Police Task Force 9 -6- 18

001in plates and I don't have the roll call but I'm gonna do it from memory and tarski thank you so I guess this is the official calling to order of this Mira and Kansas Casas not be able to attend and we haven't heard from I guess the next thing is approval of this agenda okay it's approved the next thing on this agenda is the special presentation of City administer let administrator Lazarus and there are copies of his presentation up here I would suggest that you put those down there so they're not the late to comers don't walk up on me we're not used to this but if you wanna speak speak it I would also recommend if you're not going to speak you may want to push it so you don't have any unintended noises

002or comments picked up as well thank you apologize for the confusion in terms of the parliamentary procedure but you now become such a seasoned to expert at it you handle it very well so thank you very much I do want to thank all the members of the task force all the members of the public who have spent their summer on one of the most important things that we'll do over the next couple of years for your perseverance we we end the task force process at the same place you started which is here in Council Chambers and that's also a little symbolic of some of the path that lies ahead because it does involve councilmen taking some actions to implement many of the things that Task Force touched on one note is that I've used the

003community policing Commission name because that is what was on the council's resolution but you'll note that footnote that the independent community police oversight Commission which is what you adopted I have made sure the council understands that's the desire of the task force but I've tried to stay true to the resolution Council passed throughout my discussion so it is not an oversight or any intended slide it's just sticking with what what council had approved I have intruded on your time one last time to review the recommendations I'm going to forward to Council I do want to note that I provided these documents in advance of this evenings meeting there was a little short notice but my commitment was always not to put substantial pen to paper until you have finished your work so that my thought

004process was not cloud by any preconceived notions so the documents you see were drawn over the last Labor Day weekend there may be a couple of typos here and there but not only were they provided to you as soon as I could but they are out more than a week before the council meets next week at its work session I had asked the council to change the subject of the September work session to specifically address this topic because if we didn't do that this would have been handled as an item from staff into the wee hours of the morning at a normal council meeting and the public process the public intent is not served well by doing that so it will have the opportunity as we present essentially the same information to council next week

005then have public comment on it before council as part of their work session mr. Wilson and I were talking briefly beforehand if there are things you want to change to the normal council process for work sessions if you send that to major Terrill you send it to me they can propose to suspend change their rules at the part of the work session if you'd like to do that as well [Music] remember that as we go through this my task is always to provide counsel with compliant options things that meet the law much of what you talked about over the summer was aspirational in nature I told co-chair Saginaw that I think we are directionally in the right place in the line but there are some things that we need to address from a legal perspective

006as we move forward but those discussions shouldn't keep us from forming the task force so again I thank you for the additional time that you've dedicated I think where they say task force Commission I think I think I'm owed one given how many times that error was made during your deliberations so one of things it's always important is to guess it's better thank you very much she'll go to a session and someone will say I don't need a microphone I can talk loudly enough I am NOT one of those people so if I was wandered too far away from the microphone and there are problems hearing me please let me know so how do we define success the four bullets that are on this screen are essentially what was in the task forces worth product

007the draft ordinance that you provided we do strive to improve and strengthen police community relations I will go back and quote a comment one of your task force members made and that was mr. Sobel who stated that power does not give up power freely and that oversight is necessary so that proves not only that I listened but I listened with with good intent we are proposing measures that provide the oversight necessary and ensure the authority to perform that oversight lies in the hand of the governed and it is not abused we also seek to provide a voice to all those who have not been heard in the past and we want to ensure that that voice is strong and independent I have included this acknowledgement in the more detailed analysis that I provided to you

008and I will forward to Council I recognize that we are here because of the work of many people over a very long period of time that is and involves people from different organizations as well as from the community at large it is because of your dedication your commitment that we're at the point where we can move forward by forming a Police Commission that will ensure the positive and respectful relationship between the Ann Arbor Police Department and the very diverse community that it serves the other thing that was beneficial in having a primarily role of listening throughout your deliberations this summer is that I did take notes and there are some other actions resulting from your discussions and I want to touch on those because I think it's important that we all appreciate the investment of

009time was not in vain we have gone back and revised city policies concerning non-discrimination anti harassment and anti retaliation those have been reviewed they are in place city policies govern all city agencies including the police department the police department actually has been a leader in the city and increasing its outreach and engagement in trying to diversify its workforce across the city forty percent of the applicants for city jobs are from underrepresented minority groups so the city is committed to expanding opportunities and increasing the diversity of perspectives that work for your city government we have agreed to delay the hiring of the police chief until the Commission is in place we haven't wavered from that commitment there was a conversation at one of the task force meetings about maybe putting some members of the task force

010in in place until the Commission is formed based on how long that takes because we do need to move forward with our gonna chief but bottom line is we haven't wavered from that commitment one of the most compelling discussions was at several of the meetings where the topics of sexual misconduct came up as well as sexual assault we've initiated review of our procedures for addressing how we handle those complaints so that people don't feel that their veteran Fichte mised twice and we don't create barriers to reporting through the Human Rights Commission there was a review of our trespass forms and practices particularly on the form making sure that people know they have a right of appeal those forms are being finalized and that is strictly as a result of the discussions both here and at

011the HRC one thing that came up that I took note of if we really want to diversify representation on all of our boards and commissions we ought to look about look at providing child care or reimbursing child care it's something that we're going to look at not just for the Future Police Commission but also all of our boards and commissions what's not on there also is the concept of providing a stipend for youth member because they do for ago other employment opportunities by being here so that's something that I also want to look at my personal feeling as a stipend is not compensation there are ways to do that I don't believe reimbursement for child care would violate the resolution but I did talk to one of the council members about sponsoring a directive to

012have us look at and change the ordinance so that is crystal clear that there was our allowable cost so we'll bring that forward in the coming weeks as well we have designated an equity and inclusion officer in our human resources department one thing that we are finalizing is an analysis of traffic stop data based on race and as soon as that is finalized we will post it for the public to review and then finally there was a discussion about a Budds person the discussion here was really about data I think I've moved a little bit away from that but I do think the creation of a community Ombudsperson to handle different types of things that come up to overcome perhaps the intimidation people have been dealing with this city is an idea that has merit

013and we should look at so those are some other things that have come from your deliberations from your discussions over the last several months so I'm going to follow the resolution the council passed last February which created the advisory task force and outlined the recommendations that they were looking for and there were three main efforts that were outlined and they're up on the up on the chart it's really to look at responsibilities in the areas of education policing practices incident review reporting and evaluation mission membership ii was to look at the governing documents the laws the city charter collective bargaining agreements that impact the process that we would like to go down and the third is that we bring to council a resolution to establish the commission detailing the roles and responsibilities talking about the

014budget and staffing impacts so we'll talk about each one of those the analysis that i provided is a written document also contains a lot more detail in it and i would invite you to read that as well i've tried to keep it devoid of personal opinion when there is personal opinion in there i will freely tell you when when i put it in there but most of it is really looking at one council oust how we get there and how that gets implemented so our purpose it really this evening is to reconcile the task force's efforts with councils direction look at the impacts of the governing documents walk through the recommendations that i intend to provide to council and briefly talk about the path forward so the first item that counts last about was the

015roles and responsibilities in the areas that are shown specifically education policing practices incident review reporting and evaluation and commission membership and what i've done is put each of those items and the 20 specific tasks the council put in its resolution and talked about where in your document it's located and then some of the thoughts that i have on that so the first area is education and item 1 was to report and make recommendations regarding the training and education of the AAPD staff i don't know that the task force specifically addressed that item but I do think the Commission once it's formed should include those tasks in its annual work plan as I tell up through these tables by the way if there are areas where I mentioned that the task force didn't specifically address and

016that's not a criticism it's an observation early on in your process you made I think extraordinary efforts to try and engage with the community that took a lot of time and then as the summer wore on I think you found that time was fleeting and you may not have had the chance to talk about in detail the detail you wanted all items I think those things need to be part of the work plan for the Commission and that's why I have stated that it is not a criticism item to is to report and make recommendations regarding public education and communication efforts of the police department the city regarding police matters including police policies and practices I think you addressed that well in Section three three of your work product including the formation of a Youth

017Council which should be carried forward as a recommendation one of the things that the Commission will do is it will establish its bylaws and the bylaws governed the operation of the Commission so many of the things that you've talked about with how you look at education how you look at outreach can be put into you the bylaws and then specific tasks in the Commission's annual work plan the one thing that I did add that is to the extent that the work plan requires the procurement of outside resources city administrator will reasonably support the Commission's initiatives and to be honest I was thinking about mr. Wilson when I wrote that there is an intent that if a conference attendance makes sense I think that's reasonable I think sending eleven commissioners to a conference in California probably

