001like to call order tonight's Charter Township of Oxford plan commission regular meeting Thursday March 22nd 202 aliance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands one nation under God indivisible with liy and justice for all thank you very much uh can we not the noted there is a quorum commissioner Austin is absent okay moving on to number four approval of tonight's agenda motion to Second none all in favor allos see none uh motion carries uh number five conflict of interest X parte contact does anybody have anything they need to discuss bring all right number six uh approval of the minutes Planning Commission regular meeting March 13 2025 motion to approve minutes okay we have a motion we have a second any discussion all in favor I
002opposed motion carries as well um number seven public comments for items not scheduled for public hearing or on this agenda good evening Evelyn Archer petski 750 Lakes Edge Drive and I think I'm a year late and a dollar short um because um my comments probably are you know a moot point but anyway um I'll make them anyway um in terms of residential I'm just hoping that um the master plan has um maybe a little bit lesser emphasis on apartments and condos and more on single family residences um I'm concerned about density and hoping that there's uh no reduction in lot sizes and uh Green Space I mean that's a big one I'm just really hoping that the plan calls for lots of Green Space um in terms of commercial and Industrial in puds uh the
003Green Space uh would be great along the main roads and um so that it it kind of shields the buildings somewhat all along the the frontages and um you know I'm really concerned about traffic in Oxford um I live at the M24 and drainer intersection and uh so the lighting there now uh traffic um flow is better but uh it's it's pretty crazy and I'm concerned about with the new PUD um you know being installed that it's going to be even worse um concerned about uh quality of uh materials and workmanship and the types of development that we have over quantity um I'm thinking more like the Nino salvagio hopefully over the drive-throughs and um just one final note about M24 and drainer um it's really a shame how it looks blighted with the uh
004with Right Aid going out and the gas station out um so so um property values obviously hope that uh you know our existing values hold um hoping that taxes certain taxes will go down probably not our property taxes which are Skyhigh but um um anyway those were my my main um issues thanks for listening and thank you for what you do giving up your Thursdays and more and uh we put our trust in you and uh thank you thank you see none we'll move on to number eight Commissioners comments discuss all right number nine unfinished business master plan so good evening Aqua call our Associates um we are the planning consultants for the township uh so one of the items on the agenda this evening is uh the master plan so P it's uh it's
005been the work in progress for over a year and we are at the step this evening where we provided a cover memo um as it relates to some of the last minute um adjustments and changes that were made uh that memo is in your packet this evening um but really Where We Are Tonight is the Planning Commission is in a position to take a vote to recommend the master plan to the Township Board and so the process from there would be is that if the Planning Commission votes this evening to send the master plan to the Township Board the Township Board would then review that plan at their April meeting and they would do one of two actions they would either vote to then send it off to neighboring communities and other other interested third
006parties for a statutory 63 day review period um it's kind of a it's kind of a it kind of Wis a waiting period if that's what it does if if that's the way it's voted for the 63 days we kind of sit back and wait and see if any comments come in um if those comments come in and they are substantial or or to be considered then the book can kind of open up again on the planning or on the master plan and whether or not there's any further revisions that are needed um but from that standpoint if there aren't then the Planning Commission would hold the public hearing uh and that that public hearing would vote to recommend approval or potentially Den out of the Township Board and then the Township Board would then
007vote after that to officially adopt the plan the Township board at April's meeting uh should you send it to them next month uh they could also provide any feedback comments concerns and vote to send it back back to the Planning Commission with those comments and concerns and then we can kind of work through work through what those are and revise the uh the master plan accordingly if the Planning Commission desires to do so so kind of with that that's what's in front of you this evening um I'm happy to answer any questions um but that's kind of where we are thank you very much yes okay and that that's that's to send it to the Township board for their review and consideration the public hearing that you'll hold is once we get past the 63-day
008period um and the master plan you know based on any feedback that you may have heard heard is kind of in a position where you're you're comfortable holding that public hearing anybody so you send this if we vote tonight to send that to the board when would they review and then vote on it themselves uh the April 9th meeting I want to say okay so roughly two weeks correct thank you yes sure some of the um spacing errors or spacing things um what do you think the next step is to clean some of that up it's it's in it's a procedural like I said the the program that we use uh in um in design I don't know it enough to speak technically about it but all of those things can you know can be
009nip talked and taken care of do you want feedback on that from from us or no I mean I based I seen something do you want me to note it and somehow convey that yeah I mean that those types of things would not stop it from going to the board so anything that you have you are more than welcome to email over um you know pages of note or just general concerns and and we can we can scroll through it get those taken care of small items yeah yeah no worries thank you for tonight it's just yeah give me a moment see as you can as you know it's a rather large document so give me a second page 11 of the plan itself yes okay at the bottom the rightner talks about date for
010a public hearing and it says's you know you're going to put in there we to be determined it's kind of based on the steps I outlined this evening is we've got a few more Hoops to jump through before we set a public hearing um April May June the soonest you'd be looking at a public hearing is July or August um but that's upending if you send it to the board tonight and you what the board decides to do at that point kind of Alters the timeline Mr chair um this draft is it available where or where is it available for the public to review right now now and say you know whenever two months from now so I mean it's a public document um so it being included as part of the agenda um people
011can request it from township hall um we haven't necessarily posted it yet only because it is a draft version that hasn't that um all Township officials have not been able to review and comment on yet um but once it once it's in the position to go to the the 63-day review period then we would we would work with the township to post it online or whatever you know whatever means were were needed to distribute it okay thank yep Township Bo all right so motion to recommend and send the master plan draft to the Township board for consideration at motion we have a second any discussion can we get aoll call Lo yes Lanken ship yes dur yes Turner yes Wagner yes Bailey yes motion passed thank you great well thank you very much thank you
012too yeah thank you guys it's um we're not there yet but uh it feels good to be to this point and I appreciate all the help that everyone's giv us on this project so we're we're getting there thank you thank you all right moving on to number 10 new business Planning Commission training conducted by car Associates and okay so for this evening we've kind of talked about it we've got some some fresh sets of eyes on the Planning Commission and even if everybody here had you know 10e time we we' like to do trainings once a year or kind of as needed with our clients um we typically partner with the clients legal team to kind of go over all the the ins and outs and ups and downs of being on a Planning Commission
013and what you can do what you can't do all that kind of fun stuff so given that we've got a lot of new faces we thought that that uh this evening would be a good opportunity to do that um joined by joined by me or joined with me tonight is um the Kelly Law Firm um Morgan and my apologies the last name changed yes it's new Martin Morgan Martin from the Kelly firm and then from our firm Ben Carlile he's the president of organization he and I will be doing a part of C.W um and he'll be up here constantly to correct me on all the things I get wrong so uh yeah um but so yeah for tonight uh we'll we'll conduct a training um we try there is a lot of material to
014go over uh we kind of acknowledge that up front um you know we kind of try to keep these trainings to be about an hour long but you know ask whatever questions you have we'll kind of go as far as the appetite can handle we don't want to rush these things but we also don't want to force feed a lot of material and if we don't get through everything this evening I'm more than happy to finish it up at a subsequent meeting um so like I said we'll keep cognizant of the time but uh we'll work on questions and uh kind of go from there Kelly FM's going to start off uh and then we will step to do our part good evening Commissioners as Mato stated my name is Morgan Martin I work for
015the Kelly firm um and we are your legal counsel here at the township I'm going to keep this training as short and sweet as possible most of this stuff is stuff that you guys already know if you have any questions at any time feel free to interrupt me sometimes it's easier just to ask questions while the subject is up that way you don't forget about it later at the end I'll also have time for questions our portion of this presentation is probably the easiest so I'm going to keep it as short as possible um but do not hesitate to interrupt me if you have questions the first thing that we're going to start with is why does procedure matter at a public Hearing in any sort of public meeting procedure is important because one we
016want to keep things professional but two we want to make sure all of our tions are enforceable so if we don't follow proper procedure that puts us as a commission at risk of being overturned if the matter is to go before the court we want to avoid that at all costs so the best way to do that is to do everything as cleanly as possible to keep it simple I have several tips that we'll go over today that will keep things efficient and also keep our meetings clean the most important thing is always that everything should go through the chair the chair is the one that controls the meeting the chair is the one that controls the flow you guys have this down I just saw it 5 seconds ago if someone wants to say
017something you ask the chair the chair will give you the floor um when the chair recognized is a member who is entitled to speak it's very important because it keeps things professional and it keeps people from going back and forth um and really it keeps one member from um we'll say dominating the conversation that's what we don't want to do everyone is here because everyone has a a position of um knowledge on these matters especially as a Planning Commission you guys are all here because you know what you're talking about and we want to make sure that all of those different backgrounds have the opportunity to contribute to the discussion um and that is why it's important for the chair to control the meeting the second thing is that we should follow our bylaws bylaws
