001i'd like to call to order the january 21st 2021 regular meeting of the building board of appeals call to order um ever can we have a roll call catherine cousins here uh hugh flack here robert hart here paul darling here jeff perkins david armstrong and bruce carson who is going is going to be absent we do have enough for quorum thank you well first item on the agenda is the approval of the agenda do we have a motion for that move to approve the agenda you get a second from jeff looks like got it those in favor aye all right agenda's approved uh the first item on the agenda is the approval of the minutes from the november 19 2020 meeting was there any comments on those uh minutes i think i had seen some
002electronically that we did some reviews those been picked up and uh we're good to go um yeah i believe so i'll check that for sure can we have a motion to improve the minutes move to approve the minutes a second oh second okay those in favor aye aye the minutes from the november 19th meeting are approved uh so before we get before we begin the first appeal here i'd like to explain the process to the applicant how it works is we first have a staff report that the building department will give and then we'll have give the applicant a opportunity to present their appeal and then the staff will have a chance to respond any comments from the applicant's presentation uh then we'll open up for the board members to ask the question some questions
003to the applicant and discuss it among among themselves and then the board will make a motion and then we'll uh vote on the motion um and we need a majority to pass the vote for the motion to pass so in this case we have uh five board members presence we need to have three um positive votes for to pass and there is uh if uh the applicant wishes to appeal the um motion of the the vote of the board they can do that so to the state and the certain time limits um for that that you can follow up with uh let dempsey about if we're in that you wish to appeal that any questions about that okay with that uh we can begin uh with a staff report from the billing department um so
004the the background on the property 830 henry it's a mixed-use building containing r2 a3b and s2 occupancy classifications um 830 it has been approved for some occupancy only unit 11 has a non-compliant stairway at final inspection unit 11 the inspector cited the stairway measures 35 inches which does not meet the minimum requirements of section 10 11.2 exception one which requires a stairway be not less than 36 inches uh the applicant's requesting relief from this code requirement um staff recommends the application be denied doesn't meet the standards for approval the code has not been misinterpreted the provisions of the code do apply and the reduction in the stairway width is less safe than um than what is required by the michigan building code while the applicant states the unit was designed as a townhouse this isn't
005possible in a multi-use building the 2015 michigan residential code is a standalone code and it only pertains to single-family homes duplexes and townhouses it offers no provisions for mixed-use structures uh the introduction of the 2015 michigan residential code states this comprehensive standalone residential code establishes minimum regulations for one and two family dwellings and townhouses using prescriptive provisions townhouse is defined as a single-family dwelling unit that's constructed in a group of three or more attached units each extending from foundation to roof and then has a yard or public way on at least two sides 830 henry does not meet this definition therefore is not a townhouse the mixed-use nature of the building includes r2 a3b and s2 this has increased safety concerns from what would be considered in the 2015 michigan residential code which is why
006it's regulated by the building code and not the residential code because the because 830 is under the purview of the 2015 michigan residential code it must comply with the minimum code requirements of that building code the intent of the code is to establish minimum requirements to provide a reasonable level of safety public health and general welfare the building code clearly states that the minimum width of a stairway is 44 inches um that can be reduced to 36 inches if an occupancy load um of less than of less than 50 applies with these things considered the residential code is not intended for use in commercial buildings it's a standalone code that is this that is not to become the standard when requirements of the building code are not being met um because it's a because so
0072015 michigan building code is a minimum standard and the code governing this project it doesn't meet the standards for approval the code has been the code has not been misinterpreted the provisions of the 2015 michigan building code do apply and the reduced stairway width is neither equal to or better than the code requirements all right thank you um so the next up is for the applicant to make the presentation and i would like to remind them that the board can't waive the code we have three vehicles two random variants the first one being that the true intent of the code or the rules governing the construction have been interpreted haven't been interpreted correctly um provisions of the code don't apply or you're performing a equal or better form of construction so when you make your
008uh presentation indicate which one of those three methods you're um following thank you thank you um this is rob burrows with ox studio representing the uh the my client the building owner um heidi poster who's here uh available as well um thank you for your time um i do want to clarify the the building was permitted um and my statements provided were creating a position um in reflection of the michigan building code not the mrc um i recognize mr dempsey's clarification of the definition of town home for townhouse um and and i'm not challenging that we have a very unique circumstance in regards to this this is an 11 unit development um 10 of which have been provided temp or tco uh to date they are functionally we'll call them kissing sisters they're identical units
