Asheville City Board of Education Board Retreat 1/18/24

001for and we are back and running on YouTube um so when you're done um with your self assessment then let just we'll check in so you probably need a couple more minutes CU it's a it's a nice lengthy one for this would have been one of those that we could have put on the Monitor and let them see results without knowing you know let me see the results well there's seven of us it doesn't matter who result they see they just see the results I mean do they care if it was you or do they care it was me [Music] yeah see like for we're done okay okay so George do you want to summarize or you want me to summarize kind of where I don't know where we left off that people who are

002listening online missed um I'm not quite sure either I do know we're back online and people can see the presentations I think they might have missed some of the conversation around uh lifting up some of the accomplishments that we feel we've had as a board so some of them were um well first of all first and foremost was finding a new superintendent um something we all should P Pat our back on um and we're really proud that we have Maggie here with us um other things that we are uh that we want to lift up that we are stopping during meetings to ask for questions along with that that means that we are uh understand as a board culture it's okay to ask for more information before we make decisions so I think our decision-making

003process as we had talked about uh this time last year was taking more time making sure that we're getting the full information and we're definitely doing um a good job with that um we wanted to uplift that we um are making decisions focused on students and we're also talking very uh openly um and deliberately about especially decisions as they affect our black and brown population we are uh working on building those relationships within the community and so uh at least uh board leadership is having conversations with with County Commissioners and other people in the county to make sure that communication is open um we did have as one of our goals last year was more conversations with the city of course because of the way that our funding Works uh we we feel like the

004relationships with the Commissioners are kind of taking precedence and so we're we're proud that we're doing that we also want to lift up that during the process of hiring the superintendent we were engaged in asking stakeholders what they want for the future of the district and making sure that that we continue to revisit that information because it's valid you know even now um as we move into this next phase of our district anything else from the board that I didn't lift up that we lifted up uh so yeah so for those of you online we are back as far as I know we're back online we've got full sound and um and and video so okay excuse me and then we are we just as a board during this time did some good work work

005and doing our own self- evaluations of ourselves as board members and then as the board as a whole great okay um so there the seven categories that the that you rated yourselves on and as a board is about board operations performance planning and goals student achievement policy Finance board superintendent relations and board and community so of those seven I'm I'm curious where you rated yourselves as a strength so what is an area as a board that you felt overall was a strength for us as a as a governance team uh I personally saw I rated us pretty much very good on everything when it comes to the board superintendent relationship um the relationship of this board with with our superintendent I think has been very good the only thing that you know we haven't conducted

006your uh comprehensive and fair annual evaluation yet um but other than that I think that for me uh is something that that we are doing very well as a board um I I didn't I personally didn't see that we needed improvements on anything um and this being my third iteration of a different board um it's it's been interesting to see over the last four years five years um how this has changed and how the Dynamics have changed because I could definitely have marked different group different boards differently uh but looking at this board and how it operates um you know for me personally everything was either very good or satisfactory great that's personally I think uh item number one board operations and performance I marked both uh most of those very good or satisfactory I

007do think we can continue to improve on um how we operate and annually review the board's code of ethics just because it's a practice we're not because probably because of the amount of turnover we're not used to engaging in so uh it's not that we're doing poorly at is just getting back into that habit otherwise I think we do provide a climate that allows open free and orderly discussion we certainly don't always agree on everything and I think it uh I I appreciate that that we can those conversations openly and honestly and and listen to each other any other strengths I would add that as I read these um I see that we have a lot of strengths in the area of Finance I think that this board came in with a real interest in

008understanding it and we did a lot of training as a group on that and I think that there's the only place I see that we have to go is it can continue to work and make need to make Improvement is making sure our budget reflects our goals and priorities but there's a cart and a horse in the way [Music] there for the strength I feel that we were working hard on the policies um as a elected board and with this being our our first our second year more or less that we have learned a lot with the policies uh throughout the U the time that we've been here on the board uh something that I feel that we can work better at is the finance that came out like we didn't know exactly um we

009didn't have the knowledge the proper knowledge um that we probably should have or should was given but I think we are working better on that and the board and the community I think that is uh we're doing better with the community in the board I think we all that's one thing that I can say that we are trying our best to go into our communities and and and try to find what is best for the communities um the remaining we just got some work we have to do but I think this is the first time me only two members out of seven have actually been on this board over the time frame that we are the rainia has and I think as a group I think we are doing pretty good I think Community see

010us is doing a very decent job likewise thanks so of that um I've identified some strengths are there air specific areas in those seven General um topics or some specifics within those that you think we need to focus on as a board I put um under student achievement um I put that we were satisfactory in setting high standards for each and every student stent um but I do feel that we need Improvement on having a a good solid working knowledge of the curriculum and instruction um and ensuring that that's focused on student achievement um and also inviting feedback on the curriculum and instruction um inviting evaluations and feedback on curriculum and instruction I'm going to uh piggyback those were the places I had to needs Improvement um and it was both about curriculum still can't

