001get started I'd like to call to order the April 10th 2019 meeting of the Design Review Board would you please do roll-call Alexis thank you well welcome I am Tamara burns chairperson of the Design Review Board I would like to take a minute to relay the board's purpose and procedures the design review board is a seven person volunteer citizen board appointed by the mayor and confirmed by the City Council the purpose of the design review board is to foster excellence in the design of Ann Arbor's built environment and to advise petitioners on how a project can meet the spirit and intent of the downtown design guidelines we are mandatory review voluntary compliance meaning that projects have to come before us but there's no requirement to follow our suggestions one review is required although we have
002been encouraging and been quite successful in having petitioners come two or more times as the project evolves the procedure of the meeting is as follows first the applicant will present their proposed project to the design review board then the applicant and Design Review Board will hold the discussion on the design of the project following the presentation and discussion members of the public are permitted to comment for up to three minutes this is not a questions and answer or discussion period all speakers are asked to sign in and state their name and address for the record today we have no petitioners so we are having a discussion about bylaws and also about improving the process so the first thing it's may I have a motion to prove the agenda so move it is now open for
003discussion do we have any changes to the agenda okay all those in favor as is okay agenda is approved we do have minutes to approve from the March 13th meeting may have a motion to approve the minutes I have a second second all right it's now open for discussion does anyone want to take a just a few minutes to read the minutes I'll review them any discussion all those in favor of the minutes minutes are approved we also have a recommendation letter for 545 South Main may I have a motion to approve the recommendation letter so now open for discussion any changes to the letter and any Corrections okay all those in favor okay recommendation letter is approved moving right along we have a second recommendation letter for 1,100 South University Avenue may I have
004a motion to prove that recommendation letter that is now open for discussion any changes to that recommendation letter okay all those in favor that recommendation letter is approved now we're moving forward into the Design Review Board bylaws draft Alexis do you want to walk us through that essentially the same as yes our records have the lead last reviewed and approved that bylaws two years ago so attached are the same carried forward our attorneys office is also doing our their annual look over in general the attorney's office has been on an effort to make sure that all of boards and commissions across the city have very similar bylaws and similar provisions our design review board bylaws are fairly new since we are a fairly new board but nevertheless the attorney's office is giving it a once-over
005right now and if we have if you have any changes we will incorporate both into them when we issue or issue the 2019 bylaws the bylaws go through the the membership of the board as established by City Council ethics and conflict of interest officers meetings one item that you may want to discuss but also no discussion is perfectly fine you know bylaws don't really need to be overhauled all the time but in the meetings section I'm not certain if we have any thing in the bylaws about the presentations of applicants I know that a previously I don't think that we really needed them the sort of opening monologues were kept it pretty brief but we've had one meeting where the opening monologue was quite lengthy I can certainly do and I had already intended on
006for from my end better coaching on some applicants about the expectations and the norms keeping that monologue to 5 to 10 minutes speak there is a can be a lengthy discussion period but we're accustomed to having a pretty brief monologue for lack a better term right and so we can put something in the bylaws or we can just more go keep on going with our norms up to you but other than that the bylaws are basically we're just looking for a once-over and if there is nothing to add or amend that's perfectly fine that we want a little more and we put a suggestion for five minutes you can say keep it brief but it suggested limit without saying you only got this much time and it would keep a timer on it seems like
007it's about what 10 to 15 minutes it seems reasonable well then while we go for that next year we'll work on just better coaching and then we can end next year we can wait but you need to revisit I understand I did a little well researched I wouldn't say but I did a little asking around the Planning Commission has very strict time standards and then a little bit awkward the his dart District Commission has something in their bylaws about which they rarely enforce but they like apparently they like having them in there something to point to if things get out of hand but they rarely enforce them because they don't feel they need to yeah it would be a little concerned if we enacted them didn't monitor it very much and then all of us
008hadn't raised a flag on someone when we hadn't raised leg several times before so it doesn't seem broken enough to fix at this point that some guidance and yeah I might not solve the issue and I I've started doing this little monologue in the beginning since we were being taped and I could just add to that as a reminder like you can talk to them beforehand and then I can just say that they'll present the proposed project and this should kept to ten to fifteen minutes you know or something like that and leave it kind of loose that way yeah yeah that sounds like a plan then we can revisit next year as well okay I had one another coming Tamra I'm the first page two paragraph talks about duties and I'm not sure we're
009doing this but it sounds like something that would be a good thing to do to report annually to City Council regarding the effectiveness of the design review process and make recommendations for any changes to the downtown design guidelines we yeah but yeah we've done that a few times but not definitely not annually I don't know if you made a presentation to the council I made a presentation but we have forwarded memos so that is to report annually doesn't necessarily mean be there but I know I think we've probably done it two or three times yeah but would be good to do it more regularly I guess but I think it has yeah I think through Alexis it has gone yeah annually the second part of it to make any changes to the guidelines they don't
010really want us tampering with the guidelines I it's the message I think we're getting right that is the message that I've been getting but I do have a little update about that well you do that's sort of that is the message that we had been getting okay well should we leave that in then and just aspire to it maybe not always do it I would leave it in and aspire to it also it's in code that it's in code I think that yeah that that's one of the one of your charges yeah okay okay yeah and I think we've been trying to make some recommendations and that's why yes update on that because it gets seems to get blocked or not blocked but just doesn't seem to move forward too much I think like to
011be a little more effective in that okay thanks thank you so we can vote on these now or we okay yeah all right because I need a motion to approve the bylaws as they are so moved okay it's open for discussion is there any further discussion on the on the bylaws so all those in favor of the bylaws as they stand hi okay bylaws are approved I'm the subject of membership though we were supposed to be a seven member board and right now we're only six yeah I don't have an update about that I am under the impression that there are some candidates that are being considered but they've not been shared with me but as you might know the way it works is you can apply to be on a board turn your application