018are the most important if you guys can review them and become familiar with them that's very very helpful if your bylaws don't address the situation that's when you should defer to Robert's rules our bylaws do specifically reference Robert's Rules so the bylaws are seven pages long they're not that long they can't address every single possible situation that's why we refer to Robert's rules that being said the Roberts rules like 150 pages long and they were written back in the 1800s it's not necessarily how we talk now so if you do your best to try and follow those rules that's perfect you're not always going to get it right if you have a question about procedure defer to legal councel and will be able to answer those questions for you or Matteo he should be able
019to answer those questions for you as well if he can't answer it he'll give you good advice on how to address it to the best of his knowledge the most important thing is motions motions are the only things that are enforceable in your meetings if you want to ask add a condition to any sort of approval that you give you got to make sure it's in a motion if it's in deliberation after a motion it's not enforceable so make sure your emotions are clear and if during deliberation the general consensus of the board is that we want to add a condition to something amend the motion or have the individual that first moved withdraw that motion the second will then agree to withdraw do a different motion make sure sure all conditions that you want
020to be enforceable are in the motion in order to make motions clear and I'll go into this a little bit more in a second it's always helpful if if there's especially if there's significant discussion or deliberation after a motion is first stated that the chair repeats it if you can't remember the exact language of the motion that is what we have our uh what is it called thank you our secretary here for can repeat the motion and it can make sure everyone knows what they're voting on before you vote that's the most important thing um like I said you want to avoid any back and forth you want to avoid any appearance of impropriety you don't want this to be two members going back and forth and arguing with each other it's never good that's
021why the chair should control if two people are starting to devolve and a third person wants to speak always defer to the third person a third person always gets the opportunity to speak if a first or second person has already spoken once make sure you give equal time to everyone if possible um with regard to public comment or public hearing don't respond while people are talking make sure you save your responses until after the comment is done that's easier said than done uh because you guys get direct questions if you get a direct question the appropriate response is to say we will answer any questions at the conclusion a public comment and then let them continue you'll probably have to say that hundreds of times on your tenure at Planning Commission but it's much better
022than responding to one resident and not responding to another Resident which basically amounts to treating people unfairly which is what you're trying to avoid with regard to public comment there's not a lot you can do to limit public comment the two main things you can do are limit the amount of time people are entitled to speak and that has to be in your bylaws and it has to be equal for every single person if it's 2 minutes it's 2 minutes for everyone if it's three minutes is three minutes for everyone you can't let someone speak for five minutes and one speak for one minute you can also require that people identify themselves at the beginning of public comment you cannot require that they identify themselves to sit in on a meeting now so you can
023have a sign in sheet but you can't stop people from attending a meeting if they don't sign in a question absolutely um going back to public asking questions you me did you mention that we could address those questions at the end yes that's how I recommend you handle it you don't have to you're not obligated but if someone asks a question like when is this going to go before the Board of Trustees that's an answer that you have the appropriate way to handle that is to wait until public comment is completely closed and then you can answer that question usually I recommend that if you feel so strongly about it you can take notes during public comments so you can respond to each question at the conclusion you're not obligated to though it's not a
024question and answer and you're not required to respond to any questions that happen at public comment okay okay a question absolutely so if can you address them back though and say okay slow down I'm taking notes to address your question later do that yep absolutely and it might be better for the chair to do that um or what do you then ask the chair to ask exactly you should it's always better to direct all comments and all communication through the chair it just looks more professional um and it's more appropriate than you responding directly to a resident um if things get a little Rowdy which sometimes does happen um I do recommend that the chair interrupt and remind people of decorum um and if someone feels that things are getting inappropriate you can direct the
025chair to do that um you are entitled to ask for uh decorum in the in the chamber and you don't necessarily have to direct that to the chair if you believe that things are getting a little bit out of hand you can absolutely address that and state that on the record do you guys have any more questions about public comment right now okay as far as public comic goes you can't stop people from talking about whatever they want to talk about this is public comment specific we're going to talk about public hearings in a second which are a little bit different but with regard to public comment you can't limit the subject or issues other than saying public comment is different than a public hearing and public comment on non-agenda items must be on non-agenda
026items you can't make a bunch of rules that people have to follow before they get to speak you can't other than limiting the time limit and you can't prevent someone from talking about closed session items or confidential items my recommendation especially if you are concerned about something that someone is saying is just try not to react at all because the more you guys as a body react to a comment that a person is saying the more everyone else realizes that that might be a hot button issue so it's easier said than done I I've been there before but if you can keep your features as neutral as possible not roll your eyes sigh shake your head whatever it is that generally in my experience makes it so that people don't recognize that this is a
027big deal versus if you react strongly can I ask a question absolutely um I keep UND deferring to Cory here because I'm trying to behave myself I just complimented you on the way you do it I know and then I immediately assured the chair from different meetings kind of running from my head right now so if there's a if someone from the um the public is commenting um and they're under three minutes and they're asking questions like in the middle of it they ask a question and they stare at us like but we have to have to be stoic right and I recommend in that situation the chair says we will answer any questions at the conclusion of public comment okay okay it's so hard though I know it is but if you just keep
028reiterating we'll we'll answer your questions at the conclusion eventually they will stop but it is really uncomfortable I completely agree and then when someone from the public approaches the podium I think in the past and I thought I read in the notes that they don't have to disclose their address but then I think we do ask for that at times what what is which one is it you can ask for it you can ask that they identify themselves you can't require them to provide their address as a condition of speaking during public comment you can require that they identify themselves so you can ask them to do it if they declin to provide their address they're entitled to do that and still continue with public comment if they don't their not required exactly right exactly
029right any other questions before I move on then they're then that is a problem you can tell them that they're required to identify themselves to get public comment as far as the difference between a public hearing and a public comment this is really important for you guys on planning commissioner it's not so important for some of our other boards but for you guys it is you see a lot of public hearings public hearings are different than public comment in that specifically they are limited to one matter so if someone tries to say discuss the master plan when we're talking about uh a special land use application you can stop them from doing that during a public hearing that's not something you can do in public comment but in public hearing you can public hearing are
030required by law for certain types of requests uh you guys know what those are I'd be happy to address them if you want me to but I know you're familiar with them that's what you guys do all the time um during a public hearing your whole job is to listen to people and take their opinion and use it to inform your decision so that is when you're required to you don't have to agree with them but you are required to listen to them and to use that opinion in your final decision uh public comment you don't necessarily have to do any of that that's people's time to speak and it's people's time to uh have a transparent discussion with their elected officials and their appointed officials that's a little bit different than a public hearing
031which is required by law specifically to obtain an opinion do you guys have any questions about that difference yeah quick question how questions brought up during a public hearing same thing you should still wait until the end mhm absolutely motions motions are always the biggest deal especially for you guys at Planning Commission the best way to do it is to State a motion have one party State a motion another member second the motion then you have deliberation time then the chair should restate the motion and everyone should vote then you announce the results and I know with you guys in Planning Commission here a lot of the times Cheryl will do that that's fine that's absolutely fine as long as everyone knows what they're voting on and as long as the results are apparent totally
032fine but it's better to make sure that you guys know exactly what you're voting on before you vote on it than to be a little bit confused um I will say especially when motions are amended they can get kind of confusing if that is the case then you can defer to the secretary to repeat it or you can defer to either Mato or legal counsel usually they'll have a pretty good idea of what the intent of the motion is which is the most important part and they'll be able to repeat that or reiterate that or even suggest an amendment if there's something that's appropriate to amend never hesitate to get your Consultants involved when you want to make sure that you guys are clear because the Motions are the only thing that that matters you