011hear me sorry there we go um I don't know that as a board we have as much knowledge about the curriculum as we could that that is a place we could do better the other place I was focused on was the word feedback um and I I just think we could get a better job of seeking that out um I had one other comment I just wanted to make that something different um in the planning and goals I think this board does we are largely on the same page about the vision mission and goals of our district um but the monitors caused me some pause and I don't know that we stop and assess where we've made progress and what the data is showing as much as we could that was it I when I

012look at where I think we need Improvement there's something AC that cuts across that stands out to me and in planning goals regularly monitors progress towards our vision and then on policy uses written policies as framework for our decisions and then on finance ensures that our budget reflects our goals and priorities I notice how those cut across three areas that have to do with us being clear and transparent about what we want and how we think we get there and how we measure it and I look forward to us building that up in the way we work um I think that while we're doing much better with um thinking at farther ahead when it comes to issues we have to resolve that we are still I mean a market is satisfactory the the part of

013uses good decision- making processes sorry this is under board operations and performance is the LA Performance the last one only after all information has been received and studied I still sometimes am in a position where we have to vote and I'm not feeling confident that I have all the information or the right information um so I think that that that's that may be just the the battle we're going to wage but I would still I would like to see us continue to just ensure that the information that we have is complete and that questions are able to be asked to I just feel like part of the length of our board me meetings is us simply trying to to tease out information that I feel like we should be getting to begin with um so

014that's not either a a complaint against those giving us the information I'm trying not to be 10 minutes I'm sorry um but it is partly that and partly us to make sure that we're always always recognizing ahead of time if we can that you know that graph isn't all I need from enrollment or from whatever I need and I also need to know X Y or Z so on us is looking at our agendas and the information ahead of time and being able to follow up and get into those information some of us do a better job of that and others and I'm on the I'd like to do a better job with that any other areas of improvement that you think we need to focus on and this is really helpful for me particularly

015Amy when you talk about the board nating information to help you make decisions um and then also just getting to know you as a board on like I know Jesse likes this kind of information I know Amy likes this I know nza wants to hear from let's say the teachers so um that it's been really helpful for me to just have the conversations with the board on what types of information each member likes and what you need um think of like in the legal terms before a judge makes the decision they get a brief like hey here's all the history the precedences the laws that are related to this and making a little more formality of hey board here's the decision you make here's all you know here's the things you need and giving an

016opportunity and a runway for you to process that and then saying okay what else do you need yeah and I think you know the the fact that we we are asking for more information um is perhaps a product of the district's you know turnover and history um and you know Amy's Amy's been involved with the district for a long time and um so yeah I think that we we just all need the most information possible at this point Y I agreed one also say about these standards that's perplexing to me a little bit is for example under the policy develops policies that give District administration sufficient Authority and latitude to manage the day-to-day operations I really can't evaluate that unless unless the folks who are affected by our policies tell me whether that we're doing

017that so um which begs the question of whether or not we should receive evaluation from others um and I sometimes wonder like it's fine for us to self- evaluate but I'd really be curious to know uh what the teacher think about the board and what the principes think about how the board is doing and then what central office and I mean I would love to have a little short you know survey sent to each different group because I think they have different needs but um to say how can the board be more responsive or or more helpful as you're if you're engaged in that survey by the way should be a question do you listen do you watch are you engaged I mean seriously because that I I want to know from those who are

018paying ATT attention how are we doing and then that just not that I would discount the rest but it would be interesting to see the differences thank you I wanted to add back on to the comment about getting more information the better and I think you know that about us that we just really want it all and that's a product of us being new it's a product of us wanting to get it right it's a product of our personalities I also though appreciate that sometimes you give us you give us what we want and then you make a suggestion cuz I do think sometimes we get stuck in the Weeds on something that's really in the grand scheme of things not as important as we think it might be and we okay I'm just going

019to use the damn light at the elementary school like I mean how much time did we spend on that and it would I just I think sometimes you could save us from ourselves and we we will feel perfectly we will ignore you when we want to right and you will know that but like sometimes if you could help us I think that would be we would appreciate that thank you okay okay so what I'm going to do is take these two documents and kind of come through the feedback the areas of focus and um draft some goals for the board to accomplish in this coming year um and I'll bring those back to the February board meeting actually work session we'll talk through those and then get some feedback and set a goal for what

020do we want to accomplish as a board this coming school year um when it relates to the governance um and I have a feeling I know where it's going to going to land um based on our next topic which is reform policy um so last at our I think it was December you got chapter two of this um text about what boards can do um so I know you've read it but I'm actually going to we're going to do do a little teaching strategy here I'm going to assign each of you a section we're going to go through seven sections I'm going to ask you as a board member to read the section you um actually I'll let you decide who wants to do which section give you a couple minutes to read that and

