001To the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands. One nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. Since this is an open meeting, I should probably call for public comment. >> I suppose you could. I mean, we might as well do that. >> Do you have any public comment? >> Otherwise, I'll get >> anyone online. >> So, there is no public audience. So, we will not have public comment tonight as part of this meeting. So, we'll just move right into the uh meat and potatoes of our meeting, which is some boardsmanship training with Bel Martin tonight. So, we thank you guys for coming and giving us your time and hopefully we'll get some good information out of this. So, thank you. >> Yeah, thanks for
002having us. My name is an attorney with Army and beside me is Jeff who's a senior partner at the firm since 2020. [Music] Yeah, here. >> Hold on. We're working on it. We're working on it. Kayla, we got Devin really getting his paces in here. Can you hear me better now, Kayla? >> Yes. >> Thank you. >> So, uh, Jeff was chief legal counsel at OPI in early 2000s, uh, before transitioning to private practice. Um, him along with myself and another attorney at our firm primarily practice school law. Um, and we're happy to come do these trainings helpful. Kind of like a dentist appointment on the front end. have some sort of understanding on certain things before you, you know, you get that cavity down. So, um, >> hopefully just less thinking in my mind
003that I with the Laurel board, I remember at least three different spaces I've spent with you and this was an interesting meeting. We had a there was a time when the board was here was kind of divided and he had a particular trustee who was divisive. Were you Were you here then? >> Yeah. Yeah. So, I had a little PTSD when I came in here. So, >> then I remember meeting in the superintendent's office where the board met around that big table for a while. And there was a a kid was before the board to be suspended for selling what he believed to be dope, but in fact was just catnip. And so, it was like a bad deal all the way around. I don't know about the kid being expelled, but he his his
004supplier had screwed him over. It's not funny. I mean, it's just like it's just you can't make that stuff up. So, I'm sorry. >> See, you could write a book. >> I Nobody would read it, but >> maybe school clerks would. >> So, um before you you have our little black book of secrets. Um it covers some of the high points as to school law. We are not going to go through page by page or even touch on some of the chapters, but it's a good uh reference if you have general questions as to some of the areas you'll certainly encounter. Um before we get started, uh just generally speaking, is there any questions or topics any of you would like us to make sure to touch on tonight? We'll definitely touch on chapter one
005and probably get into chapter two, but we don't usually touch on the other chapters too much. I recognize some of you. Let me get a sense of how many years you've been on the board. How how long have you been on the board? >> I've been on the board. This is my fourth year. >> Ditto. Yep. Fourth year. I just Yep. Started a new term >> just a few months. >> Elected last spring or last. >> Yeah. >> And I was appointed to a couple months before. fourth year on this board. >> Well, I served two appointments of a year a piece and then was elected. I've served one year of that three-year term, but I was here seven years as the business manager. >> How about trustee online? I was appointed >> and then
006she won re-election >> and she got elected. >> She's a she was a teacher. >> Kelly was a principal in our district and retired from our district three years ago. >> I retired in 20. I had been here eight years. >> My mom was the chair when we had when they we had our >> difficult difficult Oh yeah. >> Well, it's a it's a relatively young board then, isn't it? So, >> anyway, so we can meander into any topic that you >> and we'd rather it be a discussion than a lecture. So, feel free to interject with questions as we go along, but um we'll just go ahead and get started on page one. So, um, you as a board are called trustees, and that's no accident. Uh, under the Montana Constitution, it spells out
007specifically that a local school district is to be under the supervision and control of, uh, a board of trustees that that is elected, um, as provided by law. And so, what that means is that as a board, you hold in trust all of the district's resources and property. uh for the benefit of your students um for educational purposes. It's um not super uncommon, but to have it spelled out in the constitution like that is pretty powerful. It's not everywhere. It's not all states that have that. So to have that specifically provided um kind of spells out your power as a local board that you have uh the control to oversee your school district. And with that comes what's called a fiduciary duty. So a fiduciary duty under the law is essentially the highest duty that
008have um lawyers to their clients have a fiduciary duty. Uh your doctors have a fiduciary duty to act in your best interest. So you as a board have a fiduciary duty to act in the best interest of your students of your tax base to make decisions that you all believe are in the best uh interest of your district. Um, so that's kind of the big picture if you want to start there and then everything else kind of trickles down from that machine. It's Yeah. So yeah, it's kind of a tough concept particularly since um probably your neighbors and friends and relatives consider you you know elected officials and need to be responsive just to their you know popular opinion. But in fact um you hold a different relationship and that is a fiduciary. So a
009lot of times that what you believe to be in the best interest of the district may be contrary to what your neighbors you know and that that conflict is very difficult to reconcile sometimes but you're not a little legislature you're not a little congress you're actually a board of of trustees that's very as N says it's kind of the highest or most important relationship in the law is that of fiduciary um um so you listen to your experts your your your education leaders and other council to come to conclusions. Um, and you can seek out information if you need information. So then the next question that follows is how do you do that? Well, um, I'll start on page two for that. So on Jeff's experience um well as Larry's other senior partner they kind
010of boiled it down to what are some maxims of um good boardsmanship? How do you how do you fulfill that role in a the best manner possible? Um and we'll get to the list on page three. I guess kind of the guiding principle in some of this is that individual trustees have no authority. Uh, and that's really important to remember, especially as you know, an elected official. As Jeff said, you're not a legislature. You don't personally represent uh, you know, your constituents. You only have power as a board of trustees. So, all decision-m authority, all uh, actions by the board have to be by the board at a as a whole at a properly noticed uh, meeting of a forum of your board. you as an individual don't have power over the school district and
011you know in a lot of ways that's helpful. So you run into your friends at the grocery store, your neighbor um you know they can ask you of stuff, you can supply information but you know you can rest assured that you as a person don't have uh individual authority to make changes or actions. Um we talked about B. So you have a fiduciary relationship with the entire district, all of its students, its employees, its patrons, taxpayers, district property. Uh that's kind of a big one as it relates to I think it I think we say it like that because it's all students, all local patrons, all taxpayers, that kind of stuff. So keeping that big picture kind of lens on things and not making any individual decisions because paper told you that's the right thing
012to do or because you might have a student that goes to the school and a decision might benefit them. But um making sure you keep that fiduciary duty. Is it the best uh decision as a district as a whole? Apart from that um kind of a key for board members is to govern at 10,000 ft. And so what that means to is to leave your day-to-day operations in the hand of your educational professionals, your superintendent. Uh leave the business uh you know realm to your clerk, your business manager. Uh make sure you know you're not stepping in that role as a superintendent or as a business manager about the day-to-day operations of your school district. It's really those bigger decisions and we'll get into some of the legal responsibilities of a board, but um that's
013really key is to stay above just make sure you're keeping up to that high level of um decision- making, not so much on individual issues of the day-to-day level. Um it's especially new trustees sometimes think that they serve on a board of trust a board of superintendents and that's not the case. That's really smiles. You've got some experience. So that's I mean one of you you'll see in a bunch of lists we made one of your chief and primary responsibilities is to hire a superintendent and that you hire that person as your chief executive officer to operate on a day-to-day basis. Um that's how you can influence the district is through hiring that person evaluating that person communicating with that person at a properly called board meeting. But if you think of yourselves as a
014governing council looking at the entire district at 10,000 ft, I think it gives you a much better perspective than thinking you need to, you know, manage on a classroom basis. Um, tying you in with that, the next one is trustees should avoid circumventing the proper chain of command or interfering with day-to-day operations. The proper chain of command is really getting at that there is mechanisms within your district likely within policy to solve issues or to bring them to the intention of somebody who is responsible for those issues rather than kind of diving in yourself. board members, individual trustees can get into a heap of trouble personally if they kind of step away from the chain of command that's in place and try to take things under uh individual advisement, so to speak. So, you know,
015making sure you're routing things to the proper uh way to handle things. So, if you experience a community complaint, for example, your district has what's called a policy 1700. I'm not sure if you guys have processed any >> they they've noticed they they know a little bit about that >> just a little bit. >> Okay. >> Uh speaking of PTSD or >> currently >> we know the number. >> Yeah. >> So yeah. So 1700 is an example of how to uh force things within the right chain of command. Um, >> and where I think that, and again, I'm not trying to bash anybody. That's never my goal in these is is to learn what's going on here. But one of the things that that probably happens the most is is that it's usually never a
016someone who you don't know that comes and talks to a board member. It's always a friend, someone in your church, someone who knows your mom and dad, someone who knows you grew up with, whatever. And that'll come in and just they'll just want to talk to you about something because they're you're a good person, you know, and you guys are good people. And I think that causes the most problem in my career is just, hey, I had somebody call and talk to me. Well, who was it? I don't want to say they don't want to be anonymous. So, are you as the board member now taking care of this problem and going to going to do a little investigation and want me to do investigation? Report back to you and you can report back to
017them. And I know why people do it because we're all nice people and we want to listen to people, but that probably causes more headaches than than almost anything that superintendents go through is when we just want to just help somebody out. And again, we're doing it for the right reasons, but rather than when they tell you to say, "Well, here's a phone number. Just give them give them a call and and you ask them, you know." Uh I think those those are >> I think it's also important. I mean, I think that we've had, at least I feel like we've had decent com um communication on this board um to give you heads up or Melissa or whoever the to say FYI, I got this question asked. I told them to call you but
018want to give you a heads up. heads up is is much different and you guys have been wonderful on that and I and I will tell you that that's something that I think that you guys have been very responsive >> uh and say hey I've gotten a heads up on that and and no so I should have added that as well. So that has been that's super helpful for me. It's s it really is >> and I mean I'm sure that Lieutenant Matt appreciates heads up and you know nine times out of ten he'll know what's going on and there's probably been something going on and he won't be able to give you any feedback. I mean if it's a student discipline matter or an employee matter um he may say well yeah thanks, you
019know, drunk along and you know we want to by recognizing the chain of command and giving heads up instead of getting involved in your little investigation yourself. Part of what we try to do is preserve your role as a board because there's times that you may have to be serving as a jury, so to speak, if there's a student discipline matter, student expulsion, or an employee matter. Um, we want to preserve your role in that regard and not have somebody later accuse you of being biased or being too involved something. And and that that's led to problems. Um, we had a a grievance out of Ecolaka several years ago. But we had a non-renewal. We had actually the the superintendent brought in the spring a recommendation to renew a special ed teacher. The night before
020the recommendation came forward, the uh parent called three trustees and said, "You won't believe they're making this and this is horrible. This is horrible. Horrible." And so the board was really confused. And so that night at the board meeting, no action was taken. No affirmative renewal or non which caused massive confusion. We eventually had to have the board come back in and try to correct that. But in the meantime, the union grieved it saying because the board members had talked to this parent about performance, the board had violated the evaluation procedure in the collective bargaining agreement. So, you know, innocently enough, they just took a call but perhaps, you know, fed it a little too much. So that's one of the reasons we want to say it's best to stand back, get the information to
021the right person, but then you may end up having to sit as judge of jury in some particular case. So that that preservation of your role is really important because we don't want to have a situation where an employee is fired, a student is expelled, and then as part of the lawsuit that follows, believe me, they do, somebody saying, "Well, the the the board violated this student's due process rights because this particular trustee has facts that were outside of the hearing process." So it that's one we're harping, but I think you're right. That's one where people innocently step into a problem that causing more grief later. >> Anything else on chain of command? >> Anything else? Can you think about anything else on that? That was a good one. And I think probably building principles
022appreciate that as well. you have somebody who's complaining about a a teacher come to you rather than go to the teacher or some other teacher or somebody who works in the building. Same thing. Recognizing that that chain of command is important. Um E. So trustees should avoid violating confidentiality. Uh you sit on a public board. We're in a public meeting right now. Not a lot of what you hear will be confidential, but what you hear that is confidential uh needs to remain. So, um >> back on. >> Can you hear us? >> Okay. >> So, examples of what you might hear that's confidential. pretty much anything uh regarding a student that comes before you would be confidential in nature and should remain confidential. Um the other thing uh that often involves some level of confidentiality
023might be things related to so uh not employment generally but specific things related to employment whether that's um requests for leave due to medical reasons that nature might fall within that uh confidential area. So just keep in mind that if you're ever in a closed meeting discussing something that needs to uh remain sealed once you step out of that meeting and confidentiality is is pure. And so if your spouse thinks because you're on the board that they get all the dirt on the school district, that's not the case. We've had situations where packets have gone home and only to find out that they were puked by your advisor. that'll come back to bite you as well. >> But again, you don't you don't see a lot of tough fish. I don't know. When have you
024had when was the last guys? We've had a we've had probably one a year, sometimes two. >> No, it's like more than that. >> Yeah. So, we've had a few uh seem to be like they're all coming out of the middle school, but but um yeah, they they've heard some close session student very private things, but I'll tell you, I I've never heard a boo in the community. This board has ever broke confidentiality in regards to those. I I've never heard boo about that. I think this is a very they understand that and really respect that. That's really good because a breach of confidentiality, breach of privacy can be a very expensive thing for a district because there's not much you can do if something is disclosed that shouldn't be disclosed. There's not much you
025can do to undisclose it other than wait for the lawsuit and pay dearly for the error. So F. So because of your roles as a fiduciary, uh you should be careful not to represent special interests or speak or vote for political purposes. >> That's really tying back to when you're making decisions, you have to make a decision based on what uh your opinion is of the best route for the school district, not necessarily whether that's the best route because of personal bias or political motivations. Um >> how do you get through that though, guys? I mean, I I have I have feelings that are pretty deep. when it comes to whatever it happens to be. And I mean, you how do you set some of those things aside? You know, we our big thing last
026couple years has been buy uh buying, you know, that we had some books in there. I don't want books that are sexually explicit in the library, period. I I I don't think it's appropriate in a in a school library, public library, online, whatever. I'm not against having the books or some parent buying the book or have kid coming to the school with the book and reading it because their parent bought them for them. That's that's a choice thing. >> But so that is a personal bias I have I guess. Uh >> the best way I think of it is if you you know if you sit as a professional which you all are or at least you know um in this role um if you think that you can't make a decision based on all
