001all right 6 o' calling the nor school committee Wednesday March 26 2025 to order uh first up is the bud of Allegiance um the meeting is being recorded by New Media um if anyone else is recording please just let us know um then the first up is public comment period we have a big audience but I don't think there anyone's here to speak so we'll pass on that uh next is to vote to approve the minutes of March 8th uh our budget workshop and March 12th our Open session meeting I'll entertain a motion to approve the March 8th budget Workshop meeting minutes first second all those in favor and then second vote for March 12th uh the everyone got a chance to review all these good okay um March 12 minutes I'll ENT motion to
002approve so second all those in favor thank you very much next up is warrants I reviewed and approved the following warrants oh sorry micop um School expense warrant March 12th 2025 55,985 School payroll warrant March 6 2025 1,1 126,127 186 I was that public record thank you Sher and to Justus Antonio for the student rep update all right good evening everybody um from the high school there are a lot of cool things happening in the next few months Springs sport are in full swing the electric here company presents Little Shop of Horrors on April 5th 6th and 7th V show is coming up on May 1st and then prop tickets going still next week for prom on May 23rd and then from the JCS the students at the JCS are wearing their Sea Turtle gear
003this Friday and up and optionally donating a dollar to raise money to help the cold stun sea turtles of Cap Cod we're also partnering with the DCS School parent organization SBO to host a schoolwide ice cream party next Friday to recognize the work students did as part of our grade level coin Wars last Friday students at the JCS were their most colorful and fun stocks to celebrate and show our support for World down day that's all I have for you tonight thank you very much uh next up is Dr O'Neal with our student Spotlight series good evening everyone thank you all so much for coming out tonight uh tonight it is my pleasure to introduce Mr Eddie abdal and his seventh grade scientists I'm going to give a brief overview and I'm going to ask
004Mr abdow and his students to come up and share some of their work with us um recently Mr abdow and his seventh grade science students showcased their experiments on static electricity and magnetism at the recent steam event with enthusiasm and a Hands-On approach they brought the scientific Concepts to life engaging families and younger students to get involved in the demonstrations additionally they demonstrated the use of hot plates and scale and scales received through a life science grant showing real world's applications of these resources Mr abdow and his students here tonight and would like to invite them up to the podium to share um a little statement and maybe some of what was fun about it on where do you want us so Carrie Murphy does the steam showcase every year at the high school and
005when I got the email I I said Bo this would be fun if we we did something like this and um through all my science classes I just said would anybody be interested in these pleas find children we'll do it we'll do it so I said all right we'll have a lunch and we'll talk about it so we met at lunch we had a great turnout we all had great ideas and um everybody said I want to do this I want to do this we let them pick um Dr aaman and I spoke and we got this life science grant that we worked so hard to get last year and we thought it would be great to bring that new equipment in just to show the difference between what we had last year and what
006we have this year scales hot plates how much easier they are for our kids um this is my second year in Norton even though I look a lot older um things like this steam nights it was a blast it really was these kids impressed me so much um and the enthusiasm they bring they love science they love science and you know Mr Goldstein walked in and they didn't get scared so you know they good kids um does anybody want to say anything you say for far hi why don't you just bring your the microphone out a little bit there you go hi um it was enjoyable like doing the like ra thing because like I like flying objects they're fun and um you guys like chicken thank you thank you for anybody else so we
007have Ford we have Co col Ryan Owen Schism Ryan Bailey El Mor sorry Timothy Bailey I have one um Ella Morris Mia Abram and Addie Turner would you guys be okay if I asked Mrs Hatfield to take a picture and maybe Dr Aran will would be willing to hop in it too since he was so instrumental in securing the um science um Supply gr all right thank you great work I know if you guys want to stay you're more than welcome to but if you guys all want to get up and leave we can give you like 30 seconds thank you thank you so much for coming out tonight all right next up on the agenda is school start time update Dr okay thank you very much um so in December we had gave our
008first presentation to the committee on um what the school start time committee came up with and I wanted to bring this back to the Forefront um to share a couple updates with you and to talk about some upcoming um Community forums and opportunities for staff and families to ask questions about what this could potentially look like so let me just start by U reminding us of what our current times and transportation um responsibilities are um right now we have the high school and our LG North school that begin right around 7:40 7:45 each day um then we have our joint um bus run of the yell in the middle school and then JCS which is not start until 9:15 and gets out at 3:35 one of the primary goals of the committee was to take
009a look at ways that we could get our elementary students more on a similar schedule um ultimately because we know there's a lot of opportunity for collaboration looking at student data combined professional development which at the end of the day we hope would really um enhance our achieve our achievement for all students so that that was ultimately the goal um we also had a lot of data from from families that showed that um they're youngest Learners uh at 7:45 in the morning they are upten they are rare and to go they're ready for school school and at the 915 started is really difficult um there's also a lot of research and data about high school students and teenagers and those almost teenagers in in sleep so we went into all of this with all of
010these things that we were considering and try to figure out the best way to make this happen without um you know really going over a board financially so after doing survey data and um looking at research and looking at um all sorts of options we presented the committee with option two option two would align the high school and middle school start time to the combined bus route and it would get all of our elementary schools into um an aligned start time um this would means students in ki would ride on a combined bus route so all of our elementary students would get picked up at the same time buses would come from across town to drop off of the Yellow School our fourth and fifth graders and then they would um divide and conquer to
011drop off those remaining students at JCS and lgn there are definitely some benefits um to option two um as I mentioned it brings that consistent start time for students in k um 6 12 um there is definitely the possibility for collaboration between the high school and the middle school um there could be the option for um students at the middle school to take some advanced classes if they were on a similar schedule um for sharing of Staff right now we have a number of U Middle School students that play up on high school sports teams and because the afternoon dismissal times are you know almost an hour off they're missing a lot of instructional time at the middle school if they are released for games um which makes it really really challenging and there's also
012the potential of you know looking at like student to student mentoring between middle schoolers and high schoolers um as I shared the Elementary start times this could actually bring all of our elementary schools to a consistent start time for the first time in at least 25 years um we the current schedule that we are on has been in play for 21 years um share professional learning opportunities the grade level data meetings one of the biggest challenges we have is when our third graders move up to the there are huge inconsistencies between um special education referrals and um interventions that students are receiving because there is not that opportunity to really look at the third grade as a whole we look at it building by building um and then also you know intervention planning this also
013could have a potential benefit of being able to consolidate some of our special a high programs based on student me meet for example right now if you are in a language-based classroom you have to go to JCS there is not a language based classroom at lgm um so unfortunately and same thing with our step program um so for families that can be challenging because they can have one student who needs that specialized program and other students who are at their home school with very different schedules um and then also option two allows our older students to still get out of school before their um which um some families do rely on for um after school care I shared with you what we kind of went into focusing on and thinking about so there all of
014course challenges to this issue here um the later start time for LG Norse it does not alleviate any of the concerns that we had about how available students are for learning later in the afternoon one of the biggest challenges Es at JCS right now is um fam saying that their kids are coming home when it's Darko and we know in those winter months that that is absolutely true um and we also have information from our teachers about by 2 o'clock these kids are exhausted because they have been up early and you know their optimal time for learning is is kind of done um we have heard some concern from families about um you know combining students St in grade 6 to 12 on the same bus or um kindergarten through grade five so we would
015need to look at uh steps for safety and then there is a financial application for this as well um if we were to reduce the buses down um to two tiers we would need to add a bus at the high school and middle school run um and ALS we definitely need to add one of the high school um sorry the elementary run and potentially one of the high school middle school run is well and for each bus it's about $60,000 so you can see there that that is the financial impact um as I know we are all aware that um you know we've had some budget difficulties in the last year um and I know that one of the concerns I've received from staff is to put that kind of money towards busing instead of
016towards Staffing is a little bit of um a tough thing for us to all kind of get behind so that is another challenge of this option so one of the things that we talked about the last time was if the committee decided that we we do feel it's appropriate for us to um change start times for the fall of 2026 how could we Implement that in the most effective way um so one would be to um have a strict bus registration de for students that are um choosing to ride the bus to and from school Under Mass General law we are responsible for busing students that live over two miles from their school in grades kindergarten through six we do not have a legal obligation to bus anyone underneath that two miles or to bus
017anyone over um in grade seven or above so what we would do is we would ask all students to register um we would make sure that those students that are we are required to transport would be placed first and then it would kind of come on a first come first serve basis for any leftover seats um we would say the students that do not register by the deadline will not be guaranteed busing only in cases where there is room available for them on their route um so that would be if we did that that we could do that across K to 12 or we could do that across just grade 7 to 12 and then the op another option for implementation would be a two-year roll out and this is I changed this a little
018bit from the last time you guys saw this so this would get this new proposal would get four out of five schools on their new timeline in year one previously we had the high school and the middle school just as you see here and then we tried to get JCS and lgm together but that would have meant a very late start for the Y just to move back up to 835 and to move the yell for one year um for those teachers and students it just doesn't make sense um so this proposal looks instead at moving so it this would have the high school and the middle school those would be their new times moving forward the yell that would be their new time moving forward and the that would be there in a new
