001e e e virus and to comply with orders issued by either the governor the Department of Health and Human Services Andor the Washington County Health Department we intend to conduct this meeting in a similar fashion to an inperson meeting however please be patient as technical difficulties may arise public comment will be via telephone only there are two opportunities to speak the first is on topics that we are not reviewing today and the second is after we've reviewed the applicants uh proposal today to speak at at either of the public comment opportunities please call 47 or 78899 and enter the meeting ID which is 8977 this information is also available on the published agenda in the Public Notices section of the city website and on the broadcast of this meeting on CTN Channel 16 AT&T channel
00299 and online at www.a2gov.org slw CN the design review board is a volunteer resident board appointed by the mayor and confirmed by city council the purpose of the design review board is to F Foster excellence and the design of an Arbor's built environment and to advise applicants on how a project can meet the spirit and the intent of the downtown design guidelines we'll do a little housekeeping approval of last last week's last month's minutes and then Brett Leonard is going to speak to us to introduce the project and maybe Jeff Khan too I'm not sure and then the applicant will have 10 minutes to present the project um as proposed to the design review board and then the board will hold a discussion on the design of the project following the presentation members of the
003of the community are permitted to comment for up to three minutes so our first housekeeping is roll call Jeff if you would do that uh board member Mitchell here member Kinley Bill Bill uh I can come back to Bill uh member Perkins here member Cooper member Singleton here member Buck Walter here member karski member Burns here and I I'll try bill again um member Kinley I'm here yes great in that case you have a Forum okay thank you uh the next order is the approval of the agenda the only thing we're going to add is brat Leonard is with us and he's going to speak briefly before the applicant is there anything else anyone would like to add or move could someone please approve approval of the agenda please move don't moved okay board um
004any more discussion all in favor say I I I okay uh next is approval of the minutes from our September 9th meeting we usually do this in advance but I didn't get it out to all of you so we'll have to do it on the Fly today has everyone had a chance to review those minutes and are there any corrections okay n would someone like to approve the minutes as as written to approve L and Jeff seconds um any more discussion all in favor please say I I I and we're we're up to Brett then this is your opportunity to introduce the project yeah um thank you um and I just wanted take a set the stage with this a little bit I think Kristen will be promoting the um the project uh petitioner and
005project uh Consultants here shortly but um I just want to give you a little bit of background uh the city council has directed a city staff largely being led by Jennifer Hall the executive director of the annor Housing Commission to evaluate the affordable housing potential for a series of publicly owned sites throughout the city um so so there is uh about 10 or so sites and um we've been sort of approaching those in a couple of chunks uh the first uh Community engagement and action was um specific to 415 West Washington across from the Y lot and the former y lot um on Fifth and uh William um and then we are currently uh starting some additional Community engagement on for other sites which you may have seen some information on those are 721 North
006Main the uh Catherine and fourth parking surface parking lot near KY town the P what I will call uh it's 353 South Main it's a surface parking lot immediately south of the Paleo restaurant and then um the Klein lot um which is a Ser a service parking lot sort of uh uh on immediately behind the Western block um just north of William that runs the most fing for that block um so um so this is um a little bit unconventional in that the city has directed us to start looking at these sites and um in fact starting what we're calling a pre- entitlement process and um I think Jennifer and the consultant team will get into this but I just wanted to set the stage a little bit that um generally our goal is to
007ideally find the opportunities to use these public assets to develop affordable housing affordable housing is difficult at times in the city because of cost of land because of cost of development um the ability to use publicly owned land and sort of provide a little bit more flexibility for things like carrying cost and the review cost um and potentially consider any uh discounting of land is a huge opportunity to potentially realize affordable housing units and so this is the first step um in in that sort of the project that is a bit of the Leading Edge of that the former wot here and um to make it a a little bit more unconventional um I think we're also going to be presenting to you um kind of two different massing approaches they're while they're largely similar
008um there the significant difference is driven by uh the service alley provided to the building and whether or not to widen that to potentially also provide some opportunities for uh expanded Bus Parking given the site's adjacency to the Blake Transit Center um we're still uh we still have some ongoing conversations with what the viability of that is um but to the extent you are comfortable as the designer review board I would be grateful for your feedback on those both of those options um obviously whether or not we ultimately are able to expand transit services onto this site there's a lot of um there's a lot of consideration in decision makers be Beyond both the design review board not me of course but um that is the primary driver for seeing a couple of different scenarios
009in this massing study today and so um to the we can get feedback the project team can get feedback on both of those scenar I think we'd be grateful as those opportunities um get refined and we move forward um the the end uh result of this is is ideally to um bring this to some sort of pre-approval like we through a plan unit development at the city council and then at that time um start engaging a private development partner which would then return to you with the more detailed refined true design so um I think this is um hopefully meeting some of the conversation that you've had as a board about ideally having sort of this massing conversation before you get into some of the the more detailed design aspects um it's going to be
