Lake County School Board Workshop - February 2, 2026

001Good morning everyone. Welcome to our February 2nd workshop day >> on this blustery cold day. Before we begin the work of the district, let us stand for a moment of silence followed by the pledge of allegiance. I pledge allegiance >> to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. Okay, we're going to begin the morning with public input. Leland Theorough. >> Hi. Good morning. >> Did you guys miss >> I know like cheerio. >> Give him give him some some tutorials. >> Good morning, Superintendent Corni and board members Luke Cunningham, Dodd, Matias, and Brendenburgg. My name is Leland Tero. You guys all know me through my work as the president of Lake Community Arts, but today

002I am here simply as an informed and concerned citizen of Lake County, specifically concerned about teacher pay. I relocated to Claremont from Sarasota in 2022. I'm a retired music educator who left the classroom in 2018 to serve as the executive director for the Florida Alliance for Arts Education. In that role, I managed seven statewide grant programs, four in partnership with the Florida Department of Education, and I worked closely with arts curriculum specialists and district leaders across the state of Florida, especially during CO. When I moved to Lake County, I was aware that the district did not have a dedicated arts education specialist. What surprised me more, however, was how similar Lake County schools and Sarasota County Schools actually are, and yet how different the outcomes are for educators. Both districts serve roughly the same number

003of students. Both operate about 62 schools. Both employ a comparable number of teachers and staff, but Sarasota County's general operating budget is approximately 613 million compared with 53 million in Lake County, a difference of about $110 million. That gap translates directly into salary, support, and stability for educators. Oh my goodness, the faces right now. Uh the end result is clear. Sarasota County teachers earn on average somewhere between 10 and $15,000 more per year than their counterparts here in Lake County. One of the key drivers of this difference is the local school millillage rate. Sarasota's local mill is only slightly higher than Lake Countyy's. To put that into perspective, in my Claremont community in Kingsidge, there are 2,088 homes. If we were paying the millage charged at Sarasota's rate instead of Lake Countyy's, my annual property

004tax would increase by about $32 for the whole year. But if every home in my community was paying that increase, it would generate nearly $67,000 to our schools. That's just one neighborhood. I firmly believe that with a modest increase in the local millillage, Lake County could meaningfully improve compensation for teachers, administrators, and support staff without placing an undue burden on taxpayers. Right now, Lake County ranks 47th in the state for average teacher pay. Our teachers can and do leave for surrounding districts where their salaries are higher. Some can increase their pay simply by working from home for Florida Virtual School. This is not a talent problem. This is an investment problem. I urge you to take the necessary steps to increase the local millillage by about 0.25 mills. This very small adjustment would make a

005real difference and send a clear message that Lake County values its educators and it's committed to retaining them. Thank you for your time, your service, and your leadership. Thank you very much, >> Elizabeth Emery. >> Thank you, chair, board members, and superintendent Cornnegie. I'm grateful and excited to be here today and for the opportunity to speak with you. As you know, uh we are committed to supporting the educators and staff and and our community here in Lake. There is so much to celebrate in Lake County schools. We are an A-rated district with exceptional educators and staff. our teacher of the year and employee of the year celebration was outstanding last week. Our graduation rate is the highest in district history and we're home to the superintendent of the year as well as past Florida principles

006and teachers of the year. So, we have a lot to celebrate here in Lake. The recent uh instructional ratification of the 2526 collective bargaining agreement had 1,621 ballots cast. 58% of the bargaining unit. 83% voted in favor of the tenative agreement. While that is a strong majority, it took a lot of work for that ratification to go smoothly and it is a decline from last year's 96% approval and 66% participation. Many educators expressed concerns about this agreement, and this was the smallest salary since 2020, salary increase since 2020. Our bargaining team understands this is tied to limited state funding, declining enrollment, and other factors outside of the district's control. But regardless of the cause, we must find solutions to attract and retain the highquality educators who make our success possible. Competition in education is higher

007than ever. As of July 2025, and this would obviously change with this new ratification, Lake County ranked 43rd in average teacher salary, and nearly every neighboring district ranks higher. Marian County, which has similar enrollment to Lake, is ranked 29th. And I'm happy to share that data as well with y'all if you would like it. We know the state is not funding Lake County school and teacher salaries at the level our educator deserves. That means we must look locally. Nearly all comparable or neighboring districts have a village dedicated to employee compensation. Lake County Schools is the largest employer in the county and almost every family has a personal connection to our schools. Voters understand the importance of supporting the people who educate their children. Lake County school employees will be highly motivated to support this and

008it will positively impact morale. A salary millillage would strengthen our ability to compete for top educators, improve student outcomes, and support the long-term economic health of our community. We are here to support this work and to continue collaborating for the success of our educator, students, and community. Thank you for your time and we look forward to continuing the discussion. >> Thank you, Jessica. So wiki >> chair board members and superintendent thank you for the opportunity to speak today. This conversation is about hope. Hope that doing this work does not require sacrifice without stability. Hope that commitment to our students is met with commitment for from our system. and hope that Lake County Schools continues to invest in the people who make learning possible. Lake County Schools is an A-rated district and there is no doubt

009that the leadership has played an important role in achieving this success. Vision matters, direction matters, support matters and at the same time the A rating is earned every single day by educators and support staff who are meeting expectations and going far beyond them. They feel that pride deeply and they just as strongly feel that their hard work should be recognized with more than words. When we talk about expanding the referendum to include salaries, we are not talking about numbers on a spreadsheet. We are talking about people, the people behind that A rating. The qualitative data tells a powerful story. We hear it in conversations when educators resign. We hear it in listening sessions and we hear it in the stories that surface in our community sometimes unexpectedly. Recently, we went to lunch and our server

010was a former firstear teacher, someone who didn't even make it through a full year in the classroom before realizing she simply couldn't afford to stay. Just this weekend, a post circulated from an educator who shared that she has been diagnosed with breast cancer while also caring for a family member with disabilities. all while trying to continue showing up for her students. We know a single mother working four jobs just to make ends meet. Four jobs while raising a child and serving in our schools. And we have to ask ourselves, how much time does that parent actually get to spend with her own daughter? These are not isolated stories. They are becoming far too common. And yet, despite all of this, our educators and support staff continue to show up. They continue to meet expectations and

011they continue to carry this district forward. This is where the opportunity before you matters. Salary is not about extras. It's about dignity. It is about recognition. It is about showing educators and port staff that their dedication is seen, valued, and respected. By choosing to invest in salaries, you are choosing stability. You are choosing recognition. And most importantly, you are choosing hope. I respectfully ask you to choose hope for our staff, our students, and the future of Lake County Schools. Thank you. >> Thank you very much. >> And speaking of hope, we're going to move right into it. So, I'd like to invite Mr. Steven Vancor to the up to the front. You're going to have 3.01 and 3.02. Mr. Vancor uh is a principal in Vancor Jones Communications. He uh has done some work for

012us already and he's going to give us that report. Thank you. Appreciate you being be uh letting me be here. Thank you very much. Can you put up the PowerPoint or >> that Mr. Vancor? There's a um a controller right there. You're welcome to sit or you're welcome to stand at the podium wherever you're more comfortable. >> This is this will this will be >> Okay, great. >> So, we uh I'm the president of Clear View Research and we have been doing polling in the state for about 20 years. I have personally been polling for about 40 years. Um we have a great reputation. We we do it all over the state and pretty much every county at one point or another. And the this area has been a special area for us. And uh

013for example, this year alone, we've already done about 17 polls and county districts trying to understand voters attitudes towards um either half penny taxes for the schools, full penny or half penny for counties as well as millage increases. So what we did is we use the what's known in the business as the gold standard. es live outbound callers, Florida based callers calling to a list of registered voters. We modeled the sample to do our best job to try to predict what the electorate will look like in the coming November election. Uh and so we modeled our sample as closely as possible to look like what we anticipate the population would be. We got 400 likely voters in Lake County. We talked to them. Uh we looked at five important variables to make sure our sample

014looked like the population. For example, we use gender. So we know at approximately 52% of the electorate will be female in the upcoming November election. Our poll is 52% female. We also balanced it by party registration, by geography, by age, age slash uh as well as uh race, ethnicity to make sure as many variables as we can control for to make it look as much like the population. With that, it has a very narrow uh margin of error and made even narrower by the fact that the questions are skewed because of the response set. Uh which is all good. Um so we tested two different things. We wanted to test what would the current renewal if you just renew the current system four years. If you do that you and your lawyer I think will

015tell you you can't change a word. Uh it has to be the same agreement the same contract the same uh amount moving forward. And in testing that we found uh overwhelming support uh about a 3:1 level of support among voters. 64% said yes they would vote for it uh if the election were held today. Now, we of course we know the election is not going to be held today, but these things tend to be relatively stable. It's not like we hear about polls and presidential elections and you're constantly being fed news about that. These things don't do that. We we could pull this in another 5 months and I'm pretty confident it would be plus or minus two or three points on the 64% unless something cataclysmic happens. But we tested the existing language and

016it came out 6424. Good, but not great. And I tell you what I'm talking about there is if you're if you're running for office let's say uh Mr. Chairman it's me versus you and you've got 64% and I got 24% we would anticipate that would be a landslide. Referenda don't work that way. The way referenda work it's really 64 versus the 50. And these things tend to have a downward trajectory so that if one or two group members come out and says I don't like it, that negative tends to have more power than any positive messaging. So what we try to do is develop the very best language to elevate that as much as possible assuming if you're putting it on the ballot that means you also want it to pass. So we tested something