012into the mayor's office and then the mayor nominates candidates and the City Council approves so I'm under the impression that there are some candidates on file and I would just have to assume that the mayor's office and the administrator's office are keeping that process moving but I will try to get an update and on a separate topic the bylaws say that the members have to be electors in the city of Ann Arbor and I am not right right it's not that I didn't want to be on the board but I just want to be upfront that neither my house nor my office are any longer in the city there is an exception that yeah yeah so maybe that just needs to be updated or s4 I got I don't know if you all got it
013but I did a was it a memo email memo from Brett Leinart about renewing your remember your membership on the condition if your I assume it was if your use the microphone if your Commission was coming to an end make sure you reapply and tell them if you want to extend it I got that I assume everybody we're all it's staggered your so a couple of us I can't remember who who's on which year but yeah I don't know when my turns out could you look up our terms Alexis and just email them to us when you have a very good chance because I think that's how we ended up losing Paul was his term expired and he didn't ask to stay on and I think you want to do there was a link to
014I think the mayor's office or whatever and I filed through and said that I would want to be reappointed but that was quite a while ago I'm not even sure I'm up for reappointment I don't know either yeah they just did as I understand an audit on all the Commission's and that's why it came up with Paul that he was not actually determine expired and then and you can only per the rules you think you was it ninety days once your term is expired to reapply forget RIA when I recall I believe that that same thing happened to me and I did respond and I do believe I received something in the mail confirming this is on the ledge estar but this is on the website and you can work your way through it and
015get to the design review board there's a board details tab and a member roster so mine is gonna expire it scanned down if you would on there sorry can you go back up yeah okay Gary so you're the only one and the missing role that we have is a contractor is that correct no now we have to landscape architect we don't have outhit laner Alexis my recollection is that we've in the past we've been asked we've had some discussion about suggestions if there are people that are applying if if people on the board here have some suggestions am I to turn them into you yeah I can be a conduit to that but the first step if you have a suggestion the first thing would be getting that person to apply sure but yeah and
016I think it's um like here under the board details this one it does say that there's currently a one vacancy and there's a button to click to apply okay I think it also links to these when you submit your qualifications and so forth to the mayor's office they keep it on file and so when you go to reapply I think there's an option to reference your previous applications that maybe I thought you know where we allow three three-year terms I didn't see any term limits okay you're stuck we have term limits on officer positions which we'll get to in a minute but I my quick scan is theirs although it's said that there are three year terms and they don't seem to be a maximum number of terms okay you said there's term limits for
017the opposite officers but it goes on forever you know yeah I'm just looking if there's actually yeah yeah no member shall serve more than three consecutive full terms full terms that's nine years no right we know three three years to be like the chair you could because it in that sort batcher it's a one-year term just to be an officer to one-year term to be an officer three consecutive I think you can be maybe ultimately you could serve four or five six and more than three times as a chair or the other position will be by steer however you can't do it more than three consecutive I think I've been cheerful so you might think about that for this ounds like it's your first year June 30th so you might think about a new chair
018and vice chair you've been I've been same well you can move up to chair you want to motion we do you think we probably to follow this we probably should and June 30th we should before June 30th we should sounds like we need a new new officers well it's on the agenda to vote for new officers today oh and yellow the blank yellow sticky notes would be for your vote to voting if we want to move on to which is the election of officers and if you just want to put on that sticky note through your nomination is for a chair and vice chair I believe that you have done it I don't know you might have to confirm but on your honor if you would have been chair more than three times I don't
019know about Milken Lee I've been vice-chair as long as you've been chair from the beginning I think we should I think we should be summarily thrown off cheering vice cheers yeah and then I can tell you what it's supposed to be I think I wrote on my sticky I'm sorry sound chair and vice chair chair and vice chair anyone want to express its short interest in doing so we have to do [Music] cheering booster council put somebody on and say okay does the does the mayor have a obligation for a certain period of time to appoint somebody or suggest somebody I don't know we would we we we really need a planner on this board that we've missed the last you know a couple meetings and Paul hasn't been here we've missed him yeah missed
020his role yeah why encouraging him to reapply but so he may be one of the applicants they're looking at yeah I would miss him to check with a business card I did yeah to see whatever he's a fine I encouraged him to apply and they never I will reach out he wants to continue I would be done in just a minute but while I'm tallying up the votes I have a few of them but just make sure that your contact information is correct on the roster and as you know these are professionals or something mainstream and their own tracks to come through there okay that's so does your statement paper in your place in front of you if you want to fill that one out do you think of just one suggestion cuz you switch
021the order of the fax number and office number because some people may have a tendency to look at the first number well that's why I'm wondering whether she didn't take the fax long I mean I don't have one anymore I think we have one that goes into a computer or something I'd be perfectly happy if you took the fax number totally offline yeah you can take my 20th century technology baby there's one state agency there's a federal federal agency that you have to use a fax I can see where we definitely need a seventh member this might have a tie a two-way tie for a chair and a three-way tie for vice chair so in light of that I'm saying just vote again oh let's switch out okay yeah bill received builders bill Kenley three
022votes for being chair and dick Mitchell receive time I'm withdrawing my driveway Laurie I should be more formal board members singleton bore member burns and board member Perkins I'll receive two votes for being vice Jim well I'm withdrawing bylaws do not address tiebreakers I'm company very comfortable having voted for the old yeah I think the current chair should make it make a decision I make it I can make a decision I think so it's not a bylaw Satine chair dick Mitchell let's go with Jeff Perkins for Vice Chair unless I get kicked off because I don't live here okay in that case I'll be Laurie yeah well it actually it's great to have a vice chair because there's alright ok we're at the next III on regular bike business message from planning manager about master