010a little bit probably separated from the traditional way that that has happened in the past but um that was sort of the idea and I'm H happy to address any questions but I think you'll learn a a lot more once we get into the presentation as well right and I wonder if you could just uh remind us because we see very few planned unit developments we usually see bys projects could you review for us the difference real quickly sure a plan unit development is a zoning District in our code that um is a bit of um a fle it was is a flexible zoning District where you essentially write a zoning code for a very specific property and that is done when perhaps there are aspects of the property that can't be accomplished under a
011typical zoning um um Provisions um or there are perhap at times very specific um public benefits that are desired to be achieved in the consideration of of a development and in fact public benefits is one of the tradeoffs while the plan unit development provides some flexibility from other zoning districts that is it it could vary things from height or uses or floor area ratio or parking you name it um it has to be accompanied by public benefits that ultimately the city council as the legislative body determines are valid offsets to the flexibility being provided to other otherwise um incase standards in our zoning ordinance and so with this um particular application you you'll actually see that much of the design is actually pretty similar and based on our underlying zoning districts but given this um
012approach of the city actually pre- entitling it um we anticipate that there's going to be some desires and expectations clearly established as going forward and the Pud provides a really great opportunity to memorialize some of those in the code the rezoning itself um and then um hopefully once a private developer then is engaged as e as a partner with the Housing Commission that affords them the opportunity to have some um Reliance frankly that as long as a project is Meeting those parameters set forth in the plan unit development it sort of becomes a byright project to that zoning District then I see okay thank you thank you thanks for the opportunity let me just introduce the project and then we can get the applicant on the floor um this is 350 South fth Avenue the
013petitioner who is the city of an Arbor Housing Commission is Seeking a plan unit development approval of a concept to construct 418 dwelling units including 30 affordable units on this8 Acre Site bounded by East William to the South South 4th Avenue to the West South Fifth Avenue to the East and the Blake Transit Center to the north the city has hired Smith group to host public engagement efforts and to create massing elevations for the project public feedback encouraged the tall portions of the building to be located on the Northern end of the site or adjacent to the Blake Transit Center the proposed height of the building includes one four five 13 and 18 story elements the proposed floor area ratio is approximately 800% knowing that 900% is the maximum with affordable housing a 30 foot
014wide service alley is proposed to be located on the North End of the site connecting South forth and South 5th and I believe we're going to see an option for a 45 foot wide service alley too the site is the Midtown overlay district with secondary Frontage on all three streets once city council approves the concept plan which will include a conceptual PUD site plan with supplemental regulations the city will search for a developer who will propose a complete development project this will result in a comprehensive design being submitted to the design review board in the future the design review board is being asked to review the concept plan and the massing at this time so finally I'd like to bring on the applicant and I I would also like to ask since we can't see
015everyone who is here if you could let us know who's attending um from your team that that'd be real helpful sure hi everyone um Michael Johnson from Smith group co-lead our Urban Design practice um hope you can hear me okay uh my colleague Alex Huff is on the phone and video with us here today and I think that's it uh Jennifer Hall is also on hi everyone Jennifer is on all video conferences it seems like um this is actually the first time I've been in front of the design review uh board for doing development and uh so I'm super excited to see how this goes just having found out it's a 10-minute conversation I'm immediately going to turn it over to the Smith group to uh start this conversation since I am not the designer
016great I will um I'm gonna try to share my screen here and hopefully this will all work out maybe does that work can everyone see my screen y great okay so um I just wanted to do a very quick kind of where we've been to set the table here and uh in in the in the context of being super brief this is a process that we started in Earnest in 2019 uh went through robust public engagement process that included a surveys and um online engagement and and inperson engagement back then we could do that safely um and and really we were you know really just super excited about the kind of uh engagement that that we received uh we did have um the constituents on an online survey rate a series of criteria as to
017you know how we might measure success and and the top of of the list there on criteria for redeveloping 350 South fth included maximizing the number of affordable units and creating uh a minimum of 100 affordable units um akin to what used to be on the site uh and then you can see some of the other priorities mix of housing units and types and and uh ma maximizing at least 50% of the ground floor with active uses and then you can see a little bit further down expanding the the capacity of Blake Transit Center those were then some of the drivers that we built into our design process process that we then took to the public in a series of options that you see uh on the screen here um that varied frankly quite W
018widely uh in massing in um size of lot uh in orientation of building and in in number of units uh there was a clear preferred option as voted on by the public uh that is very similar to the option that we're going to show uh you today but that as was alluded to unit option includes a 13 story and an 18 story building on a on a one-story um uh kind of plin level um allowing for um 30 foot service Lane shared service Lane uh adjacent to Blake Transit and and um prioritizing 418 total units of which 130 uh were were targeted to be affordable um as we've gone through the process we've gotten additional detail from a survey perspective this is um this is the lot itself I know many of you are familiar
019with this it it is a lot that is uh 264 feet by 132 feet there is a 10 foot uh DTE easement on the very back side of this adjacent to the Blake Transit Center and then of course adjacent to fourth fifth in the William Street uh uh bike way uh this is the plan view uh as you can see from the top uh and just showing where the one the one floor four floor 13 floor and 18 floor and again as was alluded to the the massing was really driven by a public sentiment not to put the mass of that building along William Street because of um you know some of the uses uh across the street and and that that being a transition zone from D1 into into others and so um it
