001e e e pm um let's see welcome to the December 3rd 2020 electronic meeting of the environmental commission this meeting is in accordance with executive orders from the governor to affect social distancing and mitigate the spread of the covid-19 virus we intend to conduct this meeting similar similarly to an in-person meeting however please be patient if there are technical issues public comment will be via telephone only to speak during any of the public comment opportunities please call 888 099 or 9723 and enter meeting ID 5952 this information is also available on the published agenda in the Public Notices section of the city website and on the broadcast of this meeting on CTN Channel 16 AT&T channel 99 and online at www.a2gov.org CN thank you okay gayen do you want to do the let's do the
002introductions um first we have the two council members U so let's go and then we have Lily Ferris who should be here I'm gon to assume we lost gayen for a second so council member Griswald would you like to start yeah I'm sorry I just WIP the door um council member yes I'm I'm thrilled to be here I'm very very interested in this area and I look forward to working with you welcome to the commission thank you welcome welcome Kathy council member Lisa dish hey everyone um I'm representing W one and very very excited to be part of a city that is leading the way towards a20 and has been a head of the game in terms of recycling for many years and I'm really really happy to be on this commission where I can
003help do some of this important work Guided by all of your expertise all right well uh commissioner Lily Ferris hi everyone um today is my first official meeting um and I'm really excited to be working with everyone awesome welcome welcome Lily sorry it took so long no worries okay those are the introductions we see you Steve Canen yeah okay good yeah I'm on my iPhone 5 so if I if I get disconnected I think is Rita there somewhere if I get disconnected um I think I would like to transfer the chair responsibilities to Rita until I can get ready connect then we get okay great so um so gayen will you do the roll call I sure will uh commissioner Graham I'm here commissioner Skinner commissioner Skinner right uh commissioner NM here council member dish
004here commissioner Slavic commissioner Slavic oh I see her gayen okay I'm here har uh commissioner Apple commissioner Gib Randall council member gwall here commissioner calart here chairman Brown presid council member over pet council member over pet I mean I'm sorry commissioner overp I'm sorry about that commissioner overp commissioner marsky here uh Vice chair Mitchell here commissioner Bunda here and uh commissioner feris yeah all right okay excellent looks like we have a forum yes we do have AUM we have a quorum okay so the um land Heritage statement gayen will you read the land Heritage statement indeed alrighty uh I acknowledge that the land of city of an arbor occupies is the ancestrial traditional and contemporary lands of the anishi nabii including the odwa ewe bod WME and whed out peoples I further acknowledge that our
005city stands like almost all property in the United States on lands obtained generally in in in uncashable ways from indigenous peoples this taking of this land was formalized by the treaty of Detroit in 1807 knowing where we live work study and recreate does not change the past but a thorough understanding of the ongoing consequences of this past can Empower us in our work to create a future that supports human flourishing and justice for all individuals okay thank you gayen so um let's go to the approval the agenda um is there a motion to approve the agenda moved second Rita John seconds um um um uh I can't see anybody so uh if you uh if you agree to approve the agenda as submitted uh please raise your hand okay um are there any objections any
006no votes please uh say so verbally okay looks like it was approved the agenda is approved as written um excuse me Steve I I just want to acknowledge that um commissioner overp just joined the meeting as well oh yeah okay yeah okay hi p uh thank you yeah when I come on I come on in the webinar mode and it freaks me out but eventually I guess the webinar mode turns into this so I've never seen that before until I ran into this organization okay all right so so let's move on to the special presentations first we have Andrea aido of the bird center of Washton County um so Andrea you have the floor good evening guys thank you for having me um I am here I'm going to share my screen here with you
007guys for uh a little presentation I made together to let you know who the bird center of wasar county is okay see here all right sorry when it when I did that it took my part of my screen away to make me make this a full screen for everybody I think if you hit slideshow at the top that might do it see here did it do anything just go over to now go over to from beginning and the L ah up one that one gotcha okay I'm not the best with computers okay so my name again is Andrea audo and I am the clinic director of the bird center of Wasa County uh the bird center Wasing county is a 501c3 nonprofit charity organization that runs off of donations with no state or federal funding
008uh we're located in a residential neighborhood so we're located actually on Mary Street which is off of Hoover right near the IM building and uh we have been there since 2012 uh the city has given us this building uh in um in agreement that we move out for City elections um this building was built in 1903 and is one of of the oldest buildings around in that area uh we accept uh birds and each year we take in Birds and the number is growing each year and uh just as of this year I've been doing our final numbers and we're just under 1,400 birds in one year so a little bit more about who we are so we take in injured and orphan Birds we commonly see hatchlings and nestlings that have fallen out of
009the tree um usually in the springtime at the beginning of the year and then we um without the ability to renest them people will bring them into us and uh the fledglings that are usually injured on the off the ground from predators since they have the inability to fly away those are brought to us and then injured birds that might have collided into Windows or sometimes are H hit by cars those birds are brought to us uh the most common reason birds come into our Center the top three would be um a cat cat attacks collisions whether that's a window strike or a car and then Nest or tree destruction we commonly see pesticide issues and um just a lot of different just issues with are caught in like substances um we get a lot
010of birds that are caught um in in like oils from like car shops around in an arbor so people will bring us those birds we treat all medical cases with uh Veterinary prescribed medication provide oxygen and fluid therapy and per uh provide uh supportive care uh these birds get vitamins when they're young and get live enrichment with diets with insects crickets all that sorts of good stuff and uh give them as much supplements that we can as they would have in the in the wild here's a few photos of an example of birds brought into to us uh again I am the clinic director I'm a licensed rehabilitator federal and state license and I'm also a veterinary technician of uh close to 15 years I do have staff that works with us um I took
011over um in 200 2017 as the clinic director our founder Carol acof uh was with us and retired and I took over the position after I spent a few years volunteering and then um became you know employed we have staff we get a lot of our staff from the University of Michigan for students there are involved in programs such as uh environmental Sciences that's one of our largest ones that we get students from uh we also get students that are going into conservation biology and also preet students that are going to Michigan State we also depend on our volunteers which are one of our biggest biggest helps so we educate the public a lot that's one of our biggest biggest things so we do that through our social media platforms different brochures handouts and different
012ways to spread spread our mission and goals we do a lot of public fundraising events and yearly organiz uh yearly events with different organizations um we're involved sometimes uh doing public events with uh creature Conservancy Leslie Nature Center um and even Barn Sanctuary which is right outside of Ann Arbor we speak at different schools we go to wildbirds Unlimited stores and we do uh VAR uh various events with our educational Ambassador which is a blue jay and uh her name is blue so we try to educate the public on who we are and what we do with the help of our bird who is non-releasable uh due to unfortunate human human interactions so uh we have been on a few public radio talk shows and we also uh were on a cable access show in
013Ann Arbor as well and ways you can help us a lot of people don't know who the bird center is and uh my goal has been for the past three years as the Director is making people more aware of who we are and the benefits at what we do uh the birds basically are our pollinators for our environment and without the birds we would not be here honestly and so they are a huge huge uh importance to us and we like to educate people on social media we do uh mailing lists with different information uh as far as our educational events you can always find information about us on online on our website and then we also have yearly memberships with patreon and different ways obviously to volunteer um we strive on providing education on
014how to help our native songbirds with planting native you know and doing different things around our environment to make things better so a few examples of what we try to educate the people and you with is how can you help your bird simply at home people always ask us that first so we always say simple steps if you're going to offer seat try to do it year round want to provide a water bath and make sure that your feeders are always clean you can protect your windows with proper blinds or window deterrence as I said one of our main main issues is window collisions so we want to try and protect our Birds keeping your cats indoors um they don't belong in our environment and they can be pretty destructive outside and they can be
015injured themselves so um for a win for all we keep like to keep the cats inside not to spray any pesticides on our lawn or flowers not only is that bad for just our environment in general but we're also trying to make sure that we're not killing off any of the food that our birds are eating and avoid cutting the trees during the springtime that's when our birds and other Wildlife are going to be in the trees so if you can hold off on your projects the birds would appreciate it um checking your yard before you mow the grass is a common thing that you wouldn't really think to do but there's a lot of birds on the ground and planting native which is a big thing to help the environment and uh for your
016yard and we try to educate the people on the phone first um if you have found an injured bird give us a call we're going to walk through a series of steps to try to figure out if that bird is actually injured and needing help um or if it's actually supposed to be out there in the wild doing its own thing so we offer um guidance through that and ask for photos and videos of the birds before they're brought into us we ask that you always um take a picture or something and give us a call once you have secluded this bird in a box and don't give it any food or water oftentimes we'll get callers that found a bird outside and they'll say Hey you know this bird needs help and then they
017go outside and say oh it's gone or we don't know where it is so we always say conf find the bird first and then we can help you from there and then we do need assistance with you bring in the bird to us because excuse me unfortunately as a nonprofit we don't have any staff or any paid transit to go and do pickup so if you're able to help us out with that we do and that's kind of a really Rush speed through chat about who we are and what we do um in the long run so our goal obviously is to rehab and release as many Native song birds as possible um with the aid of you know providing education um with these birds and and help with our our environment so that was
018me fast I can usually talk and do this whole thing in like an hour so it's really little topics yeah thank you Andrea no that was you're welcome that was an excellent overview and I presume your website what's your website titled it's Bird center.org Okay and then on Facebook we're Bird Center washing off okay great um are there any questions for Andrea I have one this is Rita hi Andrea that was a great presentation and um I just wanted to comment on your last picture those were chimney Swifts right they are I were you the one that talked with Dana about the chimney swift yes I'm so excited um that that you're actually a specialist area you know group in rehabbing chimney Swifts right and they're one of my absolute favorites I fell in love
