home in this neighborhood that had an extensive um remodel and and that was in 2012 and they were granted a variance on the same steps um the i think i talked with deborah about that and she could not locate the the city paperwork on that um i talked with the owners of that that property um and um they're the ones who i said look blah blah blah the our steps that don't mean code and they go ours didn't

054either they gave us a variance i tried contacting their builder um via phone and email and the builder never got back with me and um and deborah i thought i'm not exactly sure but search city records and and couldn't um couldn't locate that specific instance that is correct yeah this is really a difficult situation i completely understand the city's concerns in terms of you know if you're coming down the right side of that stair but yeah you almost wonder how this got permitted in the first place and it sounds like there's no evidence of you know this wasn't a new stair put in where someone tore out an old one and i'm presuming the house always had access from the first floor to the basement and and there's another home on crosby crescent as well

055that has same floor plan same winder steps and it has the it still has the 1950s basement where you know the knotty pine uh tile floor etc um i mean that's just how uh van duzen who is the builder squeezed that steps into this floor plan this is uh i understand it is a tough situation it's also a safety a big safety issue um you said your floor joists were two by tens you believe um i i believe i'm i i do live very close this property if you really wanted to know i if you gave me five minutes i could run over and measure them i'm pretty confident they're two by tens actually they might even be the same as mine i don't know why they would choose a different floor joist from house

056to house this i'm going to step away for a second and just go have a peek and then i guess i'll take this opportunity to remind the board that this is also the variance where we received the letter from the renters indicating that they needed to well they were hoping to take possession i guess by july 1st and that's we heard from caitlin i think one of the renters caitlin i think i got the name right sorry if i didn't um and given how tight and difficult the housing market is i do want to you know just make sure that we're keeping that in terms of our time frame right so that there's a decision to be made um you know if if this doesn't move forward favorably that they have as much time as

057they need or if it does that they can rest assured so either way well what would be the outcome of the homeowner taking no action i'm assuming the basement is then unoccupiable that's a good question i don't know i might ask john one more question i i think it was in the pictures you have one handrail on just one side of the stairs or on both sides that's correct it's on one side there is a handrail only on one side that's correct thank you if you need a handrail on the other side we can have our contractor put a handrail on the other side i'm sorry i was just gonna um say can staff answer kristen's question um i think there's always an option of just not making a habitable space but can um can

058inspect the bugs or answer the question this house was previously had unhabitable finished basement it was it was a partially finished as a wreck space with a little bit of basement uh bathroom stuff in it but nothing big and then was more recently completed with a bedroom and a bathroom you recall what year that was brandon that they did the renovation uh it's still under the permit process now oh thank you um uh the the joyce in my home which is is in the same neighborhood they're uh two by two by eights not no that can't be right what's it's nine and a quarter so that would make it a two by ten i think i have a question for staff if we added a second handrail i know that there's a tripping hazard there

059and i do understand the situation but if there was a second handrail added would that influence your decision at all would say no that wouldn't that wouldn't change the decision okay as well i'm also going to add in here that because this is under the permitting process it looks like a permit was just pulled on six three to finish the basement um i'm a little confused as to why these stairs were not included as part of the permitting process when you're trying to convert a space to habitable space it should also include looking at the um the stairways and so is there a reason that that was not included on the permitting process are you speaking to me yes um uh we did the basement re-redid the basement ourselves we were clearly not aware of

060the issue with winders and tread tread depths and and so um since we didn't touch the stairs the the builder who is helping us with the permitting process uh didn't didn't include those in his uh whatever you call it when they submit the paperwork okay so just for my clarification um the building permit was submitted as a building permit to review work that had already been completed correct that's correct we're trying to get this house up to snuff gotcha okay but with a with a two by ten even if you you know took that depth to zero which you can't do you still don't make it correct because when you turn that corner you'd be you know let's say you gained six inches you're still going to be at when you come off tread 10

061let's say that's the landing elevation you're still going to be like six feet and that's even if you're able to carve out quite a bit of the joists so it seems like there's you know just my guess would be there's probably not an option even with reframing or going to steel or something like that in lieu of the floor joists to make it work i thought i saw someone's hand up but i don't see it up right now so if i'm missing it please let me know it was glenn but he put it back down okay thank you that's what i thought i did remove it okay so i've got a question for glenn what if you um for lack of a better term put a newel post at the bottom where those winders uh

062come down to nothing that you had to walk around but there was enough uh width up above the newel post to satisfy the tread width but just the newel post was big enough so that you could not step where the tread goes down to nothing so you had to step around it you ever approved anything like that yeah you probably are incringing on your width quite a bit in order to move it in far enough to give some type of tread there but but better than having those steps that go down to nothing because i i had a staircase and like that in my house in maryland and i was the homeowner so my falling down that portion of the stairs you know that was my own problem but in this case so there's nothing