020it does provide some challenges right um to the mass of a building being primarily above a loading and service Corridor and um you know I think as we've gone through this pre- entitlement process this is the thing that that our design team in conjunction with Jennifer Hall and the city and the the DDA and the triple ATA has just been has has frankly spent a lot of time being kind of hyper focused on and that's why we do bring you a couple of options today um you know I think from a Housing Commission um standpoint it this is a it's a challenging site to make sure that we get right for an 18 story building and still um you know has all of the service needs that we that that that we know know it
021needs to do right whe whether that be um move in move out U food drop off um uh trash pickup um uh loading and unloading for any potential active ground floor uses Etc so that's what led us to the need for some kind of an onr um service alley here it it cannot happen below grade um because of uh the kind of size of the lot and the constraints there um and you know the the current option actually is looking at a potential for a basement but not um not an underground parking or above grade parking here parking uh demain and would be per for an agreement with the DDA would be intended to be in the adjacent garages so when you think about a service loading and the kind of space for serving service
022space for um Lobby space and and bical storage and tenant amenities and then potential kind of commercial tenants um and then where those vertical circulation cores happen this is kind of how that 30 foot option was laying out some very early understanding of uh unit typology so the the first floor uh in this 30 foot option has about 18,000 square feet of ground floor space with then uh the next three stories um being kind of single loaded um residential with the with the kind of service happening in this alley space behind and then a much more traditional opportunity for that that building to go up in a double loaded way the one thing that we have been kind of holding as an option here um you know in order to maximize the potential subsidies uh
023for maximizing affordable units is um you know kind of getting the the kind of project size right for um a litech federal tax credit both either a 4% or 9% deal so we we actually looked at the option to have um you know two two kind of parcels within the single parcel um that that could either phase in or or you know could could at least look at two different funding streams to maximize the number of affordable units um this is then how we've started to look at um some of the um you know general outlay of one-bedroom Studio two-bedroom apartments um again all ahead of making sure that that we we get the this right to to kind of partner with a developer and then you know how that looks um at the ground
024uh looking to the West along William Street here uh looking to the east along William Street at the fourth and William garage and then uh along fifth at the current Blake Transit Center with with that potential option um the the second version that that we're bringing uh to your attention today you know for discussion and I guess you know Brett alluded to this but you know the real hope here is to help our design team really think through the kind of crucial elements that need to be pre- entitled through this ped process right what what are what are the things that um a potential developer partner uh might look at as saying well I I could I I could cut Corners there or other things like that and um uh and so that's why I
025think we're spending a lot of time on this ground floor piece so this is um this is a 45 foot option which um is really being driven by the triple ata's desire uh to have dedicated bus space not shared um with uh with a service uh component and then still providing that service um access um separately uh from that and so um we're able to do this in a way that still allows ows us to keep a pretty regular column grid here so um you know but but I think the implications then of course are less space on the ground floor um so this is about 15,000 uh square feet on the ground floor um just it kind of requires a little bit of the uh squishing of some of the commercial tenant space and
026tenant ameny space and the um residential Lobby and vertical circulation moves just a little bit closer to William Street in this option you can see um the 30 foot option and then what what the 45 foot option looks like so it isn't unsubstantial it is it is worth noting and and it is worth um you know I think having this conversation uh with you in the context of you know how much can we do on this site and and how do we make sure that we we only we not only maximize affordable units um but provide for the opportunity for the Triple ATA to expand so this is the 30 foot option looking um to the east on William and then uh as you kind of start to push that a little bit closer with
027those vertical circulation elements and here's uh the The View on on Fifth um and then I think as you saw in our packet we do have some some very preliminary kind of uh elevations um that uh that start to further describe kind of where we're at in our process so I think Jennifer do you have other things that you'd like to add to that or should we open it up to conversation at this point Jennifer I don't know if she's on we l Jennifer okay it seems seems as though we've lost Jennifer um do who would like to open up with comments oh okay everybody's Rel talk so the go go over again the logic of why you want the thinking the the 45 foot option that puts the Sawtooth parking spaces for the buses
028why are we bringing those into that building site sure um you know I think that that would allow for the Triple at to have a a double um sided transit station which is um you know seen as an improvement for them um it doesn't you know depending on what we do then with the curbs of both fourth and fifth it doesn't necessarily add capacity to the transit but it does reduce um uh walking distance between uh bus stops and so um the Sawtooth component is seen as preferable by the triple ATA because it does allow buses to pull in and pull out without having to wait for the bus in front of them to move um and so you know with a with the kind of Hub and spoke system of our transit system as
029I understand it um it it it is um it's kind of imperative to make sure that we're we're keeping the system uh moving in such a way so that's that's what led to that that kind of 45 foot Sawtooth option bread I don't know if you have others other things that you would add to that description no I think that's it you know we've had a lot of conversation about um just general city goals to support Transit the site is obviously next next to it the interaction of Transit with the streets both immediately surrounding the site and in the greater area um so it it is um you know I think development of the site will impact bus operations if you go there today there's some um parking of buses around the site and um