027information given to you or you've prejudged something. So good example is if your child is up before the board for an expulsion, right? You can't be objective because you're a parent. And so that would be appropriate role to step back. If you're political beliefs, be it some of the cultural war stuff like books. Sure. Or curriculum issues. um you know if there's no possible way for you to listen objectively and try to come to an understanding of what the broader perspective is then I would say you you could violate your fiduciary obligation and there's a lot of ways to work through that. I think you can talk, you know, with your chair about how you're feeling or with you and try to work your way through it. But, you know, we've seen maybe less so
028now, but last several years, you know, the the book banning culture war stuff coming through and that's tough because you it's hard for you to separate your personal feelings from that. In those cases, what I always encourage you to do is listen to your professionals, right? So depending on what process you use to either add books or take them out, you likely have a committee of educators who have looked at these. I don't know exactly what your process is, but in Billings we had several of them. And the committee that reviewed the complaint about it used a pretty objective standard. You know, it's like, is this a wellrecoognized, well-awwarded book? Even though the subject matter be something that you don't, you know, wouldn't be comfortable with your own child. Trying to just be open-minded, I
029guess, is what the what the point is there is. is if you believe you're heading down a road where you can't separate your personal feelings or beliefs to look at the the broader p perspective of an open mind, then you could be stepping into something where somebody could object to, >> right? And and and I understand that, but you you I guess if you were to sit here and say, "Well, this book has here's why it's a good book. It's gotten some award." Uh, and I say, "Well, that award came from um some some group out there that isn't representative of great literature. They just they have it they have their own political agenda. So, they they applied this award to this book or something." And so, I guess every time I read something like
030this, and I've been through your guys' a number of times, been through this type of training and had this conversation, and I've never quite understood that particular guidance because it's just like well there I mean so so if I so if I still vote the way I feel like we really should we shouldn't have this particular book in the library then I'm not open-minded I mean I >> I mean it's let me give you a good example so a number of years ago in the Billings district we had a book that had been complained about a couple of them as I recall and so their system which you know if you got a complaint it goes through a committee that reviews it and there's some standards that are applicable and and a trustee serves on
031that particular committee and the trustee said, "No, I I I find this book offensive. I'm going to vote to remove it." Then it goes to the board and and librarians, community members, uh some of the more longest hearings that you can sit through saying, "This is a great book. This is horrible. Back up." The trustee changed her mind and she said, "You know, I'm looking now at a different perspective. I'm looking at the standard that's written out. I'm hearing what the public says, including people who think this book is good, and I was wrong. I I don't like the book personally, but I think it doesn't, you know, it doesn't offend community standards to include something in that particular book. So, that was a pretty courageous act to actually say I was wrong. I misunderstood
032or I've got more information now and and I've taken a different perspective. Well, this this board is never uh we I don't even like to use the word banning books because we're not we're choosing not to purchase certain books. >> That's that's >> and and we if someone had the book in school, we're not kicking them out of school. We're not saying you can't read it. We're just saying we're not going to spend our money on it. We feel there's better options. >> So, removing books that kind of comes comes to >> Yeah, the removing books is always a pain. But but again, we have a a fairly spelled out policy where we want the librarians to use that policy as they review books and weed out books, you know, through over the next few
033years. We should be able to weed out things that just don't fit what we want as a district. So, >> well, and I think that it's been a challenge because we do have we redid our policy and it probably looks like no one else is in the state and um it was months of work um that the board did to um refine that and we worked with staff and a lot of work was done even just at the board level. um that it's not it's not your standard what they're used to, but the the law reads as far as I understand it that the the book selection ultimately comes to the board for approval and for to buy the books. So in the end, it's our responsibility to to that duty that we have. And
034so there's been push back from staff because they've felt like that's their duty for all these years because it kind of has been. It's been a rubber stamp. And it kind of came to a head when we there were several on one buying list that were it came to a point where we had meetings where we were reading things out loud that none of us wanted to read in silent, let alone out loud. And but we it got to that point where it's like this is what we're what we're up against here. And so now we've it's a continual push back from staff. Um that has made it more difficult. Um, so and wanting to know exactly why it doesn't fit policy and which I think that we've when we've pulled books off, we've communicated
035that through Matt probably more than just in a public setting just because we don't want to go back to the reading the book out loud and going through that process. But it it's been I it's been difficult at some points. I feel like I'm conflicted, especially on this book thing, with staying at 10,000 ft, but also it's the duty of the board to select the books. So, I feel like this is one instance where we've and and the trust is broken because there's terrible books that were selected, right? And so, now that's what I struggle with. I'm trying to be objective, but also I don't want this smut in the in the district. Like Matt said, if if parents are fine and they can obtain it elsewhere, we're not going to take it out of
036their hands. So in an actual example that we're currently dealing with, we have been accused of voicing our political purposes or our special interests by staff with these purposes of the books. But like I am I am honestly struggling with staying at 10,000 ft trying to do what I think is right for the children and um fulfilling our policy where the board has the the responsibility to to to purchase these books. Um but also not dragging the district through the mud reading sexually explicit excerpts from these books that you know. So any advice you have cuz I'm I really am struggling with items. >> Books are available through inter library loan for example. It's not like we're banning you from ever even looking for them. They want to go through inter library loan. We have
037a lot of books that we don't buy either are classics or even whatever could be a Harry Potter book that we just don't have one. Can I get it through inter library loan? Sure. So we don't prevent them from doing any of that. We're just not spending taxpayer money on it to get some of those books. Um, and they the board did a pretty good job of trying to create a fairly objective [Music] uh best he can to just say if it has sexually explicit material doesn't matter what situation it is. It's just we don't have that in in a thing. So they tried to create a kind of an objective checklist sort of that but the problem is this. The problem is is I'm a librarian. I'm a principal. I'm a superintendent. I I
038don't read all these books. So, I read a nice little excerpt that says, "This is an awesome book. It's great for for people." So, they say, "Oh, this is good. This is a neat book." So, we'll go ahead and order it. And I and we just don't know. And and that's part of the problem is how do you really review? Cuz 99% of the book's awesome and that it has this weird six-page sexually explicit. Some of them are crazy. Uh, and I'm thinking, "Oh, we can't have that. I can't have 14-year-olds reading that." >> And then it's in the library. And then you have to do >> Yeah. So we're trying to prevent ourselves from buying it. So turn it back over. >> It's much more complicated than acquisition. >> Yeah. Yes. Yeah. >> Well,
039it's significantly simplified this process for the district. Maybe to the chagrin of some of our particularly the high obviously our elementary librarians have not had a single issue acquiring books, shall we say. I wouldn't even say the middle school has had an issue requiring a book, specifically one library, which I would argue is underutilized anyway. Some of the books that we've looked into have not been checked out maybe ever or once in the last 5 years, and they're so charged. I'm going for me personally just the books in the library or not in the library if it's never been checked out whether it's sexually explicit or not it's never even been viewed by a child let's just get rid of it. Um and I think it just we've had a little bit of an issue
040with the with that one library in particular um with this issue. A lot of the stuff we've caught recently though is like this book's not even out yet. How are we how are we allow for public review of a book that's not even out yet? So, we've been shutting the nice thing is we've been able to head off by putting more into the pre-screen. I think we've caught a lot more stuff just >> and they've they've chosen really good books too like there there's some of those books I >> she's done a better and I will say because I think because of what we've done she has worked more diligently >> and they are trying to guys I talk to them. >> They are trying to make it extended effort. The problem is they can't
041read every word of every book on a 40 50 book list to purchase. >> But we advice we're taking. But I think that there's trustees on this board that have an extra concern over it and they have taken upon themselves to help this board vet some of those books. um which I personally have been very appreciative >> as anformational item the meeting before they're to be approved so that we have and the community because there was a lot of community involvement in that process that everybody has eyes on it before it comes that we have to act on it or I mean we could table it but that we have to act on it so that we have two weeks at least to look at them and you know do our due diligence as best
042we can and it is hard. >> Do you do it monthly, quarterly? >> Uh, it's just whenever they order. They come in to about three or four orders a year, three orders a year. There's not a particular time, but they'll have orders periodically. >> Um, and it's usually they're they're large orders. They're not coming in five or 10 books or, you know, 40 50 books, 30 books orders a few times a year. But this is I think to go back to community trust, right? I think this has gone a long way to rebuilding some of that community trust and transparency because it's not like you have to read it 4 days before the board meeting. You get two and a half weeks before the board meeting to review it. And so the community input aspect
043is available to those who wish to review. We're trying to avoid all of those challenges which take a committee and nights and going through it and and multiple meetings and then coming back and reporting to the board and then the board has to so we're trying to avoid that by just saying let's let's control it at the at the uh we can avoid those challenges by just ordering doing a better job of of ordering >> and that's the intent >> and the present makeup of this board has trustees that are willing and able to put the time into reviewing those books, which like I said, I have greatly appreciated personally. Um, and so I put in high regard the recommendation of the ones who are putting in the effort to do that. And I think
044at this moment they're acting as a community. um not watchdog, that's not the right word, but they they are they are helping the community where the community doesn't feel like they have to come into a board meeting and in a public display do these things. So I think if a future board though um doesn't have that, we've still at least allowed the community involvement two and a half weeks before we even approve the purchase of a book to look at the book. So we've opened that back up amply for the for them. So I I think we found a really good compromise in this one. And I know because you're looking at them a lot and just my belief it is for you personally it's hard to stay at the 10,000. >> I struggle with
045it. I'm not going to lie. >> Well, I'm at the 10,000 still with it because I rely on you for doing that which I much appreciate. >> That's the beauty of a board I think cuz it's not me voting solely on the books. >> Correct. And I' I'd say the book like decision isn't by you reading and doing your due diligence and coming to an opinion that's not violating the 10,000 ft because under Montana law specifically >> an expectation of the board, right? That's that's one of your duties is to um approve the purchase of books, right? So >> I would say that's not violating that 10,000 ft ideal. And I think we get hung up on this question a lot and I think it's just because we include the word political in there. I
046don't I don't take it to mean that your own political or moral leanings might not might influence how you vote on something. I think that's ingrained in all of us. So that certainly might result in your opinions on something. Um, and certainly the books probably get into the weeds more than like something that's more blatant, but you know, if for example, if you accepted all Republican presidents memoirs in your library, but directly you're not um Democratic, so you didn't want President Obama's biography in your library, right? So that's more pointed and easy to understand of thinking of political purposes rather than something Another example is hiring, right? So um not that you guys have so many applicants that you can just but um you know voting to not hire somebody because of their political views
047is a violation of human rights act for example even if he knew their political views. So that's another and this Laurel and Billings don't necessarily have this problem but in in small towns where everybody knows everybody's business right then it it that may raise more of a spectre on either political views because that person has run for the legislature or that marital status that person is married to somebody those sorts of things can come back and bite you because it's easy to make a complaint uh under the Montana Human Rights Act of of discrimination based on political abuse, marital status, um, gender, you know, those sorts of things. So, >> so what's your guys's position on the new law and the policy regarding the flags and the classroom? So, and again, I I sent that
048off to schoolboard Association today in regards to a policy review and said, "You say this, but I have teachers that have those Kansas City Chief flags and Dallas Cowboy flags, and so you didn't make any room for those. Are those out?" I mean, so, and I and those aren't political, and they're but it but it also doesn't really say they allow for that. What about advertisements? What about banners that don't have our school logo on them? and and aren't, you know, they're school related, but graduation matters in our community. So, I mean, there's there's those questions. It's like I I know that wasn't the law wasn't meant to get rid of, you know, Kansas City Chief flags. I get that, but technically it gets rid of Kansas City Chief flags. So what he's talking about
049is unless you guys have taken a look at it is kind of late in the session this bill came through and and it prescribes what kinds of flags uh school and public entities not just schools have. Um and so um I I think it was a very poorly written bill. It's very confusing and the definitions are not clear. Um and it's one of those that just is biting ACLU or other communic some other organization to come in and and sue. Right. So, um I don't know. I mean, I I I just hope it's Missoula that gets sued over it. I mean, it's because it's one of those that that will end up being a lawsuit over what is appropriate what is appropriate flag under the law and what's not appropriate, what you know, the locals
050want to do. So, um I don't know. We'll wait and see. I mean, I don't I don't think you need to change your practice. I don't know that you would necessarily have a problem with a history teacher, for example, who has printed out a number of, you know, the regiment flags from Ohio and from Alabama. >> I mean, if they're talking about >> I don't I don't think the histo talks in there about historical things. >> I think we're okay there. I'm just talking about decoration. So, I made the joke that I bought a a new Mandalorian flag for my new office, and I'm a Star Wars guy, so I'm going to put up this Mandalorian flag. And now suddenly, can I not put up a Mandalorian flag? No, I mean it's apolitical. It's just
051a Star Wars thing, but I I'm not going to now cuz I'm not going to I'm not going to say, "Well, he puts that up. Why can't I put up something?" So, >> just I find it interesting >> Star Wars track. So, that's puts us at odds. >> I I have I No, I I have a cling on flag as well. >> But I had brought up too because you know, we brought this we just talked about this last night. So, um >> 20 minutes. I mean, it's a messy bill. >> It's a bad bill, but what would So for to your history teacher example, and I brought this up. So the don't tread on me flag is exe is exempted, but okay, it makes sense in the context of a history teacher's classroom, but
052my a geometry teacher's classroom. Why are you hanging that up? It's not to show historical significance or discussion of the subject material. It's clearly political if you have a don't tread on me flag in your in your uh geometry classroom. So it's what it so that was where I I kind of had thrown that grenade in there like where where does the line go? Okay. So then and then you know my identity. So do I put a pride flag up because I identify in that group that protected class group. How do those things work? So I think those are the questions that that doesn't answer and we couldn't solve last night. >> And what's what's curious about especially the do not tread me flag. I didn't know it had them. In fact I don't remember