018not reasonable so when we talk about reasonable it's a matter of supporting the initiatives and if there is some thought where we need to make some adjustment that's something that would be discussed on policing practices received periodic reports review pertinent data regarding policing practices hiring discipline budget staffing complaints training and compliance and the fourth item was report and make recommendations regarding policing practices so I combined the response to both of these items again section three point four you talked about the engagement of the Commission hiring not only short-term the police chief but long-term future leadership I think those are sound recommendations and I agree and concur with those section 3.2.1 of the task force's draft ordinance also recommend is allowing the Commission to review all the policing practices policies and making recommendations for improvements and

019I agree with that and I think I've committed early on that we will make those documents public the concern that the chief and I have are to the extent that those policies and practices may disclose confirmation confidential operational information I think we need to address how we would handle that the areas have always come up of concern there are things like tactics that deal with active shooters or terrorism and those are things that could put both the safety of the public and responding police officers at risk and there needs to be a separate way to review those mutual development of a strategic plan including community input again section 3.3 addresses that but I do note that during your discussions several members of the task force felt that it was not the role of the Commission

020to work with the police department on developing a policing strategic plan I do disagree with that I do recommend that the Commission work with a apd on its strategic plan including the aspects of its budget collaboration the requirement and that requirement be included in the formation documents for the Commission I think that's a critical part of providing both oversight and collaboration with the police department item six is to explore an on law enforcement Public Safety interventions that complement the efforts of the police department including things like crisis intervention teams although there wasn't specifically addressed in your work product there was significant public comment on those topics throughout your meetings and I think those should be included in the discussion and in the work plan for the police department to review its current practices and work

021with the Commission make some reckon some needed improvements item seven received police department policies and related forms for the purposes of review again that's in Section three two of your work product and this is the same kind of comment before that those procedures should be open except where there is the potential at jeopardized Public Safety and the police officers involved in their response and those are I will tell you those are very limited in their scope but I do think we need to carve that out items 8 through 15 address incident review and the comment on the bottom is that you did provide a detail process in section 3.1 the process includes steps and actions that are contradictory to statute Charter and some other requirements and I'll go through those as we talk about the

022governing documents on subsequent slides reporting an evaluation again delivery of reports and evaluations that support Commission recommendations you carry that forward in Section 3.2 the one concern I have two concerns really are one is the Commission's ability to maintain confidentiality is still something that requires some discussion because the Commission will be subject to the Michigan Freedom of Information Act as well as the Open Meetings Act I think we need to resolve those through collaboration I also think the imposition of mandatory response times needs to be looked at to the extent that they would interfere with operations but I also think that responses should be done in a reasonable timeframe item 17 is review of best practices and recommendations of using data to measure outcomes the task force did not specifically address the use of data

023analytics but the use of data is inherently part of providing information and reports and the discussion of the strategic plan I've already mentioned items eighteen through twenty address commission membership you've addressed that an article to I think as we go through the subsequent slides I've offered some things that are creative to address some of the counts the Charter restrictions as well as providing some things that you really didn't ask for but I think would be good ideas so the second was to the second charge from counsel was to look at state law the city charter the collective bargaining agreements and those things that will be within the authority of the policing commission and then to recommend changes that are necessary to receive to achieve the goals for the Commission be wary that you do have

024someone who my background as an engineer talking about legal stuff but I will do the best that I can to get through so this is the family of governing documents that we've had to look at we have the ability through working with counsel with the Commission to change all that the top two bullets on those and the bottom bullet is a collective bargaining agreement which the city entered into in good faith as a bargaining partner with the unions and there is more than one union they can those things those provisions can be negotiated at the time that the CBA is ready for renegotiation but there are also some challenges which I'll address under state statute so starting with the city charter which i think is the document that provides the most guidance the chart provides

025the council with the ability to create citizen boards and that's section 517 which I think you've referenced throughout your discussions the Charter states that the purpose of a citizen board as Advisory provides counsel and advice makes recommendations to the head of the department in this case the police chief a/c administrator and in all those matters Nair is that the council prescribes the city administrator the mayor and council members shall be privileged to attend of such boards and take part in their discussions I don't think this was an area of too much concern but it did come up during discussions and I thought I'd I'd make sure that I put that in there as a charter requirement then the last boat there is the creation of such board shall not impair the authority and responsibilities of

026the department head city administrator and council that's where I think the subject of reasonableness comes in areas where there is a concern about impairing operations impairing the ability to deliver services is something that needs to be addressed with the Commission I don't have any specific examples to use right now other than I've talked a little bit about mandatory response times and throughout there were times during this summer we talked about operational issues so those are things that just have to be addressed with the Commission as they come up the membership says under section 12 2 B says that an unpaid appointed officer point of officer to a board of commission has to be a registered elector of the city strictly speaking that means you have to be registered to vote in Ann Arbor and but

027council can waive that requirement by a vote of 7 members and on many of our boards and commissions Council has done that there are members of the Transportation Commission Planning Commission energy environmental Commission's that have members who are not residents or Laguerre registered electors in the city legal representation hiring of outside counsel is specified under Section 5 to see the contract is between City Council and outside Council I know that is counter to some of the aspirations that the task force put out but the so I think the selection of outside council by the Commission needs to be reviewed further with the city attorney contracting is addressed under section 14 of the Charter contracting Authority is vested with Council but the administrator may award certain contracts for less than $25,000 essentially the exclusions for things

028that deal with property but services certainly contracts less than 25,000 I can award it doesn't mean by the way that council cannot award contracts less than $25,000 either it just means I don't have to go to council for for those items that are less than that the administration responsibilities for contracts are vested with the administrator of the city clerk and the city attorney a personnel side charters to Elvises responsibility for personnel matters with the city administrator we hire staff they're subject to our personnel processes and procedures and we ensure that the hiring is done in accordance with all applicable laws these matters speak towards the subject of Independence of the Commission that were brought up I don't think complying with the city charter compromises that degree of Independence but it does provide for the support

029necessary for the Commission to operate some state statues we talked a little bit during a couple of your meetings about the Freedom of Information Act in many ways it's a double-edged sword for the Commission FOIA as an assassins is a standing subpoena on behalf of the public the exceptions to FOIA are very limited there are fines penalties actual compensatory and punitive damages specified in FOIA for non-compliance I mentioned that one of the meetings that FOIA the state law of Graf rests the final authority short of going to court with the chief administrative officer of the of a local government for determining what should be released and what shouldn't by practice the city has been very strict in its compliance with FOIA we have released documents if there's any doubt at all we have released them

030the areas that are restricted dealing with those things that protect identities those things that address ongoing investigations and then there's some other business-related come buttons to it but generally if there is concern that the city won't turn over records I think that is largely covered under the Freedom of Information Act it also though from the double-edged point of view there are questions as to whether the Commission can maintain confidentiality and whether in its proceedings it qualifies for one of the exemptions and that also needs further review by the city attorney Open Meetings Act strengthens the right of all Michigan Michiganders to know what's going on in government by the way they're lying Michigan citizens is taken from the Act I would expand that to community members but what goes on in government is open to

031the public public bodies are required to conduct nearly all business at open meetings again the restrictions are very narrow Council has elaborated on that by resolution requiring all boards Task Forces Commission's committees and their subcommittees to hold their meetings open to the public to the best of their abilities so as we talk about the ability to have closed sessions that's something that also needs further refinement the original the first blush appears that the task force's proposals concerning closed sessions do not appear to comply with OMA so therefore they do require further review some other legal matters we talked a little bit over your meetings about the collective bargaining agreement the CBA establishes the requirements for addressing complaints against officers including timeframes for reporting incidents and compelling officers to appear some of those buttheads directly with

032what it was in the task force's draft ordinance and that needs to be addressed while the police department can receive anonymous complaints if the identity is known the CBA requires the officer to be informed both of the nature of the accusation and the the of the complainants that's what's in the agreement officers must be notified of those complaints within 14 days of receipt and if we don't comply with that 14-day requirement it may preclude the city from taking disciplinary action and then finally compelling an officer to appear before the Commission for questioning creates challenges in terms of the CBA and most likely will result in grievances against the city time limitations this is just some really some general principle timely reporting of incidents is necessary to ensure fairness to all the parties involved and there