009that stack in a three-floor walk-up variation a canon design palette which probably my better way of putting it to a townhouse in terms of their layout and displacement um unit 11 is slightly different it is still likewise a similar concept with a um interconnected levels um but it again with its own unique access point to the exterior um our unique situation and i'll drill down to the standard for approval as i kind of summarize some of these points without taking too much time um we have provided documentation i should point out um both as built drawing or excuse me drawings design drawings or permit drawings and of course the narrative in support of that as well um i wanted to also confirm that there was a a a supplementary document that was uh solicited and
010provided earlier today i just want to make sure the commissioners had the opportunity to see that i can use that as a talking point in fact that would be an excellent initial talking point if we could um this is a quick summary of of the installed stairs in question um this is unit 11. the main entry level is is from the other documents the what's called the first level um that's uh that's a a staired access single single egress unit um the meaning that the main or first level is our as our primary address point out of the building um you know per those thank you deborah appears you're trying to you're attempting you're coming too close to sharing that is that the right yeah i'm sorry it would be the other one i'm sorry
011i thought you was attached uh yes it would be this one um if you wouldn't mind just enlarging that um so we could see it a little more holistically um there's two stairs that are in question we should be reducing the size uh enlarging the sheets so we can see the whole document that would be grand thank you um the without getting into the rest of the floors the uh without getting the rest of the diagrams we can talk off of this for the most part because it's relatively straightforward there's a stair on the lower half of the drawing going down to the lower level which is the basement level or garage level of the development um it is where the the sleeping areas the bedrooms of the of this unit this particular unit are
012located there's three bedrooms and a small common area associated with this um the primary egress path is through the stair to the main level the upper stair goes to a rooftop terrace um regrettably both were constructed with incredibly tight construction tolerances and that's where i want to spend a little bit of time reviewing and discussing them the basically this unit is separated from the garage level and upper stories by a upper joining units i should point out by a three-hour separation assembly in regards to the vertical separation between it and the garage it's a three-hour cast in place wall um in regards to the horizontal separation it's a three-hour precast and composite uh cast and play system that uh in in effect creates a fully sandwiched sandwich type system uh that's a 10 inch concrete
013plank which is the primary structural floor system it's it is basically uh the stair basically runs between those planks and then what we call the topping force which is two layers of cast in place concrete which sandwich an insulation level between them that's thread spread throughout the entire floor plate system itself there's also a curve at either end both the frame the opening itself as well as the support uh provide bearing components for what you see on the right hand of the image which is a two-hour vertical separation assembly which is a consistent separation design that separates all of the individual units including unit 11 in this case from unit 10 um and then on the west side of it which is just conventional lo it's a conventional load bearing but it's not a rated
014wall assembly so i do want to point out that this building is separated in no less than two hours two hour separation from all the adjoining properties uh or adjoining units themselves as well as the garage the garage is clearly three hour separation um to support that opening on the east side there is a uh and the the threat and the weight of the the double wall construction which is our our two hour separation wall up above there's a w8 by 31 beam running north to south and the columns to support that um functionally below that level these walls are are encased uh are are non-structural for the most uh shooting they are non-structural um the walls are basically um unrated framing with uh inch chips and board surround the upper level uh is a
015load-bearing wall on the west side that is supporting the terrace up above um this gives drills down to the real meat of the of the issue at hand uh the planks are a precast system um i don't know the total account it had to be in the hundreds in terms of what was ultimately installed on this on this plinth or this platform that separates the the garage or lower level from the beginning of the residential units up above um this was designed with an opening um with a three foot finish tolerance when the planks are laid out there was minimal tolerance um after installation and the we have a condition now ultimately that has rendered this one-inch deficient in terms of the minimum 36-inch width for both the lower level stair and the upper level