017else as well. We tested and I was a little surprised about this because just so you know in historically in the state of Florida no millage renewal has ever failed. Now I don't want to put that out of context in this regard. Most of these pass anyway. All right? So these are generally not difficult. It makes sense. People like their teachers. They like their local schools. They want to see their money kept local because every dollar raised from this stays right here in Lake County. It doesn't go to the state. it doesn't go to the feds. Um, but normally renewal is a very powerful word. But we tested some different language based on our experience. So we also tested a one mil which would increase your current uh 75 to point uh to to one

018up to one. U and we use what we thought was our best language based on our numerous numerous polls we've done. And what we like to do is like say make it really clear to the voters what they're voting on in order to recruit and retra retain highquality teachers and to meet the requirements of the Marjorie Stoman Douglas High School public safety act for the enhancement of school safety, security and mental health. Sal the school district levy up to 1 mill adorum tax for four years creating a sustainable funding source for that is critical for improving and maintaining safety for our children and to increase teacher pay. Now, this pulled a little higher. I was frankly a little surprised because we do this a lot and renewal is a very very powerful word or you

019know uh extension of but more powerful than that is raising teacher pay. And let me show you what I'm talking about. So what the way we like to approach this is we take what we consider the best ballot language in total. I've got 15word title and a 75word summary to operate off of. And what I do then is I break down the ingredients of that item. For example, public safety, school security, raising teacher pay, etc., etc. And when we do that, we we also notice the direction of the schools, not a big deal. Uh, and this is more reflective, frankly, of the national environment. A lot of negativity out there. So, they want to see a change uh in the direction of the schools. There were more people who said things were headed in the

020wrong direction than right direction. uh we didn't delve into that more and it I know it it's got to be mindboggling to you. You got the superintendent of the year, you have all these a schools, you're doing really well, but the public wants better, which is nice that they want a higher standard. Um so what we did is we broke out some of the elements of the language and we found and I I've created this system we called elevator anchor analysis. What I do is I we test the ballot itself and then we test the individual ingredients of the ballot. And what we look at is those items that pull above the ballot. In other words, the voters are more pleased with that. I call that an elevator. If it polls below, we call that

021an anchor. Now, what we usually do is recommend that the elevators all stay in the ballot language and in the ballot summary where the anchors are taken out. You still may do those things. They're just not in the summary. Now, the one uh uh thing which we did not test on here, but we know from hundreds and hundreds of poll, dozens and dozens of polls, sorry. Uh is that the charter language that's required by state is often a net negative. It pulls it down a little bit. Um so we did not test it here, but uh on advice of council, we're going to include that language in our recommendation. If you change, if you stay with the old one, you don't need to change anything. But if you go with the full mill, uh it

022would be our recommendation at this point to add in language saying a a proportionate share goes to charter schools as required by Florida law. But you'll see here when we say help recruit and retain highly qualified teachers, more likely to vote for it, you hit almost 80%. Same thing with raised teacher pay. uh funding for school uh security and safety also very popular. Mental health services also very very popular. When you get to the generic and preserve important school programs, not so much still above the ballot. So technically these are all elevators, but those first four are very very strong. So with that uh and working a council and and uh with your council, we came up with if you're going to go to the full mill, now that's your choice, right? I think that's

023what what you're contemplating today. Do you stick with the current one which is a renewal or do you go to the full mill? And we added some other uh enhancers as well. For example, we know that telling people that every dollar stays right here, that the money stays local is one of the most powerful elevators we have. We also know that citizens advisory committee somebody to look over. You know, it is it is a uh misinterpretation of the way people vote to say, "Oh, Republicans are against taxes." They're not. They But they are. As fiscal conservatives, you want to say, "I want to make sure my money is properly spent. I want to make sure there's an oversight committee to make sure the money's not spent for something else." And they especially love when the

024money stays local. And it that's what universally brings both together. So, we feel confident that if you were to if this language would be there, uh, adding the fact that we added staying local and reviewed by an independent citizen review committee would elevate it even further, probably into the high 60s. So, with that, I'm open and available for any questions. >> Yeah, I've got a couple. Um, thank you. That was a fantastic presentation. Um, >> short, right? >> You hit the high level, so I appreciate it. Yeah. Um my concern and I certainly trust your professional judgment but when I look at um the sample size of 400 likely voters relative to the 270,000 voters in Lake that's 0.15% of the total voting population um and making decisions based on this this good data but

025still based on that small of a sample size in my mind relative to property tax issues and other referendums on the ballot being mindful. Well, I I certainly support teacher pay and I certainly support this 1 mil um increase, but I also want to be cognizant of not jeopardizing our 75 because if we were to increase this and then lose that 75, that $30 million hole or so um is just as painful, if not more painful, um and wanting to make sure that we craft this language in a way if we do choose to go to the the full mill um to limit that downside as much as possible. Um I am encouraged by the data um that you're showing here, but again um can you just speak to the the 400 being appropriate in

026your mind and how that works? I think that's my biggest concern. >> A whole master seminar on on why 400 is a really good sample. Uh many times we'll go in with 300. Um so the way the way bell curve statistics work, if you draw a random sample, just a straight random sample, you don't know that it's representative. If you uh so we draw a a random sample that's also representative and what we learned many many years of doing this it comes out to be pretty accurate in terms of predicting the entire model. The best analogy I could think of is when you draw blood from your doctor you draw a millionth of a percent when they take a little drop and they put it on a thing but that's a random sample of your

027blood and it's highly accurate to say what your blood sugar is or what your cholesterol is or whatever those things. Parametric statistics work the same way. When you get above 300, you start to have what's a narrow what's called margin of error, which is based on the bell curve, how many standard deviations from the mean that is. When you get to 400, it's much narrower. The better news is that's based on a two yes no question. That's 50/50 in reality. Also known as the worst case example. When you skew it, which this is, and skew is normally a bad word, but it doesn't mean it's biased. means the data set is lumped towards the the mean is slid over to the 64%. So I'm very confident and like last cycle we did about 18 polls

028on these issues and all of them came within two to three points of the final ballot. Now that does not mean there's sometimes a game change for some odd reason in Monroe County it jumped 20 points. In a couple of other counties it dropped about six points but by and large they come out pretty accurate that way. So in my professional opinion, uh my masters is in market research, 400 sample uh is is fantastic. >> Okay. >> You see statewide polls all the time at 500 samples and they're pretty accurate too. >> Well, I think the rest of my questions will go towards 3.02 with then okay, if we go forward with this, how do we market it effectively to ensure that that data or the the results come out close to that point and

029get us what we need to be? Um >> really that's a really good question because the law has been changing on that. >> Sure. and with the other factors in play with the governor's pushes and the legislator's pushes just making sure we're being mindful of that. Um my only answer those are >> Yeah, if you don't mind. Sure. >> Oh yeah. No, when you when you So the two things uh let me answer the second question first about what's what's potentially going to be on the ballot. Um, what we have found is through extensive research in this is that one poll item rarely affects another poll item unless for those of you who have as many gray hairs as I do, you remember in 2018 when there was a whole bunch of them on the

030ballot and they were really long. Uh there was, I think, 14 of them. The only one that failed, by the way, was uh to uh lower property taxes, ironically. The rest of them all passed by about a similar margin. So you had pattern voting here. You normally don't get that in these kind of things. We did an extensive research in Manatee County, Marian County, and Bvard County on this very issue because for those we had the half penny up and a new millage at the same time. So we did we were fortunate enough to have vendors who were willing to pay for polls. We did two or three or four different ways and we did focus groups. And what you find is if a voter likes this, they're going to vote yes. And you have

031a powerful one here with teacher pay. We see those kind of numbers. if they if they see the property tax thing when we don't know a if there's even going to be one on the ballot given the breakdown in the legislative process or what that will look like. So I can't predict that but I am fairly confident these things travel alone and travel to get uh separately. Now as to your other question about how do you market this? Um, if you're pulling that high, I would first uh recommend you do very little because when you know it's like to use a sporting analogy, if your team's ahead, what you're mostly watching is the clock, right? Like come on, go clock. Same way in and in and campaigns, referenda campaigns. But there's two tracks on these

032things. Track one is what can the government do? And I, you know, I'll let Scott answer those questions, but by and large, you can't spend and send. Meaning you can spend some money. For example, you can update your website. What will the money go to? You can spend money to develop material so that if you go to a con Kuanas club, an EDC meeting, a chamber meeting, you can hand stuff out. You can develop a PowerPoint presentation. You can hire a consulting firm to help guide all that. But what you cannot do is send out information unsolicited to voters. So your hands are a little tight on that. What a lot of school districts will also do and people in the community get together either with their business community, the development community. I mean the

033best example ever was Manatee County. The developers there said, "We have C-rated schools. We want A-rated schools." Cuz guess what happens if I'm building if I'm HR DH Norton or or uh one of those companies and I'm building 5,000 homes. If they're in an A school district, >> that's $10,000 more per home, right? And so they saw the value of better teacher pay and they hel he heavily funded it. So you have a separate political committee if you like to set up from people within the community to go ahead and push for something like that. Their uh limitations are minimal. They could they have to adhere to Florida election law and that's it. >> Okay. Perfect. And I've got one last question while commenting a question. um board. I did speak with Jennifer Barker from