033may be some statute of limitations when you look backwards and again that requires some additional legal review as well last thing that counsel asked you to do was do you bring a resolution before them to establish the Commission detailing the roles and responsibilities describing the anticipated budget and staffing impact so the the items that have an asterisk on these bullets are things that are different from the task force's proposal 11 voting members is what I recommend that's consistent with what the task force recommended I did add two non-voting advisory members and I'll talk about that a second I do recommend one of the voting members be a sitting council member almost all of our boards and all of our Commission's have a council member who is a full voting member I think the benefit to

034that is it provides that bridge between Council and the commission that council's deliberations during its meetings the members of the council who sit on those Commission's are looked toward being the experts of what goes on in that Commission's discussions most notably that occurs with the Planning Commission but also with the transportation and environmental Commission's I do also recommend that one of the voting members be a sitting member of the Human Rights Commission there is that cross-pollination and many of our Commission's the taskforce didn't ask for that I'm not sure that the HRC is necessarily to welcome that but I think they will I think there is most definitely an overlap between the items of interest to the police commission as well as the Human Rights Commission's mission I think that's an important link as well

035there are nine members appointed by the City Council to advisory non-voting members at least one of which shall be a youth member designated by the Commission so my thought on this is as I mentioned before the Charter requires members appointed members to be registered electors in the city there's also been some discussion just as an aside in some of your meetings about having the independents to put some people on the Commission who independent of council so my thought by having two advisory non-voting members at least one of which is a youth member because they are advisory it doesn't fall under the requirements of the Charter I did talk to the city attorney about it there's a little bit of give and take but I think in the end we agree that this is something that

036we can do we have advisory members on other commissions it also allows you to appoint someone or to select someone as an advisory member who may not be resident in the city of Ann Arbor you talked about staggered through your terms for appointed members in the detail that I provided I think it's up to the Commission determine how they determine who has initial one year two year and three year term I also recommend that those who have less than a three-year a full term that service not count towards the limitation you've asked about with no more than six out of nine years it's it's really a little bit unfair to have somebody serve for one year and then not have the opportunity to get reappointed bump up into the term limitation so those are the

037recommendations some of the recommendations on structure this is taking almost verbatim from what was in article two there is one change that's here and one change that I want to add I do think it is overly restrictive to preclude some who has ever had law enforcement background from serving I think that can be important to the Commission's work I think people live many lives during their careers and sometimes early on you're a police officer which tends to be a younger person's career field later on many retired reformed police officers are very active in their communities I think it's an important perspective to have the other thing that I added after talking to the city attorney is adding someone with a legal background I think that helps address the concern about having access to a lawyer

038I specified municipal law because it is a very specific area of the law that requires some expertise so that will be in the version that the council sees with regard to law enforcement I qualified that a bit I think there should be a three year gap I mean three years is I'll freely admit that somewhat arbitrary but I think that gives people a little bit of separation from their time in law enforcement I also added that it's either as a sworn officer or a non sworn role directly engaged in police operations not everybody in the police department was a sworn officer some people have direct involvement Laurin officers who are part of the police environment so that's a little bit of a difference from what was in your recommendations this began a but the issue

039about registered electors and you mentioned and I agree that current city employees are not eligible for appointment roles and responsibilities again these are taken from your work product they'll have the authority to receive complaints forward them to the police department including developing processes to protect the identity of individuals as allowed under the appropriate laws the ability and authority to independently review resolutions of complaints and investigations produce independent reports that's of your findings sorry about that my charge is to ensure that you're provided with access to the information and the resources necessary for you to performance your your reviews consistent with all the applicable governing documents and to do so within a reasonable time and in a reasonable format you shall receive an a review recurring reports on police activities from the police chief the form

040and substance of those reports will reflect the community's interest and be based upon the information that is available or can be reasonably provided we talked before you'll have the ability to review community policing policies and procedures make recommendations that consider best practices make sure those best practices reflect the concerns and input from our communities just because something may be viewed as a national best practice doesn't mean it's necessarily a best fit for our community budgeting and staffing it is the city administrators responsibility to provide administrative and logistical support to the Commission including designation of a staff liaison to assist in scheduling and conduct of the Commission meetings I think we all found out how important that is and I will include the additional position in my budget request for the FY 2021 financial cycle we

041need to ensure that there's appropriate police department participation in all Commission proceedings as well I say the attorney will designate a staff attorney with appropriate and relevant experience the Commission will develop a work plan that includes its biannual goals and objectives as input into the police department's two-year financial plans and the police chief and the administrator will reasonably accommodate the Commission's resource request I spoke a little bit before about what reasonable means I do want to make one point here during one of your sessions there is a discussion about the City of Berkeley and there their budget I went into the city of Berkeley's FY 1819 financial plan and when you take out the salary cost and the support cost what was left in their budget was $27,000 for other things we all have already

042made the commitment of $25,000 to the Commission here the staffing cost are provided elsewhere in the city budget so I think we're consistent with what you had talked about throughout your deliberations path forward my intent is to bring these documents to council both next week first of October the resolution states that the administrator will propose a process for recruiting the initial members to the to the council and then council will decide how to do that I am very reluctant to tie councils hands and if they want to give some of their discretion to another city entity then that's up to them to do but at this point once council adopts a resolution to form the Commission Dan will come back and propose for discussion a process to you populate the Commission the Commission will develop

043its bylaws in its first six months which will govern how it operates as City resident City Council resolution requires that council approve those bylaws the Commission hopefully will be formed in time for them to develop a work plan that becomes part of the city's to your financial planning process which starts towards the end of this year and then atma or really not later than the one-year anniversary of its initiation the Commission will provide the recommendations for an organizational ordinance to be adopted into city code I think if the start council work session is next week Thursday here in Council Chambers seven o'clock the target date for council action on the resolution is their first meeting in which is actually October 1st the contract for the recruiter for the police chief is also scheduled to be

044presented in October the first task for that recruiter is to establish out now region excuse me I not reached an engagement plan and presented to Council hopefully in November and then we'd like to develop the approach to recruiting members presented to Council and the goal and a target date proceeding commissioners is January of 2019 so certainly like to entertain any thoughts or questions that you have as I told co-chair Saginaw I think the recommendations are aligned with the work the task force did there are a couple of exceptions but as I am compelled to bring you know compliant options to council there are some things I need further discussion and resolution I believe before an ordinance can be adopted thank you very much you're welcome I have a couple of questions let me just start

045with this and then let others weigh in there is some discussion and two parts of your presentation that deal with the anonymity and that is that there is an acknowledgement that there can be a complaint filed anonymously but then you go out go on to take into a consideration the collective bargaining agreement which requires all complaints to be reported to the police officer with the complainants name so what I'm a little confused about is how we square stating to a complainant that you have a right to file something anonymously but that your name will be provided to the officer to impose upon chief onus but the police department does receive anonymous complaints they do investigate anonymous complaints I don't I think if you can generally talk about how that's impacted some past investigations that'd be

046helpful but if someone doesn't provide their name then they don't provide their name well I understand the choice that the complaint it has I'm just curious when I read the word anonymous that means to me that's that it's it's done confidentially and the name is not disclosed when I read part of what you submitted you indicated that we didn't take into account the collective bargaining agreement which requires the city to turn over the name of any complaints that are made against officers I'm just trying to reconcile these two pieces as a matter of practicality that's if the name is known so one of the discussions we also had is while we can tell somebody they can remain remain anonymous or sometimes people call in a complaint and don't leave their name during the course of

047the investigation you may discover who they are whether you mean to or not so you can't always guarantee anonymity but your initial question we do accept anonymous complaints if we don't have a name to give the officer we state the complaint came in anonymously bookings have to have a place that has occurred a time that had occurred so you can do that investigation yes some foundational facts and when you know that your god that's gonna lead you to the name of the officer otherwise you're not gonna be able to get that report or investigated right right which is why I said sometimes anonymity can't be guaranteed I did the challenge that that in the apparent contradiction imposes is that the ability to impose disciplinary action on a police officer depends on the amount of information

048that's available and people need to understand and have a feel for what their comfort is with that but an anonymous complaint doesn't preclude us from reviewing what happened why it happened and how we can prevent it from happening again but I agree with you there is a there is an inconsistency there again if someone files anonymously 'm doesn't provide a name we will still proceed police department will still proceed with the investigation so I just thought of an example where so sometimes we get a third-party complaint all right so somebody observes an interaction between the officer and a person and they call in the complaint you don't know who they are we don't try to figure out who they are but we do look into as you said the specifics of the incident so we