023plan scope that's that's the one thing on the agenda from the email that I could not get that - I couldn't yes okay so I would direct your attention in front to the monitor in front of you the in a roundabout way to a an update about the status of our design guide language views and so forth the we went to the city went out with an RFP for a mess a new master plan and that went out in early February and it was due back March 7th and I we got on the order of 15 to 20 proposals come in that proposal said that the objective objective was we were seeking services for a citywide community visioning and master plan development process and the provider was to lead an extensive inclusive and innovative community
024engagement process to develop a new master plan that identifies community values milestones and prioritizes implementation steps to achieve a viable sustainable and accessible City and it had some required components in them including one talking about design guidelines and then this is a snapshot of the RFP and I put a red box around what we said about design guidelines the master plan is supposed to include a review of the current architectural and design guidelines and incorporate a review into the scope of services and consider extending the guidelines or portions to other areas of the city or revised for the city so that's that's sort of where we stand at the moment that's like a holding pattern on our downtown design guidelines but we hope to address them through the master planning effort and there's an item
025going to council in May on funding the this master plan work we've got proposals in and so we're looking to get the funding locked down in May so is this the proposals from like planning consultants yes yeah we got some I think I understand there was a smattering some national firms some regional firms it seems like it would be beneficial if we would once that team is selected and the processes in place if they would come to one of these meetings and we could provide feedback based on how we've been able to communicate and interpret your department's work in evaluating projects and so I don't generally speaking I feel like we've supported what's in the guidelines and then push to carry that forward but it might be helpful for the team to see how this
026piece of the process works in embedded and what they're doing I would assume that that would be a fundamental component of their work you know and not only reaching out to design report how is this parse that's working for you but for example the historic district commission reaching out to the Zoning Board of Appeals the transportation commission that you know I would feel that that's a minimum step yeah yeah if nothing else this is a stakeholder you you are representative of stakeholders and you maybe even considered a focus group why they reference the AARP communities initiative I don't and I know that it was um the you know it's a one of the components that said the master plan or your scope of services must address the city values Community Engagement master plan consolidation etc
027it had to address Aging in Place had to address design guideline so because the National Association of Homebuilders has an entire program devoted to Aging in Place specifically and you can get certified in it by taking the courses and we do a lot of it in our company because there's just so much of it that goes on in Ann Arbor so I don't know who looks at those kind of things but if you could just maybe bring it to Brett's attention I will I think that um well I know that Brett did put together the RFP so I'll make sure to mention it to him yeah I have a question and moved your next page where they had the red outline the analysis will include consideration of extending the guidelines or portions of them to
028other areas of the city what would that imply would there be some kind of we had a few zoning items that we but if they were extended they did more elaborate guidelines and other forces would there be review of compliance or kind of functional we provide for the downtown would that be expected to move into other areas of the city as well I think they obviously need to be fleshed out I read this as and knowing that I know a criticism about developments that we get is but it's just so ugly and we get that downtown and we get that everywhere or this is not the right character for this established neighborhood so that's my guess is driving toward there is no mention in here a form-based code but maybe inserting elements of form and
029character in an architecture you know we don't currently have any regulation that say you have to have a pitch drew from your residential I don't know what the outcome would be but I but that's my interpretation of what that would is driving toward and if the process moved toward something like form based code the code zoning review process through the site plan approval would be what catches or doesn't yes chat those issues because as the ordinance that got passed I think it was last year like one of them was something about the knee wall and amount of glass and there was something about Florida floor Heights on your first floor that's a ordinance yeah where yeah more than just downtown so yeah correct yeah I'll get to that okay but that might also be I
030know this says extending guidelines but maybe no I'd like to continue trying to push to create ordinances out of the guidelines that are you know that could enhance design where we find that it's something that we do want a little more teeth in and that's where you get into the form based code which is not the model in the curtain that would be a big shift yeah we have tiny elements of it currently but we don't have a form based code but we have a thing here and there which tries to shape the development downtown only I think just to be honest to expand that very far would be very dangerous in Ann Arbor where the kind of eclectic mix of things is part of what lends it richness and when you see form base
031coat applied in places you tend to see a lot of uniformity come out of that and I don't think that's probably appropriate here but it would be tricky yeah to make it successful okay then I say the next item on the agenda was a is a little overview or review maybe a catch up of the unified development code and the site plan review process so I'm going to switch over for a second and just sort of give a little intro to this we'd asked Alexis to put this together because sometimes we've got applicants coming to us that maybe have places they're building a certain way on the site or stepped it in a certain way and we are asking them to do something different and then it turns out it's because of the the zoning
032downtown some of us were down here and maybe more have more understanding of it I don't do a lot of work in downtown Ann Arbor so I thought it'd be helpful for a little review so we could understand what the applicant is dealing with in terms of form and zoning code so this is a condensed version of some presentations that were done around this time last year when we were working towards adopting the unified development code and what we did was we repealed nine entire chapters and then parts of the tenth chapter and we adopted a new chapter 55 unified development code some of the new features were it's a single chapter format most developers had an architect's and just designers have assembled their own book as planners did of a binder with all ten