019with them when I first started at the center and I now um get all my education on Chimney Swifts from an actual chimney an actual specialist um in California who works with variety of Swift species and um she's given me all the the information on how to take care of them properly and um each year our number is growing most of the time chimney Swifts come into our facility because people have them fall to the bottom of their chimney and don't really want to bother getting them back up and I will say they are one of the hardest Birds to renest only because you have to get into a chimney or climb on a roof and we don't want anybody to hurt themselves so um the numbers are growing and this year we had 25
020of them uh come in and um we'll we're definitely going to try and arrange something with you in this spring and uh NE or summer of next year and and get to see them release um we usually go to H I'm completely blinded on on the name of the the the school uh Mac Mac Elementary that's name yeah yeah yeah yep so that's where we typically release the majority of our Swifts because they have one of the largest colony in an arbor and um yeah they're a wonderful species they're incredible to take care of and um I love them yeah and they they do a lot for us in the environment right in terms of of eating insects and um yeah that's they fly non-stop from morning till night that's why you will never see
021them and they are get up as high as you can possibly think they eat all of our bugs for us and so that's why they're important um and and especially with the pesticides um usually um the cool thing about them I was gon yeah that's what I was I'm like too excited to talk about Swift um this is why they're cool and I'll just say this one fact they can sleep when they fly and that they don't stop in the day they sleep in flight they eat in flight and they fly all the way to the other side of the continent without a problem and they are magnificent little creatures and we are very happy to have them we also specialize in swallow species and hummingbirds so um a lot of from across uh Michigan
022because there's only honestly about five Songbird rehab or rehab centers that see birds in lower Michigan and uh we're one of the only ones that specializes specifically in s Birds only and with these guys so we get referrals from um Michigan with these guys so we have really good success rate with them and um just continue to hope okay all right are there any more questions for Andrea you'll have to speak up I can't see anybody else what's your an your what's your annual budget annual budget is roughly about 130,000 a year and that's off of donations and we have maybe two to three established grants that we get yearly um and then maybe random ones but typically off of donations um I have another question Andrea just about um release options um when I
023talked with Dana she had thought that there might be some opportunities for us to coordinate with the the city to coordinate with you in terms of possibly some locations in town that might be city property that would be um good places to release birds so I'm just kind of suggesting that we continue a conversation if if that hasn't been done yet yeah it' be wonderful we usually try to release a lot of our Birds um back to their original site if it's safe I mean commonly these birds are coming in because they're injured in that area but if we can get them back to their original habitat we like to if not we try to release commonly at the Botanical Garden um we release at the ARB we release at Gallup Park um those are
024usually the main ones that we like just because of the habitats in general yes okay all right any other H questions or comments okay well thank you Andrea thank you guys for having me I appreciate it and keep up all your amazing work that you guys do yeah thank you so much all right have a good evening you too all right bye bye bye okay the next item on the agenda is um Missy staltz office of sustainability and Innovations um department presentation uh with a resolution in support of energy principles um Missy you have the floor thank you so much chair Brown well hi everybody I don't have a slide deck for today because I just want to talk to you following the practice that we put in place in the commissions where we're presenting
025an idea and then give a month for people to comment and reflect and the idea would be we'd come back in January with this but I want to give a little bit of context as we're moving forward with a20 we have a lot of actions related to energy which makes a lot of sense when you look at our emissions profile so we've been working on our renewable energy strategy and we have a number of Pathways that we have mapped out we've been working with Partners on but overall what guides that are a series of principles and we are presenting those principles to you today in draft format hoping we can have a little discussion and you can follow up with us offline and then in January uh we would love to have formal adoption or
026support from this body of those principles and the intent is we'll be doing this with a number of different commissions and then going to council um hopefully in February asking for formal support for these principles which will give us really the policy guidance in terms of which actions we actively pursue in our energy Quest and which ones maybe aren't the priority for our community so I'm going to present the principles as we have currently drafted them this comes from best practice research it certainly comes from the development of a20 and the conversations that we had with community members and again these are just draft but um and first introduction of this so don't don't worry I doubt anyone had a chance to look at this but there are six principles and I'm just quickly going
027to articulate them and very much look forward to any conversation folks have the first of course is a20 is about reducing greenhouse gas emissions so finding solutions that do that and that may seem pretty self-evident but we do want to name that front and center and I do want also want to articulate these aren't in priority order uh so they just happen to be uh listed in this way we can always re rejer them if that feels important the second principle is focusing on enhancing the resilience of our people our community and our natural systems in the work that we do around a renewable energy future and you can see underneath uh in the resolution before you the draft there's further articulation of what we mean by this and so this was one I'll just
028I'll name thinking about things like micro grids and thinking about uh where we can have redundant power supply and prioritizing emergency service Personnel in terms of microing um or battery storage thinking about um our low-income neighborhoods and what resources they rely on and so as we're thinking about where to deploy first and how to deploy batteries as we're ramping up Battery Technology this would guide our decision making in that Cas the third is making sure our choices are grounded in equity and to the fullest extent possible avoid placing any additional burdens on low-income in minority populations the fourth we want our investments The Proposal is that they would be new Investments and placing fossil fuel-based fuels and this feels important of course from the community conversation we have but you could go to the market
029today and we could buy wind um we could buy good wind wind in Texas but we could buy wind that was pushing wind Off the Grid so because there's been a legacy of production of wind in that market if we're not careful about how we buy we could be stimulating no displacement of fossil fuels and again um just the addition of Renewables moving Renewables and I don't think what our community is looking for the fifth is about geography we here a clear preference for local so where we can local when not possible Regional and if not possible in this region for a myriad of reasons that to the fullest extent feasible our project should be located in environmental justice communities with environmental justice communities so making sure that it's co-designed co-produced employing uh folks of
030that Community by that community in this work and I'll say here um I know some people really would like to see all of the Renewables local I will tell you that is not possible we do not have enough land enough rooftops for all local within the borders of an arbor so as we think about maximizing what we can do locally we're going to eventually have to go out as well and so we really want some guidance about what that looks like so we can make decisions that feel right for us and the values we hold and then the six um we talked a lot about scalability and transferability within the planning of a20 and the intent here is finding solutions that don't just work for an arbor but solutions that create a pathway for others
031to follow so if we're going to do this maybe it's deep policy work do that policy work uh what this is proposing is to do that policy work in a way that allows perhaps everyone in Michigan to be able to follow since we have more capacity um we're kind of at the tip of the spere how do we really be leaders or uh using our University model leaders inv best in terms of creating a pathway that really opens up uh scaling and transferring the solutions we find so these are the ideas we have before you there's a little bit of a description here uh definitely not meant to be overwhelming but to to give staff really that direction that we need as we're looking because I I doubt it'll surprise you a lot of people
032are interested in working with us in this space and we're actively trying to figure out the best choices for our community based on our community's values so that is all I actually wanted to share I would love to hear any reactions if anyone has any um also happy to set up a side conversation with folks if You' like to add some more clarity [Music] Pat okay yeah thank you missy um so you'll have to speak up again if you have any comments or questions I do Missy P um thanks Missy that was that was really a short and sweet and um packed with good stuff and as you know tomorrow we're going to be having our University of Michigan carbon neutrality meeting where we're going to be talking about some goals and they're going to
033be go goals that are I think uh following hopefully the same values or principles and the one I question I had was on the equity one uh I think you're right we want to make sure there's no extra burden uh on uh populations that are typically exposed to the extra burden but I think we could expand that to include uh greater benefit for so for example when we go and uh if we do try and purchase power to offset carbon emitted in an arbor uh we'd want to add hopefully um a desire to benefit uh communities uh of color or lowincome that have here to for been uh getting the burden the extra burdens um and I think we could do that as you know and I just wanted to clarify that that's great thank
034you for that thank you John Steve is it okay if I call people out since I can see them oh yeah that's fine go ahead okay John I see you sure yeah uh let me State my thanks to for putting this together really thoughtful um could you talk a little bit more how you envision the principles guiding the work you see this more as kind of like a a soft approach we'd use these and think about them or something perhaps harder that you know any would need to meet some set of these principles before being supported yeah it's a good question and I would actually uh love to hear your thoughts and how best to apply it I can say it's absolutely a it's already a soft principle it's already kind of in Us in
035terms of how we're thinking about this the question of rigor I mean how many does something have to pass muster is interesting uh to think about and I'd say the we are faced with a lot of options in terms of how to achieve these goals and we're trying to find ways to prioritize those that will be consistent consistent probably too uh ambitious of a word maximize impact right well yeah we need to analyze the impact of it but we also want to be able to point to it and say we said these were the principles and he the options that align with those principles if it's four out of five if it's well four is six that's fine twoo is there you know I don't know are there three that we're going to say everything
036unequivocally has to touch these and these feel really good and we want these it has to be these completely open so I would love any thoughts do do you have a reaction um I think I don't think you want to go to the the ends and either way you know that it's so soft that you forget about them and you know they're nothing and then too hard too rigid too hard that you're kind of boxed in but I think something that gives them some weight that allows you to make those hard that support you in making those hard decisions between options that come up so I'm more towards something harder but not that's too confining for you because this is a guide right it's not um you know to help you with your decisions yeah