016stair we acknowledge the the code concerns and the findings there's no challenge to that effect um what i do want to point out is some of the conditions that render this uh outcome ultimately the eastern side is is what we term incredibly static meaning it cannot move based upon the both the plank condition the the curb condition and the thicknesses of the walls for the fire supper the vertical fire separation between those during construction it was noted that the tolerances were exceedingly tight the contractor confirmed with me just earlier today again that he was in touch with kirkstra who is the precast manufacturer uh he was given direction that he could remove upwards of one and a half inches of that um the uh be the right side of that plank that you see depicted
017here you'll see there's rebar running in the lower lower quadrant of that section he removed one and a half inches that that initial rebar is one and 15 six inches from the from the original and outside terminus of that of that um of the precast blank itself so that renders it would give me a less than less than a half inch tolerance um which was acceptable for them any further would have uh we would be cutting into basically or or dangerously um inhibiting the structural capacity of that of that plank we'd have to remove the rebar itself so ultimately that is what is bringing us to you today um the condition was limited through the the the repetitive nature of how these planks were laid was minimum was maximized by the repetitive nature the contractor
018did attempt to self-correct during the construction phase um the regrettably to a point where he could take it per cursor's direction without endangering the structural stability or structural uh conditions of the the plank itself um the only area that could be touched was that western side or the left side as you're viewing it right now um there we it obviously which is the term autopsy unit afterwards to try to assist and deliberate your deliberations in regards to the um the outcome and seeing if there's any uh opportunity for discussion on this topic and again this is not in reference to the michigan residential code but rather the nbc um we did it we did take the exception um uh exception one of i don't have the number from uh 10 10 11.2 um we took
019exception uh one allowed underneath that we had less than a 50 occupant load um in fact our occupant load based upon a maximum occupancy by zoning which is six occupants um building code will allow eight by square footage measurements but we're allowed a maximum of six by zoning for a dwelling unit um we we would have um we would have the extreme low end of the scale if you will if you're calibrating them on the scale of 50 occupants to one um so obviously the other elements related to the stairs is as you as i took a deep dive into the uh the coding commentary is the relationship of two-way travel and the requirements for those widths to accommodate two-way travel we have a very unique situation in this case where our primary means of
020egress is on is basically travel upwards on the stair to the main level for regressing out of this um if there were an emergency situation on that lower level the basement level if you will where the bedrooms are located as i mentioned earlier that in effect has a each of those units as well as that common area on the lower level have a um egress windows out of each one of them so there's three egress windows one for each of the bedrooms and a fourth for that common area so as a collective hole while i understand egress windows and wells are part of a means of be addressed and not a singular means of regression to themselves there is there is an opportunity for that um alternate alternate means of emergency escape through those windows
021in the case of a fire situation conversely the stairs coming down from the terrace the terrace i should point out as well is for in particular uh the uh the tenant use the uh residential use it's not a common terrace that terrace was likewise has that 35 inch width challenge that is likewise the same the opposite direction of travel is coming down as opposed to up but basically we have a confluence of our primary means of egress to the main level where we have already a dedicated single means of redress out of the space so i can't imagine an emergency situation particularly from the lower level that there could be a set of emergency service professionals that there would be a conflict of two-way traffic on the stair um i think that is the primary
022arguments that we're attempting to make and i do believe that it is a speaking candidate as a professional it is very unique for me to come up with a standard of approval the one i presented or petitioned as part of this application was the provisions of the code do not apply i was rejected but i do believe that there is a tolerance um inherently in the code based upon the the commentary that's been provided for an understanding if not a true variance aspect that will allow this accommodation to take place and that the safe uh egressing of people from the both the terrorist level and the lower level can be accommodated without any deficiencies by the relatively minimal loss of the the one inch clear dimension on that stair the only element of the residential
023code that i was pointing out was a unique adaptation in the residential code and it's only cons it's only um brought up for the sensibility that there is a an interpretation where we could clinically eliminate again in the residential code itself um the or we can reduce the minimum dimension beneath the hand rails down to almost 31 to 31 inches assuming a minimum 36 inch stair the the residential code doesn't allow to go less itself than 36 for the finished dimension but the addition of the hand rails allows a minimum reduction excuse me i think it's four and a half inches for each handrail so we could ultimately have nine inch reduction below the handrail itself that was my only point of reference in bringing up the residential gold at all i apologize for any