021um then you're going to summarize for the rest of the board and the public who's listening um your section um so we're going to start with core beliefs and commitment who wants to take that section do you have the chapter we gave you a copy of the chapter as well okay so Jesse all right uh theory of action for change I'd like that one Rebecca you were ready uh roles in responsibilities and relationships I'll take it Gibs go ahead you can have it no no go ahead okay Goa Thanks James all right um building blocks for reform governance I'll take it George uh policy development and oversight all right Sarah and then policy transformation for urban districts that's the short that's the short one that all right SAR you've got the um which one did

022we assign you policy development policies for transforming or in districts Amy and did everyone get one and then building capacity we're just going to skip that one yeah these are the the mo the more important ones okay so will you give us our assignments again what are we supposed to do oh yes read read your section and then I want you to summarize um just the high points from your section and any reflection that you have about how it will impact your work or how it could impact our work as a board we put that on to of the screen oh yeah for that's for EX for I was asking small group we could also push together it's that airing whatever is the heater so was just a thought if we're small enough depending on

023we could do the video I don't know can do video yeah I suggest it for consider without do it okay all right so oh Jessie all right when Jesse gets back we'll start commitments first of all let's get down to core c o r e core is a central or most important part of something uh we usually think about the core of an apple um it's also def uh it's a value and assumptions of an organization so being here on the school board and reading about the core belief and commitment it talks about the represents the board the board core beliefs and commitments that means that we all should be one solid core and have the same beliefs and so that we can make the same decisions well get close to the same decisions um

024there is a starting point for the work for the board uh our kids our our staff our school system is basically our core because they are the ones that we are here for along with the superintendent if the superintendent got a strong core that mean that the board has a strong core if the board has a strong core that mean the superintendent had a strong a strong a strong core that means that our schools our parents our teachers our communities should be developing that strong core also um uh they talk about commitments determin to change if it's as quickly as possible we we are going through this changes right now we're not making quick decisions um but we will be making those decisions um they talk about academic achievement gap which hey we just got

025to have those conversations uh talk about the middle class talk about the poor children uh achievement gaps between white and Asian children um uh oh I lost mine wait one where what page oh here we go they compare with African-Americans and Hispanic children uh to be effective change agents uh we have have at least the following core beliefs uh which should be a percentage our belief is to make sure that our kids perform good within the grade level make sure that they're they graduate with a from high school with an academic diploma I don't think most of our kids understand that without that high school diploma you're not going to be able to achieve uh uh that Higher Education Without it even at the age of 40 at the age of 50 at the age

026of 60 every time I go start and uh go into another uh education level the first thing they always ask for is your high school transcript hey people I have served military for 25 years don't you think that that might change a little bit but no they still want that high school diploma so our our kids has to understand that the importance of that degree coming out of the high school School level uh to eliminate the achievement Gap we have to encourage the parents to be part of the core and the base of this of what we are trying to hope for it's more than just Faith it's also hope we hope in we hope with faith that we can achieve these um odds against um the Gap the board that do not share these

027beliefs and accept responsibility for these outcomes are more likely are more likely to succeed so we have to be aware of it we have to want this to happen if you're not willing to go out and within all the communities maybe you at the wrong place and your core belief is not as strong as it should be so something you need to work on by failing to rise above complacency and committing to all children learning the board failed the test of leadership and let down the children and citizens who knowingly are not are relying on them to provide a bright fature they are looking at us to help them the families are looking at us to help them and with the families and their kids and our school board and our superintendent it will help

028build the core that we are trying to achieve within our community uh that's basically what this particular article is all about thank you so I'm going to talk about the next section which is theory of action for change uh a theory of action is a statement of our beliefs about what we think will bring about the outcomes that we want it's basically how we tell our community what we do and why we believe it will work it's how we put our values to work and how we share unequivocally what we will do in our district to achieve our goals um the article lifts up that it must Encompass our beliefs about how children learn motives that drive adult Behavior conditions that create organizational excellence and interplay between democracy and institutions so it's not just about

029outcomes for students but it encompasses a wide range of how we are successful for our district what I think matters as we move forward is that developing a clear theory of action for change will be a critical step for how we move from rhetoric to action how we um it will be a central component of our strategic plan it will ensure Clarity and consensus and shared understanding of how Asheville City Schools will achieve goals which will lead us to an ability to effectively evaluate our outcomes and outcomes Beyond high stakes testing to me which is one of the most important parts of having a clearly construct Ed publicly available easy to understand theory of action for change because it's there for all of us and it gives us what we need to think about more