033guys can talk for two and a half hours the only thing that's ever going to matter is what happens in those motions so make sure that they're clear make sure the intent is clear and if you ever have any questions ask them amending emotion is when things get confusing it happens all the time though someone says a motion you guys deliberate you say actually we need to add X Y and Z to this motion or actually I don't think that's the appropriate motion there are two main ways to do it the first one is someone makes a motion to amend and that motion is seconded and then you guys vote on the motion to amend before voting on the amended motion the second way is when the person who initially moved moves to amend and
034the person who second it agrees then you can just vote on the amended motion this gets confusing it gets confusing every single time if you guys are confused on what you're voting on ask that's the easiest way to handle it so ask to repeat the motion ask to repeat the motion if you don't understand what happened during the motion say chair I'm not really sure what we're voting on or can you repeat the motion can you explain exactly what we're supposed to be voting on whatever it is just ask it's always better to know that's after yes or before the vote really anytime before the vote is a time to ask a question deliberation is super important it is reflective did generally in our meeting minutes but deliberation is not what's enforcable if anything gets
035taken up to the Circuit Court so even though deliberation is important and it is part of what you guys are here to do if there is something that's in deliberation that you think is important to be noted in a motion that motion should be amended that being said there are lots of rules on how motions are supposed to happen for the most part you guys are not going to get reversed on appeal if the intent of the motion is clear so even if the motion itself is a little murky as long as it's clear what you guys intended to do then you're fine on appeal but things like conditions especially conditions of a site plan or of a special land use approval something like that those should be in the motion if you want them
036to be enforcable in the future that's my number one thing that I always say to my planning commissions make sure conditions are in your motion if they're not then they're not enforceable question yes how do you end up lots of ways so it's not as common for you guys as it is for like a zba but the most often time I see a Planning Commission in a circuit court is if say you guys approved a site plan with conditions and the applicant doesn't follow those conditions and you want to enforce the conditions that's one way um you guys are very good about this unlike some of my other communities in that every single approval that you do you have development agreements which makes things so much easier uh that puts everything that you have to
037do in a contract and those contracts are much more enforcable and clear than emotions ever going to be so for you guys it doesn't happen that often but most of the time what I see it within my other communities is we approved something that approval had conditions the applicant didn't do what they were supposed to do so now we're enforced saying you guys honestly I don't remember the last time we've had any issues with you guys so don't stress about it just I want to be the first to make that happen yes so you'll be fine the contract that you write is that does some of that language come out of the planning commission's motions yeah yes y exactly but but it's in reference to whatever we approved at the meeting with the conditions yeah
038so specifically the development agreement both sites are zoning ordinance and requires that the applicant follow all the conditions that they're required to under you guys's whatever you guys's motion is you guys are also very fortunate that you have Carl Wartman who for the most part when you and I mean all your engineers and your other Consultants when they do all their reviews they give you very clear conditions that you guys then Implement into your emotions I don't see that that often in my other communities so I'm not as worried about your emotions you guys have them right now compliment them as well apprciate a good they deserve it they're working hard well for the short time I've been here it's been very clear yes so it's all they know what they're doing and they're doing
039it well we're going to go very briefly into the open meetings act it's super boring stuff I'll keep it quick you guys are required to follow the open meetings act specifically a meeting is subject to the open meetings act if a quorum of a public body you guys and a quorum according to your bylaws is a majority so if a majority of your commission meets in one place and is deliberating towards or rendering a decision on something on which a vote of the public body is required what that means is if four of you are at a bar on a Friday as long as you're not talking about Planning Commission stuff that's fine that's not a vot violation of the open meetings act if four of you guys meet and you're talking about the site
040plan that is coming before you next week that's a problem that's a violation of the open meetings Act most of the time you guys know that so it really doesn't become an issue the only time it really becomes an issue is if someone sends an email and that email has everyone on the Planning Commission on it and people start responding to each other don't respond to those emails because even if you're not physically in the same place being on a virtual meeting like an email chain is still a violation of those op meeting act open meetings act my recommendation usually is if you guys get an email on a topic that's coming before the Planning Commission and you have a question about it instead of replying all to that email reply specifically to the administration
041ask your question they will obtain the answer and then they will circulate it to the entire Planning Commission that way there's no deliberation that's happening outside of the open meeting and you still get your questions answered I mean you guys are working really hard you're doing everything that you're supposed to be doing and part of that is preparation you want to make sure that you know what you're talking about before you make a decision so you do have to have the opportunity to ask those questions by you don't want to violate the open meeting act when you do it Morgan yes um one thing which I've noticed um that happens sometimes and I just want to caution you that before a meeting and right after a meeting is over yes y'all can't stand around and
042talk about the what was before you or what is going to be before you at that meeting because that's a violation too yes that's a very good point you can talk about it once the meeting is called the order so quick question yes send a an email and you reply to all as long as nobody resp to that you hav't VI if any member of the Planning Commission is responding to an email on which the entire Planning Commission is on that chain and is deliberating towards something that's going to come before you so you're asking a question or you're giving an opinion whatever it is that is a viol vition of the open meetings act so my recommendation is if you have a question or if you have a comment to the administration you can
043direct that directly to the towards the administration and they can respond the administration is allowed to respond to all of you and provide information that you guys need but you guys should not reply all to any of those emails it's just a dangerous situation um for the most part it's not it's not usually a violation because you're not really deliberating it's just not worth it right yes M it's exactly right understand exactly at what point on violation I guess yeah go ahead how do we know who the members of the administration are they direct questions too it's a great question um my guess is Matteo do you know who specifically they should yes I mean like there's elements as it relates to to planning or or things of that nature like you can always start
044with the building department you know with Cheryl or Tim um and they can kind of you know once that question hits them they can kind of figure out who is is this a Jim Sharp engineering is this a Carl Wartman you know is this a Kelly firm yep and they can kind of direct from there to get you the answer that you need and if you turn it over to us you know because we know the rules you know we can operate in a manner that's not going to put in you know any kind of question about violating over meetings Acts or communication or things like that so how does the response come without violating it as well because are they restating the question when you get the so like if somebody on this commission
045asks a question via email to the administration they go they get the answer then they disseminate to the Planning Commission the information that was obtained yep how will that information come will it just be it can be an email to the entire Planning Commission because the administration providing you with information is not a violation of the open meetings act what is a violation of the open meetings Act is any of you guys deliberating with a quorum of the rest of the Planning Commission so if any of you guys respond then you're in trouble Administration is not in trouble so then it would come back as a question was asked here's the information exactly exactly not discussion di it's just not worth the risk just wanted you're not doing anything wrong exactly just want to make
046sure I don't do anything incorrectly understood do you have a question would it be inappropriate to respond to all to say I won't be able to attend the future meeting on X date no that's fine that's not a deliberation it's not okay just want to nope that's not a problem at all um so question so in the event there is a violation violation what's the REM great question for the most part it's really not a big deal it just looks bad yeah just delete Thea I mean you could the the township could get sued for viol violating the open meetings act but if it's just one email a judge is probably going to say that was a violation of the open meeting ex act you shouldn't have done that if it's I mean continual and
047it's clearly pervasive within the township then that's when it becomes a problem it's just not worth it um even for frankly the township to have to defend a lawsuit basically so the next next thing that we take really seriously especially with you guys at Planning Commission is X parte contacts for some reason applicants probably because you guys are all fixtures within the community right and you know what you're talking about everyone knows you're on Planning Commission they know who you are so for some reason applicants love to reach out to you guys outside of Planning Commission if that happens that's technically an out an exp parte contact UM it's found upon you're not supposed to have any Communications with an applicant outside of a meeting it's technically a violation of the open meetings act if
048that happens my recommendation is you explain to whoever is contacting you that that's inappropriate and whatever information that you learned from that discussion you declare at the open meeting especially if it's going to to sway your opinion one way or another that way it's no longer an exper take contact because everyone on the commission knows about it still still not good right but you didn't initiate it definitely don't initiate it don't reach out to any applicants but if they reach out to you it does happen um you're not supposed to respond so just tell them that that behavior is inappropriate and then declare it at the open meeting does anyone have questions about any of that okay I'm gonna go through this really quick because you guys do not go into a close session very