024confusion that that might have brought with that i i'm happy to provide any additional input or response to your questions as to the rest of my abilities thank you staff you have any follow-up comments on that no sorry um the only thing that i would like to state is that um that we're dealing with the the minimum code requirements here the section clearly states you know the 44 inches it gives you the exception um down to 36 for the occupant load um i feel like if the intent of the code was to have it below 36 it would have been written that way in the code language that's all i'd like to add thank you let's open up the board now for questions for the applicant could you um speak to me how the unit
025is laid out it looks like the kitchen is on the level one portion of the plan but the garage level um shows in the i guess it's the common area what looks like cabinet work with a sink could you just explain what's going on there i'm just trying to get a sense of how much communication there is between one level and the other let me flip to that um that would be sheet a401 would be the the most we provide the most clarity in regards to that layout i heidi could you no the basically because it is a common area um it could be an area where there might be a television there might be an opportunity for people just to gather um but it'll be the same residents as would be occupying the the
026bedrooms um oh mickey roma not mute thank you um if we get to 401 real quick uh i believe that'd be part of the packet please thank you uh this page i believe is this page yes uh there's no real pretense behind the um the the sink itself outside of um uh potential use for a coffee pot or something again to that that was going to be a wet bar at one point that actually was not we did not i was going to be installing that thank you heidi for clarifying that was not installed i was going to ask if you could chime in thank you so on the same plan the bottom of the stair shows uh what looks like three foot four and a half clear is that that also not the case
027because that's just not the way it was built no if you could um if uh debra if you could zoom in on the bottom of the store i can explain what what um uh kind of on-the-fly installation was created um there are i i don't believe that plan was taking into account the column location which functionally packs out some of that stair um that was uh obviously a coordination issue during the design phase you'll see a line um you see a dashed line coming down up above the stair um the that line basically is continuation of the the partition up above which forms the east side of that wall of that stairway wall that's now continues and and actually comes down as a at handrail height down below okay and my other question and i
028don't know if you can see this is is that how the strainers are actually supporting the stair uh they like that they most likely are embedded to the framing yes but they would be running on the sides that's correct okay so they're they're inside the finished wall that's correct they're inside that half inch of gym support [Music] look at the photographs that were in the packet it looks like the gypsum board runs past the the floor system past the concrete on the left-hand side it does it does we have that half inch and then you say you can take a half inch off of the concrete um um plank that would get you the one inch we took as much off the concrete um as we could there was there was approximately an inch and
029a half removed um leaving just under a half inch remaining of concrete cover before the rebar was struck that was a maximum allowed tolerance by kirkstra so portions of that plank were removed the tolerance if that plank had been left in place would have been much tighter at least an inch and a half so yes the drywall on both sides the gypsum board excuse me on both sides does run does run along the face of the one on the left-hand side of the picture here is the fire rated assembly where the one on the right is not fire-rated that is correct that's right sir how wide is the handrail in that photo [Laughter] that was a i assume i i don't know at the top of my head i didn't that was actually a owner's
030selection i don't know if you know off the top of your head either well i gotta believe it's it's code compliant that was confirmed um i don't know i i honestly didn't measure that when i went out to confirm dimensions myself i apologize compliant in terms of the the grip yes what was there a specific idea you had in mind in terms of how that could well i'm i'm assuming that you haven't and this is from a purely practical point of view in that the stair the way i see it the handrail kind of encroaches on the usable width of the stair that's true so if you have your inch and a half finger clearance and let's say you had i think the minimum railing is an inch and a half that's correct do you
031pick up anything i would say so i believe that's a a molded two by so that would be three and a half by itself so we're probably uh easily four inches um four and a half beyond the face of wall so we could easily pick up uh an inch and a half dimension through uh modification to handrail itself that would create more space for sure absolutely i think it solves the problem of the the wall-to-wall space but it uh but it does minimize the um the overall encroachment of the handrail into that dimension and that would be that would be obviously an easy fix to make correct so in this photo in the photograph there down below the floor height there you could shift that over an inch because it's the columns back from the
