001So we can get out of here to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic with liberty and justice for all. I'd like to read the recording statement. This meeting of the balance is being recorded in accordance with Massachusetts open meeting law. Anyone who wishes to make an audio recording of this meeting must first notify the chair. Please raise your hand and make your presence known if you intend to record this meeting. I just want to make sure I can hear it back. It's being recorded. >> Okay. The meeting is being recorded. Okay. Um what the meeting is tonight. I'd like to make a statement. Um, first of all, I'd like to thank you all for coming tonight and to acknowledge that you are here because you want to ensure that
002everything possible is being done to protect your kids. We realize the full weight of our responsibility for doing whatever we can to keep your children safe. Here's the situation we find ourselves in. While law enforcement works to protect an individual's legal rights, a school system needs to protect a student's legal and privacy rights. We cannot deviate from the leading structure that has been our past practice because it could be perceived as providing a forum that could potentially violate a student's rights. We have sought and received advice on this topic from our legal council as well as our field agent from the Massachusetts Association of School Committees. By definition and structure, our special meetings and workshops do not include public comment. We cannot simply call an emergency meeting for the sole purpose of hearing public comments
003because we have not done so in the past. The only form that we have legal control over is what is said at our regularly scheduled school committee meetings which are posted well in advance. As I said, any deviation from our past practice could be construed as providing an opportunity to violate due process and privacy laws of students. That's why we could not hear your public comment at our goals meeting on September 16th. And that's why we cannot hear your public comment tonight. But we are listening. We are Please believe we read every email you send us. We take it to heart and we encourage you to keep them coming. Thank you for all your patience, civility, and understanding. Okay, with that said, I will turn the floor over to our superintendent who's going to begin
004tonight's presentation. >> Thank you, Terry. Um before we begin a presentation, um I just I want to say a few words too. Um I I'd like everyone to know that there is nothing nothing more important than the safety of our students and staff. We're laser focused on our uh protocols uh including uh that you know we've added the additional um uh police officers to each building. Uh in addition to our safety uh monitors, we're looking to enhance our camera technology. We're looking for vulnerable areas that we're putting uh fencing up around the uh schools and uh we're adding certain alarms on u particular doors um to help with the the safety measures. Um all actions are to strengthen um our uh safety measures that we have in place. Now, I want you to also know
005that in the near future, I'm going to be holding some focus groups so that we can sit down and we can talk about two important issues that I think deserve um uh additional uh safety measures that I that I think we should have as a community conversation. And that is do we want permanently SRO in our elementary schools? and do we want uh fencing that encompasses our entire um school buildings? I also acknowledge that the communication has been brief and generalized and I I I wish I could say more. I want to say more, but what I will say now tonight is that I do believe that we are as safe as we can believe be. I believe in our Fmouth um police department and I know that if there was if we were in
006imminent danger, if there is a threat that needs um you know that needs the police attention to put us in lockdown, they're going to do it when we need to do that. At times we may like we put did an initial two weeks of the um police in the the schools and as we took that uh two days for inside recess is so that we can continue to collaborate assess the situation and make plans. So that may happen on and off. That does not mean that there was a imminent threat there doesn't mean there was a new threat. It just means that we need a time to assess the situation. So, we're taking precautionary measures as they're needed. Although we need to still move forward with our business's hand, which is what we're going to
007be doing tonight, this does not mean that we are not focused on safety. It is still completely crucial for us to do all make sure all of our safety measures are in place and we are in communication with the police uh at all times. Okay. So, please send as Terry had said, continue to send emails. I really appreciate um the parents that are sending their ideas, letting us know that you want to partner because what I really believe is that working together on solutionoriented measures will be what strengthens our schools and our and the district as a whole. So, uh with that said, um we're going to begin our presentation. It helps I think's [Music] not with us tonight. >> All right. So tonight um we are focused on uh the Lawrence Grave configuration and
008I want you to know that as we um think about and excuse me could you please put the sign down while we're looking at that we read blocking it >> or at least that one's blocking >> yeah sorry yeah all of them just that one appreciate it. >> So, we're focused on the Lawrence School grade configuration um tonight, just this portion of um the navigating the future together. And as we um you know, planned and prepared this um as well as talking with um our staff, want you to know that when we talk about the Clipper experience, this is what we're focused on. And so, um, all of our core values, achieving excellence, uh, strengthening our community, um, fostering, uh, mutual respect and honesty, multiple perspectives, um, the the core values that we've talked about,
009um, is exactly what is focused on when we're looking at the future of, um, B public schools. And so, here's our beautiful Lawrence school. And um as you know uh we are um I've already put in a um a statement of interest um to renovate the school. But tonight um with that said and we'll find out more by December about that. But right now tonight we're just talking about the great configurations. So my recommendation is that we reopen the Lawrence school with a three grade configuration. Grades five, six, and seven. move grade eight to the high school um the year the construction begins. And right now that um if the earliest that would be would be 2030 uh the fall of 2030 and then the second is there and the second is that we would
010move grades five, six and seven to the Lawrence Middle School um the year the construction is finalized. And the earliest that would be would be um 2032. >> All right. So the key challenges um that we're address is the declining enrollment. Uh enrollment has been declining over two decades. Uh the need to consolidate. Um there is a fiscal responsibility to reduce the number of school buildings. Lawrence school has the capacity to house three grades and reduce the number of transitions to two. Um the transition students uh feel more connected uh and committed to their schools uh when they spend longer a longer time in school. And so uh with that we're going to start talking about the enrollment. I'm going to turn it over to the call. Uh I'll just read you a couple numbers
011of this side. This is um so as you're familiar with the NStec study. Um so this is this is the uh historic enrollment uh uh for film public schools. Uh you can see in the popup component for the 2014 2015 school year we had 3,547 uh students in from prek to 12. Um and then if you drop down to the bottom line for the 2425 uh school year you had 2,866 students. So that's just under a 20% decline in overall uh student population for the district for that period. Um >> and if I could just um add this this data came from the uh report from NEST um last last fall. So this these this historic view and the projected views from >> sorry >> y and if you go to the next slide is
012again this is projection um for enrolling uh in uh the highlighted blue in the fourth column over that's the school year. So again today the 2425 will be uh 286 and six from last year. Um and it will be dropping down to in the 20 3132 year I'm sorry 2032 to 33 year which is when Lawrence would be renovated and uh students would be moving back in. you have um 2514 uh in the student population uh at that time for the district. Um so to get to focus more into Lawrence in the next slide. So here's here's uh so here's the historic enrollment for again going back to 2015 to 2016 but a seventh and eighth grade uh was 576 the Lawrence to give you a sense today the next slide down that population is
013474 for uh students. So that's just about an 18% decline uh in enrollment. Now the option as taken putting fifth, sixth and seventh uh into the building in the 2032 2033 year. Again, the year that it would be renovated if we're accepted into the MSBA program in December. the projections would have 595 students. So, we're uh just above where we were today in overall number of students. Um close to where we were back in 2014 uh 2015 uh school year. um to give you a a sense of uh the the highest population it's not the number is not on that for Lawrence since was around 820 uh back in 2001 so it had a significantly higher population in the school back in 2020 >> you know that's a higher example one uh that's been in
014my tenure year or two after this 2015 16 was over 600 students schools only space in that building regular to the renovation project. >> Okay. And to add some additional perspective on on the high school, if again um if you look at the 2015 2016 uh school year from grades 9 to 12, uh we had 862 students in the building there. uh today there's roughly 714 um our official numbers I should mention are coming out October first so these are last year's data um and then if you look at the enrollment the projected enrollment for a high school in this case 8 moves in in 2030 uh if the school committee agrees to the recommendation So 2030 would be the year that the construction starts on the large school as opposed to it opening up
015as 2032. So 8th grade will move up to the high school in 2030 and the projection for the high school is uh at that point will be 833 um uh students. If you if you take out uh the eighth grade uh out of that 833 just to give you another perspective that number will drop to 611. So without the eighth grade six with the eighth grade 833. >> Yeah. One of the one of the considerations in the part of the discussion over the last year has been you know the remodel completed in in 2010 with the high school as it built to capacity about 1,200 or 1200 plus. And so one of the considerations when you think about 812 or 68 is if you have the high school as a 912 building you're going to
016have a 1200 student building with 600 plus students in it and then think about how that cascades down to what the capacity then looks like at middle and then elementary. So just in the sense of having a really good facility built for a large number of students, the consideration at least for us A12, there's many reasons to do it. One of those for our specific community is that we have a high school with that kind of capacity that has the room to be able to do that and and and do it well. And also the impact if you go 912 having a small number in that large a building while other schools are more towards capacity. So earlier Dr. Dur had talked about one of the challenges that we face um is the number of
017transitions that students make as they go from school to school because we know that that the transitions can be disruptive to student learning. So what we did was we reviewed the grade configurations for the number of transitions students made across the 24 schools in the old colony region. We're part of the old colony region. So if you take a look at the um the slide there, you'll see the number of transitions K to 12. So of the 24 schools, we just kind of mapped out how many transitions um the schools had. So there was one school, Martha's Vineyard, had only one transition for students K to 12 and then um for two transitions, 17 schools within the old uh colony region. And then for three transitions like Fountain has there were six schools. So the
018majority of the schools within the old colony district um have uh just the two transition schools like Nash DY Sandwich. >> Tim was coming off about that impact. >> Yeah. So I think you know Mr. Bushy and I don't see, you know, how we have to manage that now with two quick transitions that happen in the middle grade years. Um, and having students for two short years and then moving on to the next grade, then on to the high school. The challenges that are involved with that, getting to know any group of students takes time with an entirely new staff. We do, I think, a lot of work. We do it well in the spring each year to make that transition happen. multiple meetings and notes that are shared and visits that happen so that
019students are comfortable. Um, but it is a transition and when it happens quickly that it's like I think we get to know our fifth graders and before we know it it's halfway through sixth grade and we're ready to see them go off. So it was definitely a challenge with that many transition filled into their school grade. So we continued with the uh regional view on the grade configurations and we noticed that moving three grades at the middle school was most popular. Um 6 to 8 and then 5 to 7 was the most eight districts enroll in grades 5 to seven in the same school. And then when we looked at the high schools similarly um eight districts enjoyed 8 to 12 in their high schools. Other towns you may recognize baro and mans. So as
020we uh reflect on the recommendation that was made at the top of the presentation we start to look at support and flexibility relative to the two groupings 5 through seven and 8 through 12. Key factors that we looked at when making determinations about how to assign uh grade configuration in the middle school is reducing transitions as Sandy just mentioned, ensuring that we have developmentally appropriate pedigogy. So focusing on how we instruct our students and making sure that it's matched their readiness and alignment with community needs and priorities. Lure enters into the conversation um from the perspective of the department of elementary and secondary education. Lure is set up um so that uh educators can be licensed for grades five through eight in the subject or content area and then historically it been 9 through 12