049often part of open meetings uh are closed sessions so there are reasons that you can exclude the public for the most part for you guys that's either going to be well really it's only going to be one thing and that's going to be to discuss a confidential legal opinion with your attorney if that's the case we give you a confidential legal opinion you move to enter close session we have a little discussion without the public then you move to re-enter Open Session uh and then we're done anything that's discussed and closed session will be in separate close session minutes it will not be reflected in the meeting minutes but for the most part you guys don't have to worry about that close sessions are few and far between in a Planning Commission um in the
050regular board meetings a lot of the time we do that to discuss litigation strategy or for the sale of real estate or disciplinary actions for employees none of that stuff applies to you guys so frankly I don't even think we're going to need to worry about it big things about closed session has to be in the course of an open session you have to move to go into Clos session it's a two-thirds vote in order to authorize going into Clos session once you're down the closed session you have to move to come out open or come back into Open Session another big thing and we kind of touched on this earlier is you should not be texting or emailing especially other members of the Planning Commission during an open session if you guys are on
051a little text chain with four other members is of the Planning Commission and you're chatting about the meeting on a text during the meeting that's an impermissible closed session and you can get in trouble for that my recommendation because more importantly your personal phones can be subject to Foya is it's always better to avoid texting or emailing during a meeting technically anything that is on your personal phone is not Township related is not subject to Foya so if your wife texts you and says Johnny fell off his bike I think he broke his arm we got to go to the hospital of course you can answer that text just looks bad to the public if you're texting during a meeting and then they wonder what you're talking about so it's always best to avoid it
052but of course there are emergency situations and if you have to answer a text message you have to answer a text message that is all I have do you guys have any questions thank you for listening to me talk you're like 30 minutes straight I'm going to defer to Carl W all right so let me get back to our portion here so as I'm scrolling through this um thank you Morgan uh we work with the Kelly firm uh in a lot of different communities and uh we've worked really well with them as a team and I appreciate all the support they give us here at the township um there's definitely questions that just one way or the other have to make their way to them and they've always been very timely and and you know
053clear at their responses and kind of guiding us onto the next steps so as always I've always appreciated that so thank you okay so tonight um as part of the Carman portion of the training we're going to look at roles and responsibilities making effective decisions and findings and risk management um some of the stuff that we're going to cover Mor going went over in more than enough detail uh I'm going to take a look at roles and responsibilities and risk management and then we'll leave the scraps for Ben here with making effective decisions so for rules on responsibilities um the big thing here is that we don't we don't make these decisions in a vacuum you guys aren't on an island um you know these this was all set up uh under law as a
054checks and balances type of system so you have the legislative body which is your Township Bo you have planning commissions you have board of's owning board of appeals you have administrative staff and no one entity has sole control of review and approval the there are there are minor amendments that people can ask for that we have the administrative ability to approve but they are very they're just that they're very minor otherwise it it comes through us or it starts with us and then it goes to plan commission or goes to zba or Township board or any combination thereof depending on the project and depending on the um on the issue so again it's really more less just to say that you're not it's not necessarily meant to be a sole body decision so when we
055look at that your legislative body are responsible for appointments to the plan commission you all here because you were appointed by the board uh the legislative body is the uh the final approval for adopting a proposed zoning Amendment um a text Amendment or a map Amendment which is a rezoning uh depending on the way that your bylaws are set up uh your legislative body can review site plans and be a deciding factor in those um you guys do not send a lot of things up to the Township Board although as Morgan was discussing earlier the development agreements that come out of site plan approvals those do goad to the Township board for review and approval uh the Township Board assesses budget and Personnel they kind of allocate the resources necessary for us to do our
056jobs um the master plan the legislative body can at the beginning of the master plan process elect to be the approving body um in this instance the Township board has elected to do so so that kind of is their r at uh at the master plan level uh and then we have other policy decisions as well Planning Commission so the master plan stuff just kind of I said that the legislative body can be the final approval but regardless of whether or not that happens whether it's the Planning Commission or the legislative body Planning Commission does the heavy lifting I don't you don't need to tell anybody here that you know you've been going through it yourselves um it's a very important and can be an arduous task at times but uh the Planning Commission does
057a a lot of heavy lifting in Meer planning zoning ordinance uh your position is that you review any kind of text or map Amendment proposals and you make recommendations uh site plans uh you guys have preliminary and final site plans you see special land uses um kind of all that fun stuff we resing B repeals so that's where folks go if the matter requires something kind of beyond what is allowed in the zoning ordinance as a Township you can only do dimensional variances so someone can only ask for 10 feet of this or two feet less of that or certain feets of height cities can do use variances but townships cannot so your Zing Riv appeals is pretty much to look at the dimensional requirements um or variances that are being requested there also where
058appeals end up so even though your zoning is 600 Pages it actually cannot contemplate every single thing that could come up and so sometimes at an administrative level and even passed on to the Planning Commission level there are interpretations we have to make with the ordinance as to what was the intent of this how are we interpreting what's coming up um if someone disagrees with that interpretation you know recommended by your staff and decided upon by the Planning Commission they can take that to the zoning board of appeals zoning board the zoning board of appeals then makes their decision if the individual or the organization or the applicant disagrees with at that point the next stop is Court um and they can also kind of be assigned other duties as well uh and they're a
059good resource sometimes for what isn't working if too many things are going to if the same thing is going to your zba over and over again it's time to look at your zoning ordinance and see is this something we can fix question sure tell you if someone asked for a variant say for a 100 foot buffer would there be opportunity for us to I mean obviously it's a it could be a Yer or no but could we if it's dimensional could we say well how about 50 ft can you say it well the Planning Commission as a Planning Commission could we if they're asking for could that be a condition P not maybe not a condition but an amendment to the the the um the motion to vote on a topic asking for a full
060it it depends on the way your ordinance it it depends on the kind of application you're looking at we'll give it some discretionary decisions that you get to make um and or the way your ordinance is written so like we you guys know like you have waiver abilities when it comes to your Landscaping requirements so someone might your the requirement might be 100 pantries they're asking to do 80 they've provided you with a reason why you can provide that waiver but if the waiver is not in the ordinance and it's not a it's not an application that has a discretionary element to it you would not be able to Grant you know a variance is the wrong word you would not be able to grant them to be able to move forward if they didn't
061meet that standard does that answer your question yeah put the buildingin the OT set your could be you have to go before theba gred so like we had a PUD though that didn't go to P was our vote and there was conditions based on I've got some P stuff a few slides down okay yeah I think I think we'll get to I think we'll get to the answer um so statutory Authority there's a lot of there's a lot of legal back and forth with what we do and how we do it but the two big ones in the planning world are the planning enabling Act and the zoning enabling act these are the two pieces of legislation that Empower municipalities to establish planning commissions to work on Master plans to establish zoning ordinances you know
062for the health safety and Welfare of the community um it's really kind of what we lean we lean on to guide you best on what you can do and what you're authorized to do and what we're charged with um so on and so forth other statory considerations are federal and state laws um so there are there are federal and state laws out there that kind of dictate at a local level what you can and can't do as it relates to certain uses they don't necessarily they don't necessarily block your ability to review those things to consider those things but they definitely establish the manner in which they're to be reviewed and and judged or or the decision to be made upon so we just went through this with the renewable energy ordinance uh that we
063worked on as it related to uh some laws that the state passed a year ago where they've basically said that if if certain renewable energy systems are of a certain size this is the way you will review them and this is the way you will approve or deny them uh so we have to keep you know we have to keep tabs and this is this is true for gravel mining this is true for daycare facilities I mean there's there's certain things that laws supersede your local control doesn't stop your ability to review them but it offers very strict guidelines on how they're to be considered case law again you know things come up there there's know two instances of the world that are the same and sometimes they end in court so we kind of
064keep track that with case law and attorney general opinions can kind of provide some guidance on if we're dealing with a certain similar a similar situation it provides us some guidance on how how has it been interpreted in other courts um those decisions do kind of set a precedent on how other communities are to look and deal with these matters so approvals you've got basically two types you've got non-discretionary and discretionary so you've got objective and subjective so non-discretionary um zoning Administration that's kind of a little bit more day-to-day operations you know when we're reviewing you know decks or fences or things that you have six feet made of this placed here checks all the boxes you're good to go it's kind of the same with your site plans if you're reviewing a site plan