033chapters in it that's what we had but you would but you that was no there was no one-stop shopping you had to do that yourself and that if you happen to be looking for zoning you would find zoning you would find area in placement and land uses but you would not find parking and site plan and natural features and landscaping and buffering so we lumped it together it was an effort not to rewrite it in the sand you know change nines to tens but a consolidation and a reorganization into a unified development code we added a use table we had previously had just lists we there's an index a navigation bar in the circle this little example clear sections and subsections terms are terms that are defined are capitalized and that's laying the foundation for
034having a links and clickable and you can hover you can't do that now but you can hover and get the definition in the in a enriched digital document we've added some graphics I wish there were more but some is better than what we had it was none this is the table of contents for it and there are the eight articles ghost from starts with general provisions down to definitions and then of these eight articles pretty much three perform the meat of them glossing over the first two the general provisions that's the legalese stuff that most just you don't know one but a lawyer probably needs to read that article to or the zoning districts which give the intent of which layout these are the districts that we have these are the intent of each one
035but there's not much regulatory material there article three are the use regulations over on the side is an example of the youth table you can the uses are listed down the left hand side the districts are across the top and this article three tells you answers what can I do with my property what are the permitted uses and are there any youth specific standards that you need to abide by for the uses article four are the development standards answering what do I need to do what can it look like what what how can I build this what does it have to look like that this is the article we give the area placement parking landscaping and buffering streets and access meaning how many driveways stormwater management natural features signs lighting fences and then Article five
036are the administrative bodies and procedures how can I do it and who would approve it we list out who are the bodies Design Review Board is listed what are the general procedures things that everyone needs to do specific procedures depending on exactly which type of permit that you need how to get that approval and then any amendments or modifications at the beginning there's a summary table which we didn't have so like sort of an at-a-glance kind of thing oh and that's that so so that's the document that people are that have to use people who have been around this is sort of an aside anecdotal people have been around for 30 or 40 years still complain that it's different and they can't find anything about any relatively new user says that has no complaints whatsoever
037I can't imagine it any other way so chalking it up to a success back to yeah so in the in the UDC and I believe you have sort of bad news it's not in the packet do you have a section of code yeah yes you do I do not but no matter I will pop forward but yep it has a lot of blue on it blue tables no it was fine okay I know what it says but there this is these are the four pages that really are are unique to downtown and starting with section five seventeen point six that's the downtown character overlay zoning districts we don't have character overlays in any other spot of downtown but and that's what gives the the building massing standards and that's where we have a little element
038of form the base zone ngey 1 or D 2 provides the abuses that you can do in the two districts and the total mass the 400% in the d1 if they are or 200% if they are in the d2 and different section offers the premiums but that's where how big can your building be in terms of sheer mass and what uses can you put in it and that's in the base district but the character districts that starts to shape to shape the form and in it it talks about what is the street wall minimum and maximum Street wall and it is slightly different for most in the various character districts what is the total height that your building can be in one district we have a maximum diagonal because we want we are prioritizing the
039slender buildings there and then and so we we are introducing elements of form about what how you shape that mass that you're given the next table there and section five seventeen six bead are the building front setback standards and that doesn't it doesn't go by base and it doesn't go by character districts there's a separate map which I did not include but I can pull it up but there's a separate map that designate each Street and is a street a primary secondary or front-yard Street and so you're required setback is based on your Street designation and then see is what we just approved lat last year 18 months ago or so building design requirements on primary and secondary streets and there's a section a talks about or I'm sorry I think one it talks about
040the applicable to all I think it's the building materials and what everyone has to do on the building materials and then the next section is the talking about the minimum maximum well I can look it up for sure but talks about the knee wall height the transparency and so forth so these are the and this is in code these are the these are the minimum or maximum requirements that the designer has to hit when they're proposing buildings downtown does this unified code contain all of the approvals that a person would need to get our board planning historic district when I was on the board of the Contractors Association we were asking for something like this for years and just couldn't ever seem to get it off the ground so this does that that I'm really
041happy to see yes it does not and we had a very good reason for leaving it out but no it does not do HDC yeah because I think that HDC doesn't regulate use and they are a separate they are they are entirely separate people are subject to zoning and HDC there any requirements that may have some questions not related to downtown that might have gotten changed when it when it was unified we did it um I have always described this it was about 98 percent reorganization but there were there was about 2% of substantive change and we made great efforts to call out every bit of substantive change that we were doing we changed the definition in terms but however but in terms of procedures no no procedures changed there is different wording in for
042example some of the permit like zoning permit you used to be called the zoning compliance permit we made it more intuitive to zoning permit we also reworded it but we have the same triggers but we wanted it to be much clearer about what the what you need what work needs is only compliance permit zoning permit but procedures didn't change things that changed were the big one was for the definition of floor area and floor area ratio and we were much more specific about what counts and what doesn't count that's the question I have and if it's it's a question that's not related to downtown should I ask you after the meeting because it is it may be sure yeah we but we did about that and we can get into a more that's fine we
043felt that we had to they'll make a substantive change to that we previously had a definition of non residential floor area and residential floor area which were fine in the 60s when the entire zoning ordinance was driving you to absolutely separate your uses downtown was not a mixed use district downtown was business and office but modern building we have a lot of mixed use and it was completely unclear how do you classify a mixed-use building so we that was we didn't just arbitrarily decide well we just need to redefine floor area because we feel like it there was a real need to redefine floor area so that we could actually enforce it and and work with it it's specifically about our 1e therefore it doesn't really yeah and that's what we did we took pains