053the name of the guy Gatsson flag. It's been adopted by a number of different groups on both sides, right? It's kind of the adopt a libertarian flag, which makes perfect sense, right? >> Started in the Revolutionary War, >> right? But then, you know, modern iterations of it have, you know, the pride implications of it because it's like everybody can say if, you know, if if I'm feeling tread upon, I'm going to have an articulation and say, "Don't tread on me." And I believe so. That one in particular is kind of very interesting. So if you end up having something other than the revolutionary war era, one of it, does that suddenly now violate? So if you have a do not tread me pride themed flag, right? What are you going to do about that? And
054that's that's that's where it's going to be very difficult because you're going to start having to make judgments on whether somebody can have that flag in their room or not. >> It's not fun. So let's just cool our heels until the school gets sued. Fair enough. Fair enough. >> So, we're passing the policy, but I mean, from a superintendent thing, I'm not going in and taking telling anyone to take down their their Kansas City Chief flag. I I'm just not uh what we'll do is is there's if there's things that are political. Yeah, I that's I'm going to try to react to those as best as we can, but decorations I I just >> the policy just simply says the same thing as the statute. >> Basically, >> yeah, >> they should take that cheese
055leg down depending on how long they've been a fan. >> Yeah, it's true. They might be a front. >> They're just a bandwagon. >> Their bandwagon. >> They shouldn't have it up. That should just be an interview. Just a question, >> right? >> See that Chiefs flag? How long have you been a Chiefs fan? since they started business. >> Well, I had someone ask about all of our advertising banners, you know, for businesses, >> you know. >> Oh, around the gym. >> Yeah, around the gym or whatever. Suddenly, we have an advertising banner. That doesn't say anything about advertising banners in there. So, just interesting. >> It's an interesting uh thing that we have to walk. >> And I mean, I'm just going to be status quo until we get kind of told otherwise on
056things like that. Things that are more obvious in there. I'll do my best to to >> and the and the stupid truism is you're not going to have a problem until you have a problem, right? You're going to have some particular parent who's upset with the flag being in the geometry class, right? So hopefully they'll be, you know, first and foremost the 1700 so that you can try to resolve it so it doesn't go any further and that the you know the gazette doesn't pick up on it or something like that. Does that >> I've had people that don't want the American flag because they think it represents conservative views. So, we shouldn't have American flags in there because that's kind of been adopted by the Republicans. And I have to explain to them it's
057the United States flag. It represents everybody. >> But to them, they, you know, it it doesn't. So, it's get into those weird arguments like that sometimes. >> I have a chain of testy question. >> Yeah. >> We had a recent 1700 complaint and before going to the superintendent, she gave us we were all submitted a letter >> at a board meeting. >> Yep. At a board meeting filling it in. So we got all the background before and we've referred it straight to him. He never got it. We referred it straight to him. Board chair gave it to him and we know the information. So inadvertently the whole entire board was notified of the situation and we've been receiving emails since that >> like complaint before he doesn't feel like daily but it feels like weekly
058at least. >> So I'm curious as to how we handle this situation. without uh >> so I'll be >> are we tainted because we had this information >> well and none of us including myself have actually and I actually Matt and I talked about it last night again like should I as the chair reach out and just let them know that I we have referred it back because she's under the impression because none of us have responded to her because she didn't go through the proper chain correct >> she believes that she's has not been like we've just like we went and just tossed it in the Gosh, cuz Matt's been formulating his response >> and it'll go out tomorrow. Well, another 30 days. >> So, I even thought we thought last night, well, >>
059maybe I'll just reach out to her, let her know, hey, we >> we have a policy for this. We didn't follow it. I sent it back to the right chain, you know, back down to the superintendent so he could evaluate it and determine what level it needed to go down to. Did it need to go all the way back down to the building or should he is he going to just handle it? he decided he's just going to handle it, which I think is his prerogative to do. Um, but is it appropriate that we had that? And then since we never responded and I have we haven't said anything procedural communication is entirely appropriate, right? So you can say the reason you know this is the process we follow get into the substance of whatever
060is going. So does your 1700 state or imply that everything can be appealed to the board after you? Yeah, it says it right in there that that's stage four it calls it or whatever. Level four. Level four. >> I think that's a um that's a a bad policy. Um so the history >> this is good >> the history of 17 literally the history of the number 1700 is after the last billing strike the board was divided and the old minority became the new majority on the board and the new majority didn't trust administration because they of the strike. It was you know time. So in that era um uh the the new board undertook a significant rewrite of the billings policies. I mean it's the Billings policies you look at them don't match what the
061off the shelf school boards and one of the new policies that they adopted was your version of 1700 because MTSBA picked up that version and put it into its standard. Well it quickly became apparent that it wasn't going to work. So about nine months later, the Billings board scrapped that and their policy, if you look at it, is it's complicated because it actually has um like policy review and claim review and all that sort of stuff. But the meat of the significant change, which I advise you guys to look at, is it's it's a roadmap. So if somebody has a complaint against a parent or an employee for example, it directs you to that policy in 5000 series that complain against employee who likely doesn't go that complaint likely doesn't go any further than you,
062right? Because if if you unless you recommend termination of employee, I don't know that it's appropriate for the board to review and second guess what you have done relative to employee conduct. for example, um um special education is another good example that never comes to the board because there's other ways that a special education concern is addressed um through OPI probably and that and that directs that. So, if you look at that policy, which has been adopted by a number of of districts around Yellowstone County, because I've been ditching about 1,700 for 20 years now, um it just doesn't make sense that every decision that eventually comes from the superintendent gets to be reviewed by you all. In fact, I think it was the Laurel board that had to had to second guess uh middle
063school girl um in school suspension. Does that ring a bell to anybody? So, so the I think it was the Laurel board. So you you it was a student dispute parents of it was it was literally sexist but I raised two daughters so I guess I can say this a feud amongst girls at middle school that happens and um that eventually was attended to and it was an inschool suspension and the parent ultimately peeled inschool suspension that had happened already occurred right and then this the board was presented with this they couldn't figure out what to do and eventually Actually, they called us in and Maril Lee, my former colleague, came out to try to sort this out. And to for the board, for example, it's kind of a, you know, extreme example for a
064board to sit and try to second guessess an inschool suspension that occurred a month ago is falling. I mean, it had no academic consequence to that child, right? It was just the parent didn't believe that their particular darling child would have done that. Therefore, it was a wrong decision and eventually was peeled up through it. So, so um my recommendation on 7800 is take a look at that and decide does everything in the district that comes through you superintendent need to come to the board uh for for >> So how do so how do we choose like let's take that suspension. So, I was in a district one time as a principal where the superintendent said, "If you're if if they appeal like I I suspend a kid, I suspend Donnie." And then then there's
065an appeal. Well, we we don't agree with that suspension. Um I'm going to appeal that to the superintendent. So, Donnie didn't serve any suspension. So, they I couldn't even sign if they cuz there was like a they had so many days in which to appeal. So, I couldn't sus even suspend the kid until after the appeal pro. It's like they missed their appeal window. So, well, you're not going to appeal it? All right. So, I'm going to go ahead and suspend her. Well, no, I'm going to appeal it to the superintendent. And then superintendent had, you know, 15 days to respond or 30 days, whatever. I don't remember what it said. So, he responded in that two or 3 weeks. And then he he upheld my suspension and then they appealed to the board. Well,
066the board upheld the suspension. So, we're like >> two or 3 months down the road and the kid got her two days of OSS or ISS, whatever the heck it was, and it I'm like, "Oh my gosh." >> Probably not the most effective way to discipline a student. >> You educators know better than I do about >> the kid was wandering around the school not suspended >> after having told the teacher to go f that's a good example. I would think in that particular case, the the relief valve, especially if it's an inschool suspension, which in my opinion is is I mean not my child involved but in school suspension is really no deprivation or a very minimal deprivation of an educational opportunity right they probably didn't miss any homework they probably >> they got
067all their work got credit for everything >> in one class so for that sort of thing to be even subject to appeal has fallen not that they couldn't go and complain to the superintendent but I think most instances would uphold the lower echelons decision making the building principle I would that they would be on the same page with that regard. So, but it makes no sense then under your policy that that in school suspension that hasn't yet been, you know, even implemented would come to the board for >> No, no, we haven't done that here. I've not told them to. We had one really weird instance where we did hold off. It was a really weird instance for an elementary kid, but normally it's they're not appealed number one, so it's not a real big
068issue. But >> well, one of the things you might in your policy review process, you might take a look at um as I said, the billings one is pretty bureaucratic because they have like a you know intermediate appeal thing and if it's the clerk is the gatekeeper and they decide so on and so forth but but I know like for example Elder Grove had had a a different version of that. I think Blue Creek has adopted the same version of it. >> So do you have do you have something we could look at? >> Yeah. Yeah, I think go online and take a look at Elder Gross I recall. Was was that Elder Gross? >> He's got Billings up there. I can I can take a look at it. I have to >> I don't
069want something too big involved in Billings. >> Billings and the Billings ones that evolved out of that original iteration which you guys have ended up then having you know a gatekeeper function for the clerk and so many days for the clerk to re respond and they do that but they receive I mean dozens of 1700s the course of I don't know if it's a week or a month or a year. Um, so they actually have spreadsheets of 1700s that are pending and who's responsible for responding to it and that sort of stuff. Just just a volume thing. Um, so they their system works pretty well. Is this elder? >> Oh, less. Is that >> Yeah. >> Oh, feels like this. And I don't even know if she abused. I guess she did. >> No, there
070was no abuse. I think I think >> she just she just she just tried to skip the line. Even though I think this particular individual probably understands the policy because she's had a lot of involvement with our district, >> but there is a potential special ed issue in this. >> So the board I mean she would have to and she'll tell the board about the special ed issue. She's not, you know, >> correct. >> Yeah. It's her choice to tell them about it. Uh but we're we'll follow what we have because that's what we have in front of us and we can't just change that willy-nilly. uh you know, but if she comes to the board with it, doesn't like what I tell her, um it comes to the board, I'm not sure what the
071board does about it. I mean, other than here's I'll tell the board here's how we're trying to handle it. Here's what we're going to do, but I don't feel like the board's qualified to tell me how to deal with special ed students. >> Nope. >> I I I honestly I don't I don't like like well you you need to do this, this, and this. Well, >> first of all, that might be legal or illegal. And I I don't I don't go to Renee or to Chris or whoever to get my special ed advice. >> I just don't. >> Well, I'm offended. >> So, here's a question for you in that case. >> Yes. So, if OPI is involved in the in the and we eliminate the appeal process, say in a special education situation from
072reaching the board, what is Matt's obligation to keeping us informed? Because if she doesn't like the answer, does he does he just say, "Well, she's did we wait? she's going to sue us, you know, and then and then then that's when the board finds out or how what's his obligation to keeping us in informed of situations that won't that that are not able to be appealed at the board level >> at his discretion? >> So, special education and section 504 both of which are, you know, anti-discrimination. Special education is kids who are eligible and 504 provides for accommodations for kids who have disability. Both of those are governed by specific laws that take them in a certain a certain direction. So for example, 504 if if a if a parent believes that the district is
073not complying with 504, they file a complaint with the office for civil rights, which may or may not exist tomorrow because it's in the department of education. Um or they can go to the Montana Human Rights Bureau claim about discrimination based on >> Well, they go to OPI if it's a special ed >> special education. They can go to OPI with a a complaint that says the district is not providing a free appropriate public education as they're responsible or more specifically they can go through a due process process where it it it pertains to the particular IEP. Now those are hyper techchnical um very heavy in procedure sorts of queries. So if if there is a legitimate that's not the right word, if there is a serious dispute over a child's rights under IDA or
074504, those should go through those other agencies, not here because I don't know I it would not be fair to a lay board like like all boards to come in and say here's what the child's identification is and this is the proposed IEP from the school board or from the school district and and here's what the parent wants and you guys have to decide what the you know the goals are in that particular IP that that that's a nightmare by any standard. So that's >> but how do we stay informed? Couple of things that I that confidentiality >> y >> and then our duty to govern the whole district which includes special education students. I understand that we shouldn't be the arbiter or the jury as you say, right? But what's how do we stay
075informed in those situations of what's going on? He how does he inform us in a non-public way for confidentiality? Do we have to have a close session meeting just for him to say, "Hey, we have this special ed student who's going through an OPI process. How do we stay informed of that and stay ahead of it so that he doesn't whammy us?" So like I I report to a board and how like myself in my work like I'm never ever ever ever going to surprise them with something. Never. So, how does he prevent us from getting surprised by this? Like, hey, I've been working on this for the last eight months and it's falling apart now. I'm gonna tell you, >> right? Or some litigation that suddenly now it's up to the board to decide
076whether or not to settle the litigation, right? >> And that does involve close sessions and all that sort of stuff. It it depends on how communication works from Matt to you all. if he if he calls you individually or sends out a kind of a generic, you know, just heads up. We received this, you know, a due process complaint that's going to be going through the process. You know, we've notified insurance uh council has been appointed. You know, I'll try to keep you informed of the process. And um so in larger districts, for example, the clerk every month in Billings gives just an ongoing list of of a number, right? There's, you know, seven ongoing complaints periodically. I mean once or twice every other year or so we do hold a closed session and we
077run through the list just for the board. Now that's Billings that has you know 16,000 students and however many people who want to be upset about things. So it it could happen that way but I mean you I mean knock on wood you've been spared a lot of these sorts of things in recent years. If it comes if something comes to blows, then it's entirely appropriate for the superintendent to arrange for a closed session litigation strategy, which is entirely okay, where you'd have the superintendent or the lawyer come in and say, "Heads up, this is what's going on, right? You know, this is the lawsuit just to keep the board informed, but >> but it has to get to that point. If I I have a 1,700 policy complaint or I I uh we've even
078had a complaint that went to OPI and and the parent doesn't want to go through a mediation process that OPI supplies and and uh they would like to have OPI come in and do their own investigation. um you know I don't necessarily come and talk to them directly about that student or that uh you know I'll let the board chair know that there that's the potentiality that there's a complaint and but I don't give them really any specifics of it >> and that's okay >> because there's no lawsuit or there's no >> um I mean we we've looked at that litigation example or exception to the open meeting law I mean pretty pretty liberally. So if we if we have you know somebody threatening litigation that we want to try to get some information from