021and that is shifted into 8 through 12. And then in the past couple of years they've also introduced middle school specific licenses one being for humanities so partnering ELA and social studies and one being for STEM and they're partnering math and science again focusing in on middle grades. Um, and with that, one of the things that we continue to look at is that middle schools largely enroll, as Sandy pointed out, three grades, some have four, um, but fewer are limited or restricted to the two grades. And part of that is the resource base and some of these, um, pieces that we're talking about reducing transitions. So focusing in a little bit more specifically again keeping it uh in the context of the recommendation of 5 through 7 and 8 through 12 we put uh attention
022on curriculum and pedigogy and instruction. So uh in responding to the wide variance of middle school grade configurations we recognize that national and Massachusetts state standards are organized in grade bands. Um but within that each grade has its own specific expectations. um and each one connects to the other so that it they're vertically aligned. Reconfiguration of our middle school gives space to reconsider um where the starting point is for accelerated math as an example, but other enrollment opportunities that are available to students and reconfiguration also allows for stronger tiered um intervention with access to more resources. And I think Tim alluded to that point just a second ago when you're when you're talking about a student being with you for two years and you're really getting to know them in the second year and then
023they're moving um versus having them for three years and being able to continue to more readily personalize the support that we provide for the students. So, we recognize that students transitioning into grade five will need additional support in the areas of both their self-management and their social emotional skills. We recognize both of these areas. Now, they're they're targeted for our students who transition into the more fun school. So, we would continue to plan to provide that explicit instruction and executive function skills. things like organizing and taking responsibility for your actions, managing u materials and then again for the social emotional skills. Again, um specific instruction to help students with their inter and interpersonal skills needed to help manage their emotions, build relationships, and make those responsible decisions. Um it's important that we continue to monitor
024um key indicators for students like their academic performance, um attendance, chronic absenteeism to make sure that we're identifying any students who may who may need a higher level of support with the students who could be at rat at risk. Um there are also some some benefits of the age group that five six7. um thinking about opportunities for peer mentors. So younger students can benefit from um older students who can model their skills and behaviors in enhanced leadership opportunities for the older students and then opportunities for social competence more collaboration negotiation with a more diverse range of students bigger bigger groups. So the also decreasing you know having 567 is going to decrease that uh future need for students again transitioning into another school as we have now with seventh graders who have to do that
025transition again. >> So um what we did is we conducted a focused study on uh on the fifth grade configuration models. Our our concentration work was on three areas. First of all, comparison of found uh achievements with the 24 districts of old colony regions. We also looked at a benchmarking of found performance against 10 mass districts with similar characteristics. It's generated by Desi. And finally, we did a a review of academic literature and fifth grade models. What we found out is that um that there are in both of the uh first choose um characteristics it it's basically uh most elementary uh schools were in elementary settings it was like 55% of the old colony region had it and with the generated uh range it was 50%. So it tend to be more in the elementary
026uh uh range but research showed that oh sorry >> what is it >> at least 55% >> correct >> so 55% is the um about 55% of the schools in the old colony region was in uh elementary and then in the second one which has been benchmarking it was 50/50 it was a it was you know most of them it didn't matter. It was half more some of them were in middle school, the other more were in >> Oh, the placement of Okay, I'm sorry. Sorry. No, I just missed like the >> No, no, no. But either way, no matter which which area when we look at the uh achievement uh vomit um outperformed uh the schools in in in both districts. And so and what the research said is this is that um the
027location is not the primary. They said that if you want success the real primary thing that you have to concentrate is pedigogy you know high quality ped pedigogy uh culture a culture that's supportive and addresses the social emotional needs and systems of support and finally relationships uh looking at teacher educator relationship where every student is felt is learned and valued and supported. So where they are is secondary to how we put them and how we teach them. So, as we continue to um move through the grades, we also uh want to put some attention to grade 8 being included in the high school and the information as we um continue to look at that and previously mentioned that it's an opportunity for accessing accelerated or advanced courses like math. also students um at Lawrence School
028beginning their world language but being able to accelerate their world language uh faster, improving um persistence rates into found high school. Um and part of that is students having access to elective opportunities as well as our career technical education including exploratory opportunities um so they can try out different pathways before they make a commitment to one or to two in which they're going to study. um also increasing opportunity and access to advanced courses including honors and advanced placement or AP courses and all of the increased um access available to students as well as our continued commitment to strong tiered one instruction um improves outcomes for students. So increasing equity uh along the way and excellence. So, similar to the the previous slide that I spoke about as we focus on transition for the eighth grade
029students going into the high school, it would be similar to the supports that are currently in place for our ninth graders. When we think about the academic and social emotional um supports they may need as they make that transition. So, we would continue to plan for that programming um focus again on that relationship building which is that common theme. Um, it's also when we think about having that longer uh grade span at the high school, it gives students um a better opportunity to develop longerlasting relationships not only with their peers but also with their teachers and also helps build a stronger um community. Um from uh um the um families, you know, we would continue just as we do with our um ninth grade families as they're they're currently going into the high school providing
030them with that clear consistent communication about course options and expectations and then the available to etc. And then with regard to safety, there was wasn't any statistical indication of increased safety risk by placing the eighth grade students um at the high school. And then there were some additional considerations um with regard to the capacity at the high school. Um and I think Alan was going to speak a little bit more about that, you know, having the the space at the high school and how we would align with the other Cape districts, the athletic opportunities. >> Yeah. I mean, I I first visited to meet the staff at Family High in June of 2022. And when I came out to visit and meet them, uh, stopped in the hallway two or three times and asked if
031anyone had talked to me about the eighth grade coming to the high school. I mean, that when I was a new principal and I hadn't even started. So, just the conversation at the high school among among uh community members, among staff about the eighth grade coming of the high school to me has been in place for for some time. There are many aspects of it. I think one of those that we touch on that's there is uh students in eighth grade and are often exploring what do they want to do when they are in high school, what do they want to choose a career, where do they want to go, are they interested in the arts. One of the challenges with adolescence and early adolescence is you can tell them all kinds of things, but
032seeing it and touching it really changes how they how they connect with it. So, one of the real benefits of eighth graders being on the high school campus is the chance to see our multiple career and experience those opportunities within the school to be in the athletic programs, to be in our arts and marching bands when they're in eighth grade before they're making decisions about other schools and other school options. So we do think a retention of of of students to the high school is certainly an asset. But I think beyond that uh the connection that students have when they start in nth grade uh the transcripting begins and having the students at the high school in 8th grade as part of that you're able to do greater tiered intervention and greater tiered supports. So
033you're able to think about their real readiness before they're in those transcripted classes in nth grade and supports that are around them. Uh so there's I think there's many assets that are there and and I'll cover some of those a little later in uh discussion about what was their teacher said. >> So I did we did another u study as well like the fifth grade with the eighth grader where it should be either in the high school setting or middle school and we use the same kind of benchmark. We use comparison, benchmarking and review. And what we saw is that uh in both configuration whether they're in the middle school or the high school uh promise students consistently outperform their peer uh districts whether it's regional in the old colony district or whether it's in
034the desi um identified districts and so we're so that is that is the fact uh but the again the research overwhelming says the same things that it does not matter where it is it's a secondary factor what matters again is pedigogy how we are teaching not simply where we're teaching it's it's and I believe that Fment uh is committed to teaching excellence is uh in in creating a supportive culture and educators who are care deeply about the students. So again it's it's very similar to the fifth grade but it's it's how we teach Okay. What is some of the feedback then from uh the community at large and um and so as you can see from the screen uh we had for the navigating the feature some 227 responses. Um overall the most common topics
035uh common responses you know the two most significant outcome were do not merge T ticket in East F and then move to redistrict uh and then the second was renovate the mall school. So those were the two most uh common. It was only 18% of those 227 responses had actually shared some level of preference for brake configuration on law school post the renovation. So it is there was a small a bit of a small number on that 227. You know for example there was seven that were grades 5 to 7. There was 28 for 6 to 8 uh and uh two were for grades combination of grades 5 through 8. Um, additional there was 25 that added fifth to the elementary schools. Uh, and move to the high school had 15 responses in favor. >>
036Oh, I'm sorry, Dr. Stevens again. >> Sure. >> Thank you. So you both seven had seven uh respondents that would favor that move and and a respondent by the way could respond to multiple um u multiple categories. So it's not exactly cumulative if you go through these numbers. 60 for great configuration 66 through 8 to 28. The grades 5 to 8 combination for two. We're adding fifth grade to the elementary school 25 in favor. Um I move a to the high school 15 were in favor. not moved uh six. So again there was um about 18% of this population of 220 seven responses address the middle school preferences structure of note on that piece in those surveys was that there was a request in in that piece of the majority of 188 the high school
037and also 186 to8 in the middle, right? Which is which is part of this work times, right? Is is that the Yeah, ideally you have 68 and but you can't do both, right? Um but just making sure as a school committee you're you're processing in this uh the the majority and information you'll see some of the teacher piece about that 8 to 12 at the high school. if that decision is made at least the next one. So last spring um I did a survey with just um staff uh only um there are 233 responses as you can see 71% u were our uh educators u our unit a um so our teachers um counselors um all the uh educators that fall into that group. So the next slide um so the question is to uh
038what degree do you think the district should be reducing the number of transitions? Uh you can see there was 52% that agreed or strongly agreed um that we need to reduce um the transitions. Laura, can I just pause the what uh 233 responses out of what is the number that that could that could have responded just sort of from baseline of um so it would be the four units but >> no it's just under Okay. So, um so that was the transitions. Um and then we had um the grade configuration. So, you can see uh that 37% for the highest percent uh requested grades five, six, and seven. But a close second um was for uh grades u 35% was for grades six, seven, and eight. So, um so what this tells us is really
039you can't go wrong in in the preferences. um which whichever way you go um whether it's 567 or 678. I just want to um also say the other strong compelling reasons um for being at the high school. >> So as we um continued on, we had the snapshot of data that Paul spoke to from earlier on. um the staff data that Laura just spoke to from the spring and then an opportunity this fall to follow back up with teams of teachers. So here uh we have some information that was shared with us by grade five teachers and their focus group looking at opportunities um identifying that students in grades 5 through 12 it's a good age group to keep together. they already travel together, so we would be introducing new age groups. Again, pointing out
040reduced transitions, which is something that we've heard echoed through the presentation. Um, there are other places where we already have three or more grades together. So, thinking about the elementary and the high school, so three grades together didn't feel like a big change. Um, continuity of care, which is part of what we've been talking about. the longer that we have students together in one school, the more we get to know them, the more that we can personalize the response for them. Um, the access to additional opportunities, just as we've spoken and Alan gave us some great examples about what it could look like for eighth graders at the high school, um, students having opportunities to access the different activities and, uh, extracurriculars, athletics that are available at Lawrence. And then our peer mentoring program continues