044to also break it up and be more specific and chunk it out we there's a definition of floor and then there's a definition of floor area and then there's a definition of floor area ratio so for a building in an r1 II I can tell you what is what is floor area and what would can tribute to the floor area ratio but but there is no floor area there's no minimum or maximum FA are in our 1e so I can tell you how to calculate it but it doesn't matter what the percentage is because there's no minimum or maximum you're probably talking about 2,000 square feet and whether there's a basement or not yes because that is cause that our money as long as we can talk about something else our money was intended to
045be 2,000 square foot or less houses and that was fine fact I think maybe Polti is building some that maybe before this unified there's another parcel I'm involved in that suddenly the basement counts so you start talking about configurations of houses to get a 2000 square-foot house and include the basement as part of the square footage it doesn't make a grain of sense it makes a real problematic house I think it it's partially defeats the purpose of the r1e but does it make a distinction between a basement that is for utility purposes and a basement that is finished and made level nope nope unfinished basement counts as part of the 2,000 square feet that's not right that's absolutely yeah that's it I wanted to talk a little bit about the this table I guess understand
046that it looks like one of the things that I know we had talked about as a definition for Street wall I have the full go here so I'll look up the okay um definition I think it is defined if it's capitalized in the code it is it's all caps it's a bigger camp than the other camps yes there's the length of a premesis abutting one or more oh no sorry that's street frontage street wall the height of the street wall portion of a building as measured in stories above the street grade and there's a figure I'll pull it up on the screen because I guess I would like to see that definition expanded because we've been running into things where it seems like the street well the second story of the street wall is really
047just a screen and there's actually no building behind it and it really has a different character than if you had windows and a solid building it just seems like that would be something we could improve on because I think we're getting some some buildings coming out of that that are not really in the in the spirit of the street wall yeah you're it is the is the goal to just have a mass at a certain height at the street or is it to have an activated facade at a certain height at the street and that's kind of what you're getting at right yeah exactly have some been built no have come before us like I forget that they address William and Main Street was the marking and the first two floors of parking is a
048challenge for something like that yeah the definition it's unfortunate it's cut up on two pages but the definition of street wall is the exterior face of a building that fronts a street between the street grade and the street wall and then the definition of this there's a street while height definition and then here is the graphic that goes with it and I'm seeing right now that the figure the references and the actual label don't match I was going to say that one on the right is so it looks like all herders of downtown street wall Heights are two stories minimum and there's some that you can go up another story yeah Main Street town and East you're on three and four I believe are the choices always a two-story minimum some districts are three some
049are four and then there's this offset that is at the top of the street wall is required as an average of five feet so that again that means you could have half your building at ten feet and half it right at the property line is that yeah so that could be interpreted sorry there's a in the O's woman Oh pqrs I mean I mean I think part of our role is to challenge the applicant just in making sure that they're thinking of all the opportunities and I feel like sometimes they'll come in front of us and say well we can't do this because we're meeting it you know we're up to our ffar or where we can't push that facade back because of zoning or we can't pull it forward because of zoning and just
050think the more we understand that with a more we could maybe help them be more creative in their understanding of it yeah some of it is set the the minimum maximum street wall height you have to have an offset but it is an average offset and you can see you know you can see here you can have a portion of the building with zero offset it can go straight up for say 12 stories and you could have to deeper because the offset you know the averages count really based on area it if you the length of your building with a 5 foot if I feet deep if you're supposed to have them just say 100 square feet of that that's what and the code sort of explains that 100 square feet is how much offset
051you have so if you can have a built a portion at zero the other portion would need to be at 10 feet so at 10 feet so like you know half of it need to be 10 feet and that would work so that is a place where the design would be work can come into play in terms of FA are the code does not have a minimum FA are so when folks say I can't do that because it would impact my FA are that's not a zoning argument that's a profit margin argument and I my personal opinion is that it's something else that a design review board there you can you are in the position to advise the Planning Commission and the council as designers you know it is important for the community to maybe
052a Qi to take some FA are off which may impact profit but you know you're you're not and your honor then I can like advisers you are design advisors so I would my advice to you would be to when they say well if minimum fer is not our purview design is our purview [Applause] and then we have the maximum building module length horizontal dimension and that looks like that's only on South you and several of them carry tone first Street and Liberty yeah I like to see if we have a graphic here we do there there's a nice graphic in one or two of our master plans and I know that I know what the intention of this was I feel like this is the one that is least well internalized and comprehended and well
053maybe even the Design Review Board can provide the most benefit to that one but if you think about Main Street and we are a very traditional platted Midwestern town and the rods and the chains so most most Lots on Main Street were 66 feet wide and so that we have the historic part of Main Street the the buildings have are generally 66 feet wide and if they have three Bay's than each Bay is 22 feet wide and it looks and you can very clearly see the individual components and if it's not three 22s it might be 230 threes and you can even see that when you when they combine two Lots but there was a real rhythm of and you can sort of see the underlying lot planted Lots just by looking at the facades
054of the buildings and this was an attempt to say even if your building is no matter what size of your building you should have modules so you can it is a more pedestrian sense of scale you can read the land read something about the land just by looking at the building and I know well I think you can find examples all over the map but that's what the code intention is is to get something physical about the building and I in explaining to people I say look at Main Street you can you can just guess how wide a building is just like seeing how many Bay's it is if you know that 66 feet is the standard a lot but if you look at the Ann Arbor news building at non-division and a non division