019time moving forward and JCS would stay at their current time for that one year before rolling over to the um the next year if we needed to do a two-year roll out because of the financial concerns any questions on that before I move on Nick what our doing this roll out what is the savings looking like and why so so ultimately you would not need to do the cost of two buses in in one year so instead of putting $144,000 towards this um all at once you would add one bus in year one for the high school middle school run and then you would add the second bus in year two for the elementary run and so it really is just splitting the cost because you would have the first bus built in your budget
020for the following year so would we have to add a bus due to increase ridership based on our current ridership now we would not be able to accommodate the number of students that ride with only two tiers of busting so right now when we think about our tiers we have the high school and lgn on one you have lgn is a very small school high school a lot of Juniors and seniors drop then you have the yell and the middle school together which is our very very full run every single gos is Pretty P and then you have JCS which has more students than lgn and a little bit of a you know higher ridership as well so to get those three elementary schools together or to get the middle school and high schoolers together
021with their bigger kids you would need to add a bus at each tier unless you go with the bus limiting and we keep the numbers that we have well my another option is if we talk to our provider to see if they have this the separate style bus that allows for more capacity because those flatten those buses allow for 83 passengers legally so which would be so instead of maybe ping a bus per se if we get them to swap out a conventional versus a flat nose and we identify the roots with higher Riders shed we may have more cost savings by if they have those in their Fleet that's a great idea we can look into that ultimately if I was to give you guys a recommendation for the for the roll out of
022the time change this would be the last one I would ever recommend because it potentially sets number one you need to have the finances in place in in two spots and it sets us up for a situation of what happened 21 years ago when we told JC oh we didn't tell JCS but when JCS was told this is going to happen for a year and they're still in the same place 20 years later so that is my big biggest hesitation um I am going to be doing a few upcoming events but before I talk about those I I do you know the last time we met and talked about this um I had also said to the committee that this may be an issue that we say now is not the right time um and
023the reason for that is simply because of some of the new um building that is occurring in town as we know we have a big subdivision going in on Pine Street where the student there will all be at lgn um we will we have Norton lyx where that is a JCS elementary school and then several other projects that are kind of hanging in balance at the moment so um part of me is is very hesitant to change times now and then potentially we need to look at redistricting or another significant change a year or two after we've made this change um but I I was tasked with bringing you guys information on school starts and so this is what we're doing um but it is something that I think we need to consider so I
024am visiting all of the um the School parent boards this month and presenting to them um this next Friday my newsletter goes out again and it will be the whole Focus will be around um start time and then I will also be doing a community Forum on start time on April 28th um it's funny because I got a lot of emails from staff today especially at the lgn when I re-shared out what I was going to be sharing with you all tonight um and you know obviously that staff has a lot of concerns because there would be moving from an early time to a late time um so I I think it's it's really important for us to really look at all the factors um if we were in a perfect world and you know
025money wasn't an option we could get all of our elementary schools at 8 o' and then you had you know middle school and high school coming in at 8:20 giving the kids a little bit more time for sleep but also not making them super late in the afternoon that would be ideal one of the other things I personally would love with my own background in teaching and learning you guys know how long I I served in that role I would love to have all of our first grade classes in one building all of our second grade classes in one building um and be able to you know have our students together in that type of collaboration amongst classroom teachers so um I just want us to make sure that we're we're considering all of those
026options as we move forward so um I will likely also do a staff Forum at some point this month um just because of the amount of feedback that I received um from staff today as well I mean I think for me personally like when we when we tasked you with this undertaking for me it was less about the start times per se more about that redistricting because we had had a couple of meetings where we had looked at this potential growth that's going to happen in the next couple of years and realizing at that point that belg would would not be able to accommodate it and so to me you know this this would be the the first step would be aligning the elementary schools and then probably looking at redistricting as a second part
027of this this project because we would we would have no choice in a couple years but to regist but I think it's easier to look at register day when we have both elementary schools on the same schedule you know it might be a you know a couple of streets here and there but you know it could it for me I I haven't had an elementary school student in a lot of years but it's a big difference if you have to prepare your kids and your family for a 720 drop off versus a 920 drop off whereas you know as of 2026 potentially Elementary drop off is 8:3 and not getting into picking your school but you know that that's kind of like I I think the two things we're talking about are mutually exclusive you
028know redistricting is like the second part school start time and I think to I I agree for the most part the only cons I guess the only thing I would we would need to consider is what are the roles of five schools if you're going to redistrict right because ultimately at the end of the day you have space contraints everywhere you go um so but we will also hear at one time JCS had a th students there and they did they also didn't have all the specialized programs that we currently have now so and I'm just saying things and this is not gospel or nothing has been decided so I think it's important to preface my statement with that I mean if you decided to say lgn is our smallest school that's where we're going
029to put little Lancers in all kindergarten students that could have a different like that might that start time there might fluctuate where you might have and again J CS is first second third and the lgn is still 45 or you know I I don't know or we have two one to four schools and the fifth grade goes to the middle school I think a lot of those things could potentially have an impact on the start time too if you if lgm was just preschool and we weren't required to transport those students then that takes a little bit of of the pressure in terms of getting to a fifth building so I I just I think there just some unknown factors but but I do agree with what you're saying NE sorry Dan I know your
030name I'm okay any anyone else yeah I kind of agree with Dan I feel like there they're two separate things but I also feel that what we're trying to do is do what best for our students you know and I don't want to get stuck on a thing where we're going to wait because oh we might be adding housing or oh we might have to redistrict or oh we might have to do this while we're you know going one two three whoever knows you know like you said no one's others are going to last 21 years and here we are um so I mean that is just a little bit one of my concerns I mean I'm under the impression that I think from a northern Community standpoint I hate that the noron middle school
031kids are leaving class early to go to a school team that to me is absolutely race you know we barely do that very rarely do we ever do that out the high school never mind now we're bringing in Middle you know middle school students who are you know need to be there more more so than than maybe anybody else in all of our schools um I absolutely hate that you know we're bringing kids up to the high school level because those times are off you know this this is where we're at again we also don't have an unlimited checkbook so I I I get the I get both scenarios here I definitely do not like the double roll out to save $63,000 we don't know who's going to be riding we have as we all
032know we kind of have a history of the middle school you know where kids might ride in the morning but they don't ride in the afternoon or they ride for a quarter of the year then their two sports start up and they Don't Ride the rest of the year you know so I wonder if there's some other wage we could look at this to potentially save but also I agree with you too Jenna's you know $144,000 is give or take two teachers you know five par whatever that number may be that you know now you're dumping it back into Transportation but unfortunately our job is to do what's best for you know the majority of students that's how we have to operate so to me I would kind of like to go ahead and take
033the recommendations and figure out where we want to go with them I think there kind of this timeline up here as far as you know Community Forum newsletters you know hearing know from our staff and whatever no one likes change we know LG teachers aren't going to like change I get it I would much rather be at work from 6:00 to two than 9 to five it is what it is you know um so again I not want be work I might my I think my biggest concern Nick and you just hit the nail on the head is like we're trying to do its best for students and I don't know if option two is getting us to what's best for students or we're doing the best we can with the constraints that we have
034and and so that's where I'm a little bit hesitant to like really put my back behind something we we need to change start times to get JC an lgn on the same playing field it we have been having this conversation for a really long time if other people have other ideas of ways that we can make this work I I please like email me call me like um I just don't know that this is the best it was the best of the options we had but I don't know if it's the best option and I'm being just very honest and Frank with all of you as I try to be with my staff then I mean I agree and I feel like JCS we definitely need to move up that St time for sure that's
035a huge it's a huge difference from LG and in this scenario it's moving you guys about 25 minutes which 25 minutes is great like it's it's better than nothing but it's not the ideal of what we wish we could do and you know J to kind touch up on your point if we ever went down the road of again hypothetically saying LG turns into little Lancers in kindergarten again throwing this out one two and three at JCS keep four and five ate what does that do we would be we be eliminating bus saving potential money I would assume but then you'd have to bus all those LG students to the DCS that maybe don't get busam because now they're more than two miles away from there it's like what needs to be done first do
036we look at redist redistri first and then fig no it's very much a chicken egg conversation and that's why we're here yeah we've had this conversation so many times and we just couldn't decide which was to be done first yeah yeah agreed I mean just next then is maybe we this is a very slippery SL to go down but like is the next piece then looking at combining schools to a certain degree and moving people around and that is a big can of forms to open in terms of you know our our first Learners are coming in who've been used to doing jar whatever for the last who knows how long 85 years of of where they're going and what side of town goes to what school and now it would be you're going to
037actually be at the LG to start your North schools then you're going to move to JCS and you're going to go through schools used to be so my kids went to preschool at LG and then went to JCS for elementary so they used to be like that yeah but we didn't have preschool I mean back going back for you know nor public school started today uh there was also a time where all kindergarteners went to JCS yeah yeah and I'm trying to think yeah I'm gon to say probably 25 years ago is my seven I mean and I again we don't get ahead of us little bit here either but like there's to me there's something to keeping little kids together and there's definitely something to keeping first second third graders together all of these
038kids are immersed in the community you have this weird thing we've known the struggles in fourth grade for how long about their you know whether it be test scores Behavior stuff blah blah blah it's kind of that age where you're merging them two schools and our fourth grade has always significant struggled a little bit more academically again could be multiple of reasons but is that one you know um so I mean I think you know in a small town like this it is a little kind of random to have two elementary schools you know but however in order to do it all correctly we gotta make sure we have the space because if we don't have the space and that changes the whole dynamic and this conversation never can even happen cor I think you're