034the county office this morning and at this point they are not considering any referendums of their own. There was some talk about a gas tax um and some other items for them, but as of now they do not plan on having anything else on the ballot for the county themselves, which I think is is helpful um as we consider this conversation. Um and last question for you, sir, on the recommended language. I think it's good. Um I know there's the word count. Does this hit it pretty close or does this hit it on the number? The only reason I ask is I think some mention of >> 73 >> I think some mention of Marjorie Stoman Douglas is important. I think voters know what that means and what that is. And while we've got a

035lot of really good language in here, um if there would be a way to work that in like operational purposes, I don't know if that really matters. Um once you look at the rest of it, I like the review board. I like the charter school proportion share. I think those are helpful to the voters, but I think I I would rather not leave it up to chance it anyway. I mean, the Falcons were up 28 to3. thought they had it in the bag and that didn't happen. So, even though this voting is good, um I think Marjorie Stoman Douglas to some levels just helps our cause even more. Just want to throw that out there for consideration or your professional opinion on that. >> We have two more. I think we have Scott, we have

036a two-word uh >> two words. >> You take out operational purposes. You got two more. Yeah. What's interesting is uh Escambia uh Escambia blew through that limit cuz their lawyer uh I often joke that 67 counties, 67 different lawyers, 67 different opinions. Their lawyer didn't think they had to adhere to the 75 words. It was never challenged. But having worked with Scott, he's he's relatively conservative on these things, as would I be. And so, uh if we can find a way to get MSD in there, >> um uh we can we can take some other things out. But we have I feel strongly we need to keep it to 75. You don't want to be the test case. >> Yeah. No, I don't want to be the test case either. I agree. Yeah. So, I

037think four operational purposes could get us three more words. >> Um and look at some of the rest, but just I've talked a lot so I'll be quiet. >> Yeah. Operational expenses is blah. You know, we don't know what that means, but we know what MSD is. >> Mrs. Cunningham, >> thank you for your presentation. Very enlightening. Um I just have one question. Based on our population in Lake County, I'm sure you're aware, we have a lot of people who have no vested interest in the school system. I hear it all the time. Did you take that into consideration, our aged population, and how did they figure into those 400 that you pulled? Were there a greater percentage or how did how did we take >> It's a really good question. Of course, yes, we

038did. We balanced the poll by age. And uh if you look at the cross tabs, I'll be happy to send them to you. It's, you know, 168 page document. I'm sure you'll comb through it. Um, what I love is that, uh, senior citizens tend to be as, if not more, supportive of these initiatives and and as, as a newly anointed senior citizen myself, uh, I think part of the reason is that you have, you know, when you're little, you have a small event horizon. When you get older, you see things clear and long term. I think they recognize the value of having a highquality public school system uh and generally support these things uh even people on fixed income. So yes ma'am we did balance it by age. Our our poll will look looks to

039I can't predict what uh what uh the electorate will actually look like. I based it on current voter registration trends and what off-year elections tend to look like. Uh and so we balanced it as much as possible by that. But yeah older folks are not less likely to support Okay, good to know. Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Well, I I find a lot of comfort in um in your numbers and in this potential solution for us. I mean, if we're waiting on Tallahassee to to solve the lopsided budget where we stand, uh we'll never get that fixed. >> I hear that a lot. >> Right. And um and and I mean, I see the faces of people out there who are directly impacted because they're the ones getting taking home the paycheck every week

040that is, you know, not representative of what their counterparts are getting in other districts. We also hear that disparity just in neighboring districts versus ours. So I think I think this is a great solution. I'm I'm really excited that we're able to to to to work beyond the means of the 75 to create a vehicle for this. My wondering is in the language. I'm going to go back to the language piece. Um it's when the one that you pulled um that updated language there, you had 66% there. And one of your elevators, one of your highest elevators, I think second from the top there was raised teacher pay. That was that was those are the last words in that ballot. That's the last thing I linger on and I hear. But then in the in

041the proposed language that teacher pay seems to get buried in the middle and I'm wondering if that how would that impact >> Yeah. our cup flow with over on that. It's good really good questions. Um our cup flow with over on that. Yes. Teacher pay is the most powerful. I I like you believe in primacy recency from our uh extensive research on voter behavior. What you see is voters will walk in and they'll look at the ballot title, start here, scan and go to the end and then drop over. The the the middle tends to be Charlie Brown's mom, right? But uh like I said, our cup flow with over we have citizens oversight committee is very popular. Um keeping the money local is very popular. Teacher payer keep very popular. And so that's why

042we say it in the final language as I recall twice. >> Yeah, in the final language it's Yeah, in order to recruit and retain teachers, I mean, you have a little room. You could put something about teacher pay in the in the in the ballot language, but we can we can certainly move that around if if we get to our 75. Uh Scott and I can take that and scramble it around till we end with teacher teacher pay if that would be your recommendation. >> Well, I guess I'm wondering what's the what's the strongest piece? Did you did you um >> We did not on this one. We did not. We were on a very tight budget so we kept the questions short but I will tell you from having done this the local and

043the independent citizen review committee are always you know fan favorites. Uh but teacher pay is your most powerful. So if we ended with in order to raise teacher pay I would have no opposition to that at all. >> Yeah. And I I think I just wonder about you know Tyler I agree with you the operational purposes there. You know I I don't want it to look like we're just hiding behind some bureaucracy that people don't really understand or mean. And and uh >> yeah, what we found to Tyler's point is um enhanced school safety is just as strong as MS you know saying MSD in particular and that always eats my general thing is that eats so many words and you're limited to just 75 outside of Escambia um that uh uh enhancing school safety

044prominently uh put you know put up there. So, >> yeah. Well, I like the mention of the Marjorie Stoman Douglas Act. You know, I think it >> Yeah, a proper noun in there, you know, gives maybe some legitimacy of this is you like we're we're trying to comply with with what we're directed to do and this is the funding source to do that. >> That's a very good point. >> And and you know, it's interesting because like you said, I've been pulling this a long time. School safety was never ranked high. It was, you know, it was often a an elevator but a gentle slow one >> since 2018, February 14, 2018. It's it's been tops, but what's interesting, it's starting to fade just a wee bit. Still strong, but teacher pay continues to to

045rocket high. And when you have the governor appropriately saying we need to raise teacher pay as well, that that gives us kind of a one of those rare unified apple mothers and apple pie message kind of thing we have. Everybody seems to agree improving teacher pay is important. >> Sure. I love the idea. I would just like to play with the wording a little bit. Sure. >> And um and get us to some >> In my mind, we've got six words to work with between four operational purposes and I don't think we need support in front of staff pay um without words smith in this thing entirely. And if you've got the other two if we're at 73 then six words in some fortune for either teacher pay or Marjorie Stoman Douglas or something of

046the sort. Um just food for thought. >> Okay, Scott, we can work on that. >> Absolutely. >> Are you done? >> Um are you done? >> Yes, Mrs. L. Um I Dr. >> It's Dr. Doc >> with the you said the first and the last. Was it the title though Lake County School District ad valorum tax or is it you have the teacher it doesn't say teacher pay but the insinuation of recruiting and retaining teachers and enhancing school safety the first sentence and then the last sentence is the >> Yeah. I think there's essentially two primaries, right? The first is the title and then they start to read what it does, you know, generally slide through it if they like it. Oh, good. That's why I always believe in putting the most important thing first

047because they they'll they'll make a decision right then. Oh yeah. Yeah. I in order to create and train teachers I like that whatever else is enhancing and supporting that not contradicting it. Yeah. So yeah that's so the primacy recency and that's it's a little fuzzy right because you I do these focus groups and they'll raise their hand and tell me what they're liking or not liking but generally it's this plus this and then close out there. >> Okay. Yeah. Um, the only other thing I was wondering, and this kind of blends into the next agenda item, is do we have any understanding yet if if our like home builders associations and our real estate agencies like are those do we know if those people are coming in support of yet? >> Um, well, we have

048not gone out and really tested the water because I wanted to see what language we ended up with, right? >> Um, so just some conversations. I know, um, our sheriff and other municipal police departments are absolutely on board. they understand how significant this is for improving school safety and so he at teacher of the year he said when do we get started so he's ready to roll and I know with his support um okay I think we'll you know certainly once we have the language one of the things we'll be asking for is um some help from Mr. Vancor and his group to to go out and do the marketing meeting with our homeowners association and every group. So, it's going to be a busy couple of months for sure. >> Yeah. I was kind

049of laughing at the illusion of time. I've watched so many basketball games where they do run the clock out and then in the last 20 seconds it comes down to this buzzer beater, >> right? And like I don't even understand that concept. But thinking about an election year and thinking about the the people that are going to be coming to the ballot and so forth, um I think that's going to be an important driver that the community supports it and I certainly think they will. I don't to your point you said in your presentation it's kind of interesting that we have an a district the superintendent of the year and we still have some people that think it's moving in the wrong direction. So I think I think this is a prime opportunity for us

050to not only support our workforce but to also elevate the perception of what is really happening in Lake County schools. I think that'll be like a prominent driver for our communication purposes. Yeah. And we've we've actually had the support of local realtors like formally like sending out mailers in support of this because they too recognize if I'm if I live off commissions of selling a home and I'm selling a home in an a district, I'm going to get a higher commission as a result of that because let's face it, schools and homes in poor performing districts don't sell as well or for as much as in high performing districts. But sometimes they're split because they're like, "Oh, we don't need more property taxes, right?" But on the other hand, we want really really good schools.