055it Huron you probably have no idea how long that building is because it's a solid granite mass and so that's what we don't want and we are getting buildings I would say that and so everyone is putting forth a number saying oh my my repeat is 40 feet or 100 feet so I think people are putting forward numbers and they're having articulation on their buildings I don't know if it's replicating a lot with but but nobody is having that solid monolith and I think this came up on a recent project and you brought it to their attention I think that was the the Washington why I was thinking of the Washington one with it where really the whole first floor was unarticulated I think there might have been a step you couldn't bear leave and
056see where the entrance lobby was for the residential and so that's a that's great today something to point to that says but they're specifically got guidance around creating a modularity that feels like the historic rhythm of the downtown and Williams very long on the Main Street side yeah I'm curious how it got to be 40 feet that if it's historic markers are just the number I don't know yeah they're they're earned are there any areas that would be within downtown I think there's such a dense pattern of existing buildings that it would be harder to apply but where we're actually would be setting a setback larger than what's required here to enable outdoor cafe space and circulation and a better module I know Grand Rapids for example has a very specific all new setbacks should
057a quote could accomplish 18 feet between the curb in the building face because that's what we know is a good dimension to get walkability Street trees and kambei space and most of our sidewalks here in Ann Arbor not big enough to support that feel that we have a very vibrant street life but we actually don't have as many Street cafes as you would have if we our sidewalks could support them again it would be difficult to add but there have been some districts that have had a lot of new changes and didn't have the benefit of something like that to guide it yeah we do have if you look in your excerpt the front pack the front setback standards table its tables 17-7 so it's on page 65 so under the primary Street so we
058we can accommodate that but we don't require it and you know maybe this will come up in future discussions but we can accommodate it by saying the the additional requirements and exceptions for primary streets number 2 the maximum setback may be exceeded to provide 16 feet between back of curb and the street wall and it says allow for pedestrian circulation but that was pedestrian circulation while you have outdoor seating or those outdoor that's outdoor furniture and that says up so it doesn't say shall but it says EPS it up to so we have an exception where you can exceed that one foot maximum setback yeah and I think and as planets have we've been pushing it well we've been pushing it all so it's like you know learn from learn from mistakes we there's also
059an exception you can have a 20% plot of your frontage can be plaza you can push your building back a portion of it for a front things I think that the consensus in the planning office is the foundry is not not a bad designed building but it it probably is too close to the road and it would have been better if it was pushed back so that there are 16 feet it was there's another example not this is just downtown character district you can push it back I was thinking about the project it was it must be in the whatever that industrial corridor is that the south the buildings on south mean like one we had they had whatever that the building is called now they wondered they wanted the yard they wanted more setback
060and I think they did add the green project about a planned project which was not a good solution for that they wanted more and they we were flawed oh you got to keep it closed which was wasn't good to keep it so close even what they did they wanted more but yeah so that should be extending could be extended out in my point two more districts than just the downtown yeah so the so we can accommodate those but it doesn't say show but that's not the downtown district it is yet well the yard was we reviewed it sure but when you own out when downtown I'm thinking about the character districts isn't there the character that's part of the that's it's the first Street first Street character district but frontage is based on your Street
061designation I'll pull up the map to its truth okay and I was just reading the title in this downtown territory so I was assuming that was just the downtown district if that's all the districts that you can have that leeway then why did they have to go through the plan project thing because of a you know they might have been at six they might have been at 16 feet or something no something like that yeah I think they wanted ten this is the frontage map the red our primary streets so that's the you must toe the line you need to be new you may need to be at zero setback for the red streets the yellow are secondary streets you can be anywhere between zero and ten feet so you have to be close to
062the line and the green our front yard streets mean you have to be 15 feet back now that's yellow yeah so turn so you had to have it right up against the curb they could have been ten feet back where they were probably were ten feet I think they were and they may be do they want 15 or 10 or on a row I'd have to look back at the numbers so when we had that building that we reviewed at on Washington behind the Michigan Theater yeah they came back three times or came back twice and we and you had encouraged them to go to that 16 feet and I think they they didn't they did it was great yeah but that was the planning staff encouraging that so it when when the yard was
063done were you not you weren't able to it sounded like they ran into planning issues with that yeah with the the Washington Street one it came right on the heels and there's sort of morphs into the discussion about the process but what we get at Design Review Board its architecture heavy and we often get some sort of site layout but it's often not a site plan and your boundaries and everything sometimes it's not to context it seems weird and I don't think any one of us so I can't blame anybody but I don't think any one of us realized just how close the standard that's what they call the 420 they're the 405 South Main Street the former DTE property main between William and Packard and they they came they had priests and middle meetings
064they present it to the Design Review Board and their architectural drawings look good it looked like a decent streetscape that seemed fine based on the based on what we had and then when they came in for a site plan and provided their Alta survey their building is eight feet from the William Street curb because there is only eight feet of sidewalk between the William Street curb and the property line and it's not an enormous deal when that current building is set back 200 feet it's you want it to and feet and so now they are they are not pleased with the city for when we are saying you need to provide us with 16 feet and different planners working on that I don't know the the today's status of it but that that shook out
065just as the Washington Street project was submitted to the Design Review and so that's when I said I'm going to ask you because I didn't realize I needed to ask but I'm going to ask you how many feet between the curb and you're building face so like learning learning from but that's where it and because I know like I think we all made the plan they've looked that that other project is like their streetscape on William and main that they're renderings looked nice but we didn't no one knew that actual dimension so I learned to ask the dimension it is a good point that we often don't get detailed site plans we get a first floor plan that may have a tiny bit of context information yeah and and to your point it doesn't say