039answering your own question I think we need to look at the whole pre districting thing for or putting free in kindergarten LG I think we need to look at that before we can even vote on anything like this and so often times when you have Community Elementary Schools or like neighborhood schools those are typically K to5 schools and kids come together in Middle School um so we have a very non-traditional setup with the two elementary schools and then an intermediate school um this is this date is probably old because I remember at one time I looked up how many four or five schools there were in the state of Massachusetts and there was like 11 so it's a very non-traditional setup um I personally I don't know that this is like that moving the times
040just to move the times is the answer I I think we probably need to roll up our sleeves and be a little bit more um comprehensive when it comes to where people need to go in order to make this work and make it work long term and again and as you said no one likes change every time a community goes through a redistrict redistricting conversation or a school start time conversation that is when people come out it is very very people love their home schools like um you know you were either a JCS kid or an lgn kid and everyone asks the question JCS lgm right and so it that's that's hard to give that up and so I think we need to be very thoughtful I think we need to be very careful I
041think we need to involve the community um in more in more ways than this to figure out what that looks like um but it will it's going to be a very comprehensive process it sounds like a very big undertaking as well as you think about the classroom size the CL the space that we have in the classrooms and the programs and how that's all going to work like is that something that we have staff that can do that or is that something where you have outside consulting company come in and they look at like space efficiency and how that whole situation works that's a great question and ultimately I think what I would probably look into because as Sher said we've had this conversation multiple times and we kind of keep circling sorry I going
042to say circling the drain but like we can't make a decision on this because there are so many factors that I think um are really challenging to predict I think it might be beneficial to look and see who's out there in terms of a Consulting Group that would that is well versed in this type of work and then also see what that would cost right because at the end of the day we are trying to be you know phisically respons so that we can keep staff in classrooms with kids but if we did I'm happy to do that work I'm happy to go out and to see what's available I'm also happy to go out and to reach out to my colleagues across the state um people who have done this work recently how do
043they do it did they use someone do they use it in housee would they be willing to share their process um because if we are not able to hire someone and we can learn from others successes and challenges then that is just beneficial to us in in the long run so if that's what we want to do um we can I'll work I'll let you guys decide kind of how you want to move forward I think that that to me that sounds like a better idea um because I think you know over the years we've had a number of committees where we're having people come in to meetings you know every week and it's just in these poor people spend all these hours and they're you know they're precious time and then like oh no
044change because it just didn't it wasn't the ideal situation so I think exactly what you said I would be comfortable saying tonight I think that's exactly what we need to do you yeah like 100% would I think that's I think we need start there but again I think the sh point like I sat school start time committee we were calling it you know it's just you just you have a lot of people involved you've got teachers and students and community members you know and it's like you know I feel like this is not the first time we've done this first time I may have done it but you know I think that's that ultimate thing that you don't want to waste people's time so and if again I would like to get it right and
045then maybe plug up that dram so we stop flushing down well I mean there there's nothing that says we can't reengage the committee and then look at do we look at redistricting on top of School St times or you know relocation versus redistricting and I say relocation meaning do we have like an Early Childhood Center at LG or whatever that like so I mean I think they're all you know they're all valid concerns I mean you know but to the point of a consultant is like if we're looking to save x amount of money and then we spend that on a consultant then we didn't save any money so that's you know that's the challenges but I think Jen reaching up to colleagues too is that I think that's the that's what I was talking
046about that's the first St um I think that ultimately you don't know what you don't know right so reaching out and um seeing what other people did seeing what other people if there were people that they used um and and then we bring that to a conversation and say you know we might be willing to spend 10 grand but we might not be willing to spend 50 and that's a conversation for for this group as well um so there there's no vote on the calendar on the calendar on the agenda for tonight um but what I'm understanding from the committee is that we would like to explore a little bit further some of our options um and maybe put this on hold at the moment yeah I think it's one of those things where you
047know we appreciate everyone's work on it but as you peel back another layer we realize that if we're going to change we can change start times cool what is it is it what's best for everybody maybe it saves a little money it might not you know but then does redistricting and that's the part about redistricting and you know we get into that layer of the conversation is there any savings there or are we doing it just to do it and that's where we need to show this is what's going to be best for our students for X Y and Z you know not just do it just because hey your schools are out of alignment let's align them that's there's no benefit there thank you all absolutely um I want to get this right to
048as much as you guys want to get it right because I think it would be a really big thing for us here in Norton and I know I want my name attached to something that will be successful and I know you guys do too so um why don't I um start my um Recon process and I'll bring you some information at the next meeting yeah I think that my last point is like I just don't want it to be slipping through cracks if you will so if it's something that we can kind of get a timeline on I think that would be ideal to kind of make sure we stay on you know summer's going to be here quickly then it's fall and it's you know I don't want be back in a situation in
0492027 2028 being like Oh we've got you know yeah so I I'll definitely collect as much data as I can and I'll give a a update for the meeting on April 16th um and then it maybe there we'll H we'll have add a vote to the agenda um maybe for we're going to table it at this time or Nick you and I can be in touch between now and then just to kind of figure out what that vote might look like um but I probably if that's the case I'm going to hold on these parent forums as well um so all right so we'll discuss again on 16 yeah definitely let's hold we sto doing that stuff they're gonna be pick up mine out there um all right next up is uh review and vote
050to the changes to the 25 26 school calendar all right um so uh we mentioned that we' be bringing back the calendar for you to take a look at our early release days for the fall um so as you know we typically do early release days every month um except for November December and June and those early release days are for staff professional development um you'll notice that we have moved the early release days for the upcoming school year from Fridays to Wednesdays um we hope that this is a positive change both for staff professional development and for families um and they are being consistent uh with the last week of the month except for um March because that last Wednesday backs up to Elementary conferences and we knew that might be a challenge for
051families that week um other than that there are no changes to the calendar itself um everything else else is as previously voted first day on September 2nd for GR um 1 through 12 first day for kindergarten is is the 3D and then first day for little ltis is the fourth um with no snow days we will be out on Friday June 12 questions from the committee I'm curious um is do all towns do this like once a month half day situation uh unless unless they have a large number of professional development days built into their contract um so I'll give you two examples of local communities um Fox borrow um their teachers work 185 days students come to school for 180 and then they have five full personal days oh yes thank you not personal
052days professional development days yeah sorry um so they do not do any early Rel days at all um those teachers come and they do those extra days um my own children attend school in Mansfield their teachers work 182 days and they have one professional development day a month as well so the the early the early release days yes so I know there's two districts I can speak of just from my professional experience in my private career um there's a school district that service that the high school has a day a month from September to April that is a half day so they have one a month there's a school district in another part of the state that has a half day every Wednesday every Wednesday every Wednesday of the school year um but that's yeah
053there's a story behind it but don't get into but so you know half days are you know like one of my school districts that I serve has six half days between their five schools in the month of April and three of them are in the same week but it's just half days are kind of a a weird thing for some schools but it's not always one one a month or or something like that there multiple right this is a big question for you so we have 10 District wide early release days if I read this correctly we have one additional day for North Middle School for I believe conferences we have two additional days for call K through six or K through five rather and then we have four probably around High School exams how
054much like with those 10 days are all five or sorry all 10 of those days half days all PD no there are um days there that are for um conferences for parent teacher conferences so so how many November date is um the Wednesday before Thanksgiving that's a half day um the 23rd of December is a half day before the break and then the last day of school is a half day so there are seven half days for professional development so on those half days so we'll call it 1.5 days if you have those three down the teachers wrote early too yes okay so we're giving them 1.5 additional days of PID time off or if you want to shake it out because it's counting for a full day so the last day of school is
055a full day for staff because they close up their classrooms but the half day and when yeah the December and the November yeah so one day so they're getting one day for free okay and then so Brian from your standpoint the seven other days half days are all PD here there so we have three and a half full days of PD plus the one in the beginning of the year so four and a half days of P right okay and is that too much to little right [Music] on if you're asking me personally I am asking you person I think in order to really maximize the time the more full days you have the better um as we kind of saw with the school start time with the disparity in time between l LG and
056JCS in particular with look looking at new curricula and the value of having Educators together um we make it work because we we have great staff but um logistically it it takes it takes a plan and as someone who planned PV for 12 years I'd say it's not enough and and I only say that because you know as Brian said so eloquently and he's so much better at that stuff than I am um it's really really challenging to get especially the Elementary staff together and there's just simply not enough time in the day when you consider a brand new math program two years ago and or last year and a brand new maath program this year K to eight um El program this year um that takes considerable amount of time and there are often