030at a minimum whether it's a 30ft service alley or something larger that's going to limit where those buses can park so it's some combination of potentially relocating those or um because of the proximity to the Blake it might actually help them to sort of rep prioritize from just kind of staging to more active uh Transit stop loading and unloading and closer proximity to the to the Blake building so looking at the this the the plan with that that option it shows a couple Dimensions over on the left hand side one of them is a 15 foot Dimension immediately adjacent to the first floor uses is that meant for loading and unloading for the commercial spaces and the next 22 feet for circulation of the buses other words you wouldn't want to have the buses block
031uh deliveries nor the deliveries block the buses so I assume that distinction showed a route for the buses you stay the hell away from the route for the um the loading and unloading is that right that's correct and that yeah that that is the desire of the triple ATA is to um not have those spaces mixed not having service Vehicles not having uh personal vehicles in the space where where buses could uh uh could be and and where they at actively load and unload passengers right and my last question will be since I think most of the buses are still biodiesel is the uh the off gassing from the buses trapped by the floor above and the side building doesn't that per potentially have a problem for the residential uses above it's a it's a
032really good question and something that we've thought about very intentionally here we we um are actually it's it's concerning us enough that we are going through a cost um analysis not just of the structural differences required between the two options but also high level mechanical assumptions because uh the the the real the both the perceived and real issues with parking buses under uh housing units and under affordable units is something we need to take very seriously here so thank you for that question Brett you had another hand up I I just wanted to note that we do have Jennifer back she's AUD only but she's rejoined the U Michael seeing with Bill's line of thinking in am I reading it correctly that because of new bike way on William there are no curb cuts on
033William so all of the pickup and drop off all the emergency vehicles GrubHub Uber and everything will be on that internal service for the new is that either that yeah sorry you broke up just a little bit at the end there but um either either in that alley or uh in that space that um 70 or 80 feet on fourth and fifth um you know that those areas are currently bus parking areas would not need to be in in in that scenario and so could be temp you know shared ride drop off or or or um you know food delivery kind of short-term parking component opponents but yeah on William is really tough um because of the dedicated bike way uh there there is an option to to think about there is some parking on
034the south side of William that um you could think about moving that from the south side of William to the south side of the the bike way but um we haven't gone too far uh in that because You' still then would be crossing over a bike way in order to get to the to the building so so with with your curb cuts on fourth and fifth for the service alley aeta is going to lose some drop off space on Fourth and I don't think it will affect the air ride spot but but they they are going to come out of it with less spaces I believe aren't they um it would be it it would be a potential so there's two options there right the in the 30 foot option if the triple ATA says
035we don't we're not willing to share any of that space um and parallel park a couple of buses there you know then then we have a conversation right then about do that do you maintain triple ATA on fourth or fifth right I think we can move I think aide can move or is already been moved over to um the other side of fourth next to the parking garage at this point uh or when it starts running again um but but yes I mean I think that the the the Bas line here is let's where we started as let's try to expand um Transit capacity there there is a real threat to make sure that we just don't lose capacity here too right so um uh that's frankly what is one of the main drivers that's
036led to this 45 foot option yeah yeah I I I would just add to that you know just to Echo Michael's comments a little bit we have just started from a staff level start thinking about ways to accommodate that you know maybe there are some long-term design design decisions we make about Fourth Street or uh or fifth um that either enhances or changes the way that those corridors support AA ATA so um generally um I think we all recognize the Blake Transit facility itself is fairly tight and it's it was probably um I'm I can't speak for them but I would I would speculate that it was probably undersized at the time it was built um but um it doesn't mean that future capacity all has to happen in that same form I think there's
037a lot of options whether it's the public right of ways whether it's something incremental on this site maybe it's Library Lane who knows there's probably lots of opportunity for us you know lots of conversations obviously but ways to sort of enhance capacity for Transit which is really important for a lot of City goals okay well I can time in here um I suppose if AA put their building where this board wanted them to in the beginning we might have more options but I know we had a lot of discussion around that um I'm very familiar with the site actually um was on the William Street Station team at Smith group so um I'm really happy that something's being done again on the site it's and with this um affordable housing component which is so I'm
038thrilled about that um I also I guess it you know it just depends on the transit issues or or needs or if there's options for putting it elsewhere but I would definitely be um if if it can be figured out how to incorporate that um under the building and in that that back Lane I think that would be um you know a real plus um just to get the buses off the street and um a more safe place for people to trans transfer among the buses um and it is a issue with you know being under the building but I think we had the whole Transit Center under the building and we had um you know it just you know whether you can do it mechanically or naturally I think um that would be worth
039definitely worth looking at um I'm there's a couple things that I'm curious about one is sort of surprised to see just a one story um Flint the long William it's uh it seems a little low uh you know the buildings or houses across the street are all at least two stor um and it just it feels it it it feels like it could be taller I know then you have an issue you don't want to fake facade or anything we we've seen that in um some buildings um it just should be you know authentic um so I don't know if there's not a need for that kind of large scale um um space but if there was some way to make use of a second floor um even bringing window wells or area Wells down