051>> Yeah. Well, and it is empowering to Mr. Dod's point about having to sit and kind of I always say that I want to be driving the crazy bus rather than sitting on it. And I feel like if we just sit on it and continue to sit on it, we don't see much traction in that regard. So, it' be nice to to be able to drive our own conversations around what we expect our teachers and our staff to be paid. >> Pretty good. >> Okay. Now, you can get to downer Debbie. >> Oh, there we go. So I want to remind everyone and and both Mark and Dr. Luke and and I we first went out for the 75 because we wanted to control our destiny. We knew we had to provide safety and security

052and equally important was mental health and it folded really high and it came we won by 8 58%. So there is this slide that you speak about. Um we need to speak about what that revenue gen what it means to us and currently we bring in uh $37 million. That's what that's what's being put at risk because you said earlier the renewal almost always pass. 28.7 million actually is comes to this district because of the proportionate share that we have to do that we do. Um it concerns me and and this is my last year and you want to leave things better then you found them and if if we lost because this is a not a renewal this would be a new referendum >> and if we put that at risk and we lose

053those funds then that safety security and mental health component and the mental health I will share with you um we have seen amazing results from having those liaison and so I am very I'm concerned because of the political climate. I'm concerned, as you said, the governor speaking about giving teachers raises. If he already is going to come out with funding, how does that affect the referendum if we're saying that's what we want to do? And so those are my real concerns. And uh now I will share with you out of the other side of my mouth. I admire this board because like we did originally is we decided to take it in our own destiny. And I think that's that's positive. But I genuinely am fearful that with the temperament of the community today, people

054with the with the conversation of ending property taxes alto together, >> how is that going to be perceived when they come in to vote that I was speaking to Mr. Ward and people would challenge the 75 from time to time, but he shared with me and you can agree or not that they're actually angry now when they call about it getting their tax bills. So, how does that manifest itself when they come to the polls for now a new referendum versus just renewing? >> So, board members, that's my concern. And um >> I ask a question. What is the So, if this were to fail, if we went forward with the new language and we weren't to be successful, when would be the next opportunity that we'd have to come forward with bringing back the

055mental health and school safety? Is it two years? >> I don't know. >> Does anybody know? Yeah. >> If if it fails, um you can come back up in two years, but you can no longer call it an extension. That was a recently passed law, >> an extension. >> You can no so for the half pennies in the millillage if it fails the first round, next round, you can no longer call it an extension, but you so you can go back up with a new one. Um, so we we had discussed this at length and if I if if I could all I have to do is compare all I have at my disposal. I can't predict the future is comparing the renewal 64 to 24 which is a plus 40 to this one which

056is a plus 45. I also believe with some of the um enhancements we talked about, I could probably get that up to 67, maybe 68 and drop that down. You're now talking, I mean, really solid numbers. So, I I I share your thoughts, which is the sure thing in one level seems like the renewal will pass. It's the least risky. But I'm looking at two sets of numbers and the voters are telling me on the same poll. And one of the thing one of the things we do to make sure you understand this, we rotate these questions. We don't ask them in the same order because there's a thing in polling called ordering effect. If I ask you 19 questions in a row, you eventually get bored with them, right? Uh to minimize, you can't

057ever get rid of ordering effect because you're getting A and B. You're getting B and A. So it's do you. to mitigate it. So, statistically, this is, if you were to ask me which is the sureer route, I'd say this one is because it pulls higher. But I hear what you're saying. It's it's probably an easier message to go out into the community and say no change. Everything's good. So, but but it this polls a little higher. >> But I think that you could go in the case of the 75 renewal. We have a story to tell with our mental health. We have the kids that we built. We have safety and security on every campus. Those are things that they can see and we're renewing that and I think that that's that's a powerful

058marketing. >> Absolutely. >> Right. >> May I ask a question? Would if you went to a mill this 3/4 stays intact. It's just an add-on. >> No, no, no. I understand that. >> I know. I was asking but I >> Yes. >> Oh, yeah. >> Yes. Correct. He was asking if the 75 will remain dedicated for school safety and minimum. >> Yeah, that's right. But but it also it isn't going to go for teacher raises because you can't give a raise on on a millage. It's going to go for bonuses, if you will. It's going to go for stipens. >> And so so I think that um those that think they're going to get a raise if they support this, that is not the case, right? >> And I think that's going to become pretty

059clear >> or at least it shouldn't because it's >> nonreuring. It's not recurring. >> So then what happens if it fails in four years and suddenly you're out >> now? What do you >> $40 million? >> Right. Right. That's right. It it so >> genuinely I I think that also for me by the way that that as we discuss this that consensus needs to be 100% in my mind like 50. >> Mhm. >> And um and I'm going to do what those of you that have to live with it after the fact. I'm just saying that upfront. But I I genuinely am concerned what happens and if two years we lose $56 million, what does that look like for the district and for those programs that are in place? >> So the the 58% um

060renewal that we got, was that in 18 or 22? >> The last 22. >> So 22. What was it in 18? Do you remember? >> I do not know. >> 56. >> Oh, 56. >> No way. It went up. >> Yeah. >> I thought it went up. >> I can't remember, but it was almost exactly. >> Yeah, it was close. H thought it went down. Okay, >> we pulled it verify but it's right in there. There were there was not a big difference. >> So the one thing to consider also 18 versus 22 and 18 we set up the pack and we we did a lot of messaging on this. In 22 we played that game of well we don't want anybody to you know come out against it or let's let's you know people

061are satisfied with what we're doing with this so let's just kind of lay low and we did not set up a pack for it. >> Right. I guess in this other component here if we're talking about teacher pay and so on so forth I think there are other stakeholder groups who are going to be talking about this which I guess could could be a good thing or it could backfire based on which group that you know so I don't know I'm just saying last go around we did nothing >> well and so the only other resource that I have and you're brilliant by the way so this is >> but I also have my guy who ran who who did manage my three campaigns >> and and I sent him this polling information and he's

062not I guess he's a competitor to what you do but anyway he thinks a lot of you by the way >> he does also nice to hear keep going >> but his concern was because of the slide these are people you're calling saying would you vote for it that does not mean when they're we're in the when they're in the booth that they vote for it you know what I mean like he said there's always a slide people will say great things like yeah I want to teacher rate. So, that's a positive, but when they get there, they're going to go, I'm not going to add another $123 to my tax bill or whatever. >> So, it it's an interesting point because what we we did an extensive analysis of the polling we did in

063from 22 to I'm sorry, from 20 to 22 and then 22 to 24. And that was trueish in the in the 20 to 22 where where we pulled about six point drop on average for some reason last cycle. Um and maybe it was my brilliance just joking of course that we changed how we approached some of this ballot language. Um and the on average changed now I'm taking Monroe County out. I have no idea what happened there because it went up like 20 points. But overall, there's about a three to four point on average slide or it stays the same. Which is precisely why we work so hard, excuse me, on getting the ballot language as high as I possibly can before we we send it to the voters. I like to say when we

064do that, our best piece of direct mail will be when the vote by mail ballots go out because they'll see that and they'll say, "Wow, this is really good stuff." And keep in mind too this election year um you know there's a there's a mis misinformation out there that presidential elections there's more political communications. No because that only happens at that level if you have a US Senate race. We're going to have the entire cabinet up. We're going to have these referenda on the ballot as well. Uh, so you're going to have a lot of political noise out there, which means the better the ballot language, the harder it is if somebody were to come out in in opposition to it. >> The the bottom line was he said he would have felt better if

065it was 80%. Or 85. So >> I I I I feel his pain. Absolutely. The highest in the state, there's two high ones right now. Leyon County is pulling at 76 and I I Bvard which is as you know very very very conservative. They're pulling above 72% for three items. A half penny extension from the schools, a millage increase and a half penny to clean up the Indian River Lagoon. Uh all pulling very very high and those things have been passing like crazy. We've been doing all the work in Bvard as well. I wonder if there's um of course we we only have 75 words, but I wonder if there's a way that that we could almost like reference that we're trying to maintain what we've already got that um without calling it a renewal.

066>> Got six words. >> Wow. Okay. You know, >> well, you can do that through your campaigning. I mean, through your through your marketing. Uh absolutely >> that this is this is not really entirely new, right? That you know, we're >> it's new. We've already got a millage in place. >> Scott, can we say renewish? >> Yeah. Can we use hyphenated words and just extend it? >> The count is two according to the courts. >> Can we renew and go for 0.25 on its own? >> Do two separate initiatives. >> That's interesting. >> I don't I I I don't know. I don't know legally if you can. >> Uh I don't think so. I've never seen it anyway. >> It's interesting. >> I Yeah, I don't know that you can >> separate them. Yeah, >>

067I don't know you can. I don't know if he can. >> It's a good question though. >> Yeah, >> it's a good question. >> An interesting question that a question I wanted to answer. >> Mr. Chairman, that was brilliant. >> Except it's probably a bad idea. >> Mr. Vancor, I do have one more question. um to play politics a little bit. I don't think education is a political issue, but looking at where we are currently in a midterm election um and generally who comes out in a midterm um relative to where we are at the national scale at this point, I think there's going to be a turnout that's slightly more blue this go round, which I think even improves our chances with something like this, even though I I would think that redleaning folks

068would support this initiative as well. Do you think that skew would make any difference relative to where we are currently with politics in Florida? >> Yes. >> Yeah. >> Gently. Um for and it's a complicated answer because >> Florida there seems to be a moat in Florida from the rest of the country. Now, what just happened this week in Texas, uh, 21 point swing, uh, so yeah, it looks like it's going to the trade winds right now, if you look at a bunch of variables, the trade winds right now are blowing prodemocrat pro blue as it were. So, that's the longer answer to your short question, which is, yeah, I do think the current climate will positively impact that, but you could also say the current climate will also include potentially a tax an overall

069tax reduction. Well, what's interesting about the overall tax reduction, it holds every proposal, the only ones that are on the table right now. So, the governor has said he wants to do something, but he hasn't written anything. The Senate hasn't either. >> Uh, and they're reticent to do so, by the way. >> Um, >> all of them hold schools harmless. >> Now, they also claim to hold law enforcement harmless. The math doesn't work on that, so that's what they're trying to work out. But, that might work to our advantage. It also might work to our disadvantage. I wish I had a crystal ball. I put it in my budget. They don't give it to me. But if I had a crystal ball, I could tell you more. And yes, I'd love to get 80%. Sure.