057like Brian plans coaching days on other days that are not PD days so teachers might get coverage for an hour and they're involved in a coaching session during the during during the school day um or we have um Consultants come in and watch people teach and give them feedback so there are other PD things that happen throughout the course of the year um you know again if we're on our dream dream things I would love to have 18 185 days like foxb does and be able to kind of spread them out throughout the course of the year but that's not what our contract is so then my next question would be if like PD in May May 27th April 29th the year is almost over what are we doing for PD so there there's a
058few things um particularly with the curriculum adoptions that we've had you have to be intentional about having three to four planned longitudinal offerings for people one of which is towards the end of the year because you want to make sure that the Educators lead for the year feeling really confident and kind of closing out so without question that's one of the the the huge values of having something towards the end and then in may we typically devote some time to Transitions because you have students moving from grade to grade and school to school and trying to ensure that information travels smoothly is really important are we obligated as a District or like does the state have some regulations on like how much we need to offer professional development or how much the teachers need to
059um like whatever they need for their professional like how many hours do they need I guess so there's not a set time um however you know we are teachers are responsible for getting you know professional development points in order to renew their license um and you we are obligated to provide professional development for anything that we're going to ask them to do so if we're implementing a new program we need to provide the training if we're going to ask them to use um a trauma sensitive approach to working with students we have to provide the training um this year we rolled out a new I which is required by the state of Massachusetts that took up a considerable amount of professional development time with our staff um and that's something that's still ongoing um one
060of the challenges of with our current you know schedules the way that we can have things working we don't have common planning time for teachers during the course of the day we don't have time for teachers to look at student data and to have data meetings so we use our PD time for all of those things there's just not enough time in the week or within our contractual time that we have our teachers to be able to do those other things um so as you know Brian said it takes a lot of careful planning to kind of get everything into those half days as we have them now um I would hate to see us give up some of those without us adding a day to the calendar right I just I've said it I
061know it's hard for families right I've said it before and like I've had a lot of people in the community at like this is a You Know It's Tricky scheduling wise and then from a little lancer's perspective those PM kids are still now getting they're paying the full tuition they're paying like everybody else but they're losing those days I don't know who's going to kill me for saying this but um there was a year where we gonna be it's gonna be Christine that's gonna kill me we flipped back and forth so like am kids would miss one month PM kids would miss another month I don't know why we don't do it did that so long ago 19 there okay I don't know why we stopped doing that um I was not involved in that
062conversation because I was in my previous role at the time um but it's something that we could look at I mean I would just I'd love to I get I understand professional development I think it's fantastic I I love everything about that I just the half days are just real I'd really love to see full full days the half days for November and December that in June absolutely done so you got you got sold on those other ones are just real real freaking so from a stpoint again obviously we're in teaching negotiation contract wise we gotta be a little casual here but how do we like okay so we have 3.5 peing days tied up in the in the set early release days if we made that three full days is that enough it's two
063full days rather than separating them out being by half trying to get half fell G teams down here for this meeting like how much you know how much if we hypothetically said hey we're going to do a PD in the beginning of the year throwing this out election day is going to be teachers only know know students and then we picked a random day you know t on April April break whatever with those three days of PD be enough full three full PS not halfs I would I would say from a teaching and learning perspective yes so and unfortunately you have the director of counseling and the director of special education shaking their head in the audience I think there's a couple of potential issues with that one of it is the mandated trainings that
064have H on a certain cycle the only way to do that then would be to you'd have to they people to stay after school um so that because it's a cycle not everybody's on the same cycle so that's one piece and then there are certain PD that you just need to get the PD you need to implement it they need to come back and follow up have the next piece of it so we just did coming corners for example and that took a number of sessions over time so it's that something we can do boom so when you get with the more I think said The more complicated um situ situations that we sometimes get invol yeah I think it becomes a problem that there's there's not time to implement coach revie implement the next
065step and do it again so that's that would be my concern of just having three big junks you're going to do it the way that that Foxboro does it where you have more time then maybe that that would work now but from from your standpoint I think a common corners from that standpoint what does it look like okay you know we do our first one we got a follow up we do an end one or whatever do you need a half days in order to do that or is that more of like hey we need to follow up for an hour hey we need to do an hour and a half hey we need you to do this at by this certain dat yeah I think that it's one and again it goes back to
066the it all from school Circle right so it all goes back to that District start time and aligning those space because theoretically we only have an hour and a half with staff in order to provide um everyone the same information the same thing so it's really it's it's hard to say um because right now the model that we're doing it's now 1 to 2:30 because that's the only time that really overlaps for everyone and then we so but if we had a larger period of time maybe we'd be able to do for some things' be able to get more done in one time and then have one followup versus having the series of five that we have right now so I mean it's it's kind of a it's it's very much a chicken in the
067egg yeah the other issue you might run into is is the amount of when you're talking about bringing people in right non like non Norton staff now you've limited it to three blocks time and you you know you might need an hour and a half to this an hour but you might not be able to get people for those just you have a larger variety of time to offer people um so that's for example and and I think unfortunately I would I would love to do the full days it's going to have a financial impact when it comes to negotiations right obviously they don't want to get paid for their time I get it you know um I mean I guess the last piece of this is we got 180 days on the calendar 10
068of them are early releases they still come as full days correct they do and we also make the minimum hours as required by the state it's 990 hours for um midd High School 900 hours for elementary because ultimately that is what is my biggest concern our test scores are going down we're having issues you know across the board you know testing score wise behavioral reading whatever it may be and yet here we are once a month letting these kids out of school early away from what they're here to do which is learn you know so when you add those days up to me you're not doing a disservice necessarily to families and making a trickier for schedule when getting someone out of work and so on and so forth you're also taking kidss out of
069the classroom but I mean to counter that point we just looked at new curriculum to adopt to hopefully enhance our test scores and now we need the teachers to train on it so it's it's again it's that chicken or the egg conversation is no one's going to work for free in any in any scenario where if we say this is your new curriculum um take a couple hours on a Friday night at your house and learn it it's not going to work so we have to give the teachers the tools to succeed so there has to be time granted to do that and you know I'm I'm kind of out of the conversation because I have a child that I could just say you have a half day find your way home you know so
070and I get that but you know half days aren't anything new you know they've been around since the beginning of of schools so I mean it's it's in it's an inconvenience for sure I remember it was inconvenience when my kids did have Elementary you know earlyer these days but it's you know there's no other time you know it's not like we we don't pay overtime or anything like that teachers probably do I guarantee work on their own time and they don't get paid for it we can't keep adding more work for our staff to do on their own we have to support them and this is the time we would have to use to do it unfortunately and you know research shows the biggest indicator of Student Success is a high quality teacher so making
071sure that we're giving teachers the appropriate PD is hopefully going to improve some of those yeah and and again I don't think I don't want to take away PD GES that is not you know def I don't want to do that but if we're only getting an hour and a half PD for every half day that doesn't make much sense to me either oh so no so no so some we only have a hour and a half of cross overtime between JCS and lgm so sometimes we're saying okay this is going to happen in this 90 minute long but before that lgn is doing these other things and JCS is doing these other things it's closer to three hours of every um PD day it's just the collaboration time yeah because start sches I again
072I don't know It's Tricky it's definitely tricky there's no question about it you we have to have PD you know so I I totally understand that I just love to look at we deal with this election again obviously this year is not going to be an election year but we deal with the election year I feel like that would be a great place to start that we dag in right there alone there's one full PD day the teachers already owe us one and a half technically so we wouldn't have to technically negotiate anything I would assume since they're already getting one and a half for days technically still a half well and correct me if I'm wrong Dr but if if it is an election year even though our calendar is set we can take
073back a half day and make that with professional development haven't we done that before didn't we do one year we can't add to the number of days they were so we would have to just so for example we just closed school on November 6 and everyone who works 12 months comes to school and everyone who is you know 182 day employee stays home and we add a day on at the end of the year um um and and you know ultimately hopefully we don't have to always close for election days you know the last couple have you know we only close for presidential um we don't close for every election day but um you know I mean I as I said ideally it would be great to get another full day on the calendar but
074you know that that's a process that we have to go through that outside of um our meeting and you know we can look at other creative ideas um and if anything changes we would come back update the calendar but um I just don't I just I just don't know February and April like they were just home for a week and then they come back for two days and then it's in early released like that's up industry so much yeah y y and I do think it's important too because I'm very lucky with my mother-in-law I don't have to get out of work I don't have to deal with any of the stuff my mother-in-law takes my kids so it's not coming from that place either you know I'm not really inconvenient by half days I
075can just just see how many people could be I'm Brian and I can certainly look at February and April to see if we can move those dates around a little bit um if you guys want us to do that um I mean we could look at you know I hate to add one in November because you have right um You have Veterans Day you have Thanksgiving it's like the shortest month ever maybe in March if there were we could March you brought that March has been so long march is the longest month for for educators in in my world Transportation so we're looking and maybe will'll propose moving February 25th to March 4th so we would have a March 4th early release and a March 18th early release so that would be two there for
