BAR Committee Special Meeting 10/22/2025

001Can everybody uh everybody see my screen here with the time bond logo? >> Yep, I can see it. >> Good. All right. Excellent. So, as Adam said, um we wanted to provide a little bit more of an overview tonight. We've we've talked about some of the environmental in a few of our sessions and few of our meetings. Um so, I've prepared this from a perspective of providing a little bit more a little more detail. It is still, I'm going to say, uh, a preface here, high level. Um, but we're going to talk a little bit more detail about the environmental conditions of the site. So, without further ado, we can just kind of run through the things I'm going to speak with everybody about tonight. So, as far as the environmental overview goes, um, we

002have a handful of target properties. Um, we'll identify those in a moment. Um I want to give everybody kind of a little little more detail with respect to the regulatory framework. How you know what what are the standards you know what what do we need to comply to or with with respect to environmental conditions. Um from there um I'm going to talk a little bit about remediation re redevelopment concepts uh and the typical types of you know remedial approaches we take on brownfields properties and particularly some you know in you know specifically the ones that we've either done or are proposing to do with respect to these properties and then we're going to walk through through each of the sites. the target property is going to provide a little bit more detail with respect to

003each of those um some of the the key highlights with respect to to the target properties and then we'll talk about kind of a wrap up and and kind of you know where do we go from here with respect to environmental so moving on so here we go um so these are our target properties as of now um respect to environmental um um I know a A lot of folks on the call here are probably aware of this stuff, but we'll just kind of start from scratch here. So, you know, the first three are the probably the most common 222, 230, and 248 Brownstone, which you see in the aerial overview here. Um, and all of these have a lot of history, right, from an environmental perspective. So, um, with respect to those three properties,

004you know, Thai bonds been involved with those since 2013. So there's been environmental assessments and targeted remediation completed, you know, since 2013 all the way through the present. Um, as you're aware, the town owns those properties. They were acquire acquired in the 2019 time frame. Um, 150 Brownstone is uh there's also been quite a bit of environmental assessment and remediation work there done since uh the early 90s and is is currently ongoing. That's privately owned. Um, and then I know the town brought up a concern with respect to the the old gas station or property and it's 198 to 200 because what we found in the records is some records identified as 198, some identified as 200. So for now it's both. Um but this this particular property on the the picture uh on the

005lower portion of the slide, you can see it there. Uh has a lot of environmental history actually going back to the uh 80s and early 90s. There's been quite a bit of work in terms of environmental assessment remediation done on that particular property and it's also privately owned. So these are our target properties. Moving on to the regulatory framework, right? So I and the intent of this is not to get into um you know certainly a a dissertation on you know the cleanup standards but it it is good for everybody uh to understand you know you know what are the standards you know what do we need to comply with so a little bit of basic understanding around that. So um so when it comes to cleanup in Connecticut you're dealing with the remediation standard

006regulations or for short the RSRs. Um so as as it's noted here the uh you know the RSR specifies standards for remediation uh for environmental pollution of soil and groundwater. So that is the key thing. They only apply to soil and groundwater. Um I like to think of the RSRs. These is like the licensed environmental professionals bible right we you know this is our guidance. This is the framework. um these are all the things we have to uh provides the tools and provisions with respect to how we clean up properties in Connecticut. Um so these are the standards we'll need to meet with respect to the target properties. Um within them there's multiple criteria and I'm just going to give a highlight of each of these. Um the direct exposure criteria, right? Um that is

007established for exactly that direct exposure. um somebody coming into contact with contaminated soil or groundwater or particularly soil. Um you have the pollutant mobility criteria. That criteria is designed to protect groundwater. So um what that deals with is substances that leech to groundwater. Um and then we have the groundwater protection criteria which is a groundwater standard. Um, and from there it's the surface water protection criteria which deals with groundwater that discharges to surface water. Uh, there's also something called the volatilization criteria. That's designed for contaminants that are in groundwater that can volatilize from the groundwater and up into buildings and spaces and things like that. So, those are the primary criteria. Um, there excuse me um, one moment. I apologize. I have a I have a just one sec. I apologize. >> Sorry buddy. Uh

008might have took should took the meeting from home uh from the office tonight and got my kids. So I apologize. Um let's just move on. Uh so the there are two particular factors here that everyone should be aware of. So you do have standards for both residential and industrial commercial criteria right so uh residential being more stringent industrial cur commercial commercial um being less stringent. So we're going to get to this in a moment and I know there's been some questions with respect to hey can you do residential can you do you know and we're going to clarify and clear those things up in a moment. Um the important thing to note is with the industrial commercial criteria, it can be used but it needs to be used with an environmental use restriction and we'll

009talk more about that in a moment. Um another factor that ties into all these criteria is is a you know what deep classifies the groundwater as GA versus GB. So GA groundwaters are essentially groundwaters that the state looks at and said are are essentially pristine. their um groundwater that is presumably you know suitable for drinking water purposes etc. GB groundwaters are are ground waters that are presumed to be already degraded from past industrial and commercial uses etc. Um, just worthy of noting all of our target properties are in GB areas, right? You know, which would make a lot of sense, right? The riverfront being an, you know, a former industrialized area. So, these are all GB. The GB criteria also sets forward less stringent criteria. So, that's the, you know, important to know. So, so

010the RSRs in a whole are the framework, the cleanup standards that we'll need to meet with respect to the the properties. um worthy of mention on the lower portion of the slide is um what's something is called the releasebased cleanup regulation. So um this is a very big transformation that's been undergoing for and if anybody on the call has heard of this or heard you know uh you know infamiliar with anything that's going on with deep um this has been in the works for the last 10 plus years. Oh. Um, the state of Connecticut is actually moving into a, you know, what they call a release-based cleanup regulations. They were adopted this past May and will become effective this March. Um, it is a significant transformation in the regulatory framework and how contaminated sites are

011managed in Connecticut. So, it's something we're we're looking at. We'll be tracking um seeing how it affects properties um you know you know both good and bad, etc. Uh but essentially the the what these releasebased cleanup regulations do is they require all spills and releases to follow the same set of standards. So um normally the RSRs would apply to sites that are in regulatory programs. uh what the releasebased cleanup regulations are going to do. They're riskbased and they're going to get rid of um it's as I particularly the property transfer program which has been along around for a long time will sunset when these regulations become effective. Um and that's a big deal because the property transfer program and there are some of our target properties that are in the property transfer program um essentially

012was a program developed in the 80s that was designed to you know provide environmental disclosure when properties were transferred you know certifying parties had to investigate them and clean them up. Um but it was extremely ownorous and um what it did was you know kind of it was like a don't leave any stone on turn type of approach and prove the negative that is all going to change now. Property transfer program is suns setting. It will no longer be applicable. There are sites that are still in it that will remain in it and need to still comply. Um but there will be no more sites entered in it and we'll be moving into this releasebased cleanup scenario come March of next year. So this is actually the same approach almost all the other states in

013the country, you know, take. So Connecticut is is is been lagging behind for a long time. This is a somewhat of a big deal. Um, and we'll be looking at this and there are some provisions, I won't get into all this now, that may be beneficial with respect to some of our brownfields properties and our particularly our target properties. New provisions um for compliance um that make things easier essentially. So definitely worthy of mention this is something on the radar that's in the very near future. So remediation redevelopment concept. So kind of in a nutshell as an overview, you know, what are the typical things we you know typical approaches we take particularly with brownfield sites and particularly with the sites that we're working with here in Portland. So um most of the time remediation

014by excavation. You see a photo there on the right side of the photo that's from 248 Brownstone Avenue um digging out contaminated soil from the former dispensing fuel oil dispensing island. Uh so remediation by excavation off-site disposal is very common to get rid of contaminated soil. Um another very very common approach particularly with brownfield sites and most notably because they're always filled with polluted fill is is capping. you know, you're doing that with buildings, parking lots. You're using the development to cap and isolate contaminated and polluted materials. Um, there's also the use of RSR variances and exceptions. So, the RSRs provide, I'm going to say, different pathways, variances, and exceptions to certain criteria when certain conditions are met. Um, so often a lot of brownfield sites like the ones along the riverfront meet those types

015of criteria and it's makes a lot of sense to use those variances and exceptions, right? Um, and then of course the use of environmental use restrictions. So talk a little bit more about that. Environmental use restrictions um, specifically they prevent specific uses or activities at a property or a portion of a property. So it can be an entire property or it could be just a portion of a property that is subject to an EUR. Uh it's essentially administrative control. It it needs to be recorded on the land records. There's deep has many different types of EURs and and so most notably I like to present the example of the residential restriction versus what I call inaccessible soil restriction. So Dan, I know there was some questions with respect to, you know, can you do residential?