070Uh that's my objective is to always get these things as high as possible. >> Midterms just make me scary because generally you've got less of a turnout in a 26 versus a 28. But with the push from the governor's office, if they do get a ballot initiative on from property taxes versus some reinvigoration uh with the left with trying to center balance some things in their opinion, it could be just how those factors all play together. I mean, old data is important, but really doesn't matter today versus what we're doing at this point. Um, so just trying to be mindful back in the summer and poll again heading into the campaign season. Um, so >> because I agree with Mr. Matias, I don't want to risk losing the the $37.5 million. Um, and just being

071as as sure as we can that we've got the the words in here and we can do the proactive >> the governor measurement, right? So the governor is going to be decided. So I think that's that's going to pull >> that'll help turn out. Yeah. >> Turn out like a lot. >> Yeah. >> So, >> and we doesn't drive turnout are local referenda. Sure. Even other uh amendments on the ballot. What's going to drive turnout is sentiment towards what's happening in Washington. We, you know, when Tip O'Neal said all politics is local, throw that out the window. Now, today in this environment, all politics is national. >> Y. >> Okay. So I think, you know, thinking back to the millillage and when we first decided to do this, I think that there wasn't a person

072on this board that wasn't a wholehearted advocate. We were ready to go. We were ready to do what it took to get that millillage passed. And I think for me fundamentally, I feel like it's time for us to do that with the inclusion of the the teacher and the staff pay. And that I do think it's tricky. I'm not like I'm standing up here telling you guys that that the thought like with all of the political that made me laugh that you said it's not political cuz >> there is a lot of feelings and a lot of um fake news for lack of a better word I'm trying like not communicated well ideas that you know it's only teacher unions that are asking for more pay and that we have more options in school choice

073and that Florida is the number one system in public education and well they don't say public education school choice right so there's it's it is a swirly whirly thing that's happening out there for really really educational terms being used. But I do believe that fundamentally we know that teachers and staff in school districts deserve more money period. I think our marketing needs to be smart. There's no doubt in my mind that it would be. I think the message needs to be clear. I don't think we need to try to mish mash things like it's what we believe just as firmly as we believe in the other millillage. I agree it's scary when you bring the other money onto the table. It is. >> And I do think it's worth the risk. I think that campaigning

074if we need to go doortodoor like that's what we we did. I've done it before. I it's hot. I lost some weight. Like it's good stuff. But like I do thinkers >> just fundamentally important. I this morning on the way here I listened to a podcast but it was talking about being able to fight for what your so your children don't have to fight for it >> and for us to stand up and I've always wanted to be in a position to stand up when it's time to stand up. >> I excellent. But if I take the language away for a second, just ignore the language on these. If I were to say which is the lower risk, would you rather take that one or that one? I would I would argue that's the higher

075risk because it pulls lower. And when we make some of the tweaks that you recommended and Scott and we talked about, I think I think this number actually goes a little higher. Not much because you're starting to hit a ceiling. I wish we can get 80. Uh never seen it. here >> uh children's services councils tend to get in the 80s but uh also raising property tax right but I think if this is to me the lower risk because if polls higher within the same poll I'm not comparing two outside polls when you do that statistically they are both subject to the margin of error so uh if those are different polls you would this and this would be considered by the computer to be relatively equal that the variation is statistical noise it doesn't

076work that way when it's within the same poll because you had actual people who said no to the first one and yes to the second one. >> Yeah. >> I I think it would be an again our spirit has always been to control our own destiny. >> Right. >> Um but for me with the climate with the conversations about property taxes in property taxes even though school districts are held harmless are going to read on there millage increase. I'm just telling you. I mean, here's >> um that I I 100% agree that our retirees, I'm not worried about them because they tend to be very pro schools, by the way, and pro public school. But then there is um I'm concerned that we're calling it teacher pay when it's not really going to it is

077going to enhance their pay, but it's going to be it's not going to be uh an incremental increase to what they're making. It's going to be done through stipens and negotiation. Right. >> Yeah. Uh, I'm also concerned that when we're doing that, uh, are we is there a chance of supplanting those dollars because we still haven't ever talked about our service workers and all those folks that deserve consideration. Um, I'm mainly concerned just putting this money at risk. But, but I promise you, I will be out there campaigning for whatever the sport decides because I won't be running, but I'll be running for this. >> Whatever. >> Maybe our tagline could be better than a Zimp. I I agree. Um what I think makes me feel a little bit better is learning more about the

078statistical significance of what you're saying here on the fact that we only have to get 50 plus one, not 60. We were talking like a constitutional amendment. 60 would scare the heck out of me. >> Me too. And that it gets proposed by somebody every year in the legislature and it hasn't passed yet. >> Um so I I think given where that is, um this I think this recommended language is really good. we can make a couple tweaks that I think make it even better and if we fight like heck like we always do, I'm willing to risk it as well. Um I think we can get this done and I think it's worth it. Um so that my my vote would be to to support going for the 1 mil and get to work.

079>> Okay. Well, we're not we're not voting right now. >> No, I agree. I'm just out there for reach some consensus >> for sure. >> Mrs. cutting him. >> You know, I think that the five of us sit each year when it's time for salary negotiations and we talk about we want to give more money. We want to give more money. Our heart is there. I wish we could. And we all know the constraints that we have. Um, and nothing comes without risk. And I guess I like to think of myself as a risk taker. Um, Mr. Matias, I respect your wisdom. Um, and there's a lot of home truth in what you say. Um, but sometimes you have to risk something to get something else. So, I think that, um, the consensus of how

080I feel is that we need to try. It's hard to sit up here every year, year after year, and say if we had more, we'd give it. We're doing the best we can if we don't take advantage of this opportunity. So, I'm all in for knocking on doors, doing whatever it is we have to do to get it passed. And I know that we can depend on a lot of help from some really good people out there. They're not in their heads and they're going to work hard and I think we'll be successful. So, for me, it's a positive. >> Mr. Dod, >> fighting for our teachers is never the wrong answer. >> Do the one mill, right? >> Good. Dr. Lee. >> Yeah. >> Okay. I'm on board with the one mill. All right.

081So, our next steps will be in regards to the referendum language. It does need to go on on a board agenda for your approval. So, we'll play around with that, send it out to you. You can um make sure that it is exactly as you would like um before we put it on the board agenda. Um and I did have one question because staff um had asked a question. I haven't had a chance to ask you this yet. Um, we know that your poll um showed us that 81% of the voters were more likely to to vote for it if it included the independent citizens committee language. We were curious about strategically, do you form that committee um on the front end um as advocates or does that hurt you if people don't like the

082people you've selected for the committee? What strategically is the best way to form that committee and when? >> I've done this a lot. I've never been asked that question. Oh. Uh I would suggest after for the very reason you identified and it's also a great talking point. Uh let's say you're talking to a group and they say you know I support my teachers but I'm not trusting that you guys are going to spend the money correctly. That's the first person you want to ask to serve on this citizen oversight committee to say sir or ma'am you would you serve on this committee to make sure because you have a lot of protections in this. You have the statute which requires you to spend it on those things. you can't use this and go out and

083buy more buses uh or anything that's a 5-year capital life. And but so you have that protection. Obviously, you're accountable to the to your voters. If you screw it up, they may not send you back. Uh and then third, having a citizens oversight committee, they can wave wave the red flag and say, "Hey, they're doing something wrong with this money." So, I guess in light of that, I would say after the fact, say, "Yeah, we're going to appoint to citizens oversight committee." >> Okay. So, >> can we discuss now his proposal? >> Yeah, if if you wouldn't mind staying right there for a few >> Sure. >> few more seconds. Um, so if you'll recall board back in December, Miss Owens came and did a great presentation on marketing strategies and our statewide efforts. And

084Dr. Luke, you hit it right on the head when you said this is an opportunity to change perception by doing some strategic marketing. And just from across the state, I could tell you that Mr. Mr. Vancorn and his team um are highly respected amongst the superintendent group as well as our chief financial officers, our finance counsel. Um and he's been very successful. So he has provided to us a um proposal to hire him and his company to help Miss Owens and the rest of us to create um our marketing materials which I think um would be a very good use of of our funding. So if you have any questions of this will also be on the board agenda. So, I wanted before you vote on this, I wanted you to ask Mr. Vancor any

085questions you have about his proposal, a little bit about the marketing campaign and all that we're going to be doing over the next couple of months. >> Mr. Brandenburg, >> um my only question is really more for you all. Uh Mr. Cole, Diane, um how do we fund this? Can we pay for this directly or do we need to fund raise for this expenditure of this? I just can we fund can we use school district dollars to then try to increase a millillage or how how is this 25,000 paid >> for his contract? And the answer is yes, we can. >> Yeah. Well, it as long as the activities are appropriate activities that you're allowed to do, then you can use district district funds. >> Are you the person that determines what's appropriate and what's