040into it to bring light in or um I think that would be worth looking at and I it's hard to comment on this because it looks like you've sort of explored every single option so um but so I'm you probably looked at that but um that's something that I see when I look at this the other thing is um it kind of bothers me that the large um I think it's 18 story piece is so broad um I just want to be able to see through it somehow um and I just don't know if it could be pulled back made even a little taller uh to gain the units back but it like can it be disconnected did you look at that disconnecting it from the 13 stories piece um just to make the the
041towers a little blender um I me I understand why it's it seems appropriate to put where you did but um again it just seems like it's it's like a huge billboard kind of blocking the whole south side of Ann Arbor from downtown so um but those were really the only I'm sure you've looked at all that thoroughly but um you know I think this I just like to comment also that I think this process is great um everything that the housing commission's gone through in the city and and bringing in front of us um really appreciate the chance to see comment on it thank you thank you for those comments and and um yeah I mean I think the the both of the pieces that you've commented on are somewhat related um you know I
042think we did look at options to do a two a twostory plinth or even um no plinth at all right um because the goal here I mean frankly it was a it a math game right like how much floor area race how much floor area do we have and where do we how do we get to 900% without going above um 180 feet and we actually um you know in in some of these options chose to go above the 180 feet right which um is something that that we we could do so if if it if there would be if there would be more um interest in in kind of you know not looking at 180 feet as a ceiling and kind of pushing above that I think it does give us more more flexibility
043from a form standpoint um as to what that use might be you know um you know it's anybody's guess right as far as like retail or office or whether any of those things will be viable but we did really want to maximize our floor area for housing while still activating the ground floor there and so um you know it's it's a related comment because you know I think uh we do have an option between where the 13 story and the 18 story building are connected to actually think about that as a more kind of see-through element right it could be a corridor it could be a GL something glassy that kind of makes it look like uh two buildings um and so um you know I think that's one option and then get harder to
044maybe like actually push it back a little bit because you would lose all you'd lose all the units all the way up um but uh but yeah that's I I really appreciate appreciate those comments because it is it's something we need to get right here so I'd really like to support that I hope um height doesn't become a restriction because it just affords better massing opportunities and it it allows the designers to taper the building as it as it goes up and we end up with a much more elegant project and whenever we talk about that we talk we compare two buildings have nothing to do with an arbor but the Empire State Building in New York everyone loves because it tapers as it goes up no one complains about how high it is of
045course it's a very different context and compare that to the merchandise mart in Chicago which is a massive squat building that just extrudes up in a rectangular form has a lot of nice detailing but but it's nowhere near as elegant with a similar amount of square footage maybe even more than the Empire State Building so it if you have an opportunity to not be restricted by height requirements it it is really helpful for uh the designers we we made a mistake we we thought as a board the city did on South University where the height requirement was decreased but the F was not proportionately decreased along with it so every developer is going to get every bit of square footage in the F they're allowed and and on a project in South U you know
046they did the two or three story Street wall with the obligatory 5- foot setback in then did the math and found they had to bump right up against the height requirement to get all of their F so there was no opportunity for volume changes in in the height of the building as as it went up and it was a missed opportunity so the F should have either been decreased or they should have been allowed to go beyond the heights environement it would have given us a better Skyline I think so I hope you hang on to that and the Pud process will probably facilitate that so really encourage you to to to encourage the eventual developer to to do tapering and and massing changes that make for a more interesting building je I agree with
047um really everything that dick said especially about the you know the bassing and the ability toh step things I have a question though about really this is this is a new type of thing that our board is seeing for the first time where um if I understood you correctly Brett when you uh opened up it was basically we're taking this site owned by the city and we're applying some zoning Concepts to it thus the idea that it's a PUD rather than a bght zoning and we're applying some design parameters to it then what happens yeah then um we once those parameters are established um we Market um the site to a um to a developer um that will partner it will likely be some partnership because um specifically Jennifer and her team have a lot
048of expert and developing and operating the affordable housing that would be component to this but at the same time they recognize that they um well they could typically they don't do market rate housing and so it would probably at that point be a RFP like process but the intention is that we will have um narrowed some of the questions at that time as opposed to in the past you might have seen the city issue an RFP for a property and say you know what you propose intention here is to sort of answer some of the questions specifically with some parameters and expectations have those adopted so it very much becomes a byright project um within that PUD zoning regulation so again more simply the intent is to trying to eliminate as many of the unknowns
049um to perhaps both draw interests and improve the chances that we'll be able to realize um our our program for it thank you um do you have some rough idea or projection as to timeline you know we're here now then when then what's the next step then when does it go to council and then when does it go out for RFP and then how much time is a developer that comes along and you know wins the uh wins the the bid or whatever you want to call it then essentially when does the shovel go on the ground yeah I'll let Jennifer address that she would be overseeing that Jennifer do you do you want to maybe share also the same timelines that you kind of discussed with Council uh sure um as far as getting