041to grow in its opportunity um for the students to be met and support each other as well. So beyond those opportunities, I think Tim has some other pieces he wants to share here around the considerations. >> These are some of the logistical considerations that the staff shared for that configuration. Thinking about what a space could look like and how um students would function within it. We'd have to spend some time thinking about how students would pass from class to class. In the elementary grades, you be going around the building with your classroom teacher and sort of transitioning into a space where you continue to do that for a bit. Then move on to giving them more opportunity for independence. So now you kind of make that transition happen smoothly. Um obviously another need would be
042for recess. You're going to need playground um to have recess outside for kids to continue recess in that building. Um how we do that impact on children's beliefs and development. um just thinking where they are in life. They how they are when we started in fifth grade. They seem really they seem smaller to me now. I'm used to that age level where they're kindergarten in the building, but they they're still really really young. They do a lot growing in those two years that we have them now and certainly three years um the seventh included. So just want to you know make space for all of those developmental needs with one million. Um, fifth graders may need their own lunch. How we, you know, structure our lunch, our lunch schedule for each of the individual grade
043levels that will be in that building. Um, how you monitor common spaces? You want to have, you know, obviously have good eyes on, um, the day and making sure students are safe and and involved managed and to help facilitate social development, too. We're thinking about recesses and opportunities to play. For instance, um, adults are there too to help, you know, facilitate social development. It's not just in completely free time. It's part of the learning experience. So to do that though um and then attention to configuration and grades spans and the standards. So the topics we cover um how we have grade level meetings and and looking at the instructional piece for um a configuration at 5 through 7 would be part of the planning we need to do. So here we have um a focus
044group which is the eighth grade teachers and what we saw are several important logistical considerations that uh that need to be identified as eighth graders transition to the high school educators highlighted the need for districts to plan for careful uh carefully in these areas. I I uh I identify a couple of ones. The one is the transportation. I think first two transportation needs. We need to develop new routes and schedule to support a transition. Uh some teachers said that we we really need to make sure that the eighth grade structures and teams are put together. So determine how current team structures will be adapted or reconfigured. Uh educator uh lensure or certificate certifications expand certifications to ensure that appropriate coverage of middle school and high school subjects and staff cohesions. uh building collaboration and alignment
045among new and existing staff. Uh we're confident that our our staff, our leadership team can address it. Uh I think um Dr. Harris can can give you more on that, but really toward the opportunities that can. So one of the one of the challenges that many high schools face as the uh enrollment uh declines within the school is the capacity to be able to offer both exploratory or elective opportunities as well as um athletic and other extracurricular opportunities. Right? So they end up having to drop a marching band because you don't have enough students or having to drop certain electives or other things because you don't have enough staff to be able to do that for the number of spread. One of the things that eighth grade teachers I think wisely wisely pointed out was
046that when you bring eth grade staff into the high school, you create more flexibility of where and what teachers can teach and being able to provide more opportunities. If a teacher coming to the high school in eighth grade as an eighth grade teacher, then that increases the amount of staff that are on campus to be able to be a club adviser, be a coach in the afternoon, do those things and provide those elective opportunities that otherwise may not have been there. the considerations of uh thinking about eighth grade and I think as as Tim talked about everything from how they have lunch and how they move through the school and those considerations are things and I appreciate very much the timeline on this. I think many talking to other colleagues at other high schools they
047aren't given an adequate amount of time to really prepare the school prepare the staff and prepare the logistics within the school for that successful transition of what it looks like for eighth graders. how they're there. Those elements that are real strength at Lawrence, the walking field are some of those elements to make sure that those strengths are held as we look into the into the new opportunities. Um, the other thing as you consider this is when you're looking at this, uh, regardless of what configuration happens at the high school, we've been talking for a year plus with our staff that the future of the high school with career opportunities, dual enrollment, and other things requires a reconsideration of the bell schedule and a reconsideration of the start and end of the school day. And what
048it looks like having the high school open and accessible beyond the school day. So I think important when you think about 8 through 12 is this isn't 8 through 12 on the 722 to 203 bell schedule. This is 8 to 12 with our staff having the ability to rethink the day start and end of the day. The supports that are there beyond the day. What do schedule and time and credits look like along the day? It's that opportunity to design the high school of the future 8 through 12 that I think is where staff get excited having the opportunity to do that and what opportunity is there. It's tough sometimes to see this and and not see it in the same construct. The timeline gives us the ability to be outside of this time construct
049and that's an important element. >> So what we've done um is that we we've addressed the um enrollment. even address um the need um to move three grades in and then reduce the number of um transitions. We've talked about the academics, we've talked about uh the social emotional piece, we've talked about the achievement and we've shared uh data from uh the community survey, from the staff survey, and from two focus groups specifically around fifth grade and eighth grade. you know, teachers that um work with the grade level and um share. We're going to move to now just um to hear a little bit more from our principles um uh first uh principal Adams and then principal Bushy and then principal Harris around um our recommendation. Um, sorry. Uh, just from a personal parent perspective, um,
050my oldest son is in 8th grade currently in a neighboring district and the school configuration there is grades 7 through 12 in the high school setting. So go from a sixth grade that's team taught very much like Morris Pond is where you have two teachers maybe a third doing some elective work for some enrichment and primarily two teachers up to an individual schedule like you'd have at Lawrence here but inside of a high school building um and actually you know initial trepidation as a parent to now really seeing a lot of the benefits as an eighth grader that has had um academically being able to access advanced placed courses like taking algebra as a freshman but taught by a teacher part of the greater math department and had previous experience teaching upper grades and teaching
051advanced mathematic in the high school setting. So you bring that skill set to the eighth graders immediately within the same building which has been really exciting. Um among others I think that Alan Dr. Harris has mentioned too language opportunities um seeing what you can get as a certification as a high school student with high achievement in the world language that you're part of that same department um is real. I think from a social emotional standpoint, something that stood out for me is the opportunities for student mentors with our older high school students for eighth graders. Um, and seeing that firsthand when you have extracurricular activities and the varsity players taking you under their wing and almost functioning like older siblings in a lot of areas. He's getting to hear about what it's like to apply
052for college and think about career readiness >> from a lot of different kids. So sometimes if you hear from your own sibling it's like well what's my brother's perspective right it's different you hear from others and you get that knowledge so that's been a real benefit it's been a smooth transition honestly um as an educator um looking at the middle school configuration that's being proposed and I know this has come up on a couple of slides I really want to emphasize the continuity of services and benefit that would bring uh when we look at the diagnostic results we get for our students in the fall winter spring and the planning that goes around that to provide supports across the spectrum of ability. Um, continuing that work year to year is just easier when you have
053them all in the same building. Again, um, I think like I said earlier, I think we do a lot of work in the spring. We get our transition ready to go from sixth to seventh and I know eth up to the ninth grade. When you just get more time, you can pick up those you can pick up that story again in the fall with the same staff working with those students again for one more year. I think it's just going to provide tremendous benefit. And the same for the social emotional supports we can provide. Our counselors get to know students um very well get to know their families and having that third year in a configuration like it's being proposed I think can only help those supports be even that much more effective. So I'm
054really excited for the opportunity that it provides me to say thank you. Um first >> no just to just to piggy back on the the transition piece. You know I echo uh all that u Tim was just saying the transition visa has been brought up as transition is going to tricky parents and guardians as well. So uh we do uh work very hard with our incoming uh seventh grade students uh to you know put family members at ease about that transition process. So, you know, homeless transition, uh, learn different drop off and pickup patterns, uh, stay day times, that kind of thing can alleviate stress for for family members. Um, professionally, I will say in a previous role, uh, I I worked in a high school where eighth grade students were, uh, part of that
055school building. And, uh, I I I I don't always like to compare us to Barnstable, but, uh, that was the former district I was in. and uh you know say what you want it was it was working there in Barnsville. Uh but I will say uh more confidently uh that uh as a parent in this district with a current eighth grade student and uh and uh one at the high school and two that have left the high school like the eighth graders can soar at that building not just because of many opportunities that you've heard about but also because of the culture of care that's prevalent in that space. uh just being able to know that kids are safe in that school building. Uh, one more piece I would I would like to add is
056that the staff at at the administrative and administrative leadership staff at Lawrence and the department head as the curriculum council work really hard to hire uh staff members that uh are not just qualified but that are are skilled uh compassionate and flexible and will be able to step up to the task. uh whichever uh whichever uh building they move up or down into. And I and I and I believe that that's the case at more spawn grades five and six as well. >> One of my one of my mentors Dr. Shaw would would say to me remember Adam that every solution creates a new set of challenges and the and the best you can do is be conscious about those challenges when you walk into it. Right? And so we would be foolish to say
057that when we move 8 into 12, there are challenges associated with that that we have to consider. And officer Herz certainly raised some of those and community members have raised some of those things that that certainly are there and important that we think about. Obviously the needs of 14 and 15 year olds are different than the needs of 17 18 year olds. And I think one of the things the reason I feel so lucky to be in F public schools is other places I've worked and where I have colleagues where this consideration is being made to be implemented in a year or two. This is being made with consideration to be able to do it well. And I think the thing that's important for me that that you that you know and understand is we
058recognize that in order to do this well our absolute strength are our people and our programs. It is our staff and our faculty. And when they have the opportunity to deeply consider this and think about how we do it well, staff are already excited about thinking about the ninth grade teams they used to be able to have that because we have fewer staff, we weren't able to maintain and how you could think about an eight and nine combination and be able to keep the teaming piece that's there at Lawrence and how that happens. But more importantly to be able to think about how they do this well and be able to think about what are the challenges and then plan accordingly. that include thinking about the building, thinking about the time structures and things that
059it is that I that I mentioned. I think with with that time being able to think through the logistics, the the scheduling and those pieces, there is no question in my mind that in my time in education more than ever, there are students in 8th grade and ninth grade who are wanting to accelerate very fast and that opportunity should be there for them. This provides that in a very different and exciting way. We also know that when you allow students to excel, there are students who have struggled that you can worry can get lost in the mix. That's where I think our staff and faculty have an absolute strength given the time will be able to meet their needs in ways that other districts and schools that have done this have struggled because we do