065for a permitted use and the application meets all of the requirements um you I know it's it's it's hard saying it but you have to approve it they if they've met all of your requirements it's a permitted use then you have to approve it that doesn't stop you from asking questions it doesn't stop you from making recommendations you know it doesn't stop you in a in a back and forth reasonable conversation with the applicant it's just that the applicant does not need to take those recommendations into consideration and you cannot deny based on the fact that they didn't does that kind of make sense so then we get to the fun stuff subjective decisions um so these kind of come in the form of of three big mans one being special land uses uh the
066other with planned unit developments and then like Z uh text and map Amendment so special land uses are typically applied to uses that could have um adverse effects on the surrounding area on the surrounding zones the surrounding uses uh they might be a little bit more intensive in nature uh there might be an element of them that um requires a little bit more scrutiny and so with a special land use uh application or the the special land use that gives the Planning Commission the ability to take a look at it at a little bit more of a subjective level and kind of assess certain criteria to say whether or not they think it's appropriate even though it's subjective there are still criteria in your zoning or that you are to use to kind of Base
067your your position off of and that criteria in and of itself is a little subjective um but it does give you a little bit more leeway you know if you're dealing with something that's going to be a 247 operation it's going to give you a little bit of opportunity to talk about lighting are they going to be on all night how far away is it from residential um things of that nature so special landuse does offer kind of a a subjective tool to review things but it is in your zoning ordinance as far as the types of criteria that you're you're supposed to use planned unit developments are planning RS are there for a project that kind of meets the kind of meets the intent or the the the purpose of a zoning or a
068district or the community in a certain area but if held to the strict standards of that District or that type of development it wouldn't work and so what this allows is an is an applicant to come forward with a project that needs a little bit of flexibility in how we look at setbacks and how we look at certain standards but in return for that flexibility the community can can expect and require the highest level of quality and design in materials um in community amenities or benefits things of that nature it's it's it's the flexibility to kind of they're coming to you asking for something from the perspective of they think it's a good project but it's just it it's not going to fit if held to all of the all of the standards and it's
069your ability to come back to say okay what kind of community amenities can we have you know what kind of architectural design can we get what kind of building materials are we going to use this is not a way to get around needing 27 variances to make your project work this is not a way to get a use permitted in a Zone it's not permitted in um and I can say that we and I haven't been subject to too many people who who've attempted to take that route but that's why have pre-application meetings at the township as a requirement before they put in a site plan to you guys they can kind of bring the idea to us and if we if we got the sense that maybe that's what they were looking to do
070um you know we would we would caution them against that route and try to look for a different option that felt better in with what they were trying to do um that same discretionary decisions can um are provided to you when you're considering text amendments or map amendments so we just went through one at the last meeting again in the zoning ordinance there are Criterion which you use to kind of Bas your your decision on whether or not you feel what is being asked of you is appropriate um for the community for the area for things of that nature again these they're subjective but there's some guidelines it's not just straight shoot from the hip subjectivity your ordinance will all ordinances have some level of guide to use any questions oh you're always good for
071one I need to Circle back I I just need to close this in my head no no so we had something before us about a year or so ago M and there was variances being asked for and one of them was a um 100 foot boundaries at least 100 feet from all exterior lot lines and we they asked for that and it was approved um could we because of the unique requirements maybe un istics of the property a property line could we look at that and make a decision to say it's it can be 50 feet or is that is that more as the chair said that's more of a zoning board discussion that oh sorry I think that's yeah that project was a PUD so yes you you were in a position to negotiate
072or or request that buffer be a certain amount of feet here or there so that would have not required a variance so we could have potentially said instead of doing 100 feet for these Lots because of a lot lying or I should say for those buildings because the lot line came in a just way it was it was in a very odd spot within that development we could have potentially work with that developer to adjust that that distance and maybe it forced them to move mo one house or building a little bit but we created a balance between okay correct I think you've answered my question than yeah and if they if if there's if there's a a reasonable situation that that would prevent them from doing that then you can start to talk about
073okay well what can we do for landscaping buffering right can we increase the amount of landscaping that you're going to put in this area because these properties are these developments are going to be closer to residential than what maybe you were hoping to get out of the back you know the Pud element of it so that when would we do that through the as the applicant is presenting we would have that discussion during that time after they've done a presentation and we're asking questions would that be the appropriate time to correct okay yeah it was s um you have I mean there's pros and cons to both ways you have I would say that in that part of it you have the benefit of a preliminary and final setup where you're going to see it
074twice not all communities do that but preliminary is really the time to kind of kind of back and forth and get something where you want it to be um so that when it comes back at final they've they've kind of met that that agreement add that sorry I'm very familiar with the particular circumstances of that of that issue but the general rule of thumb with the Pud is you as a board have complete right for negotiation as part of a PD process they are seeking relief from your Zorn to create a better essentially a better project um but you have the right to uh dictate some of the terms of what those reliefs are and the amount of benefit that is requested or given back as part of the development should be commens with the
075amount of relief that's given from the zoning ordinance as part of that process so it really is it's a great tool um and it's one that's really it's a negotiated process um uh from from really from start all the way to the end so you have the right as a board to ask for certain things as part of a PUD um and that's where guidance from staff would help you kind of determine what is appropriate and what's not to ask for as part of that negotiation so thanks sure so risk management um so obviously Kelly firm uh can guide us through a lot of this um but some of the things that we kind of like to touch on and I always like to tell people is you can get sued for anything by anyone
076at any time right that's the world that we live in so trying to operate in a manner where you don't get sued isn't I mean don't get me wrong don't run around trying to get sued but but try to operate in a manner where where you just avoid it at all costs isn't going to be an effective way to be a commissioner so what you can do is you can manage your exposure to that liability of of being uh of being pulled into litigation and we do this by look using consistent rules and procedures um treating everyone fairly and consistently you know it's we're all human you're going to have things in front of you that you like or you don't like or it is what it is but that's why there's zoning ordinances that's
077why there's standards that's why there's a criteria given to you to make your decision based off of and you need to use that criteria um avoiding conflicts of interest which we'll kind of get into in a minute um and keeping accurate and complete records so this is my part to give a plug to Susan and to Cheryl and to Kelly and to Danielle all of the staff at the township that help us with minutes help us get your packets together help us keep all of these things on file you know you guys get to see a site plan but there are there there's 50 to 60 to 70 pages of documents that go with every project big or small and they all got to be recorded and they all about to be kept on file
078so that we can all reference them in five years because we're going to forget what we went through um so keeping a a a nice accurate complete system and and I'll give a lot of credit to the Tim London in the building department you know Tim's been working here for a couple of years now and was charged with a big task of getting a lot of those things in order and he's and he's done so I I've even seen the benefit of in the two years that I've been here so conflicts of interest um you know one of the reasons why you're on the Planning Commission is because you live here right you provide a context to this community that we as consultants do our best to understand your community to to live it and
079breathe it but that's exactly what you do you live it and and you breathe it but because of that you have friends you have neighbors you have business owners that you know and so in the position that you're in you need to be able to recognize when there's a potential conflict of interest um obviously if you're the applicant that's an easy one uh a relative again any kind of relation to someone who might be up here making an application to you that is a conflict of interest a business associate either your business does business with them they're a colleague at a workplace things of that nature can begin to kind of slip into Gray area close ties um the rule of them that we we kind of use is that if you have to ask
080it's probably a conflict of interest if there's a question or a thought in your mind that this might even be a conflict of interest there's a good chance that it is if there is or if you feel that there's one the procedure for that is at the meeting that you state the nature of the conflict this is you know again an easy one this is my brother that's an easy one um but whatever it is that you feel it may be you stated it at the meeting you the the commission does need vote to approve of an AB of your exstension um so the appropriate thing to do is for you to abstain from that conversation from that vote uh but the Commissioners your fellow Commissioners do need to vote to approve that um in
081the event that they do approve it I would say something that's not on here but we would definitely tell you as well is if you are approved to be abstained leave the room so there there are instances where people have abstained gone and sat in the crowd and the wink of an eye the scratch of a cheek the smirk on a face can all get construed in a thousand different ways of influencing what you're doing up here so if you abstain if it's approved leave the room and after everything's done and voted on people will be back you know you can come back and then last but not least the minutes should reflect all of that put it in writing it's all above boards you know you it can never really come back on you