032finish there once you get past the floor thickness height you could make it the right width because you furred that wall out and that's not fire rated down below the floor deck kind of like that that pony wall that sticks out that's that's right where where we basically have the handrail on the left-hand side tidy i think is mr darling's referencing um yes that could be modified at the down below absolutely yeah so paul are you talking about just modifying the that one wing wall at the bottom i mean ideally you could move you could move the one here to the right move that over an inch and you know and then maybe the board comes down and you see the exposed edge of plank that you paint there and it continues down so you
033maximize you don't lose the half inch finish for the board there i don't know how much you're going to get 36 inches it's assuming they must want to wear it because they've already taken an inch and a half off during construction before they put the wall up so it seemed like they were knew it was an issue um prior to the finish we if i if i may hide one one of the talking points we had earlier i could i could i could express would be um owing to the to the very tight tolerances and the the the want to make this as close if not fully code to blind or there could be an option of of replacing sections of that drywall with a thinner drywall we could this is half inch and again
034even on the firewall side um the way the system is designed it's it's functionally the shaft wall that is the fire rating component the the finished surface is a finished surface and i believe i'd have to double check that on the on that side but minimally the right side which would be the west side of the wall could be reduced to a quarter inch board potentially if that would if that would assist add additional comfort to anyone's perspective i'm a little disoriented here in that photo that we're looking at which is the three out or the two hour rated wall to the left at the beginning at the top of the the top stair tread that you see thank you deborah for putting your cursor on it um rob maybe it would be helpful just
035in terms of uh the narrative of how that wall relates to the rest of the building explain why that would be a two-hour fire-rated wall and not the one to the right yeah that there is on not not on the lower level but all the way up on the beginning on the main or first level all continuing through the second level is another unit um the the all of these units were designed with formal and intentionally designed ul rated to our fire separation assembly so the continuation of that was essential um and it was one of the one of the trigger points to maintain that dimension ultimately does that to our wall take a two hours two by six that couldn't be handled with a two by four stud i see you have two by
036six studs built there i don't know if you get any more space by shaving some off that stud down to a you know two by four on the one side um i i every ul was a problem but it does and i i i do not have the eulo open i could quickly research that but i i my understanding is part of the um intention of that is to create a separation from from the exterior face yeah um i don't know if it if the minimum is six or if it's four um that's the only delta yeah i mean if a two by four sidewall two by six two by four were you know gaining potentially more you know i just i would like to go back to mr darling's comment for a moment if
037we could um and i i i do want to make sure that everybody understands it short of disassembling the entire building you know we're we will take any kind of a decision and guidance in terms of modifying things to create space but um just reflecting on the um the um observation that we took as much off the uh that cantilever plants the concrete as possible we did do that and the subsequent to that there were two inspections so uh you know we'll we will bear some real expense in terms of mitigating this and rebuilding it in whatever way you see fit so that we can meet with the requirement um but on the other hand i kind of feel like the the city's a little bit in the boat with us here because we got
038through two inspections uh and and and you know like we we have a good relationship with our inspector and i think our inspector is has always been very communicative with us and we've been very transparent but and yet here we are so to fix this um we're going to have to if if you allow us to fix it um you know we're gonna we have to go to some significant expense to fix it so i don't know how that accounts or plays into any part of this decision but um i would think that that might have some bearing on how this whole thing was viewed i can say that with the greatest respect possible for uh for the people that have worked hard to help us um get to this point from the city well
039i mean realistically it you know to to replace the drywall i think you can only really do it on one side right to preserve the fire separation yes that's correct so i mean the other side where you could remove we could go with thinner drywall um you can't shave anything off the um the precast that's that's there that's right so even even if we eliminated drywall in its entirety on the on the right side of this image we would still be gaining no more than a half inch because of where that ultimate face of the pre-gas plank is at this time yeah so practical things that we could do i think we've already been mentioned we could we could exchange out the drywall on the right hand side and gain a quarter inch we can
040change the handrail to um to not necessarily correct the problem but just just mechanically create more space and then for the eight steps at the bottom or so where there's a half wall we could move that wall out so that the the impact is you know reduced by a third i'm wondering if anybody has looked into the possibility in the sketch on the left hand side is a i presume that's the plank that you're talking about that you've either already shaved a portion of it down um i guess to clarify is that correct you've cut a portion of that plank off yes that uh uh approximately an inch and a half of that plank have been removed already all right so the plank plank manufacturer is saying that's as far as you can go uh