066our code currently I wonder this one think would there be changes in the future that result out of this it doesn't currently say you shall provide 16 feet it says you may provide 16 feet right so I can I'm happy to answer any more questions loop back to what to whatever the last thing that I was going to mention is our site plan review process you have this printed in your in your packet as well but as you can see we provide a lot of information to applicants and we go through the process it starts with the design review board as you know and we move through the all the meat-grinder citizen notification or or resident notification larger projects we folks have to have a meeting before they submit lesser projects it is the applicants
067responsibility to notify that they've submitted a project the city still does our public hearing notices at the end when it's coming up for approval but this our citizen notification requirements are for front-end to let people know there is a project coming or there has been a project submitted and then we move through the review process what the staff we advise people you you submit your project and then we just go around and around until we get it right the Planning Commission does not want to see every iteration or every draft they would like to see an approvable project never real and practically speaking never does the first submittals go to Planning Commission sometimes the second submittal goes to Planning Commission most often it's the third revision that goes to Planning Commission so I tell people
068you got a plan on to revisions that third submit all don't don't plan on one and done and then most projects I'd say I'd say maybe 5 or 10% of projects can be approved by staff and another 5 or 10% can be approved just by the Planning Commission but that does leave 80 or 90 percent of projects must move on to City Council and that is not a state requirement that's just that is our preferred policy and which is in code and moving on to council does add about six weeks to that to the review process but I feel like we do give I'm not sure if developers believe us when we say that these are our required steps I think a lot of times they're very developers are very optimistic folks but either way
069there's we have a lot of information on the web or out there to help them through the process and what I have been telling folks about the design review board and the two meetings I say if you your first meeting satisfies the requirement for going to the design review board once and it's in code that it must occur before you submit your project to go to the design review board I tell them then for that second meeting it is your choice if you want to do a second meeting before you submit that's okay but if you also you'd like to submit your project and you'd like to do a second meeting while we're doing that first or second review or we're still working in house that would be acceptable to that you're not required to
070complete that second meeting before you submit and the way the timing works out and the deadlines it gets closed it's within a week or two the second meeting that someone has for a design review board might be just one or week before or one week behind when they submitted their site plan in this there's no significant to do this there's there's no suggestion in the design review board piece here that applicants are offered and encouraged to come back more than once now that was probably inappropriate to throw that in here but someplace in the process it would be good rather than us summarizing and when they come in and go really I'd like to come back another time yeah the next time there is that we've done this periodically but should we do it again
071the next time we have a light agenda or no designs do we want to go over our application materials and the field okay can you explain why it takes six weeks to go from planning it's the it's the it's the approval cycle that council established the language I typically use with an applicant after they when Planning Commission is given their recommendation is I have prepared all my paperwork I've made I've written up the resolution I have gathered all the minutes and the staff reports and put my package together and I have submitted my request for you to be on a certain agenda and but it takes a couple weeks for it to go from my desk to the planning manager to the area administrator to the City Attorney's Office to the administrator's office and then
072the city clerk if they wanted to set it up so we could I mean in most communities it's a month before you've gotten your it's so that your approval from Planning Commission is a contingency of being able to get to that next meeting yeah it is um it is it is strictly administrative policy it is not there's nothing in code or state statute that has that that amount of time that it is it is how it done when I years ago earlier it wasn't six weeks it was more like two to three because it does take a little bit of time to set the agenda and the packets go out the the week before a meeting so you know we can't you have a little build up time it has not always been this way
073but this is the current policy there's also some communities don't send 90% of their site plans to their City Council's they only send the legislative decisions such as a rezoning to council and the planning their Planning Commission approves by right type lands but it is our councils policy not to do that I believe it even came out in a recommendation from some outside consultants and like the redevelopment ready program said it was it's been suggested before to change our approval procedures but city council has elected not to you have to be allowed to be called the relative redevelopment ready community yeah as part of that City Council review time period doodoo notifications or advertisement of the meeting thank you some of it is public noticing but the public noticing is more in the order of
07414 or 21 days it's not six weeks and I don't see Historic District Commission on this is it because it's strictly site plan or I mean historic district Commission project site plan approval right yeah yeah they do need to do but the there is no I don't believe I don't have to verify but I don't believe there are code requirements about timing of HDC versus the site plan process meaning I think you can you can you need to obtain both approvals but there's nothing in code that says which one comes first and which ones come second it is in code that the design review board meeting must occur before you can submit a site plan I remember that project no I'm not even remember the street it's I think it was the Old Fourth Ward
075and there was a project I was on a historic district Commission quite a while ago ten 15 years ago and proposing a very big development you know the road that T's into power center Glenny and they had to get permission to build in the district and they also wanted to tear down two small houses that were there traversing and somehow they were allowed to go through everything they went through Planning Commission and they went through City Council and got all their legal documents and all their you know financial documents and then they came to the HDC and the agency was not happy with it and people who voted against it were no longer you know the membership on the Commission was no longer renewed it was a big deal and then they turned around and