063there's not like a hub that you could that you only had to you know put your hand on and step around at the very bottom do you understand what i mean yeah i think so imagine like a basketball on top of a 6x6 so um yeah i understand what you're saying it just it's um it's going to infringe in the width quite a bit yeah if um you might have a question for john um again um you just turned in paperwork for that uh the building permit for this remodel yes okay and then um going back to the picture and i'm trying to find it right now on the heights what is the what is the height of the basement itself to the bottom of the joist eight feet you got a full eight feet

064so you got ceiling height requirements when you're in the basement you got your ceiling requirements met yes it's a it's an eight foot it's an eight foot ceiling um actually in some spots it's even higher than eight is that right i i'm not in the house i don't recall exactly but it's it's an eight foot ceiling from the basement floor to the basement ceiling at least for sure at that step area might be slightly lower in the main area of the basement so a question for city staffs since there's a permit pending for modification of this is is this this is additional information is it appropriate that the board is addressing this and it's not being addressed as part of the permitting issue or process gary you're you're right on track i was just about

065to interject um that's one of the reasons why i asked about the permit i'm seeing that looking at the um records and it just got submitted last week so actually um this probably should be moved to um if if a variance would be granted because they are creating space um habitable space it should be a bba situation if a variance is actually granted it should be moved to a different board um and reviewed because the permitting process is going to be that stair way should actually be added to the permit if they're creating habitable space so it does need to be added to the permit and that at that point is it going to get denied or approved to create the habitable space with that existing staircase and that's when you ask for the variance

066thank you alicia i believe that would be my opinion also i was looking at the application it's very limited information and i know when my plan reviewer uh responds there will be quite a bit of questions on it but um the staircase would be important with regards to the building permitting uh for construction so this situation where the city is withdrawing the variance and moving it to the permitting process uh chris i believe that would be the right right course for this um not realizing that we had the application just recently submitted and we can discuss with the owner on fees that were paid and so forth and moving into this this uh hearing here so i'm sure there's some adjustments that we can make to to move this uh properly through the process and

067i believe it would go back it'd probably go to the building board of appeals um because of the access to that habitable space that's being created i actually do have some questions when you're done chatting just for clarification for me so the basement was finished um it was a finished basement prior but was not is not was not considered by the city habitable space um and so i i i'm not sure how that works because it being that it had finished walls etc it seemed pretty finished to us um so then if i was the homeowner living in the property this gets treated somewhat differently than it is as a rental property is that correct so when you go to habitable space and so forth um the concerns would be that the bottom line is

068uh the safety issue at the very bottom and it can be brought up throughout any any of these processes um because that's my biggest concern any occupant of your property that you're coming in and we're becoming aware of you have a serious situation that i wouldn't want anybody to break an ankle or a leg or cause other issues in their health because of that that drop from those stairs and and so glenn since this clearly is your what you're good at i'm getting the feeling that even through all the permitting process unless we can change how that winder is made that stairway is not going to get approved i would like to i i would like to get some pictures on it or get an inspector to take a look at it to get some

069opinions um i'd like to talk with your contractor more about it but i am i am very concerned it's so not only is it you will not be living there you have a renter that'll be living there i'm concerned with what might happen after this is all corrected and that's that's one of the things we're looking at when we review these plans so no problem where i'm going with this is these people are expecting to move in july 1st and so that's why i mean i i really if you were to ask uh deborah or brandon or chris i i've been in contact with them with regarding mechanical electrical plumbing builder the builder was a very difficult person to get a hold of because it is a really busy time for them which i'm sure

070you're aware um and so our dilemma now we push up against when caitlyn and john were to move in if i can't get the variance on the steps then i can't rent to them and and um and part of contacting deborah in april was trying to figure out can we resolve this issue so these people can move in and if they can't we give them some time to find an additional another place to live and from what i'm hearing today is that's incredibly unlikely and so we need to proceed a different way with this with our home because i mean i can sell the house to someone they can know the problem and they can decide what to do but i can't rent it to someone i think that's what you're telling me yeah i

071think with the situation if it were considered storage it might become under a different different envelope you're looking to finish it and call it habitable space um that's something we would have to review further okay and and the risk is so if if these people move in and then you say no it's not habitable space what what's the procedure then a lock gets put on that that door and they can't go down there or i don't i don't i can't i can't visualize how that would work so as as storage space they have you have storage spaces throughout buildings in various locations you have storage and attics you have storage and basements and they're they're entered upon the situation of being aware that you're going in a storage area you're not going to be traveling