060have a depth of support staff that given the time to play that would would be able to do it really well. Um I think you know and I being part of the building needs committee I certainly you know historically the different traditional co traditional structures have their benefits but none of them are thmouth public schools in 2025 thinking about our future and what we want for our kids and uh with our people and what they can do. I said many times never worked with a staff that's more qualified and more caring about kids. have total confidence if they're given the time frame to do it and the fiscal and staffing supports to be able to do it and an open slate to do it well. We will welcome the class of 2035 with open arms
061and they'll have great success. Um I'm very confident as part of the building task force. uh we the recommendation that was made and appreciated. I appreciate that be on that committee and the really heartfelt discussion that happened there considering all all of that. But with that, the building task force recommended or recommends that lower grade configuration as 5 through 7 and 8th grade goes to the high school. So, with all of that said, I'm going to repeat what our um recommendation is is that we reopen the Lawrence School with a three grade configuration, grades five, six, and seven. We move 8th grade to the found high school the year construction begins. That gives them three years to plan and one year for communication. Um so, four years out. Um we move grade five, six, and
062seven to the Lawrence Middle School. the year construction is f finalized which there always would be 2032 which gives a lot of years to plan thoughtfully um uh on how we want the uh Lawrence Middle School to open and be supportive of uh grades five, six and seven. So with that we thank you and um discussion among school comms we'll just go around the road. it's quicker and okay so Mike you're the first one >> thank you kindly Terry um I got a bunch of questions my first one is that looking at slide five uh which is the enrollment historic view you can see roughly a 20% drop from 8th grade to 9th grade and that seems to be the biggest drop if you kind of go down diagonally you can See a couple people
063here, a couple people there. 8th to 9th is to go from, you know, 275 to 223, 306 to 252. I'm just following the next grade down on a latter slide. Dr. Tier said that uh there would be retention of enrollment at FHS. >> Mike, could you stop? I'm sorry. >> Sonia would or who'sever running that slide, could we see the slide to which Mike is referring? It'll be slide five. It's the first chart of enrollment which is actual numbers and then the the trend goes on to the you know guesstimated numbers um >> historic view. >> All right here. So if you look at the the top line which is uh you know grade 8 it says 275. Then if you go down one to the right one which is next year's grade nine it's
064223. And then the same, you know, grade 8 2010 says 290. You follow it down to the right, it's 240. Off the top of my head looking, it's roughly a 20% drop. People going from 8th grade to high school. Now, later on, it says that doing this would retain enrollment at FHS. Is there any data behind that or is that just a guess? Because my guess would be people would leave after seventh grade who are going to a a private high school, a Catholic high school, etc. You might have some people that are going to the Vogue or Sturgis staying that extra year, but I would guess that most people if they're leaving for high school, they're leaving. So, how do we retain students with this new grade, this proposed grade? I mean I one
065it would be a mistake to think that we're saying we will capture all retention. We're not. We're what we are saying is we believe there are fewer students. >> Yeah. >> Particularly related to the career tech field that would choose the career tech field. And here's why. Currently, students who are in seventh grade or eighth grade at Lawrence don't have the opportunity to really live, experience, and see the actual classes and experience our students have. And with that, they're being sold on the CTE school from the time they're in fifth, sixth grade. Our belief is that having the opportunity to be at the high school, more of those students would see that and who are currently saying they prefer to go to a CTE, right, would stay at the high school. But in no way
066are we saying that it immediately eliminates that. The reality is there are five competing high schools competing for students. We think this gives us a greater chance to compete. >> I guess my question is is there any data or research that backs that up other than anecdotes? Because I mean we have found academy in town which what's I I don't understand how we can say that we can retain enrollment FHS when in reality we could hemorrhage more students from that seventh to eighth grade shift. But if I keep on going here, the next one I wanted to talk about was Oh, actually Henry, do a quick one for you. Henry uh and Sandy actually you talk about, you know, 20 uh the regional view on transitions and all these schools like 24 schools >> and
067then you had said like there was 10 that was similar and whatnot. >> What are those schools? >> Because I mean you mean >> Yeah. Can we get a list of those? >> Yeah. But there's Barnesville, Borne, Dartmouth, DY, Dmus, Fair Haven, Fair River. >> Okay. >> Lakeville. [Music] >> And then my next question for Paul is I keep on here. All right. Survey data staff and family community. It says the 227 responses. And I you had said numbers. cuz I wish that the numbers had been here but you had said that it was like a 3 to one who wanted 678 I believe it was 25 which would have been half of the respondents cuz 22 27 18% roughly 4550 people I think you would said 25 and 28 wanted the 678 and only
068seven wanted the 567 I will say I I I have my ideas I've heard people's emails and the line, but I don't think any of us can vote on anything without having the data and the research. There's a lot of buzzwords in this, which is great. And and then the whole idea about the transition, which was covered a lot, it wouldn't make a difference the transition number based on the grade configuration. I think that without data, without understanding what we're doing, and considering that you're saying 2030 roughly, I think it was 2030. Um I I don't see I personally think we should come back with actual data and research because a lot of this stuff here and I mean this wouldn't the achievement of grade five students review academic literature on grade five models and
069the same thing with grade 8 but nowhere does it say any data or research on which is better and why. And I will close with this because I've talked a lot. I had a friend of mine, Caitlyn, and she doesn't live in this town, other town, and she had heard about this. And she had told me that if she was in eighth grade with a bunch of high school football players, she would have been pregnant by ninth grade. And I know that's a big concern with the community and I just want to address that. And again, can we get a domestic uh abuse counselor, an SRO in here? Because we really there's not enough here for us to make a data research driven vote tonight in my opinion. And that's all I'll say. Terry, thanks.
070>> Uh thank you for um the recommendation at least. That is what we asked for in August at our last special meeting. Um to follow up I guess first on Mike's question and somebody I think I think we did a slide where I said there's no statistical indication of increased safety risk. There wasn't much said about that. Can you expand on that? That's my first question. Well, I guess I guess to go to answer like what what uh Mike was saying, you know, looking for research um there there isn't any statistical when you when you're searching for it, there isn't any statistical like journal articles and things that are not just you know US news or you know things that are um looking for true rights through data through research are stated. It's limited in
071terms of anything that's current or relevant like within the past 10 to 15 years. And what's available for most of the research just points to when you're determining what grades to configure, building strong relationships, having resources and materials that are developmentally appropriate and building a strong school culture. So more current research says grade configurations vary community to community, but as long as you're you're personalizing that experience for students, it leads to stronger outcomes for students. >> Can I ask can I ask a follow question? I don't jump on my line. But that being said, if there's no data research either way saying this is better, this is better. We should be looking at the the 227 people and the emails that we're getting and they all kind of point one direction. So I think that
072would be more important is to listen to the community and the 227 which seems to be overwhelmingly 678. That's what I've seen. But again, this is all anecdotal, which is why I was looking. I mean, I would like to have more stuff done in the community because if that's the big driver is how the community reacts, we should get more information on 227 people. I think >> I'm sorry. >> Uh, so I I agree. I think we need last year's survey is irrelevant in my mind because the oxygen was sucked out of it by the two ticket merger compensation. people weren't focused on grade configuration at that time. Um we need a new survey that is focused only on this one topic. I think we also need um community if not I'm not that fond
073of community forums because it's just an opportunity to talk. I would prefer if we had an event similar to the one that we did for the um the equity audit where people sat down in a room round tables. There was somebody who presented data who is a third party preferably like we did with the equity audit. Present the data and then let people talk in small groups that are moderated and you get feedback in that way and that way it's um actionable feedback and you're gathering it from people who really care and want to have the conversation. I've had a lot of conversations in the last week especially. People do seem to be focused on the gray configuration now and of those people many I would say most of them and previously I have heard
074a mixed bag but in the last week it has been only people who really feel strongly that fifth graders are children they're little children Tim said it very well they are not able to negotiate a hallway on their own they need extra safety security you know with the older kids they would need a playground built for them because they need recess I would argue even up to eighth grade you need recess. I think that's ridiculous. We don't have recess for eighth graders. But that being aside, Tim said very clearly that these are little kids and if we push them to be middle schoolers before they are old enough, you increase the likelihood of anxiety and stress and poorer academic outcomes in my opinion. And that is an opinion that's shared by everybody I spoke to
075in the last week and I reached out to people across many um age groups and backgrounds. Um, so when we look at what was just presented, the the argument for eighth grade moving up into high school, I can see it. I can see it especially for kids who are excelling already. Um, they're going to fly like like Alan said. Um, I I do worry about the kids who are not ready for that. I think maybe the the idea that you can put them into more contact with those um career paths, that's something you can bump back. bring the contact with the career path into the middle school. Give the K and fourth and fifth graders an opportunity to engage with real meaningful work that has more meaning than school work because I think by fifth
076grade kids are generally kind of losing interest. And if you are pushing them into a more academic environment without offering them these more interesting opportunities and they can't get them until they're in eighth grade or high school, you're, you know, you're missing out on that with the little kids because they are fully able to do that. So anyway, those are my opinions. Dropping fifth grade down requires fewer changes to the certification of teachers. It requires no new playgrounds to be built. There's no need for new lunch schedules. The ages can be mixed on the buses without any concerns at all. Um, fifth graders can mentor first graders just as well as seventh graders can mentor fifth. And in my experience, probably better. Seventh graders are not that thoughtful. >> Sorry if I was a seventh
077grader once. You remember it? Um, so that's like those are equally split. You can have fifth graders mentoring first graders. You don't have to, it's not one or the other. They're both equal. Languages and advanced math can and I think really should be offered in K through five so you don't lose those kids who are getting disinterested in math by fifth grade. Why don't we have a language program in the elementary schools? We're missing out on that. Keep these kids in the district. Offer them things that they can't get until high school. I really mean that. And then you can argue that there would be fewer transitions by doing K through five just the same as there would be 5 to 7. It's the exact same. There's no merit one to the other. You're getting
078fewer transitions either way. Um continuity of care and tiered supports are just as possible in K through five as they would be doing a 5 through 7. You're still going to have those kids for a longer time. You're going to get to know them better. These are not arguments in favor. They're not convincing arguments in my mind to sway me to say that middle school should be 5 to 7. They're equal. They're the same. Um, and then just to finish up on my first round of thoughts here, um, we really do need a new survey. Last cruise data is completely irrelevant and I can't proceed without um, further opportunities for input. I recognize that the staff survey was last spring. That is very recent, but it might be worth doing a follow-up staff survey. You
079can't operate on information when people weren't focused on it. That's my that's my main. Um >> yeah, so you know that that's kind of just a lot of information for me to digest. I think me personally I need time to kind of sit with it. Um, I definitely think some more kind of meat behind the data or what was presented um would be helpful u for me to to kind of get a good picture um of this and I think also in terms of just presenting this so that the community can also kind of see this information. you know, I mean, one thing I expect is when people try to make an argument that they have they present me with kind of their sources and their um, you know, where they got their data from.