076that long month um and then you know unfortunately elementary students already have on the so I mean what is again I think you know the L in the room if you will the teacher negotiations if we able this bring this up to the teachers and figure out kind of maybe where we're at you guys can do whatever you want that's not the case well in terms of tabling our voting you can say we want to you know we want to get further along in negotiations before we we don't have this conversation I mean I I would look to the boms I think this is me because like what is I don't plan out till September I don't know like what does it look like from a family standpoint of like hey the sooner I get
077the calendar the better is it something that can't wait definitely my calendar's planned out for like six more months so it's the sooner the better but I think it needs to be right yeah I mean I think that's the general consensus when we've looked at school calendars in the past and that's why we went a few years back I believe we went to a two-year cycle because people are planning you know always you know back when we had Good Friday is Good Friday before the holiday uh before the April break I I can get an extra day and go somewhere out again so I mean for families they want to know as early as possible but if we T this till next meeting is that you or not time well I mean it really it
078depends on what everyone's hangup is I mean we we need to give them professional development so we have to do it as a half day because it's not an election year and we can't give that as a full day PD so if the hangup is just and this is where I'm looking to you guys like I guess we basically want to know if we're voting yes or no if not why are we tbling it because you know half day is is when teachers become available to collaborate and learn your curriculum and I understand that they may be an inconvenience and I get that and I'm sympathetic to that but at the same time you know all of us in our professional experiences we're not going to you know take on something new and not be
079able to train for it because then we're asking our Educators to do something that they're probably uncomfortable doing and they need help us so I I have have no problem voting on it as it's presented but I might be the minority when I say that so if those who have the concerns you know then that would be what needs to be addressed I mean my only concern when we've ever talked about the school calendar is the longest month ever of March um I I agree to to not have them during those vacation months um if they can be put somewhere else but um for me I I don't have an issue with any of these but again I'm I'm far removed from having to worry about child care a half day but that's just so
080if if the committee was um interested we could move the February 25th to March 4th if um we're concerned about three half days in eight in um March we could potentially move the um 18th to April 1st and then you can move April 29th to May 6th or we leave the 18th as is and then we could move the April one to again March 6th or you could do April 8th I like the idea of having one in Mar in May so May 27th is already there but if we wanted to move the 29th we could move that to May 6th and then so February would not have any in April would not have any but March and may would have two and I don't know how of a nightmare than is for sorry anybody
081else I know it's not an election year but can you clarify why couldn't we make November 4th it's not a national election the local elections be usually typically so we could make no the November dat a professional development day however if we only have two days for staff we frontload a lot of people at the beginning of the year so if we have new new tech or a new curriculum or any of those things it's really nice to have a day at the beginning of the year to work with staff and to start off the year kind of together working together learning together um as you know that first day is our welcome back day there are other things that are already built into to that day personally as you know as the person who
082was planning professional development I liked having that day to frontload things no I get that I'm not saying lose that day either we' have 26th half the 27th you would have to add a DAT contractually to use election day then I'm going to table this and we'll talk about to negotiation with that's me there a lot there's a lot that happens to see what if we could get a day and take off to I feel like like maybe hey maybe seven seems like a lot if we can drop that down to five but we add a day full day of PD now we got two full days of PD plus five early release days plus the conferences everything else from a parental standpoint now you're only looking at five early releases plus conferences rather than
083S so can I just because we've talked about this for a while now I just want to clarify so are we worried about parents that's why we're to limit well I think I think it's schedules but I also think it's like that whole collaboration piece that we're constantly talking about and like there's only an hour and a half between the elementary stories to get that collaborative data and like all that like you know what I mean I just say if there if there's a way for us to potentially add a day a full day and take away two half days and I think that is a potentially better use of everybody's time it's getting and I don't I don't think it's and I don't think it's just parents when we're saying it that way either
084like I think ultimately keeping kids in school is a good thing like you know keeping kids there for an extra four hours where they belonged trying to learn in front of well educated teachers who who were doing it that's what we want you know so we're taking kids out to try to get PD but it's like a double neck down just it seems odd it seems odd it seems like a lot of days so and again yes there is the idea behind the families and everything else that makes it even trickier well you know if if we I don't see a way as this calendar is presented to make two half days full days and have another extra day for PD because we don't have that that wild card day for elections like for the
085national election that were typically closed you know so that's why I think this calendar as presented is for 2025 26 is the best we're going to get because every other day that we're not in session with school is holiday or something like that so we don't have that wild card election day to make that a full PD day and then take away two half days so that's why that's why I'm kind of this calendar as presented is you know not the best we can do but is the best with the options we have is there is no extra day to make a full day for PD and not have the kids at school well we don't have a contract for teachers in Fall 25 years either well but we know whenever that contract is up
086is is negotiated fairly that you unless we're looking to add a day on the teacher's contract we have 182 days as historically as the contract we're not a district that has 185 days or anything like that so that's why you know we're we're here with this I mean we can always say maybe we take one out and you get six and we move one into May and you know so so take away the February one move April into March and you know so you take one half day away and make it six that's enough for for the administration is that one of the suggestions for folks I I don't know I for me I have no skin in this game I'm just looking out for trying to hear everybody's opinions and concerns and trying to
087come up with a solution that's kind of all I'm trying to do here this is you can just say no what do we have an idea on what the cost would be to add it that no I like top if you guys are are divided and we can bring it back um it's it's up to you I don't know that I'm going to say anything to convince you either way so it really up to you you could have gone a while ago thank you so much for coming sorry it's just so hard because again there's so many determining factors and again as you feel back the UN would keep happening ask the chair you either call V if I'm kind of reading it see like maybe table it try try get best try to get
088a best plan here suggest it the constructions to the administration y because we'll be back here in a week or two if there is no instructions on how to at this so can I table and then options all right I'll have motion to table and have Administration look for further options on a 24 25 calendar 25 sorry sorry 25 26 Calendar want me read that I'll say that again I'll entertain a motion to table with the instructions to admin to review the calendar and come up with a better scenario for the 25 26 school year so Mo second all those in favor I all those all those oppon no no so that has is three to two sorry something next superintendent evaluation process overview all right so um as we did last year as well
089we tried to go through the evaluation process um prior to any change in the board with the upcoming um local elections so in your packet tonight um you have a couple different things uh the first is the indicator rubric which actually walks you through um each of the areas that superintendent are evaluated on underneath um the Massachusetts regulations uh the first standard is instructional leadership the next is management operations uh family and Community engagement and then professional culture um so this is a resource for you you really do not need to go through and complete the rubric um but it does give you a little bit of insight as to what each of those indicators means and um how you're ranking me in each of those areas um there is a small version of the
090rubric which kind of breaks it down in a little bit more of a simple manner um then you have a document which is like a fill um a blank form um ham also sent this to all of you electronically and this is where you would um actually complete your own individual up um evaluation of me so it is um customary for a school committee for each individual to complete this evaluation form into rank me um as you see fit there is an area for the goals um your packet also has a goals update which I'm not going to read to you this evening because you guys are all well educated um so you would be ranking me on my you know professional practice goal the student learning goal the district Improvement goals and then each
091standard as well um your chair is then responsible for combining um all of your feedback to me into one complete document um typically it's kind of like the average of you know all the rankings therefore and then you know selecting comments um that you may have included to put into the evaluation itself um I am the only staff member within the district that has a public evaluation um so I will defer to Nick on when he's going to need your documents from you so that he can do his work and then what we'll do at the April 16th meeting is we'll review the evaluation publicly and you guys will vote on my overall reading um and then that goes into um it gets reported to the Department of Education perfect um is there any timeline
092that we need to be completely done with this by state law or guidelines well if you want to vote on it on the 16th it would be for then um but it has to be done by June 30th I mean it should be done by June 30th and I think obviously from a doing this standpoint we move this dat up so the five of us who sat here all year but obviously so that's why it's a earlier uh any questions comments concerns do you want it electronically or do you want I will leave it up to you because I don't either way it's easy it doesn't matter to me um so you guys do it to me whenever um as long as I have we're going to vote on on April 16th I mean as
093long as I can get it by like April 11th does that work that gives me the weekend in a few days and make sure I compile them all take the average and be good to go again by April 11th that would be great um then obviously we can do that on the 16th at our meeting yes I know four of us have done it it's pretty easy kind of want you walk through it and see everything but my first was when you it awesome any other questions concerns good uh nine is moving on to discussion or vote on school choice right I thought this one this is going to be the long one today you guys Sor um all right so just to give you a little overview we currently have 231 students um enrolled
094as part of our school choice uh program uh this is actually down from last year I believe last year our number when I came to you with this recommendation was 247 um so as you can see our numbers are um there uh based on our current enrollment so you can see each grade level and school building and how many school choice students there are um after careful review of class size projections for the upcoming school year I am going to be recommending the following increases for school choice uh these projections allow for some flexibility in terms of all allocating any new Choice students across grade level sections without overwhelming the resources and materials that we have available and it also attempts to bring some Equity across schools where one has a higher grade level than