016Um, so essentially um for our properties, you know, the answer is yes. Um, when you have a residential restriction, essentially you have a property where you uh exceed residential criteria, but you might meet industrial commercial criteria, but you're not using anything like a cap or something to isolate soil. So therefore you can use a EUR in the form of hey we're just not going to put residential here and we're complying with the industrial commercial standards. Um that's the main difference. So then we turn to something called inaccessible soil and that and the reason I bring that up as an example here is that is probably the primary provision which we will use on the brownfield properties along the riverfront. And what that does is use that capping scenario we talked about, right? Um so essentially

017once you cap something the criteria if we go if we go back a slide right to these criteria you see here the direct exposure etc no longer apply right so if you're capping it well now you can do whatever you'd like right you can put residential you can do things like that right because you're isolating you're capping you know the soil or contaminated material and the criteria no longer no longer applies essentially um So hopefully and we certainly could talk about it further clarifies a little bit you know respect to residential restrictions versus you know industrial commercial criteria etc. Um the other main category and which is very typical uh you know for brownfield sites like these is variances that are are are provisions within the remediation standard regulations. So they provide exemptions from cleanup

018criteria. You you might you have to meet certain conditions to take advantage of these things. Um, and some primary examples here include engineer controls, uh, wide, what they call widespread polluted fill and napp. And every single one of these is is, and we'll get to in a moment when we get into the sites, is something that uh will or we are considering implementing for the target properties. And we'll talk more about that in a sec. So, moving on to each each one of the sites here. So, we'll go one by one. 222 brownstone, right? You can see some we've able to assemble some, you know, in the lower photo there is a current snapshot uh of the site. Obviously, we know what it's used for now. Um the photo in the very top is a

019is an old photograph. We actually found an old photo album in the uh scale house of the building at 248 Brownstone Avenue. And we were able to kind of uh get old Polaroids, right? This is an old Polaroid shot and you can see in the very very background there's some buildings they kind of look yellowish in color. Well that's 222 Brownstone. Um so if you look at the historical uses and I'm probably going to sound like a broken record in a minute as I go through these brownstone quarrying operations. Uh and then in the 1950s uh it was asphalt and tar production. Right. Currently it's used for parking. We know that. Uh some environmental considerations. Um it's in the flood way. It's also in the 100-year flood plane. You're going to hear this over and

020over again in a moment. Um, with respect to the environmental conditions on this property, the investigation assessments have been completed. Um, there was something called a significant environmental hazard abatement that was done and essentially what that was is we identified some polluted soil in the upper 2 ft of soil. um and because of the concentration it required um it to be excavated and removed from the site. What we later learned with respect to that is it was just simply buried asphalt and tar right and we're you know with respect to the conditions on the site it was just part of the polluted fill but that's something that was done on that particular site. So remediation of the site is required because there is historic fill material um asphalt products, coal, etc. So when you if

021you were to dig in the ground over there, those are the types of things you're going to see. Um we didn't identify any other areas that require let's say remediation by excavation or something that we couldn't cap in place. Um so we have a very good handle on environmental conditions there. [snorts] Um the site itself was entered into something called the Brownfields Remediation and Revitalization Program, the BRRP. Um that particular program, and I'll speak to programs as I go through this, is is exactly that. It's a Brownfield's liability relief program. Um the town entered that program because contingent upon receiving funding from DECD, you have to enter a program. The BRRP essentially is a program that um requires you to perform remediation within the site boundaries and it provides liability protection for contamination that may

022have moved off or migrated off the site uh or sites. And and the reason that was chosen because those conditions were kind of unknown at the time and we had the Connecticut River there along these things. Um, and it we do know on some of these properties that there is some groundwater contamination that is likely moved off and is discharged into the Connecticut River. So, it it's a liability protection program. Um, the nice thing about that particular program, it exempts the property transfer program which is kind of moot now cuz as I said that's going away in a few months. Um, but it is transferable. So if you were to if the town were to ever sell these properties you or devel it is a transferable program. So really it was to incentivize development and

023remediation that particular program. So this particular site is in that program. Um it's an LEP lead program as most of these programs are. So someone like myself would eventually render what's called a verification, right? And that would essentially say um that the site's been investigated and it's been cleaned up with and is in compliance with the RSRS that we just talked about. Um we did submit a schedule for this and it's actually according to that schedule. It's due in 2027. A verification would come due in 2027 October. Um but like many deep programs the extensions are very typical in these programs because we see a lot of these sites do take time you know um to to to kind of reach that milestone. So [snorts] what's the remediation approach for this site? So it's it's

024you know it's capping right um you would you know hotspot excavations which were already done. We talked about that significant environmental hazard you know excavation that was done. So we're essentially capping this site because there's polluted fill there, right? Um to some extent it's kind of capped already with there's there's there's part you know asphalt there. Um we would use something called an engineer control variance along the bank of the river right. Um we talked about that a moment ago and that essentially is I don't want to get into too technical weeds right now but it it's it's a variance like you would have a zoning variance. essentially um we can do something a little bit different uh along the river because of the existing conditions there. It's a very steep embankment. So that's a

025special approval that would you know you would seek through deep um but that would alleviate the need to do anything like oh I'm going to have to go remove and dig out all the polluted soil along the bank of the river. So we use this engineer control you know based on the existing conditions um there'll be environmental use restriction right and then that widespread polluted field variance is something that we'd be looking at for for this property as well as the others which I'll talk about in a moment um and that will exempt certain criteria particularly the pollutability criteria >> [snorts] >> um you know moving forward um because otherwise if you did not receive such a variance you could not comply with some of these criteria and that would otherwise say, well, now I

026have to dig out all this material, right? And there's literally thousands of cubic yards of polluted fill across of all these parcels. So that's why these provisions are in place if you meet these types of conditions. So that's a snapshot of 222 Brownstone. A U moving northward, right, the lower photograph shows a current snapshot. The upper photograph shows um an older photo um you know of the site. It it was a bulk patrolling facility um you know from the mid1 1950s through through the 1980s. Um currently used for parking uh similar to 222 you you do have issues with flood plane. These are environmental considerations that need to be addressed with respect to development. Um, also similar to 222 is, you know, investigations complete, right? Um, but you have similar, you know, basically the same

027conditions going on here, right? You have polluted historic field material, um, which contains things like asphalt and coal and coal ash and slag and things of that nature. The only difference on this particular site is we did identify PCBs. So, um, with respect and and what's makes this particular site different than the others is that we identified PCBs in the soil. Um, I'll get to why that matters in a minute, but like 222, this is also in the BRP program uh, and eventually would be verified by an LEP. So, [clears throat] remedial approach here, similar, it's capping, right? We have sitewide polluted fill. We need to provide a cap for it. Um, the hotspot excavations would be to deal with PCBs that exceed concentrations over 10 milligrams per kilogram. The unique thing about PCBs is

028they're both federally and state regulated. So, you can only cap certain concentrations of PCBs in place under the RSRS. Once you get up to higher concentrations, it gets a little bit more difficult, etc. So there are some PCBs on this site that would likely need to be further removed from the site. Very limited areas. We did a lot of work on this site. Uh did a lot of sampling for PCBs so we understand what's going on out there very well. But that would be part of the overall approach. Um similar to 222 uh we have something called an engineer control along the bank. Um we'll have the EUR and we'll also have the widespread polluted fill variants. These are all mechanisms, some of them administrative, like I said, that would need to be used to

029comply with the RSRs. Moving on, 248 Brownstone. Um, no current pictures here, but those are some some cool old shots of the site. If you can see, I think those are like 70s and 80s era type uh you know, photographs. Um, you can see the tank farm there, you know, um, you know, heavy uses. go back to brownstone cing um asphalt and tar production uh bulk petroleum storage um you know it's currently vacant as we know um you know again similar to the other sites it's also in the flood way 105 year 500 year flip plane so I think the only part of the property we've talked about this is the very northeast corner of the property which is currently out of flood plane it's a very small portion of it um you know environmental

030conditions the investigations have been completed Um, we've completed a fair amount of remediation on this property primarily to dig out contaminated soil that otherwise we really weren't able to leave in place under a cving scenario. And that's because it was contaminating the groundwater beneath the site. Um, but also similar to the other properties along the the riverfront, you just have sitewide polluted fill, right? Um, it's in the BRRP uh similar to the others. And then ultimately the remediation approach here again similar we've already excavated all the contaminated so a lot of that we would think would need to be removed. So you you would be capping right and engineer control along the bank of the river um filing a EUR um and and a widespread polluted fill variance. The only difference on this one and

031just to be and it's why I'm talking about all these because there are some subtle differences is we'd be also seeking something called a napal variance here. Now nappal stands for nonacquous phase liquid basically means oil, right? So it's like free product in the ground. What you have on 248 Brownstone Avenue is if you if you go back and you look at the history, there was asphalt and tar production. Um, there is a lot of buried tar in the ground, right? So, if you're out there and you're walking and you break up the pavement, I always compare it to like a Twix cookie bar. It it's essentially a tar and gravel surface. Well, that same material was co-mingled with the soil and as the site was filled over years, you have pockets of this tar

032in the ground. And the tar is very interesting, right? because it it it kind of occurs in both a solid and a liquid form depending on you know if it's exposed to sun, what the temperature is, etc. So the napple variance is something that deep approves to allow this material to essentially stay in place. Um and that's a good that's a good thing because you'd have to think about well what would it take to remove all this material from the site? it would be an extraordinary effort and it would cost millions and millions of dollars. So that's another mechanism um under the RSRS. It's a provision under the RSRS which we can seek approval for. In fact, we've discussed all these things with D already um for these particular properties um you know as we

033moving them through the process. So moving on to 150 Brownstone Avenue. Um so Tybon hasn't been directly involved with this but know you're going to see similar similar trends here. Um you know brownstone cing as well that was done historically here also asphalt and tar production in 1930s as we all know it's currently vacant. You also have the flood plane considerations here. So I say the positive things is um it is you know the investigations have been completed on this site and there's been remediation done as well. There is also a plan um at least as we we were able to identify in the records um for you know a capping scenario there and you know they're they're looking at residential use and inaccessible soil you know EURs um right now they're currently monitoring groundwater

034quality out there so there's not a lot going on but there's been a lot of work done and environmental conditions are pretty well known uh this particular site is in the property transfer program um so it will remain in that program um until it is essentially verified. Um but this particular property uh is fairly well understood. So that that's a good thing. Moving up to Main Street. Um so as I said at the beginning of the discussion, this this site's got a small site, but it's got a lot of history. Is historically a gas uh was a gasoline service station. um you know in the late 1930s there through the the mid 1990s um I think I believe it's currently vacant but uh from some of my work colleagues say that it's uses overflow parking

035for the ale house next door um there's there's been a lot of work done on this particular property as well so um excavations there's been different remedial systems there's some fancy words here air sparge and soil vapor extraction and there's been chemical injections So pretty classic scenario here. Old service station, underground storage tanks, notoriously leaked in that era. You know, they still leak, you know, today even with current systems. Um, so you had soil and groundwater being contaminated here, but there's been a lot a lot of work done and the site has been substantially cleaned up at this point. um from our limited file review that we did so far on this, you know, there are some considerations, you know, today would be to, you know, you know, are there any data gaps? Then, of