041without taking alternative measures so i'm wondering why the wall beneath couldn't be turned into a bearing wall to support that edge of the plank and cut more of the plank cut more of the plank off put in a a a new wall that would become a bearing wall that would pick up that edge of the plank and then cut more of the plank off if if that strand is if you're within so many uh millimeters or whatever of the strand if you support the plank from underneath then that strand is no longer critical rob what's the footer situation under there i'm checking just to look at the slab plan right now let me flip to uh she's ready for going out of vision for a minute because i think we had to pour a footer
042for that steel um beam there are footings underneath i think two i think there might be two columns along the length of that wall on the east side just to be clear i was referring to the left-hand side in the sketch and if i missed it i apologize well the extreme would be you just take it take eight inches off you take one whole core width of that off you cut in the middle of the core and then the next bar over has a lot of space for the to the piece what does that do to that hallway rob um i'm not i'm not sure we have that much space because um because of the hallway that goes through there that makes sense on this on the main level on the on the bottom level
043well on the main level too what's that yeah it supports all all of the uh it supports us a series of um common walls up to the roof i mean if you do that you'd be replacing the stairs as well right because the stairs only run from wall to wall right now they do that's correct i mean for an inch of probably the finishing of five mechanic cantilever i don't know where they fill it in put a stringer there finish stringer fill the gap um one thing to consider with that already i think there may have been a on the supplemental sketch there is a that i sent along earlier today with this with the overall scratch or supplemental information too many pages in front of me now uh there is a um the way
044that's designed at either end of the opening is a um an embedded plate or an embedded angle to support the width um we obviously would this it would be very unique because we're removing a portion of that um plank yet it continues in both directions beyond the section we'd be removing um i don't know the integrity of that rebar and the other spaces would have to be um updated as well my my concern is much like the ripple effect of the comedy of errors that led us to this moment i'm afraid of what might happen if that that rebar is cut and how it how that then transfers load-wise across the rest of that um because it wouldn't be in the same plane if you can visualize it in plan we have that that with
045opening i think it's 14 feet long we'd only be able to have access to that 14-foot width of section that could be potentially cut out assuming that kircher would even accommodate it and i believe that is a grouted core right now if i'm not mistaken that is correct um both sides in fact are because of the load-bearing capacity above um the that would be i'm just not sure how that what happens when we get beyond that opening then on either the north or south side um without further investigation can i ask a question have we um have we exhausted the uh whether or not this is an interpretation issue um i know that rob had one viewpoint and i i'd certainly hear mr lemieux's uh viewpoint have has that discussion been exhausted or or not
046it looks like in both applications that it says the minimum is 36 depending on what code you're in it still says 36 minimum and we don't have that so rob is that yeah there's i i as much as i would love to say i have a great alternative argument the code is very clear that the third stage i just want to make sure because i understood the um the directions right from the get-go yeah mr darling and i wanted to make sure we're not um working outside of that of course so one question i have for the building department is is the concern is the concern [Music] within the the width of this air alone i mean are there is there anything else that they can do to mitigate the egress situation in this unit
047um but i'm a little bit confused as to what what the question is well i guess what i'm what i'm asking is um [Music] if they were to introduce any other means of egress for example like on the on the uh level one floor plan yeah i'd like to say there was a second door out would that make a difference are you saying like turn one of the egress windows into a proper exit door maybe i'm thinking i'm looking at the back of the stair on level one where the bathroom is oh right is there an opportunity to put a stair to the exterior at that point i don't i don't know that there's a that there's a code route to get there um i don't know if any allowance to reduce the minimum stair
048width based on exits um if that's if if i'm answering your question well i i do think that there is an opportunity to create a sec a primary means of egress out of this level um which would render a compliant the the stair that's presently constructed would be um just communicating there at that point um i think that maybe and i apologize sorry your screen title doesn't give your clear name that was a great question um call me donna that's okay okay fair enough [Laughter] i suspect it was uh it was bob but i didn't want to be presumptuous donna works too um the bearded lady [Laughter] um that there would be some potential for that um there are um there are three there's there's a stair there's a landing already um if you look