072in a regular situation you won't have people visiting those areas on a regular basis friends and so forth so storage areas just are treated a little bit differently and you just have to be cautious where you're going but habitable space going up and down on a regular basis to visit that location um can be an issue and so i guess i guess that's where i'm i'm looking at so um i wouldn't mind uh seeing some more pictures and seeing if there's anything that uh maybe your contractor hasn't uh come across or come into that he might be able to affect or correct the situation okay is there any way to pull that stairway back into the house a little bit enough to to eliminate that winder problem i'm not sure i i myself would love

073to see some more pictures on it and um maybe get some more eyes on it to take a look i understand your concern and wanting to get your applicant or your rental um the people that are going to rent from you get it get them in there but uh yeah i think it needs to be addressed further i i i hear that i just like there are lots of people that need to be treated fairly here and mostly it's the renters because they're the per they're the group that's coming in from the outside clearly we didn't follow the process right and so now we're trying to figure out how to make it up um i just short of i the only way i could figure out um how to make this stairway work would be

074to drag it into the house which would like i said previous would block the the door to the garage which there the garage doesn't have to have a door to it um but then it also like there's a essentially a hallway that kind of moves through the house and i don't know how that changes how that changes uh like flow stuff if that's an issue or not um so uh i i i you know what i'm i'm wasting your time here because you're you're clearly you you need to table this to a different actually it sounds like you're passing this on to the building department and and are going to let them decide how to manage this i think is what you said the building board of appeals is that correct um yes i believe

075this would go into the building board of appeals okay all right um and that's well here i i don't wanna i don't wanna hold you up you did you didn't sign up for this to talk to me all afternoon i appreciate your time um clearly would have liked the variance to be granted like the other home in our neighborhood but i understand that renters are treated different than homeowners um is there a place to look at how i can go to the renters and say look you can't use that as habitable space but you can use the basement as storage space is if we included that in the lease um like made an addendum to our lease does that meet the intent there do you get do you understand what i'm asking i think part

076of the issue is going to be that the basement's already been completed the work is already completely done so um i think that might be part of the problem well there's is there a definition of what storage space is supposed to be be like i mean it can be a really nice storage space the catch is once they move into the house i don't have any control over it it's their home and and so how they were to use it unless i go in and check up on them i wouldn't know how they're using it so um i i like i said i i am i don't want to take any more of your time uh thank you so much um and i guess either glenn or brandon and i'll be hearing from you while

077we're working our and deborah working our way through this process so john i just might ask why i have you here um i can get back with you tomorrow and discuss this further i wouldn't mind uh seeing what you have there but we can pick this up again tomorrow if you're available so um do you have my phone number i wouldn't mind talking with you i mean it would be nice to resolve this i my concern is this poor couple it's like they move in in july a week later they leave for uh long island and are getting married they were supposed to get married last summer of course that didn't happen and so you know just i can't imagine laying more stuff onto this this couple so um anyway glenn um i think you

078must have my phone number and something that would be that would be great if you did call um i i is your area code of 517 so when i see it i don't think it's spam um i believe i have probably an email for you too i can send you an email and set up a time that would be great thank you i do believe we have john reiser you had wanted to have an opportunity to say something and there is also another hand raised yeah so um remember there's an agenda and on this agenda is an item for 1230 van dusen and it's the board's call as to whether or not uh you know this uh they're going to put a motion before the board in other words there's a proposed motion the board

079could grant this appeal because they have that authority if they find that it presents uh practical difficulties or undue hardship and that the variance does not violate uh the intention of the section 8504 and it doesn't jeopardize public health or safety i'm not saying whether it does or it doesn't but whether or not this is granted right now it's up to the board so don't withdraw your if you want to withdraw it and talk later you have that right but you're also before the board on an appeal that you have a right to have heard um i i'm you know i know there's a lot of give and take on these boards but we're operating under parliamentary procedure um with an agenda and you're an agenda item so um this is kristin i guess i

080have a question on that so if the city is choosing to withdraw this because it's supposed to it should be i guess as part of the permitting process and go to the building board of appeals would they also have that right to withdraw it well he it's my understanding that the applicant has put forward uh or is it just the applicant pardon right right the applicant because it's the applicant that's appealing that's right so it's it's his call he could say glenn it was nice talking to you thanks i still want you to vote yes or no on it and then he could take it to court or he could or he could withdraw or you could table it to another date i'm just saying there's a lot of give and take but there's also