049may know eventually the person that was involved or the person that was allegedly harmed by the officers behavior but we we don't do any investigation to see who that third party was that that called some mechanical questions you indicate that you've delayed hiring the police chief until the Commission is in place does that mean that the Commission members have been selected and have been sworn in or whatever it is that they do to become Commission members or are you talking about the idea of the PUD Commission has been ratified or put into a resolution or ordinance and the members have not been selected my intent in my belief is that when council adopts a resolution to form the Commission that'll be done in time for those members to be able to participate in in the

050process of selecting a police chief okay the only challenges when you look at timing is the outreach that will occur earlier as a recruiter comes in and starts to develop the qualifications the perspectives that the community would like to see in the police chief the question is whether we'll get the Commission seders in time one of the discussions really I think that co-chair swag and I'll brought up is there may be some workarounds on that to have people who have been engaged in the process up till now to continue that and I think I stated at the time that I haven't wavered from my commitment to have the Commission engaged in selection you know in the selection of police chief it may be from time to time and I say that by the way just

051because it was offered as a workaround not out of criticism do you indicate on the issue of resources you used Berkeley as an example we carve out all those who work for them whether they be investigators counselors or whatever makes up the bulk of their budget is it your sense that because that's not going to be included in the $25,000 or not to the full extent because there's a some two to three hundred thousand dollars is it your sense that the city is going to listen to the Commission the Commission is going to say to the city we need we want this is a a resource that we need we need a data person we need an investigator whatever those are I have two questions is it your sense that when we make that request

052the city administrator and the police chief are going to use their best efforts to do to provide those people from the city I think it depends on the nature of the request it's not my it wasn't my thought that the budget allocated to the Commission was going to pay for though right so my question is if the Commission says in order for us to do our work we need some staff and it's defined are you saying for the first year before we get to the next budget round that it's not contemplated by the city that the Commission will have any other staff that then you reckon then you mentioned that it's someone to help us logistically as the Commission is being formed let's say in the winter or early spring of 2019 we'll provide the

053support staff necessary it may mean that I have to go back to Council to add a staff member or amend the budget and if we have to do that we'll do that just just imperfectly was used as a comparison they have three people in the office they have an investigator they have a office administrator specialist and they have an investigator or they have a head office or I forget what the title is an investigator you know we don't really know at this point the extent we don't know of the other need we don't know what the Commission is going to ask for hesitant to hire full-time staff until we know that so there may be a combination of temporary staff there may be some outside consulting type worker contracted labor I don't know that's why

054the development of a work plan that will specify what the Commission wants to do really is helpful because once those tasks are outlined once the thought that there are X number of conferences a year then I think we can lay that out and put some money to it and it is a good faith effort and as it says it it will not be unreasonable it won't be unreasonable and looking at that ultimately you know the decision to create this commission and staff and establish its Charter is a policy decision of council so as the budget is presented to Council in april/may timeframe they'll have a chance to look and see what's in there as well and see whether or not the foreman structure meets the goals that they've established neither the Commission nor I think

055your observations that you gave us put any age limitations neither the the elderly or the young as a requirement or as a limitation of serving you know you really looked at substantive matters we really looked at what skill sets does the Commission should the Commission have and is there anything in your mind that would preclude someone that we have been categorizing as a youth to be a voting member president you define youth the Charter says you have to be a registered elector which means you have to be 18 years old I think it's an open discussion for the Commission to define what a youth is the reason for the two advisory members was to give the Commission the flexibility to bring people into the discussion that might otherwise not be able to do that and

056to do it at the discretion of the Commission Thanks I have a bunch of pointed comments a particular statements he made and then an overall comment or two there are some things that you said that I didn't think fully reflected the proposal and I'll just go through some points in order I guess page eight slide eight under education you said we didn't specifically address the item of recommendations regarding training and education of APD staff and 3.2.1 be explicitly addresses that so I wasn't sure they're on the next page you said you agreed to be with general beverage recommendations regarding policing practices and he said to the extent they don't disclose confidential operational information the city administrator crazy-good I mean we did make the provision for disclosure to the Commission in confidence which i think is

057appropriate [Music] they drew slide ten you talked about the discussion about the strategic plan and I want to be clear on that I don't think any member of the task force thought it was inappropriate for the Commission to engage in discussions about the strategic plan and 3.2.1 and talks about this specifically talked about the reports of recommendations concerning strategic planning I think what we believed a delayed and I think the the majority don't ask for it when long was to say that it wouldn't be wise to require the Commission to agree on a strategic plan with a police force because an agreement that forced agreement there is probably not worth very much and in a sense the co-op's the Commission puts in the position of having to defend the police department strategic plan I think

058it's better for the Commission to discuss the matter with the police department advise it criticize come up with its own recommendation serve me to engage in it but as a Commission agrees fine but I don't think forced agreement you said that with respect to like if I could yeah I don't think what I say there is different from that okay the next point said that we didn't specifically address non-law enforcement Public Safety interventions and that's it explicitly 3.2.1 II okay respect I understand I'll just say about me about of Florida is an issue was we're aware we we discussed it and it may be difficult to prevent public disclosure of the fact of a complaint if is a FOIA request although I think a Florida request probably would not be able to generate disclosure of

059the identity of the complainant you said we didn't specifically address the use of data analytics 3.2.1 explicitly talks about data collection I think we we probably have a disagreement about the nature of the the the proposal by the Task Force says explicitly in Section 1.4 that this is a would be a special commission under 517 a under 517 to be rather rather than merely advisory order 517 a and the the reason is I think that the function is the Commissioner broader than merely advising the the police department the the operational significance is that as you said City Administrator man council members are jobs attend the meetings of 517 a board and I think that's probably doesn't square well with the nature of this commission which is not well which is which has meant a functional

060independence from the city and I think Commission probably I will just tell you I don't agree with your reading of the subparagraph B so and I had talked about that with City Attorney so I think that's a good matter for discussion yeah something that the our proposal asserts that it's a 517 the Commission and the council can either talk that or not with respect to what a legal representation you said to be a selection and outside counsel by the Commission should be reviewed further with a city attorney we've had extensive discussions with the city attorney he sent his letter which pointed out the the charter provision to which you referred and we adjusted the the draft the proposal says that the council shall attain all actions such actions as it may be necessary to enable

061the Commission to exercise its choice of counsel so I am think that we really need to have further discussions on that I mean I think it's I think it's been taken care of I think it's I think everybody on the task force believed pushing from the beginning and I know but then I think everybody believes that it's important to have for the Commission to have it's only or it doesn't make sense to have a commission exercising oversight over the police department but the same lawyers who are causing the the police department and defending the police department are composite of the Commission and I appreciate the mention of somebody with municipal law experience on the Commission and and I agree that that would be useful but there is it is not a replacement for having somebody

062yet to act as a lawyer before the Commission and and I have to say that from my own experience both for eight years on the ummm Police Department Oversight Committee where there was times where I felt their time for having something with expertise in whose the water helped but there was also a notable occasion where we got to go outside for advice and on this task force itself I'm one of the three lawyers on the Commission task force and I'm trying to figure out legal issues but I certainly felt that well you know there is no it's a very awkward position for somebody who is on the commission to be trying to be acting and has if you want the Commission to have legal advice which I think it needs I would just respond there

063is some profound and DIF profound difference of opinion on on the matter you raised with City Attorney and I think it's not it's something that is not settled not settled I'm saying yeah I didn't really expect that he would jump up and down and enjoy the at the idea I will say that oversight boards around the country have recognized the need for independent counsel probably hears several significant cities that had the operation I think we should get out of this get out ahead of this issue would not that put me in a position where it's taken advice from the lawyers who with with respect to the I'm just gonna continue to respectfully disagree and not argue point by point one because I think it's it's a matter that needs to be addressed offline and secondly

064am I trying to argue with an attorney is not particularly ride okay I don't need to be arguing as an attorney here on this but i but i guess i am saying from personal experience i think about it that sort to be effective can't be told well yes the police officers conduct was legal by the my attorney is representing the police officer or no you don't have a right to get that information by the attorney the attorney's office representing the information and that's actually i think usually pretty obvious to anybody outside the administration of the body i don't think it's as clear as as you say I mean doesn't say that the supervisor has to bring the charges within 14 days of receipt it doesn't say by whom I think the best reading of it