050to the point where Council approves um a area plan I believe when Alex um worked on that schedule it was going to be somewhere in the spring late spring um of 2021 um um I would imagine it will take probably three to five months to go through an RFP and selection process depending on um how involved city council honestly would like to be in that process um it can then take a lot longer because you have a lot more public uh meetings that you have to meet those deadlines and then once a developer is selected there's going to be time for more um ref in the design um making sure that what we have approved Works figuring out the legal relationship between you know the Housing Commission and the developer in the city uh I
051would imagine that would take another up to six months and then in the meantime we would also be re refining the proforma and the financing um and for the affordable housing side uh we would be working very hard on securing funding for subsidizing units whereas the private sector developer would uh be working very hard on finding the private uh equity and debt to uh Finance um both the market rate and the entire project so it's going to be very complicated um I wouldn't imagine we'd be able to uh break down break down break ground uh for several years uh in the world of affordable housing the project scores very well for the types of financing we would normally apply for but once you apply for them it can take a year to get to closing
052uh to deal with all the different legal entities that are involved so I would say probably breaking ground we're talking 2023 at the earliest would be my best guess and possibly later than that thank you go through another another round of development where a devel ties it up and then it just sits there and nothing happens with it yeah and what we're really trying to do with this process is mitigate that risk I mean that's a Brett said that but not in so many words is like how do we get a project that's viable that can be developed that a developer is interested in that also meets our public goals and doesn't just sit there and so this is definitely um Our Hope since we've never done it before either um one way to mitigate
053that risk and make sure we have a project that does go forward cor did I see you wanting to jump in um yeah and I I was just going to add that um in support of what Jennifer said you know the profor analysis is happening along the way as well so um you know Jennifer has a lot of expertise obviously in the affordable housing side of things and we've also been working with uh consultant uh on the broader overall project structure a lot of questions obviously as we go forward but I just want to um be clear that this is more than a massing exercise it's also been a financial modeling exercise all towards the goals that Jennifer was referencing I have a qu quick question this is for Jennifer so um given that it's
054it's clear you're going to the developer or the developer City uh portable Housing Commission is going to have to have some kind of alphabet soup of of government programs helping out so to speak do you anticipate there any of those PR programs that would have requirements would affect the design considerations we're being asked to look at um yes but not anything that's out of line with current city design requirements um for example you know we get more points The Greener the building is if we meet um certain standards you know and that's also a goal of the city um we get more points if we have more than the minimum requirements for accessibility you know something we want to build into the building and you know would meet be something I think the city would
055also be interested in as far as the the one thing that I think will come up and um it there's a changing perspective on this I think both um with local governments as well as funders is is parking and what is required on a site um and what we would require or what we would want versus what uh um the private sector would want for market rate housing um we have been talking to a variety of developers that um do larger projects like this to kind of understand that part of the market and and what would be desirable amenities and features and and parking has definitely come up and so even though we haven't designed this right now to include underground parking um that could be something that a developer would say look we cannot
056make this work unless we have X amount of underground parking that you know we finance and build into the project kind of thing um but as far as like architectural design nothing else jumps to mind but hey we get surprised by Misha all the time on things that they want us to do I would think that they might have a little bit of heartburn over the issue we talked about earlier about having the the the diesel buses in you know basically under their housing units that might be something to explore regarding the underground parking maybe Brett would could better speak to this since there was originally a thought of connecting the library lot Underground Across and under Fifth and connect to this is that still a feasible possibility um I think generally no I think
057the the cost of that connection is sizable um and the sort of relative benefit for it um the I think the footprint of this this lot is challenging to get the circulation for multiple levels of underground parking so um unless you were going to do it in such a way that it was probably multiple access points which is probably physically possible but the cost would be just so drastic and um while I think we're all going to be in a bit of wait and see mode um it's probably pretty hard to Envision invest in the high per Co per space cost for underground parking from a public sector perspective right now given where we are in general parking revenues in our our current state for think about the parking because I'm sure that and I'll
058stop jabbering on because Cory wants to talk here there is it possible to think about a pedestrian elevated connector between this building and the fourth and and uh fourth and William parking structure yeah we had quite we fought about that quite a bit um um we on one hand we think that that would be a great idea on the other hand it's sort of um against the principles of getting people on the street um and so um we had a we had a lot of inter internal debate over that and I don't I wouldn't say that we have eliminated it or embraced it yeah and I I would just like to add that we are doing a cost analysis of doing a couple floors of underground just just for our all of our information on