080So, you know, I kind of expect the same same thing. Um, so I think, you know, it's kind of a lot of kind of general information, but, you know, kind of to see the the real data behind it, um, would be very helpful for me. Um, you know, I'm not I I feel like for me, you know, I understand the recommendation for for moving 8th grade into the high school. I feel like equally important for me would be, and I'm not sure, you know, how helpful this would be. I'm kind of just thinking here on the spot, but, you know, why the fifth grade moving down would not work out as well. you know, I can definitely, you know, I hear all the suggestions, all the, you know, support behind it and and it sounds,
081you know, it sounds great to me. It sounds, you know, with with the vision, um, of kind of creating a high school of the future, um, you know, is is, you know, very appealing. And I think, you know, for me, just kind of I guess seeing more of kind of the, you know, not that not that we can do that within this time frame, but seeing maybe a little more information and and the details of, you know, what that high school of the future would look like. Um, seeing but also seeing and I feel like I'm kind of scattered here. That's kind of where my brain is right now. Um, you know, kind of seeing some of the reasoning for for not not moving fifth grade into the elementary school and keeping eighth grade. Um,
082you know, I I definitely agree with I think um what Katrina was saying with a new survey kind of I think you know there there was a lot going on last year and I think to kind of get a fresher perspective where people might be maybe a little more focused hopefully you know I know safety is a big issue right now for people. So you know hopefully we can still get um some focus on on this topic. um I would kind of be in support of that. But yeah, I think for now that's that's kind of all I have. >> First of all, I'd like to add as I was a member of building needs task force as well as Melissa representing a school committee. I'd like to thank the members that were on that
083task force which met for a good six, seven months and had intense discussions regarding all of these um proposals. um community members were Bobby Antinucci, Nancy Taylor, what actually um represented the town as well, but a good portion of the members were um staff members. Hillary Mish, Stacy Bedro, Alan Harris, Melissa Hamilton, uh Ryan Herd representing Police Department, and as well as Mallerie Lavell, um Lavel who is, um an educator as I understand it, Christina Woods, who is a teacher at Lawrence School, and Mary Kate Kruchi um another staff member. Uh I appreciated their input and the intense discussions that went along with meeting as a group. Um in talking about the eighth grade proposal, uh discussions revolved around the size of FHS and as pointed out tonight by Dr. Harris that it lends itself
084to H12. When I look at the surrounding communities, we are at a deficit in a lot of ways in comparison to the surrounding communities, athletics and the academic opportunities for kids. Um, as they approach high school age, um, they have the opportunity again to take more advanced classes. Um, I am convinced as well that our staff would work towards a transition that would be beneficial to our students. And beyond all that, we have an obligation to this town in regards to we have a building that is underutilized. And if we can come up with a solution in that in that regard, they will support us tenfold in my opinion in financial ways in the ways that the needs of our kids, the additional needs that they need now, um whether it be social, emotional, security,
085etc. Um so those are my thoughts. Um, well, I'm a I'm a teacher and I have worked at schools that were both overcrowded and underenrolled and neither is ideal. If you have an underenrolled high school, um, you know, extracurriculars are as important a component to education as academics. And if we think about the consequences, and I see it every day, um can't failed athletic teams, you don't have enough kids for clubs, there you won't have a marching band, um not enough kids for a theater program, and also there's the feeling of walking the halls of a ghost town. When you have a building that can fit 1,200 kids and you'd have 600 kids in there, that's you know that that's there's a there's an atmosphere that lends itself to being in that building that is
086not positive. An advantage for kids being in 8th grade, I would even argue 7 to 12, but the table is set for 8th grade, is that you know those kids from 8 to 12. and my colleague expressed uh support for the opportunities for high achievers, but I would say that the kids who need the most support benefit because teachers know those those students through their careers at at the high school. In addition, and my last comment is I've also worked at an elementary school and I can tell you that there's a big difference between first graders and third graders. Now, fifth graders are not the fifth graders of the past. This is, you know, yet of course they're still children. 12th graders are still children. But there it's fifth graders are different now. And I
087would argue that there's a a larger chasm between a first grader and a fifth grader than there is between a fifth grader and a seventh grader. So um so those are some of my preliminary thoughts based upon my um experience. However, I do want to support um what Mike said about his concerns about retention. I think this is a a workable plan, but I would like to see a plan that addresses um retention for the high school because without that, you know, we can we can do this, but if we don't also have some other enticements for kids to stay, um knowing the birth rate, you know, knowing we have to be realistic, but um we need we need those should go in tandem. >> Okay. Thank you, Glenda. List. >> Thanks. So, I'm going
088to um also thank being on the building task force. I like uh Mrs. Augusta was on there to be asked and was proud to do the strong work that we did and I am grateful for everybody that was on that. And a lot of us uh sat there not only as school committee or uh staff or we were staying with the district but a lot of us were also parents as well. And even though um when all of this happens my children will have been graduated this still very much means a whole lot to me for a variety of reasons. Um so I am definitely in support of having less transistors. I've been saying this since I sat at this table many years ago that you know I think that Mr. Bushy said it well
089when or maybe Tim Mr. Adams and Mr. where she said it together with, you know, you just kind of start to get to know kids at the fifth and sixth grade level and then it's on to seventh grade and it's on to the high school. Whereas the elementary school, it was a big hug and oftentimes, you know, speaking as a mother right now, my children were at their elementary school for six and a half years. So I, you know, when you're in the elementary school and everybody knows you and it's a hug and it's this main things and everybody, you know, oftentimes this is where families are sending their children for the first time, not with another family member, a grandparent or, you know, somebody that they've known and trusted. So you know, that that's
090not lost on us either. I like the fact that we're having less transitions. Um I think it's really important at such a challenging age group where it's important for us to get to know them and to speak um to my colleague who just mentioned you know argument is 7 to 12 because you really get to know the students I think that that's really important because this is a really challenging time school start times at uh found high school conversation started many years ago I was also happy to be on that subcommittee for task task force course I think we called it this has been a fluid conversation and I love that it's organically changing with this navigating the future it was never meant to be stale or stagnant it was never meant to oh we
091checked that box moving on that was never part of the conversation it was you know it will come up again and organically with this it has come up again as have other conversations that will organically come uh to the table as uh Harris suggested with uh having new what was it help me the new challenges you solve one problem new set of challenges. >> So but organically you you get different things that come to the table that you know maybe are important right this minute but you just kind of have to wait your turn and it will happen. Um public schools throughout the country are attempting to retain enrollment by a variety of things. We are not new to this. In fact, if anything, we were a little late to this conversation. I'm grateful that
092we are having this extraordinarily difficult conversation. I recognize that it is extraordinarily emotional. Uh, and I I'm grateful for everybody that continues to show up and send us emails. Um, enrollment and birth rate is down throughout, you could even argue not just this country, but other countries. So, how are we keeping our, you know, students in our buildings? We are doing things like our pathways programs uh as well as, you know, having step up night for band and, uh, some eighth grade athletics, being able to join the high school teams. We're not new to this, so I would like I would argue to continue to foster that. you know, when I'm old, but when I was at Both High School, the band was really booming and it was really exciting. And now it I look
093and I'm grateful for the kids that are there, but when I think about what we could be so much more, that's one example of something that I think is extraordinarily important. And I think that my colleague also mentioned having other opportunities, not just with athletics and band, but also classes. We have to also be financially responsible. You know, we're tasked when we sit at this table by the town who elected us to make important decisions. And you know, heavy is the head that wears the crown. Some of those decisions are really challenging and really challenging and this is one of them. I don't know how else to say it. You know, this is not an uncomfortable conversation, but that's sometimes what you have to do when you sit in these roles. So I am grateful
094for the people that I work with and I am grateful for the strong work that we have done. In closing um we worked really hard on the building needs task force and uh I would argue that we did our did our due diligence for that. Uh I wouldn't be opposed to having a survey that uh Miss Nevin suggested. I don't I would think I think it she suggested that the oxygen being sucked out of it last fall is an accurate description. Um >> I would I would be a-ok okay if that if we did have another survey perhaps we could encourage u more than 220 of people to respond to that. So again uh thank you for this conversation. Thank you for this data. Thank you for continuing to move along with our work that
095we're doing. >> Thank you, Liz. >> Okay, I have a couple questions. Um, Sonia, I think it was your side. Has curriculum on pedagog 7, 8 to 12. And it just says um that the national and state standards organized I think three. Does that just mean like six and eight? Yeah. Like so group. Yeah. >> There just like that. >> Okay. I just wanted to make sure there was not some term that I didn't know that. >> Um okay. Um then on advantages of eighth grade and high school there was mention about I think Dr. Harris I think you said like transcripting begins. So, I'm wondering if because right now if kids are in eighth grade and they're taking algebra, is it algebra like that? Okay. >> Yes. >> They are they're eligible to take
096those advanced classes once they get to nth grade, but the one they took in eighth grade doesn't count, right? Right. It doesn't count on their it shows on their transcript but it doesn't but it doesn't the four years of math at the high school. It still take >> So this is sort of what I'm wondering if you have eighth grade in the high school does that change or do the same rules of how does that work? >> So what what it gives you is the the importance of the time to do this. It gives you the opportunity for those considerations right about that that whatever we're going to do in terms of scrant transcripting graduation requirements those pieces guided by DESIE approved by the school committee so it would give us the opportunity for those
097considerations typically acceleration you're not a student doesn't accelerate in order they're going to accelerate in the algebra with the idea they're going to take more math not less math right >> right but with that it gives us the opportunity to think about what can happen with that in 8 to 9. I was mentioning it in terms of the clock does start. What is different for a student between 8th grade and 9th grade? What grade you get in nth grade goes on a transcript that wherever you would apply to go to college or whatever else is going to be there, not an eight. Right? If you have eight and nine together, you're able to think about and support students as they move from eighth to 9th and their wherever their academics may be. Some accelerating as
098noted, some may be have a gap and you may be able to provide some supports there so they enter ninth grade transcripting more readily. >> So some of it is yet to be >> it's not like sense. >> It gives you the opportunity to be able to plan that out. Okay, >> is what I'm saying >> and I think that's going to be a similar answer to my next question, which is that if you have if you have a kid I'm sorry if I'm like waiting, but I'm trying to like >> my um if you have a kid who takes algebra in 8th grade and then you know is progressing, they will have the opportunities to be I'm assuming that they would have opportunities to take classes with people who are older than them because
099they would it. Okay. And so those are pieces that would also have to get worked out, right? They're not Oh, >> yes. Sorry. >> I just want to make sure that >> think about it as a spectrum. >> Okay. >> Yep. >> Um question. >> Can I ask that question only? >> Yeah. Yeah. I'm sorry to interrupt. Um, when you speaking of colleges, do the colleges that are looking at students that the eighth grade is at the high school, do they look at the eighth grade transcript or is it still traditionally nationwide or I suppose even internationally wide, do they look at um 9 to 12 or nine >> irregardless of if there's a Thanks very much. Okay. Thank you. That's I think actually where I was trying to get at that piece of information.