079the board and sometimes we'll come into these litigation strategy sessions where no action is taken by the board or needed but we kind of get a sense of where the board is. The superintendent got to get a sense of where the board might be. But um and you know I guess it's a it's a it's a it depends on the circumstance sort of situation. If it's if it's litigation that could expose the district to significant financial ruin or significant public relations, then then that's the discretion that the superintendent has to exercise to how to keep people informed. The special education 504 stuff is, as kind of weird as it sounds, that's routine. That's standard business as usual for a school district. And no matter the size, you're going to have special education and 504 stuff
080just because the nature of it. Um, so you know, if you've been spared that, you're you're very fortunate. But in the normal course of business, those things are going to be working through. And never I've never heard of a school that doesn't have problems with parents of special ed kids who don't believe the district's doing enough or, you know, whatever. So, it's just >> before they or if they look like they're going to blows over something, that's when Yeah. and and you know we if we're working on something we try to keep our keep our head above the water to keep you know insurance informed so they know what may be coming down the pike certainly administration and depending on the nature of it coming to the board just to say and I' I've been
081in litigation meetings with this board in the past where may not be a settlement but it's just like we're heading this this particular direction or so it's case by case I guess >> so as a newbie. Um, I guess I kind of missed that when the night that they presented it, you had no reference point prior to that. >> I didn't see I I didn't even see the letter until I was given a copy. I when they walked around, I was sitting here and I kind of went like this when she was handing out letters and she walked right by me. I did not see the letter until uh after and so I received it the next day. So, and just for me, I'm still trying to kind of clarify communication because I know you
082got to keep things individual and you know, we only do things in public setting and so when I see emails like she has sent some or like even with regard to the library books and I have that nature of wanting to problem solve but feeling like you know everything gets posted but we don't talk about it and so so I think that's normal and I just need to get comfortable with that and assume that the chairman and the superintendent are kind of carrying out stronger roles. I guess if I would have a question is it okay to contact someone individually? >> Yes. That's the trick is is like when like Chris or I will send out an email that's just informational and we always kind of put on there and you remember Britney used to
083do all the time is you know don't respond to this is we're not getting into a conversation. This is informational. If you want to have a question you contact individually. We do it on text messages. If I send out saying hey the school closure today you know please don't respond directly to this text message. Call me individually if you have a question because I'm giving out information. We're not going to get into a back and forth on a email chain with every or a text chain with everybody. No, >> it's it's in my opinion, it's always appropriate for you to call the superintendent to say, "I heard this. What's this about?" Or call your chair and say, "What's what's the history of this particular thing?" Because entirely appropriate. Well, and like some of the stuff
084that's come to us by email, um it's like I have a concern about it because I feel like there's an agenda here and you know the last one about we're not around for this meeting and it'll be past 30 days before the next meeting and I mean it's just I'm like what's going on? You know what I mean? And I'm wired like that because of just being in the business and you know, but I don't I want to be so careful to, you know, the chain of command and the confidentiality. So, like that's something I wanted to gain out of this training is kind of a a clearer idea of I'm the newbie and I'm just a member, but things like this kind of bother me, you know? I mean, it's just natural that they
085would and and the letter specifically because we all ended up getting it. I mean, I'm identified in it. a claim is made about me and you know I'm not supposed to be part of the process and I'm like wow you know >> well and I think that this court too I mean we've had a lot of talk about communication as a board like how we want that to look and I'm not sure if we really went over that this time with the chain. >> Oh I don't think we have. Uh, so that's probably something we need to talk about, what that looks like for Chris as opposed to what it looked like for Britney. But, um, I mean, I think that the members on the board are, um, deserve that communication. Um, you know, we
086meet as chair, chair and vice chair and Matt, we meet every week. So, there's that. So it's like sometimes I think as chair and vice chair like we know things that just like because of that setting and it doesn't get passed along to the other members and I I mean I cuz I was vice chair under Britney as well and that's a concern I have is that that communication isn't trickling down and there's things that won't or can't or whatever but there are things that can be updated to the trustees that aren't at that meeting that I think would help h let them have a better picture of what's going on that it hasn't been >> done well. I don't think >> well an example like in this particular instance would be uh I plan
087on and I Chris is aware that I'm writing the letter and he's seen it so he understands that I'm responding on behalf of the superintendent and the principal. Uh I'm the one signing the letter. He's not signing the letter. Um, and I I'll I won't send that letter to the whole board, but I will I was planning on tomorrow informing the board that I have responded within the 30 days. I've responded to this parent uh and and I've sent them a letter addressing, you know, the points that were made basically the points were made in the in the letter. >> And this this would be the appropriate time to kind of there's questions about changing the guard. How's how's how are you going to communicate what has worked in the past? What would you like
088to change? I mean, this is an appropriate time. You're meeting in retreat to hash being south. There's no business being connected. So, >> yeah. And I do I agree. I think I could have told I could have just sent out an email and said, "Hey, we we knew that it was forwarded and I think you all knew that it was forwarded to Matt, but I could have said, "Hey, he's was he's gathering information and preparing response." And then that might have alleviated some of I honestly thought it had been through the chain of command and it was at board level. >> Oh way >> to not know what we were doing with it was very >> and I just thought I'm so new I don't know what's going on. I'm still getting acclimated. But the
089other thing is you're a busy guy and you're a busy guy and that feeling of not wanting to bother you. >> Please bother us. Please bother me. >> The point is my phone number. You have my phone number anytime. >> Yeah. >> And you're not bothering me. That's just what that's part of the job. >> Yep. >> And I I got you as a contact now. So >> Oh, good. >> Last night Renee helped me out here and Kayla were like these numbers. >> There were a few I needed. There were a few I had, but yeah. >> Text me. Give me a call. >> Sure. I just, you know, I know what it's like. >> A letter is going out tomorrow. Certified mail uh in response. We're well under the 30 days. Uh, and
090I've, uh, the letter's been reviewed by the principal in question. The letter has been reviewed by student services director, and they've made their additions and subtractions on it. Uh, I just I CC Chroissant, so he's aware that I'm that I'm reacting to it. Um, and then it'll come for me and and they have the option according to our 1700 policy, whether it's poorly written or not, they have the option that of coming to the board. and what that looks like, but then we would sit down and say, "This is coming to the board and here's what it might look like." >> So, I I mean, you get to But I >> What if they show up to the next meeting and start reading their complaint? We stop it because of confidentiality of they're violating their
091own confidentiality. >> They're the parents of that child. Well, I know but we still have an obligation to protect our employees confidentiality. Correct. I mean that are involved. >> Say if they start specific and Christina did this and this that's when I go >> Yeah, I think you do. And you understand that the the privacy belongs to the child, not to the parent. So, so if they I mean this sounds odd to say, but if a parent comes in and starts telling you more about their child than you think reasonably should be done, I think you can stop them and say, "Whoa, whoa, whoa. This isn't the time or the place to do that." And if they start hammering on somebody that's, you know, an employee of the district, but seems kind of out of
092bounds, then you can you can stop them and refer them to the process that they should follow, right? That said, your public employees are fair game for public criticism, right? Um, and even if if you seems pretty harsh, for example, coaches can be criticized pretty pretty vehemently about their their coaching and their decisions and and the public has a right to say those things because of the position that your coaches are in. Kind of the higher you are in the food chain, in my opinion, the the thicker your skin needs to be. So harsh criticism can be leveled against your superintendent and probably should let that person say as much as you know as you possibly can. If they get vulgar or violent or rude then then the decorum of your meeting has been violated
093and you can stop them or time limits. If you've got a lot of business to do that night set some time limits so >> scramble on for too long. So if she comes in here on Monday next the following so the next board meeting and starts specifically discussing her child's IEP and the ways it's been violated. I should stop that because >> this is not the appropriate time or place to address that >> because she said she her letter is very specific and targeted and she she said in her last email that she's going to discuss she's going to read that that letter verbatim in a public meeting. And so my concern with that is is that she's identified me as someone who has denied her child services in the past when I was principal
094at West and that I should be recused of. So my question is I mean is that legit and is >> there's no vote. You're choosing from what I don't know. >> Yeah. >> And it's this it's this body's determination. I would think even if it gets to 1,700 at the board level to say you should >> so what's what just so I understand what's the nature of her complaint that that >> the complaint basically states that uh that she doesn't feel like the IEP has been followed for example um oh so her child and I'm going to use this as an example because I don't want to address anything directly about the kid but uh you know let's say that there's an issue with the uh we'll say the kid's deaf. Okay, it's not the
095case here, but let's assume that for a minute. Well, schools provide certain things for a deaf student. Very specific uh uh you know, but we can't find that teacher. So, we've contracted some some uh you know, from the Montana School for the Deaf. We've contracted someone to come in and help us with that. So, they do some online things and help teachers try to adapt. and we have a aid that comes in and works with them a few hours a day on on things. Um but uh you know but we can't find this teacher though we continue to advertise for them. Well, that's one of the complaints is we don't have that. Another complaint is is that you know the IP hasn't been followed through with and and frankly you know there there are some
096issues and I and I address that and and say you know this is what I think we've done wrong through my conversations with people. Um, here's here's what we want. Here's what we're trying to do in the future. Here's how I will help monitor it. Here's how the principal should help monitor it. Here's what I'm going to expect from these people. Here's what you can expect. Uh, and and try to so that so there's just issues with uh with that. Some of the complaints just kind of vaguely go back 10 12 years, 10 years, 8 years, 7 years. I'm not addressing those really. I I don't know how to address something that happened seven or eight years ago. So, there's just some general frustration about you don't have staffing, you're required to have this specialist,
097but you don't. Uh, that's a violation. Um, you're required to do this, but you have it. That's a violation. Well, if I could find that person, I would. You know, >> it seems completely out of order that she would take that complaint to the board. Um, I mean, one >> Well, I I'll give you just a tad a little bit more feedback. there was a complaint made to OPI and both sides agreed to go to a mediation. So, we had a good mediator coming from OPI. We agreed on a mediation. We signed it. Um, again, some case manager issues showed up that didn't follow through with and and so I feel responsible for that because I'm overseeing the school. The principal feels some responsible that service director. Yeah, they feel responsible for that. Yeah, it
098was the case manager that might have blown some of those things, but we all feel a responsibility for it. We want to take that and then try to make it better. So, so there's been an OPI mediation. Now, she could still go back to OPI and do a fullblown investigation complaint and there she refuses mediation and says, "No, I want this investigated." She still can do that and she probably will. Um, but >> I don't No, I mean it just it um OPI still has jurisdiction over that issue even under the med if the mediation agreement isn't being followed. OPI is the enforcement mechanis that >> and and um so let's say she brings this complaint to the board, right? And you you support the superintendent's conclusions. Um she still could go to or or
099if the board says, "Well, now we think the parent is right. Superintendent go and do that." She could still go to OPI. So that's why I think that's a good example of of something that really shouldn't come before the board because there's a different way better way I guess different way to address those concerns about you know what's in an IEP and implementation of an IEP. That's >> well the board I'm not sure what the board can even really do in a case like this. There's nothing to vote on. There's no action item that says yeah we should have done that. I mean, they may look at what I've said I've laid out in front of them at this hearing potentially um and say, "Well, here's yes, those are all the complaints." And they're and
100they here's my I at that time I can give them the letter specific letter that says, "Here's how we're addressing these." They may look right at the parent or me and say, "Yeah, this all sounds pretty good." I mean, that's and then and then I guess they go to OPI. So, I'm just not sure what this board does in these situations. >> And that's that's going back to the 1700. That's the problem with 1700. It says any decision the superintendent can be appealed to the board and that puts the it puts questions before the board that shouldn't be there and it puts the board in an awkward position to have to make judgments over whether a kid's IEP is appropriate and just complied with. That's Yeah, that's >> I can't help but think that it
101might have something to do with public ridicule. And that's where I wonder if just this particular person comes in in two weeks from now, hands me a comment card, is it appropriate for me to say, listen, I've read your letter. The sensitive information in here regarding your child cannot be said in this meeting, I will stop it. Is that appropriate for me to say? >> Yeah, I think that's appropriate because um I mean >> just get into it. >> Well, that's >> we can just get into that question, I guess. Yeah, we made it to page we made we made it halfway through stage three for Nile therapy halfway through page three. >> Some of the stuff talks on the next chapter so we can >> we'll jump ahead because I think it's helpful. >>
102Oh piece. >> Yeah. >> Where is that? >> Uh page >> oh 14 maybe after page 57. Page 57. Before I jump past it, I'll I'll make reference to page 47 through 56. Um, I'm changing gears a little bit, but this is a list that's put out by uh the Montana Association of School Business Officials, which is MASBO. um we include it just because we feel like it's a good reference uh point as to an example of what is being handled on that day-to-day basis. So when we're talking about 10,000 ft um you know on day-to-day if you go through this list every single one of these things has to be accounted for by somebody at the district level and it just kind of gives you a perspective of all the things that are being
103uh attended to on a day-to-day basis. It's a it's a good list. Um, and it's a good tool. I don't know how more how recently it's been updated. Donnie and usual. >> Yeah, it was reviewed in the past year, but I think it could still use a little more. >> So, it just is a it's a good tool for superintendent business office, particularly in small schools where we're talking about two people, the superintendent and the business manager clerk to to go through and make sure that there's clarity on who's doing what. So, but it's a really good reference to show you what happens on a day-to-day basis. For those of you who aren't familiar with how school district, >> all right, chapter 2, we made it. >> We skipped 53 pages, but we eventually made
104it. So, I'll touch briefly on kind of the underlying constitutional provisions. Montana is again rare in its constitution. We have one of the youngest constitutions in uh the United States. >> 1972 they created a new constitution for Montana. In that constitution it expressedly um includes two provisions that uh you see on a day-to-day basis regarding uh public meetings. So you have the right to right of participation and the right to know. uh you see those both in public comment and through your public meetings. So people have the right to come make public comment, they have the right to sit back there as fulfilling both of those rights. Um and sort of at odds with that or uh potentially in competition with that is the right to privacy. We're one of like 14 states that have