037yeah that's great Peck I saw I saw you again do you have an analytical framework for us no I don't think I was I thought I did and then I started thinking and realized I wasn't coming up with anything worth saying we can come back possibly with something John when we come in January with a proposal because I think that's a really good point Bob um these look uh really great and I look forward to um further discussion I just one thing that hit me just at first glance um also on the equity piece um you might want to consider uh a slight rewarding there I the way that the fullest extent possible Clause strikes me as as kind of a a hedge that that we might you know might not live up to that
038if it's not possible you might want to just consider something like our grounded inequity and avoid and do not Place additional burdens you know something like that great that's really helpful thanks Bob Rita um Miss I love the idea of having some principles and thank you for putting them together um and I think that I you've talked about the local aspect that's one of my preferences for anything that we do to maximize our local um energy production um so I guess that's just a response um and I would love to have some kinds of standards or something that we can use to help make decisions so I think that is introducing measurables of some kind and I don't even know what those are um uh and then back to the local thing I think what
039would help at least me to um know what next steps we'll be doing is like how much do we need you know or how much do we expect to use you know and and I think that's where I kind of get into the measurable so it's I think you're at a really good point for this time for for introducing these um and thanks for doing that yeah and reader just to respond to so we've actually done the modeling and that's how we know what we we need um so we've done projections excuse me that modeled out if if a20 everything is hit what's the electrical load going to look like how are we going to displace that looking at capacity factors of solar versus wind to figure out because it's it's not one for one
040because they generate differently right they have different capacity Factor so we have numbers behind them and now we're sort of looking at it and saying okay we have to propose how we're going to achieve that and this is where these principles come in and I'll give an example we're thinking about what if we had an Energy Efficiency benefit what if um and this is an idea that we've been kind of playing with in our head what if we actually uh invested in low-income communities to reduce their energy consumption and effectively that's an energy reduction wreck it's energy that was never created what is that and what if that's in Highland Park and in Flint would that count how would that play So I'm excited about the process ECT of that but I don't want to
041go down the path of of moving that kind of an initiative forward if it doesn't align with these kinds of principles because that's different right than built really different but also kind of cool to think about and has different values so just to give an example of like the those are kind of the extreme things that I'm holding in my head and figuring out where we want to put that yeah yeah no I've had similar ideas you know and just the question is just how do you do the the implementation and what does it mean in terms of our demand locally you know if we don't have a sense of what it is that we're using that that creates that that requires the energy um we need a feedback loop somehow we as as the
042community um and I think when it gets less local it's less clear well and that's our greenhouse gas inventory too and the accounting methodology and I would just say I I recognize um this isn't what we're talking about but we have just posted on the website a more detailed analysis of the 2019 inventory if anyone wants to look so we put uh the methods the metrics it's on the website I went up Thanksgiving week I can't believe the world didn't talk about it but there you have it if youd like to take a look council member dish I'm so sorry we missed that I I apologize to you I just wanted to observe that I think some of what you have here our principles and so it's going to be more soft but others are
043really kind of they're inviable I mean the new investment that displays fossil fuels there is absolutely no point in not making that standard of additionality that right why would we put money into something that's going to happen anyway or that just displaces another renewable off so so that one would probably so what I'm saying is um a must yeah I'm saying that that these are some of these are they're different they're of different there there are oranges and apples here and the Apple might be a baseline that every project must meet because otherwise we're not going to invest in it but others of these might be tradeoffs like you could enhance resilience but it might not be local and what you described like if we can invest in putting solar in another part of the
044country where it's generating more energy why can't we invest in insulation in other parts of Michigan obviously we do it here first but why not spread our you know our investments around when they can increase Equity so there' be there'd be Arguments for this doesn't do this but it does that whereas there could never be an argument that oh this doesn't displace any fossil fuels but we had a Lobby who thought it would be a good idea whatever you know right um so yeah I mean obviously what I'm saying yeah that's great yeah I appreciate that peek you're on mute PE you'd never know I do Zoom like every minute of the day every day um the uh that raises the issue of costs both to the city and ultimately to taxpayers and to Citizens
045because some of the costs would be borne uh through regular ation directly by the citizens and some would be born by the city I suppose right and so we have to figure out a way you know how to balance that out um and we're going through this exact same thing at the University of Michigan and uh Missy and I and a number others really pushing hard for Michigan to be compliant with an arbor um that brings up a second issue which is uh at Michigan University of Michigan there's no way to go carbon neutral by 2030 uh with local technological solutions meaning really you know being getting free of fossil fuel and other types of emissions by 2030 so uh we're pushing the idea of uh purchasing uh credits or offsets um using that term
046loosely um that would allow us to do it earlier uh and at the same time why we're doing the technological fixes so in the end we're carbon neutral but we're disc carb neutral a lot earlier and the reason I bring that up is not just to meet Ann Arbor's goal um but also because ultimately perhaps one of the most important justice issues is the speed with which we do this because um as long as we're doing it uh slowly there are communities in the United States and around the world that are situated near fossil fuel polluting uh locations power plants and their suffering but also climate change itself is uh increasingly affecting uh the world and disproportionately affecting uh some people over others um and so one of the most important things to do is
047do this fast so that raises a another issue which is should there be a principle of uh speed uh in other words um we could wait until 2029 because we think there's going to be some great technological advance but really what and I know your answer is I mean no we're going to start right away and uh there should be a an extra weight placed on quicker uh for environmental justice reasons but remember we got to somehow balance this out against uh equity and cost and a bunch of other things so I think both the University of Michigan an an arbor have to come up with a what folks here are asking for which is a more of a decision tree or a rubric for decision making which is certainly doable I just can't come
048up with it off the top of my head yeah p p thanks he he named a lot I see you John um he named a lot of things that that we really are sitting with at the um Commission on carbon neutrality the president's Commission on carbon neutrality and there's this um Kick right that if you start offsetting now that's just less money that you have to invest in on-site but that's not a bad thing because you're reducing emissions and so this is inherently what we're trying to get at in these principles is are we sprinting at local reductions as fast as possible and then we bring offsets in at the tail end with whatever we don't hit do we flip the narrative now and do offsets if I'm going to write an RFP for offsets
049or building new Renewables what are the things I'm asking for I'm asking for environmental justice am asking for it like what am I I don't right like I I want to make sure that when I go to the community and say we did it here in this way in this place people are like yes we did and so just sharing um sorry John over you I I'd like to support PC's statement and if I may quote uh the former chair of the energy commission Wayne Appleyard the way he put it is that we need to minimize the area under the emissions overtime curve and if you look at for example what the University is doing um not to pick on the University but you can probably say that about a lot of entities in the
050world as a whole is we've known what we've needed to do um Mary Sue Coleman set a Target and um we're not you know doing anything even close to a linear um reduction to get to the minus 25% by minus by 2025 we're going to be introducing really significant um reductions um here with the central power plant and with the PPA with DTA DTE relatively late in the process and that those are the kinds of things that I think peek is saying we we need to think about and balance it's just as as you both point it out it's one of these things that we have to balance um with a number of different principles um as Lisa's indicated some are sort of black and white and then other ones have to be balanced against
051each other thanks John um well I don't want oh I'm sorry PE did you wanna okay okay you should talk okay I I was gonna say um just kind of closing out the conversation because I don't want to dominate your time together I know you have other business to do what I heard if I if I S ort of could give it back uh to the group to make sure I got this right is that one there are some things maybe looking at this and saying the these aren't optional so let's kind of lay out like things have to be additional they have to displace fossil fuels those were the two that I in particular heard and then the rest are actual principles and adding to those principles um there was some language around Equity
052that needs to be cleaned up I love that thank you and then maybe adding a principle of speed um that to the extent so it's sort of held at the same level that it's a factor we have to with as we um I would say if anyone has anything else to let me know certainly now or send me a note too we'll be going to the energy commission next week and getting more feedback um and super excited about bringing these forward uh because this this to us is uh the thing we need consensus or at least some consensus on um or some collaboration around so we can just Sprint uh so thank you all for engaging in this conversation and helping us create it okay yeah well thank you missy it's a great it's a
053great initiative okay so um let's see uh we've moved on to the portion of the agenda for the first public commentary so I'm going to read a statement um this is an opportunity for persons to speak for up to three minutes please call 1888 7888 0099 and enter meeting ID 924 oh I'm sorry 953 0253 5952 this information is also displayed on the meeting agenda and video feed City staff will select callers that have raised their hand one by one using the last three digits of your phone number in order to electronically raise your hand to indicate your desire to speak please press star n on your phone you will hear an automated announcement that the host is allowing you to speak when speaking please move to a quiet area and mute any television or
054background sounds so that we may hear you clearly please state your name and address at the beginning of your comments and please be patient there is a delay of up to 30 seconds before connection is established hey gayen is there anybody in the queue yet ye yes uh we have a caller 411 okay great so um caller 411 please go ahead state your name and address um chairman Brown can you hear me yes I can I think we all can uh oh very good glad to hear that uh this is James deore and I live at 2771 Maplewood Avenue in Arbor Michigan 48104 I live in the Third Ward um I'm calling you tonight to uh uh um speak in support of a resolution that's before you uh uh in support of the uh uh
055floodway flood plane management overlay zoning District uh ordinance um I appreciate the work that Jerry Hancock has uh uh put in regards to this issue and I think it's a great uh um um overlay that's a something that's coming before the city I think it's a great idea I glad that D we're moving forward with it and I've had a chance to look at the resolution before you tonight I love the language that's there it's Forward Thinking and uh request the city to do more work I think as all as you know uh the issue of climate change we have greater uncertainty in terms of uh um you know large storm water events uh 1% events 0. 2% um it's just something we have to really prepare for particularly the as um we deal with