081a formal proceeding that let's not forget about whether that's a motion to adjourn a motion to table a motion to the board still has to address the agenda item yeah that's right don't forget it's it's still uh before you in in some form right john but a but a question present let's say we you know for argument's sake we approve it i'm assuming this still goes back uh through the building process and will be reevaluated again i'm assuming our approval does not supersede anything they they would or wouldn't decide well with with respect to a few grant of variance under 8 504 for um under the 9 inch tread i think it's not the 9 inches so much or maybe it is but it's the it's the corner for lack of a better phrase right

082so this this board right this board would have the ability to uh trump you know the process of reviewing the permit well that that is your statutory authority yes you or you don't do it so you know you get to issue variances to the code yes whether you should or shouldn't that's within your province you're purging i understand uh thank you john the other john i see you have your hand out sorry so i i guess um john r thank you very much for that well i guess i would like you to take the time to vote on it because if you were to vote yes then we still have things that we need to take care of on this house but the one thing that we can't change is the stairs at least without

083significantly reworking the home and kristen if you could just um uh the i think it was the tenant that had their hand up so if you could just uh acknowledge the tenant oh sorry i didn't i don't have them on my screen was it caitlyn did you have something yeah caitlyn's got a question in the q a got it so just reading the question it says can i ask what happens for us in the meantime our current lease is up in july i heard some conversation but caitlyn i i didn't hear like kind of a strong answer i think it sounds like it's going to well there's two processes here right we have the appeal before us we also have the permits for the basement um that are also being reviewed i didn't hear uh

084an answer maybe i'm sorry maybe i'm just not recalling we had a conversation about whether or not the basement is currently considered habitable space and whether the permitting process would change that um again i believe that might be through the building board of appeals so that's maybe less of the scope of this board typically but the house isn't currently rented right correct okay now i'll also say that if you look on page two practical difficulties are undue hardship the variance does not violate the intent and i'm sure the attempt is like safe stairways up and down uh variance does not jeopardize public health and safety again that's your call maybe you think it does maybe you think it don't doesn't but there are also stipulations that you can attach to your approval if you want

085to prove it i'm truly not trying to slay your vote i'm just saying you have the prerogative to do what you will uh if you make certain findings and you can attach certain stipulations to those findings right and and i appreciate that i mean i think you know it would be helpful to have something in front from the construction authority or you know the contractor saying that there's not an ability to um alter the stairway i mean i think you know you've provided that john owner john that lawyer john um so it's verbally based on conversations um it sounds like there's you've done a great job on the head room and i think that answered a lot of the questions um you know practically speaking i think that you know it it sounds like that

086but it's difficult to determine with certainty and i would imagine uh given that there's these two processes going on that makes the decision of this board particularly difficult because i think they both hinge off of each other but i also fully appreciate the timeline that you're on and you're for your tenants can city staff tell what is the minimum required width of that stairway 32 inches okay 10 inches in the middle section though right because there's an no 32 that was the answer kristen so the width of the stick or the width of the stairway sorry right right i was doing trend depth on the winder and then i guess also from the city um is there any historical um perspective of winder staircases and variances that you were able to determine uh when you

087were doing research on this particular house there's a question for the staff if there's a need um i don't i don't know of any um i didn't i mean that would require going into and looking at other properties and what was um was applied for and approved there and i don't know if there's a history of doing that or if we look at the properties on an individual basis and make a determination for that particular property which is my understanding right but we're also trying to look at past practice and what precedents have been set so i wouldn't have any information about other winder staircases that have had um variances approved thank you and hate when i saw your question in the chat that you wanted to ask another question go ahead this is actually

088john her husband that was i don't know while at work um so i'm just curious has been trying to follow along but i guess what's kind of the interim timeline i think we said we have a our lease is up beginning of july in our current housing in ann arbor we had signed this lease in january to move in july um you know it puts us in a slightly precarious position um at the same time it's a little frustrating with uh our current apartment was cited for being against code almost 16 months ago by the city and neither the city nor the landlord has followed up about that so it feels very frustrating to hear kind of this given our current predicament our current unit not being co-compliant so um yeah just any help about

089kind of what we should do because um honestly being told you're not sure about housing three weeks from now it feels like a bigger public health safety than the stairs at this point i'm going to offer up some just some last thoughts for is from the um perspective of our our service area um what would be fair and equitable right now is that because if the rest of the house is fine there are no other violations that need to be corrected we would say because you're going through the permitting process for the basement we would ask that you just not use that as habitable space until it has been approved um that would probably be the best way to do it if you wanted to go that route and that way the attendance in the

090morning you can still you can still get a cfc with stipulations that the basement not be turned into habitable space until it goes through the permitting process um uh but as john reiser mentioned the board right here just needs to make um some kind of decision as to whether they're going to approve a variance or they're not or deny a variance and actually um any other variances that would be requested would be if you are denied the permit through the building building services process so if you go through review and it is denied that you cannot um get approved then that asking a variance for that through the building process would go to the building board of appeals so at this juncture uh this board needs to make a decision as to whether they're gonna