082that you didn't operate in the in the appropriate uh and effective manner so again you know Europe up here making decisions about people who want to change their zoning uh text amendments that want to be changed site plans for projects to get approved um the thing that you have to keep in mind is that zoning must provide a reasonable use in that we can't make decisions or take actions that are obviously geared towards you know preferential to one type of use or one type of project but you know um get in the way of developing another so whatever kind of Zone we apply to a Lander whenever we're considering rezonings you have to think about you have to think about the types of uses that can go there what are the regulations that that are
083around them what kind of setbacks what kind of you know lot Dimension standards you have to really take the whole everything into mind to make sure that the that the Zone that's being applied or maybe the resoning that's being requested would provide a reasonable use for the land you you can't say Walmart can only go in C1 and C1 only allows for 10,000 foot retail you have to be able to use the land um one thing we hear a lot of is highest andus use right so it gets thrown around a lot um but but what the law says is that you need to be able to get a reasonable return on the value of your property it's not you to get the most money out of whatever it might be if the if the
084highest and best use and the most profitable thing for that property is a slaughterhouse that doesn't mean you have to allow the slaughter house there but you do have to provide for a reasonable return on the value of of someone's property and the way it can be used um we could talked about motions support your decisions with findings based on review standards so you're not just approving something you're approving because it met the standards of and then you can kind of state what those were or and and potentially more importantly you are denying something because it did not meet the standards of so if we're looking at a special land use if there's a part of that special Landes criteria that you feel it warrants a denial you need to reference that when you make
085your motion and when you take your vote because then it goes back to records and now we're say in five years and we don't remember but in reality in six months we won't remember remember we're constantly going through minutes we're we're constantly looking back to see what what was decided about what was discussed you know how did they come to that determination follow proper procedures we talked about that I think you got do a good job um you know as far as just again the procedures in place for for speaking for hearing the public for making a motion for voting things of that nature um and then it's a lot of it's case law right no two things ever stay the same the world is ever changing and it's our job to kind of keep
086tabs on those things and we do and if there are changes that are coming or that have taken place that all of a sudden your ordinance needs to be brought up to date we'll bring it in front of you if there's something you're deliberating that case law can can help inform you know we'll put that in front of you so that you understand it um but that is it's an Ever changeing the world as it relates to federal state local laws and case law and how they affect the decision that you're going to make okay any questions okay I'll get to your slides here Ben yep prough guys all the way on your right didn't ask question all right there you go you're just gonna have to click on the down arrow uh well thank
087you again um again Ben car car War Associates I want to thank you all for being volunteers it's not always the easiest job but obviously a really valuable Public Service um I'd also like to I take the opportunity to thank you on behalf of Carl Wartman I don't think you're our oldest client but you're really close to being one of our oldest clients we uh our home office is in an arbor but really got our start uh in Northern Oakland County about 40 years ago so um we've got a long relationship with the township so I really um I want to thank you for that that partnership um I had the easiest job here because most of what I was going to talk about was covered by Morgan so um I'm going to be real
088quick here but there's a few things I did want to start with um elements of making effective decisions one of things I always um tell my Planning Commission is um expect expect complete information when you review an application and our job our primary job is to ensure that an application that comes before you has all the required information that you need to make an effective decision however if it does not or you have questions please do not feel obligated that you have to take an action on an item that you don't feel like you have complete information on you have the right to postpone an item to ask for additional information um at a subsequent meeting that doesn't mean you should delay action just to delay action and extend it even though you know you're
089going to deny it eventually but if you don't feel you have enough information or the accurate information you have the right to postpone action and ask one of us or the applicant to come back with additional information in order for you to make that effective decision um also be prepared I think we I know it's a volunteer position you're in but I think you owe it to the applicants um to to be prepared for an item that comes before you what I always encourage my um planning Commissioners is if you read the packet before the mean which I hope you all read your packets before the mean and there's something that's not in there or you have a question it's much more effective if you reach out to one of us before the meeting and
090say hey Ben I really don't know this would you please provide more information for this at the meeting Etc that way one you're not blindsiding us with information that we don't know and two it's better for us to prepare in order to assist you all in making a decision so those are two things I really encourage um you to do prior to a meeting um Morgan went over the next the you know conduct early meetings properly document decision we really Hammer that tonight in terms of preparation I always encourage you to go out to the site itself you can learn so much more by going out to a site than you can ever look at a plans Etc um it really gives a better feel of the property gets a better feel of the the
091adjacent uh uh context of the property traffic conditions noise issues whatever may come up going to the physical property is really valuable in terms of evaluating of application in front of you however when you do so make sure you avoid exp parte um context so you may go out to a property and the property owner is there uh or business owner's there whatever and they want to talk to to you about what you know the application frun you please please please uh avoid all that contact just say here sir ma'am I'm here to check out the property I can't you deliberate our comment with you um and and so leave again we Hammer the X parte com uh uh contact so please avoid that but do the site visit again review the material in advance
092we spent a lot of time putting these reports together so I encourage you to ensure you read them before the mean if again if you don't understand something or you have questions or you want additional information feel free to read reach out to us prior to the meeting um and ask those questions um and and we can provide additional information question for so we get a packet on Thursday for the following Thursday yeah and if there's a topic on there that could potentially warrant a site visit somewhere um I've read in other literature that we need property owner approval avoid the contact if it's 1500 Acres I'm just I'm making that but if it's a huge piece of property i' go I've heard two different rules and I will defer to the attorney on one
093um I've heard um a lot of communities simply say stay within the public on the public Realm of the prop so stay on the sidewalk stay outside the property um that's the general rule of thumb I'd always say um I've also have communities that I work for we actually on the application for a a site plan or whatever we say you know the the the property owner will sign off yes planning Commissioners are allowed to enter the property with notification in order to do a site visit so you can handle it either way I I'll defer your turne in terms of how you handle it um but I'd say unless you have authorization from the property you probably should stay on the Public's portion of the property I would completely agree with that I don't
094think that our application has anything that's what I thought and if I recall correctly we might be amending the application is that right I think there might be something in ordinates that says by apply it's you should probably if that is the case then the ordinance would control so you could visit um because it's not on the application because our applicants aren't notified of that when they apply they're required to know the ordinance they legally are um supposed to know what they're applying for under the zoning ordinance but better safe than sorry you know you want to avoid any allegations of trespassing um but if I recall correctly we may be amending the application and we would add that so if we do that then we'll let you guys know and if you if you
095have interest in doing that if you can reach out to the building department and we can we can try to set it up from the perspective of making sure the applicant knows maybe even setting up a time or something of that nature so it's not just you driving up and starting to walk into a piece of property we can work with you to kind do something that's a little bit more formal I have two questions you're setting up a site visit have a quum right so you're GNA have everybody there so G to be seven or eight different site visits at that point could be could be okay that yeah what what I usually do is I I'll call the property owner and say Hey you we have an application coming up in front of
096the planing commission my planing Commissioners want to come out and look at it do you have any problem with that no I don't problem with that and then I just let the planning Commissioners know you go out whenever you have you know availability to go out there um if there is very very rarely have I coordinated a a trip with the Planning Commission but I do so I always advertise that as a meeting um so they go out together and they look at it together but that's always done through an open Med act but very rarely do I do that mostly it's just you as an individual commissioner can go out and look at the property yourself okay second question is if you want to postpone you want to postpone the application is that done
097can it be done prior to a meeting so that the applicant isn't wasting their time coming to a meeting or should it be done during the open meeting should it should should be done during the open meeting and then you should very clearly articulate during the meeting as part of your motion eventually your Mo we get to this point about motions as part of your motion exactly why you're postponing we're postponing action tonight on blah blah blah blah blah for these reasons and you know for the app to come back with the following information boom boom boom boom whatever it may be be very prescriptive and precise about exactly what you want them to come back with um when you make your motion for postponement yeah but but um again uh I'm not attorney but