036course, the building's still there. So, you'd have to consider hazardous building materials. If someone were to come along or acquire this property or you um they you want to demo the building, that would need to be considered. You see a photo there in the lower portion of the slide. That's a I'm not sure. I think that uh that might be from the 1990s. So, but uh tank coming out of the ground there, but very classic situation. But I said the good news is a lot of work's been done on this site. So, it's not like um it's, you know, the the conditions are unknown. So, very high level, you know, you know, what's the summary here? So, as I've been saying, as I've been going through this, um, the target properties, their properties of of

037concern that we've been talking about, they've all been significantly investigated. Um, one of the things that coins a site a brownfield is, you know, when environmental conditions are unknown. It's opposite here. The environmental conditions are very well known on all these properties. So, we have a good handle on that. Um there's been significant remedial progress achieved on on a number of these properties, 248 and 150 as well as the the property out on Main Street. And the other two that we just talked, you know, 222 and 230, generally speaking, they don't require much remediation, right? With the exception of development and capping, which we'll get to in a second here. Um all of these properties, with the exception of the property up on Main Street, are in cleanup. Bonafide cleanup programs are deep. So inevitably

038you would reach an LEP verification. Um you know with respect to that you're getting sort of a a bonafide cleanup with respect to you know the state you know the a lot of developers folks coming in oh it's it's verified by an LEP. So that's that's a good thing. Um you know instead of it um you know sort of being unknown or you know loose. So we're following the entire process. um remaining remediation um really is going to be addressed through property redevelopment. You know, everything that we're talking about why this study is being done um will inevitably be part of the solution for cleaning up these sites and demonstrating compliance with the RSRs that we talked about several slides ago. Um and that's going to be done through through redevelopment, through capping, through things

039like EURS, through things like you know various variances and exceptions in the cleanup standards. Um overall the next steps um you know is to continue to evaluate remedial strategies based on proposed development and uses. So as this study progresses and um that comes into better resolution as to you know hey we we're considering this for 248 Brownstone Avenue you know we can now integrate what needs to be done there with respect to complying with the you know the RSRs. Um certainly we'd be developing cost estimates to deal with that. Um, but we want to, you know, leverage what we've done, um, and look for opportunities as the, you know, as things progress to secure additional project funding that would help help essentially, um, fund those future remedial activities. So, I threw a lot at you.

040Um, open to questions if anybody has any. Nick, when you talk about uh engineered caps, >> yes, >> what are some of the options uh you know other than you know layering in large amounts of soil there, you know, geom membranes or that kind of thing can be done? >> So that's a great question. Yeah, absolutely. So the engineer control that I was referring to and actually the the aerial image you see there along the riverfront is a good is a good it's good to be looking at this right now. So you see the edge of the river. I know it's obscured by the the trees and stuff, but that type of engineer control you we wouldn't really have to do anything there. You would basically say that uh when we talked to Deep about

041this already, the existing conditions on the majority of that slope are so steep or so steep that really it would you know you or I can't safely walk across it. So that in in itself um sort of um breaks the exposure pathways right with respect to those criteria that direct exposure criteria and things like that. So we would be seeking an engineer control variance uh from the department that would say hey based on the existing conditions these steep slopes and the vegetated areas and they're filled with rip wrap um that you know no one's going to be able to walk on these things. or the majority of these things you it might require something like a guard rail or a fence perhaps or something like that. So that that's that's a unique example right of

042an engineer control. You could also do things where you're planting certain types of vegetation that would prevent human access into these areas, right? Like thorns or roses and you know so those are more unique when like when you're talking about capping systems. Now you can have things that you know some some engineer controls require what we call demarcation layers. Those are just basically like high visibility layers, right? So it's it's like a geo fabric geo geocynthetic fabric that is basically like like an orange or high you know highly visible that would just essentially demarcate where the polluted material is and then it would be capped with clean clean material. usually engineer controls and the reason you're requesting a variance is because they have they're more limited in thickness in terms of clean cover, right? Um

043there are ways in the RSRs where and the best way, you know, the best if you have you can have 4T of clean fill without having any kind of capping system on it, right? Uh an engineer control will allow you to to minimize that down to 12 in of clean fill on top, right? But you have to have that demarcation layer. You have to get an approval through the department etc. Some of the other options like the 4 foot option is self-implementing. As an LEP I can say hey we've excavated 4 ft of polluted material out. We put 4 foot of clean in and I don't need asphalt or a building there for that. So there's a lot of different scenarios, but generally engineered systems um which can be both require approval from the department,

044but some can be certified by an LEP and so they're sort of self-implementing um generally require you know smaller thicknesses of clean material and things like demarcation layers. The only reason you would put like an impermeable liner in, so if you imagine like a landfill has a impermanmeable cap that prevents rainwater from entering it, is if you have an issue or a concern with contaminants migrating through the soil and leeching it to groundwater. That would not be the case here for these particular sites. And taking a step back and I know this is getting it's it's very technical but the widespread polluted fill variance I mentioned essentially provides an exception to the pollutant nobility criteria. So deep recognizes there's parts of the state like this where you have widespread geog geographically polluted fill. they're going

045to essentially provide a pass and say that fill material does not require you do not need to comply with the PMC with respect to that and you got to meet certain conditions and you have to demonstrate that it does in fact do that. Um so but these particular sites we would be seeking that type of variance. Um and ultimately it really depends on what's done here. Do you need an engineer control that has a demarcation layer or can you just use pavement as your cap or the building as your cap? Um so there are numerous options there are you know within the RSRs which helps provide some flexibility because there are a lot of different situations right you know as you can imagine >> right thank you >> Sure. So the question I have Nick

046is um this is really a good overview of the current status of these pieces of property and the remediation that has been done but the question in my mind is and I think a lot of other people's might be. So what are the possibilities of development >> these sites? Is residential a possibility or is it totally out of the question? Is a 10-story hotel a possibility or is that totally out of the question? You know, that sort of thing. >> Right. Right. Absolutely. You know, residentially >> is certainly not not out of the question. Right. Because >> really quickly, do you want to take down your slide so we can >> Oh, you know. >> Yeah, absolutely. >> I'll talk. Yeah, no problem. Now that we're at the question discussion period >> or like stop

047sharing. So yeah, >> bear with me. There you go. >> I'll come back on camera too. >> Okay. Yeah. So yeah, >> do we know answer those questions at this point or is >> well a residential certainly you know it's not out of the realm of possibilities to be implemented here, right? if you have the if you know the proper cap, right? Going back to what I described earlier in the discussion where um you would need a capping system to make the soil beneath the site quote unquote inaccessible. That's a definition that's included in the RSRS. You can achieve that through pavement and buildings and things like that. Um getting into the questions regarding, you know, highrises or hotels, you know, those become more engineering oriented, I think. Um there are certainly from a you

048know environmental perspective I don't see buildings buildings aren't an issue right when we're talking about capping soil and things like that um I the the the probably when I think about these sites particularly 222 through 230 240 I'd say the if if you if the town said hey we we want to make this a park that might be the most difficult thing to do right because or the most expensive thing to do because you would otherwise probably have no capping system. You'd have to remove a lot of material from the site. Um you're also dealing with the flood plane issues which have both environmental uh constraints as well as probably development and engineering constraints um that need to be considered. Um but if you're building and capping everything here um the options are are pretty

049open, I would say, you Yeah, I I mean I think that is my understanding is a kind of key takeaway here is from a sort of like contamination brownfield's perspective that as long as we essentially pave over the whole thing or put clean fill on top of it up to what was the the amount is >> three feet, >> four feet. um like you can do anything you want here like I mean within reason like you know that that is but the one thing that you know we didn't talk a little bit about here but I think is important to understand is that because this most of the sites are in a flood way the issue that we may run into with any sort of like clean fill capping so any sort of you know

050uh uh dirt over to create a park or something like that could potentially run into issues where you're then changing the flood course and that would open up a whole other set of worms um here and I think actually you know the the way to be thinking about these sites at at this point is is from a development perspective um the bigger constraint is actually going to be the fact that most of them are in the flood plane rather than the fact that they are contaminated. That that is actually the thing that we're going to have to struggle with the most. >> Yeah. >> Here um and that any of the contaminated issues have been addressed to the point where um they can be addressed through a normal site development process. Right. I guess I

051would say that's the let's not bury the lead when when we have the the meeting on the 17th. Kind of want to get to the get to the point and let the details come behind it because sort of a long walk to get to the >> the punchline was hey they're from an environmental st standpoint we're good to go with a few pretty routine regular normal steps. I guess on the flood pling just just from my own I just don't understand the what kind of what kind of roadblocks is that going to present. Is that something that's going to be hugely insurmountable or is it just normal usual building design and and uh >> yeah, it's going to change what you can do with the site, especially on the ground floor, right? So, you've got

052to design around and allow things to to flood. Um, one of the things that you have to be, you know, careful of, >> can you give me like an example? Is it is this like build on stilts concept or >> some some things? So like what a lot of things will do is like so what they they typically don't like you doing is putting like um ground floor residential in the in the flood plane. So if it's going to be residential, the ground floor has got to be elevated up. And a lot of developers will put like parking in that area, but then there's got to be like free flow water through that area. So when it does >> okay >> flood and we can kind of get into that. I again I think the

053big one of the big things that you know I think and and we're gonna we're still sort of discussing this internally is is that um the the idea of this becoming a park or having sort of like open space elements is going to be very very tricky because of the king clean cap fill being four feet and if it becomes four feet you're changing the the course of the the >> speaking just for myself I mean, this is the second time we've talked about park. I think park shouldn't be brought up. I mean, that if if if we're got a piece of property to develop, let's develop it so it goes to the adds to the grand list of the town. I >> But just I'll let you please. [laughter] >> I'll put you I'll

054put you out in front of the audience. I mean, we are going to get people in the public, right, who are going to come out and be like, I want this to be a part, right? And I think making sure that everybody understand >> a beautiful park right next door, >> right? We already have one of those. Yeah, >> get one of those. >> Yeah, I'm [clears throat] just I'm just saying yes, Adam, I get it. Yes, you're right. We should be ready for it. But let's not let's try to duck a punch or two. >> Yeah. >> And that is what we're doing in some ways. That is what we're doing is we're trying to take some things off the table here and making sure it's really clear. But and I hear you Mike