091approve your request deny it table it um whatever they want to do and then uh we would from the real housing standpoint like i said we will work with you um to say you can't use the basement as habitable space at this point and then we would move forward from there thanks lisa that would be my suggestion that's helpful context can you maybe inform the board um of the implications it so if we approve a variance how does that play into the permitting process if we deny a variance how does that play into the permitting process and if we table it does that impact like the cfc so if you deny this variance and say that you're not going to do that like i said the options would be just that the basement cannot be

092habitable space they can look at another option but it can't be habitable space um storage or whatever as glenn alluded to earlier if you approve this variance um that i'm a little gray on as to what would happen from there because uh there this is still going through the permitting process and so that i'm a little gray about because it if it gets denied through the permitting process um i i'm not sure that your approval for the variants would hold up if it's if it's in a building process it is in the permitting process they should but yeah years in the permitting process they are they have submitted a permit and it just got submitted and it was submitted after the appeals was submitted so they just appeared they just applied for a permit as

093of june 3rd okay but yeah sorry just to keep asking the same question i appreciate that lisa but yeah i i thought i heard from john that if we approve this then that's uh for the building authority that's off the table this is approved and that's the end of consideration you know from my perspective there's no point in us approving something that's going to be looked at and re-evaluated again if if there's you know if we approve it and then it that's taken off consideration in the permitting process then then i could see the reason to consider approval but if it's approved not that it's going to be but if it's approved then he might withdraw his request for permits because he won't need them anymore if he if they're approved with any stipulations you

094know such as shall not use the basement as a habitable space or whatever you folks are talking about but uh my understanding that people can always withdraw requests for building permits and i would defer to glenn on that but it isn't the permit for a change in use our finished basement is what the permit is stating it is for finished basement i don't have the the drawings and the plans in front of me but it is for finished basement and it includes when you're turning it into habitable space if that includes review of the stairs i am not sure that the housing ordinance would trump the building building code right that's uh that's yeah seems like that would be my question as well and that that's what i was alluding to that if this is

095already in a building process under building code housing ordinance does not trump the building code is it okay to table this for more information if it becomes an issue with the building department is that too many is that kicking the can too far down the road i'm not sure what tabling would do if it goes through the building process and it's going to review okay deny through the building process and it goes to bba i'm not sure what tabling it from the hba standpoint would do okay i get it i think i think to to make long story short i think this was presented to the wrong board and it should have been through the building board of appeals and because the ability permit that submitted after the appeal it really is for the applicant

096to withdraw his appeal to this board and appeal to the appropriate board it's my suspicion that's what i think at this point is it's not there's nothing for the housing board of appeals to grant a variance for and if it were to be decided or tabled depending on the decision the cfc could proceed if the renters just didn't use the basement as habitable space so that's still an option as well okay so i think that answers your question caitlyn man after not having a lot of appeals we've had a few uh really complicated ones here all right oh deborah did you have something no i was just going to agree with you yeah i'm not trying to kick the can either i just normally this this board has seen variances where there's been an inspection

097in an existing property no intent to modify the space and and we can look at at precedence there potentially and make a decision in this case you know there's also a permit being requested so you know the the building board of approvals may have more perspective on precedent when something like that's going to happen so i it's difficult i mean yeah i mean i i agree jerry i i feel like you know if we didn't have kind of this time pressure i would certainly my my inclination work like setting aside that the timing would be because there's these two processes to have the building department go through their permitting process separate from the rental piece because i think that's you know i don't want one decision to influence one way or another the other decision

098um it seems like that's just the appropriate thing to kind of look through it uh one at a time and if you're and and it's my understanding that if you were to do a basement the stairs are automatically included as the access point regardless of whether or not there were modifications to that staircase um so i think maybe that's why it wasn't originally slotted into the permitting process there any other items for discussion while we're on this topic so for for john are our only options to approve or deny or is another option to you know lots of options the applicant could withdraw based on conversations with leonard or you the applicant could uh you know ask that his uh his application be considered and it's on your agenda for so and you could prove

099it outright you could approve it with stipulations you could deny it um if you do deny it you're gonna state you know what your rationale for is and if you look on pages two and three you have before you in your packet all the information that you need to make your decision or to table it to that first your meeting in july and then it never gets brought back if it's the wrong forum that's something that mr stright mr dempsey can work on the interim okay thank you all right thanks jerry were there any other questions comments concerns before we make a motion because i heard homeowner john that you did want us to move forward with a decision or discussion today i was you're here and i've i've presented everything i know it's would