076sued the city for the procedures and and also won in court and on top of it they were allowed to tear down the buildings without commitment to build the project and the project never went forward and the buildings are gone there's still working on it they believe they submitted for another amendment to it to tweak it but how they were allowed to go through that whole process and then kind of come back I think they I think they did it on purpose in order to put pressure on the Planning Commission to or the Historic District Commission to approve it because they knew that was going to be the hard part and so I thought they would I think they thought that they could put a lot of pressure on Historic District Commission by getting all
077the other approvals and then saying see now you're the only one holding us up I wanted to bring up something that we had talked about at one time and I don't think we've followed up on once is that one of us following a project through and an attending the Planning Commission and attending the City Council and you know if that would be beneficial it puts probably I would guess a little bit of pressure I so depends on the petitioner you know it we could be an advocate for them in front of Planning Commission if it's a project we think is really well designed or if it's one that we're not as happy with to just make sure to reiterate what we've said in our recommendation or or not a not recommendation letter and then there's
078some that are sort of we're hoping that they'll do make some improvements and that could also be reiterated and I'm not sure why that's sort of fallen by the wayside and if it's I think you know I know it's difficult for you probably because you don't know when they're going to Planning Commission always and like who's assigned it's hard to sort of hard for us to keep track if we're not around but when they go to Planning Commission they have to submit the building drawings similar to what they show us I'm curious if there have been any examples where people just didn't take our advice weapons the same or they made drastic changes to the building before it got to planning do you have any sense of that um in terms of drastic changes I
079can't I just don't recall many doing that a few more I think just didn't take the advice just thank you but we're sticking with what we've got because I'm not looking for a way to create for myself another couple of evening meeting yes but maybe since Planning sees this stuff before it goes to Planning Commission if you thought or somebody in your office thought that either they they disregarded our advice or they made drastic changes to the project before it went to planning then you could just tip us off let me give you know figure out somebody to attend that meeting I will brain I'm already thinking like what I've even preparing for today's meeting I remembered that and in the you know staff staff updates we had the sort of a MANET manager's update
080about the master plan scope terms have I'm like probably should do update about projects that have gone that might have gone I couldn't think of any that have gone in the past two to three months but how can we be better about that notification and some things that come to mind if you if we if I just rather than wait till a design review board meeting if we just send all board member email saying these items are on the upcoming agenda also we we CC some people on every staff report depending on whom we can meet for downtown projects making sure that the you copy of the staff report that the DRB is cc'd on staff reports I will keep mulling I'm open to suggestions as well I think it would be good to I
081know we had a meeting once with members of the Planning Commission I don't remember how many people were there but certainly a number maybe we could do that again does have a have another meeting with them and just talk about it because me I don't know if it wouldn't be beneficial or not you know I don't know if they discuss our recommendations that much in the Planning Commission or if they just get it in their packet and we've talked on and off over the years about having some kind of joint Planning Commission meeting design review board and we never did it we did yeah I think it was being driven by Planning Commission's thoughts about bringing some items into the ordinance about following the meetings because the the minutes are pretty good and in our
082comment letter is pretty good and then the petitioner has a chance to respond in the comment letter and and so I think a planning Commissioner can read the history and and see if it's if it's been found or not it is available yeah it isn't a part of the packet that gets to planning you know so they they read it I'm sure I'm sure so what what do you think Alexis would be benefit enough showing up at Planning Commission meetings um I I I go back and forth I'm not I'm not certain I'm not certain how I feel I think there's some pros and cons on the one hand there's a thing to think about be the perception that you are advocating for a project and at least as the planning staff I am I'm
083a reviewer I don't advocate for or against either one it just it's more of a black and white does it meet the code and the master plan parameters so but that it's just a perception but also other other disciplines don't but don't follow a project know their their stuff is in the packet there but there are some times that the planning commissioners to have some questions and it doesn't come out you know that our final results come out in the the minutes and the recommendation letters but the discussions and the discarded ideas don't come out and you know that may be beneficial I don't know it it's sort of a you know it you can probably predict the projects that would benefit you know when you see it but it's hard to quantify it so
084when the agenda goes out for the Planning Commission I presume it gets posted on the city's website are there links in there then so let's say yeah the project was going to Planning Commission one of us could go in there and open it up and see what the project looks like that's going to planning yeah exactly the agendas for the Planning Commission look exactly like the agendas for design any of you board and that file number is live yes there might be good thing for us to just decide our own keep track of it and if we see something so then can we talk about it amongst ourselves or is that something we should not be doing um Edda meet you and talk at a meeting at a meeting okay all right okay if you
085it's a service on the web but if you sign up for specifically for planning up there's a lot of updates that you can try that for about an email specifically the planning update one it's actually me I send out juice I send out two emails a month and only two with for the two agendas a month and about what projects are on what sounds like a good yeah all right it is hard to I'm not sure I've got a good recollection of which projects you know that we didn't like I mean for instance the one down first tree so that we got to they're remodeling that well they are gonna move siding new windows just the existing house he gave up on changing and yeah west Dan yeah I mean Ashley at first and it's
086it's almost done that was where they were gonna tear two houses down until that horrid to set of townhouses then there was that Victor's Hiroki building and Madison main and I got changed quite a bit due to a legal issue about you know getting their affordable housing that's hate increase and yeah so we got redesigned I think through the process but then it it stalled apparently it never did Phoenix was very involved it was the developer had challenged with numbers mm-hmm it was not a big site and yeah a lot of complications in terms of parking and levels height it's too bad it was a nice feeling it wasn't it was yeah and it it's kind of a nice were sitting there something right all right moving on I don't think we have any do
087we have any Planning Commission or any other communication we do not have any public here you