105an explicit right to privacy um that the constitution grants citizens of Montana. So in Montana, a citizen has the right to privacy and the constitution lays it out pretty nicely. It says, "The right of individual privacy is essential to the well-being of a free society and shall not be infringed without the showing of a compelling state interest." So that really kind of ties into how you judge that in a public meeting. So you have these things saying that the public has the right to know. They have the right to observe you, deliberate, and come to a conclusion. You also have the right to participate, but at odds with that is the right to privacy. So when we talked about confidentiality, for example, a student in your school will pretty much always have a right to
106privacy for things they did in your school. One, because of this, and two, because there's a federal law called Furpa that also grants them uh privacy within educational records and things of that nature. So, you know, when when you have that, and I'll get to the test in a little bit, but sometimes those come to odds, and it sounds like, you know, your example is a perfect one. Does does that student have a right to privacy to not have things um discussed that would otherwise be private in a public meeting? It gets weird, especially with like parental rights and what kind of rights a parent has over a student. But Montana also has an interesting constitutional provision that essentially says all of the other provisions apply to minors. So I think it's provision 15 of
107the constitution says that every single right that's bestowed in this constitution also applies to minors. So if you read those two together, the right to privacy would equally appro apply to a minor as it would to anybody else. Um so you know talking about things at odds but there again you have something at odds right does the parents um right over their child outweigh that child's constitutional right to kind of things you're battling our position is that you know once you own or ring the bell of something confidential that can't be unrgung right so if they're sitting there talking about things that are otherwise private in your public meeting and um you don't put a stop to it. There's no way to wind that back. Um so it's often our I think it's both of
108our positions that it's probably within your right as a board chair to put a squash to topics about a child um that could be private about that child >> and even if it's the parent and that's that's where you get to Chris use your discretion as the deciding officer, right? And it's it's kind of a crunch, right? It's the parent is standing up and talking about child's academic progress or disabilities and it's just like you know that it ain't right you're standing in a public meeting with you know telling us about that particular child even though you're the parent keep in mind that that child has the right to privacy as well that I'm not convinced be waved by the parent given the nature of the constitutional right >> so you you alluded to then
109a coach or a superintendent or a principal or something that because We're employees of the school district. We give up that right to privacy. >> Um, >> so so we so I don't have a constitutional right to privacy >> about certain things. So asterric asterisk the Montana Supreme Court has said people that are employed by public agencies depending on the position or what's called a position of public trust. Um, for schools, school teachers certainly, clerks, most likely, superintendent, principals, those kind of things. Your janitors, for example, might not hold positions of public trust. That one's maybe more iffy, but within that p position of public trust, things that go towards um your dut or your duties or your ability to uh perform your job functions, those kind of things. Um, confidentiality is essentially waved. you
110don't lose all confidentiality. So if you you know for example you missed 30 days last year but you missed 30 days because of a medical condition you still have confidentiality in that medical condition. Um, but a better example is, you know, you I don't know good examples. You crash the Laurel Suburban into a house cuz you were DWI, right? That goes to your ability to do your job that's not confidential in itself. Something you, you know, you push a kid against a locker or something that's directly related to allegations or conduct um >> while I'm doing my job. >> Yeah. So that would be I would have to allow someone to come into a public meeting during public comment section and say Matt shoved my kid against the locker and I wouldn't stop that >>
111whether that alle so that's a completely unfounded. I could come in here and accuse him of anything I want completely unfounded and then walk throw that grenade in here and then walk out the door. >> Maybe not. >> Doesn't that undermine public trust in this person? So >> even though that allegation is categorically wrong, >> that's the problem. The challenge of presiding over a public meeting is because the determination to whether to close a meeting, stop conversation rests solely with you and the law. And so suddenly now you have to be in your own mind balancing whatever right of privacy you think M might have in a decision including whether it's a private privacy against false accusations versus these very strong provisions in in the in favor of the public right to participate. So if
112if if you have somebody come in and say I want to lodge a complaint right here right now in front of God and everybody that the superintendent slam my kid. So, if you could stop and say, "Okay, wait. Let's handle this the appropriate way. If we have a complaint procedure, I would like you to put your complaint in writing and we'll make sure that it gets to the proper channels." Right? Rather than letting the length be aired, especially for the first time, >> you know, if you look over and Matt's going, "What the hell is going on?" You're going to stop and say, "Wait a minute, we got appropriate procedures." If if you have um I'm trying to think of a good example relative to your superintendent um um you had a grievance that the
113that the union filed against the superintendent over some employee discipline matter, right? And the union decides to come in and criticize the superintendent over his management style, then then that's fair game. It's probably going to be fair game. And the danger of shutting somebody off is that violation of public uh participation provision. So what you're balancing is the right of privacy which the courts have said if you hold if you hold a position of public trust and I believe anybody in a school everybody in a school holds a position of public trust because all of your employees have unsupervised access to your students, right? There isn't there isn't an employee in the district that doesn't have access to buildings and you know whatever. So every in my opinion every person in public school is a
114position if the information being sought or the comments being made go to that person's ability to do their job then the public's right to know or the right to articulate outweighs whatever subjective expectation of privacy might might have. Um and that's that's I mean I'm not happy with that inclusion. I think it's unfair, but it's the way that the Supreme Court has interpreted these provisions tied together um through a whole series of cases. And we know specifically that teachers hold positions of public trust. And so if you have, for example, if you have a teacher termination hearing in front of you about a teacher's misconduct, most if not all of that hearing is going to be held in open session. The only time it would be closed is if there's a privacy interest that clearly
115outweighs that public right to know. So, for example, you're going to hear from a student witness, which is horrible. I wouldn't ever recommend that. But let's say you're going to have to have a student come in and testify. You would close the meeting relative to that student's testimony, not because the teacher's privacy interest, but because the student's privacy interest. So, are you good at juggling? >> Well, he's he's it puts it puts the board chair in a very interesting situation. >> Normal >> because because what if he allows something that opens up the district to be sued by the employee? Well, you this went too far. You allow something you shouldn't have allowed. He's he's he's not I mean, that's a really tough situation. And I give you just a simple example that never came
116before the board. It it turned out to be something that seems like it's pretty minor. I got a a letter addressed to uh Laurel Administration and school board. It's just a just an anonymous letter written in pencil. I no no return address. What the heck is this? I open it up and it's a letter addressed to the board and Laurel administration and it's typed out a page long and it accuses me of being at work drunk and drinking on the job. Well, anyone that knows me remotely, I don't drink. I not social drink. I don't drink ever. I've never been drunk. I don't didn't drink at my own wedding. I don't drink at all. I mean, I refuse to drink Diet pop. I drink only Coke. And that's about the extent of of of and
117I don't I put uh sweet tea. I don't drink just regular tea. So that's the extent of my drinking. And I thought to myself this so I I showed it with the board chair. I showed the board chair and and and I didn't I wasn't cuz it was addressed to the board. So I said here's here this letters addressed to you. >> Yeah. 100%. >> Yeah. So that's a worthless piece of paper. >> It it is. Yes. But that's something that someone could have walked in here and read that out loud >> and and and >> then I I think so like so >> is it okay >> their character especially in something that's just kind of out of the blue >> say I'm drinking the job that I say work >> so to help
118me understand my arbiter role say there's a comment it says superintendent complaint because we have a what are you what are you here to comment about is it appropriate for me to say what are you going to say? >> Yeah. Yeah. And what you can do is is >> bring that person up here and say or take him out in the hall and say >> recess >> I need you I need to understand what you want to say. >> Let's let me and I'm talking to you about this to make sure we handle it in a way that's going to be most effective. >> He has to prevent something happening where we could be sued from. >> Let me give you know kind of the nightmare. Let me give you the case. Wolfpoint Public Schools.
119Um, by October, November, a new teacher had self-destructed and the superintendent brought a recommendation to terminate a brand new teacher. Just it was just a disaster all the way around. So, the um the the recommendation was based in part on the teacher's interaction with students, not like sexual misconduct, just lack of supervision. And the teacher didn't want to, you know, walk them to the other building or go on field trips. it was just just st you know it was just bad performance. So the superintendent said well you know the the bulk of my recommendation is based on how she interacts with students. So the board chairman says okay that sounds like students that's privacy I'm going to go ahead and close the entire hearing because we don't know at what point we'll be hearing about
120a student and what time we'll be hearing about the teacher. So I'm going to close it. The teacher objected and said I want to record this because you're treating me poorly. I'm going to record it. and the board chairman said, "No, you can't." Um, so they went ahead and had the meeting, but they reconvened. They called me and I'm on my deck and I'm like, "Okay, now back up. What's going on?" So, so lo and behold, then the teacher filed a grievance, of course, because she was fired. And then one of the things she filed in district court was a violation of the open meeting law because they she said that the board shouldn't have closed the meeting without an articulated privacy interest to protect. The Supreme Court looked at that and said, "Yep, that's
121right." So before you close a meeting, you need to have been able to identify a privacy interest that clearly outweighs the priv right to know. So that means sometimes these meetings are going to be closed and then open and opened and then closed and you as the chairman have the ability to take as a sidebar and say, "Okay, what are we going to be hearing about this? I need to decide whether I should close this or leave it open because it puts a burden on you." So that Woolpoint case again kind of bad circumstances and I don't blame the chair. He was brand new. He's like I think we better close it because I don't know what students were going to hear, right? And um Supreme Court said no you can't do that. You have
122to have an identified privacy interest that truly outweighs a private private public right to know that case you close that part of the meeting and just open it. So it's what I what we try to do is if we're involved in it, we try to anticipate that. We try to help the chairman script it out so that we actually kind of orchestrate it in a way that's not cumbersome awkward because >> so should we not be closing when we do evaluations of Matt and >> so >> uh an asterisk to the asterisk which doesn't really make sense there's there's a case in Montana that says um high ranking public officials can be evaluated in close session and the case specifically related to university presidents being evaluated. Uh we extrapolate that down to say a superintendent
123can likely be evaluated in close session by the board. Um again, it's it's kind of a weird >> the rationale is sound. The Supreme Court said, you know, there's in that case there's no allegation of misconduct. It's just a standard evaluation, right? And that a frank evaluation is in the public's interest in that instance. So we're going to let you close that. So Matt actually in that case has a recognized privacy interest in his evaluation that you can wave if you want to have your evaluation open session or you can keep it closed and it's but I we hold on to that kind of precariously because the case law goes definitely in favor of the public right to know and participate in public entities and you just it's the nature of doing >> so he
124was counting up for renewal and we had six parents in here throwing allegations might behoove us to leave his his meeting open because there's known allegations or am I thinking of that wrong? So, so for the public comment on the superintendent's job performance evaluation and contract negotiation should I should put an asterisk under asterisk under asterisk for contract negotiation. Contract negotiation discussions is open to the public evaluation is not but the public has a right to express an opinion about the superintendent's performance in that agenda item. Right? So they can stand up and say stupid things or >> prior to it being closed, they can go ahead and hear their public comment. >> Yeah, you could in in closed session if you want to do that, but you bring them in one at a time
125and listen to what they say or you can hold it in open session. So >> okay, >> it's just it's it's a tight rope, but I think what the Supreme Court is instructing us is those of you who employed by are employed by a school district or those of you in public service, there's not much privacy you can expect in that. So, so this h this happened uh not that long ago actually. So, I had a a parent come in and want to record uh a conversation and they were very open about it and said, "Hey, I'd like to record this. You're a public official according to this law. You can record that. Uh I'm informing you." So, tell us a little bit about that. And then I've had parents who clandestinely wanted to record
126because I'm a public official performing a public duty. They wanted to go ahead and record be clandestinely. So talk a little bit about that. They might that might happen to one of these guys. >> So you have the right to uh record secretly or publicly a publicly. I have the right to record that. And I have the right to stream it by the way. That was another interesting development. >> You have the right to stream it. >> Stream. Yeah. So I could sit here right now with my phone if I knew how to do that. >> I don't. I could just sit here in a public meeting and stream the whole thing in spite of the fact that how you guys are handling your public participation part of it. Um, but you cannot secretly record
127a private conversation. That's a crime. Um, nor is it permiss permissible or nor is your is your conversation, Matt, with that person subject to recording. So, you could say, "No, I don't agree to having you record this conversation. The conversation is not going to happen. I don't agree. So I don't know what source of law they think they're pointing to to say that you're a public official, therefore I get to record you. That's not that's >> So Montana, both sides must agree. >> Absolutely. And you need to you need to disclose that you're recording it. That's why when you call the credit card company or the bank and says this call is recorded for quality assurance and training purposes, It's to avoid being charged with a crime. And maybe they >> Uh-uh. As a banker,
128I pick this. I've never used a call for that reason. >> Your lawyer wrote that statement for you. So >> I've never used it for any of those purposes. Only for quality assurance for training purposes. To be truthful, the only time I've ever heard a call I can complain has happened and I have to make sure we're not going to get >> So I can tell my principles in my back to school admin meeting that that you're under no obligation. If someone wants to record, you can end the meeting right there. even an IEP team meeting, right? I mean, it is official function, but people who want to record it. Generally, what I say is, you know, if they want to record it, fine. Record it. Just make sure somebody's sure is on your side
129is also recording it in case we have dueling transcripts later on. Right? It's kind of one of those things. Is it a hilt to die on, right? If if it's if it's something that that you don't care how they're going to record it or or that you can say I'd like a copy of that or I'm going to record it myself, you know, then that's entirely appropriate. Um and you know, >> but then I'm consenting. But then I'm consenting. What about everyone in that room? So I'm recording an IEP. We have a two teachers and I have a a psychologist and and a you know a principal and the parent and so what if the principal says I I don't want to be recorded. Yeah, I mean they they could object and in which case