100seem that why wouldn't you and then it would just give us a starting point for what to do next i guess i'm asking i'll feel comfortable with the most i guess i should make a motion to maybe approve the variance with the basement being used as storage space only at this time unless the building department allows for the stairs to be used to access livable space [Music] how'd i do great and i would ask deb williams are you the uh uh keeper of the records i am and do you need that red back or do you need to uh if she could read that back for me that would be awesome okay so do i need to list the variance in in the in my motion yes you'll need to come up with a rationale

101one two or three or some version of those three and then if there are any stipulations to which you are granting your appeal assuming it passes uh you'll need to have those again on page two the stipulations attended to or pertinent to [Music] okay i'll share my screen so you can i'm pulling i have i'm double screening today so i'm trying to do this myself but um oh my gosh i forgot we're way down at the bottom okay so i am this is where i always run into the trip it up part um [Music] oh sorry i went back too far i apologize i know everybody's trying to get out of here let's see how's the board up here okay i propose to approve housing board of appeals request number hba21 at 1230 van duzen

102to approve the variance on the stipulation that the basement is used for storage only period and if the approval or sorry with the approval of the staircase to access habitable space be given to the building board of appeals due to financial hardship because he already has a lease in place okay um did i forget something john i'm sorry i would look at page two and maybe you are that talks about the practical difficulties or undue hardship the variance does not violate the intent of the section the variance is that i would really look at that because that comes right out of your code in the arc ann arbor code 8515. uh okay due to practical difficulties uh oh sorry due to un oh i guess i'm i'm i'm wondering if i'm speaking out of turn

103i guess is the right way to say that because i know what housing code oh the variance doesn't jeopardize public health or safety if it is used for storage only about that so what you're what you're doing is it sounds like you haven't read verbatim from the proposed motion but you're kind of crafting one yourself is that correct well i was trying to appeal granted based on with the stipulation that it's used as um storage space only i thought that was something we had discussed could be it is but okay we're gonna need two things one the the basis and the reason and i'm trying to be so circumspect here or you know right nitpicky but i'm just looking at eight five one five and it talks about uh each decision under parent 5e about

104appeal and various procedure and it talks about each decision of the board shall be based on written findings of fact for variances the findings must include the grounds for finding practical difficulties or unnecessary hardship the variance does not violate the intent of this chapter the variance does not jeopardize public health and safety so those are the findings that you must have and they're going to be in writing because deborah williams going to put is going to put those in writings so when the staff comes up with these suggested motions pro or con they're getting right from the ordinance and the reason i have to do that is to build a record in case a circuit court appeal is done and we've followed you know we've given everybody due process we followed what our ordnance says

105in that so that's why i'm being knit pickier than i should in polite company but i'm trying to create this record and preserve this record i guess if i could ask the other members to help me i guess i'm missing what i'm i guess you just you just need you just need the top part which is the one two and three right you know you believe it and the board votes for it and you also need the stipulation it sounds like you got the stipulation but don't forget about one two and three so they have to meet one two and three they don't have to mean all of them angie it's it's or so it's okay so in other words start all over say number three then put the stipulation how about that in order

106okay uh i would angie yeah you may you know i think maybe a way to do it would be to stipulate one practical difficulties and undue hardship and then your stipulations would cover you know the the premise for granting this oh okay all right so i move to grant the appeal in hba21-003 of the appeals of the building officials decision at the rental property at 1230 van duzen to approve the variance due to practical difficulties or undue hardship with the stipulation that the basement be used as storage only and not habitable space period with the staircase issue to be addressed by the building board of appeals thank you for whoever was typing that would be me deborah you're my hero all right we have a motion um i see we have a couple of hands

107up uh and normally this is time for board discussion but i'm gonna entertain uh john and glenn uh and then i i guess maybe well let's go ahead and have them talk and then i've got some thoughts to share as well you have a second uh i don't do we need a second while we're doing discussions you need a second to discuss it because if it doesn't get a second it dies for a lack of a second thank you thank you i couldn't remember how that worked um all right do i have a second i'll second it lisa stelter all right lisa has a second now we're opening for discussion all right and i think glenn i still see your hand up so go ahead so i just might add that depending on the discussions

108with mr striden and the building department and further investigation of the basement it may be approved depending on what takes place and he may not need to go to the bba just a suggestion on your motion i guess so that's my thoughts if we work it out of course okay well john um uh what glenn said that was my thing what if we work through this process and if we come up with a solution that's acceptable to the building department then we don't need to go to the board of appeal the building board of appeals do you understand i'm i think i think that's what glenn's so i think we'll probably modify the language we'll keep talking and then yeah it sounds like i went one step further than i needed to go okay so