030than just standardized tests and that's theory of action for change um for roles responsibilities and relationships um that uh District reform requires effective relationships um with the stakeholders and with an effective superintendent and most importantly with each other um and that's something that I think we are really doing well with um as a board I I think that we are a we're very a healthy board we bring a lot of different perspectives and knowledge and experiences to the table and um while our meetings run I think that the the dialect that's going on is um really valuable um it also goes on to enumerate that the board um must not insert itself into management positions and that that is the superintendent's job the effective superintendent's job um and that the the board and and superintendent

031work together as a governance and policy team but that the management aspect is your job building blocks for reform governance these are the the ways that the board operates and so those building blocks are B basically three that is regular board meetings workshops as they call it in the in the literature we would call them work sessions and then committees at board meetings board meetings should be short they should be focused in general they are workshops work sessions that's where we can drive the agenda that's where we um educate ourselves and the public I thought that was an important point and then committees which we don't really have um but committees standing or ad hoc committees they can be effective vehicles for bringing action items to the board but also a caveat that they also

032can be bottlenecks and can um lead to an encourage micromanagement as Liza was just talking about finally board members I'm just going to read this because I thought this was a very important Point finally board members have much constituent service and Community Building work this work can be done effectively only in partnership with the superintendent and requires unambiguous protocols and effective administrative support and what I read from that is making sure that you know I think we do a fairly good job of communicating to each other what we you know how we're operating out in the community but also making sure that we're doing so with some State protocols and a framework so that we're that we are in alignment in a lot of things one final point that was brought up when discussing meetings

033board meetings themselves they wrote public comment is best received at public hearings following a board meeting or at hearings posted for the purpose of receiving input on a specific subject yeah I had the section on policy development and oversight and it walked through how policies arrive at the board's lap whether they come from the superintendent or are communitybased a a note in the section that I found really helpful was the board probably ought not to devote a lot of time to operational policies but instead focus on Poli policy seeking to make fundamental changes to improve student achievement that we should keep in mind that's where our energy ought to go um they offered some guidelines for policies the two takeaways I had were policies should focus on the end result not the how you get

034there but the end result and should in fact be less specific about the how so as to let management figure out the how and we just figure out the end goal the other um takea away from this section that I found really useful and we've been hearing the refrain today is how do we then also evaluate and hold ourselves accountable for those policies if we Implement a policy how do we go back and measure it and find out if it's working or not um Rebecca used the words moving from rhetoric to action and that's something I'm taking away from this section also we talk a lot about policies and and and and we just I feel like we're ready now to move to having those I also wanted to you asked us to reflect on

035our section um we did not seek out the parent Bill of Rights it landed on US state mandated and we don't like it right we've struggled with it we spent a lot of time on it because we have to um and so I sort of just wanted to acknowledge this section is saying that these policies come to us and we have to take them as they are um and so for me I'm going to take away that even though we don't like the policies that are sometimes in front of us um we just need to make sure the policies prioritize our goals of all students achieving their potential um and that's that's what we need to focus on my turn Okay uh I'm talking about um policies to transform urban districts and the gist of

036this this section was um so we've talked about how to develop policy we've talked about the um action theory of action and the the purpose of this section was to describe how um the theor of action should drive the development of policy right and that you you create transformation when your theory of action and your policies work together as one as one unit that drives the the process forward and so when you think about that it for example one example that's offered that I think is helpful is a board that has a strong commitment to accountability to results and and accountability wouldn't want to adopt policies that were very process-based the process-based is for somebody else we're just saying we want this these accountability policies right we so the primary work of a reform board

037is to develop and approve reform policies um the other and then to make sure all every that it aligns with the theory of action the last part of this section uh which is something I've really personally struggled with figuring out how to do because it's something I I desperately want to do is to become knowledgeable uh it says we should be read widely in reform literature great um we should become knowledgeable this is the part that I really want to do what is working and not working in other districts uh especially as we look for example to hopefully creating um a a school that will work as we get really creative with our schools and we develop programming or we ask it's not even we if we ask uh Dr f to create a program

038that's going to really work for students who might not succeed as well in a traditional classroom what's working elsewhere and what's not and the suggestion that the board should know how that and should be aware of that and investigate that is really important to me and I I honestly I've wanted to do it and for lack of time and lack of knowledge of how to find out um that's a challenge but I think we need to do that and then um uh also pay attention to key relationships it says we should be Master politicians which cracks me up um but I think the idea there is that we should be paying to attention to relationships between us and with our superintendent and then just to make sure that we're navigating that well so we're all

039political neophytes but we need to uh bring some some skill to that process so that we can use our policies to um to really work toward our theory of action to implement our theory of action so I had uh building Civic capacity um which I am glad I went last um the main point of building Civic capacity uh first I the the chapter starts off with even the most powerful board working with a strong reform superintendent cannot affect sustain change without support from the community so Community Support is vital in maintaining any changes that come but we have to actually have a superintendent who's willing to do those and bring those changes forward um we as board members it's our responsibility to build those relationships within the community um so that it makes that road