086not to look at that? >> Okay, cool. Now, that that's just I'm all good with the report. I just want to make sure I understand how we fund it. >> Yeah. >> So, I got no other questions. M >> I hope that's legal cuz we've done about 18 of them. >> Well, good. Well, >> I guess I should have looked at you instead. >> What's the statute of limited, >> Mrs. Cunningham? >> I don't have questions. Um I would just like to say I um would look forward to working with you if the vote is goes that way. Hopefully, you can help us. >> Mr. D. >> No, I I think it's I think it's a smart idea. >> Dr. Luke, >> similar. >> I have just one question. Is a money back guarantee? Yeah,

087I was going to ask that same thing. If we 66% I you have a money back guarantee that I'll do everything I can to help pass this. >> Are you going to pull again whatever this new language is going to be? >> Uh that's that's outside of my pay grade, but I want to very much either the school district can >> Well, I don't I it's 20 grand to do a poll. So, I'd either ask the teachers union if they would fund it. If we develop a PC, would they fund it? the teach union usually does because what we what we try to do looking globally, we'll probably have about 20 to 25 of these on the ballot. What they'll what they'll want to do is poll it and you probably don't want to hear

088this part of it. So those that are doing really well, they don't need to put a lot of energy, effort, or money into, but those that are getting close, they'll want to put their re like we had a situation in uh was it Flaggler where they were at like 55 and fading there was an active group opposed to it. uh when we redid Manatee, all the people who were opposed to it the first time come on board with it. So the teachers union didn't need to spend any more money on that. So uh I would re I will strongly recommend it and I will strongly advocate to try to find the money either through a PC or the teachers union >> board. I would tell you it's critically important. I believe in the math. I

089mean just so you know I believe in the work that you do, the science chairman and so we need to work together. Um, I think that there are some other folks who need to be brought into the conversation like the charters who benefit >> and they have more freedom to how they can spend money and raise money. >> Yep. >> So, we need to begin to develop our own strategy, but I would highly encourage that we do this additional polling once the final language before it's on the ballot. >> You're saying sooner rather than later before we send it. Okay. >> Did you say you didn't? >> Yeah, I love that. Uh so so we'll so the objective will be for us to re redo the language so you're happy with the Scott and then

090uh see if we can get another poll done. >> How many how many of these do you expect on the ballot this year across the state roughly either renewals or increases >> about above 25. >> Okay. And then we've got a list or we can obviously get a list of what the other surrounding counties do from either a 0.75 or a full mill and what they spend it on just as talking points as we move forward on this. So I think that's important to >> I can say you our current list department of revenue keeps track of who's got what and what they go towards and >> I think I think Orange County already does it. >> Oh I think they all do it to some degree. Yeah, Marian does it for different things and

091>> Yeah. Marian just did a 20 year half penny for the roads, >> right? >> I'm sorry. Full penny for roads and a 10year half penny for schools. Plus, they have >> transportation based or something. >> They did a transportation one. That's why I75 is always crowded. Yeah. >> When you're coming by Marian County because people use the interstate for >> intracounty commun uh transportation. >> They're so far behind. >> Yeah. >> Thank you very much for your time. Thank you for having me. Appreciate you driving down. >> Yes, thank you for coming. Um, it was a lovely drive from Tallahassee and I would say it's a lot at least you came a little bit warmer here, but I can't even tell you that today. So, but thank you for all your work, all the

092all your help. >> Okay. 3.03 instructional materials, Dr. Felner. These are on or not. >> Good morning. Thank you. So, we are back having a follow-up conversation after the board meeting last week. Um, I appreciate your time today to have some more conversation around the ELA adoption materials. I have with me today um Bridget Marshburn, our media services and instructional materials manager. I also have several other people in the room that I wanted to um recognize. I have our 612 curriculum manager, Seth Edwards, is in the room. Our K5 curriculum manager, Beth Petty's, is in the room. Our 612 program specialist for ELA, Nissa Oliver Torres, is in the room. And our K5 program specialist for ELA, Sher Smith, is in the room. And so, I just wanted to acknowledge them because we spent a

093lot of time doing this work together. And so they're here today to just hear the conversation and be able to support any way they can. Um I also have Marty Ramirez and Kathleen Daniels in the room um from college and career readiness because you'll see when we get to the fiscal impact it does impact um some purchases in terms of ELA for um college and career readiness. So thank you for being here as well. And then I do have representatives from Benchmark and Benchmark Advanced and McGraw Hill as well in the room. So I just want to acknowledge that. So thank you board for the opportunity to have this conversation. Um I just wanted to review a few things. You do have a folder in front of you. It should have all the slides that

094we'll go through today as well as some of the u materials to include what's included in the especially in the benchmark advanced materials. The pictures are small on the slides. So I wanted to make sure that you had a copy of exactly what is um coming with that recommendation in terms of what teachers will actually receive. So, oh, there we go. So, just a reminder that when we choose materials, we do choose it based on our mission and vision. We also looked at the work that we're doing with the instructional framework. Um you'll find that in the back of your folder there is a copy of the ELA rubric that we adjusted in terms of how we discerned um the components of the of the programs and how teachers evaluated those components on the committee.

095So this is an opportunity for us to have conversation so that next week on the board agenda we can make a recommendation um for the materials that we would like to adopt and then there is an opportunity for the public to petition to object and for the materials and that will be on the website from February 10th through March 12th just in case. So our timeline looks like this. You'll notice that I put this on here again just so that you notice that we do have two big backtoback adoptions. So, as ELA is adopted this year, we are in the process of beginning to consider um the math adoption for next year. So, we have two very large adoptions coming into play back to back. And so, I just wanted to make sure that you

096had that timeline in front of you to know that that's what's coming. So again, um, we have a committee of people that oversaw the adoption process and I just wanted to acknowledge them again and say thank you to all of them for their hard work. So once again, um, we had three choices that were state approved for elementary and three choices for secondary. McGraw Hill, HMH, and Benchmark for elementary and McGraw Hill, Savis, and Think Circa for secondary. Um and again noticing that when we took it to vote to the school sites as well as the committee in the elementary K5 schools, we overwhelmingly chose benchmark advance as our option, our recommended option. So just to look at what comes with that, there are several components. You'll notice that there is an there is um

097every student has a kind of a newspaper reader. they have an opportunity for some small group text. Um it's a K5 comprehensive program. So phonics um the phonics and phmic awareness components all come with that. It is a package. So it comes priced as a package. It was approved by the state as a package. So which is different than what we adopted five years ago and we adopted in kind of some pieces. So this is a little bit different in terms of kind of back to that K5 comprehensive package. There is digital access um for both teachers and students in this in this adoption. >> Is that the bathroom? >> Dusted pipe. >> And so looking at secondary grades 6 through 12, you'll also notice that in the last adoption we had a 68912 adoption.

098Um our three choices were the same. So we have a 612 adoption and um McGraw Hill was the choice. We that is the study sync materials. We also already have study sync for 912 currently. This is a revised edition that met the criteria for the new state adoption list. So you will see it is a revised portion of study sync that we'll be recommending to you. There are some components with this as well. There are some print novel choices. We are going to bring a recommendation with a pricing that includes a novel. Um, we have some choices for consumable or hard or hard coverver copies that it is does include digital access for everybody. And so those are the components most of them that come with McGraw Hill. So I thought what you might be

099most interested in is somewhat of the estimated cost. So for K5, here's what we're recommending for K2 for a five-year adoption. It includes a teachers edition and that the ratios 1 to 18 and 1 to 22 in terms of teachers additions. It includes all of the phonics and phmic awareness program components for K2. You'll notice that comes up to about 1.4. four mill and the English language arts 35 for a 5-year adoption. Um online access assessments for come with about 1.5. We did add in shipping. One of the things we try to include is all the shipping cost and we're looking at an estimated cost of about 3 million >> Amazon >> in 610. >> You want to ask a question? >> It was it was hers. It's a good point. You know, it's a

100shame that there's such a monopoly, you know, and you have to go through the the depository versus, you know, Amazon Prime sometimes. But >> yes, there's some drone or there's robots. >> This is a go pick it up yourself either. >> It's a one stop ordering shop. >> You can't. >> No, we tried cuz I go drive a truck for $146,000. >> Have some trucks. >> I know. >> Nope. in grades six through 10. Considering the the fast tested um tested areas, we um are recommending a teachers edition, a one:1 student consumable edition, online access that includes test prep that is online that can be printed if needed, and a novel for a five-year adoption. So, we did pull some of the members of the committee and they would like a onetoone consumable edition option,

101meaning that students would have a workbook to be able to annotate text versus a class set of just the hard copies of the of the text. I think it will save us on a lot of printing. When we print out articles, we have them right here and kids can annotate and do the work within that and we can see evidence of their thinking. So this is the preferred from the teachers at the school sites. >> I'm I'm sorry. Can I hone in on that on that word novel? So is there is there one novel was included? >> Same thing. >> One novel or is it >> So we have lots of options in terms of the novel. All right. So it is if you order one novel for every sixth grade next year, every sixth

102grade student next year, it would be one novel. >> Mhm. But if we want to order five novels and use class sets for novels, >> we have lots of options. Does that make sense? >> Which one are we picking? >> So we we would like to have some discussion about that. Either way, it's the same price with a novel. >> Um I think I think we have to make some decisions honestly about >> how do we want to roll that out in terms of the purpose of the novel. >> Sure. So if we have a thousand different novels out in schools, it's very difficult to plan for how they align to the benchmarks when I have two ELA curriculum specialists doing that work, right? So when we think about what does every six if we