130you have to decide whether the principal is still part of a team or not. Um many districts um I don't know about >> what if the IEP what if the case manager doesn't want to be recorded and they're the ones leading the meeting. >> So um so some districts actually record the meeting and actually have a transcription of it automatically done. I'm thinking of the Billings district. That's what they routinely do to it's a help to the team but it also cuts off the conflict with the parent, right? Um, and and what you want to make sure is that everybody knows that it's being recorded. And if you don't want to be recorded, then you don't participate in it. Doesn't mean the meeting's not going to happen. >> You're just not going to participate. >>
131Participate. And that's, you know, if you're somebody on your direct supervision, you're going to say, "No, you sit down and participate. We need you on this team." >> So, is that a policy thing? Like, we would have to have a >> policy. I don't think it's necessary. >> We don't have anything in policy. >> Well, we don't now, but it's >> I don't know. The problem with stuff like that is you can't just like the law, you can't anticipate every variable that's going to happen. But, you know, I mean, it's a practice of the district to record and transcribe IP team meetings, which is very helpful. And I frankly, I kind of like the fact that board meetings are now recorded because I I was up at Zori last night and I had to talk
132about what they did in June and I went back and watched that part of it. It was great. Could listen clearly. I could hear it. I could take notes. >> Helped us out in a few of those types of instances where I could do a sent something to you or to to Lance and just say, "Hey, go to this minute and please listen to this minute. Make sure we did this right." >> Yeah. Just it's good. And it put it takes pressure off your minute taker to have that. So you guys you still keep your written minutes, right? You don't your recording is not your official minutes. >> No. No. We still have the average >> because your your minute your official minutes are a lot less than what you would end up having, you
133know, who was there, what action was taken, you know, the the meeting tonight is recorded as lawyers came and talked about all this. You're going to record. >> Yeah. I'm just gonna say who's here. >> Yeah. And they killed us full of [Laughter] I've known Julie for a long time. Sent through some interesting meetings. >> Oh, yes. >> Robert. Sure. Yeah. >> Yeah. That's a board member now. >> Oh, yeah. That's right. Yeah. He was here for a while. He >> was a middle school assistant principal for two years, I think. Three years, maybe. Yeah, that >> I don't know. He slowed up where he >> was down in Harden for a while, but he moved into Billings district. >> I feel like this has been helpful just because we've I think all of us
134have been in the on the border around boards enough. 's been in the in a district setting before and we know like the date the routine stuff is like you have a a vanilla meeting like we did yesterday that's easy to go through you make sure you you know you're following the RERS rules pretty closely and you just kind of maintain and that's not bad it's this stuff that's going to get us >> but I think I like the idea of just saying you know what we need to recess for a minute here is saying let's recess collect our thoughts here. If we have to make a phone call, >> you know, uh I've called Jeff at 8:00 at night on things. So, if we have to make a phone call, let's make that phone
135call and recess, talk to that person. >> Yeah. >> And and I I think that's something, too. We don't have to just let this get crazy. >> Everyone take a breath. We're going to recess and make sure we're we're protecting everyone's rights. >> It's very helpful to be able to call a recess whenever you want in your discretion. So if public comments gets heated and everybody's agitated and everything, just say we're gonna >> slow down. >> Breaks the energy of the room. Um, yeah, that's that's the way to do it. >> I mean, Julie and I talked about that because what was your chairman's name? >> Oh, Jerry. >> Jerry. >> Yeah. >> Oh, we had that before a heated discussion we knew we were going to have for firing a superintendent. I said, Jerry,
136okay, here's the deal, right? If you feel your blood pressure rising, you're going to take your recess and we'll go in the hall and walk around a little bit because >> Yeah. And he did and and there was somebody at the podium going. So, we're taking a recess. I didn't know if I was going to get it back after that, but >> I think that's good. That's just good for me to know that because sometimes I felt like especially during the book the book discussions that we had there was a lot of significant repetitive things. Um and to know that as a chair I could sort of slow that down or stop it. We had one particular individual who even after the board voted to remove the book would come up to the stand and
137recite the exact same letter every single time even though it was and it was an affirmative to get rid of the book which we confirmed by removing it. They would get up and say you need to remove this book and we're like the action just occurred where we did remove it. the motion's on the table to remove it right now and where I could say hey let's if you're going to read the same letter again appreciate your commentary we don't >> copy of it we'll put it >> yeah we have a copy of it thank you very much >> so to maintain that control the decorum and the timeliness of the meeting I think also >> yeah time time limits are great be consistent right so don't don't let people routinely go over and let
138you know your favorite person go over the the thing about board chairs and board meetings. Um you all are operating a public school system, right? And so if you're a parent, part of what you do with your children is teach by example, right? You show them. So if you can show your schools and your community that you're governing in a way that is appropriate, then that sets a huge important message. And so in here I actually wrote the one year I I was involved in six different firings of superintendent. Um, and it was the same year for Framberg. And it was just I finally got this like so I wrote down I said, "Okay, here are the rules of civility, right? This sounds a little preachy, but running a public school, you know, everybody deserves
139some respect. Your employees, the public has a right to participate. You know, everybody has some respect. And here's the rule of the road." And if you kind of get that sort of high and mighty, that's a little bad example. It should put people in a different perspective, especially if you call them on it and say, you know, we're running a public school here. We're not going to just you're not going to tolerate vulgarity or violence or slamming fists or >> that, you know, how you do your business in my opinion is as important as the substance of the business you're doing. So, if I'm curious, if he had a situation that just went totally off the rails, can you recess to the next day? >> Yeah. Make sure everybody knows that. >> Does it have
140to be renoticed though or >> Well, it's I don't extreme example. >> I mean, it is extreme, but I'm curious meeting. So, you're recessing to assign time certain. So if you and sometimes that's happened where either it's getting really late and things aren't you know getting done or you need to go do some additional research bring back you can recess. What I always suggest is make sure you post on the the website you know the meeting from last night still in session it's been recessed until 5:00 tonight so everybody can know what's going on. But you can do that and and sometimes that's that needs to happen >> if you're pushing till 11 o'clock. >> Yeah. comment section. >> Been in meetings that go that long and it's like no good decisions made after. >>
141Yeah, we even last night we were kind of getting to the end of of probably good decision making at that time. >> It was so hot just running. >> It really was. It's hot in here. We're human beings. Most of us worked all day before. Now we're here for four hours, you know. Um and I do think that low blood pressure low blood pressure low blood sugar and fatigue is not the way that it works to try. >> Yeah, >> it wasn't controversial. It was just volume just Yeah, we had 30 policies to review. >> All those all those policies that just came out was just volume >> and handbooks. >> And there was some handbook carried over from the last meeting that went four hours. I mean it's just a volume. >> No, it
142does happen sometimes. But if you get into the if you get in the bad habit of having long meetings all the time, um you can put things into place to say, "Okay, well, you know, just so you know, if the clock strikes 9:00 p.m., we're automatically adjourning until recessing until tomorrow for 5." That motivates people to get some stuff done so they don't have to. That's that's an extreme. >> I don't know if I mind that idea, be honest with you. We don't have too many that are >> I'd say we probably two hours. >> These were only because we didn't have we don't have a committee to take them to in the summer. >> I'd say really really really light agendas take us about an hour and a normal day is is a twohour
143meeting. I would say when you guys I'd say it's about >> meeting indicates you know healthy operation. If you have board members who want to argue over everything or or get into the the weeds on everything, then that's where you still have to >> not everything, just some things. We all enjoy it. And all of us have our little get in the weeds area, which is good because we're not all in the weeds about all things so we can help pull each other out of the weeds sometimes, which is good, I think. >> Yeah. >> And you know, I mean, you know, from your own experience, I mean, one contentious board member, I mean, every knows what we're talking about. I think your board was wound around the axle when he was because I mean
144he was forever complaining about the board. I mean he may even sued this board, didn't he? Did he? >> Yes, he sued himself. >> That's what was named. >> Were you named? >> It's a pleasure, isn't it? >> Oh, no. >> So, so you know those are very rare circumstances most people who are on boards are trying to do >> and and even I mean in some weird way I think Mike thought he was doing the right thing. >> He did. He he just has a weird way. >> He just at one point early in this whole interaction I've had with him, I took him to coffee to think that I could say I said, you know, you're smart and you've got good ideas and and many times you're right, but the way you approach
145it turns people off. >> It's like, well, yeah, but another thing, >> let me get my binder out. >> The what the what is lost by the how and and the what is you're saying is lost by how you're doing. That's very common for a lot of people because the end to them end the end justifies the means >> and and it's just lost. As soon as you start throwing out cuss words, people a lot of people just turn off and what you're saying is valid, but everyone just turns it off. >> Yeah. >> No one's going to listen to that. >> Which I think makes us all appreciate the cohesiveness of this board. not in agreement all the time, but in uh mutual respect and the drive to look after the school district. >>
146It's a good group of people. I mean, and and Chris, >> it is it's a really good group of people. >> You're not wrong. >> Well, it's it's one of the most thankless things you'll ever do in your life is serving on a public board. But I I truly believe that if every citizen served on something on a committee or a board or a we board or tax appeal board or a school board, it'll be a lot less complaining because when you realize how complex it is to try to operate an organization, it's never as simple as it is. >> But most people who like complain would never step up to do something. >> So, do you know much about uh uh protested taxes? Yeah, I represented this district in a protest. >> Okay. So,
147so just can I walk through just so the board knows is is we have we have a small amount of pro it's a good it's a six figure protest of taxes this year um by CHS and again it's not millions and millions of like the bond like they're not protesting you know $20 million that they're paying >> they only made a billion last year. I mean >> so so there's some issues. So, okay. So, they go ahead and uh they protest, let's say, let's say it's $200,000 and they protest those taxes, but yet we need that 2 thou because sometimes it could be a year or two before that's even heard. We need that $200,000 because I have to pay people. We have that money is necessary. take the board through how we go ahead
148and still request that money and what happens if they do get a tax break after we've already spent the money, >> which is exactly what happened here a number of years ago. So, you can apply to the county treasurer to get a certain percentage of the taxes that they paid under protest. Um, and the problem we had before was the county released too much money to to the Laurel district. Um, and so we ended up having to work with the county on a process of paying that back in because again it takes a long time before these things are actually process. >> How much how much can you ask from the county? >> I don't know. I'd have to look it up again, but it's a it's >> ask for all of it. >> Oh,
149okay. >> Immediately. Yeah. >> There's no waiting period. >> So we had that problem. The risk of I suppose is that if if they >> the settlement depending on the amount >> but if they settle and let's say they again tell me if I'm wrong but if they settle for that 200,000 and they settle well you only have to pay 100,000 the school does not have to pay back that money. >> I I think they well at least they did back in the day it it it what happened when this happened to me it's basically permissively levied and spread out to everybody else. >> Exactly. So, we don't say, "Well, we got to write you $100,000 check back to CHS or whoever protested." That money that CHS now it just CHS will pay their share
150of the that money because it goes back out to the public and gets redistributed amongst everybody. They can't. So, if everyone decided to protest their taxes in Laurel, well, the school would have shut down. We'd have no money. The answer is no. >> We we we'll get our money. Um, it just it just down the road we you may end up paying for somebody else who protested their taxes. You might pick up a little bit of a chunk of it as a homeowner or a business owner. >> And ironically, you can operate stay in operation with a negative cash balance. You just can't overspend your budget authority. >> Correct. >> Oh, >> yes. >> Well, how's that working? >> Is that just the way the works? So that must have changed because Go ahead. >>
151Because you bank through the county, >> right? >> Warrants can be registered by the county. That's how your money's good. >> Essentially covering it. >> So we could we could run in deficit indefinitely if we wanted to. >> Well, we can't outspend our budget authority. If we have a million dollar budget, you got to >> eventually the county commissioners are going to come and say, "Hey, I had a situation." Well, >> we're not inside. We're we're underneath our budget authority now, are we not? So we could so we could you want a couple extra teachers? Here you go. Here's 100 grand. We'll just run into rears for the next 15 years. >> Well, we don't have to do that. >> I mean, you know what I'm saying? But if we were >> they must have
152changed >> shadier district to our west or east. I mean >> here when that happened. >> I was here when the whole thing happened because when it first happened I wasn't here and that's when you had to wait a year before you could access the phone. >> It was just a percentage. legislature. No, I don't think so. But then the legislature took action and said you can access immediately and they did that because of Laurel. Laurel is very unique for 50% of their taxable value is in one taxpayer. >> Exactly. >> That protest >> happened in Cole Strip too. Cole Strip it's about 85 or 90% >> probably now too. But >> but I the reason I and again this is going back a long time. Max Lennington was the county's treasurer. I thought they
153had released too much of the protested money to the Laurel district and then that was the discussions we had on how to cure that. But but and I what I have in mind is that it was a percentage of the protested >> potentially the county could have released that might have happened in some step before me because then they continued to protest. >> Yeah. >> And then that's when the laws changed. county a tax relief on their equipment tax last >> because he can >> I remember >> when that happened >> there were like multiple years where we were having the conversation and they were trying to justify why they were protesting. You know, it was >> it had nothing to do with us. It had to do with how the state was valued. >>
154Well, what they're mad about too because tariffs, >> but but just so you know, if we if we we do have some protested taxes and it doesn't mean we have to figure out a way to to cut a bunch of people to make up for that money. That's just not how it works. We're promised this much money. That is our budget. And if they don't have to pay all their taxes, it's getting spread out to somebody else. But those taxes will come in. It's just who's going to pay it and they'll pay a percentage of that extra protest taxes that they get relieved and goes to everybody else. They'll pick up their percentage of it. >> Probably the biggest negative of the whole process is your um bond rating. You've got a huge tax already
155did affect us. >> Yeah. Then the bond rating >> look good for the bond rating. >> That's what put us down at A. That's what put us down at a on our bond last time. >> They specifically recovered from >> they specifically cited that as a as a significant financial risk. >> Well, we really hijacked a double and I >> we're here. >> Well, I feel bad for Niles. Poor Niles. He he had this song. He practiced this at home. >> He writings on his own and for some reason he dragged me out. And I always say just, you know, >> I know where it's made to halfway through page three. Started on page 57, but he never got anywhere. >> We never got past that. >> Sorry, we did hijack it, but I think
156it's been >> I thought this was very helpful. >> Very helpful. We didn't need We didn't need board 101. I I believe >> I would love to have back like honestly this was >> very helpful. >> I kind of to in truthfully I had told my wife like if this is board 101 I'm going to fall asleep. So I'm very glad that it turned into this >> conversation >> that I mean we really do consider these just conversation starters. I mean we can stand and just read a lecture. I mean that's horrible for everybody. But if you end up, you know, going into weeds and let's what's nice about one-on-one with a board is you're going to end up talking really about, you know, what's important about this as opposed to going into a seminar.