055about you know not you know I we wanted to make sure that you all had this information here when we go out to the public this will be >> no the message more simple absolutely and much more direct about what it is but we wanted to give you guys the kind of nitty-gritty >> detail that the response is perfect it's music to my ears that it's not appropriate but I would take that on the queue and not put it as part of the as part of the the presentation. That's the only point I want to make, guys. >> Yeah. >> Any other thoughts or questions before we hand it over to Eric? >> I I'd just like to agree with uh Mike's comments. I don't think park should be our focus. I don't think it's

056ever been our intent. And uh >> that's good. what you've told us tonight kind of reinforces that that would be that would to me that would be a tougher cell than >> uh some sort of development down there because it's much diff more difficult to to create that situation down there. >> Definitely. Totally. >> Cool. Um well, Eric, do you want to get going? >> Sure. Um, I'll try to go through my piece quickly because I know we're almost at seven already. Um, and I just want to say I have a much more detailed uh market analysis that I sent over to Adam. It's just in review. So, we can certainly get that out to the group for a closer review. So, I'll kind of go quickly. I try to hit the highlights on the

057on the market side and then happy to answer any questions along the way or either along the way or at the end, however you want to do it. >> Okay. So I just really quickly always try to frame the market analysis just by um sharing a little bit of information about sort of demographics and economics because I think it's a good a good baseline before we start talking about the real estate side of things. So I mean just as we look back at the population in Portland itself it's been extremely stable for the last you know 10 or 15 years basically hovering around 9400 9500 there's been a little bit of up and down but you can see on the left it's pretty stable but the one thing that you know has changed and is

058changing changing in a lot of Connecticut and New England communities is the population by age. Um so if you look on the right hand side those are just lines that represent the population by age over each dennial census period. So each 10year census period 2020 2020. And as you see those lines the peaks in the valley start to shift from the left to the right sort of indicating that the population is getting older um over time. In 2020 there were fewer kids so those under the age of 18 than there had been in the last 20 years. And you can see that orange line all the way to the right. You can see it's starting to peak around, you know, 70 to 75. So the population that has been there for the last 20 years

059sort of continues to stay there and it's basically aging in place in a community. So you know, we like to look at this from a from a sort of a housing and a spending demand perspective. You know, what's happening in the community within the actual households themselves. Uh we also look at householders by age for both owners and renters and household size by owners and renters only because I I think we'll be talking or at least considering residential uh as part of the overall plan uh to to a certain degree. So having a sense of you know where the market might be headed or where the demand for the market might be headed is is always good. So household size by tenure, you can see your households, both owner and renter, are largely dominated by

060one and two person households, particularly on the renter side. And then, you know, with the owner side, you do get a little bit larger family-sized households. So you have some some three and four person households, but you can see just how many one and two person households you have today in Portland. And I think that's largely reflective of your aging population and your empty neester population. you know, folks that are living in these units that don't have kids. Uh, and from an age perspective, you can see most of your older households tend to be owners, while younger households, there's kind of a mix uh of owners and renters. One thing I noticed that was interesting, I don't have it on this slide, but it's in the broader presentation, is we also do change by age

061um for owner and renter. actually the number of households between the ages of 35 and 44 who are who became owners in the last 5 to 10 years actually shot up quite a bit. So it's kind of interesting you know those folks might actually have kids or might be replenishing your school system over time. Um, and this is not necessarily reflective, of course, of the development that's going on now, particularly at Briner Place with um, you know, that new housing, which as I understood from the sitewalk, is largely being occupied by single and two person households. So, I imagine as more data comes out over time and those those units are occupied over time, we'll see even more one and two person households uh, popping up in Portland. Um, the other thing we like to

062look at too is is how the town is doing in terms of its income distribution. Um, not surprising, we see this in in most communities around Connecticut, New England. Um, those households that are earning at or above 150,000 continue to grow uh in Portland. That's a trend that we're seeing all over. I think it's becoming more and more difficult just to afford to live in many of our communities. So, we're seeing sort of dual income households becoming more of a thing. And that's been a trend for quite some time now. So, we're seeing, you know, two people in the household earning, you know, $75,000 to $100,000 or more a piece. Uh, from a housing perspective, that's good. They have more expendable income, uh, particularly as prices continue to rise, which we'll cover in a bit.

063But it also means they uh potentially have more expendable income if they're uh in walking or driving distance or biking distance to downtown to shops, restaurants, other types of amenities and stores where they can spend money. You know, that's a good thing, too. And just to sort of reinforce uh those household trends, you know, Portland is largely dominated or has been largely dominated by detached single family homes and mostly owner occupied single family homes. Uh the renter stock is a slightly more varied. Uh there's a number of two to four unit buildings and structures uh that have some rental capacity. That could be in two family dwellings, that could be in town houses, that could be in small condo buildings or everything in between. But by and large, your housing stock is largely single family.

064But again, we know that that's changing with some of the more recent developments and could potentially change with the infusion of housing in our study area. Uh the other thing that I thought was really interesting just from a demand perspective is this is the uh vacancy rates from the census uh over the last um 15 years or so going back to 2009 to 2023. And you can see the owner vacancy rate was maybe as high as 5% sort of coming out of uh the 2008 recession and that's quickly dropped particularly with the pandemic to basically zero. So there's really almost nothing on the market when it comes on it's scooped up pretty fast. Um on the renter side you see some more ups and downs. Usually that's reflective of new units coming on the market

065especially when you don't have a lot of rental units to begin with. when you have some come on the market, vacancy comes up for a period of time during lease up and then comes back down. But basically from 2022 and 2023, your rental vacancy is extremely low as well. So, you know, good good from a demand perspective for housing. So, just switching gears to the commercial side really quick, you know, Portland's an interesting place if we're talking about businesses. Um, there's actually a lot more people who leave Portland on a daily basis for work than there are people who come in, indicating that you are largely you're more of a bedroom community than you are an employment destination. Um, overall there's about 1,900 employees that are coming into Portland working. About 4,465 of your working

066residents are leaving each day uh leaving the community to work. And about 500 of your residents are actually living and working uh in Portland. Most people are commuting or I would say a relatively short distance. It's about 80% of uh your residents are commuting to Middletown, East Hampton, Glastonbury. So, sort of nearby communities. Um so, not too far. That's sort of uh emphasized by these two maps I'll show. So, this is sort of where uh your workers in Portland are coming in from. So, you can see they're coming in mostly from Middletown and surrounding communities, but a lot of them are are living and working in Portland. And that's that sort of 515 uh working residents that we talked about. But where your residents are commuting from are much much longer distances and they're primarily

067commuting into the cities of New Haven and Hartford. Some are headed toward Berlin and Southernington out that way and then some are working in between. So, when we're thinking about um you know your local workforce and the ability to attract certain employers uh or industry sectors, kind of looking at who's commuting in, who's commuting out, you know, can give us sort of a sense of well, what might actually be viable and what target industries might we think about in Portland today? Uh growing industries include uh retail, trade, accommodations, and food services. So those are mostly your your food and beverage, your retail stores, your restaurants. Um and uh you don't have a hotel, but accommodations would fall into sort of hotels would fall into accommodations. Um healthcare and social assistance sectors are also growing. So

068if we're thinking about small office development, that is a growing sector. So is professional, scientific, and technical services. That's actually grown sort of by the most uh by the highest percentage and most number of jobs over uh the last 5 years. So again, those are going to be your your office jobs. So those could be anything from uh you know, an architect to an attorney to, you know, somebody working in an office job. So if we're thinking about space demand, uh you know, those might be things that we want to think about, but probably on the smaller scale. I I don't think any of this indicates that, you know, Portland's going to land a large 500 person headquarters. Uh I'm not sure we have the space in the study area for that anyway. Uh but

069if we are thinking about downtown appropriate businesses, mixeduse development, something that could fill in first floor commercial space, you know, I think that those some of those could be a good option. So that was just sort of an a quick overview of sort of demographics and economics, but now I'll start to get into the real estate sectors themselves. So, we'll start off with um for sale and rental housing section. So, [clears throat] just on the forale side, I'm probably not telling you anything you you don't already know if you've been paying attention the last couple years to the market. Um but here we compare Portland in the sort of red line to overall Middle Sex County in the green line. Uh, and you can see since 2020, housing values have really shot up in Portland,

070going from around $250,000 as a median sale price to today around $400,000 in a very short period of time. Um, that's the median for all sales regardless of the age that they were built. Um, the increase since 2015 has been about 112%. Which is quite substantial. Um, on the demand side, as I mentioned before, vacancy is extremely low. So there's not a lot lot of homes that are that have been coming on the market. And you can see the months of supply for both Portland and Middle Sex County are they're mirroring each other pretty closely particularly as we get to 2024 and 2025. There's about two months worth of supply at any given point in time which is extremely low and a lot lower than historical averages which have tended to be you know 6

071to 8 months. Um, but we know with COVID the popularity of smaller communities, particularly really nice communities like Portland that have a great housing stock, folks were moving out of cities, they were looking for more space, prices are going up, vacancies coming down, months of supply came down. Uh, and now with interest rates, things pretty much everywhere a little bit sticky where people can't necessarily afford to move out. People can't necessarily find a house to move in. They can't necessarily afford a house to move in. uh with the prices and the and the higher interest rates. So things really aren't moving too much. But prices are high, demand is still high, vacancy is really low. So even though we might not be talking about single family, if we are talking about other types of owner

072ownership housing, so could be condos, could be uh missing middle housing, could be town homes, things like that, I think there would be great demand for that. Um, and just quickly on the multif family side and on the commercial side, we'll talk a little bit about what we call the submarket. So that's basically Portland and all of its kind of surrounding communities. Um, that just gives us context to work with. So how is Portland comparing to most of its surrounding communities. It does it stops just short of Hartford. We didn't necessarily want to want to count in Hartford or uh, you know, having that influence the market. So kind of Newington, Weathersfield would be your your northern boundary, Berlin to the west, uh Westchester to the east, and then to the south like Durham and

073and Bailey, just for context. So we'll see this figure a couple times for each of the real estate segments. Um this is data that we pull um out of CoStar, which does a great job of tracking um most of the transactions that are happening out there uh in the marketplace. So the way to look at this graph, this is for multif family rental uh housing. The green line uh I should say the red lines, the maroon lines are your net deliveries. So if those red lines are going up in the air, that means units are new units are being delivered to the to the market that we're looking at. Uh if red lines are going down, that means units are coming off the market. Usually when we see housing, there's not a lot of things

074that are coming off the market. When we see the green lines, that means when some when new stuff comes on the market, the green line is indicating how quickly those units are being leased up. So often when you see a red line, you'll see a green line either either right before or right after it. Uh and then the sort of orangey yellow colored line is the vacancy rate. So you'll notice as net deliveries go up, that means new units are coming on, vacancy usually goes up until those units are leased up, which would be the green line. As there's more green lines, vacancy starts to come down. Um, so you can see there was kind of a a bunch of net deliveries in 2017 to 2020. Vacancy kind of came up around four or 5%.