056climate change andite the fact that growth pressures on the city are continuing and and never continues to develop and grow um the issue of protecting our uh uh flood um fls and the flood Fringe is uh important um for the issues that you have discussed just credential ASE myself I'm a former member of the City Planning Commission and I was that body's representative to S Creek Greenway task force so I'm familiar um with the uh efforts that were um um being discussed this evening as a result of it and something to keep in mind mind too as uh we move forward with this as um even though there are buildings in the flood Fringe um over time uh they become more untenable um it's not something that's a burden upon the city um it's just
057something that we do um in terms of Forward Thinking and I'm glad that the city is doing this and I don't have anything more in terms of eloquence to say so I'm going to mute my phone and say thank you very much for the opportunity and thank you all right thank thank you James um gayen is there anyone else there are no other hands raised okay well um let's move on to the approval of the minutes then so uh this is an unusual situation we have four we we have a minutes of four previous meetings today due to various technical glitches so um why don't we go in order and start off with September 24th um I think uh given the circumstances here I think um um people have had have reviewed the current minutes
058that were drafted by Galen so if you have any um suggestions to amend those minutes for September 24th uh please speak up now just read I made I submitted one suggestion for uh modification for the 24th and that is just that we did not approve the flood plane or uh overlay um ordinance that was submitted to us so I would just eliminate that um and and I did send that to gayen yeah that's correct um that certainly is correct okay kayen I I I have a a a comment SL question um as both Steve and gayen know I submitted a number of um minor revisions I would say for the most part um I don't know that we I need to go through all of them Steve I think you acknowledged that um that they
059need to be made um so I don't know how you want to handle that but um yeah um yeah I think it's it's important that everybody gets a chance to look at them but to me there were all just clarifications and expansions they um they really didn't add anything so um unless somebody objects to that I think uh we'll just have Galen incorporate them and then um and then I guess we can vote to approve them with those amendments and really there were just a few clarifications here and there you know such as what what Rita just suggested it um I know it's very unusual but um this seems to be uh I'm happy to hear any objections okay hearing none I think that's what we'll do Galen is why not um for all all
060four of these sets of of uh of uh minutes why don't you make those minor Corrections and um then um let's see uh and then um send them back to the Commissioners afterwards but I think uh we can approve them in principle now I don't see any reason to delay this any further um if there are minor Corrections um so is there a motion to approve them with these minor amendments am moved second and this applies then to all of the minutes or just to the 24th we might as well do all four of them that um any objections um um okay if you approve BL your hand or okay I'm going to assume it's uh it's uh I can't see can you see Rita that was unanimous okay thanks everybody all right and thank
061you gayen so please uh include those amendments and then send them out to all the Commissioners just for a a check okay okay otherwise you can record them as approved okay okay now we pass uh to the agenda old business uh so uh Rita you have the floor um this is the your fight plane management resolution um that you uh submitted last month that underwent some discussion so do you want to uh do you uh do we have uh an amendment to uh I mean do we have uh let's have a discussion but do I have a motion to bring this up we need to have two we need to have a motion I I I saw um commissioner Dish's hand okay seconded okay um I'll I'll approve of uh of this uh of visiting
062this um resolution please raise your hand any objections say say no verbally okay so let's begin the discussion all right so um I would like to just make a couple of statements beforehand and um uh and thanks for uh accepting this for discussion you all um the goal is to support public health and safety for all with respect to flood risk um and the goal is also to complement the UDC um uh ordinance that has been designed and and presented to us on September 24th it's an overlay district and again the goal will protect the health and safety of the public as well as property um it's based on flood plane mapping and um the the idea that of the of the resolution that I'm bringing is in its complement um that it wouldn't add
063perme impermeable surfaces in the flood Fringe area is so primarily the um UDC ordinance and I'm hoping that Jerry Hancock who's here um will chime in as needed um the flood French I'm sorry the ordinance that he is presenting uh focuses primarily on the flood way where water would move during the a flood event and so what I've introduced is um protection of existing open areas that do not have structures on them that are in the flood Fringe on the edges of the floodway um it would not um the goal is also to um have Jerry as the expert in our area um be directed to look at making the ordinance that he's worked on so far A little more stringent to provide more protection I do not have the qualifications to um make the
064suggestions that would be needed and so um the we would be asking Council to direct him as the our local expert um so with that introduction that's that's where I am um okay have may I ask just if if um the commission numbers have had a chance to read what was circulated you had nods okay all right thanks okay uh commissioner dish yeah okay Steve if I call on people because it he can't see them yeah yeah I can't see all right here we go all right did I understand correctly that um commissioner Gib Randle had submitted comments if we could maybe have those before we launch on a discussion since she would have voted on it at Planning Commission and so there might be some help for us there I'd be happy to share
065those um she sent me an email and I'll quote um from that so you hear it for btim directly from her but I'd like to preface it um with the comment that um as I think most of you know if not all of you Shannon is a practicing landscape architect and so um she would in effect um be interpreting um whatever is finally passed and having to comply with it um and she would be Consulting um with her clients as well as um interfacing with the city so what she has written is quote um in terms of the flood plane I have to slide my um view of all of you over um my concern is that the word Construction in the third resolved Clause is too vague as it could mean regrading a site
066putting a pathway or building a rain Garden if all excuse me all if which may all of which may be perfectly appropriate in the flood way or flood Fringe I think what we are concerned about our buildings um that's the essence of of her comments that one or two sentences and I think just while I have the floor um I support that I think we need to be be clear so that people like Shannon um so that um any designer that's looking um at um what is what what is finally passed by council is really explicit in terms of what is allowed and what isn't allow thank you thanks John um I think that's a good comment thanks so I would suggest inserting the word building before the word Construction in the resolution uh in
067which section last resolve last resolve or possibly construction of buildings how about the construction of anything that increases flood risk or decreases you know in any decreases um resilience I I I don't know the language because I'm not really good at writing ordinances but or anything like that but um there are probably a number of things that could be built there besides buildings that would create a a greater flood risk um and that's what we were trying to mitigate here and I just want to say as a climate scientist that precipitation is increasing in this region we're confident will continue doing that as well the intensity of the precipitation this is why we're seeing more flooding in for example Detroit and on farmlands and things like that this is Rec connected no doubt to the
068high lake levels in The Lakes but it also um is exacerbated by the fact in States like Michigan and communities like ours a lot of the flood infrastructure and planning was designed by by good Engineers for a climate that no longer exists and that uh I hope that we also at some future time as a city really take a closer look at our storm water uh systems with climate change in mind because otherwise we're going to have other surprises this is a very good ordinance or suggestion here because it is being proactive in reducing our risks so the definition of oops sorry I'm I'm sorry no um I think first I guess commissioner P did you want to say anything in addition to close no that's all I just I just think buildings are not
069the main thing here is let's put some language in that prevents anything that's going to exacerbate flood risk okay like all right um how about uh Chris Graham so the definition currently in the in the code is for building is any structure having a roof supported by columns or walls or intended for shelter housing or enclosure of any individual animal or Process Equipment Goods or materials of any kind when separated by division walls from the ground up without openings each portion of such structure shall be deemed a separate building um okay it I think that if we let me just try this on you all if we um reference buildings and then some some uh definition as opposed to putting that level of detail in this resolution um my goal is really to to get
070information back to allow Jerry to proceed with some more detailed work which sounds like what you just said Chris to me um well you can use you can use the capital letter building in the language and then it applies that definition immediately so all right thanks all right I see um JN cart yeah could you restate what is the is it the the final resolved paragraph talking about where is the reference to construction um it says resolve middle then can we repurpose the language from the sixth whereas Clause that mentions prohibit new structures oh my goodness re one two three four five six and that probably is building construction there as well actually the the advantage prohibit new structures from being built in floodway areas is that what you're saying John C um I think
071we probably should use the word buildings because structures and and this is where I'm probably need help from Jerry structures could be like a fence I I agree um and in the ordinance that's proposed we use buildings because that's the intent is to prevent buildings particularly that are going to be occupied by people and there's some other language that gets at um structures and more of a performance uh measure like by not not allowing things that cause a rise and um so I think buildings is the word is the word the term you're looking for and just like Chris said as long as you capitalize it there's already definition in the UDC for that okay all right so in terms of of answering question on John coward then it would be to substitute instead of
072the word construction prohibit new buildings in the flood Fringe areas um y I don't see him I think he stepped away oh there you are I'm sorry John K did you did that address I can't hear you sorry I was kicked out and then brought back in so I okay after I Ed my suggestion all right um did you want to add anything to it if we if we just put the word buildings in the last resolved clause in substitution for construction that's fine thank you okay all right any other hands comments John mki picking up um I don't have it right in front of me I'm looking at all of you but I think John said the the word structure is used um early in a resolved clause and as was pointed out structure
073could could also um apply to that we we don't have a problem with so maybe want to use buildings in buildings in there too I agree okay thanks John yep that's the six whereas yes I found that so yep um all right and um I want to call out a couple of things that I would like to change um and if I need to show my screen I can um in talking with Jerry that I would like to substitute in that six whereas instead of um the building code I would like to substitute the words state law so it would be whereas the city of Van Arbor has developed a proposed flood plane management overlay zoning district and regulations and revisions to the unified development code to reflect requirements of the state law that apply