065is probably were seat by the officer or at least by the supervisor probably by somebody within the department so I don't think it's at all clear that receipt by the Commission would start the clock I imagine this my understanding is this it would be a matter would would be green I mean would would have to be resolved and even if the clock does start that doesn't mean that the Commission is compelled that would be well I agree with that state the complaint doesn't have to come even we provide the Commission and says and the Commission might say look there's a possibility that if we don't hand this over right away there's not going to be disciplined not ready to hand it over yeah I think the other argument the other point that that needs to

066be considered is the need and to the compelling nature of turning over criminal matters yes legal debate but the advice that I've received is that the Commission is an agency of the city therefore the clock starts when the Commission receives the information I think we agree that it may in my mind most likely will compromise the stays ability to proceed with a disciplinary may in our discussions with the City Attorney's Office one of the city attorneys one of the assistant city attorney said that they would assert the position that I just had but it doesn't start the clock but you'd understand that the officer was cert the other maybe up to the Arbor it'll be up to the arbitrator with respect to time limitations and you talked about you know the importance of prompt prompt

067review and we didn't we didn't provide any that there's no time limit and I think it's important to recognize that we were doing that with recognition that that a belated review would not involve discipline so so sure if there's going to be disciplined it's got to be on a matter that's been brought promptly but that we've said it has been that incident review may have lessons for the future whenever whenever the matters is brought so I think it's important to understand that in in context you have different recommendations from the task force on a composition of the commission and and and frankly I'm going to be I'm in the minority on the task force most of those I don't have a particular problem I do want to say that a voting member of the City

068Council members a voting member I've got some hesitation about that and I do think this not all commissions of the city have a member and it's not required and I think I want to say that that we provide we recognize that the default provision is that members have to be voters and what we've said is that adoption of the the ordinances we've turned in by seven members would it be self T away from I think that would be effective I think yeah yeah I understand your point of view yeah okay don't agree with it yeah it's more generally the border but I I agree with you that we don't know just what the Commission is going to be I think we're in a different situation from from Berkeley and who knows what it's what's going

069to be like but when you say that well Berkeley all the staff you taking out the staff it's only $27,000 yeah most of what what they do is it need is his staff and the Commission may need may need staff and I don't think it's gonna be adequate to say that well you're gonna provide logistical support you're gonna provide this other folks I think just as with the the attorney if the Commission feels the need for investigators or whatever I think it's going to be important that as a functional matter and taking into account hiring and procurement practices the Commission exercises so you staff have to reside somewhere within the city of massage city's staff people hired by the city have to reside somewhere within it within the city administer well I mean you know

070as a formality perhaps but the question is I mean just as the city attorney I mean I my understanding is that when the city attorney makes a choice of an assistant he's gonna go through our procurement practices but but he's gonna exercise the functional choice and I think it's important that the Commission would be able to exercise the functional choice however we whatever the formality more generally I I think that I your urine if your recommendation and come before this whole process I'm gonna said well it's a little bit loose it's a little bit skimpy but let's see what we've now been operating for what five months we've come up with a very detailed proposal which you basically cast aside the in terms of the actual resolution that you're presenting just puts our proposal to

071the side and I'm disappointed by that because I thought that if you've got difficulties with any particular part you would say let's mark it up this way and this way and and adjusted like that and it puts the Commission then in the position of having to create bylaws from from scratch on matters of operations such as how review and I think that puts the Commission in a very difficult position even if we're gonna try to sort of start over with that with ours so I just I don't want to say gee what were we doing all this time but I mean it is it is a resolution the one that you presented is very similar to what you might have presented before we had look there are things in our proposal that I don't like

072there probably everybody doesn't like in it but I think overall it's a good proposal and should be used as the basis for going forward and I just find it disappointing that so to be very clear and very direct yeah my job is to provide compliant options to City Council that ordinance as it's written has substantial issues with areas of compliance with law many of those issues might have been able to be discussed if there was a more active engagement during the meeting process with the administrator and with the city attorney in the sessions that you have I think I cautioned you very early on that by not doing that you ran the risk of having something that is dysfunctional the end result is that I considered the work product the draft ordinance from this task

073force I considered it with an open mind I integrated those things that I think are ready to go forward the resolution to form the Commission does specify that they will consider the draft ordinance the word product from the task force so I think the time that task force members invested over the summer months was well-spent it's as I said at the very beginning of the presentation that spawned a lot of other actions that are related to fairness equity and diversity within the city both as it executes its core services and as it relates to this commission I feel I'm sorry that you feel that that the product that came out of this doesn't meet your expectations but I think it is well reasoned it gives counsel the option and the opportunities to build a commission

074that meets the needs of the community and there is no undoubtedly a lot of work ahead of us left to do so okay just say that I think we are compliant I've just gone through the reasons why I think we are compliant with the law and and I think we've addressed what the council asked us to do I think it is true that in in the meetings either you know the city attorney spoke very much however we've maintained consistent communications throughout you gave us some comments early on when when the template was originally presented the city attorney has presented comments which we did our best to to address the the shape of this thing has been clear for a long time there's been ample opportunity to say why don't you change this one you've changed

075that and that could have been done within the framework of the proposal we made but you've chosen to - I would disagree with the characterization may we hear from other members of yeah I I think we need to just go back to one of the fundamental issues which was discussed which is independent legal counsel and I'm really disappointed that we are rehashing this again I mean I at a very basic it's conflict of interest how can we mr. Postum are advised and vigorously defend the police department which is he should be doing that because he's the city attorney and at the same time if there is an aggrieved person who is who has been let's say agreed by the police department who has a complaint that has come to come to us for resolution how

076can he find justice for the victim as well as the police department our legal system exists we get good lawyers for both sides and you get the best point I I really think I mean this I'm disappointed at this point I do understand the Police Commission will not have authority to contract and Vienna lawyer I understand that but we should be able to get that lawyer send the resolution to City Council and City Council will hire that lawyer I know only City Council has that authority through the procurement process so a procedural issue should not be held up to say that we cannot be meaning the Police Commission cannot have independent counsel and III strongly disagree with you I mean because we have we have gone through this and we have spoken about this and

077at the very basic it's conflict of interest I mean he really can't have mr. Postum on on both sides of the equation I mean he cannot he absolutely cannot find justice for the person who comes who has a problem the police all grieved or victimized by the police for that matter if that's the situation being so that's one of the issues and unless I'm like totally reading this wrong slide 28 your bullet point number two basically says that the roles and responsibilities of the Commission and you you according to you we will be reviewing the resolution of complaints and investigations of the Inaba Police Department that they have already investigated so we are basically looking at their investigation have I just totally missed everything that we have been discussing the last couple of months where

078we will have investigative powers to do that I mean I mean it just seems like am I totally missing this huh you're not I'd like to hear from other counsel I mean the task force members because this seems to be like I'm sitting here in shock looking at this I mean yeah correct and investigates that's it and that is I think a big shift between the two approach I mean forget would that be a fair characterization yes yeah I mean it's it's like nothing happened in the last five months I'm just like shocked I just want to get cleared now it seems like what you're saying is that you're you've gone through and looked at this family of governing documents and and this resolution ordinance that was created this summer and decide and examined it

079and found the places where it looks like there may be a conflict and is that what you're saying that's correct and so does this mean then when the work sessions begin that both of these documents have an equal chance of being drawn from and the council makes the ultimate decision is that what's going to happen so the council's resolution forming the task force was for the task force to investigate the area specified in that resolution and then provide input for me to make recommendations to the council the path forward starting with this evening provides the opportunity for me to discuss what I'm going to recommend to council there is a work session next week I looked at the clock it took me about 45 minutes to get through my discussion in the normal council work

080session that leaves an hour and 15 minutes for open discussion I have led through the task force's draft ordinance I have discussed it with City Attorney's I've identified the areas where I believe there are non-compliance with the governing documents and I think there's an opportunity to discuss those in a public forum with the council I stated at the start of this evening that the public interest is not served by having this as an item from staff at 11:30 at night in a council meeting we specifically asked the council to change its schedule for its work sessions so they can have a deliberate process to consider public input and other points of view so it's a long answer to your question but I think it provides a transparent process I would strongly disagree that the work

081of the task force has not been addressed and has not been incorporated you know I have complied with the direction that Council has provided we have supported the task force's process and deliberations we have listened with an open mind we have brought forward things that need to be done as I said earlier separate from the policing aspect that are good governance and address issues of inequity through yell throughout the community and I believe that what I have proposed provides the opportunity for these there areas where there is a difference to be worked out without delaying the seating of the Commission I have no trouble with you sharing where you are obviously we don't agree with much of what you said and I and I think that's fine I think there is an opportunity again through