098um you know you have the right to postpone for more information you shouldn't postpone action you shouldn't postpone just because you don't want to make a decision it's a really T decision you want to make it he just keeps postponing postponing postponing that's that's not a reason to postpone but you certainly have the right to postpone in order for the applicant to either address conditions you want to be met and or you need additional information that's certainly appropriate even addition that's that's that's within re that's appropriate yeah and that's where you direct staff you know you know we staff we need additional information on XY and X Y and Z whatever it may be yeah so I'm I skipped over a whole bunch of stuff that I was going to present because Morgan covered it
099better than I would ever cover it so I'm going to just really briefly close with a few slides about zoning principles um we again we've talked about this a lot decisions should be supported by evidence um every decision you make really is supported by standards in your zoning ordinance so I always encourage you to reference your standards when you make a decision especially for special uses anything discretionary you should always reference the standards under which you make made that decision so I always encourage my planning Commissioners um you know if you're if you're making an amendment ver a text Amendment zoning rezoning Etc you go through each standard individually and say Here's a standard have they met the standard yes or no and why have they met this standard yes or no and why that
100should be all supported ultimately in your motion saying the applicants met standards outlined in section whatever of the ordinance uh for whatever approval you're making so again your your motion should be supported by evidence and that's really be done by your standards in your zoning ordinates um do you I'm sorry I shouldn't know this but I'm gonna ask do you give them draft motions so we kind of work with the Kelly firm I think I think that's something we can work on a little bit more but yes we we they do work on motions yeah I I'd encourage I'd encourage draft motions um they really I I do that for all my apping commissions and it really helps kind of guide direction of the Motions um it's not to sway you one way or another
101I give a motion to approve I get a motion to deny um and just rationale alls you kind of think through those as you make those as you make those decisions um if you're going to say no to something it's really important to to use the standards as to why you're saying no you're going to be challenged much more in a no vote than you're going to be challenged on a yes vote for the most part so if you're going to say no to something be very clear as to why you're saying no to it and how it is your no is supported by the standards under which you're reviewing that particular application so that's really really really important um I guess I'm pumping our own tires here a little bit but experts do provide
102question about that um so when do you state what you just said if I if is it before the vote or I mean so the motion it would be between deliberation so um the motion is made and it's seconded and then it's discussed right is that the the sequence yeah it would be during that discussion is that when you a person a commission would talk about what they disagree with or why they might vote a certain way I would recommend that if you are especially if you're going to vote no your emotion says um you know we I move to um find that the or deny the application because they do not yeah it's a motion because they do not meet the standards okay for these reasons and that should be in your motion and
103then you take a second on that and then you deliberate that motion I think your motion should actually sorry I keep I'm sorry I was interrupting I trying to save you some time because you answer my question yeah so it's not if I vote on a motion to say no it's if the motion's for a no for the whole topic yes thank you yeah yeah but again I I I always think it's safe to in your motion for denial you put the standard section you reviewed under and the reasons why it doesn't meet those standards thank you and that's why premotion that we write premotion motions that we give you draft motions it's helpful to have that already laid out in case you do decide to go one way or another you have those in
104in front of you second I'm sorry that would second that okay I think it helps um especially for NE yeah um because what I don't want to do like what I what I get really really nerves about is um planning Commissioners free willing their emotions on the Fly and again especially if if it's going to be a denial because I want to make sure that that record if they're going to deny it is really really strong as to why they're denying it and in fact I don't know if if you would agree with this a lot of times if I know that my Planning Commission is going to make a no on a on a a tech very technical matter or a very cont conscious or very controversial matter I'll actually have them postpone action
105um and direct staff to actually write a denial a resol so everything I is done through resolutions and have them have them draft a resolution of denial with the specific reasons as to why they're Deni and have that come back to the meeting later the the next meeting so that you're actually reviewing that and making making a um a motion on the actual resolution of denial rather than just free willing it um as part of your deliberation at that meeting um I would not you don't always have to do that but that's if there's something that you think is going to be really controversial or there's going to be pending lawsuit Etc I I always recommend doing that so I don't know if you've seen that before yes and it's never a bad idea it's
106always better to cover your bases especially I agree with a V so and hopefully they know you're you you're well enough to know where you they think you may be headed down to a no vote where they can kind of direct you towards that that that direction or not usually do you see a fair amount of motions for denial I mean normally what I see is you know for examp yeah I don't see it not not very I hav seen I don't see I haven't seen a ton but they do happen um and I'm I'm just my my antenna goes up a little more in terms of defensibility when it is a no just because I I want to make sure that the record's really good and strong because they don't happen very often um
107but but less than 10% I guess is what we see denials it's not very often because hopefully um we've done enough good a good enough job up front to tell the applicant hey this isn't going to get you're this isn't going to fly you know um that's that's our job up front to really prepare the applicant to put their best foot forward or either say you know I don't think this is going to going to go forward a lot you know they they take our advice for the most part so um so one of the hard this one of the hard things to do as a Planning Commission is to wait the rights of the public versus the rights of an individual um obviously that kind of gets the idea of nimbyism right uh you
108know it's I I want it but I don't want it here I support development but not not right here and so oftentimes you have to weigh the benefit of the community and the benefit of the development versus what you may hear as a nextdoor neighbor Etc and you'll see this a lot also with Public Utilities cell towers things where it's a public good but people don't necessarily want that right in their backyard and so you have to weigh what's the what's the public goods it's a public good and the public benefit outweigh the particular concerns of a particular individual and that's a tough really tough thing now you can you can do your best to mitigate impacts um but you really you really have to weigh the the right of the public good the individual
109um and the Z orance must be fair and reasonable uh and cannot be arbitrary and capricious and so we obviously that's our job to ensure that the Z orance is uh applied uh fairly and written fairly but that's really important for General principle yep when it comes to the of is it generally it's such a hard question I think it's I think it's a I think it's um I'm sorry ask I mean it's it's a collective you know you're you're one of seven votes so it's a collective decision of this body to either approve or deny an application um you really your your role in the Planning Commission is not necessarily to have an individual opinion but what is best for the community and what does the ordinance say and what are the standards under
110which I'm reviewing the application um I I wouldn't say it's weighted one way or another I think it's really on a Case by case basis on the application but again as as as Mata St you know if it's a we call by so basically it meets the orance requirements it doesn't require any sort of special or you discretionary approval if it meets those if it meets as orang you really should approve it um there's no reason there's no reason not to approve something that's by right and so a lot of times that's your toughest one because it may be by right but yet there's a bunch of angry Neighbors about it um so again that's why I again I go back to rely on the Z nor rely on standards to make your your decisions
111but you shouldn't you shouldn't weigh it one way or another as as you as you review applications that would correct me if I'm wrong you always do when you're thinking about if you have something that's discretionary and whatever whatever element it is about it that is kind of guiding you towards denial think about whether or not that element could be modified in a way that is reasonable that then makes you more comfortable with approval so like it's not you know like I said we we deal with sometimes if it's lighting and we can we back and forth of them the perspective that the lighting does get turned off at a certain point period of time or we increase the Landscaping to you know to help with buffering from other uses I would I would just
112I would just say kind of run that through your head too as if you're leaning in that is it something that there's just no way around or is there something that that that could be worked out through the application process and remediated to the point which you then feel comfortable with it we clear do we I think so good enough for do we confuse you more or clarify it um so I'm really happy you're going through your master plan process um a good master plan is is the best defense in zoning litigation as um as Matteo said you know if you're on this commission long enough at some point you will be sued it's just inevitable that something will happen where you'll be sued um and the best thing that that you can do is
113have a good master plan because if the zoning or decision if the decision you made with regards to the application is supported by your mass plan that's the first thing a judge will look at and if your master plan is in good standing your decision is consistent with your master plan you know judges like to defer to municipalities in those types of situations so if your master plan is up is in good standing um that's your your best defense in in litigation as long as you applied it accurately uh also Zone orces cannot exclude otherwise lawful uses so you cannot simply say we don't like Walmarts or we don't like McDonald's or we don't like whatever it may be if it's a perit if it's a lawful use you have to have allow it for
114someone in your Township that doesn't mean you can't put restrictions on it or regulate it um or put conditions upon it or have it go through one process or another but you simply can't exclude it so the case I always use is is um back in the day a big thing was sexually or oriented businesses no one wanted them in their Community you couldn't exclude them but you could certainly regulate time place and location uh of those particular type of uses so um just be you just can't simply say we don't want this in our Comm Community it's just not it's just not not permitted um we we've gone over these procedures matter make sure you're consistent uh treat everyone the same regardless to if you know them or don't know them your neighbor or