103think about what does every sixth grader or seventh grader eighth grader need to know and be able to understand. We want to make sure that we align some of the novels that maybe better suit a certain point of the year and an essential benchmark. So we've got some work left to do in that. >> I read a I read an article over the weekend that I thought was rather timely for for this sort of discussion. Um, so it started off just talking about how um, professors in in film programs are finding that their students are unable to to have the attention span to sit through an entire film anymore without pulling out their phone. They said it's crazy because this is the type of assignment that kids would have loved as homework and now it's

104like a chore to go watch a movie, right? But then the article also took a little twist and said this is part of a larger issue in that um, people are finding that kids are not able to read an entire novel anymore because all we expose them to are excerpts. And so I started thinking about my own kids. And I've had three kids now in high school. And I can sincerely count on one hand the number of novels collectively that they've read in high school. And I thought this is just very different than when I was in school. And I think I read more than the three of them total for their entire high school careers in the first year. And um and so I I guess I'm wondering um is is that what we're

105expecting from high schools that they that they're rarely reading a novel or is this is this the direction that we want you to read more than one? Or maybe maybe the benchmarks don't really align with reading a whole novel anymore. I don't know. But, you know, um I I just thought I'd ask the question. >> That's a great question. >> Thank you. >> Of course. Of course, we want students reading novels. Like that would be I would never say no. We want don't want students reading books, right? >> Um >> I also think that if that we have an opportunity and an obligation to teach the benchmarks. >> Sure. and sometimes aligning all those benchmarks to an a complete novel is timeconuming depending on how long it takes to to teach the novel. One of

106the reasons why we're going to bring you a choice, our recommendation is to include a novel is for that very reason so that we know that students at least have read a full book at some point in the year and we can plan for that. So, while we would hope that teachers are still letting kids use independent reading time, we have libraries, media centers that are allowing kids to check out multiple books and we still want to encourage that love of reading. >> The the programs tend to have study sync tends to have more excerpts currently. >> Yeah. >> And so, and that is more conducive to teaching the benchmarks in a way that we can they have a certain portion of the text that addresses that benchmark specifically. So, I understand that alignment completely.

107>> Sure. Um, but we do want to ensure that there are some opportunities for kids to be able to read an entire book. >> Yeah, I'd be interested to see where you land on that. Uh, certainly I I recognize the value of teaching the benchmarks, but then also it's bizarre to think you could leave 12th grade and, you know, not able to read a whole book on your own without >> Yeah, I think we have the we have the challenge and opportunity to figure out how do we manage um how we want it. If it's a district adopted material, >> we have an obligation then to put it out there aligned to the benchmarks and some guidance on how to utilize it. >> Sure. >> And then how how many of those can we do

108right with two people at our office? You know what I mean? So you've got to it's a large we've got to manage that. So we have there's lots of conversation to be had about how many do we want to do? How do we want to roll that out? >> Okay. >> Can I follow up? I have like two or three thoughts. My first thought is, and I'm just going to pick at Mr. Edwards a little bit um here, but like I see The Great Gatsby is one of the novel choices that we have and him and I have had great discussions about that terrible book. >> Anyway, good >> job, Mr. Edward. >> I read it in 10th grade. I hated it. Like I put it in the bottom of all the novels I ever

109read. >> It doesn't mean we have to choose it. It's just >> Oh, that Anyway, I'm totally kidding. I just saw him here and thought it would be a good opportunity to pick on him. Anyway, we've been teaching that novel for I don't even know when it was written if I'm being honest with you guys. So, really long time. So, to say that we have two specialists that are guiding this work, I feel is a little bit disingenuous. We have high school teachers that have been in this district that have been teaching that novel for far longer than this material has been in existence. So, I would certainly hope that we would rely on them to do some of the work and to share the work that they've been doing. I know that that's the

110reason I read it is Jensen was a sophomore, right? And I'm like, I've never read that book. Let me read it with you. to the point of I think she read six or seven. Like Frankenstein was on that list. The Great Gatsby was on that list of all the Pretty Horses. Like there was a bunch of books. That's the only one of my kids that's ever brought home novels. Nobody does anymore. But to that point, they're there >> and the teachers know where they're aligned and I believe they know the benchmarks and how to work that. Like I would certainly think that that teacher would at least. So I think we have a lot more experts than two in the room. >> Maybe there are some opportunities for writing teams to get these people together.

111>> Absolutely. Um the second thing I was thinking it was just in access student to one to one student consumables elementary, middle, high school. My personal experience has been that I cannot get my hands on those books ever. And so I would really like for us to consider that and I hear the argument that we don't ever get them back or you know if if it's if a student takes it home and doesn't bring it back then they don't have a resource. We have to mitigate that. I just feel like that is like probably one of my highest um asks of this this work going forward with such challenging texts that our students are interacting with and knowing that parents there are parents that want to support their kids and they don't have the access

112to support them. I have sat with literacy coaches. I have sat with teachers. I still couldn't tell you how to access the full text online and I have been in that text online. Right? But that I'm just showing you like the level of >> we're not compat. And we talked about telling our story. Let's tell a story that invites people to work with their kids at home. I remember sitting with a principal in elementary school and being like, I how do I help? We'll read every night. I can't cuz I don't have the books that they're reading. So, help me get the books they're reading so that I can then support the work at home. So, >> sincerely, when when my my elementary kid brings home the book that they're the story that they're reading,

113her scores on the test will be 15 to 20 points higher than if we had not read that together, >> right? you know. So, >> so what you're asking for is if we do a one to one consumable that it's allowed to go home. Is that what you're >> they got to be able to come home and and >> something has to be able to come home. And if it's if it's going to be the online version, then I think you need to send directions on how to get into that online version. And I think that becomes a lot more workheavy than just sending the book home. >> And and and truth be told though, you know, if given the two options and I know I can go log on, I don't know that I

114will, but I'm opening her backpack and I see the book. >> There's a book. Oh, now it's my hand. I'm gonna Hey, Ashan, come read this with me. You know, I think that there, you know, there's a lot more reading that happens when when that physical book comes home. >> And I would ask that if that becomes a problem that we can't afford because so many kids are losing books or materials aren't coming back, then that's a discussion we can have. But how do we get those materials available to kids at home is my number one concern with any of our ELA adoption. >> Noted. So my question was similar to that but not quite the same. What what is the thought process on one to one consumables 6 through 10 but not K through

115five? In my mind that seems flipped but >> well they already have it. >> Okay. So I just didn't see that in the listings option. So um the elementary kids the interesting piece is you'll you will see the elementary part come home. All right. >> Um I have actually worked with this particular >> um publisher in other states um the last few years. >> And so they have a basically a it's almost like a newspaper. >> Yeah. >> That's a consumable that has about 10 stories in it. Yeah. >> Kind of compiled I would say. I'm going to guess that might be that might be lofty. >> Sure. >> For each unit it's a three-week unit. And that that that is a consumable. I mean kids are riding in it all the time. They're using

116it. And I I often found that they went home with kids after >> especially after they were done with it. like went home so people could see what they're reading and >> Got it. So all the K through five where just a students edition that is consumable. Yes. >> Okay. Got it. >> And then what is I'm just looking at the differences between the K through five and the 6 through 10 and it seems like the big difference is the assessments and I would assume that's what's driving up that cost being a little more versus the two or am I connecting dots where they don't connect like K through five. So the K through2 includes the teachers edition, students edition, online access and assessments. Same with the three through five. And then on the other

117one, we get the novel but not the assessments. Um, is that just differences between how they're structured or does that make sense? >> So, I think the difference in 610 the the price difference is somewhat of the novel. >> Okay. Um, the novel's about $320,000 is give or take a bit is what a novel as we priced out. >> So without the novel, it's about 1.9. I think it's a it's two totally different publishers for one thing. >> Got it. Okay. >> So that's also hard to compare. >> Sure. >> In terms of the cost. Okay. Right. >> Um, >> so in terms of K2, the reason there's a K2 difference and a 35 difference is just the materials for the phonics and phmic awareness. >> Sure. portion the foundational >> and the the K5

118was benchmark. Is that what we're recommending? Correct. So then those assessments are built in. Do we have different assessments outside of this package that we look at six through 10? >> No, it's it's included as well. >> It's incl Okay. Yeah. >> Just the language wasn't. >> So there's a test prep opportunity. >> Got it. Okay. >> And this is to add on to the cost. This is um the one to one gets renewed every year, but is there going to be an additional annual cost? >> No. >> Okay. So, um, lesson learned. >> Okay. >> Yeah. >> From previous adoption, um, we actually when we did the other adoption 5 years ago, >> that was a one-year, but we had priced and brought to you. It was a one-year cost. So, we've actually spent

119gosh almost was it 300 $300,000 a year >> in foundation materials for the last five years. So we have priced it ahead of time all this time. >> Awesome. >> So this includes this is so basically it's sort of like the other adoptions where you buy it for five years it's coming >> good >> whether you want it or not you just tell them how many you need. You know what I mean? So >> does that make sense? >> It does to that point how many we need. How how does that fluctuate? I mean obviously know how student population fluctuates but like if we lock it in based on these numbers today >> obviously if we need more I think we can get more but if we over buy we just >> still paying for