082the process we have established to have a discussion with Council in a public forum it's necessary that there be independent council if you have the same person representing two sides the one with the least power has been my experience as the one who is going to get screwed it's as simple as that and and I didn't read that in a book that's from experience it is also necessary that people be allowed to come directly to the Police Commission rather than only get referrals back from the police everything else that I was going to say has already been covered by the two previous speakers and I want to go back to something that that you have said umpteen times but didn't say this time we need to have checks and balances and the weight your presentation

083sounded to me and perhaps on misery missus hearing it there is no check what it is is the power remains with the police it has never been my intention to only look at this police department because my whole goal from the beginning was to have some type of template that could stand the test of time this doesn't mean what you presented and again I don't have any trouble with you disagreeing with us Chris that's the nature of the world but this is going to be a difficult time for us to get through all of this because it does feel that you did not adequately hear where we are where we are or where the community is and I need to go on record saying that for the record I just summarized a difference between receives

084and refers and receives and investigates it's my hope that under our proposal that yes we gave the the Commission's the power to investigate ourselves it's my hope that in most cases the Commission would be able to if there's a good working relationship then that's how it can it can be and then the the the Commission sees all right did they do a good job does something more have to have to happen do we agree and I'll say on the U of M Committee that's the way we generally operated and they were cooperative and I think we got everything that we needed but we did give the proposal we didn't give the Commission the authority to act before going to the police and apart from the police's if necessary and I feel that the record is

085important I'll just say I'm going to write out some of my comments a bit okay be more accessible for counseling yeah I'm concerned I second everything that has been said about the legal council I feel very strongly that the Commission needs to have its own Council we cannot have the same council defending both sides because the side with the least power as Dwight said is going to be the loser I'm concerned about the composition of the Commission and also how that is going to happen and who makes the final decision on that and is there something in the City Council a charter that definitely says that city council makes the selection the Charter states that the council can form boards and commissions the and that they they are a point of members of the council

086so it is not the police department it's not the city administrator who appoints members to boards and commissions so if I heard you correctly you would draft a proposal on how selection would be made making recommendations to Council I'm trying to understand how that happens what does that procedure I don't know what the procedure is I it was something that would have to be developed after Council passed a resolution do accept to come up with a recruitment method for to get to qualifying members of our community to serve on the Commission so how does that recommendation or resolution get to City Council I'm I'm really trying to understand who's going to be making the decisions about who sits on this Commission the City Council makes that decision and then how how do names get to

087City Council so I don't have a process outlined and and in my mind right now it's one of those things that still needs to develop I certainly would have a process that reaches out through this many of the same methods that were used to select task force members but I think there are also other ways and other means to reach out to other parts of the community as well but I don't have it have it laid out I have approached the writing of all these recommendations with an open mind I did not put pen to paper other than to put a format together until after I received your your draft ordinance so I wish I could give you a better answer right now but I don't have that I'm sure I'll get some thoughts and

088direction from Council as well then one other question would you in your thought process says entertain the idea of task force members who have worked extensively on developing a plan for populating the Commission or at least how recommendations are made to City Council I would think that would be essential so yes I have a question going off of what Jana it was just speaking about and then just a couple other clarifying questions so in regards to the composition I'm just wondering when you said that you've reviewed our proposal and then assessed it with an open mind and compared it to various laws and policies are you for the composition but I'm curious specifically about that but also as it is as an example did you I do disagree with our proposal in terms of how

089we came up with the process for both the process and the composition itself for who would be on the Commission or is it just that you were only comparing law and didn't necessarily review the proposal and come up with feedback for all of the content of our proposal does that make sense I think so so on the composition I think I've highlighted those areas where I have some disagreement I don't think there are many I think I've provided some options to provide the Commission with some latitude to have members who participate in the deliberations who are at the discretion of the Commission in terms of the process I it is up to the City Council to determine how they want to restrict or direct their discretion in identifying and selecting members of the Commission and

090I tried to make sure that that discretion was maintained the work product talked about the involvement of the Human Rights Commission I neither discount nor direct that I think it's up to the council to determine if that's what they want to do okay so more so I'm just trying to figure out if that is just if that is opinion or if that is written somewhere that you're just saying that what it states is that City Council selects and so you're not saying much further about the process whether you are in agreement or disagreement with our proposal I think in the in the more detailed analysis I provided I did state that I am hesitant to direct or restrict the council's prerogative in the process they use to identify and select members for the Commission I

091hear the concern that if people are hired the staff is hired by the city in order to operationalize this Commission and I just am wondering if just wanting to echo Rich's point of what it means to have independent staff and if there's a way that they can be on the payroll but that they are able to function autonomously and I heard you saying that they need to be a part of the city structure and so I just wonder if there's a way that they are part of the operation you know that they are operationally a part of it but not necessarily through but that they're able to maintain their independence since that's what this Commission is about I think my comments were more operationally logistically oriented as opposed to for discussing freedom of action what

092do you mean by that I think when we hire when we hire someone to work for the city they are subject to they bet they receive the benefits that city staff received they are subject to the same rules governing their conduct they receive the same protections under law all city staff receive I think as the Commission takes shape if you're asking would someone get fired if I disagreed with what they did the answer is no that person would have the independence to do the work that they need to do to support the operations there are a lot of things that go on that I don't agree with there are a lot of things that I don't agree with that I'm wrong on and that's why we have an open work environment in the city where

093people are there is no retaliation people do their jobs as best they can in service to this community do you know how Berkeley's budget is set up in that sense like are they not hired by the City of Berkeley they work through the the city Berkeley has a city auditor and the Police Review Commission falls under the auditor which falls under the city manager as I read there their structure and then they just wanted to clarify the timelines well the timeline for the input for the hiring of the chief you were just saying that the recruitment begins this fall and then and then in early probably January or February when the Commission is in existence that they would be giving input and I'm just curious if you have a sense for when you are hoping

094for the hiring to be happening for the police chief I think when we go through the process we'd be very fortunate to have someone in place by March because when you bat when you go through it we have to we're going to engage a recruiter that recruiter will then part of the engagement will be the plan they have for conducting outreach to define the attributes that we would be looking for in a police chief I think that process does require a very robust engagement process then it would be the actual process of the recruitment which would be finding qualified candidates internally externally wherever they may be they would you get into the holidays just from a when you do that so I would guess we wouldn't actually have any interviews until after the first of

095the year my hope would be that the Commission is established by then so that there can be participation in the interviews and then you know you go through a evaluation selection negotiation people you know particularly people in significant positions have to go through a background check and then they have to give notice and notice isn't given until after the background check so when you throw that all into the mixing bowl we'll be lucky to have someone in place by March and that just reminded me that for the bullet point about other actions resulting from the discussions are you is the equity and inclusion officer in HR are they a full-time new employee that you are hiring no it is it's it is a new set of responsibilities that a current HR staffer has her other

096responsibilities have many of her other responsibilities have been reallocated to other staff so this is a primary responsibility okay and then I I if I heard you correctly it sounds like for the presentation next week that you will be presenting essentially what you presented to us this evening and then there will be time for a discussion and I'm just confused why we wouldn't be able to present our work product I think it's up to council to decide how they want to run their work session I'm going to go back and I've taken notes from mr. Friedman's comments about where he states things are specifically addressed I'll go back and review that the posting for the work session was done today with the attachments I will make the changes either in the attachment or make notice

097in a revised presentation of where those changes are as I said the work sessions normally run for two hours it took me 40 45 minutes to get through the part that I had which by the way is really helpful to be able to do that this evening and I appreciate it because the intent was to provide as much time as possible for public discussion yeah it's up the council to determine how they want to run their there were there work sessions so we would be there's potential that that could change before next week I think or is that in like in the moment on Thursday night that they decided well again the council's Direction was that I provide recommendations to them I have included your final ordinance as an attachment on the posting as well

098I think out of respect and courtesy to the task force I'll go back and talk to me or carelessly what he wants to do and then he can work with the to see how to how to decide that the unfortunate part is that council doesn't have any and any other admin committee meetings between now and next week under the Open Meetings Act they can't deliberate separately so it would have to be something they decide to do at the time of the work session at least that's my thoughts on it so can I ask a question about that then so if counts so you're going to attach our already proposed okay that has been attached so given the amount of or probably the longevity of this meeting that's coming up next week is there the possibility