100Okay. Um and then um I'm guessing this is going to be a similar answer that with planning you would figure out if there would be like an 8 N structure that is different than the rest of the high school or if the eighth grade alone would be structured and some like modified team situation. Like those are the pieces that would be figured out. with the time and advanced planning that we >> so other other places I've been these types of things that have been considered that that I found were helpful as as a decision was made that the school committee said and these are the things that need to be addressed for this to be successful. I mean everything raised here is really important the positives and the challenges right. So saying if we do
101this a concern is how do you make sure eighth graders are safe in how they are in high school? How do you like and how do we think about transcripting? Right? And I think that was I try to notice the power of this is school committee says this is the configuration gives the chart superintendent and us as principles answer these for us and and there's checks along the way that we're reporting in that give you some asurances those concerns you have right that we're our staff and us are working on them right all these are great questions but they would be it isn't approved as it just automatically it's approved and here's what we need you to make sure you're addressing when you build this Um, okay. So, with that in mind, I think, um,
102I just want to piggyback on a couple things that other people said. Uh, I'm 100% with Katrina about the recess and I um I think she had it in me as well if that's um in, you know, hospital. Um, I really appreciate that the comment from Linda about um under enrolled and and over enrolled uh buildings. I hadn't really uh you just articulated in a way that made it a little bit what it could feel like in in an under building that I hadn't really thought about before. um for me and I think belong Chris's comment um it I appreciate the summary of a lot of the background research but I am you know like I I do want to be in the weeds and so I would love um to to see the some
103of the literature that you guys found. Um it's I'm sure the summary that you gave is spot on. I don't doubt that. But I I just like some of the additional background information. I think it's hopefully um so I would love that. Um and then I think um you know one of the I am absolutely confident that that it is going to work whatever we as a committee decide. I I I really believe that not only are our staff like incredibly skilled at what we do, but also we are not being forced to make a decision and make all kinds of change with no notice. I think it's really important when to to acknowledge how long we have to get this planned out and done well. Um, the other thing I think that is I
104don't know if it's confusing to me, but I'm thinking about it just I think differently than than others. And so I'm just going to mention it that the conversation seems to be about fifth graders being elementary, but right now fifth graders are already with sixth graders. And so it's really about the addition of seventh grade to that equation. Um, and I I think it's in my brain it's just framed differently thinking about it as adding seven rather than saying or fifth graders are elementary students because right now yes technically mors pond is elementary but they've already made a transition by then and they're already moving to a time where they do have a little bit of additional transition in the day and yes their teacher might be with them but it is diff it's different
105than this setting. length of a second grade uh classroom has um so I just I think that's worth mentioning um no I don't think so thank you fields for the recommendation and Laura thank you for your recommendation and to the team for all of uh the cons I think I had mentioned um in our previous meeting that I really just wanted all of the material consolidated into one place um so that we can think about it deeply and I feel like that's what we got so I appreciate Mar, >> thank you. Um, I I have done research because it's been a long time since I was an Olympic school teacher that I thought was important because and if people want the references I can give you. I also want to say that actually I just
106spent some time with family and I have family members who are in elementary school and I have several family members who are teachers in high school and elementary school. Um I also want to say that I think the teachers and administrators whatever we decide will make it work and that is not my concern. My concern is what is best for our students and that's how we focus. I am delighted with the notion of less transitions and what you just said was interesting because I had never thought of that and I'm going to say a lot of reasons why fifth graders should go back to elementary school but in some ways we already have two middle school students. you know the fifth graders already. So um there is no definitive answer about what where fifth graders
107should be. It's going to depend on various factors and individual student needs. It depends on the school specific approach the students maturity level and the support systems available. And I'm going to give you the arguments for fifth for fifth grade remaining in elementary school because that's the research I have done not you know and I have some concerns about fifths you know being but I'll mention that later the transition from fifth graders is clearly challenging it's caused for increased academic demands social adjustments um a familiar environment with knowing teachers reduce anxiety and and promote a sense of belonging opportunity for leadership roles mentoring younger students can boost their confidence and self-esteem and some research suggests higher achievement in reading and math. Studies show there are fewer behavior problems when the fifth graders older than fifth
108grade. Human transitions are certainly better academically, socially, and emotionally their outcomes. It often prepares students for transition, allows students to remain in a less pressure setting for longer. It reduces negative social influences that are sometimes associated with middle schools. Not all of some have um re but the research is inconclusive. Um the best choice depends on an individual student's needs and what um and what are the priorities that people have. Now the arguments from middle school it provides increased independence and responsibility as they navigate more complex schedules with multiple teachers range of subjects and extracurricular activities. It allows students to explore their interest and talents. is exposure to at old 50s which is beneficial for providing mobiles and preparing them for high school and they may have greater games in reading scores in seventh and
109eighth grade. The other thing I'd like to say and I'm going to mention this is we're we're talking a lot and I think it's really important that we we sort of differentiate between middle schools and junior high schools. We are talking about a middle school and middle school focuses on holistic approaches both academically and socially emotional development. It incorporates interdisciplinary teaching and it's um subjects are in integrated classrooms by grade uh with teachers with teachers rotating um depends it it it is easy for the transitions between elementary school and high school have a middle school and it supports programs for social emotional growth. A junior high school is really for academic preparation which is not what we're talking about here from everything I've heard. Classes specialized typically 7 through nine less focused on social emotional
110development and the emphasis is on preparing them academically. Um I I've spent a lot of time in in the schools and I've gone to a lot of events and I can tell you that there are certainly some fifth graders and this is my concern and I've mentioned it to Dr. you know are they um ready in terms of socially transition to maturation is very difficult socially emotionally academically and that's my concern and I know that there are a lot of fifth graders that I have seen that are certainly prepared to go into you know middle school and so I have two a few questions One of my questions would be for those that are ready, great. But I'd like to have more specifics and preax. What are the supports for fifth graders that really sort
111of aren't there that are that are not in terms of maturation ready to move in that direction? And it's the same thing for eighth graders that there are many eighth graders that I agree, you know, are ready to go to, you know, and can excel going into high school. But what I want to know more specifically what the supports that he's going to provide for them as you heal these particular students are um and um the other question I have and I've heard so often in this room is how are fifth grades different now? You know, we were told fifth grade is a different typ and I really asked that as a question because I don't know, as I said, I've seen some fifth graders, they're ready to fly and other fifth graders, they look
112like kids. And so I want to know when I hear people say that, how fifth graders get stick with that? And those are my questions. And I hope I've said it with the fair as I did. If anybody wants to know the research, but I want to tell you, no matter what we decide, I do believe that the administration and our outstanding teachers will make it work. I want to know what's best for our students and I think I've heard a lot and I've seen a lot that they and I've been in the classroom. social emotional support that that our teachers provide not not dissident administrators that our teachers provide. I want to tell you something. I couldn't do that now. I remember teaching third grade many many years ago and what I've seen our
113teachers do today. They have to be committed because they are outstanding. >> Here's the here's the tension that lies and they envy and appreciate your willingness to serve and be in the roles that you are. But the the tension that is there is we talk about we have this time, right? We have this time to if a decision is made, right? The longer it takes for a decision, then the shorter the time frame is to get a lot of this stuff done. So you said the piece about you said two things that that were important. And I appreciate the faith you have in the stack to deliver right what is the site >> administration too. >> No I no I I think I think we're all I believe deeply in this district we're all in
114it together. >> Yeah. >> Uh that um so your piece about eighth grade and wanting to know what our support's going to be there. Right. >> If if you're needing us to answer that before you make the decision that's difficult. If you can believe that we can deliver that then make the decision and say gosh darn it make sure that's there. That's the tension >> that I just want to put out there. Right. And the way I see things are different in you know having u um you know a daughter in the elementary and a wife at the at the at the middle and working at the high school. The pressure and the intensity for parents is different than it's ever been. the what parents are hearing from their world and community about they have
115to make the right choice and get to the right school and do the right this and the right that and and the worry that that but but that's real and and I think that's where fifth grade is different that's where eighth grade is different that you sit with a classroom of students who are some feeling pressure that they should be doing more academic and less recess and some feeling pressure that there should be more recess and more academic and I think that that is real right that we have an obligation wherever we land in this configuration that we're given a charge to say answer these questions and make sure this is it in whatever you deliver and I agree with you we will have but I think where it gets difficult is as we're doing
116our work and thinking about the future needing to have a lot of answers before the decision is made when we can't get to those answers until we know a decision is made and we can work with our staff and say here's where we're going. >> You know, I also want to say and I and I said it clearly, I want to repeat it, >> you know, because I know there's tremendous amount of pressure. Is my kid in the right school? Is my kid doing the right thing? Whatever. When I went to my home um doctor's visit my the nurse practitioner has two has two kids school her husband makes those kids do asking reading during summer and she's like they're too much kids there is no perfect answer I started saying that all the data
117doesn't say there's a correct way this is what you have to do it really depends on the location it really depends on the resources It really depends on the environment and it also depends on the needs of individual students and and >> and I I hope I can alleviate and fairly say there is no right answer. There is no perfect path >> as Henry noted you know in in the studies and know can share those with you at the end of the day it's less about where they are and more about quality of instruction the caring relationship with the teacher and the supports that are there and access to opportunity where whatever we do we'll do that >> okay so I have to sum up okay I'm some offer than the speakers, I hope. Anyway,
118um that's sounding negative. I didn't I didn't hear that. Um one thing I felt was a little bit weak in all the stuff was um things that people alluded to was knowing your own kids and things about your own kids. So, I think um we need some maybe we've had parent input, but I don't see it here enough. So, if we could reach out, we um get more information from parents who uh live with the current fifth graders of today. I mean, as old as I am, I can't imagine um what it's like to have a uh how old are they? 10 when they're in fifth grade. To have a 10year-old kid. Um and we really need we really need a lot of that perspective. The other thing, too, is there's not one kid's voice
119on here either. Um, I was hoping that we I thought when we talked about this a while ago, we were going to have some kids um comments too. Um, I like the great I what Katrina said about setting up a room with tables instead of it seems like if you put them in the smaller groups and they converse, it's less confusing. Um, and then compile it all together. Maybe you could re I think we had we had presentations like that when we were doing the grades, remember? those those seem to work. So, um I I just think we have more from those two groups that will be good. Um and one thing though that I'm really excited that people talked about was and Doc Doc Harris mentioned it too was looking at start times. I
120think that's another big thing um that would help our high schools, all the students. So, we could put some energy into the start time part of all that. And um I guess to when we consider national studies, we so need to think about what how is Felmouth fitting into the world cuz you know we we have our own town and um the dynamics out over there. We have the woods whole thing. We have just different things that we need to look at our dynamics too and okay so that was my summary that I sum up you said okay um does anybody want to go for a second uh set of things okay usually we start the other direction for second rounds anybody else have a >> she wants to start maybe >> okay I didn't