075As that that as all those were being absorbed, which is the green line, vacancy comes down hovering in like that 2% range. So even though the subm market delivered I don't know 8 7 8 900 units in a you know in that time period it didn't take very long for them to be absorbed in vacancy to come back down to really to historic lows around 2%. Typically with multif family we like to see vacancy rates in the 5 to 8% range. That means there's units available people can move in and out. People have choice in the market. There's churn in the market. But when you have vacancy at 2% I mean you might as well consider that zero. there's almost nothing to really move in and out of. Um, fast forwarding to 2025 20 and

076then looking over the next two years 26 and 27, CoStar's tracking a lot of new net deliveries, which is the red lines going up. Therefore, you see vacancy go up. But if you look what happens over that sort of 2-year period in 26 and 27, those units are um those are delivered, they're being absorbed, and vacancies coming right back down to 4%. So from a demand perspective, I think, you know, this shows that there's demand to build in this region. There's demand from an absorption standpoint and vacancy continues to remain low. I won't go into as much detail on the other ones, but just wanted to kind of give you a sense of how we look at a graph like this. Uh on the left, you'll see where those deliveries were taking place relative to

077Portland in the subm market. Um, so you can see from 2015 out through our projections in 2027, most of the deliveries with the exception of I'm sure that that red line 25 is Brainer Place, uh, most of them have been happening outside of Portland. And you can see on the right hand side what's been happening in terms of vacancy when not much is delivered in Portland or really in the subm market. Those vacancy rates are staying quite low. Um, as of the data from 2025, as Brainer Place sort of continues to come online and is being leased up, those vacancy rates are still hovering like the 2% 1 to 2% range. Uh, which is, as I mentioned before, is really low. And when we have low vacancy and not a lot of delivery and and

078quite a bit of competition, we see price increases. Um on the left hand side you see how across the subm market those asking rents over across different bedroom sizes and bedroom types have been increasing uh going back in the last 10 years. Um you see a pretty substantial increase where we've got rents now for you know a twobedroom hovering over $2,000 a month. A one-bedroom probably around $17 or $1,800 a month. Studio around $1,500 a month. So, pretty high rents and a lot of rent growth, which from a developer's perspective is great. From a person trying to afford housing, h maybe not so much, but since we're talking about development, you know, these are good indicators. Um, and then on the right, just for perspective, we're seeing most of the new deliveries both in Portland

079and the subm market being in that one and twobedroom range. Um, so if folks in town are concerned about parking, if they're concerned about school age children, you know, when you're delivering mostly one-bedroom units and some two-bedroom units, usually there's not a huge impact on the school system. Um, just in case that's a concern as we move forward with discussions with the public. Uh, and just lastly on the housing side, we also like to look at projected population because that can also be an indicator of future housing demand. Um, so the Connecticut Data Collaborative, they do uh for the state, they do population projections for um all cities and towns across the state. As I mentioned, in 2023, Portland's population was around 9,400. It's projected by 2040 to increase by um about 700 about 700

080or so. Uh if we were to take Portland's current household size of about 2.4 for persons per household and divide it by the population change that would yield an additional you know 300 or so additional housing units by 2040. Um again that population projection is based on births and deaths folks who are moving in folks who are moving out. It doesn't ne necessarily reflect new development and how much new development potential there is in Portland. So that 302 units is really just looking at population projections. It's not how much development you have in the pipeline and it certainly I don't think reflects um the latent demand for housing in Portland and and in the region but it does give an indication that your population is projected to continue to grow um and housing is an

081important piece of that. So, just to go into the non-residentidential sides of the market. Um, so starting with office, uh, one thing we like to look at is sort of office demand in in kind of two different ways. And you'll see this for, uh, industrial when we get to that segment as well. So, one way we look at it is, um, what is the employment projection change over uh, the course of a 10-year period from 2024 to 2034 in the whole sort of rivercog region in that in that sub region that we talked about. and how might that relate on a down to Portland's employment change. Um, in terms of office generating or office using industry sectors, which you'll see on the left hand side of the table, there's not a lot of employment change

082projected over the next 10 years. Um, in Portland, there's quite a bit more in the sort of in the Rivercock region. Um, but from Portland's perspective, you know, maybe demand for about 16,000 square feet over the 10 years, you know, office is definitely a it's a challenging sector right now. And again, I think as we think about office in Portland, we might be thinking about smaller spaces for smaller size businesses. So, um, you know, I think an annualized space demand projection of, you know, maybe 15 or,600 square feet a year, you know, could be realistic. Uh, of course, if somebody was attracted to Portland for one reason or another, they there could be much higher demand, but I think from an office perspective, it's probably going to be on the smaller side, which I think

083fits nicely in with downtown. From the submarket perspective, you can see uh the impacts of the pandemic on the submarket's office vacancy. It sort of from 2020 onward, it's been trending up. Uh you can see the net absorption numbers going downward which means leases are lapsing. People aren't renewing leases at the same rate in the subm market that they had been prior to 2020 which is all causing vacancy to go up and there's just not really that much in terms of net new delivery. Nobody's really building office right now unless they've got an anchor tenant in hand. Um or they're building very small office spaces like what we're talking about here. Um, rents just in general that, you know, in Portland they're a little bit lower than the subm market. I think that's just because

084of the office space that you have. Might be a little bit smaller, maybe a little bit older than some of the other stuff that's across the subm market. Um, and interestingly enough, the subm market's vacancy rate, as I mentioned, is around that 10% mark, but Portland's is is extremely low, uh, and has actually come down since the pandemic. Some of that could be office markets, office space has come off the market. It might have been on the market for a really long time and now it's just been pulled off the market and it might be sitting vacant. There also might be transactions that CoStar doesn't capture that are happening between either between two PE people that are leasing space uh or that might just not be up on a broker's website where CoStar would would

085necessarily capture that. Um but even before that since 2015 the vacancy rate has been coming down. So again, if you wanted to consider office, I would say smaller size uh office spaces maybe as part of a mixeduse building. >> Mark, not to interrupt you, but uh and I'm curious what the other board members thought, uh the the the office building, the Middle Sex uh across from company 2, when that office building was bought, I think that was bought in 2022 by Snyder Civil. And so he bought the office building and then now he's mainly filled that with his own employees. So I don't know if that would affect the vacancy rate in that way because that's >> Oh definitely the biggest office building we have in town. >> Yeah, it definitely would. Yeah, if it

086was up for lease and um then someone bought it and occupied the whole thing. Uh especially I think um Daniel you we had talked that was a decent sized space that they filled, right? Because they're a pretty pretty big and growing company. >> Yeah. Yeah, I'm trying to get it's 595 Maine is the address, >> but yeah, I mean to answer your question, that definitely would have an impact for sure. That could definitely be what happened there. >> Was it purchased? It was purchased in April of 21. So, yeah, that that would make sense. >> Yeah. Okay, great. Thanks for that. Um, just shifting to the retail side. So similar graphic uh for the subm market. Um what we see here is a lot more activity on the retail side than we did on the

087office side. Um even post post pandemic we see a lot of absorption a lot of net deliveries. Um and vacancy has you know largely hovered sort of historically around the 3 to 4% range. It's come up a little bit uh in recent years just because you see those net deliveries in 2025 in the subm market. that's going to cause the vacancy rate to come up a little bit, but I would anticipate as that lease up occurs, uh, the vacancy rate would probably come back down again, which is good. We don't see large, we don't see a lot of vacancy, which we do see in some other markets. Um, and we, you know, and we see good, uh, net deliveries and absorption. Uh, rents in Portland, again, a little bit lower than the subm market. They're

088hovering around the $15 square foot range. Um, but they have been trending slightly upward for the last couple years, which is good to see. Um, and also a good indicator, you know, Portland's vacancy is also really low on the retail side, uh, compared to what we saw historically in the subm market. Again, some of that is probably reflective of Portland doesn't have a ton of retail compared to some of its neighbors. You know, you don't have a big shopping center, a huge grocery store, um, you know, a big a big strip mall center with a big large anchor. Uh, your retail, I think, uh, you know, is mostly on the smaller side. So again, I think as we're thinking about downtown appropriate retail, I think this makes a lot of sense for targeting similarsized properties.