059what that would actually cost and entail um so we're not just guessing cor I see your mute button is off oh just wanted to say a few words about I'm kind of the resident Planner on this team and um I'm just really thrilled to see this process and um all these parties working together um that alone is amazing aming um and the possibility of this kind of affordable housing which is so needed um and your public participation process looks like it's been amazing and I was just thinking you know Jeff was talking about that we you explained the timeline and that's helpful to know and I was just you know we could loop back to the wonderful guidelines that we have from for this board and you know sending it back to you Michael um
060know and Jennifer if you have questions for us from the guidelines um you know if things aren't clear or whatever I I think they are a great um starting point as well and I'm not the chair but I would suggest you know I would appreciate if you wanted to come back in between and you know another meeting or come back to one of our meetings and we could go through the guidelines a little bit when you feel like it's appropriate I would think that would be a good that's good thing to move appreciate that yeah great idea yeah um I I had a few more things related to massing uh one was uh the reveals of different masses um as they're expressed often we'll see you know on a u 12-story building a a reveal
061that is only 4 in deep and it does create a shadow line but it it it's way too small for the proportion of something that tall so if we're talking about something more than 180 feet tall the reveals that Express the different volumes and and designated material change need to be four feet they they need to be large enough to be seen and and to stand alone so I'd encourage them to express the the different volumes with deep reveals um in material selection we we also often see Brick carried all the way up because everyone in Arbor loves brick but from a sustainability point of you it's difficult to maintain you know we've all been watching for two years the building at I guess it's the northwest corner of Maine and ciron with the swing
062stages and rep pointing and rebuilding and replacing brick it it's a real difficult process to maintain that material that high so it it is a it's a perfect material for the grade level you know Street story building uh part of it where a person can get up and appreciate the smaller scale and and touch it but 12 stories up in the air uh there's probably another module of material that that requires less maintenance and um and would work proportionally with a mass that big so if the designers could consider different material usage that has durability and means lowered operational costs down the road I think that would serve the building well um and John karski I I want to speak up for him he didn't prompt me to do this but I John is is
063our uh public Arts commission representative and I know he would see all these planes as great opportunities for public art and uh if you were here that that would be in our minutes if if you could look for opportunities to maybe put that into the RFQ that that gets gets written that that we would like to see public art as a component of this project he would be happy and I feel like I should represent him um and I I'd like talk just a little more about the service alley i i before covid I used to ride the bus every day and and and come and go to Blake twice a day and all of the um windowless elements of of the Blake Transit Center are on the South Side the toilet rooms elevator the
064stair the offices which have a few windows but it's basically a a blank wall and and in cold weather when you go into the transit building to wait for your bus you do so because it it's warmer and the north facing wall is All Glass and you can see the buses come and go there's a sign telling you when they arrive but it doesn't always coordinate with actual arrival times and and so it it would be great if if the Blake Transit Center if there are going to be buses on the South Side could build out into that 14 foot space with with glass and with egress and Ingress doors so people could wait in in heated spaces for the buses and otherwise they they would need to go out either the east or west
065or the North doors walk around the building when they think their bus is there but without really knowing so there there are issues about visibility and and people using the bus system so I think Bill was alluding to this might not be a great fit to solve aa's problems but if you do set out to do that you should do it all the way and [Music] not yeah appreciate that dick that's a that's a really good comment and it's it's really where our our team started from before we got caught in this kind of dimensional um discussion with the triple ATA I mean the the Baseline of this is that U if this is the extension of the Blake Transit Center um making sure that kind of written into the pre- entitlement that that this
066is this is a pleasant space that encourages Transit use not an afterthought because it would be a place that um would be easy for a developer to make an afterthought right so um I do appreciate that that comment um it and and it may be relevant in either scenario because the Blake is is the neighbor of this building right so um it it it could be relevant regardless of which direction we head thank you thank you that's everything I had anybody else have further comments okay thank you Michael and thank you Jennifer thank you Alex we appreciate thank you very thanks for having us and I'd like to Second Cory's invitation come back whenever you'd like excellent' love to talk thanks take care dick I'm happy to summarize comments whenever you think that would be
067appropriate oh I I was going to skip right over that Jeff so thank you if you could summarize your comments while Al I see Alex is still there we might have lost Michael Jennifer's still there go ahead uh um I first heard some questions from uh both Bill and Dick uh one regarding the 15 foot access to the building on the North side uh potential drop off locations uh for the site I heard questions about air quality and the and the buses from the ride uh as well as bus access uh Tamara spoke um about um it it being being good to incorporate um the ride spaces as part of this design since it's a an important Community function um she was uh surprised to see the one story portion along William Street she felt
068that it could be a bit taller um maybe um it could be taller and and be a real authentic um portion of the facade uh Tamar was bothered by the 18 story piece that is so broad um she wondered whether it could be pulled back or maybe disconnected from the 13 Story Tower uh to allow them to be maybe a little less massive um she also felt that the process that um uh the city's going through um with Smith group has been uh a very good um dick spoke about um a pre preference or desire to taper the building um he made reference to a couple um buildings one in New York City and one in Chicago how different they were in terms of massing and um wondered um if there could be some masing