121want to jump the line um when we had our meeting on August 19th our last special We discussed a lot of things. I wrote down copious notes as I always do. >> Um Terry Terry um sorry chairman chairwoman Maduros I'm just going to try to make that form um had summarized our conversation saying people talked about having forums staff input having the principles come and speak to us which we've had um and student input and having more surveys. Those were the five things that you had listed out partway through that meeting. At the end of that meeting, we had a show of hands that was not a vote, but we all wanted to have a presentation from Dr. Dur um and your recommendation. You've given us your recommendation and your presentation. However, during this meeting,
122we also had um an agreement I thought that was largely um spoken to by I think the majority when I read through my notes of wanting to have an evenhanded presentation. In other words, to see the pros and cons of both sides. Tonight's presentation only presented whether your recommendation was to have eight go up. We did ask for a recommendation. We also asked though for the presentation to show us the pros and cons of both options and we didn't get that. And so I think that's missing. Um and that was something we had discussed and I think agreed on. So I I think we still need that. Um I don't think we're ready to take any action on this at our next meeting. I know that's standard to act after a presentation, but I don't
123think we're anywhere near that. I know we need to be done and ready by December and I don't know the date. Do you have a date for that or is MSBA not given any date or our deadline for when we have to have the grade configuration? >> December 12th. Okay. So, we have some time. Um I what we spoke of at our last meeting and what we've spoken to tonight. I think to me it sounds like people are still talking about fifth grade um and the recommendation has been made but I think there's time now for additional surveys and um further conversation and perhaps a follow-up presentation to show us the pros and cons of fifth grade moving down. Um, a couple other things I So, in regards to children being in fifth grade and
124them being more like seventh graders, um, that are my colleague, um, said, um, I I don't feel like we want to encourage fifth graders to be more like older kids. There are too many pressures already. Um, so let me just organize my thoughts. Um, another thing I noted was that it sounds a little bit like um, how do I say this gently? Like we're we're wanting to use eighth graders moving into the high school as a band-aid >> to fix the retention issue. But the retention issue in as far as the data shows, it begins in seventh grade. People start leaving seventh grade. >> So in order to fix that, you have to go back further and make school more interesting in fifth and sixth grade. and offer these things. Like I said in my
125previous comment, it's it's a band-aid. And when I look at a district like Wearham, they hemorrhage from seventh grade to 12th grade. That's what the data shows. It's just an outpouring of students. I'm not saying that would happen here, but putting eth grade into the high school doesn't necessarily guarantee that you're going to fix the retention issue because it's beginning earlier. Um to um Miss Welch's comment about it's a conversation about fifth graders being in elementary but they're already middle schoolers. It's a bookending conversation. So it's about fifth graders being elementary or eighth graders being high school. It's both. And you know the only grades that are not affected are sixth and seventh grade. So, they are equally valid and there's not um I'm not sure exactly what that comment um meant really, but it
126was um it's not about adding SAT to the fifth and sixth graders. It's about moving the fifth graders down or moving the eighth graders up. Um, so and a lot of people have also mentioned they want more data and I just want to reiterate that that I think we need a follow-up meeting to talk about this more and and the Buddha and we need more time. In other words, and just as a last thing, we have until December. We have until December 12th. And I would say that we can wait until November 18th if we wanted to to make this decision which gives us October and part of November to have these public meetings to have this data collected to have more presentations to give an evenhanded chance at both options since we haven't had
127that yet. Um and I mean my tally of people who have expressed a preference there's enough of us who want one and enough of us who want the other that I think it merits um more time. >> I'd like to just for a second I didn't want uh it to be misconstrued when they're voting on the 12th. They did indicate that it would be strong to have a school committee um have a decision. The 12th is their vote in December. They make decisions at the end of November. I I just didn't want to be construed that you have up until December 12th, right? Um I'm also not going to say that you have to have one when you do. They just said that when it goes before a board, when they can say that school
128committee has made a decision, it strengthens the application. >> Would you say that November 18th would be a safe >> window? They said in November. I don't I don't know. I don't have the details. I don't think we're privy to that or I just wanted to recreor. I didn't know where you were going with that December vote. So, I just wanted to correct what >> clarify again though. So December 12th is when they inform us. >> December 12th is when the the board makes a vote. >> Okay. And after that they would then ask for consideration. >> No, >> we would have to know after that what they they said that if if the school committee votes it makes your application stronger going into a vote >> of their report. >> All right. But we
129do have October at least to have this process. Yeah. >> The first I just I just want to make sure like they would walk away. I just wanted to clarify. >> Yeah. >> I think Glenda and my and my I think Glendon had >> Oh, I just wanted to say that I appreciated my colleague um Welch's u perspective on what we are tasked with. It's it's adding the seventh grade. Um, so there are fifth graders are already paired with sixth graders. So that that's that's what we're tasked with. So then we're going to move fifth graders down. Um, and I'm not arguing that fifth graders are not children. Of course they're children as are ninth graders, 10th graders, 11th graders, but you know, I've seen myself third graders now are starting menstrual cycles. So fifth
130graders, you know that they're well on their way and with technology and it's it's so it's it is a different it is a different world and I think we have to respect kids maturity and the challenges that they need academically and I think that this p this proposed configuration really um respects fifth graders where they are. I have two things. First, did you all get together and start deciding to call it a colleague? I like it. It's new this time. >> It's new, >> Right. >> Um, my second question that just came up with Dr. Do we and I just do we need to have the great configuration by December or will and you said make it stronger but is it necessity or because I feel like it's a a timeline that's being imposed by
131that company from the the group from the state I think their name MSBC I think that's close um >> thank you very much >> Lisb >> so and I guess my only question is that are we required to happen other than strengthening the vote. We're not required to, right? >> Not required. >> Except that they just indicated that it would strengthen the tournament. >> Thank you. >> There any other questions about campus? Um, you know, just kind of going back to Principal Harris's comment where, you know, not that, you know, we want to do our due diligence and take our time, but at the same point, there is a sense of, I don't know if I want to say urgency, but the longer we do wait kind of the less time that we're giving, you
132know, our our teachers and staff to to properly prepare whatever the decision is. So I think it is in our best interest to um kind of move move with purpose um at this stage just just so we can we can start start making plans. I mean I feel like either either way we decide you know there are personal preferences on each you know argument but you know it really did sound like you know whichever you can decide their pros and cons to each direction. And so really it's about spending the time once you make a decision to to address the disadvantages of whatever um whatever decision you make. So >> Oh everybody else? >> Yeah. Yeah. Um, if you didn't hear what I said, Katrina, I spent a very long time talking about the advantages
133of fifth graders in elementary school. So, there were no pros and cons. I mean, >> the fifth grade staying there is much stronger than sixth graders. And I didn't do it because I was challenged to. I'm doing because this is what the data says. >> And and um and I do want to say that there's no correct answer. If we're looking for the right answer, this doesn't exist. Um, and I'm so glad you said that, Chris, because I do think that um as Alan said, the longer the longer we wait to give them an answer, the less the less opportunities they have to figure out the issues. And although I have concerns either way, I think it's really important. I also want to say that in fact, the next meeting, we're not you're not going
134to make them go to the you're not going to go to the next meeting, are you Terry? At at what next? Next the next full meeting >> regular meeting. Yeah. No. >> Okay. Cuz I'm not going to be here. So I just wanted to say what you need to do is draw the rules. >> Okay. Okay. You haven't done your parliamentary job here. You've been muddling along on our own without it. Let's see. Oh man. I tried to get in and I couldn't get in. So and I I listened to everything that was on empty news. somebody who teach >> I'm only kidding you. Um, one thing I just want a kind of an answer about. In my opinion, the five through seven stuff is called the edge and I just want to have a
135statement. If we do decide in eighth grade and go on, which sounds good, does that lock us in any way for the rest of the grades? I just think we need to know that. Yes or no? >> Can we say okay we decided >> if we decide the eighth grade because it's good if we can get started on it. Um does that lock us in for any any of the other grade configurations? I just I just really need to know that. I mean I I'm tempt I want to vote for the eighth grade also want I'm real fuzzy on the fifth grade person so I know other people must be. So I just want to know does that lock in any all the other grade configurations that have been none of the room. So two
136two things I mean our recommendation is that you have three grades together and for all the reasons tonight that we talked about um you know it's it's more supportive having you know whichever whichever grade you decide right if you have three grade configurations students go in they have another year before they start preparing to go out and it is a three band is what is the most um school select that that more often than than anything is that you have through dance. If you think about it, if you have K to five in one and you had 8 to 12 at the top, then you would have two grades in the middle. You would be spending six years. In one school, you'd be going to a school that has two years. Then you would be
137spending five years. They just don't have a time to really settle in into a school that's two years. And that is some of the the concerns that have been shared um among the school committee members. Certainly um we had during the presentation is only a two school is not recommended. On top of that, when we uh submitted our statement of interest to the MSBA, we chose then is going to be a three uh grade uh school and that I do think you know was already voted on and decided that that's the way it's going to be. What we didn't decide is what three grades. So I just I just want to throw that out. Um and that's what this conversation is about. What three grades should those be? >> Susan. >> Oh. Oh yes. So
138>> and by selecting three grades for the Lawrence school, that building can accommodate three grades and that would enable this town to get a certain percentage reimbursement on the cost of re renovating that building. Otherwise, we're on our own. >> I I do think that the town would appreciate if you know if we're going to renovate that that we have more students in that that building, >> right? >> Yeah. >> I have a followup question to what my colleague Mrs. Augusta just said. I mean, freshman um >> I wanted to know a rough idea as a follow question. I'd ask the rough idea of what this would cost with the MSBA like what the overall cost and what percentage they do and then to break it down into the tax increase for the average household
139because I do think before we go into a town meeting and then start doing all this research and planning and stuff if it is unattainable. One of the things was retention and if we increase taxes so much to fix that school that people are forced to leave town because they can't afford it that has to take into consideration. So I know we don't have the actual numbers but just an idea like if it was you know 20 million if it was 40 million if it was 80 and then what that would cost each person. Um I'm just concerned with all this work that we're doing. the senior center was 9 million and that was a pretty hefty hall to get that over um of of the committees working on that. So that would be my
140concern. We doing all this work then when it comes down to an override it doesn't happen then we have to score. >> So I think I really want us to focus on two things. Are we not going to make these changes if we don't get the renovation? I mean, there's a lot of good reasons to make these decisions, renovation or not. >> Yeah. >> So, I mean, that's that's one, right? Yes, we're looking at the renovation. Um, and yes, that's a couple steps down the road, a couple years before we would find out. one, we need we need to have an exact um cost. We got to we got to get to the next level if we're accepted into MSBA to know um what the cost is going to be and then for the uh
141the MSBA to tell us what the percentage are. Right now, between 36 and 37% is what they're they're what they figure that they would give on the cost of this. So, we don't know the overall number. Then yes, we've when we've met with the town, they are fully prepared once we get to that stuff. They are going to do all that that numbers for us that you're just asking, right? What is it going to cost the taxpayer? >> Um and and they're the talent is the one that's going to do that, but they're not going to do that until we know what the number is. I will tell you that there was strong support from the town manager and the um CFO at the meeting of the MSBA um that they felt confident um in