089Um, one thing that we did was we did a what we call a retail gap analysis and we looked at uh basically from 227 Main Street, kind of the center of our study area along Main Street. We looked at um how many retail how much retail square footage and retail businesses are within a three mile radius um of that central loca of that central point compared to how much household spending there is within that three mile radius. Um, and what we do is we essentially take how how much sale how many sales are happening across different retail categories in aggregate and we subtract that from how much household spending there is across all those retail categories in aggregate. And where there's more household spending than there are sales, it means people have to drive outside

090that 3m radius to find places to spend that money. uh when there's more sales than there is household demand, it means those businesses in those categories are importing sales and they're a net draw uh within that 3m radius, meaning people outside that radius are driving in to to uh spend their money at that business. So, the graph on the right basically says if we were able to capture uh a certain percentage of that household spending that's leaving the 3m radius to spend that money elsewhere, you know, how many square feet of uh retail space could that potentially equate to. Uh and that's across all these different categories that we have in the graph from dining and drinking which is your restaurants and bars and coffee shops to general merchandise would be something like a Target

091or a Kohl's or a Walmart kind of your large format big box stores. Um health RX would be like a C um a CVS or a health food store. Um food and beverage would be your uh grocery or uh like liquor stores, hardware, self-explanatory electronics and so forth. What I thought was kind of interesting, you know, I don't think we're going to be talking about bringing a Walmart to uh downtown. So, I think the general merchandise is probably off the table. Um, but I think things like dining and drinking, specialty and niche stores, apparel and accessories, um, maybe smaller format food and beverage, uh, hardware, smaller format hardware, smaller format furniture and furnishings. Those are often good fits, I think, for a downtown where you have smaller format storefronts, uh, more local businesses, particularly with

092food and beverage. It's interesting within the 3M radius for like dining and drinking, which you would anticipate in a downtown environment, there's actually pretty low demand uh, for that, meaning a lot of the household spending is kind of captured in this 3M radius already. And it just made me think like how much spending on dining and drinking is happening maybe in Middletown just given how much they have as well as how you know as well as what exists today in Portland. Um so I was you know this sort of indicates to me that sort of within your immediate capture area there might not be a ton of demand for you know new restaurants and spaces like that with the exception of something that might be really unique. Maybe there's a hotel that goes in or

093a, you know, a big residential mixeduse complex that goes in right on the river. Uh, and there's like a riverfront restaurant that's got a back deck and a great view that's going to draw people in from further away or might help compete with things that might be across across the river in Middletown. That might be a draw for folks who live there. Um, you know, I think something like that could go over well. Um when we go out a little bit further to a 5 mile radius um we lower the capture rate a bit more um just because we find that there's a lot more competition with distance. So you're going to run into a lot more things nearby your house uh that you might go to rather than driving into Portland per se if

094you live on the edge of this 5mi radius. But you can see what happens as we bring in more household spending from the 5 mile radius. You know dining and drinking comes up quite a bit almost to about 10,000 square ft. a lot of the other uh categories also come up, but again that's because we're adding in a lot more households and there might not be you know as much um you know sort of as much competition in the 5 mile radius uh compared to what those households can spend. So again, I think if we're thinking about destinations, uh that could be a great opportunity. I think with the Nordic Spa, with what's going on with the adventure park already, with your golf courses, with all the different recreation amenities that you have with the

095river, this could be a great location for something really unique if people are coming here anyway. So, I do think there's demand. Uh, I think we just temper expectations with the public when it comes to tons of new restaurants, tons of new retail. You know, I'm not sure how realistic that is. I think being strategic about where that's placed and and where we want to see that go would be a better approach. Um, I'm going to I did industrial just because I wasn't sure how the group or the town would feel about, you know, this use going into this area or not. I figured better to include it if it's not something we want to consider. Uh it's all good, but at least you have the data. So, from an industrial standpoint, um I'll go

096quick through this same graphic. Not a ton of deliveries uh since 2020, which has caused vacancy to come down. Vacancy for industrial in the subm market is it's really low right now. It's basically at like 2%. Um but looking ahead, there's a huge delivery of about a million square feet of additional industrial flex. I'm guessing that's some kind of large uh distribution facility if it's coming in all at once and it's of that size and scale. Um that's going to cause the vacancy rate to go up just a little bit, but you can see it comes right back down again. So, if you are thinking about industrial um you know, I know you have a pretty successful industrial district just outside our study area right now along the river. Um, but maybe there's some kind

097of unique manufacturing or unique sort of non non-noxious use that could happen uh in this area if that's something we think is compatible with the vision uh you know kind of for for this area overall. Again, if not at least you you have the data. Um I'll just skip ahead just because I know we're going along just to the hotel side. Um so we looked at hotels across a couple different submarkets. We looked at Portland's immediate subm market, the kind of Hartford subm market, north and Hartford and Windsor locks and then down toward Grten and Norwich. Just to kind of get a sense of what's happening, um all of our indicators uh have been on the rise for the last 12 months and actually looking back before that, coming out of the pandemic, things have

098been on the rise. Um occupancy in most of the subm markets are going between, you know, if you took an average probably 60 62%. Typically, we we would want to see occupancy around 65% or higher. That's usually a good indicator for us that there might be some room in the market uh for a competing hotel. Uh average daily rates in Portland are a little bit lower than some of the other submarkets, but that's not terribly surprising to me. We're looking, you know, we're talking about some larger cities and access to some larger employment employment places. So, we might that's not terribly surprising to see average daily rates a little bit higher. Um, and when we look at deliveries, there really hasn't been a whole lot delivered recently uh in the market. About 120 units in

099that subm market that we talked about before, Portland and the surrounding communities, but in the major markets like Hartford, not really a whole lot and not really a whole lot in the future. So, I think if occupancy comes up a little bit more, uh, that could be great and I think could be a good indicator that maybe a smaller format hotel, something 90 to 120 rooms might work might work well here. Um, we also looked at uh for the for the subm market that includes Portland and kind of goes up toward Hartford. Um, you know, who is actually coming to these hotels? Uh, you know, who's renting rooms? about 50% of all of the individuals that are coming and staying at hotels in the subm market are what we call transient. So those are folks

100who are coming in for a lot of different reasons. Um it could be business, it could be uh leisure, could be visiting family, it could be whatever. Um that's about 50% uh of the market. And then you can see there's a pretty steep drop for like group rates and then for contract rates where someone usually a business is coming and contracting hotel a block of hotel rooms for you know a longer period of time. So if we're talking about folks who are mostly coming in either on business or leisure um I think it's interesting to sort of think about well what are all of the attractions that might be bringing people in. Uh, and this sort of thanks to to Adam and his team for pulling this together. You know, you can see within Portland,

101which is kind of in yellow, all the different amenities that are here that are either attracting people today or with some additional marketing could be attracting people in the future. Not to mention what's coming with the Nordic Spa. And if we just cross the line over into, you know, into Middletown, some of the surrounding communities, you see just how many there are within a relatively close driving distance to uh to the sites that we're talking about. So, I think for leisure travelers, for people who are coming in for the night or maybe for the long weekend, I think there's a lot of reasons for them to come here and we should give them a reason to stay. Um, I won't go through these because this just is a summary of everything that I talked about.

102Um, but it'll be in the deck that I sent to you. Um, so you can look through it in more detail. So, I'll just stop there. Um, appreciate your time tonight. Awesome. Thanks. Any questions or thoughts or comments for Eric? >> It's a ton of information. Are you able to share the slides apart from the meeting? Okay. >> Yes. Yeah, absolutely. I'm happy to send this deck to you, Adam, if you want to distribute it just to the group and then as we're working on the full thing, you know, this could be an interimm product. >> Yeah. Lots lots of great information. I think it's probably that last slide that we skipped over. >> That's probably the one that we're going to want to show to the public, right? >> Oh, definitely. Yeah. Yeah. A

103very truncated version of this. Absolutely. >> I mean, oh, Mike, go ahead. Sorry. Sorry. I'm just trying to think what the what the key message of that presentation was. Um was what that I guess there's a lot of options. We got to see what the market what the demand is. Is that the the point is you're kind of in a stagnant growth environment populationwise. don't see a ton of demand right now that's calling out for an obvious use. But that being said, it's a unique piece of property and there's, you know, there's certainly a business case that can be made for a number of uses. >> Maybe the hotel uh option is a little weaker today than what we'd like it to be, but but may maybe that can change. I mean, is that the

104I guess I'm trying to think like is when we go there and we say this is this is what our study has shown so far, what what are we going to say? >> Yeah. I mean, I think I think I would put a real I think I would put a very positive spin on it. I do actually think there's demand across a number of sectors. I think residential, you know, if if that's desired, I think that's a no-brainer. I think there is room in the market for some additional sort of retail, rest, entertainment space, but I would just be strategic about how much. I do think, you know, and I would love to um I know we haven't had a chance to do this yet, but to talk to like the wedding venue uh folks,

105you know, because there's demand there. I, you know, we didn't get a chance to talk to the folks at Nordic Spa on the site visit, but just getting a sense from them of like there's not really a hotel immediately here. You'd have to cross the river. What do you think? >> That's a So, okay. So that's a good point, Eric, because I think I think it'd be malpractice to actually hold this public meeting without talking to the Nordic Spa people and talking to the Berdon people, talking to the Brainer Place people, and I guess St. Clemens if you think it, >> right, St. I mean I mean Berdon came and found a purpose that none of us were thinking about. So maybe they have I mean they're outside the box thinkers. I think the same

106thing with Nordic Spa. They dropped into our lap without thinking. So, they found some value to come here. I I I really think if we go to the public and say we haven't talked to these guys yet, we're going to lose some credibility. So, I don't know how to Dan how to how to make that happen or Adam how to make that happen, but I would highly encourage that that we do that. But it is good to hear. It is good to hear that you see demand in you know across a whole bunch of different sectors from residential to some sort of retail dining to um you know to possibly a hotel. So it's good to say that look the we're not doing this in vain that nobody's going to want the nobody's going to

107even think about it. If we put the right position, we could find but but I do encourage we should have those discussions with the people who are already investing money either long time or new time in the in the in the town. >> Yep. And and I will say we're working with Dan to get those scheduled and moving like that is that is in the the the process. Um >> yeah because Berdon and and the spa and even even Brainer Place as much of a pain those guys can be is they saw our opportunity. So you know getting >> pulling whatever we can from them that would ever be helpful to think about what the future's going to look like I think um can add more color to the to the data that you're looking