049at the unit 11 ground level plan the lower level plan you'll see the stoop for the stair you'll see three window wells and then the fourth one is kind of cut off in that section up on the northwest side there are three window wells there um i'm not certain if there's enough run uh to connect those um without challenging i guess it would almost have to be on that common central window well um to accommodate it going in any other direction puts us into the garage level which i i don't think is a safer means of egress because we're not exiting directly exiting to the exterior there's there's way too much mechanical there anyway precisely i mean even if we could we formally had uh planner boxes rob and now uh we don't so that's
050a second means of egress on the main floor that we could put in we could put a door there right right at the bottom of the stair where it says um but there's a c designation for a small window and there's something else that says a63 oh yes that is a planter box that's correct well that's a planted box yes it's no longer a planter box well the original design right but i think the point is is the walkway go to the wall yes the walkway goes directly to the wall so you could take that window out and put a door in okay so to the building department what i was getting at is if they'll look you know to try to achieve something that's some kind of equivalency in terms of safety would that
051mitigate the one-inch deficiency in the stair in addition in addition with the idea being that it doesn't require two people going up and down the stairs at the same time potentially along those lines because because quite frankly that the whole two people up and down the stair rationality i i don't really see it because the fact that the kitchen's on the main level i see a lot of traffic there and frankly that terrace uh it it looks like you know an invitation for a much bigger group gathering let's put it that way so what i'm trying to suggest is if there's a second door on the main level does that in any way help mitigate the stair situation and and make it an easier situation as far as you know getting people out quickly i
052would i would honestly have to do the the code research on an alternative like that before i could give an accurate answer okay this is what i'm this is what i'm talking about what page is that in the packet i can bring it up 401. 401 you said yes okay page 42 of the packet thank you so yeah so deborah you're see where that um like stop sign is it says c on the left just inside the red box straight up with your pointer and now a little bit to the right that's right there right here the landing area which it looks like that landing area is big enough i believe it is i think if the applicant wanted to propose something else as far as ultimate form of that would be fine i don't
053know if it's the board's um action to come up with a solution to solve the problem as far as the lack of 36 inches um we sure don't want to um propose something that um is outside the purview of what the building department would feel comfortable approving so um i mean we would do the option we could we could table this and you might come up with more options if you can consider or we can make a motion now and you know vote on it um so there's a couple ways we could do it if you want to explore other options as a ways to improve the width of the stair or egress um you can do that i think the next meeting would be in a month or else you you're going to go
054to the variance of the state or um you can reapply over those variants to the city if we took action today right um well i mean and not to make the sausage in front of all of you guys but just netting it out and listening to your guidance in terms of where you have capabilities and where you don't um i don't i don't think that we've made an argument that that allows you to say yes um so i think probably rob what we should do is um table this hoping that we can explore with for example mr lemieux whether adding another means of egress to um where that window is makes the staircase now some kind of almost auxiliary you know third way out as opposed to a primary way out does that make sense
055it does to me yeah i mean i would be i would need to be presented with it with a code path that gets us there we definitely want to make the investment in making this right we're not um we're in no way coming here and saying hey it's it's only an inch so can you be flexible i know you can't um but maybe what we can come up with with uh with you michael since i have you here and um i can just talk to you for a sec is um come up with a second means of egress for the for that main floor and then maybe even a a even a door possibly in the uh in the basement so that there's a primary and then in that sitting room area and then there's
056a second means out of the bedrooms through the egress windows um i again i i'm gonna need to see and i just don't know it off the top of my head or if it exists that doing that allows you to reduce the width of a stairway um and i feel like we keep going back to that um it's in my opinion that the stairway width needs to be corrected but if you put it i think that's what i'm saying is is that there needs to be two means of egress and i think maybe what mr hart is trying to uh get us to is that if the stairway isn't a primary means of egress what's that the supplemental means of egress you know exactly does that make sense rob what i'm saying it does um