040easier for the superintendent um we have to have Broad uh public support uh is another part of the um chapter here uh it said you know schools are deeply or rooted deeply in the communities they serve ours is a little different here uh because we don't have Community Schools we we are a wide District so um but that doesn't mean that we can't in effect change within those communities as we're as we're going through um also pointed out that everyone uh is for better schools or they say they are uh but they also don't like change when it's going to affect something that they are particularly wedded to so uh you know this was actually very fitting uh considering the conversation that's going to have to happen this afternoon um and another point that was

041made is that um you know communities have a tremendous capacity to create informal groups um as we've seen uh so people can come together on particular topics and then generally after that vote is done they disappear that group just dissipates so um the main point that comes out of this is one of our main priorities as a board is to build Civic capacity um and getting the community to get behind the vision the goals that are clearly stated to the community and expressed um for the district itself um last note it says building Civic capacity is a timec consuming and NeverEnding task but it must be done so you know every board member when we take that oath to uh to to be on this board and agreed to be on the board um we

042immersed ourselves in that immediately uh so yeah right so I think this is just a really good picture of um I know as a board you've you've learned the clock and what is kind of above or below the line and this this book has a little bit of a different take on it where they kind of put the work of the board above one line and then kind of the work of the administration below but it all all of those theories get to what the board's work is and I think this kind of succinctly really helps identify that and um so then now we have built a little knowledge and I think it's time for the board to now start putting some of these things in place and I think starting with two things um

043and kind of trying to get a couple things done at the same time but I've given the board an example of probably one of the most effective boards in the nation um which I actually had the privilege of working in Gwynette County um is their um Board of education's core beliefs and commitments um it's a handout that I provided you as an example of of um a board that has one National recognition for their effectiveness as a board um over time so they've just had a massive uh re um a lot of their long-standing board members retired but through this identification of their core beliefs and commitments have been able to sustain their Pro um their progress and their growth as a school system um so one of the things that I think to work

044on as a board is to identify what are our core beliefs and commitments so when in laws like the parent Bill of Rights land in our laps we have a a our beliefs on how we're going to approach that even though it does come as a law how are we going to take that and do what we need to do as a school system to hold on to those core beliefs and commitments and keep them Forefront in what we want to accomplish and then um I think the next piece that comes after that and this is what Rebecca was alluding to is how do we affect that change so if we have these core beliefs and commitments um and then I provided you this is the um an example of a theory of action that

045I actually worked on with our the board in my previous District um so how we affected change and then the third piece which jumps ahead a little bit um but is those is are those reform policies because as and I normally we would probably wait a little bit but I think there's a sense of urgency for our board to take some action on a reform policy to support our students that we are very concerned could be marginalized even greater by the parent Bill of Rights um so we're going to take some time and look at some example policies from a school district in Oregon and see what language from that we possibly want to use and out or their approach or their focus as we adopt our own reform policy on supporting our students that

046could potentially be further marginalized so I think um we're almost at at 11:00 um so do we want to take a break or we want to what I thought we could do is kind of let you read through this example and then start brainstorming what our core beliefs and commitments that this board wants to adopt does that sound okay okay all right so let's say take um why don't we take 10 minutes take a break if you need use the restroom and um we'll come back at 11:00 and start kind of verbalizing what are those core beliefs and commitments that we want to kind of hold on to our as a as a school system in a very unique setting with a very unique population that's different from anywhere else um I think we should

047capture our own core beliefs cuz there's some stuff in this one that resonates with me um particularly about supporting public schools and what they are there to accomplish um but also thinking about our passion in Asheville about developing the whole child um I don't know if that's captured as much here as I think we value that as a school system um so first of all let's talk about core beliefs what are some of the core beliefs that this board wants to capture and cherish and put down so no matter what board me you know who is sitting on the board this is a document that will guide the work of the board for years and years to come and the work of the school system so if anyone wants to start with what are some

048core beliefs that we need to to capture I would say that every well I think it's it's it's noted but every child has an equal and fair education uh opportunity for Education um and I know we we we preach that a lot and we say it a lot and I know we're doing it I don't think that there's any school in our district that is given different textbooks over a different other school or anything like that um but you know making sure that every child has the opportunity to have a exemplary education I'd like to build on that in a brainstorming space which is the you know we we hold carefully in our district the difference between equal opportunity and Equitable opportunity and so what H you know in our core values and our core