108at Eric. >> Yep. Yeah. >> And I had a good conversation with um with Dan uh from Brainer Place on the sitewalk. So I was able to glean at least from what I could walking next to him and talking to him. But yeah, >> virtually. >> Yes. Yeah. >> Okay. Yeah. [clears throat] All right. Good. So that's okay. Good. >> Yeah. And I I do think it's important that you know Eric the work that Eric is doing is sort of assuming a you know a generic site right these are you know what is the demand what is the options in there right? You know, you guys have a site that you can control, which is huge, right? That is a big deal. You can decide what the purchase or sale price of that property is

109and what the extractions you want coming out of that for this. Um, and I do think it's it's important to remember as we go through this process that, you know, when you issue an RFP, you know, for this site again, um, you know, we need to have a conversation about how narrow or broad you want to, you know, cast that net, right? You all could be very, very narrow and say, you know, we've done through this process and we want a hotel. that's what we think is the best thing for a lot of different reasons and we're going to be very narrow about that. Or you could open this up to, you know, several different options and talk about, you know, what are the things or the sort of performance standards that you would expect

110out of any project that that came out of that. But that's a long time down the road. I think for the public meeting, what I think is great is we're hearing from Eric is there are a lot of options and what we're going to be looking for from the public is like what are your concerns about some of these options, right? If you you know where where would you like to be going? What would you be thinking about with all of this? And you know, as as I tend to find it's not a good thing at this point in time to try to control the public too much. um to let them share their thoughts and ideas about you know what these sites could be and then we can you know refine and narrow and

111and focus in in subsequent phases. So we're going to leave it pretty open at this first meeting for for people. >> Yeah. any cartoons or >> let let's keep in mind too that huge development that's going on right across the river in Middletown. You know, if that's going to be attracting people to the area, you know, it's a it's a short trip across the river to Middletown. >> Yep. >> Yeah. I was kind of thinking along the same lines, Bob. I mean it it's I know the complexities of the analysis get exponentially bigger that if you start thinking about this as more less of a town and more of a region. But you know just thinking about tapping into some of the latent demand that's in Middletown. Mike and I used to work for Prattton

112Whitney 3,000 person site. This there's one basically one decent hotel in Middletown. You they would give them a choice. Wesian's the same thing. >> Wesian. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I mean, I do sort of agree with Eric on this one that right now like residential is probably your most obvious direction that is complicated by the, you know, flood plane constraints um and things that we're going to really have to consider. But I, you know, my sense is that that is going to be the thing where you would most likely to get the most traction. Eric, is that sort of your read? >> Yeah. Um, you know, one thing I [clears throat] I wonder too is um with just going back to the hotel, you know, sometimes a developer might be doing a scan, a highle

113scan. They might be looking at some of the highle data from CoStar or from STR, wherever they're looking. And on its face, they may pass over Portland because they're like, "Well, the market metrics aren't exactly where I want them to be. Maybe I'll go closer to Harford or whatever." >> Meanwhile, they're missing the story of look at all these potential room night generators that are here and probably will be here in the future like with the spa and other things. So, you know, Adam, I know you and I have talked about like what's the pitch piece? >> Yeah. >> Right. for this that you know we're like hey there's this option which is great here's some information about why it's great there's also this hotel option that's great here's why we think it's great and

114what you might be missing with your market scan you know I mean that that could be an option too >> yeah um so why don't I run through a few sort of like bigger picture slides for you all just from you know our preliminary piece and and um we can sort of talk about you know how all of this fits together and you know what what ne next steps might might involve. Um so I'm going to share my screen. Can you all see that? >> Yep. Great. >> Yeah. Great. Um so you know recognizing that this is a you know we're we're thinking about both the waterfront and you know the downtown area um you know we do know that there is some real issues with the you know traffic volume um on Main Street

115that it you know distracts from sort of the pedestrian comfort and you know some of the economic vi and commercial viability along there. Um, you know, the Route 66 transportation study did envision sort of a narrow roadway, you know, added on street parking, safety improvements. Um, but one thing that we have to talk to DOT a little bit about on this is they recently resurfaced and none of that came to be. So, trying to understand what's going on. um you know the CT loop uh study is identified for some options along Main Street and um you know we know that there needs to be sort of an emphasis on you know sort of building though building on that work and and and looking at it in a little bit more detail. Um just as a

116for people who haven't seen it seen it um the coloring options on this are really confusing. Um but this is the uh this is the um CT loop trail alternatives. Um basically this is the preferred alternative. Um and this would be the shortterm alternative. Um, but there's nothing uh that would should or could preclude um you all from looking at this uh uh uh and and how it might connect to to the riverfront and the your existing trail system in in the riverfront park. Um the Route 66 study um has got a lot of stuff in it. It does not go all the way up as far as I can tell on Main Street. Um, but you can kind of see it does provide some recommended reconfigurations of um some of the the lanes and

117you can start to see um some of the parking options and the the center turn lane through there, the bicycle lanes on both sides. So, that's going to be an important conversation with um CT dot uh about sort of where that where that all sits. Um, Bronson Intermediate School. Um, I don't think I have to talk to you all uh much about this. Just, you know, we recognize that it's a really great opportunity and we need to think about it as, you know, a a real asset in the area. We understand that sort of a hotel use has been identified as potentially the most promising. Um, but the sort of strong architectural quality of it does suggest that it might have some other values potentially as office or commercial uses. We're going to have to

118see how all that plays with, you know, our recommendation um for the the Brownstone Avenue um properties. Obviously, we're not going to be suggesting two hotels um in this area. Um one thing to kind of know though is on the sidewalk, it was sort of made clear that those co-working spaces at Burner Place really were not driven by the market. It was more to sort of be in compliance with um you know, different regulatory standards. Um, >> Adam, I I think that should be Brainer Place, right? Is that a I think that's a typo. >> Oh, Brainer. Thank Thank you very much, Brainer. >> Um, uh, so with the Adventure Park and the Nordic Spa again, um, you know, these are the Nordic Spa is really great because it's going to bring some yearround, you

119know, regional attraction. Um we understand there's some interest in sort of expanding um the adventure park sort of operating time. Um but they do see a lot of users throughout the summer um which brings in a lot of parking needs that are going to be need to be sort of considered along um uh or considered throughout this process especially since they're using a lot of these or one of these sites as sort of short-term parking. Um the other thing is just a recognition that um uh uh the the park is you know is an asset in this area. Um it there is a a desire for you know boat access here. Um but again just you know really need to be thinking through how parking is going to to affect all this. Um, one thing

120that I wanted to talk through with you all, um, is through our sort of sitewalk and then also a little bit of our plan review. Um, there are sort of four other sites here um, that I think are worth um, including within the conversation. That doesn't necessarily mean that we're going to be talking about um you know a program for all of them, but I think I think they have a um role in this conversation. So, I'm going to start with this first one that's off Main Street. Um the inclusionary housing zoning uh study identified that site. They gave sort of a couple of alternatives for that as a potential um site for new um sort of mixeduse development or residential development. Um you know, really proximate to the uh downtown really right off Main

121Street. Um you know, I wasn't able to get back onto these sites. Um, but I can imagine there's some pretty spectacular views of the quarry and the river from there and um, so can definitely see how this could have um, some real interest. Um, I'm going to kind of go around the the same path that we took. So, um, when you go up, you know, Middle Sex Avenue, um, these are the the fields that are right there. Um, you know, that is a big site. Um my understanding is is that they're used by the school but also for other um sort of recreational activities. But with the school going I think there's a question of you know what is going to be the use of those sites and how does all of this tie into

122you know a larger um system here. Um but just also not noting that Middle Sex Avenue has got these you know just really great views. was taken um a little bit from where um then you know above where that new uh Nordic Spa is going to be. Um and then getting to the end of of Middle Sex Avenue um where the parking lot is and um it's a little overgrown but again you know just some really spectacular views and some real opportunities there. Um and last but not least, um there's a site sort of at the uh uh top of the hill on Silver Street um that again some really great views of the quarry and right now is sort of being used seems like a sort of commercial industrial use. Um but another site

123where um you know just walking around it here it was like oh that has a lot of potential um to contribute to things but you know maybe something worth conver a conversation with you all. So um I am going to keep it you know relatively short. That was my um quick overview but just any questions from you all about those thoughts in particular about sort of those other four sites um and their relevance to all this you know work that we're doing. >> No I think it's a good idea to think about them. you you show the pictures and you just think like how can how can there be such good real estate available for development in the central Connecticut right on the river. It's screaming for opportunity. >> Yeah. Um uh I'm sorry. Somebody's

124going to have to pronounce me with the then help me pronounce the name of the fields. Is it a >> Thank you very much. Um, >> and and I wouldn't push that too hard. >> Yeah. I I I'm not I'm I'm sort of curious. >> We can mention, but >> Yeah. Have you all thought about or has there been any discussion about what's going to happen with those fields after the the school? >> Well, my understanding is that that property is separate from school property. >> Okay. mainly controlled by the park and recck department, but uh um but I don't think there's ever been any discussion in terms of uh changes to those properties. >> Okay. >> That I'm aware of. I don't know if Dan, have you? >> No. But, um, I guess park

125and wreck would control, but it's still still town property. So, um, >> yeah, it's still town property. >> Yeah. >> I mean, I I will let you in all a little bit of just what I shared with Dan is like when I was walking around that area. You know, we're talking about these, you know, the Brownstone Avenue properties being very much in the flood plane. And as we were walking down there, you know, my initial thought was, geez, if I were a developer, this would be the the the number one spot that I would be going after. Big square, flat, easy access, you know, not in the, you know, not Yeah. dry. Exactly. Not in the, you know, township owned. And you know I am totally willing to you know sort of say no this

126is a sacred cow let's not have this conversation. It is bordered by residential properties. Um, but it it is sort of could fall into these one of these questions around like, well, is there a way to leverage that in order to finance a different type of improvement, you know, on on Brownstone Avenue other than a a development piece because it is such a great development site from a a developer perspective. I think Adam, we asked you to think outside the box, so I wouldn't, you know, I mean, there's the school is still a still a open issue. I don't know where that's going, but I mean, do don't I mean, don't hold back, please. >> At least from my perspective. I like give us bring us ideas. Yeah, it's complicated, I think, by the flood

127plane and the the potential impact of like, you know, uh what would be a a clean fill cap, which, you know, is something like I'm working on another project in New Jersey where they've got a a former landfill and they're clean fill capping it and putting a park there, right? That is their solution to it. Um, but the fact that this is in the flood plane does sort of complicate that. And one of the things I had sort of, you know, raised with looked at and was the idea of a, you know, a swap. I do think that property at the end of Middle Sex Avenue, that's currently the parking lot, um, is probably your highest value property right now. In some ways, it is not encumbered by flood planes. It has really great views.