069changes to uh encourage a more interesting building Jeff um had questions about the design parameters questions about the timeline RFP city council uh bill um wondered uh whether financing would in some way affect um various elements of the design excuse me um Bill also wondered about a potential pedestrian connection to the library lot deck and under an underst structure connection which had originally been battered around uh quite a few years ago that would get people from this complex um to the um existing Library lot deck underneath fifth that seemed to be a bit expensive however um he also wanted about an elevated pedestrian tunnel from this building to the fourth in uh William Street parking deck um evidently that was still on the table although um there was seemed to a desire to um encourage
070more pedestrian activity along along the sidewalks uh Corey um encourage the petitioners to come to the drb at other points in time uh for instance possibly to discuss the design guidelines um even prior to the formal submitt that would be part um that would take place prior to the site plan approve approval or site plan submittal process Dick had a few other final points um he encouraged the designer or the design team to um emphasize deeper reveals suggesting that an 18-story Tower a 4in reveal may not show up very well uh however a 4-foot reveal might um be be more effective might be large enough to be seen uh dick also said that brick is a perfectly fine building material on for the lower levels but it might uh not be sustainable for the higher
071levels there may be some maintenance issues involved uh down down the line uh he encouraged the design team to consider a variety of of facade materials uh he also pointed out that although John karski was not able to join us today that John most certainly would um promote the notion of public art and the design team to look for opportunities for and then um uh lastly um dick mentioned that as a as a um as someone who rides on the ride regularly prior to covid um he noticed a few things in terms of design of the Blake Transit Center and uh that although the Blake has a lot of nice glass uh features on the north side of the building that allow um a Transit user to to stay inside the building during cold days
072and see when their bus is arriving there's really nothing on the Southside and this could be an opportunity for Blake to bump out on the Southside to create um a um a um uh a secured area where people can wait indoors and and wait for the bus to arrive that's my summary um just wanted to make sure I I didn't miss anything no good job anyone have anything to add yeah I just have a a question I didn't hear any um substantive um differentiation between like the 30 foot or 45 foot um uh cutout other than the same questions about the integration with the Blake and air quality am I I just want to make sure that I am hearing that correctly does anyone have comment on that what are you what are you getting
073at Brett the how that affects the massing yeah I didn't so um I know this is It's we're sort of kind of preventing two two concepts here and I I guess um of the comments I didn't hear anything specific that no it's got to be 30 feet or it's got to be 45 feet I I didn't hear any sub substantial um preference for one of those options over the other um both of them still have some setback from William although it varies slightly um but it seems like all the comments were pretty similar to both of those scenarios and I I just want to make sure I I wasn't missing anything I I had it in my notes to bring up and I'm glad you you said something and be because of the bike lane
074on William and the fact that the entire new building will need to be serviced from that that new driveway and by doing so uh when there's a new curb cut on Fourth AA will actually lose spaces I think anything that that can be done to enhance the amount of curb cuts that or the amount of curb space that AAA gets is Meaningful up to even letting them expand with a glazed Lobby looking into that space so there's more eyes on the space also so I say The Wider the better I don't know how wide that needs to be but there are two really needed functions that will be occurring in that alley um and and Bill is right the the diesel buses are not only smelly but they're loud when they hit their brakes that
075that's a loud hard surface area and I did notice that there was a bit of a chimney above the AA building where where fumes can escape but it's it's a challenge to make such a utilitarian space Pleasant and U and I think the more space it has easier that becomes I maybe I wasn't um specific about saying I preferred The Wider one I um just I I thought it was a great idea to pull that under there which requires to have it wider so way I was saying yeah just same as dick um wider the better and bring bring the buses off the street solve the fumes okay so yeah it sounds like I mean that's kind of staff is when we've been evaluating these options we are kind of of a similar mind we're
076trying to preserve enhance capacity of the transit system and so whether it's a more narrow service alley um that hopefully aain some more capacity right on the street front that's one way to do so alternatively we could look at shifting some of that actually onto this site with a wider so um it's some I I just wanted to make sure that I was hearing hearing and I appreciate this conversation it sounds like um I'm hearing just I guess some general advocacy that incorporating Transit on this site is a great opportunity so I think so any other comment just point out that it's not not a unanimous support of the 45 ft oh that's democracy bill can I write a descending opinion like I'm learning about the supr Supreme Court you can write it we don't
077have to read it though okay our our next item is Communications to the design review board and there was an email that we got from a neighbor regarding this project are you you did everyone get that and see it just wanted to acknowledge it okay um and now I need to read some about the um public commentary section this is the opportunity for persons to speak for up to three minutes to comment please call 877 5247 or 888 78899 and then meeting ID which is 8977 City staff Kristen will select callers that have raised their hand one by one using the last three digits of their phone number in order to electronically raise your hand to indicate your desire to speak please press star9 on your phone you will hear an automated announcement that the
078host is allowing you to speak when speaking please move to a quiet area and mute any television or background sounds so we may be able to hear you clearly please state your name and address at the beginning of your comments so we usually give them a few seconds here to see if anyone has called in oh there I I was just going to say we lost Kristen but we didn't there she is no callers no callers okay we will close public commentary and move on then uh last order of business is adjournment someone like to move adjournment Tamara is in and and Bill seconds um any other items anyone would like to bring up okay all in favor say I all right we are done thank you everybody thank you you bye