049beliefs how do we have a shared understanding of what it looks like to create Equitable opportunity in a community where there is there are not where we have gaps and outcomes based on factors we can observe and measure and then what do we do about it and how do we hold ourselves accountable to that I'd like to also in a a brainstorming sense [Music] um know that our district provides rich and diversified um engagement opportunities in a multip multitude of different ways um to engage all of our Learners I'd like to say that all students deserve an excellent and then there's some other adjectives like to add but that's the brainstorming part but an excellent education you know words that jump out to me right now are like culturally responsive and um holistic you know

050some some broader adjectives uh and also I believe that every child can achieve again brainstorm further around that and just so sorry I should have said that at the be I'm going to capture this and then I'll kind of draft our e our kind of core beliefs and commitments document and bring that back to the board for review but I also think it's important for us to engage our students our staff and our community in providing their views on this as well so there'll be some opportunity for deeper community and um um student particularly and staff to for them to give us feedback as well but this will kind of be our jumping off point U oh okay I'm sorry you sure okay [Laughter] well if we talk about the core well we need to

051probably brainstorming we need to recruit people that our kids would like to maybe listen to or we're talking about the maybe a younger a younger generations of recruitment we're talking about recruiting for B pop kids I mean you know staff people um people that that youth that have that interest of just just have that interest and to help others and teaching others and H I know we all get tired I know some of our step get tired but I think uh seems like the older we get we don't have that interest of trying to develop that young mind but a younger person would because they have that knowledge not too long from where they are trying to go so maybe a good recruitment of how we recruit um I think sort of maybe uh piggybacking

052on that a little bit I would like I I I would might begin with provide a safe and secure learning environment but I would add where all students and Educators can experience a sense of belonging feel like they belong and I think going with that then would be um that's not that might be it for the value the core value but I think what Jesse speaks to is what that's about um is you know the safe and secure environment means every child feels like they belong and can experience Educators who look and have some of their experiences or you know who with whom they can identify um and uh yeah but I think as far as the core value I think a sense of belonging should be in there I was in Reading what you

053had what you gave us and then thinking about it a little bit more after hearing everyone talk um I was just looking it up one of the I I loved what you gave us when you first came here um your uh the superintendence report from August 14th and you listed the the three areas and you've put it up in this in the central office that you belong here you know challenging uh and relevant uh in ACS um every second counts in ACS I I think I I look at some of this and I think that this is an opportunity to build off of that for our core because you you captured a lot in those three areas a sense of belonging uh so making sure that every child feels that they have a sense of

054belonging in our district uh challenging and relevant we're going to make sure that every child is challenged and and has the the rigorous education that that that they need and then making every second count you know you're we are making sure that every second that we have with our students in our schools because we don't have them 24 OR7 so that we make every one of those seconds counts I love that as as kind of CRA helping to craft that core because those are I mean that that embodies a lot of what I feel should be our some of our Core V core belief so took me a minute to go back and find it so I'd like to add um a core belief that adults and I I got the benefit of doing this

055one the uh when I did theory of action to change the one of the things to attend to was motives that drive adult behavior and that stood out to me and and thinking about this example and I'm thinking about the adults in our schools the Educators deserve to work in environments where they receive support where they are encouraged to build on their strengths to you know to lean into their professionalism those sorts of things that feels important to me I think another core value for me at least is um to be a district of Engagement uh with Community Partners and our and our families and our Educators that that's a core value to me that we communicate that we are transparent and that we engage fairly everyone can I add to that that we are

056also a district with that acts with Integrity I want to add something a little different and Maggie I'm going to trust your word smithing I really like the part in the forgotten who this is your last board um about a reminder about why Public Schools exist and I feel that in our current um place in history with the attacks on public education that and we I know we all know this but it is part of our core belief that this is actually important and we arew kids who don't for whatever reason go other places end up um and that that's really important um so I just want that to me is why we're here um and you can say that better Sarah I really appreciate you lifting that up because I I was looking at

057this and some of it resonated some of it I felt was a little whatever the word is I'm not quite sure I I would love to lift up the fact that public education common education in the United States is rooted in emancipation it it has its roots in um and reconstruction America and this idea of a multi-racial democracy if there's a way for us to kind of uplift that to to drive home the point that that we value what public education the the the institution of public education can be and what it should be for our students and for our community and for our country and I 100% agree what I also want to add to that though is we are not a charter school right that's I'm also trying to claim that we are

058the traditional public school that exists for a lot of good reasons and that that's important and that we're proud of that right I guess I just am adding to it that yes and I would say as I've said lots of times before it is critical to a successful democracy right like it's the most basic uh requirement for democracy is a successful system of public education okay are there any so those you had some commitments in there too any other commitments things that we as a governance team are committed to one you know we have this idea of Equitable engagement a committed to transparency um so I've captured some of that but I want to make sure we you know values core beliefs but also any commitments that you don't think we already touched on I