120those >> own them and they sit in our libraries I know that's impossible to to gauge um >> send them home to with parents. >> Yeah, >> there you go. >> I have an extra copy. >> Yeah, I have an extra copy. So we try you we look at obviously schools share if a one school enrollment goes up and down we try to like >> bridges department does a great job of moving that around to try to mitigate that. >> However just notice we do have to we've used growth planning numbers as well as who's in the seats right now. >> Yeah. >> And we predict as well as we can. >> Sure. >> For obviously for the next five years is a little >> hard. Yeah. And I just think too once you get

121to like the six through 10 level like I think you're going to have a number of students that just will use the online access and be good with that. Um now if you need to do it based off the consumables and it's assignments so then they're going to have to use the consumables for that to to function. I just don't want to the best we can control like not buying one of everything if those students on average or what we see in the data they're not always going to use it. So, if we could buy 80% of one thing, still have the teacher sets or whatever else if those are utilized to the full degree, um I certainly want to get people what they need, but I also don't want stuff sitting around just because

122we have it, but the students that we bought them for don't need it or build it into the lessons. Um just so that's what I've got there. Just more of a comment than a question, but um I I would look at Dr. Luke and Mr. Dodd on those. This is not my wheelhouse. >> It's just a bad system. I mean the problem is if you buy 80% today and you say okay 20% of you don't get the materials because in the future we won't have this many kids in seats anymore well then the kids today don't have books you know >> I will tell you too that I think ELA is a huge adoption right and so when we think about what we need for kids I definitely want I want what teachers want and

123I want what kids need and part of that is having text in front of you right so being able I understand teaching kids how to read digitally I also think it's really important that they understand how navigate text in front of them first. And >> um when we looked at this adoption the last remember we've had this study thing for for 912 and we have not had a 1:1 consumable. >> Okay. I think it's an ask that they've requested in 910 and I would like to be able to honor that request because I do think that's part of the we went from sort of paper to all digital >> and that was a pretty hard shift for us and this is a great option that brings us kind of back to the middle >> that

124allows for both >> at least in the tested areas. So >> okay >> I like it a lot and I have a question on the novel. Are we locked in to a particular novel or can it be changed in forward moving years? >> It depends on how many we order. >> Okay. >> So if you think so it's we get a novel per student. >> Yes. >> Correct. >> Okay. >> So we got when I say we have a lot of options. >> You do. >> We got lots of options. >> Teachers could get together and Okay. I I like that a lot. >> I mean >> if they read them >> I got some ideas. I'm not quite sure how they're going to flush out, but >> well, I can tell you I think

125this is wonderful. I have a grandson in middle school and I am a doting grandma. So, every time he's reading a novel, I buy the novel and we have a Zoom session every single day >> and we go over those chapters. This is phenomenal. I mean, there's such great things that can happen with this. So, I I really like it a lot. >> And we do have novels. I mean, Amplified that we have currently and study both. We have some novels in classrooms for sure, right? And plus all the text sets that we've had previously, you know, >> and I think that's that's one of one of the angles where I was asking my question because I know that we have novels. I've seen them. I've physically seen them. I've seen, you know, shelves full

126of them. I've seen gaylords full of them at the end of adoption. So, I know that they exist. I'm just wondering why kids aren't reading them. That that's what caused me puzzle. Maybe it's not part of the the the scope and sequence or the the blueprint or whatever we call it today. Or maybe the teachers just choosing to do something different. I don't know. But anyway, that's that's where I just really appreciate your comments about having that discussion and involving the teachers and and your program specialists and figuring out how do we regroup and and what's the the standard going forward for us. So, I appreciate that. I have I have one other question, but it's really I think targeted towards the publishers. They're here today, right? Um, so one of the things that has

127been amazing that folks have done in the past, um, that I I, you know, as our team is writing these blueprints, you drafting them over summertime, uh, and I've sat on those teams in the in the past and, um, it's helpful when you have the physical materials to be able to start working all that instead of just trying to view it all online. And some publishers uh, have provided those materials, at least, you know, a set for the people writing the the blueprints to be able to do that ahead of time. Is that something y'all would be willing to do? >> Excuse me. Excuse me, Mr. Doc. Would y'all come to the podium, please? >> Yeah, I think that uh it just makes a world of difference when you can work from the physical books,

128you know, before you've ordered thousands of them, right? So that way you can get a jump start on that work. The >> answer is yesing benchmark if we do that already. >> All right. >> Yes. Yes. >> Great. >> And yeah, from McGraill, the same. We can if NSA, if you don't already have them, I can drop them off tomorrow. I should have brought them today. I do have folders in my car, but no samples on hand. So I can definitely assure that the teams will be adequately prepared to create those curriculum maps for >> Yeah, that's I think that's really helpful. Thank you. Thanks for >> Thank you all for coming. >> Yeah. >> So if we look at 1112, we do have a couple options. >> I'm sorry. Okay. >> I thought we

129were all done. >> That's all right. >> For 1112, um there is there is a way to save some cost. Um you're looking at now kids are starting to diversify in their courses, right? you have some other courses that that students opt for, but in our straight um options, you could do a one one the same as we did 610 with a consumable and also a novel. You'll notice that both options include a novel, which would be which we think is still important. The option two has just a class set where each teacher would have a class set a hard copy of a class set of the student editions and it's a cost savings of uhund and some thousand. So it's not a huge cost savings but it is a cost savings. Um I will

130tell you that our recommendation is option two to bring to you when we talk about the total budget um to do in 11 and 12 and that it doesn't that would include the shipping is less because we would only ship it once, right? The copies would only come one time. It would not be a recurring cost. So when we look at the total impact of of the needs of the instruction materials budget, this is sort of what we're looking at. If you look at the ELA adoption itself, looking at all three of those, you'll notice that that comes to about 5.8 when you take the first the top three lines. Just as a comparison, five years ago, we spent 6.4 in 2021. So, doing a little better. >> That's good. >> Um, and then if

131you add on the advanced placement from college of career readiness, it's about 138,000. We also have a gap year. We've got some materials that we still have to reorder and pay for because we haven't adopted again. Hope is not that's not even an adoption option right yet. So, we have to reorder those materials. It's about 98,000. The consumable shipping, it's about 100,000 and we do have some carryover according to finances, it's about 1 million. So, you're looking at a bottom line of about 5.2. So, >> and when we commit to the um to the vote uh to adopt these materials, we're actually purch our plan is to purchase all of these. >> Yes. >> Okay. >> So, our plan is to purchase when we think about our plan is to purchase the K5 comprehensive package.

132>> Mhm. >> 610 1:1 consumable digital access plus a novel, >> right? >> And 112 class sets >> plus a novel. I just asked because that caught us by surprise one time when we thought we were approving this and they said, "No, no, you all were just voting on the adopting the materials. We didn't actually have the money to buy them and so we didn't buy, you know, A2 science right away." You know, that was another year. >> This vote is the recommendation to approve the pub to approve our recommendation for the publishers, right? Like you're not approving this budget, but I need you. I figured you wanted to know how much it cost before you like approve the >> Remember, we only have three options on each side. So, >> if you don't approve

133this option, we got to go back and you're probably going to say, >> right? >> And this is what the teachers have voted for. >> Yeah. Okay. >> Mr. Ward, do you have any comments on the budget? >> Yeah. >> You want to please come up? >> Yeah. >> I feel like I'm having discussion fun. Um, yeah. So, there's like a million dollars left over and they've been rolling it over in the past because they've been holding off on some of the adoptions that they hadn't been necessary. So, but the, you know, again, they they're going to be buying some reoccurring stuff with that million dollars that they always buy every year in the spring. So, we will we typically uh budget around $3 million each year. So, we'll be looking for another million to

134$21 to $2 million in our budget um during budget season to come up to pay for the rest of it. So, we'll have to find it. We don't have it sitting out to the side. >> Gotcha. Okay. Thank you. >> Any other comments? >> No, sir. >> Are you done now? I'm done with your >> all done. Thank you all very much. >> Thanks. >> Okay, that brings us agenda. >> Okay, board member comments. Uh, nothing really to add today. The groundhog did see a shadow, so six more weeks of this 20°ree weather, so bundle up. But other than that, um, thank you for a productive workshop this morning. Always a pleasure to have some good dialogue and look forward to the work ahead to get the referendum passed. So, it's all I've got. >>

135Uh, excellent this morning. Really don't have any comments. >> No, likewise. Did you know all that? >> I I've got one comment. I got to tell you that that um I've never been prouder to sit on this board and we will work hard and we'll get this one mill done with a whole lot of um collaboration. But very proud of the discussion today. That's it. Superintendent, >> I just want to thank uh Mr. Farnsworth and the great team over in facilities and maintenance. They have been hard at work dealing with um some issues from the cold. And I know that when I spoke to Mr. Farnsworth yesterday, um asking how things were going. They have been out in schools monitoring since 4:30 a.m. that morning. So, they I'm sure they're very tired and they're working

136very hard. Today we did a um Minola Charter was the only school that had significant damage due to some busted water pipes. They did close today and Miss Watts called early this morning and they've committed that to that their family. But all of our schools I think have fared fairly well and um so we just want to say thank you. Please let your team know how how grateful we are. >> I have a question but I'll I'll ask you later. >> Yeah. >> Okay. That was weird. >> So, I know that you've got, you know, agreements to for maintenance with between uh, you know, charters and and whatnot. And I'm not sure I'm wondering how that falls into because it's >> Yeah. >> for the building owner and >> our folks were out there scope

137>> of that over a certain amount of >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> All for because of the rent they pay us. >> Yeah. Exactly. Offset. >> Attorney comments. Oh, he's gone. >> Yeah. He had a um >> with um any objections to a journey. >> Great workshop.