074to floodway areas and prohibit new buildings now from being built in floodway areas that sound okay okay and one last one that I would like to introduce which is um in the sorry I'm not going to go through the the second last whereas um in review of some of the Housing and Urban Development information um I found some some little wiggle room about development and um instead of the word prohibits I'd like to use the word restricts restricts so it would read the Federal Department of Housing and Urban Development HUD restricts use of funds for construction and flood Fringe areas because of the risk to health and safety okay all right um I'm open for any additional comments and I appreciate these um yeah I'm back now hi Steve hey Rita so um yeah for
075me the U it looks like I I know there was some concern about uh about um this may be affecting council's um consideration of this um and that there's some deadline coming up early this year so um Jerry can you make any comments about that um yeah as we're going through the process for this ordinance I really didn't have a deadline but all of a one popped up um every five years the community rating system um communities in the community rating system get um get rescored and I didn't I I figured we were about a year out from that but I was informed that that it's coming right up and have now um been scheduled for our for our rescoring for February 18th um so if I don't have the ordinance to together by February
07618th I could be delayed by a year to a year and a half from getting the points we expect from the ordinance so I'm hoping that the ordinance moves ahead so that we can can get those points sooner than and later so so what date do you think you need council's approval to to make that deadline um well right now it's scheduled for first reading on this December 7th and second reading on December 21st and then all ordinances take about 10 days to go into effect so wiggle room I really only have one or two meetings at the most to delay it to to meet this new deadline I mean I literally got the meeting got scheduled about a week ago okay and um and my understanding is that that there aren't really that many
077Parcels affected here that's right actually Steve asked me a few questions that prompted me to do a little more um and analysis in the last day or two with help of our GIS people um and so the the change that's um would be proposed in the third resolve um uh I had guessed that it would maybe affect about 10 parcels and when I went through it um it was eight there are eight Parcels that would um basically would render them unbuildable uh that is the the that that would be the worst possible outcome I would say they the the biggest impact of of changing ordinance um just to give you a a comparison I went I went through and did the same analysis for the ordinance that's proposed and there are three Parcels that are
078are would be rendered unbuildable by the by the proposed ordinance so we' be adding eight more to that are these all single family properties single family lots no they're not they're they're a mixture be because the ordinance that's proposed uh would would prohibit new bu new buildings in the flood way and the resolution using the word buildings would apply to you know residential or commercial so I looked at both I didn't just looked at look at residential um so yeah total total of three with the current proposal and with the change there will be eight so that just gives you like a perspective of you know we're not talking about a lot of Bill not a lot of parcels in the city that are going to be negatively affected okay all right so I have
079a question Jerry um in terms of of um implementing this resolution into incorporating it into what you you've done so far how much work is that for you if you've got a council meeting coming up on Monday is is this a doable uh well once the once the ordinance approved well first of all if if I were to in incorporate the change that that's suggested in the third resolve we would have to go back to Planning Commission because it's a different concept got it so it's not it's not just um an additional council meeting that's because it's a different idea okay my preference would be approve what's what's proposed now come up with a revision to that and go back through the process okay okay so in other words so so yeah maybe a better
080course of action would be to submit a separate resolution on this that would be taken up later I'm trying I'm trying to feel my way here that uh that there really it seems like there might not be enough time right now to go through the Planning Commission and then go and then and then go to the for Council consideration is that correct there is some risk there I have a process question um my understanding is that Council um often gets um resolutions and language that are modified actually then in Council meetings and um my opinion is that it would be a Pity that um the the clarification that we're offering here um couldn't be considered by Council and um modified in council with by by council with our guidance without having to make a rework
081Loop so to speak going all the way back through Planning Commission I don't know if for example council member Griswald could comment on that but it seems to me we're essentially advising Council to to potentially tweak this without having to go all the way back and make an entire rework that seems reasonable to me based on how Council has functioned I don't know if there are any specific requirements uh because it involves the Planning Commission or you're saying anything that would involve the Planning Commission we would save for a a second resolution at some future date is that correct U that's what I was proposing as an alternative if okay so just minor minor tweaks at Council that that seems realistic to me and um given that we've got a tight deadline I definitely support
082that okay um council member dish has her hand raised electronically that how do you do that uh you click on participants and it gives you the option um so uh I think I have a a a process question because as I read this um this resolution the order of the resolved Clauses are there's the first one that just says you support the overlay District the second one recommends that city council approve the proposed flood plane management overlay zoning district and regulations ordinance so the second resolve Clause says approve this one that has already been drawn up drawn up and then it says and then please request staff or instruct I don't know actually which we actually do to strengthen that um that ordinance so so I'm a little I'm a little Lo I'm a little
083bit lost exactly about so this is in this ordinance wants Council to approve it and then change it in such a way that actually it has to go back to Planning Commission so um I am not sure if this ordinance completely makes sense to me because I'm not sure if these changes are so extensive that we can approve the ordinance and then ask for this kind of change I'm totally happy to do that but it was something that confused me when I read the ordinance yeah that's kind of where I was coming from so um I think um so Kathy seems to think that uh it's okay to do this within Council during the readings I'm a little sorry here's my hand yeah Chris I'm a little bit bothered about FASTT tracking this um I
084presume there are private owners of the five additional properties that become unbuildable M and there's economic impact on them and I maybe that's okay maybe that's not okay but it ought to be carefully addressed and yeah it seems like a due process question you know yeah I I think Jerry's suggestion that we um recraft this resolution for our next meeting and then put it in the hopper for a revision a later revision to go through the process and get this one that is on the table done and signed and sealed and delivered to the council promptly would be the best course so what you're saying Chris is that we should keep the first two resolve clause and then um and then put the third for a second yeah I'm sure the council would like to
085hear from us and that'd be a good way of doing it and then do a new resolution that requests up the up the line that more work be done as possible for staff to do it okay or I guess an alternative would be to say um for the third resolv Clause the environmental commission recommends that city council consider strengthening the flood plane management overlay zoning District to prohibit new construction but that would leave it up to the council's decision and they could choose to defer it or not get the suggestion on the table right away okay um what do what do other people think Carrie has her hand I don't think you have to change the language of the the last resolv seems to say that actually say it again it does seem to say
086it seems to be approve what you got on the table but please ask for another process to do a minor or maybe it's a little more than minor Amendment seems to be asking that yeah that's quite correct but but we do change construction to building though we do change construction to building okay okay I'm good with that yeah I just meant the last resolved Clause I think it doesn't I don't think you need to tweak it at all except for building um but what about building yeah I meant leave it in are you leave it in yeah yeah but change the building to building construction of building or building I certainly appreciate the the feedback from you all and so yeah let's My Wish for this is to um provide something that helps the city
087be safer that's where we want to be and if the sequence of events is one that that takes a a little more time I'm okay but I would not want want it to take a lot more time um and that that would be my main concern how long have you been working on this Jerry 2007 yeah 2007 there we go 13 years long enough for maps to change okay well let's see all right so okay we we've had comments about I think the only thing that's still open is this third resolved clause and what I hear are two Alternatives is that we just leave it as it is um but uh there is some concern that it's asking for an action that's related to passing the current flood plane overlay zoning District ordinance so could
088we go do you mind if we go through them in sequence just can we just say of the three resoles is that okay Council trying to get recognized okay I see that I'm so I'm um I actually uh I definitely agree with Miss Slavic that the way it's written says we want Council to pass the district and then afterwards we want some more modifications yeah we want them to consider instructing more modifications this is how the um short-term rental ordinance was too except that it's delayed in being implemented until that happens and that's not what we're asking for because we don't want to miss this deadline so I'm just wondering I'm not not afraid that this ordinance will slow down the process that Mr Hancock is in but I feel like maybe we need some
089I don't know if we need advice from planning staff or someone to let us know if if this is feasible I mean can we ask for this change after the district is passed and I yeah absolutely ordinance at any time it can be amended any time right is that correct Kathy Kathy the theoretically it can again unless there's any uh constraints from the master planning process and I I don't think this is related to the master planning process but no that that's all I know about uh maybe Jerry Hancock could comment on it since he works with it every day right you can we can we can make amendments to to code any time the concern was kind of like a Chris brought up I mean you want to go through the the public review
090process with this Con that Concept in mind so that people know what they're what the impact will be um and since that since I didn't presented that way at any of the meetings up till this this point that so it's really not the question on the table for for Council right now so that's why it seems to me it you'd want it to go back that this concept to go back through the the review process so that the public understands what's proposed okay I see Bob need them I I think uh what Mr Hancock said is exactly right and I I think um we we could maybe uh slightly tweak the third resolved to make that clear because the way it's worded now it's requesting staff to take action which to me implies that maybe
091the changes would come before Council considers it um but if it read something like environmental commission recommends that city council consider strengthening the flood plate Management overl District then that kind of implies that it's been passed and we're going to go back and look at it again I like that yeah yeah I like that okay is it up to Rita to get the language in Toto here polished and ready to move on if we do you trust me yeah yeah I think that's good okay um wow thank you so you all know I want you to know that uh this the first time I've written one of these so um thank you for um tolerating my stumbles um it's all good it's all good so so Rita um so so Rita normally what we do
092is we just go through and review the Amendments that have been made and then we will have a motion to approve it as amended uhuh so and I'm I'm uh I'm suppose that these were all considered friendly amendments I agre very friendly we've only clarified things and so the first thing I noted was um you're going to change um any any word that says structure or construction to building correct and then um and then there was a minor uh suggestion about the uh [Music] about the next to the last where us clause about the HUD um yep that one I have yeah prohibits to restricts correct and then um and then there's the U Amendment to the third resolve Clause correct and uh the sixth whereas Clause will include it will reference state law instead