142in this process and confident that it would be supported. So um I think I mean that's that's important to say that that they are behind moving forward with this. But I still want to come back to isn't this a discussion we should be having whether we get the renovation or don't get the registration because we know that barns can handle three grades. >> So to that point if I could chairwoman Madurus um I am concerned in my by fiduciary responsibility this committee with the amount of tax dollars we are putting forward before we know what's happening. So for instance, the Morse Pond town meeting exploratory committee, that's a lot of money and we as a committee have not voted to release Morris Pond. So again, this is to me it's a lot of cart before
143the horse and it gets to a point that we're so bound to do something that we have to. It's becomes Pennywise. So, I don't know if this grade configuration makes sense. I believe that we were doing this for the MSBA MSBA grant only. Now, if we don't get that grant, I don't know if that's the best decision, and I think that we're lumping way too much stuff together, spending money doing surveys before we actually know what we want to do. So like our enrollment is declining. It is not fiscally responsible for us to continue to maintain seven buildings when we can move to six buildings. And so that's why I say whether we get the renovation or not, I think we have a responsibility to consider that we have to have three grades into Lawrence
144and that we are going to uh release the the uh Morse pond back to the town. It's not dependent on MSBA. We should renovate. We need to renovate. >> Yes. >> Um more uh the law school for all the reasons we talked about before. And yes, I know you you're like you want to say something. U but but we we have a there's lots of different moving parts and one of them is it's just we can't maintain seven buildings when we don't have enough students to fit into seven buildings. >> Yeah. But my concern is that we've never voted to release Morris ponds and there are also other costs saving things where the high school has space available. It would be much easier to move this building and these personnel into the high school. >>
145Yeah. >> Than it would be to configure these grades and change this stuff. So I'm not and I'm not saying that it's not a good idea. I'd like some more more data, more information. My concern is that the town meeting article addressing the Morris Palm School to see what the town's going to do with it when we as a committee have not voted to give it up is disheartening. And what's going to end up happening is that we get so deep that we have to do something. We don't have to do anything. We have the luxury to actually take our time and say what's best for the town. And that's my concern with all this rush rush rush rush rush. We need more information. We need to not put band-aids on it. We need to
146figure this out. That's all I'll say. >> So, you say >> I know before. >> I just wanted to say that that bronze building as it is today, you can't go another 20 years at that building. that that the the plant structure within that building, the steam pipes, the electrical systems solic grades in there without graduating, then you run continentality risk in that building that something goes that uh and students can't go suddenly to that building and now you you're pushing grades out on an emergency basis. it it you know so it it it's it's not a question of is it nice to renovate the law you really have to renovate the Lawrence in order to keep it as a school and I respond I disagree >> I know but I lie I disagree because
147we've never gotten I believe my colleague M Evans had asked a year ago to get a proposal for a new building and I know that doesn't include the MSBA money but again we don't have those numbers side by side and we can see what we're doing. I feel again that the whole purpose of a lot of this is to save the Lawrence school and I will be honest at some point in time things aren't worth saving and we need those numbers to figure out if it does make sense. Um and now I'll be quiet against Charlie for a while. Okay, Margaret. >> Yeah, I've gone down this road because I believe that the um equity audit I argue that we should be giving up for now >> because that's being fiscally responsible. Now, I've gone
148down and I talked to Paul and I've talked to you know this building would cost a tremendous amount and the town doesn't want it. Am I right? Yeah. You know, because I said at the end of it all, we should give this building away. And I've had one conversation with Paul. I talked to Dr. Dor about this. The town doesn't want this building because it would cost too much, okay, to try to renovate this building. Mars Pawn seems to be the easiest building and if we're talking about physical responsibility, and I don't have those figures in my head because I'm an old lady. I did know how much it costs just to keep that building open every single year. We're not talking about salaries for teachers, support staff, anything like that. And it's costing the
149town a lot of money. So, we're talking about giving that up. And the town has made a decision that they would like that building if we want to give it up. We don't have to. There's no one making us do that. But that is a building that seems to be reasonable that the town could be interested in and it seems to be reasonable that the town would like to follow up on it. I don't think you made them did you make them uh follow up on that and and so you know when they listen to all the meetings they decided that they pursue that and see if it's important to if it's valuable to them if it's reasonably physically responsible. >> Yeah. It's just a best interest study that they want want to look at
150what the possibilities are to use that that building. And as far as this one, I have said it many times. We are ready to move out and move into any one number of schools that we could move into. Um, but it is a historic building and the town has to figure out what to do with this building for us to move out. I think all of us would love to be in a school. We've talked about it many times. We would love to be in a school with kids, >> but you can't let this building set empty. And I have asked many times, what can the town do with this building? It's beautiful building, but it needs a lot of work, whatever you do with it. And so, you know, so this building, that's why
151it was never part of the conversation. Like, we're ready. We're ready to move when they when they need it or want it to do whatever they decide. But this isn't the building to focus on as long as and this isn't the building that's costing a lot to maintain every year as it is right about 50,000 and it's about 350,000 for more fun. >> So I'm just you know I'm just just saying that like we can't we we have to I I disagree that we can't you can't keep waiting and and just not do anything. It's just not fiscally responsible. And Morris Pond will not hold three braves. I just want to throw that out. We talked about that before. Can I Paul gave me um a good discussion about why this because I I have
152gone through this building should give up and Paul you have good conversation for the vote. I have concerns about giving up. I I mean the concern story just mentioned that it's how do you convert a 1920s building into something that's uh you know useful for the town for example you know it's not ADA friendly building one um you know if it was town officers you'd have difficulty with town members coming from one floor to the other it's an article building. If you reconfigure this building, you're going to have to redo all the piping, walls, the electrical, it this is this building is much worse than the laws and Lawrence has its challenges. >> So, how much would it cost to redeem this building? Well, I I mean we're I don't >> profession I but I'm
153not gonna I'm not gonna I can't we really have to be careful about throwing figures around. It's one of the one of the problems and I can understand Mike's point but you know so much depends on the design of a Lawrence renovation and the MSBA process is a really disciplined process. It takes 8 years to go through the MSBA process and and it's done that way so that towns don't end up by having uh overspend on a building. They want you to be really disciplined over that period of time. And in that time, the first couple years you're doing the design process. You're the first $2 million you're spending is on the initial design. uh and and so that you can come to an estimate because any number that we give you today is has
154no factual basis on it. >> You know, we did do a a building assessment. Um the B and associates did the building assessment, but you know, it said it take $100 million to bring the building to code, but that doesn't move a wall inside the building. And these classrooms are outdated. Uh, so I, you know, we can't I I it would be so improper for me to even go down that road to try to get a a real assessment. We had to put a placeholder on the capital plan for, you know, for the purpose of trying to have something, but it's it's it's nothing that you, you know, anybody can take to the bank. It's too early in the process. That's what the first $2 million. And I should every time a pandemic comes up
155from the capital plant, I keep yelling it out. That is not a real number, you know. >> Did you want to say no? >> Any other um I have I have a motion actually. >> No, not yet. >> We don't know that we can take motions. It's related to the special meetings that we are planning that we are in right now. And I was folded our last regular meeting, but I did not bring up a motion relating to special meetings during a regular meeting. So, here I am in a special meeting bringing up a motion relating to our future special meeting. >> Okay. It's hard to argue with that because the windfall motions. So, >> um, >> parliamentarian need some help. Can we make a motion during a discussion? Um, >> it's also just for
156reference, it's just about scheduling. It's not about content. We can't we have not historically voted on a motion before we heard the motion at a previous meeting. >> That has been the process we've always done, >> you know, like we hear information, you know, and then at the next meeting we can go at the first brief. >> Yeah. So we do the first brief brief. We always do a first read. Can you make um a request for further information or something to happen? >> No, I have to make a motion because the motion is that I would like us to have a discussion about the unfoldment of our schedule for this timeline, not for the grade configuration. We know we need to have that before the beginning of November. That's clear. It's not to do
157with that. It's to do with the other parts of navigating the future, which by the way are not on our agenda, but we've just discussed them at great length. >> Okay. >> So, I I feel like it's within the limits of the meeting, especially given that we've already broken down everybody's um and I don't mean to be contentious and obnoxious, but I want us to have a chance to say if you stop, I would say your motion based on what Margaret suggested because that's what you suggested, right? We would vote on it the next meeting. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> The next which meeting? Regular meeting. >> Next school meeting. Yeah. Yeah. >> Regular meeting. Okay. >> Right. So the motion be that we would schedule a special meeting specifically so that we can discuss and
158set our timeline for all of our future meetings relating to the other aspects of navigating the future not great configuration. This would be a followup to our August 19th special meeting where we discussed the process for making these decisions. And now the next step is us for us as a committee to discuss and set our own timeline for when conversations will take place. Does that make sense to >> every before the next meeting? So, okay. >> Where are you going to beat it over? >> What your motion is because it'll appear in the next meeting. Right, Mart. >> Yes. But since I will not be at the ne next meeting because for a year I have planned a vacation and I'm going away and having a good time. Um, so I just would like to
159tell you if you have a motion and you vote on it and since there would be eight people, if the motion is four and four, which I hope it would not be, but if it is, immediately after the vote, someone could say I wish to change my vote. If any business transpires after the vote, you cannot then change your vote. Okay? So suppose people vote, you know, four and four and all of a sudden someone says, "Wait a minute. I might want to change my vote." They have to do it immediately. You cannot do anything else. Otherwise, you can't change your vote. >> I I'd have to look that up again because I thought it was if you you can't bring it up in the next meeting, but I thought you could bring it up
160during the meeting where it would happened if if you're on the losing side. Is that what I'm referencing? >> We can research that offline. This is how we got in trouble. >> Okay. All right. We will research that. All I want to do is schedule a meeting where we figure out our timeline because all we did was the process. We didn't do that. >> Right. >> And we did accept that motion. >> No, I don't think we did. Did we? Do we have to do >> it? It'll appear next. The parliamentarian said the way that we do it is that it'll appear next to vote on the next meeting. >> So, we don't have to second it in order for it to be emotional. >> See, it's very simple. And the >> we've never done
161it this way. That's why I'm sorry. I'm so confused right now. And >> well, okay, let me rephrase it for you. Um, Katrina made a motion, which which always has to be. >> Will you let me finish, please? Katrina made a motion and based on Margaret's parliamentarian knowledge and research that she's done, it it automatically will happen at our next meeting and then we vote on it. And Margaret was explaining what could happen if the bull were tied. So the the the description of the motion, someone who took notes will be given to read. It'll be on our agenda for the next time. >> Okay. So it'll just be end to add it as an agenda. >> Right. Right. Right. I have a question uh for our prime and uh for people that at any
162meeting who are going to be there or not be there could they send their vote in or um zooming in or >> no >> if you zoom in you're pardon me if you zoom in >> if you zoom in okay So, we got a little um hairy in our but that's okay. We we worked it out and that's the bottom line. So, um are there any other comments or requests for anything? Oh, I'm sorry. I know I jumped a lot. No, this is not a big thing. I just wanted to point out that moving eighth grade to the high school requires a lot more planning. What Alan what do Dr. Harris talked about requires a lot more planning than moving the fifth down. And I just wanted to make that change. >> That is my
163opinion. And I state to the concerns. >> Okay. >> Yeah. >> Can I make a motion to adjurnn? There we go. >> I knew you were there. I was going to in favor. >> I didn't hear any abstain. >> Okay. Top of the neck.