128it is at the end of a roadway. Um, you know, it is essentially, you know, development ready in in many ways. So, that's another thing for you all to sort of be thinking about in in that respect is I know we're really focused on the the brownfield properties, but that may be the site where if you were looking to get, you know, movement to build on the momentum from from that, you could get a lot. And as as Eric said, that might be the place where like a really nice restaurant could go with some really great views attached to a hotel or something like that to, you know, really capitalize on the views and could be pulling people from across the river, right? That would be a reason to come dying here that would be

129different from, you know, going across the river. Cool. Um, so any other thoughts or questions about about this? >> Um, you guys provided a great deal of information, but uh um how are we going to condense that down to a shorter presentation? So we can have >> we'll get there. Don't worry. We will we are we are all very good at taking really technical stuff and getting it down to a public, >> you know, sort of uh uh summary and and and I do want to emphasize that what I I want to kind of use this meeting for is to it's not just a presentation and everybody goes home, right? we are going to break out into groups and you know I really hope that you all um are going to be able to attend

130and participate in those group discussions and hear what people say. Um you know I do want to kind of get people's reactions about things and you know what their concerns are what you know ideas people do have any you know background knowledge that people may bring bring to this. So it won't be a visioning session. And it's not going to be like, hey, let's try to come up with the ideas here. It'll be more, you know, opportunities based on, you know, hearing what you're hearing now, which is there's a lot of opportunity here, right? The market is relatively strong. There not a lot of environmental incumbrances other than, you know, the flood plane and some of the development requirements. There is the capping. Um, and therefore, you know, what are the things in some ways

131that people want to kind of take off the table early and what are some of the things that people would really like us to consider as we go forward? Um, you know, access to the river, um, you know, you know, certain types of amenities maybe, you know, people are coming and just like, man, we could just really use, Eric, you mentioned like a um a uh a hardware store. It's like I'm sick of driving out to Home Depot all the time. I just need a place to pick up some screws and a hammer everywhere, you know? So >> well I guess the question in my mind is these new ideas that you've thrown out um Adam you know Brownstone Avenue Fields are those even going to be considered at this November 17th meeting or >>

132I I'd like to put them out there if you all are comfortable I mean that's why I brought them to you and then the question of like are you all comfortable putting them out there as um we could I want to put them out there as a sort of soft you know not say hey we are especially Agalotti fields I don't want to get anybody up in arms but saying hey >> these are some additional sites that have potential for change you know can't should we be considering and thinking about this as like a package of improvements in this area for for a long term. What do you guys think? Should we bring them? Are are we comfortable bringing them out to the public for discussion or do we want to hold off? I think

133if we've, you know, we're putting it out as we're considering pretty much all options. We're really looking at the whole picture and >> these are possibilities. We're not we're not putting out any recommendations yet, but these are things you could consider. >> Okay, >> that's the way I'm hearing it. And >> I think it's worth it's worth putting out there. you know, we may get a lot of feedback, but yeah, now's the time to do it. >> I mean, compared to the the properties, the the four properties, um, we know a lot about them. I don't know how much we can really talk about these other properties as far as you know their remediation status if any is needed or is it known that none is needed you know those sort of things. >> Yeah.

134>> But >> yeah that's a good question. I mean the so the town built the road up to right the the um property at the end of Middle Sex, right? That is uh that was like John and you you all built the parking lot there, right? Is that accurate? >> That was a town project. >> [clears throat] >> Um, so I assume there's some information, potential information that might be from that. Whether or not you can dig it up, I mean that is I think that's a like 15 20 year old 20 years ago, right? >> Yeah, maybe I could find though. I don't know if we have a file for like the old 8 they would have needed to do an 824 referral. Um, I definitely have seen like a site plan showing the

135road. Um, so I I think I could be able to dig dig something up. >> Um, but when we were doing the sitewalk, somebody mentioned that that was actually um like residential properties for the quarry workers, right? That was what that used to be. There were two old long houses back there that were >> I guess they were originally quarry housing for the workers. >> Yeah. So that suggests that you know there isn't any you know real issues and um I'm going to assume that if you've got a bunch of kids playing on the fields that uh they're safe to play on. I'm not that they're they're they're safe. that that that property itself was uh viewed for uh similar use, you know, proposed for similar uses, you know, 20 years ago. >> An ideal

136ideal site for a restaurant. Um, I believe Dan I think I can find you. Susan gave me something on putting out an RFP for that >> years ago. >> I don't know if it ever went out or if they just proposed it >> for the end of >> Yeah. I have not seen anything on that. >> Um, I didn't realize that. As far as any of the other properties, that might be the only one we have anything >> detail on. >> That would be great. And >> field has been a recreational >> fields for 50 60 years. So I I doubt there's any environmental issues, but >> I was going to ask there's probably is there any known previous uses? I mean those properties are as Adam said, they're way up in elevation. and they're

137off the river. >> You know, I'm just shooting off the hip, but yeah, I would Yeah, they're not down in where the industrialized area was along the river. You know, you would expect they're likely not, you know, um normally, you know, when you you do, you know, we we do something like a phase one environmental site assessment. We can look at a history of a property and you can determine those types of things. Okay, what was there years ago? Um, but my hunch is from what I've heard here is there' probably be limited to no environmental issues. Can't say for sure until you do stuff like that. But, you know, given where they are, hopefully there's there wouldn't be much of a concern. >> Um, that's a benefit. >> Yeah. I I just looked at

138the the 34 Fairchild flight. So, I don't know, Adam, if you're familiar with this, but the 34 Fairchild flight, it's like the oldest aerial flight in the country for a state. It's always good to look at. >> It's like It looks like it's a farm field. >> Yeah. >> Um before that, uh you can see the two houses that were were were over there. Um it looks like there might be a third. Uh but yeah, it looks like that was a field was a farm field. >> Okay. >> Um >> typical, you know, pretty typical. >> So Nick, you did raise something. The one thing that we don't have um yet that uh is um the previous RFPs that were released for these sites. If you could get those to us, that would be really

139great to review. Um but otherwise, you know, it's 8:00. Um I really appreciate everybody taking the time to, you know, listen to this. I know this is a ton of information to digest on a Wednesday night. Um it's a it's a lot to get through, but um you know, we really hope that this gives everybody a kind of good foundation for what we're understanding. And as we start to move, you know, towards this, we'll be reaching out to talk a little bit about, you know, how the workshop is going to go, you know, and and again, please, you know, hold those dates. We really would appreciate you all being there and you know sort of ser serving as key ambassadors for the the project. >> Hey Adam, uh Nick, before we break, if I could

140just clarify one thing as I heard throughout the conversation on the environmental um uh regarding the residential activity, right, or residential reuse. Um so, and I mentioned this with 230 Brownstone Avenue, it's the one in the middle, right? So the only unique condition there is the fact that there are PCBs in the soil. In the slide that I had, you know, the plan for remediation there would entail removing more soil. So I just want to be clear there is a nuance with that. In order to do residential there, you would have to remove those PCBs. Um that is a that is different than the others and that's specific to PCBs. So just to you know that would be part of the plan or is assumed to be part of the plan anyway but just so

141we're clear and you know um if you did not then I would say no you cannot do residential with respect to the RSRs and that's the way they're written because PCBs are as I said they're federally and state regulated so they're unique class of contaminants that have different standards with them. So just the only caveat with that um when it comes to 230 the others >> like we talked about earlier in the conversation you're talking about capping and and and that would allow those types of things to be done or those types of uses residential uses. >> Could you vary the site? I I don't want to drag this on just real quick. Could you have residential at 248 and 222 and then have like a commercial use on 230 and segregate the sites like

142that like how the development's done? >> Sure. I mean the way that deep looks at sites is as Dan is as legal parcels. So when you when you apply the RSRS you you apply it to the site. So if they're distinct legal parcels then yeah you could do different things. Yeah. It's it's kind of like that but that's how it is. Yeah. I still think that's an a potential workaround, you know, um developing the site in a manner where you you're you're segregating the residential to the to the two parcels that you can. >> Um I just wanted to make sure that it was clear with the PCBs on that site and it's the only one that we found it on. Um but that is a unique thing with PCBs, you know, because you can

143only cap them >> up to certain concentrations. Um and if they're above one, it's only you can only do industrial commercial. it does prohibit residential unless you remove the PCBs and which we didn't sort of plan to do as part of the approach. It ultimately depends on okay what what do we want to do here right? Um >> just quick because I'm curious do you when you looked at one uh 150 did 150 have PCBs >> like that? >> No, not I I can double check on that whether or not there are any PCBs on that site but not that I'm aware of. Well, I'll follow up and I can send you an email with respect to that. Um, >> okay. >> Mostly similar contaminants to which you're seeing, you know, urban fill and there's

144petroleum releases and, you know, again, there's been a lot of remediation there, but I'll we'll check on that. We'll check on that as well. >> That's awesome. Thank you. >> Sure. >> Um, yeah. So, is is this does anybody have any more questions? I think Adam's right. It's getting later and um you guys probably want to enjoy your evening. Um and if there are no more questions, I I would say that was really good information from from the team guys. Uh that was a really thorough presentation um from from all of you. Um so yeah, that that was really interesting to to look at and gives me a lot of food for thought. So I I certainly appreciate your hard work. >> Great. All right. Thanks everybody. Have a really good night and uh yeah,

145we'll talk soon. Cool. Awesome guys. Have a good night. Thank you. Thanks everybody.