115your enemy make sure everyone's treated with a fair uh and um uh Fair process uh through the through the procedure um require everyone to follow the same procedures they go through do not give relief or Grant because you know someone or it's a developer that's in front of you all the time you know they do good work they still have to follow the same procedure as everybody else um and lastly deal with issues in a prompt manner it goes back to my earlier point about postponement um if you are if you do not like an application and you know you're going to deny it do it in a swift manner under the standards under which you would deny it do not punt it punt it punt it punt it punt it and then deny it
116uh that's where the judges kind of get angry if you string them along string along string along deny him a year later um I always say if you know this an application does not meet your standards and you're going to deny it make a really good record and do it very do it do it quickly give them Fair process let them to go through the fair process but don't string them along especially if you're going to deny it so take quick action on that any questions on that um we keep hammering the same thing uh all decisions made an open meeting make sure they're all made an open meeting uh and do not express an opinion um uh until all the facts have been made so you're here to listen present that they present you
117their their case you can deliberate and then you guys make a decision do not make a decision prior to all the uh presentation being in front of you I think that's all I have thank you very much thank you are there any particular issues you're dealing with that you want you have questions on wants to answer or anything I actually have a question okay um it's not quite 100% related um so preliminary site plan comes to CWA at the township before we see it um drawings are submitted that time right is with all the changes of technology and if there's a desire for us to see that property and we really can't always squeeze in between a Thursday and the next Thursday can be part of the application process be submitted Drone footage or some
118other like some other way of getting us to see without having to you know spend a lot of time that would help us in that way is that something that is being considered at all um no I haven't heard Drone footage um aerial photography is very readily available right and it's but it's not really all that three-dimensional like because one thing that's unique about Oxford that I see are these steep slopes and different the lands just formed from mining mining extraction over time and um yeah it's it's it's really interesting I haven't I haven't heard that um I haven't really been asked that before what I would be a little worried about again I want for your turnning about this one would be um would that place would the would the requirement of a drone
119require would be would be a burden on certain applications over others where you where um You' be treating people differently that makes sense because that's a that's a pretty big ass to someone to fly a drone over a property um and some smaller applicants may not have the wherewithal to be able to do that and so you want to Tre everyone the same um that's why a photography is a little bit easier because everyone there's it's very accessible um I've never been asked the Drone that's a great one we do laser scanning inside of buildings all the time yeah to look for clash detection for utilities and things yeah industrial buildings and yeah no it's it's no it's good it's good it's a good interesting one never asked that put an application we actually our
120company just bought a drone recently so it would be helpful like because sometimes these decisions we have to make it you know really it's a six day period we get it on a Thursday night and we're being asked to vote on something on a Thursday yeah and um you know we have fulltime jobs pretty much the outside so as much information that's is readily available so we can be as informed quickly as possible be helpful then I would almost say this through my own clarification I think it may have been maybe what blank CH was getting to is could they postpone something simply because they want more time to review it I'd be well I kind of I thought maybe but I'm like I you know you can as long as you don't postpone and
121then postpone and then postpone because that's a do process issue so if someone's going to sue you guys for denying they're going number of allegations in the complaint the first thing they're going to say is that your decision wasn't based on proper procedure or was arbitrary pricious then they're going to say you violated my equal protection or my could du process CA of the Constitution if you continually popone something and everyone knows that you're going to deny it or very going toy it that's a procedural process issue and I just be really like if you're going to postpone um be clear as to why you're postponing it you know I'm postponing it we need more time because we need to review X Y and Z not that I we're just we didn't do our homework
122or whatever just there should be specific reasons as to why you're your postp point the action postf you can't just postpone it inevitably yeah that would make sense think A month's time right it's a week before you're postponing it to the next meeting three weeks gets a little bit cloudy though in my mind about if you think you're G to deny then don't postpone it's like want to give them that due process you want to give them the due diligence to to really understand it better rather than just I'm denying you because I don't have enough information more unfair I think you think you're going toy if you postpone I would say once as a rule of th that's reasonable if you start postponing more than once that's when it becomes the problem yeah I
123woulde yeah I trying to put myself in the shoes of an applicant anyway I I didn't I didn't mean to to I guess I I I apologize if I misspoke um you if you think you know give every applicant a Fair due process but don't string them along is is my point so if you're unsure if you're going to deny or approve something but yet you want more evidence or information or whatever feel free to postpone to ask for whatever you may need and if they come back with what you need and it supports your decision to approve it great if it's not enough and you want to deny at that point that's fair too but you know make sure there there's Fair process just don't just don't string them along if you think you're
124going to deny them thank you for the clarification so if you're a one of the seven and there's a motion to say approve or deny you don't feel you have enough information yet to make your decision is that a how does that get worked out you know what I mean from procedural process how does that like I don't have enough information but here we are on a motion right to approve or deny and I don't feel like I'm the only guy here that feels like maybe I missed the last meeting or I didn't have time to review whatever right how does that get dealt with typic so um I always encouraged before motions made to State I don't have enough I don't have enough motion yeah I don't have enough information to make a decision
125I would like X Y and Z hopefully you all you either agree with that or don't agree with it and then when you actually make the motion the motion is then I move that we postpone because of x y and z um I i' would be up front before you actually get to the part about what what you need as additional information to make a determination I think I recall now talking what happens though in the situation where the motion's been made and you suddenly go shoot I need I don't have all the information how is that hand you can discuss that durber if there's a general consensus that can amend the motion or whoever made the motion can withraw um otherwise if there's General consensus we're going to approve this everyone else can vote
126to approve and you can vote to deny it's not going to make any difference or vote no to approval I suppose would be the right answer you're not necessarily sorry wasain cannot abstain yes or no yeah yeah once a once a vote is called even if you don't think you have enough information you have to B to vote that's why I sorry no you're good I was going to say remember you're not voting to deny if you vote no on a motion to approve you're just not voting to approve so if every if the majority voted no on a motion to approve then nothing happens it's not techically denied it's not affirma parliamentary procedure is not fun no it's worse when you have a motion and then a majority of No and then what happens
127then I I I've had attorneys that always want their bodies to vote in the affirmative even if they're going to deny it because that was much clearer than voting to deny in the denial vote gets loses does that make does that make sense no so exp um it's confusing if there's a motion on the floor to deny and that motion fails you're in limbo because it's a motion motion To Deni it fails but that's not necessarily a motion to approve the pro approve it either so what I what most what a lot of our a lot of attorneys I work with and this is getting like way in the weeds of parliamentary procedure and Rob Rules of Order and way due detail probably some some Municipal attorneys I work with always wanted their bodies to
128vote in the affirmative even if they're going to not approve the project because that's very that's much Clear um than it would be in the reverse case I just I just mentioned and that's what I was getting at before because I never see these motions toy always it's always you know do we approve or not yeah yes yeah I mean if the general consensus after you discuss before a motion has been put on the floor is we're going to deny this and these are the deficiencies these are the reasons why then it's safe to do motion toy and put all those reasons in motion if you're really not sure which way anyone's going to go a lot easier to do a motion to approve and then let that motion it neily it's it's okay if
129you're unclear before you make a motion to to consult with your attorney and say this is where I'm going is this the right way to do it and you know either she'll give you guidance yes or noes that she's here are you at are you come to the me does do your request usually yeah kind of based on what's getting put in front of you we can kind of gauge if having County be you know of Subs assistance to you guys during but mat and I have been through enough these means you can always consult with us to or one of us here and say yeah I think I would do it this way or I would do it that way I think we've done that with Matta my tenure which is very short already
130right where we've asked for guidance before we make a motion yep that's what we're here for we unfortunately sit through a lot of these meetings so we've been through before chosen profession isn't it yeah it chose us I guess some of us yeah well thank you I really appreciate your time thank you very much appreciate appreciate the training from both of you okay so will move on to number 11 communication committee reports devel uh from a planning perspective what have we got uh in April you guys will probably have um some additional uh zoning map Amendment requests um and then it's it's spring so anyone who wants to be digging by Fall is starting to kick the tires at the uh at the township I don't think we have any applications for review just yet
131but uh like I said I think April will have some rezonings to look at motion to adjourn