057i i it's actually what he's saying not what i'm saying the interpretation thereof yeah um but we would uh you know yes yes it does make sense to me okay so i think i think uh you know if you're asking me if i'd like to table to explore that assuming that it would be helpful uh to get the building department's um concurrence that they could work through this with us in time to revisit next month hopefully with a proposal to indeed be able to classify that stairwell as supplementary i think that is the best course of action here and i and i appreciate every person on this call and their input um to try to help us get this figured out in the proper way are these buildings sprinkled right now is the units fire
058suppressed there's every form of fire suppression man has thought of in these in these units yeah there's dense glass there's sprinkling there's yeah yeah we're fire fire rated fire suppressed um three hours everywhere paid attendant with standing by with a hose the whole night so sometimes sometimes we'll see that you're providing providing additional level of protection that wasn't required to help you compensate for this but it was already hard to be suppressed you don't wouldn't wouldn't get that benefit you wouldn't get that right well and i think that's where the the kind of the hybrid commercial residential interpretation really came in um so if these if these buildings weren't sitting on top of a garage um which we had to build because we needed parking right then all of this extra that we put in
059would be over and above and but and we still have the the plinth separation which is huge and all the fire collars go through so i guess we could kind of um add that in as a supple as some supplemental encouragement but you're right i i don't know that it gives us extra points in the argument but it's required anyway required anyways it's not supplement it's not in addition to what is required it's if there are things and if you wanted to look at you know there are ways to move that wall over make the wall thinner the non party wall you know if you've exhausted those options to take on the finish off or something like that it would be good to know yeah i mean the question is is can we can we
060safely get there and meet your requirement of um you know like you said you don't have the option to just wave it so i don't know if we can get to 36 is a problem if you got to 36 you wouldn't need the variance anymore so if you get to 36 that's ideal if you can't come back with something you're proposing uh you know that's yeah most is you can get to 36 and with something else that helps conversation so i think i think the safest alternative is to try to figure out a way um to get comfortable around making that stairwell a supplementary stairwell i believe jeff has a question is it stand up yeah i just want to be clear from my perspective when this when and if this comes back that i
061personally don't agree that a second means of egress on that main level or whatever you call that level is mitigates the problem and so if michael finds a pathway in the code that says that providing that uh mitigates the problem then fine but if in the absence of that i'm not willing to waive the width requirements on the stair [Music] and so i just want to be clear that to go through a lot of effort to add a door to it and if you bring that back i'm going to vote against it you don't have you don't have full knowledge of how people on the board feel you know about uh granting your variance it's just exploring you won't know that if we take a vote to a certain point but what the my point
062was that from my perspective i would hate to see the petitioner go through a bunch of difficulty adding a doorway that i'm going to vote against anyway i can't speak for the rest of the board so personally i would like to see some alteration made to the structure to get to the 36 inches and then you don't need the variance because i'm not willing to uh i'm not willing to stick my neck out to there are certain things in the code that i would be willing to depend on but width of a stairway is just not one of them so i just want to make my position clear so you know where at least one vote is going to be on this board okay definitely want some you will definitely want to have your variants
063before you proceed with any kind of ultimate alternate measure obviously yeah we would never go to the expense of actually putting a door in without knowing that it was going to solve the problem and and to be clear too i don't know of a code path that gets you a reduced stairwell um though i'm just not aware of that so the applicant wants to make a request a table that we can have a motion that way the board someone on the board can make a motion to table this application until we get uh additional information sounds good kindly request that we're table then please all right bob you want to make a motion to table this i moved that in uh in the case of dba 21-001 that the [Music] appeal for variance is tabled
064until our next meeting pending further research on behalf on the part of the applicant in conjunction with the department of buildings have a second continue to second in the motion a second okay thank you those in favor aye aye all right and composed okay this motion is tabled until we have additional information from the applicant thank you for your time the next item on the agenda is uh uh next item on the agenda is item e2 uh um we've [Music] got more discussions any old business that we want to talk about for the board well if i could i neglected to enter the staff that was in attendance in the record if i could do so now okay okay we have um brandy lewis jamie worthington john wiser mark howell michael redman glenn dempsey janet
065farrell gary and myself deborah williams thank you all right thank you is there any new business that the board has any reports of communication any public commentary no one in the waiting room no one in the waiting room okay we have a motion to adjourn move to adjourn second oh second all right thank you those in favor aye [Music] all right we are adjourned 234 thank you you