059would I would throw in there the um well it's number three on there the safe and secure um in learning environment uh we do have to have and I know that's a kind of a touchy subject across the country right now but we do have to have secured facilities and and safe facilities for our kids I don't know I'm brainstorming yeah that's what it's I I love the idea of um thinking about that that we will also hold ourselves accountable and in other words when one we would try to repair when when we when we know that relationships have been broken we will work to repair relationships and harms caused by past or present and present injustices or um mistakes even you know like I just think one of the important things and I'm just

060going to say this more broadly is we are going to make mistakes as a board as a as human beings and the issue isn't do we make mistakes but are we willing to acknowledge take responsibility and repair and move into right relationship um um I even love the term Beloved Community you know like this is what we're trying to create in this is a community that is dedicated to right relationship and repairing harm and including what past um what this board and this school system has done historically as well yeah yeah yeah past and present right like sort of past but also acknowledging to the extent we do it now we will repair we Amy I like that because I think it brings in really nicely the um concept of intent and impact and that

061um we will hold ourselves accountable for both not just one I feel like it's [Music] important given what given the challenges we see coming out of Raleigh that we are committed as well to to being stewards of taxpayer dollars I don't want to say it that way but we we have to commit to to strong financial oversight because we have limited resources at the same time I also understand how we can and this happens here I see it all all over the place how how easy it is to fall into deficit thinking and so if there's a way that we can commit to some real asset based thinking about how we operate within this community what resources we do have to build on that Amy brought it up and I want to uplift it um

062because it was sort of part of a multi-prong comment you made but that the the uniqueness of our community and the and the Community Partners that we have and build building that in to me that that's very relevant at a time when our state is devaluing traditional public education that we can show up with the core value of Community Partnership and Community collaboration to the to benefit our students and our Educators like effectively like not haphazardly but like effectively because we it's I appreciate you bringing up a scarcity mindset won't help us to be Ive and creative thinking that is rooted in Effectiveness could make us unique and and more impactful yeah I I think Financial stewardship to be clear for me and I I appreciate that Rebecca is not scarcity Financial stewardship means doing

063the most with what you have so it's actually you know I I I think that term stewardship is spoton uh it's stewardship maybe it's more like um to to be to be good stewards of our resources you know which is broader but I I think it's an important point to make Dr Ferman are there any that you've noticed about our district any anything we haven't said that comes to mind for you I I don't um I and maybe this goes into the theory of action but I think the a core value I think that I've seen with this board is Trust of Staff school-based staff in particular like you like this this board wants to hear from the teachers on the front line the bus drivers um the students and I think elevating student voice

064is a commitment and a core value for the board um and that they are part of the decision-making process not receivers of decisions but that they're engaged and involved in actively making decisions and providing input so I would say that probably is the one that hasn't been lifted yet as a commitment to engage in an authentic way um students and staff particularly this those that are on the front lines with the students every single day yeah thank you for that uh that is I think absolutely part of what we are about and um even this week um you know know we all received an email from a staff member who feared retaliation for speaking it is still a core fear that exists in our staff um our Educators at every from what I can tell

065almost everywhere and so when I talk about and I'm going to go back to the core value of secure and safe in place where we belong that's actually in that for me so um you aren't secure if you don't think you can voice your opinion no one should feel feel like they can't voice an opinion and I don't care how outlandish that opinion may sound you should be able to voice it as long as it's not hate speech without repercussion and I'm I'm not sure what this fits under but fostering and encouraging creative thinking and out of the box problem solving from all of our community members um students staff and those from the broader Community as well okay I think I've got enough to start with like I said I'll work on drafting that

066um so the next thing for the board to take a look at is um this idea of developing a theory of action um and it's it's this idea of how change happens um so worked a lot on creating a theory of action about um first of all what are the core beliefs and values for theory of action what are we going to hold and cherish and then for a theory of action to be effective you've got to have that standard of what do we expect you if you don't have this level of expectation standards mean are really another word for expectation so what do we expect what are the standards we're going to hold our staff to our leaders our students even what are those what do we want to accomplish um and then accountability

067how do we hold those who are charged with getting this work done that they are going to do the work um trusting them to do it but also how do we how are we going to embed this process of evaluation monitoring and accountability so that we can make sure we are meeting that standard so if we don't have the accountability piece and the monitoring piece then we kind of lose track of are we ever getting towards our goal um or one day we wake up and we realize that we have the worst achievement Gap in the state and we've got to keep an eye on that in a constant way so that we can affect change in that in that goal but then I am a firm believer bless you in empowerment um I don't

068believe micromanaging is an effective way of leading and getting work done it demotivates people it takes away their um you really want we want our people to think for themselves and problem solve on their own so that they can go out there and do the best that they can um so there's this idea of how do you kind of hold these three things in one place to move us forward as a school system um so it's um Chris how much time when's lunch time45 okay so I think what um based on that what we'll do is um because I wanted to get to this these reform policies as well is there's another chapter in that book that's all about theory of action so I think what I will do is let you kind of read