093of building code and it will include include buildings instead of structures yep okay right so um I believe I have that so um I could um do the word processing behind the scenes and you could all could consider continue and we could come back or we could vote on this how would you like to proceed oh I think in the past we've just voted on the amended we voted to accept the Amendments and then we vote to accept the resolution as amended okay you're getting good well thanks Chris so so uh do we have a motion to accept these amendments to this resolution so move okay Chris do we have a second [Applause] second Slavic raise her hand okay so um so Chris and then let's just say carry so um I'll I'll approve of
094these amendments as discussed please raise your hand hi um any any dissensions or abstentions okay it passes the Amendments passed unanimously so do I have a motion to vote on the um amended resolution so move second Chris again and Bob Needum so um let's see all who are in favor say uh raise your hands he I see all hands raised okay so the the resolution passes unanimously okay gigantic gold star for Jerry yeah star forry Jerry thank you I think Rita deserves one too so let's um so Rita why don't you distribute the amended document now um just to just so everybody has a plan to look at it later uh like now now um I'm not sure everybody has a chance this really won't take long for me to do so so why don't
095you just email it to all of us so we have a copy of it as amended and then U we should have like uh maybe 24 not even 24 hours let's just say um if people want to make changes they need to do it by let's say what 10:00 tomorrow morning I think that would be a good practice and respond to I guess respond to me if that's okay yeah and respond to you what's the deadline for the legar for council meeting Monday probably 10 o'clock tomorrow works yeah it probably does I think it's um yep we got to get it in Rita as well yeah to get in Rita what you should do is instruct Galen to to send it once you've heard from people at 10 o'clock tomorrow send it to ask gayen
096to have to send it to uh through the channel to get it on the council agenda uh okay and just so y'all know I am putting in um red font for changes okay okay let's see do you mind if we move on to uh the next item on the agenda do you mind if we move on to the sorry yes please go ahead oh okay all right well thanks Rita so the next item on the agenda thank you is Kathy Griswald U wants to discuss a resolution um that involves uh um that involves uh Landscaping in the U you know the lawn extensions and um so so Kathy you have the floor okay thank you um I did send out an email earlier today to the environmental commission email list I don't know if that
097actually goes to the Commissioners um I received it oh okay um and I want to thank uh Rita for talking to me about this and I think I was able to to clarify what my intentions were and I have been concerned about chapter 40 since 1997 since we're talking about how far back things go uh and when council member Haner suggested um a minor revision I thought that might be the time to do some additional work on it however um after reflecting on uh where we stand right now in terms of the a20 plan and the uh Vision zero based Transportation plan that's coming I think that rather than discuss or and ask for an approval of this resolution I recommend that we do not approve this resolution that we send it back to the
098Transportation Commission that's where it was referred from and they can refer it back to council with a recommendation not to approve and in place of that I would recommend that we um ask Council to form a working group with at least one member of the Transportation Commission and one member of the environmental commission along with staff participation and that we look at chapter 40 to really bring it up to date so it is consistent with our safety and sustainability goals uh chapter 40 makes reference to turf grass and the height of turf grass and we really and Christopher Graham can can add to this uh but I think that we should be educating the community members about other options and um we're not doing that and so um another opportunity is that with uh Vision
099zero they talk about the six e and two of those e are education and encouragement and so we should look at chapter 40 and see where we can provide more education and more encouragement within this area so again I I think it needs to be updated and I think the focus needs to be safety and sustainability so I'm willing answer questions at this time okay could could you mention what the particular sticking points are in the existing chapter 40 language um yes there is inconsistency right now uh when staff after council member Hanner uh made the recommendation for some changes in um I think it was on private property then a staff member went through and read the ordinance and realized there were inconsistencies regarding um the use of the term lawn extension in one
100place it was deleted um just wording about in one place it referred to a vegetation 8 feet from the uh the road surface and another one it was 8 feet vertical height from the road surface so a lot of them were minor but I think that this is an opportunity for staff to clean up the language and then to again include more education and encouragement and another area is the site distance triangle and that's the area at um at intersections that allows people to be able to see around the corner not only to see an oncoming vehicle but more importantly to see a pedestrian or a cyclist and right now we're making a reference to some federal standards that are in um a manual that is not available online to the public and costs $2
101or $300 and so the only way to even get ref you know to get access to that is to go down to City Hall and look at it and so I think that this uh could be a little more user friendly um another area is a reference to planned natural areas and we are already had one lawsuit because someone had a natural area on the side of their property but someone else complained that it wasn't planned it was a unplanned Natural Area and so the city went to court and we lost because it would be very hard I think to differentiate between a planned Natural Area and an unplanned I have read pardon me oh yeah that's Clause 3 three Co 16 yeah so yeah I mean I have red twig dogwood that have grown
102I have a a blue spruce tree that just popped up I have many uh red bud trees and so should I differentiate between the ones that that you know just grew naturally versus the ones that I planted I I don't think so so that's another area where we know that the language would not hold up in court and so we need to modify it okay Kathy thanks um um are there any questions for Kathy other than mine oh there are okay Christopher your hands Christoper you're muted this fils up in a resolution I went through Council in August or so to review this ordinance yes okay um and the document that we have here is the amended ordinance or is that the existing ordinance the existing ordinance okay um yes we can work on it
103we'll talk about a natural features committee meeting on Monday um uh one other concern to add to this I had a client in the last years of her life who had a has had for decades a native plant front yard on a cldis hack um and a neighbor complained about uh nii uh daisies and a blue bell and oh okay called the city's zoning person and the city's zoning person came back out and told this woman to cut the weeds oh yeah I was Furious oh oh she yeah I I think we want to eliminate any like that I I don't think we want to differentiate between a weed and a non- weed I mean well your current ordinance does yes yeah and it's important that the people who are implementing it are trained yes
104I agree um my client would not let me debate or I would have gotten deep into this with the ordinance enforcing person um um but because she as I say was very weak and getting to the end of her life um but uh this is a it really is a matter of Education not just for the public but for our own staff and how they interpret these things okay that's a good point yeah yeah um so Kathy what's your ask is to get a to do you want the commission to pass a resolution today to um to send it back to or what's your ask here um and John had his hand up I don't know if he has a question first sure thank you um it's clarification maybe something Steve is asking for too
105your email referenced R20 342 which isn't on the agenda but we were given the chapter 40 and I'm not certain that's just that's not a resolution so I'm trying to understand what action you're you're seeking here you mentioned vote no but I don't see that resolution in our agenda oh okay um it's not there and that resolution was asking um for a change to allow turf grass to be 18 in instead of just 12 in and that's what started this whole process um and so the re it went to the Transportation Commission and then the Transportation Commission referred it to the environmental commission just for a recommendation a general recommendation so I guess my ask would be that the environmental commission and I don't know if it needs to be a a resolution or just
106a memo item that uh we recommend um a no vote on the minor changes to chapter 40 and we ask for a complete review of chapter 40 with this working group um but I didn't want to complicate things so sorry let me back up for a minute so my thought was just to to return it to the Transportation Commission and then I will bring forward a separate resolution regarding the working group in early 2021 because I I didn't want to try to modify what's on the table right now does that does that make sense John I understand kind of what you're seeking to do but I'm not certain what action we should take as a commission tonight yeah I'm I'm puzzled myself I I appreciate the effort to clean up the language here but I'm
107not certain what what we need to do tonight um well uh why don't I offer a resolution that the environmental commission just refer the resolution back to the Transportation Commission with a recommendation that it be that Council vote no on any further work on chapter 40 pending review by a working group with that has one volunteer from the environmental commission and one from the Transportation Commission we could add that or I can bring that forward as a resolution in early 2021 but I'm I'm fine with that Stephen well we could um it's a very short resolution okay I'm not sure what more we need than that okay that seems fine to me we could we could just it just takes one where as Clause whereas um there's ambiguities in the existing chapter 40 or be
108it resolved that uh the environmental commission uh wants to refer it refer any chapter 40 changes back to the Transportation Commission and Council should not vote on it until there's been it's been worked on by the a joint working committee consisting of um a environmental commissioner and a transportation commissioner and then whatever whoever staff people need to be involved oh okay thank you yes I I apologize for not writing up the resolution I just put basic the information in the email so okay I would I would second that resolution um well we need to have a first we need to have a first one first uh does anybody I was counting you but okay okay I'll first it all right I'll I'll write it up I'll write it up later okay thank you you do
109the same thing as we did with this amended uh we can do the same thing that I proposed with this amended uh um floodway flood plane management overlay District resolution okay okay uh Steve uh yeah this is on the table of the environmental Commission because of a resolution passed by the council asking the environmental commission to address this matter whatever the matter is right Kathy's asking for a different direction and in my view she should be asking the council for a different direction to amend its resolution and ask the Transportation Commission to assign someone in in other words uh Kathy's asking for more Cooperative or collaborative discussion apparently this problem was came from the Transportation f folks to the council and then the council put it in environmental commission's lab in August and so here
110can I just say it initiated from a council resolution from council member Haner and then I recommended that it go to the Transportation Commission but the council sent it to us yes so you would like it to go so you would you really need to deal with the council and ask them to send it to the Transportation Commission not with us it's not our duty to redirect their request okay yeah I think that's a great point I don't think we have the authority to refer it back to Transportation I I don't like their idea so I hope we are able to get involved but yeah no thanks thanks a lot Chris thanks a lot Chris for that clarification so okay the other way to go here is to let us get involved as the council