095the other um I also think it's important for us to realize that nor high school be graduating 17 um students that are considered school choice um up in the upcoming year um so this is a little bit different than I think we've done it in the last couple years um what I did for you is I looked at class sizes for next year and then I gave you the average class size for each grade level um in building so as you can see both JCS and lgn we are anticipated to have 18.6 as our average class size there in first grade um I think that's a great number and I don't want to touch it and so therefore I'm not recommending any any numbers there at JCS our average will be 21.4 where our um
096second grade at lgm will be 18 my recommendation would be four Choice spots in grade two at lgn this would allow one school choice student to go into each of the four classrooms that we are projecting for next year um and again would only move their average class size up to um 19 and it would still give us some flexibility if we have a move in of noring residents uh third grade at GCS is going to be 21 same as lgn um and I said we could take two students there again there are five sections at JCS there are three SE there will be three sections next year at lgn um so that again is not in every classroom it would still make our sections about 21 to 22 students um at grade four I
097am not recommending any increase at grade five I am not recommending any increase as well as grade six grade seven is our smallest cohort currently our class sizes there are looking to be about 20 students and that is spread across eight sections so we can take um up to 10 students there and again it will not really change that number we'll go to about 2122 two uh grade eight there are 23 across eight sections I'm recommending and no more than five same with grades nine and 10 no more than five um you'll also notice that I could not give you an average class size for the high school that's simply because it's it just fluctuates so much based on um student whatever Vinnie does the schedule every year um as well as you know foure
098classes versus electives it it's really hard to put a number on it um but those are the recommendations there um we also um as part of school choice regulations we we allow siblings to come in to keep families together um it's not just something that we do in Norton that's kind it's actually part of the regulations um and then you know our staff as usual so um happy to answer anything questions here and take questions from you on these recommendations so I have two questions one is the siblings and staff uh you know the these these two exceptions were not projecting those to be part of the 33 spots at this time those are kind of from and Beyond it could be a little higher with the condition of we we're helping out our current
099families and our Educators and N times at of 10 those are students coming into kindergarten um so I believe this year we I think we had nine um and I believe majority of siblings and then I think there was three staff members and I think one was one was both a sibling and a staff member and my my second question more I guess it's policy or procedure regarding it when a school choice applicant kiddo comes in like do they have the choice like for example JCS and LG how do we place them is it like so the second like Taun versus like Al because it's that side of town or is it just so we would only have spots available at lgm for grade two so if we had an interested family that was coming
100in for grade two they would have to go to L so typically we do it based on where they're coming from but once you know once the spots are gone they're gone fall to that like what happens ifone um what happens in because obviously we don't know who these students are once they kind of get here then we start realizing like okay this moment you know would we ever move a student who might be in lgn because we have different services at JCS for them um we have actually um so we had a a school choice family who was at the LG children and one of them actually their program so that one of the students moved over to any other questions concerns um just a random I don't know if this even applies but
101you know how when we have um students in our IEPs and we give them or we can build Med medic Med Medica Medicaid right um if you have a school choice student who is an IEP student do we build their Medicaid so we submitted all um all of our students we submit to Medica um I don't think that's this is Casey's job um so if we submit Christine Alex and I we we work together we submit all of our students for Medicaid um not putting in school choice or anything like that so we just put them all in I don't know if the state then looks at it and then parses it out that way um but we submit it all because there are students yeah okay and then that comes back to the general
102f corre correct we is many times back to I did that these kid don't want res they're not that's good we're paying for them to go to school and then their reimbursements are going back to the town yet we're the ones who are on the hook for so again we we probably need to do a little research about the Medicaid piece I don't know if it goes to the town where they reside or if it comes to us but um let us do a research on that but we do submit for the reimbursement regardless of their status and the school choice increment data that where we get majority of that those F not necessarily very little for Medicaid but it's really in that directed back to the school yeah and I remember last year's Lively
103discussion on this if this if kiddo has you know like OT PT we can build that by our back to their District correct correct so it it all goes into that um document that Christin M just talking about so you you go in and you say this child receives this service this is how many times whether it's per week or per cycle you allocate what the cycle is is it a 5 day cycle is a 7-Day cycle and then you say it is a onetoone service it's a small group service it is an inclusion service all of that data goes into the inant spreadsheet any other questions I mean I guess mine is is I think everyone knows how kind of feelable school choice huge support of school choice I hate that the state of
104Massachusetts hasn't changed the funding around it um it's $5,000 it's SP $5,000 probably trying to put a bill through that got denied so I don't see it changing anytime soon um and again I always just go back that like yeah you might be filling a seat here but by filling a seat we're adding the case we're adding the next student or adding two students or three students or whatever it may be to our classroom teachers you know so I just always don't know if at the end of the day you know by you know putting a freeze on school chice we'll call it you know and 17 kids walk out our door at $5,000 a whack where they can get like $885,000 numers now granted you might get some faculty staff you might get you
105know some siblings who come back and that numberers a little bit less but once that gets frozen for a year two three years yes you are going to hypothetically lose Revenue to a certain degree uh if it's even revenue and then your back in the same you're you're back in a spot where you're not losing $2 million right from the start because the kids who were here will stay here so I think last year by doing the seven through 10 we kind of froze you know the elementary school side of things and you know I like I said just My Thing from the state is that money is it's quite frankly a joke that we're only getting $5,000 I'd love to see where someone can be educated $5,000 discussion I so I have a question
106for special so correct me if I'm wrong but if we have kidos coming from outside of the district we're getting more than $5,000 yeah so that's what that school choice INR report is talking about I can I can say it for you if you'd like okay so that's not not a school choice so say say it wasn't school choice and say that we have Services here that another town cannot provide so that child needs to come to our district so we have have student which is a lot more $5,000 we have we have one agreement you gotta get up the camera can't pick you up and I don't want it to go I don't want go heyone is here sorry you want to repeat that question that way we can get it so if we
107have a kiddo out of District who needs to come to our district for services that we can provide because their District can not yes we our district gets more than $5,000 so so if it's a school choice student then we would use school choice and permit report we do have a student or two that we that we are technically the out of District placement for them so this town pays tuition for them um we were like like we like like we would do for our out of District student who sent out referral packets and things along those lines um so we do have I think one right now Christine correct yeah um we did have another District approach us last year um to potentially tuition into one of our programs if we didn't have room
108for them at the point at that time um so we were not able to do it we're more than happy to as long as we have room we're happy to do that do we have an idea of percentage wise how many school choice kids come in and end up meeting services how many school chice students require special education services um I havep the district so then so they weren't previously identified yes but but even that technically doesn't matter because we can't say no no you so how many students have we identified as meeting special education services since they've enrolled in the district as um I don't have that number now but we can easily find that and and ultimately whether they're receiving the special education Services we get extra money within that spent rep but
109yeah I don't I don't know off the top of my head we can easily check that down I'm fairly certain though that the percentage of school choice students that are on IEPs is very close to our percentage of students that are ignoring students that are on Lower it's lower it's lower okay I was say I feel like it's fairly close but if you can tell me it's lower that's interesting okay and how many students do we school choice out of n compared to in so we have 20 number 31 231 who come into n how many we know that we do we got this information not long ago because we were looking at our sending tuition money and I thought oh we sent that many kids um and it was a bigger number than I
110thought but I don't have it Christin may look at it for us if there's other questions while she's looking if I could definitely get that to you guys for time this is the biggest one I've never wrapped my head around why does Norton have 231 in the closest District to us whether Dart District location District anything else is 75 from Rockland why do we have we've been selling school choice really hard for the last 10 years which is great but other schools also done the same so why are we so much higher than everybody it's the quality of Education they're getting here that's what I've always said when it comes to school choice you're getting a better education than some of our surrounding towns that's just a fact and I've said this publicly many years
111I would put our district up against just about every town in the area that it's going to be a better off a better District fundamentally than some of the towns around us that that maybe don't have some of the resources we have you know some people living in the cities want that small town feel for their kids and you've seen it I remember when I was in Youth Sports those kids wanted to come and play sports here too because they didn't like that City mentality unfortunately the know the other aspect of that is Norton is kind of a pretty expensive community so if you can get a quality education and get your kid to that school that's how I've always felt the old school choices they're looking for more opportunities for their kids I think
112they get that here and it could be to just with the locations of those other communities that have not had as much access you know when we think about it Norton is you know it touches adaro and it touches tun which are both considered cities more urban more urban communities more urban school school communities um both great communities but um there is I think as Dean said looking for a more a small town field um we currently send out we Choice out 29 students so be sent out path 150,000 oh the virtual school okay so that includes the kids that go to the virtual school they get more money don't startor that they didn't hear that yeah that because those kids who go to Virtual School they get like 10,000s yeah which is it's completely
113back so and this is why I assume the going to be the long so virtual school gets $10,000 to have your kid actually go to school gets actually have a meeting schedule with representative howt next week to talk about chapter 7 if you want to join me I don't if you want me there [Music] um any other concerns questions here no anyone want to make a motion do you want have motion all right well i'mna my motion I'm going to entertain a motion to free school choice for the 25 26 year and bring in might not because if you are going to not continue with school choice then you need to have a public hearing so are you you do not want to not want add you don't add any that correct I the only