099of having a second meeting if all sorry having a second meeting if all is not gotten through if if it works that we as a task force is able to present our document and talk about our document rather than having an open public discussion what what would that look like and how could that well what am I asking a second meeting council has they continue the work it's up to them to determine whether they want to schedule an additional more accession they can do that I think that's probably preferable than doing this at a council meeting just because if for no other reason we have some council meetings with a lot of things that are going to engage a lot of public comment and what I don't want to have happen is this conversation to

100be stuck at the end of a council meeting late into the evening but the addition of a work session Americans sign off on that and have it have it added yeah my humble request to you mr. Lazarus is if you can there are sections of it what the resolution said with the resolved Clause of the resolution and all that that might have been helpful for the I don't know task force members for you to reiterate in the presentation but council knows what we passed right so maybe it might be a good idea for you to do your presentation and 20 minutes not 40 minutes so rich or Lori or both of them are misleading so both together they do a presentation of the highlights of work product instead of you taking because I think that

101should have been it's almost like flipped on the head I feel like that should have been the main presentation and maybe y'all should be attached I mean that's the way I look at things but then again what do I know so so it might be a good idea to make your presentation so we can amend the agenda for the work session next Thursday so you get 20 minutes and they get 20 minutes so they it takes a more balanced perspective and because the focus is the work product yours is a critique of that I understand that but you're pretty can't be the main presentation of it I really think that's not right okay thank you um just a quick comment really because I'm the youngest member I decided to speak last so that I could

102hear the collective wisdom of the rest of the task members task force members yes sorry because I'm the youngest member I decided to go last so that I could hear the other voices present of course the result of that is that I don't have much to say because they've said it for me however there is something that I do want to re-emphasize and that is that the Commission needs independent counsel having a lawyer playing both sides of the fence seems a lot to me like self sabotage and I know that seems like or can come off as harsh language but what you have presented before us today seems look to me like it protects the status quo and it be very clear what I mean with that is maintaining the power structure that exists in

103Ann Arbor when the very purpose of this commission in a nutshell is to balance the power structure if I could respond to the question about legal representation what is specifically written here is that the hiring of outside counsel has to be done by City Council pursuant to the Charter I don't think there's any disagreement with that there there may be times and in talking to mr. Poston but there may be times where outside counsel is required and counsel City Council CIL could could direct that that be done they take the advice of the city attorney but the authority to do it lies with the council as they as they think appropriate what I do say here is that the contract is between city council CIL on the outside Council SEL so the selection of outside

104counsel by the Charter is reviewed by the city attorney I think that's a matter if you would want to bring up two to the City Council you should do so but mr. postman and our discussions has stated that he recognizes there may be incidents when outside counsel is required the discussion again and it's not I'm not an attorney so I'm not going to get too deeply into it is that the privilege that comes from that then would accrue to the council and not the Commission I think that's an item that you need to address as well so that's what I've said about legal representation and our city attorney who is in the city attorney staff very often when a matter is brought not very often I guess when it is appropriate also recognize that when

105the city makes a mistake then they admit that we made a mistake and they do the right thing in terms of negotiating a settlement so the city attorney is not the police department's attorney it's not my attorney it's the city attorney and he is independent from the city administrator by the structure of the city government and his client is the City Council primarily and I think that's what needs to be taken into consideration in the discussion of outside counsel I think where you have and I don't I'm not trying to steer your thoughts in any direction but it sounds that the issue you have is where the privilege occurs and how that outside counsel is used the issue of standing outside counsel is a different matter and I don't know that I've had a discussion

106on that with with the city attorney I'd like to conclude task force comments and I'm not the youngest I'm and I'd like to open it up for public comment because I'm sure that there is something so mr. Lazarus I appreciate hearing from you about this my only regret is not having heard the points that you have raised tonight earlier what I want to make sure that is known for the record is that we are an extremely responsible and responsive group of citizens and there is a punch in my gut when I hear it described that we have produced something that is hoping to operate outside of the law or to push the boundaries of the law what I would like to say for for all of us is that we did agree to be aspirational

107but I think that there is a problem with the word aspirational and it's too close to dreamlike and what I would like to substitute is that we wanted to be as forward-thinking as we possibly could because this is what we feel our community needs and this is what we feel is appropriate and we had every advantage to understand the Charter the collective bargaining agreement you please correct me was the Charter written in 1905 Charter was siren calls adopted in nineteen fifty six or seven 1956 oh well that makes it a lot newer it's been amended periodically though so I guess my my point is that we want a commission that will operate within the law but we are not satisfied to not challenge things that can be looked at examined and altered to operate in

108a more forward-thinking way and one of the biggest changes that we would like to invite council to consider is that this commission not look like other Commission's so it is extremely important that the responsibility of creating the bylaws not be placed on this commission in its first six months that can be done with the help of a consultant that can be done with the help of any number of people who are skilled and familiar with how bylaws need to be written the the role of the first membership of this commission is to represent the community that has not had a voice and that is essential so there there are really strong parts of our proposal that I am worried will be overlooked and I think that if we don't have a chance to relay them

109at the work session that it will be a tragic devastating experience for all of us who have worked all summer on this and that's where I'd like to end and we want to work with you we want to work with Stephen Postma we have benefited greatly by working with deputy chief forsberg and interim chief honest and other members responsive members of the Ann Arbor Police Department so we we are a collaborative group for the record and can we move to public comment so we'll just how people line up and speak come to the podium if you can it is a thankless job you did it during the time you should have could have been with your families and enjoying summer and I can't really say I think you had a fun summer doing this the

110one thing that I think that hasn't been mentioned enough and it was earlier is one of the main reasons this happened is to make amends because we did have problems let's not forget that we want change what we wanted to be meaningful and if it's not meaningful what would be the point of all the work that you have done the community really needs you to stick by what you have decided would be best for us and I think independent council is incredibly important I also think it's incredibly important that you cannot be intimidated because mr. Lazarus didn't agree with everything you wanted I think there's a way to make some of what he wants work and comply with the law and also do what you have deliberated about there is no way you can really

111bring forward the true feelings that were in those rooms all summer long but it is really important that does not be for naught if we have any more incidents let's place this in the bigger context right now this country is in a lot of turmoil and a lot of it involves from inequality and racist institution behavior and we can pretend we don't have to deal with it but it will affect us eventually and having a mechanism to deal with it it's going to be incredibly important this is incredibly important work I want to thank you but I'm asking you please do not give up we have to get something out of this that can help heal our community and move us forward no more come on hi my name is Sabine Chang and I'm a

112member of the Human Rights Commission but I'm speaking on my behalf as an individual member of the community right now I just want to make a few points firstly I will note that there was a change made to the membership of the eventual Commission to make it so that the council member is a voting member and I think was referenced that that was the case and a lot of other commissions and boards like with a transit board or with some of the other ones and I think the most useful reference point for the eventual Commission is the Human Rights Commission I would note that we do have two City Council members both of whom are non-voting members so to the extent that the point was made that on all these boards and commissions like this

113there is a city council member who is of course a voting member I think that's one untrue and two like we have a perfectly functioning Human Rights Commission that doesn't do that secondly I just wanted to reiterate the point that I really do care about an independent legal council and I care about independent legal council being as mr. Lazarus just referred to as standing legal counsel I think that we can't just have situations where the Commission goes has to go and appeal to City Council for legal counsel on a case by case basis that wastes time like how time-sensitive situations especially when we're doing the run clock how can you really wait on City Council to approve that process to vet people to hire people to go throughout that all that casework especially if in

114the first instance that that's happened you'd have to deal with a attorney who presumably has to come up to speed with everything for the first time ever the idea that someone could get up to speed like that on a case-by-case basis seems like really absurd to me and to reader at the point that you specifically made about the idea of you know you know not being your own attorney one of the things that will excuse me about that the idea you know that embedding I mean to cipolla turning into the task force into the Commission itself a big enough is that like but there malpractice insurance cover and you've the people advice that they give like that's really scary like I don't think that there are personal malpractice insurance or any insurance that they get

115from their workplace would cover their extracurricular activities and that's a huge that's a huge problem I think so I think you wouldn't need a professional attorney that's working like working through their a job who is covered by a malpractice insurance and has a standing relationship with the the Commission so that they're ready to go when they're needed and not just someone who comes in on a case-by-case basis like patches in and out like wow like when city council decides that they're necessary and who sometimes might not even be the same person over and over again I think it's definitely possible to have that's a rich person be a member of a harbor city staff but be screened from the sort of stuff that you know that in our city attorney would deal with I think