111requested and and we can contact the transportation people and say see what their issue is and and work it through I mean we don't have to go back to the council with it but at the moment that's the instruction from the council is that environmental commission deal [Music] with Okay so let's see let's see what the proper course of action would be it would be that um um so I wish I had the email in front of me I think find it for you Steve okay I think what do you so Chris what do you recommend here um well I don't know what the problem is the the we dealt with this ordinance um not very long ago and and I did read it today and it's it's generally good um I if the only
112issue the transportation people were was Raising was that the height of plants in the street lawn should be 12 inches maxed and I disagree with that but we can discuss it and of course it depends on where and what the plants are but uh okay well one of the the issues is that uh a commissioner and I don't know who the commissioner was asked some questions of staff and staff provided responses and that information to my knowledge is not online it's only I was given a hard copy of it and staff's recommendation is all vegetation should be 18 inches and that would include anything growing in the lawn extension and I that is not going to be acceptable so I was just trying to um stop this process because it seems to be sequential and
113bring forward another resolution that would focus on updating chapter 40 to be consistent with our sustainability and safety programs okay all right so it seems like this resolution should be to council okay right to reconsider this what we what are we going to do say no we don't want to do what you asked us to do uh yes that's correct that it it needs a more comprehensive review and who would do that um a member of the Transportation Commission a member of the environmental commission and staff has appropriate with expertise in the new Transportation plan that hasn't been formally adopted yet as well as the 820 plan well then I would suggest going back to the council and asking them to amend the resolution that was passed in August yeah yeah that seems like the
114like the proper course of action in my limited knowledge Kathy okay okay now but we can um I think I think we're all in general agreement you know with your with your request so um you know Chris is volunteer to bring it up for a discussion in the natural features committee where wherein I think we'll probably find a unteer uh to work with the um Transportation Commission so that's okay I don't I don't see any uh I don't see any U you know any uh any obstacle to this um so so what should we do here should we just um should we send a memo or something like that to city council I feel like we should write something back you know that but and a memo may be sufficient I I don't think and
115and one of the issues is that we have five new members on city council who don't have a history of this other than maybe Lisa you do because you've looked at it as a member of the environmental commission um yeah so a memo I think would be fine okay it would be extremely helpful to have whatever documentation was presented to the council to trigger this request to study this chapter I'm I okay so Kathy as chair as chair why don't you send me uh the details about what council what what the council resolution States okay and then I will draft a Meo and I will just s around theal commission um for the general comments and then I will forward that okay I did FR I did go and look at the resolution passed in
116August and it's not helpful to illuminate what is driving this and could I just note that I didn't receive the email so uh Council member's email so oh okay maybe you're not on the I may not yet be on I'll send it to you that's great and I just wanted to make sure that someone puts me on the email okay so given the discussion Kathy what do you think would be appropriate I will send the initial resolution with an explanation of why it was sent to council and it has to do with Al allowing turf grass to grow to 18 Ines instead of just 12 I'll explain that and then I think that as a result of that if you as chair of the environmental Commission can simply send an email to council that that
117would be sufficient and I don't want to take up a lot of the commission's time this evening Li did you have a your hand this is an aord oh yeah sorry I just while we're on the topic um I also didn't get the email and I think I might also not be yet on the email list I think correct we've we've been working on um updating the list so we'll get on it so by definition tur is is like Michigan Stadium or the soccer Fielder an High School it never would be allowed to get to 12 inches it's not turf grass anymore what are we talking about yeah there's yeah yeah there's a lot of ambiguity here so um all right so let's leave it at this um I think we we will not have
118an official action but what Kathy will do is send the council resolution to um everybody so they can everybody on the environmental commission so they can look at it and then I will draft an email to council and send that as well and ask for U people to um um suggest amendments or to um or to sign on to it so we have a collective say so we would have a presumably we would have a majority of the Commissioners just signed the memo electronically and then send it to council what do you think Chris I mean John and John msky oh I'm unmuted I think that makes sense yeah yeah okay and just for clarification I'm I'm looking at um at the ordinance right now and it doesn't say turf grass and I'm probably using
119that term along with a lawn but the the phrase is no vegetation shall be permitted at a height greater than 12 Ines trees bushes and other Woody plants on private property shall be maintained and then they start talking about not blocking a sidewalk so it's the the language itself is is not real clear okay yeah no no there's a lot of ambigu in that and and what frequently happens is one neighbor will report another neighbor because they're upset about something else and then City staff who really don't have expertise in this area will come out and you know and and issue a potential fine if work isn't done yeah yeah it's worth a clarification and some education about this okay thank you so so I'll do that okay so Kathy you first thing is you'll
120send this Council resolution to the environmental commission yes distribution list and I will look at it and then I will draft an email to council and I will send that draft to the Commissioners and then people can make comments on it and then hopefully we'll get enough people to sign on it and then we'll send it to uh send it to council and how do I send it to councel I'll have to send it through the staff I think there used to be a a switch that worked on the city website that allowed you to communicate with one click of one button to every council member but that's been closed down for quite a while you have to I don't think so there's still still there yeah it's there work okay so so I'll just
121send the email to the I'll just send the email to the council members okay okay so they'll U so they should be able to understand what the problem is and how we propose to resolve it okay and you'll be on list too okay Kathy yes thank you thanks a lot um any more discussion of this item okay well considering the hour you know um I wanted to um include as new business our annual housekeeping review of um working group purpose and structure the review of our 2020 accomplishments and a discussion of 2021 goals and a discussion of the annual report to council now it's becoming clear to me that we will require to allow sufficient time for this I think considering I'm calling for another special meeting sometime between now and uh the January 28th
122meeting so I think this would be uh I think this is the way this is the only way this is going to happen with a with a with a robust and complete discussion so um I'm hoping to do that um I would like to everybody else's opinion on that you know we just went through two special meetings on the Gman resolution on the plume resolution so um so I don't want to be burdening everybody with too much work but I think this is an important item housekeeping item that deserves some U some time so I would hope to contain it to of course under two hours I I I I endorse the idea um but I would recommend maybe that we hold it as a working session so we eliminate a lot of the formality
123of having to go through a bunch of stuff that really isn't all that necessary um and that we just have a good open discussion that would then prepare something that we could then um essentially if it needed approval that we could approve then in a subsequent meeting oh yeah I'm sorry John that's what I meant it would be a working session not an official meeting okay so um if everybody's agreeable any objections when when would that be Stephen well tell you what I'll use that when I'll use that when to meet app to try to see what people's availability is okay and then I'll see when everybody's available and just pick a few dates okay and uh hopefully people will respond soon enough that they don't fill up their calendars in between time okay all
124right so I will I'm going to table this to the discussion of our housekeeping items here one through four to a working session that I'll schedule um start I'll send out the A2 meet thing tomorrow morning okay and when to need application so um the next item on the agenda are reports from committees um let's see we don't we don't really have committees we have working groups so let's start with natural features hi uh yes here I am am I muted no um we've been working through health issues and holiday issues and uh the complexities of rather significant changes to the UDC um I just printed another batch of really significant step up in that process this afternoon um I'm hoping that we meet and a kind of joint the committee writing the Amendments and
125the whole natural features committee Monday noon um which is a different time for both of those meetings and maybe we can get some people that haven't uh been able to come to one or the other um I should report that our proposal to seize was accepted um not not that we've been chosen by students to do the work yet but uh that at least it will be in the hopper for their client project Fair um on January 26th and uh Jason Talent myself and I like Lily's picture that's a nice dog uh uh Jason Talent myself uh Tiffany and Molly um the Public Works director um will be on the zoom session with the students that are interested in our proposal and try to get them excited so keep your fingers crossed okay Chris yeah
126uh there's more on the list but it's getting okay um all right thanks Chris um as far as Solid Waste is concerned we had a meeting um earlier this evening and um um we our goals for next year are going to be continuing the uh con construction and demolition recycling ordinance um I'm uh working on getting putting together a pilot project involving several construction firms here to to just do to a pilot to try to see what works and what doesn't um a major barrier is um having available space on site to do sorting you know at the construction site to do sorting and also the labor you know the construction business is a pretty high-risk low profit um Enterprise in general averaged over everything so uh there'll be a lot of concerns about um
127extra extra costs that might come on to a construction project so I intend to thoroughly get this through the stakeholders I've identified a number of stakeholders both in um you know in all aspects of the recycling of U construction and demolition waste we have um we have a example template ordinances from the west coast to work with um the city of San Diego in particular has had a construction and demolition ordinance for some 12 years now so um there's a lot to work with and I'm hoping that by the end of next year um we will have like an ordinance proposal for construction and demolition waste recycling um the other item is a zero uh waste planning so that part is going to be led by Lisa dish and so we're looking forward we're building
128a a team from the community as well as from Commissioners to to try to develop a zero waste plan for the community and so that's uh that's all I have to say for the solid waste working group at this point um so let's see right now we only have those two groups so let's pass on to other commissions Shannon's not here neither is Mike Apple I believe Mike are you here no he has not joined us so um so planning and Parks um how about energy commission John just briefly I didn't get any specific communication from Shannon um about planning um but what I can share is the energy commission did get a document from planning um out laying out um sort of its plans um for uh things going to council as well as
129for next year and um I could share that um through Steve or gayen with um this group um but what I thought would this group might being interested in is um it indicated that um revisions to the sign ordinance or an update um is I think still targeted for a meeting in December it wasn't specific even though other uh um ordinances were given specific dates specifically the evb Readiness ordinance is supposed to be on the agenda on the 21st um a solar height exemption also on the 21st a solar accessory structure um ordinance revision also on the 21st and then the an arbor lighting ordinance which is a brand new ordinance um is targeted for consideration by Council um now in the first quarter of 21 um the two solar issues are going to be