109to be addressed building department instead of building board of appeals would be my suggestion to alter before i make another motion or is it even necessary to have that sentence at all well you might want to protect yourself you could say building board of appeals or building official and whichever one who grants that relief could grant it that way they could get it from glenn or they could seek it from the building board of appeals that might be a way to protect um your vote about doing this for not habitable space because the building official would oversee anything through the permitting process under their authority and i don't want to belabor this but honestly it probably should just refer to based on the uh building review process and the issuance and the issue is an

110approval of a building permit that way it can go either way if it does not need approval it can go if the applicant wants to apply for another variant it would be through a different board but it it's all just stipulations of what happens in the building permit process that's it okay so through the search with the staircase issue to be addressed through the building process period well let me say this you guys are the board it's up to you to put forward your emotions you can't be swayed you can take advice from us by me by alicia by glenn by brandon by mike it's up to you to come up with the language and create the record if angie my apologies maybe ms rasmussen wants to do whoever whoever made the motion right now

111there's a motion on the floor that's been seconded that you'll need to vote on unless you amend it to something different and the movement amends it and whoever second it accepts it as a friendly amendment then you can vote on what someone on this board amends it to okay i move to amend my original motion can i say that well angie but before you do sorry i know everybody wants to get off is there is there a building permit is this numbered is there something we can definitively refer to so you know it will be clear which building you know permit we're talking about absolutely it is building permit b g and that is uh 21 dash just a second here 11 21 11 21 correct okay so i'm going to start over i'm going

112to move to change my stipulation to include the building permit number blbg 21-1121 do i say i second it with a friendly amendment i think though okay oh you let me say it again i second it with a friendly amendment as a friendly amendment i i have a question so it says the basement is to be used as storage only in non-habitable space is that a binding um appeal again if the building permit process approves it as habitable space does this somehow influence that or you know with that you know what i mean i just i want to make sure that everything is is consistent that's kind of the challenge with going through this parallel process because it is in the permitting process at this point it can only be used as non-inhabitable space because

113it's not been approved as habitable space because it is in the permitting process so yes it is somewhat binding that because it's it's a permit it cannot currently be used as habitable space but the home can be approved for renting as long as that area is not used as habitable space because it is currently in the permitting process so in which case should we just strike that whole part or does it um does the amendment read uh you know the basement uh the question in the basement habitable space should be decided through the building permit process and i think john was suggesting we do include some type of language like that an acknowledgement that this is going through a process so this doesn't necessarily set a precedent for occupied minutes we'll also mention it sorry

114i'm getting a little punchy this long in the meeting i'm going to end up circling back and watching the video on this we did this with a different board last week when we had to circle it back and uh it's a different board but one of the things we're going to want is for the um stipulation whatever it is to be read back so that these people and mr know exactly who we're dealing with john is a hundred percent whether it's something like the basement shall be used for a storage unit only unless otherwise determined by the building official or building department or building board of officials or whatever your stipulations what what whatever it is that you folks come up with deborah's going to read it back and you all are going to know

115what it is so they don't have to spend hours listening to tape again like i did last week to find out what exactly people said and when we're going to know what we're voting on in a couple minutes hang in there alicia all right let's have the friendly amendment i hate it when meetings do this okay so do we need to vote and let that motion die to put forward a new motion is that kind of the cleanest way to do this both the movement and the second you know the who whoever segmented it could both withdraw and there could be a fresh motion made if somebody wants to do that fair enough angie and lisa would you like to take another stab or would you like a fresh motion and withdraw this current one

116angie i'm going to let you speak first angie i want to make sure that i i would like to withdraw the motion and take a fresh stab at this but i put it together or say it out loud i want to make sure i'm understanding what other board members are asking me to say so we are granting variants for the stairway right for use of stairs to basement as storage only am i saying this correctly or am i adding too much adding too much okay the best thing to do is always read what the staff has in front of you unless you have a good reason for deviating from the language oh no i'm sorry i was just trying to get the language together before i put the proposed motion in in place so i'm

117trying to get the ver i'm trying to get the stipulation variance language in here if that's helpful can i ask a question before you go on i would love that isn't the status quo allowing them to use the basement for storage already correct it's my understanding that right now the basement is not considered habitable space right so if uh he were to withdraw his um variance appeal he could use the tenants could use the basement for storage he could go through the building process come up with some better solution for these stairs and then if he needed a variance later from us he could get it at that point he could save his 500 for now use it again later when he needs it that makes more sense to me too tim i agree i'm