116it is slightly unfair to say that the city attorney represents only the city council's interests and not the rest of the city's interests I do think that that's a really scary like a really scary conflict for me personally and I think that to the extent that mr. Lazarus is rapport and his own recommendations recognizes that a Hillard Hynes report says that the biggest problem the city is facing is a problem about transparency and weather and transparency and Trust I think that not having a different legal counsel independent standing legal counsel is really really poisonous to the idea that there that the public should trust in the whatever new Commission is formed thank you sorry my name is Sherman Spicer and I'm a former long-term resident of Ann Arbor an educator in Ann Arbor I really

117appreciated what micron pointed out about not wanting to maintain the status quo that is why we need the Commission and I also want to point out that when I hear the word compliant with law there's a presumption there that law is neutral law is not neutral in this country law has been created to maintain the status quo to make sure that black and brown people are kept in their place so I hope this commission will challenge laws when necessary the second thing I want to point out a knife I was very actively involved as an outsider to the previous search for a police chief and I do want to say publicly that administrator Lazarus was not the city administrator at the time at the time the previous police chief hiring occurred there was no engagement

118of the public that I knew of or that the City Council members that I talked with knew of in this selection of the search firm by the time I started paying attention I looked at the posting there was no mention of any problem with community relations in the posting the position did not even include Yosi required federal requirement statement and there was no involvement in who the recruiter was there were no postings in places like the African American Association or the Association of African American police officers the reason I'm saying this is because I think the Commission needs to be involved with the selection of the recruiter and with the development of the job posting because then when they brought the three candidates we'll only two had to be brought to Ann Arbor one of

119the candidates we had a chance to just talk to them in a social reception and another community member and I brought up the issue of the death of Ora Rosser and intrinsic racism and things like that and though and the candidate replied I didn't know there was racism in Ann Arbor sincerely and they flew this gentleman in to be considered so I just wanted to make a place marker that the Commission needs to be engaged before the recruiter is selected and so like quite a set and other people I so much appreciate your work and I think we need to say it's not just residents of Ann Arbor who are affected by the city and by the police department it's our whole community I'm Helen Fox longtime resident of Ann Arbor and former chair of

120the Human Rights Commission here in Ann Arbor I want to also thank the Commission for their incredibly detailed work and a wonderfully clear and explicit product and this is my concern that City Council members will not have the time to carefully study that document and have it carefully explained to them before it comes up for a vote I like the idea that soon we put forward about having a balanced presentation at a work session but really in 20 minutes I don't believe that you can explain a whole summer's work I spent many hours going over the final product and I had been at many of the sessions so those the listening sessions so I'm very concerned about the actual adoption of whatever whatever Commission comes into being even if the City Council does have the

121time by adding another work session perhaps of really studying the document that you produced what then are they really going to vote on I mean what you have produced goes to the City Administrator he makes his different idea of what it should be and then that goes to council and how will council how will council decide on all of these issues that you have worked so hard on I I said at the very beginning of this process when we sat around in a listening session and a big circle around the room that my major fear about this summer was that we were going to after all this work go back to business as usual and nothing would change I believe that the liberal variety of racism is very insidious and it's very difficult sometimes to

122to to see and put one's hands on but this is how it works this is how business-as-usual works so I want to see a clearer process for City Council members to really understand not only what you've done but why you've done it and then a fair vote on this thank you hello my name is Shirley Beckley and I'm a longtime resident of Ann Arbor and yes you were created because of the shooting of our roster and we became we came before City Council by protesting and talking and pleading and asking for some kind of justice that of course we didn't get I'm not surprised at mr. Lazarus report at all I expected it and I just want to say to you I appreciate your time that you put in and that's why I gave you

123such a hard time because I know what you're up against I knew it was gonna be difficult so I was trying to get you ready did you prepare so I do hope by it I'm going to echo the Quetta and the rest of the people and charmin and Helen Fox and I hope you tackle this as best you can and I want to offer a suggestion in closing maybe we need a commission that is not a part of the city keep that in mind thank you i'm leslie stanlon i'm chair present chair of the Human Rights Commission and first of all I can't tell you how much I appreciate what you've done I did not read the full report I just got it this afternoon the Human Rights Commission hasn't read it either we will

124we will say something but we want to talk about it we wanted to liberate all so this is very important I agree thoroughly with hell at Fox 20 minutes is not enough even for people who have been dealing with it for a long time your report certainly deserves a lot more than that we as a city deserve a lot more than that thank you very very much for everything you've done and you will be hearing from us thank you other entities that could work with the police I think that was discussed a lot like crisis intervention Middletown corner house medicated assisted treatment there are many many entities in our community that want to work closely with the police whenever there are problems and it should be a given everyone knew that order roster was receiving

125mental health treatment the police have been to her house at least five times why were there not mental health professionals there who could say I am a customer service person and I could have said hey aura are you okay can we talk but no one was involved in that situation even though we have that ability we are working in silos and regardless of what happens that needs to stop we have to address this so that we can evolve and move forward in equality is really making us unsafe here in watch not counting and thank you again for everything you've done it was nice to be appreciated I'm Pam dent I'm also one the Human Rights Commission but I'm speaking as a private citizen thank you task force members I was directly involved in the process

126that recommended to council names of individuals who had expressed interest in being a part of the task force also being part of the Human Rights Commission I'm familiar with some of your work but you've done a phenomenal job in a short period of time and you are all to be commended for the work that you've done I do have a few questions they are actually directed to in part administrator Lazarus and more for clarification you would mention that there's an equity and inclusion officer in HR and I'd like to know who that person is if you would hold up in the interest of being transparent so that whether we work with them as a commission or the to be established police oversight Review Commission I just like to know who that person is you mentioned

127a reasonable time for receiving any complaints and I'd like that to be more clearly defined so I'm addressing that to the task force and I do that for a couple of reasons I am a trained EEOC officer as well as HUD I work for the states of Ohio and Nebraska so I know what this police oversight Commission will be engaged in once complaints are forthcoming more importantly you are dealing with individuals and it's very personal for them even if the decision comes down not in their favor so when I say a definition of reasonable time your 706 agencies either stayed for Michigan MD CR or EEOC which is federal have timelines in place depending on the complaint or the allegation determines the timeframe that has been established and it mirrors law so I'd like for

128this Commission to have those same time constraints or similar in place ie 30 days or for example depending on the complaint it can be either 180 days which is six months or 300 days if it's federal like with EEOC so whenever the Commission is established I would like the timelines to be clearly defined so that everyone who may be involved has that understanding as it relates to the 14 days and again speaking to the timeline it says I believe and correct me if I'm wrong it says 14 days to respond after the complaint is received for the attorneys on the Commission and those in the room there may be some argument about that and I encountered that when I was a investigator for the states of Ohio and Nebraska because a smart enterprising attorney can

129argue equitable modification of timeliness so for those of you in the room it means that that time can be extended it either depends on when the person had knowledge of it or could have known whenever the incident occurred sold that could I'm just saying an enterprising attorney could successfully argue the timeframe so that's why I'm being insistent that we put in whatever the the specifics as it relates to the time that the individuals who may be affected clearly know what they're up against in terms of the clock running and then finally there was one other point I was gonna make it speaks to one that has already been addressed and that in at the risk of beating a dead horse I still want to make the point that I echo the sentiments of those who

130have indicated that independent counsel is necessary I've heard your comments on administrator Lazarus that it is at the discretion of counsel and with the input of our city attorney but I also echo the sentiments of those who have expressed interest that there be the independency and not at the behest of others because in my opinion and it is my opinion that is a clear conflict of interest and it is not something that would inspire or ensure the confidence the trust the respect that we as a community are seeking when we are trying to ensure that everyone is treated fairly and equitably having had the experience of doing the job that we are trying to establish for our city I know that it is difficult and many times you're not going to please everyone but we're

131still going to strive for excellence and perfection we're not going to accept anything less because that's what we have said we want our city to be and we have also said that we want to be in such a way a model that others will want to mirror what we do here so sometimes that means we have to be different it doesn't mean we have to be unlawful however and so I encourage us to strive for that excellence and perfection and to seek that at all costs and not to compromise in any way but also to be and I know we hate this word but I'm gonna say it compliant because we are law-abiding and we're not here to it's not of them versus us we are all in this together and the only way that

132we're going to make it is if we work together thank you are we ready to return okay we're adjourned thank you you