130discussed in the energy commission meeting next Tuesday um as far as our last meeting um there really really wasn't anything of uh consequential so I would um just leave it at that okay thank you John may I ask a question yes the an arbor lighting ordinance is that the Dark Skies ordinance yes oh okay great yep and some of the things that are still I think up for consideration is are holiday lighting um and you know to what degree do we allow that and for what duration of time um there was some language in there but I think there's a couple of things like that that planning felt still needs to be worked on um so that that's yes that's this that's the dark sky so to speak and it has obviously then environmental impacts
131as well as safety impacts like glare and F and things like that as um yeah thank you John um well congratulations on all that that's quite a lot of U quite a lot of as You' gotten through in the energy commission okay crors do some of these came through planning like I mean they had been discussed before in energy but the final resolution like um the height exemption and this accessory structure those were dealt with primarily by by planning so okay credit well thanks Shannon for us as well okay so um Council Council update Kathy uh I don't believe I have any thing maybe uh Lisa does I don't because we haven't met for such a long time and I realize now this group meets monthly but so I guess it's just that the the
132solar height exemption went through on first reading and it'll come up for a second reading um and uh the and the Transit oriented development um in instruction to planning to work on that was passed and is in as is in the queue with planning now and nothing else is jumping out at me I could be forgetting something significant yeah I have a question for both of you I mean um you know we had two special meetings about the Gil about the fourth consent judgment about the Gilman plume has what's C all done with that so far we are still um so there's going to be another hearing the 11th through the 13th of January in front of the judge and this is a chance for the city to prepare briefs and that is where we
133are right now is we are taking advice from the attorneys and offering them comment uh for how we would like to see the Judgment changed oh okay all right good so it's in the cities sorry Kathy um yes I just want to say I did receive uh a call from Tom Crawford at the beginning of this meeting and he just wanted to share some confidential information and and let me know that we will be having a closed session um next Monday and then Council received an email regarding that shortly thereafter so there there is work that's continuing to be done um the letter to the EPA uh of of course is being coordinated with the other interveners sure of course and okay um you Steve I just wanted to mention um you all may have
134heard last night that the wash County Commission passed a resolution in support of of going to the EPA and going to the governor with a letter of concurrence for going to the EPA it's a big big vote Yes okay yeah and I believe the other interveners are considering this as well like sco Township and an orber Township I don't know about the h River wersh Council but yeah okay alrighty any more any more uh any more any more from Council I no okay so um now we devolved to the chair report and I really don't have anything to say um except that uh you know they're in in light of the a20 efforts um couple of my neighbors in my in the block here where I live have put up solar panels on their houses
135in the last um couple of months however you know that the uh DT the the state law that's been mandating a 1% cap as a minimum as a as a as a minimum 1% cap will be exceeded if not now then within the next month or two so this is something that uh I would urge everybody to contact their representative and the uh you know and the Public Service Commission about getting DTE to either um to uh to voluntarily raise its cap temp temporarily there is a bill in the state legislature to eliminate it entirely in the state senate and um my understanding is that it will come up it might come up for a floor vote during the lame duck session and that there is a fair broad bipartisan consensus on it but the
136more people hear from their constituents the better so um you know I don't have I don't have that uh Senate bill number in front of me but it's part of the power Michigan forward package you know that was um sponsored by furin and um Yousef rabi so um Consumers Energy is already voluntarily um said that they would raise their minimum from 1% to 2% because they're under the same uh problem but DT has not said anything so far they may not do anything voluntarily and this bill may not pass so um I would urge everybody to consider contacting both the Public Service Commission and your representatives about it to get that cap raised okay okay that's all I have to say um so we move on to report from staff kayen you've been quiet lately
137okay uh in office of sustainability and Innovations we've had a good you know good run last few weeks um we kicked off our 820 uh ambassadors program the ninee program we have about 23 folks enrolled in that program um they kicked it off with equity on November 18th and yesterday was the introduction to uh sustainability climate change climate action and it's uh intersectionality so we uh got to talk a little bit more about Equity you know following up off our uh first session and uh next week uh we'll be covering electrification so it's been some really really good presentations uh we have a whole list of good speakers lined up uh in a ninee course for our residents or we're empowering residents you know to take charge and learn about carbon neutrality so uh I'll
138send out the invite if uh anybody wants to come you're welcome to sit in on it okay okay great thanks K and one last thing is next Wednesday at uh 7 pm and we go from 7 to 9: and it meets every Wednesday uh gayen my understanding is you got something like 60 people that indicated that they were interested and so um what people might want to know on this commission and if they're if they get an inquiry um it's it's not that we're discouraging people or anything like that it's just that we I think uh OSI wants to limit participation to a manageable group um and work its way down but for sure we want more more people to step up as as potential volunteers is that correct that is correct uh we did
139have a potential of 60 uh you know folks who wanted to participate we wanted 15 and ended up taking 23 you know and it's a you know it's wide you know all across the city you know it's dispersed um you know we got folks from different economic uh backgrounds cultures uh and we got a good representation of each ward in the city so you know those would be good folks to go out there and you know be the choir like you guys that's great news that's great news G yeah okay so the next item is action items so reita is going to um distribute that draft to the flood plane management resolution for a final comment or and then by 10 by 10 o'clock tomorrow morning um she will send it to through uh gayen
140and through the proper Channel to send it the approved amended resolution to council and I'm sending it right now it's out okay um I will um Kathy's going to send out this the council resolution on um chapter 40 code three chapter 40 to all of us and then I will email counsel draft an email to council and um basically requesting that it be sent back to a working group proposed to the trans Transportation environmental commission and uh and I will get that done by noon tomorrow and then um Stephen may I interrupt quickly um C there was also a referral to the disability commission so would it be acceptable to this group to add the disability commission to the working group no of course okay thank you okay sounds good all righty um and then
141let's see what else was there and then I'm going to set up a working session I'm going to send out an invitation so people can fill in their availability for a working session anytime between well now and uh really the 28th of January so we can decide I'll just decide whether we want to do it instead December or January and then get a little bit more fine-tuned okay maybe January would be better early January any comments about that okay okay so um we'll pass on the items for the next agenda um the one I have noted is um Missy's OSI resolution and supportive energy principles that'll be on the agenda for the next meeting um I was thinking we would focus on solid waste for the January 28th meeting um does anybody have any um
142items to uh propose for the next Agenda One Two Three okay John mki necessarily for the agenda but I guess um just for lack of a better place to address it um I I would like the commission um or at least um Steve you and gayen to um and with Rita address um how we um deal with um Commissioners who regularly um Miss meetings um without being real specific I think we've had one commissioner that's missed nearly every meeting this year and I know we had a number of uh people who applied for youth commission roles we've had other people in the community I think that would love to serve on a commission like this and um I think it's appropriate that we if if someone is not going to be filling a slot and
143contributing and having a voice and providing good technical input that we free that then up and recruit somebody else new and I so I I I don't know that we need to deal with that in the meeting but I'd like to see it be addressed I think we have some information in the bylaws about that there is there's three meetings yep just have to follow through and do it y y but um yeah yeah but I've heard that you need a lot of resignation first so um I'll I've been I've been making some inquiries but I will follow up with those and let everybody know offline what's going on okay good okay thank thank you Mr chair okay can I make one just sort of side comment um which is that I really appreciate the
144um statement of the um land Heritage that we had today um I I I really appreciate it and I hope we continue that for each of our meetings and I have a suggestion that maybe each of us would want to take a turn reading it to kind of personalize it and say those words yeah that's nice that's good yeah that's good yeah I've been debating whether to spend the time to do at every meeting in my you know I've been debating with myself but I think it's short enough that we can we can devote a minute to that okay I've often talked about Indians in an arbor being extraordinary stewards over about 10,000 years of our landscape um prior to the arrival of Europeans um we had multi-age very very large trees widely spaced almost
145no shrubs and a 300 species count herbaceous Flora on the floor oh yeah we had deer populations in very careful balance um we had an extraordinary Natural Area in our community and we are only barely trying to restore it and the Indians were extraordinarily good stewards yeah they paved Paradise and put up a parking lot there you go so um yeah so um you know and they have a fot memory of the megap funel extinction you know from thousands of years ago so I think that prompted a lot of serious discussion and considerations and probably changed their culture dramatically from when they're the first arrivals Gabby and Lily if they understand that line of lric that uh you inserted they that line yeah yeah sorry it's an old Joanie Mitchell song from the 70s a
146great one I know it the 70s old oh God I think it's from back then it may be the 60s even but I didn't want to be too radical I think it's 60s yeah probably is okay everybody well thank you our next schedule meeting is January 28th at 7 pm so uh we we uh we have our second opportunity for public commentary um I'm going to read a statement here um this is an opportunity for persons to speak for up to three minutes please call 1888 78899 and enter meeting ID number 5952 this information is also displayed on the meeting agenda and video feed City staff will select callers that have raised their hand one by one using the last three digits of your phone number in in order to electronically r raise your hand
147to indicate your desire to speak please press star9 on your phone you will hear an automated announcement that the host is allowing you to speak when speaking please move to a quiet area and mute any television or background sounds so that we may hear you clearly please state your name and address at the beginning of your comments and please be patient there is a up to a 30 second delay before the connection is established okay [Music] we do have a caller with their hand up great okay why don't we uh put them online alrighty that's going to be caller 464 caller 464 you are now allowed to talk oh hi um sorry my hand was raised from before it's not up anymore thank you though oh all right okay anybody else no okay let's give
148it a few more seconds okay I think we're past 30 seconds so um all right so I call this meeting adjourned thank you everybody at 9:23 p.m. bye