114I would like to keep the siblings enrolled obviously and then any staff members who could bring their kids here I don't want to have any more school choice we call General students coming into into District so what do we need to have a public hearing about and why is this the first time hearing of that oh so ultimately if we decid to free school choice I did not know that that was anywhere on your mind so um a public hearing is required if we're going to change our status from accepting school choice to not- accepting school choice that needs to occur if we do not accept school choice we are not able to accept our staff students as school choice either if school choice does not exist we cannot give staff that her unless it
115exists somewhere else and it does not exist anywhere else at this time we could make it exist somewhere else um but we would not get any money for them from the state because we are not a school choice district there are communities that have it in their contract and it's called like whether it's a perk of the contract or if it is um like a tuition waiver those exist um but unfortunately that is something that we could not do um and I iiz for not keeping you the heads up on on the public comment I didn't know this was an option can we say where a school choice Community allow one general student and still like is there a way around that you know what I'm saying I mean your numbers are the way around
116that so you know the numbers that I presented to you tonight I you know I thought were pretty reasonable in terms of you know these are the class sizes and this is the recommendation if you guys you know say we want to adjust this or we want to do something like that we can I don't know that in you could say we have one spot and be considered yeah I don't know if you could say we have one spot and be considered a district a school choice District or I don't know so you could say you know so I would like to make the motion to approve to approve the school choice number is as presented that would be my motion so all those in favor second a second we do this yeah do the
117motion I would like to make a motion to approve Choice MERS as presented tonight by Dr second now all those be favor i i two so that motions denied um so so now we have to well is there a verbal opposition because For the record we would have to have okay so all those sorry that's my fault so all those opposed please vote I okay then so I think with knowing kind of what happen and having a public hearing and everything else I don't know if there's something that we can actually vote on until we have more information then we're going to have to settle with public if that's the the spot we're going to go I don't really know so what other information is the committee looking for I said it last year and
118I will say it again until I have 231 students and who they are and what they do and what services they're getting and how much money they're bringing into us and how much money school choice is costing us because they're not free and it's not a full $2 million that we get in reimbursements so until I have that number I'm going to vote against school choice until the state of Massachusetts changes from $5,000 to x amount dollars whatever that may that's my personal opinion I don't know how the other two descending folks I understand your frustration Nick with the state I totally get that and I feel that with you but I and listen my kids are all done I I really are for your children I really do just how we have run the
119schools and and how school choice has helped us I just I I hope you guys get the information you look for and and make decisions because I I truly am terrified for your children I just think it's this is too many with like I don't know the behavior the so I guess again welome back to maybe we need to have a further discussion on this before we're voting down school choice completely because as of right now to me we're not allowing school choice at all well I mean I think that I'm just I I thought that was on the numbers these new ones I mean obviously to continue to allow families to come in of siblings yes and to continue to allow we're required to yes so yeah so like that that's still that's not
120you're not leaving per se like like that I think would continue and like obviously having the it an option for teachers to or staff members to bring your kids here I just think 10 more seventh graders five more eighth graders like that's that's a lot in the middle school middle school that age range that's a lot I think the elementary where our scores continue to not be great and to bring in students that have potentially more needs that take away from our own students that are here I just don't want to see I don't know and last year you know we did a modified version and it was seventh through 10th grade I'd be open to like considering I guess a ninth and 10th grade number um but I just think the Middle School m
121schools I wouldn't going to touch I agree and I'd like to see these numbers come down overall we need more room for our kidos who are moving into district and who are paying our taxes to come to our school um yeah I mean I think to not to tie this all together but tie the whole meeting together here you know we're talking about redistricting and and potentially adding and you know if we ever did go down the route of you know making LG or you know Early Childhood Center if you will then like you know adding more kids to the classroom is going to take up more and more space you know again I know most of these numbers are are small enough that you're going to see a growth in town whatever it may
122be but um I mean Dan just made a good point you know I don't know how the committee feels in terms of like is it a numbers thing in terms of you know the additional of of what you know dr's proposing is it something that people would entertain doing minimum you know coming up with whatever number if you didn't like the number of 10 in seventh grade and doing something that you feel better with four and have that conversation offline um because then I think maybe we do revisit it um but again I think my feelings have been pretty clear so I guess I'm kind of just looking for some guidance here would we be interested in keeping it status quo for the next year looking at just grade seven to 10 five spots each
123and then siblings I think it's all it's important gen to for the five of us to listen to your recommendations when it comes to things like this um you guys are the ones that live this day in and day out not us right like none of us are no you're in the high school still for year right so none you know none of us well except for Dan for a year you know we don't we don't know I knew last year right because my son was there so these are the things that I defer to you and your staff to tell us what we can handle I think um and I certainly understand the committee in wanting to you know be more cautious about numbers um from last year to this year our projections are
124already down about $770,000 of of choice funds from just the students that we have here because our our number has gone down um you know I I I thought the second grade one where you're looking at 18 versus 21 that's definitely a difference between one side of town to the other and you know making those numbers a little bit more equal that would be one student per class um if we wanted to get rid of the J the third grade numbers because we're like we pay 21 that's better um if we wanted to move seventh grade down to five and that might be more manageable for people um I worry about $2 million of our of our budget this year is coming from school choice and so we need to some sustain in some way
125shape or form some of that money because otherwise we're going to have you know it's not going to happen overnight as Nick said it's not going to happen all at once um but it will happen and it's it's unfortunate because we all made the decisions that we made at the time we we made them with the best information that we had and to keep teachers in front of kids and um it's scary to think about not having some of those things so if you guys are interested in looking at different numbers I'm more than happy to put that together for you you can I mean you guys could vote tonight based on adjusted numbers it's it's really up to you so can I just ask another question and this is going to be one of
126these things where you know we may all agree to disagree and I still care and like every single one of you so I just want to preface that because sometimes these things get a little bit heated and that's not how this is going but do you guys have a plan for the budget of we're going to have this money if we don't have school choice have you guys like is there something you guys know that maybe we don't I just don't think that I again we charar we spent $20,000 per people my kid again I did I've had this conversation with denz few years ago yeah our per pupil cost is $20,000 to get a kid in you know if you take our budget you know and do it over by how many kids we
127have school it's basically you know $17 a day for each kid to walk into that building that is our budget in town with $55,000 it's not enough and I don't think I I I get it we're looking at this as you know just again did quick math you know from 231 is $1.1 million not two right now I get it with the reimbursements and everything else or whatever is coming in you know from as far as an actual figure but for that much money how much taxing are we doing on our classroom teachers how much taxing are we doing on special Educators how much taxing are we doing on pupils and classrooms and in you know different classes in the high school and everything else so I don't know if 1.1 again we're not losing
128$1.1 million this first year we're losing 85 you know in that's 17 kids walking out none coming in if we did it that way you know so yes it will be a 12 year again that's a free freezer for 12 years but it would be a 12E decrease of $1.1 million is kind of how I'm looking at it but by your by that math if you're losing which is 85 next year then that's you know Progressive you know when Dr Ral is stating two million that's because we've been pretty responsible with our our school choice and using it for the first probably seven or eight years years it was onetime expenses and then the budget gets Tighter and Tighter so what my concern is if we start limiting this program is you you may see
129$85,000 you know next year but you have to comp on that year-over-year because if if you're a staunch of you know the the state's not paying enough so you don't maybe support it because it's and I'm not saying you don't support the program I'm saying you don't support the reimbursement number you have to think two or three or four years ahead where if no new you know kids are coming in you take 17 less this year you're not taking in the 33 recommended and then the Juniors and the sophomores and you know the Freshman you know you're compounding the issue by limiting you know the enrollment so you know I mean for me personally I I've been a proponent of this since it started I think it started my first year um and again we've
130responsible but you know to to your point we spend $20,000 per student but the the non-school choice students we we don't get a check from the state for those students for $55,000 you know what I'm saying like we get that money this is an addition to those kids in that classroom because we've had this discussion before we're not closing a classroom because based on these numbers you know we're not getting we're not being able to have a Savings of you know x amount and you know one of the things with with the seventh grade number yes it looks a little high but that's where staff Staffing was cut last year because that's the lowest grade we have you know enrollment wise because those sixth graders this year are now seventh graders so there is a
131little bit of availability because of a low number me personally and and I'm not going to speak for Sher but I think she thinks relatively the same way I don't have a problem with this the way it was proposed I don't believe Sher does if there's members that have a problem but just the numbers I would say you know have a discussion with Dr on and say my concern is this and then maybe RIT revisit this but I don't think in any way we should you know try and limit this program you know in in your scenario limit the program because of reimbursements it's this whole separate topic but um you know I just look at it as from from the back of the napkin we're losing 17 students and we're not gaining 33 students
132so we're losing money both both end so it's almost like you're losing you know what is that 50 so you're losing 50 students total because you're not allowing 303 in and you're losing 17 to graduation does that make not really but I give you a second so so so your $85,000 is now you know a little bit more because you're not having kids come in to supplement the 17 all I need is 17 to come back in to get to the 85 that's that's thing you're not allowing 33 spots yes so you're now losing 17 spots and now not allowing 33 and so you're down 50 spots tot for next year no I'm only down 17 still this number is this number could be this number could be 90 it doesn't matter really what that