157We've done those as well. It's just not as much. >> Yeah, you guys seem to be doing well. >> Well, the timing was good for me and I think you just became chair recently. It's very helpful for me to kind of >> some of these things that I think I'm probably going to end up dealing with on Monday, two weeks from now. Potentially >> potentially. Uh but it's good to have that conversations like you said, so you can decide, okay, I'm not going to let you. >> It's nice to know that I have more control than I sort of maybe perceived that I did in that public meeting. sort of just trying to let it prevail and um maybe will help me discern that line better. So I like I like that. We appreciate it.
158Is there anything else you guys just thought we needed to know before we leave? >> Thank you for the chat. So I was wandering down the hall and and and this is Chad Blocklock who was a legislator from Helen from Laurel for many many years. You know anybody know Chad? He was kind of a political mentor of mine. I was in the legislature a long time ago when he was still in the legislature. So I asked Matt, I said, "What are you guys doing with the leftover thrown away?" I was like, "I don't know. Let me check. I don't even know who he is. I I didn't He used to live right across the street from West School." Oh, yeah. >> And as a second grader, probably I don't maybe it was fourth grade. We
159would get to go over to his house after each class and ask questions and he would tell us about >> and he was he was an educ. >> He was so I mean he was just such a nice guy. >> I never got to go to school. >> Good guy. He was very supportive of public education >> by the time you he died in he was running for governor in 1994. um I think it was 94 or 96 and Governor Rosco was running for re-election and Rosco carried what 70% of the vote. So he was kind of the sacrificial lamb on the from the Democrats and he uh he died driving on the road. He pulled over outside of Drummond and died of a heart attack. >> Sad day because he was he was a
160cool guy. It was really remarkable and he was very supportive of public education. So >> it's all yours. Enjoy it. >> Thank you. This Yeah. >> Should we hurry and dispose of it real quick? Make a >> reser already of it. >> Already surplus it already. >> We already did. We surplus this whole building already. >> Take some life. We got some chairs. >> I'll leave a $5 bill for the >> You can have one of these chairs cuz I want I told Matt yesterday >> be nice to get some. >> We need to get some uh new chairs with that FF& money that we got in the bond chair. Well, thank you guys very much. We appreciate you. Thanks for being here and thanks for these guys are super responsive to me on the
161phone or emails. Uh it's it's it's frankly really nice to work with these gentlemen. >> Well, we for a long time, >> right? And I and I'm positive and I know it's a conspiracy theory, but I'm positive that uh that whenever I call Larry, he times these meetings. He times him. I know I'm getting charged by the minute. And that guy, he can go on for a long time. Like a simple yes no question. >> Oh, and and if you're in a meeting with him and he starts getting up and walking around, then they know you're screwed because more like scholars professor. >> So, and I I'll say Larry, you're not charging me by the minute here, are you? Because I said that's you got to it's not fair to charge me. >> My question
162you answered the in the first five minutes of our conversation. >> He's our senior partner. He's 82. >> Yeah. And he's >> great guy though. Great guy. >> 45 minutes. Yeah. >> He's a great guy. He's a great guy. >> Been doing it a long time since the since the 70s, I think. >> I'm just going to run a laboratory real quick if you don't mind. >> So, you got more things to do. Are we are we >> Well, we're going to have we have a there's another potential action item on here. Didn't we put that on there? >> Yes. >> Uh there's a potential action item in regards to our uh our yearly goals. We talked about him briefly last night and if they want to accept we can put it off to the
163next meeting to you guys, but this is um just we put it on here just in case we wanted to vote on it and and after a discussion we can go on to the next meeting. >> Yeah. >> Thank you very much for coming tonight. Appreciate it. >> Nice meeting you. >> Yeah. >> Thank you. Check that come back. >> I wondered if she was still on there. I hadn't heard her kids for a little while. >> She muted. >> Maybe they >> That could be. Also, >> I love hearing them though. >> Yeah, >> I was afraid. >> It was fun background. [Laughter] Levi's probably struggling. >> Should we? >> So, Julie, one thing I wanted to do last night and I got a little fried towards the end, but I really appreciated your
164report, the financial reporting. >> Oh, good. >> Um, that was just very helpful for me. And I did I have one question that I would maybe ask. >> You know, I was trying to get a sense of like it on the one where it talks about the tuition law and so sometimes money is owed to Laurel and sometimes Laurel owes other districts because of where kids are at. Y >> and I was thinking it was like a flat figure, but then the map wouldn't really work. Um, >> no, it doesn't. >> So, how is the amount figured? >> Well, is it the location? >> OBI is Yes, OBI has got calculation for that. And so, you put it into your mage. You put the name, you know, it comes up the name and anything. You
165put in how many days they attended and then they they automatically cast. >> So you're actually getting you're getting an amount for each student involved, >> right? And it's a different amount. No, depending whether they're in high school. So, I figured it either has to be a different amount or my mouth. >> Yeah. My school too because I noticed like, you know, um lesion they're a lot less than than what they are. It's >> Yeah, it's different. It's different calculations on each one. >> Everybody reporting is half days and depending on the grade like it's elementary, I think it's half days. If it's above that, it's It's per hour like they >> Yeah. >> So yeah, that's why they're different. >> Uhhuh. >> Yeah. >> Um [Music] so we looked over this yesterday. Good job.
166I'll have to go back and look at my notes. >> I kind of always view these as like the ongoing. You can't ever check one of these off. >> Yeah, >> probably not. >> Because the job's never done in these areas. >> So, it's it's more really Yeah. And really broad focused goals. So it's like, okay, yeah, none of them can be checked off. So it's, oh, should any be added or should the verbiage be changed? >> I don't know if you're it's not checking off. It might be refocusing on >> Yeah. >> keeping and I think it's important that we look at them every year and read over them and like, >> are we do are we I mean, >> are we doing any >> are we doing this? I mean, it sounds great
167to say we have this goal, but if we're not even like attempting to meet the goal, >> then it's not really a goal. >> I mean, it sounds great, but if we're not doing it, then >> how are they incorporated? How are these incorporated into the school level tools? I think that's a better question >> because you guys don't really do these things. I mean, yeah, you you do some community outreach or community, you know, hey, you know, coffee with the board member. So yeah, there's a there's but you guys play a very small role in this. This is really what is being done at the school level. This is the direction to give the school. So when I give this to the principles in the fall, for example, and say, "Hey, as you work
168on your school goals, there's something about communicating and involving parents and let's let's make sure those things are involved in that." So you're addressing these things. So that's >> just look at number one. If you look at those four bullet points and that sort of header statement, I think they're doing that. I think we're doing that. And I think if you start, you know, our literacy curriculum, our new math programs, >> you know, all the this is really a lot of the work that Charlotte is working on and doing, the things that come through leadership and learning, I think all sort of sit in this this goal. I don't but to Rene's point I think it's good to go through them because it's like okay pulse check are we aligned with those is is this
169what we're doing should we add something to it >> should we add something to it and the new thing we're >> which I mean I think that our admin does a good job of using the strategic plan to drive their go I mean >> but is this new thing does it really fit >> I mean it might be a wonderful thing to do but if it doesn't fit in here. Do we need to change something in here or is that something that isn't a priority? >> Yeah, cuz these are 10,000 foot goals. >> So something should if we're going to do something, it should fit inside that, but is it we don't want to get too specific in these goals because that's not what this is. That's what Matt and his team do is get
170real specific on how to achieve these larger long-term and always moving objectives. So we get to this level of academic achievement. Well, the next level is the next level after that. You know, all kids have a literacy. You know, 80% of the kids are reading at or above that. Okay, great. We hit that. Now it's 85. So this is always trying to push that to the next in my in my view. So it just so you guys uh understand and I don't remember the specifics. I just put dates on everything as I update things. And so I have down that we uh we had the strategic plan uh that we met in uh June of 2024. So I have that document with all of the proposals, revisions, and all that. And then I finalized the
171a document and it was revised and finalized on October 28th, 2024. So, and it has no edits in it and and it has all the edits that have been accepted by you guys and everything and what we talked about at that meeting. What I can't remember is did I ever bring it back to the board and show I don't know. Um, I look at it. It's been shared with I gave it to all the principles, it looks like. So, I'm going to go ahead and just reshare this with the board just so you have it. >> Do we want it on a future item? >> I think so. >> Is this a fall time? >> We should be looking at it yearly. >> Maybe a little deeper than this one, but it should just just
172always be on. And usually the spring is when we do it. >> So, I didn't do it this spring and I should have. So, we could certainly do it July or August if we want to. Um, >> what's the don't want to like there have been some pretty heavy board meetings, you know. So, what timing? >> It certainly can be in the fall, right? >> I would that Yeah, I I was I would suggest that we do it in the fall if that's >> okay with the rest of the >> We can look and side uh >> and we'll work on some dates. We could talk about that tomorrow even and try to p look ahead and see if there's a lightish meeting that this could be incorporated into, you know, where it's like a
173it was going to be a 45minute meeting and we can turn it into a two-hour meeting. Sure. Sure. You know. >> Sure. I agree. No. >> So that we can we could feel like we could devote a good hour to this conversation or if >> I feel like we did a lot of good work when he was here. We did >> just a catch up and over new board members who had >> Andy and school boards look at >> so I think it's good reminder of these if we like these goals >> we need to bring this back as we look at that strategic plan to say these are our highle goals does the strap plan help us execute on these Because if I look at these all, I think in varying degrees, they're all
174important. And I do think that we're working toward more of all of these goals all the time. So unless there's something that needs to be added, but if we are doing these things, doesn't that mean we've met the goal? I Oh, thank you. >> Because like our work towards improving education is never done. We could always have more opportunities, work-based opportunities for our students or more advanced exposure for other things or reach further down to help those special needs students. So, that could always be done better. I don't know if you could ever get that goal off, >> right? You you want to ensure open, honest lines of communication. I mean, you can't you're not done with that. >> Yeah. That's that's a lifetime of of uh of commitment over your entire time on the
175board. Collaborate with staff and engage in systematic continuous school improvement. Well, we put the word continuous right in there. >> Yeah, it's always done. >> You're never done. You're never done improving no matter what you're you feel like. Uh >> yeah. And I think this just serves as a reset because it just says the 25 26 year and to do that each year it's helpful and as a new person figure out what's going on. >> So like even like at the credit union our level of this is really simple. It's just to be the size and scale to make a difference in our communities. >> What does that mean? Can we all forget this? And this is not this is a >> not not a thing to we all forget things because I totally forgot
176it and I had no clue what the answer was. It was a action item on the October 28th meeting Laurel strategic plan. You had a revised and a final version. So you would have voted on it. >> So it did come in at that October 28th meeting >> maybe. >> Uh but honestly I don't remember it. So I had to go to this >> revisit it late October meeting would be a good >> that would be relatively >> you could call it the annual then >> yeah that'd be fair. So I did share it with you just so you have it. Um but you guys did vote on it in October of last year. It was an action item. Well, I but is that I mean I don't see us having a lot of changes
177to it because we did make some changes last time and but I I mean to make changes partway through a school year. I mean it seems to me it makes more sense to do it like either spring, late spring or do it in the summertime so that the changes are made going into the next school year. >> You can go ahead and review it. you don't have to make any changes and then you could say we'd like it brought back in April or May or whatever. Then when you guys do you remember and this is where so you guys might remember that bring you to the school board the conversation revolved around part of it was when we should review it and remember some of us thought we should review it in May prior to
178changing over people or April others are like no we should be done in June after the new school board comes on. Do you guys remember having that conversation? That was at that meeting I bet. Um and and I remember having those conversations about that. >> Yeah, I think >> they kind of decided it should be after the new board is so that would be like a June. >> Yeah, because remember um Mr. Cleave got up and and had a couple of ideas about that. One of his comments was should we ask >> if we're going to do that then we need to find out we need to think through a different way to present everything that has to get approved in the summer >> because we we we we're going to go back to back
179to back to backto back 4hour meetings. That's that's a lot of ask on the board's time, your time, staff's time to be here with us till 10:00 >> if their principles aren't aren't >> if we're going to go over the strat plan, I would expect that this district leadership team is here. >> If we're going to go over the strat, so I think we need to do it in a time where I can make sure I get them together. >> That's what I >> can't go on your vacation because you're going to have a board meeting. >> Yeah. I see. >> So maybe it needs to be just spring >> so we have time to work through it before the next school year. >> That's just the way I mean I I think there's pros
180and cons to doing it before a new board is seated and after I think after the struggle is is that you have new board members that >> don't know. It's all like they're trying to get information through a fire hose that they're like can't digest it and they don't even know what they're lo I mean I think that it's one less thing they have to try to digest right away >> as opposed to giving it to them. I mean I think we could do a better job >> orienting new um board members. >> Yeah. Because I think we just I mean after you're on for a little while you're like get in a rhythm and you expect that they and you forget how the first few months of being on this board is >> overwhelming
181and you feel like you don't know where like what is important and what isn't important. >> Here's what Dominus said about this. Said the board discussed the June strategic plan and the need for another review due to time elapsed. It was proposed to review the plan annually in the next review scheduled for the second quarter of 2025. >> That's uh >> so that's uh like right here. It's kind of >> we're just pass second quarter. No, we're in the third quarter right now. >> It just started. >> Is it like this? >> Just started the third June. The second quarter was ended June 30. >> Well, yeah, but you're on time. Were we talking about >> not teacher quarters or fiscal quarters? Fiscal spectral where it would be a second quarter. >> Yeah, we're >>
182I think I think we meant second I think we met >> business quarters ended June 30, but we wanted to have it done in your point. >> I remember that. >> Say second quarter after >> but then you start thinking about I don't know if we exactly thought through 100% like everything we approve and do. >> I think we've just had a lot of stuff this summer. I mean, we have a lot of changes to handbooks that were significant because we asked for that last year. I mean, we said, "You guys got to get this >> figured." I mean, it was >> and the new schools and trying to all that. So, we had more this summer than we've had in the past as far as actual discussion about handbooks and then the policies. We
183don't usually have that many, but it was a legislative year and we have to get these. I mean, so I don't I think that doing it in the summer isn't that big of a deal. >> I think it's just about involving the district leadership team in it. >> Well, they can recommend there. They can involve they can be involved before they leave. I mean, they there's nothing in there that's like >> remember I think we had a giant meeting about this at we were at graph. We had and we had we talked quite a bit about this in that meeting. I don't know how it ended up. was not the year before. >> Yep. Yep. When we first really dove into the strategic plan, >> it we had a and it was so nice to
184have all those administrators out there so we could be like your handbooks are garbage. We need to fix that. the strategic plan has not been touched in h we haven't been a while and and uh here's the direction things that we see we want to set and go toward start where and getting their input and feedback that's why I'd like to have them there cuz we don't want to broadside them it should be collaborative here's what we think tell us as professionals where you go because strategic plans should not like seismically shift every year either Everything should always be kind of incremental. >> Yeah. >> And so I guess >> I think we just need to pick a time and then we need to >> we need to do probably a better job having some
185sort of tracking mechanism for things that need to come to the board >> in July or whatever. >> Yeah. that we are I mean whether that's setting up a year's worth of agendas to begin with putting things on them >> so that we can keep track of them because we do I mean that's been an issue too is things have fallen off and then later we're like crap >> it's a good point I think that's a good idea >> that you have a tracking mechanism I mean we I've used spreadsheets before where or the other option is is that on our agendas we have old business and we may not we may table it again, but it stays on there until we resolve it. >> I like old business >> because the other then and
186you can put in parentheses it was, you know, the date that it was first on the agenda. So, we can see this thing's been old business for a year. Like we either need to address it or we need to >> Would you just say like keep the strategic plan on there all the time then? Is that >> I don't think all the time, but I think that things >> last time where we mentioned we needed to revisit in Q25. That should be old business because it was >> and it may not be discussed at the next meet. I mean, we may just table it again because we know it needs to or we can put on there this should be on the agenda at this so that we know what things are on our table.