118withdrawing my original granting of the motion it's my opinion that's what i would want to do not sure that that's correct because if we grant the variance then he's done well but the ultimate goal is to use it as habitable space sometime in the future not now i mean unless we were to grant an unrestricted right i think that's what we're trying to determine is how if there's a stipulation in what it is well that's i guess i'm confused i thought so if if if we do nothing or if john withdraws his um request for the variance he can rent to the couple he just can't they can't use the basement as habitable space with or without oh is that correct staff i'm asking i'm sorry that right lisa can you ask that question again

119we do nothing let's say we don't grant anything can john still rent to the tenants with the understanding that the basement can be used for storage only without us doing anything that is correct and that is that they're also gonna to answer the question that tenant had in the chat if the building permit is approved as submitted and is granted approval and inspection and final the basement can be deemed habitable space but right now as it stands it was cited as a violation it went through a permitting process because it was work done without permits so it's going through a permitting process and then so at this point the rest of the house is good it just that the basement is in question of how it can be used it cannot be used currently as

120habitable space that's where we're at right now so the tenants can move in regardless well it can i ask do the tenants want to rent it if they can't use the basement yes we do yes you do okay folks don't forget on page one this is a fire escape a fire exit issue as well as habitable basement look at 8 404 4b2 in your code it's a required exit so there's also it's a little bit more than that you know a habitable basement i don't know if glenn you want to weigh in on that but i guess this is kristen so i don't feel comfortable making a decision because right now we're looking at a change of use of habitable and non-habitable space and i think there glenn has already um provided information to the

121board that there's kind of it's looked at a bit differently in terms of how often you're going up and down the stairs right like storage versus habitable space and i guess i'd like a final decision by the building department on whether this is habitable space or not prior to us making a final decision on the stairway it sounds like practically speaking um us tabling this does not impact the renters um and while i fully can appreciate the challenges of trying to find rental housing and the time constraints that they're they've already expressed and that they're under um you know once you provide a variance that's it there's there's not like that's for the lifetime of that house um and likely beyond the renter or you know mr stride's ownership of that home so i do

122want to make sure that we're giving that proper due diligence uh while i i at this point agree about the practical difficulties or undue hardship i do think that we may want to look at stipulations differently uh if it's habitable or not habitable space as we move forward that's my two cents and john i see your hand up so you've been very patient what else do you have to say first of all i am so sorry that this is going like this i don't even know how you all can keep track now because i'm certainly my head is spinning so here's i just and i i think i got have this right according to um miss turner tolbert that um we can rent the upstairs of the we can rent the entire home to caitlin

123and john they can only use the basement as storage space and i don't need to do anything with the appeal at with this appeal at this time and the stair issue will get picked up by the building department and with the building department we either figure out a way to make the stairs compliant or that basement just stays storage space or an uninhabitable space is that accurate that's correct okay so as long as i can still rent to the renters if john and caitlin still would like to rent they use the basement as uninhabitable space i i i will withdraw this i'm sorry i i it's like this is a process all new to me and um clearly some of this is new to you all too um and then we'll we'll figure it out

124through the through the building department that is correct and we do apologize as well i think i think what muddied the waters is the permit being submitted after the appeal was submitted i i will tell you i the builder that is because this is a rental property i can't as an owner do a permit which you're clearly aware of and so trying to find a builder that would take on this task was not very easy and there are some other circumstances with him personally health-wise that drag drug this out and so um that's how when i talked to this man in march we're wrapping it up well not wrapping it up submitting it in june um so as long as the house can be rented then i'm i'm good with that and uh and i

125can uh talk with caitlin and john to figure out um the wordage for or just to make sure it's clear to them that that's uninhabitable space um uh and then and then the building department does what they need to do to make this house compliant i i'm i'm fine with that i'll if that is accurate i will withdraw my request you are accurate that's correct all right and glenn i think you still were going to call me or get a hold of me tomorrow i would be more than happy to talk with you further tomorrow and we'll figure try to figure something out to get you that would be great because we want this house to be compliant yes and that's our concerns it's a safety issue and um appreciate your comments we'll see what

126we can do and come up with some suggestions if there are some that you can make it work somehow so i will get in contact with you tomorrow okay um uh thank you very much um so i think i've withdrawn my appeal and i can still rent this house and the building department is to function through to help figure out how to make it compliant for habitable space if that's it i am totally good and thank you so much for your time thank you for going through this process with us oh yeah i hope i never have to see you in this no offense taken yes i understand completely yep uh thank you very much have a good day thank you john thank you deborah thank you for all your help are still on our

127agenda item g2 has been withdrawn so the board does not need to make a motion for that which leaves my last and most favorite item which is adjourned i moved to adjourn the meeting i'm going to buy the second that was the quickest thing thank you very much [Music] thank you everyone you