133number is you know if we lose 17 and replace 17 not losing anything we're at this point we're not allowing 17 and because we just voted to not allow 33 spots correct so therefore you're losing 50 spots total because we never had we never had that money so we never really had you know what I'm saying like we never that money that money wasn't in our budget we're also assuming we're gonna get and again I think we would get 33 kids but we're also assuming we're going to get you know 10 sth graders we may not we don't know you know and that's that's why we always left no but but you are losing because you're not replacing the 17 that are gone and you're not improving 33 spots to come in I mean I
134I've set my piece on it my my I I if it's members that have an issue with the numers have that discussion I would like to see this come back up I would because you know if we're not going to allow 30 free spots then I to Dr O'Neal's argument then then we may not be a school choice District if we're not allowing spots so can I just ask another question because I really am trying to understand where you guys are coming from um I'm I'm trying to keep an open mind in here like everybody out so I've heard a couple of times tonight that test scores are down are we are we thinking that test scores are down because of the school choice kids that we're having in here are we thinking that our
135class sizes are too big because we're increasing but if class sizes are too big it could be because we have school choice kids coming in that's part of your concern we we're giving extra spots right so choice in we are I'm WR the highest school choice District 250 kids right 23 23 230 said so but if we don't have school choice kids coming in your thought is that it's not like we have any more students in Norton that would be coming in correct because enrollment is what it is so I guess what I'm asking that is because if it's a concern that school choice kids are taking up seats and test scores are going down is that something Jen that you can speak to you know as Educators to that and maybe the answer is
136no I don't know I'm just trying to I'm just trying to no sure understand and I think look I say it right now I do not think because school choice kids are coming in our test cours are coming town I know many of these families you know there's a lot of kids who are my kids ages who have school choice and who are great people great families and quite frankly great friends you know I think the issue is is you're not I just don't think the $1.1 million for two and again that's 231 Time 5 is actually a revenue Source I want to know how much are we paying out in whether it be teachers special Life Services XYZ you know of how much that's actually costing us now again back to denz and dance
137point Point well we're not going to cut it we're not going to cut this we're not going to cut that well that's because we've done that for 12 years now if you put a freeze on it and our kindergarten class which right now is our smallest one I believe in in out of all 13 grades if you will and all of a sudden Norm's enrollment starts bling down a little bit now there might be the ability to say hey let's get one two and three grades together let's make sure we you know our class ises can stay under 20 you know and again I don't you know from a from a teacher standpoint I do I don't I think classroom management and having 29 kids in a class to 20 kids in a class really
138depends on the teacher you know more than anything study suggest that as well the teachers kind of say differently they want you know they want fewer kids in their class you know so I feel like by adding more and adding more case loads you know we keep hearing about case loads from from our special Educators that they're overworked underpaid they're getting way too many kids they can't service La we're pulling you know Mrs Farley out of the JCS to go cover another class like we're Str we're putting more and more on it by saying well sorry but we're pulling in money that's my thing again I just don't I've never seen that money and that breakdown actually happen so that is my biggest thing as so is there a happy medium then for for kind
139of our division in the board right now for genu to pull this information together so that we have you know facts before so last year when we shared with you guys we took some sample students um and and shared all that with you and then we showed you I think we had six or seven students and I think one was a negative and the other five or six were all positives um we can do that and and I'll be honest it's going to take a lot of time for us to do that and if we had been asked for that information we would have tried to pull it together and if I knew that this is what like we were going to have nothing versus um you know something we can we can try to
140get that info together to you um I think you know Dan's point about things compounding so if we freeze school choice right now next year you lose 85,000 the year after that you lose 180 because you lose the 85 that you lost the year before because you didn't backfill any kids plus you lose the 95 you were supposed to lose the year before the year after that you lose 295 the year after La you lose 45,000 in that four years you lose close to a million dollar because you would have gotten that money for 4 years in a row and so I know it can't just be about the money but when you're late off 29 people last year has to be a little bit about the L um so if the committee would like
141this to we can table this until the 16th um I will be honest that I don't know that we can p all that data by the 16th we might need theid 1 May um meeting and um I needam Pam's gonna have to help me look at the policy because I know we updated the policy to have sooner dates this year than what we had in the past so we might need to take this vote on um by the 30th so um I will look at that and confirm that um and so it's up to you if we want to if you guys are comfortable saying let's do five five and five from grade seven to 10 like we did last year but that's not the vibe I'm getting so I kind so I don't know
142I mean I guess you know we definitely going to need more information one way or another so I don't think a vote right now is really necessary I think it would be smart to kind of have everybody think about it kind of get back if you have numbers and then again from admin standpoint I don't know how fast you're G be a to pull things together but you know well you know I guess and much like Sher not not a disrespect about you know to the other members that that voted in the negative is it I guess Nicks made it pretty clear what his issues are is yours just a numbers issue and you wanted it to like for example if you want that 10 to be a five is it like I just want
143to get to the root of the issue because if you know if it's the numbers that that Nick is and that's an undertaking or is it you know sorry the the reimbursement type of scenario versus just if you guys have a problem with the numbers like that's where I'm kind of like if you just wanted to be 10 to five then that's you know is that the and I'm not going to have you public you're not to to publicly tell me but I would say for you guys to maybe chat with Dr O'Neal offline one onone and say my issues are X Y and Z versus you know because and I'm not going to speak for you but if you don't want it to be 10 and you want it to be five then me
144I'm gonna look for that either way so I just I just would say you know if your concerns are what they are just kind of have those address privately and may visit this that's what I would say That's my kind of two cens I mean I know what yours aren there so everybody knows what ni Nick issues are unfortunately um well because it's it's been the delivered yeah someu there some truth to the state not not reimbursing I I 100% agree with that but we just I just have a different thought process but that's okay I think yeah I think what Dan just said is helpful I think you guys should chat with Jen um because as a board collectively we are trying to all learn from each other and and figure this out and
145navigate it so I think that would be helpful do you think the state looks at our high number of school choice kids and look views that as a reason why they're not giving us as much as other other districts no they can't do anything around that formula that has anything to do school joice students there's been no change there's nothing that they can do in that formula at all but it is important for us to know that every time our enrollment declines we also get less money in chapter 7 so and I believe it was 98 that school choice was instituted and it was that amount hasn't been changed yet and again to next point there was a bill that's failed I know there's a lot of discussion at the state level on Chapter 70
146but that's not not Choice based funding unfortunately and um you know I to as as I Techni Point that's that's a a tall order to get the state to to really look at this and and I don't want to see kids looking for opportunities have have to wait for the state of Massachusetts to make things right um so again that's that's kind of my my two cents to to the other members is maybe just have a one-onone discussion and and you whatever your your concerns might be just trying to address so I mean I I'm a big opponent of this I have been for for my time the committee so uh whatever is going to be presented to me and as much as I didn't like limiting it last year um it's it's never a
147money issue for me it's never a reimbursement issue for me it's an opportunity for these kiddos that are looking for something better that's how I've always looked at it so fair enough um all right so I guess we will I'll entertain a motion to table with the direction from admin to can we no you wouldn't be tling because the vote was in the negative so this this is now a closed item on the agenda if the committee has a oneon-one discussion with Dr O'Neal and and it's a MERS thing we already voted hold on hold on because I I understand we voted no to to the present the problem is you to have a public hearing that's so what we'll do is we'll schedule public hearing and we'll we'll go from there because ultimately we
148need to have a decision by May 1st um is there can we still bring this back up on April 16th like if these guys come to you and say this is what I was thinking I just need to know what additional information is needed yeah yeah so so for for Audrey and Justine if it and just with two sets if if yours is the issue of you only want to do 20 spots and then the just going to be put on a further agenda but if it's no against school choice adding any spots then it's a different policy and procedure of public hearing because we would no longer be a school choice and we would have to potentially check with with legal and the school choice policy if we can even allow staff or siblings
149in at that point I'm not POS I'm not sure how that reads so we need to vote by Mark by April 30th that's the last date that we can vote because we have to let the state know by May 1 I understand that but my my question for clarity is if we say no new school choice spots and we essentially then become a not a school choice District how does that impact potentially any staff or siblings siblings are allowed under the regulation as long their still Bings are here staff will not so we could not enroll any staff children as school choice unless they already have a sibling that are here how many staff kids do we have here right now um oh gosh off the top of my head I get it back to
150us yeah I don't I don't know off the top of my head so then would I guess from what you need from us in what direction would be and we don't have to do this now we can it's up to you okay yeah I mean I think yeah I think everyone kind of knows what I want but um okay and then as a perk of the contract from other districts how do the can we look into I guess that would be my big thing is it's like what are the legal R ramifications if you will by doing this what does the public hearing mean what does it mean for our staff how do other districts get around that as a perk in a contract how does that all kind of factor into the work so
151it would be in you could put it in the contract but you would not be collecting any any tuition for these students it it it would be you would not be bringing in any income so it would just be simply that we allow staff to register their children in their Community as a park of working as a norn educator this do we have is that open for all nor employees Choice yes I me it's open Fray one um so it would be like if you're a norn fire like anyone could that I would that would not be something we would put in our contract with teachers and pars all right I guess we can move on then any other good everyone's on the same page here perfect any other uh any other business not anticipated
152in 48 hours no no all good um motion to adour so Mo all those in favor second just it