187>> It'd be kind of nice to have that like we know when insurance we insurance renews every year. We have things that renew every year and what months. >> My secretary had >> I don't know and I don't know where it exists. I'd have to find it and I imagine it does exist but a kind of a ongoing list of things these this is what's addressed in June July August generally don't >> can we just keep that on the consent >> we need to probably make sure things like >> in the information >> plan is on the information I just information >> and it just it's because those things may be on there and we just haven't looked or they may not be on there. >> Yeah. What if we did the like roll that
188information rolling board calendar of major things that we know happen every year >> and just leave it on the information items? >> I don't have access to it right this second, but I bet I could get access to it tomorrow pretty easy. We could just so maybe even starting next for the next meeting we could just put that on there as a rolling >> old um >> if there's something that we really just didn't resolve >> that we we could I mean yeah those aren't your regular things but when we have something that we talk about here and we're like okay let's talk about that in two meetings put it on as old in my opinion you put it on as old business because we know that we still need to discuss it even if
189we table it at the next meeting because we don't want to look at it till the next one. >> I I think that then you have less chance of things dropping off. >> Should we just ask that if any from the board then if we're going to move on from a topic? We sat on it too long, we talked about it too long, whatever whenever somebody can make that motion. Hey, motion table this as old business to be revisited in two weeks. So just make that a part of the motion that it's in the minutes then it can get put on the agenda for the next time. >> That and that happens already. We just don't call it old business. I mean, like, for example, you guys table the policies. Well, I meet with the
190the girls in the morning after every board meeting and we talk about what was tabled, what goes on the next board agenda. So instead of having a new agenda or a new policy first reading and a new polic existing policy first reading, we'll now have a new policy first reading, a new policy second reading, uh, you know, a revised policy first reading, the ones we tabled. So I mean, we're we're we're addressing those things as they come back. We're just we're not moving them and calling it old business. Here's all the policies we dealt with last meeting and here's which we can. It's just an organizational thing. But there's things like banking with the county that we know we want to discuss. >> Yeah. And just leave it in an old business section. >> Like
191there's like that kind of broader disc >> because sometimes that does go, "Oh yeah, we did ask about that. We we're going to visit that in the fall." Kind of like this strategic plan. It did kind of fall off the radar till you we brought this back up and then it was like, "Oh yeah, we have a bigger one, too." And when did we look at October? When did we say we want to look at it? In June and we missed that date. Well, and we made I mean that point when I mean whoever that person is now it's not Wendy. She's not at this meeting. So unless she's really going through the minutes and picking up on that kind of stuff, it's not making it obviously it's not making it on the spreadsheet because
192otherwise it would show back up on the agenda. Whatever was her own private spreadsheet she just made to help her organize and help. >> I know that. But then it's not getting followed through. And that's what we need to have a system where it is. And I think it's helpful for the fact that if I can't be at a meeting, if it comes back up on the I mean, you review the agenda, but if you're not here, it kind of the next meeting comes up and it's like, oh, that was an old agenda item. They already talked about some of that stuff. So if I have questions about it, I'm more likely to call you and be like, okay, now what did we decide? so that we're not starting over a discussion because two of
193us weren't here and then we're rehashing the same things again and we can start from where we were and move forward. >> Yeah, I like that. It just separates it. That's a really good, you know, if we've talked about it before, it should fall under old business even if we're going to act on it in the next meeting. >> This just agenda >> just organizationally. >> Yeah. way, you know, have old business because I know I've done >> where would we take care of the old business first >> and that's what I was going to say. Do we >> That's what I was wondering. That was in my mind what we would do is take care of the last not to do it the next meeting cuz I leave for my vacation. I'm gone all
194next week. >> Oh yeah, that's okay. Yeah. >> So, so I mean it's just it's just a lot to >> put on put that together. >> Yeah. So we could start to do that in the new the new year with the August meeting. I don't think it's a big deal. I think it's a >> I think it's just organizational and I do think it's just >> way we put the minutes >> not even that Yeah. the the agenda together. It's not even that >> I think it's just a little tweak that might help the board. It's just incremental and I think it might help to Rene's point like yeah when you're not here and something comes back up and you're like oh did they? And then you're in the meeting kind of like you said
195and then and then some then we have to catch you back up. But if we're talking about timeliness, you could have reached out to me or called Jenny and say like, "Hey, what are we how was what did the board think and that's a lot better. >> Read the minutes, but it's different to >> it's so much different because I >> watch it. I mean, we do have resources, but I think it's just a good >> Yeah. Or you could just be like, not a big deal or this is what we talked here was the sticking point. That's why it got stuck. Here's where we're, you know, and I think that would be helpful. Let's try it. So, in terms of this, we want >> Well, number one, the link doesn't work on the agenda
196because I'm assuming because it was on yesterday's agenda and it got archived this whenever you're saying that it's in the trash. >> So, I'm wondering if we need to >> just table it. I think this should go this should probably be in line >> and it should probably be um acted on in tandem with our full strategic plan. Maybe that' probably be okay from the June. >> When did this when does the district leadership team come back? In August. >> So we could we could make this an August meeting. >> They're going to be so busy though, right? >> I mean they'll be at our meetings though. Yeah, they'll they'll be at the board meetings starting in August. >> So, we could and what we could do is Matt and I can intentionally keep a
197meeting light in order to bring this into us. So, we maybe it's like consent agenda and any pressing action and then we could just do this. Does that seem fair? That way we're not putting a bunch of p we're not making them sit here through an hour and a half of action items and then get to this part, you know. >> So, and don't we do work sessions for the district strategic? >> We have. That's what we did. >> We have done it before. >> Yeah. >> We did them on Wednesday in one of the gyms. So, we had pretty interactive teachers. >> Was it helpful? >> It was It was a while. It was before the first the first time we went for on. >> Was it lighted or was it just early? >>
198I think it was I think it started at like 4 and um it just picked up over at West and then we were able to have a bunch of teachers that were there come and help give another perspective. >> Whole board. I just want >> I think something >> I'm open to whatever we feel like will make the strategic plan better that that Matt can sell and have buyin by the staff because ultimately they're the ones who execute on the strategic plan, not us. So to me it's way more important that the district leadership team be very involved in the setting of that and um because we need their buy in to get staff buy in to have that cohesiveness from top to bottom. If they don't feel invested in and they feel like it
199was just handed down by the board, why are they gonna >> what interest do they have in implementing it? that isn't there if you're not doing it together. So, >> I would say if my board at the credit union told me how to run my area, I would not respond well to that on a professional level. They might say, "We we want to see the credit union grow this way and we want to do this. Help us get there." But the actual so this part they can help me with this piece and I can follow their lead on this. But when it comes to the strategic part of like what are the initiatives and the execution and when those are done and who our partnerships are and those kind of things they like like us
200in this setting they don't have that skill set. So I think if when we're but we always bring the board in to those strategic plans they have a huge amount of input in them but the execution is all on us. So they rely on us to really fill in the details of that strategic plan. And that's why I want the district leadership to plan >> because they're the executors. If we say we want this and they go, >> I mean, and you're here to moderate that, but this helps you help them sell it, helps everybody sell it. And so I I like the idea of work session and having the district there >> with plans for like Charlotte and the PLC's and you know because that we're taking up their early out time, right? So
201we'd have to kind of integrate that. >> We'd have to be strategic where we put it. >> Yeah. >> Because we can't just jump on top because that's all set. >> There's some that's CBA pushed. We have to have certain, >> you know, things four when >> if it's four, it's fine. >> Okay. >> Yeah. Maybe we table it as old business, >> wait for the leadership to come back. You guys can kind of help schedule >> Yeah. >> time. >> And I don't know if I we and this is just my thought if you need teachers in there because then we get they they sometimes don't think strategically. they think about their classroom and their how it's gonna affect my classroom and my kids. >> So, it's gonna be so if they want to
202come, >> they can certainly come, but I what I what I but participation wise, I really didn't want it to be the >> So, what what are you saying? Like holding it at 3:00 would be an important event because we can have a captive audience or what do you >> Well, no. I mean, I we want the district leadership team there. I want the admin's input. >> Yeah. And that's they'll be there. >> Yeah. I just it's it's a struggle in this case just because it is a public meeting to have teachers and stuff. Not that they have bad input. I get that just the scope can get narrow and we can get really >> I guess that's just incumbent on control helps them to hear the the the the bigger things you know how
203many people look at this really and really look at those. >> Yeah. And I guess it's incumbent on us to lead that discussion back towards the bigger and for us to set this is what a strategic plan is. It's not about these little classroom individual things. Helpful though because it helps in theory. I mean, some people just don't think that way, but can help them also see where those individual things in their classroom, how that fits in this bigger piece. >> And so, it gives them the why >> to I mean, sometimes >> I hope we're communicating well to our teachers why we're doing certain things, but it it gives them a build back up to the why >> that is important. >> I guess if the teachers I mean, it's going to be voluntary
204for them to come. >> Yeah. So if they took the time to come, they're going to have an interest in this, >> you know. So that's a fair point. >> We have to trust the leadership. So I have a question. Are all of the administrators on the leadership and learning team? >> The committee. >> Oh, no. This should be district leadership. >> Oh, so include >> include all the principles and >> all the principles and then >> and we can say we can Okay, let's say it's missing. you know, Julie doesn't go to that meeting. Well, she she's not involved in that because that's very much an educational based thing and it's not something she would find uh relevant. But but we simply invite those other people and them in this conversation. >> Yeah. And
205I think beforehand we just set the stage to invite them to think about district level attainment and then they can in think about how that works in their individual buildings and classrooms but that this is about district level attainment. So you kind of set the stage and that way they can maybe come prepared trying to think in that mindset. And I I hope I I don't expect a like again I think the strategic plan's pretty good. I just don't it doesn't need any seismic movements but maybe something comes out that needs to be a seismic movement from this convers but the whole district leadership teams that bought in if that's a seismic move that we need to make they'll make it. So yeah I really enjoy strategic planning myself. I've always enjoyed >> my >>
206I'm proud of you. >> That's my whole >> That's how we know you've arrived, Chris is when you just love that. >> Oh, that's like my whole That's all I >> I don't My whole job right now is to help drive and execute. >> Sometimes the minutia of discussing well should it be will or should it be may you know some of that >> and that's the stuff that we got to drive out. That's why we got to in in any good strategic planning session I've ever been in the facilitator or who you know is always pushing away from getting okay that's too much in the weeds shall and may and do and don't those things are not what's important here we got to pull ourselves back up pull ourselves back out of that to
207talk about um because we'll I guarantee you in this meeting we'll get back down to there's somebody's kindergarten class from three years ago had this issue going on That's not what the strategic plan is about. Not a It's not about >> And I think that's why it's good to have its own separate meeting because I can already see the 20 minutes we spent here and we haven't even looked at it, right? >> Yeah. >> It's good to have its own so it's good. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> All right. Let's I don't know if this I just looked up in my email. I searched my trying to figure out more about what happened. It was in 2021. We actually had MTSBA um partner with us and they had a guy I think it
208was Chris Goss who came and he he don't know if they still do that. It might be something or it was I mean it was okay. That was okay >> actually. I thought it was very helpful in my understanding of it >> and I went back and I still kept the ed the unedited or the one with all the edits in it >> so I could see what it kind of what we were thinking and um I I thought it was very helpful to me. >> I thought Andy did really >> Yeah, I thought he did a good job. Maybe we reach out to them to see what availability they have and kind of work all together and because he can facilitate. He can be that person that says come back up here and cool.
209Great. So then I would entertain a motion on this. >> Do we have to take it's potential action so I guess we don't have to take any. >> Do I have a motion? >> You feel like Yeah, you never have to make a motion. It can die for lack of emotion. >> So hearing no motion, >> what? >> Well, >> it dies for lack of motion. Does it die completely? >> No, it just means that it doesn't change. Uh it stays. >> It's already it's already a ratified dock. >> But at the time we've used it, then it would go to old business. >> If we don't table it, then it just goes away. >> Right. So, if you guys uh just >> I make a motion to table >> Thank you. >> the short-term
210goals. Second 526. >> We have a motion by Donnie to table the short-term goal. Seconded by Jenny. >> Yep. >> All in favor? >> I public comment from Devin. Sorry. Good. Deon has no public coma. >> Kayla, >> are you there? >> I. >> Unanimous. Motion carries. Kayla accepted this whole thing. Good job, Kayla. Meeting adjourned.