069this Maul this over as an example of a theory of action I've got several others that I can send you um to review as well and then I'll copy that chapter about theory of action and that we'll dig into that um at a later date to really flush out what does our theory of action look like as a school system yeah in looking at this that you handed us that under standards when it says job descriptions what is that pertaining to is it pertaining to teachers uh every single every single person yep and what is that when when you're saying standards plus uh code of ethics for educat job descriptions so is it making sure you know is that saying that we as a district going to make sure that people are doing their jobs

070yes so a little bit so let me kind of this is this is very District specific language so standards plus was our way of lifting culturally responsive education as a core practice within that school system so you have the state standards that we had to teach but we also knew we needed to teach not not just the Georgia version of history but history as really what the honest truth of what happened in history um like are we going to teach Columbus history the way the history books say or the way we we really understand what happened and case in point was there's I think it was third grade talked about um how I forget the name of the guy in Georgia but he call he basically set up Savannah as a city yes ogor and

071how there's this picture of him shaking hands with an you know the chief of the um Native American tribe and it's like oh they made a deal no they didn't make a deal so it was really our way of saying we want to teach history in the right way and be culturally responsive and accepting um so that was kind of our our way to say yeah we're going to teach the standards but we're also going to teach reality um and then job descriptions for me job descriptions is really important cuz your job description and I've been rewriting job descriptions for central office staff um over the past couple months is about really identifying what are so you can Empower people so if you got a really good job description it should include what do we

072expect you to do and what are the results we should expect from someone in that position so that no matter who's in that position we're still going to keep um our goal and our eyes focused on what do we want this person to achieve at in this position um so that it's consistent over time in a matter matter who sits in that seat it's still going to be working towards the same goal so it the job descriptions are more than just you're responsible for X Y and Z but what do we expect you to accomplish by doing X Y and Z so it builds in kind of these what we call Key performance indicators so that we can monitor that and make sure people are getting the job done that we've asked them to do

073without micromanaging them yep I want to just may I ask a question so you do so the idea here is you do one theory of action for the whole District it's not for various uh groups it's one that can Encompass everything so it's really one this one that the board is involved in developing is the one that will drive strategic planning okay so how what is this very broad big theory of action that we believe will impact change as a district um but like the math team probably could create a different theory of action for effective way to teach math in a classroom okay thank you yeah okay questions um I can't recall what we do every two to three years for teachers we we go in and we um what the principles and assistant

074principles do oh the eval there to staff evaluation yes evaluation is that standard State evaluation or could we change that so the state creates the evaluation tool that we have to use for principals and teachers assistant principles and then but what we can do is in those different um standards that they've set for staff and principles we can add some of our own language so one of the core things that several of the principles have done um because we have our Equitable practices they incorporate those as part of what they're looking for to meet that standard okay the question I'm going to ask now is it possible that we can add reapply for your position so that that within the time frame that they have Tau maybe two years have them list the amount of

075people they have succeeded within that classroom setting or pass a fure or if you have taught 100 kids with the percentage of them that was passed maybe it would get them to think about what they are doing and how they doing in their classroom setting and that's just accountability piece so the middle part of that is if you have clear job descriptions and goals set and expectations then when you hold your staff accountable are they Meeting those goals when you complete their evaluations and if they are they're going to be moving in a positive direction if they're not coaching support additional resources to give them an opportunity so you the hope is you develop them so they can create that positive change but then at some point if they continue to not meet expectations then

076that you've got to have those conversations of saying you know what maybe this isn't the right fit for you in this position maybe there's a better place that you could be more effective or maybe you're just in the wrong field but that happens through that naturally through the accountability part of that theory of action so all right any other comments okay so I will get you some more copies we'll get you some more learning so you can continue to grow your expertise in effective board leadership and um that's where we'll go next with that piece so the so you're here yes so the can can I ask these the policies from Portland that you distributed yes um those will be just something we consider as we do this work moving forward yes so moving forward

077so there's two policies from Portland Public Schools and icist and anti-oppression learning communities and then um an administrative directive on transgender non-binary gender expansive students so we are rewriting our policy 17 or our procedure 1710 to become a school board policy so what I would love the board to do is read through these um policies and is there language in here is there a sentiment in here that you think we need to include in ours as we move it to a policy or alternatively or maybe and maybe there are is another policy we want to develop along these lines but may address a slightly different group that we feel like is not 100% okay thank you yes so and then as we move through this reform governance structure then what are those other policies that

078we want to write do we want to put a firm Equity policy in place um Rebecca was reminding me that they the equity team has started to develop Equity policy for the board to review and put in place so what are the other reform policies that we need I think for me when we talk about holding our holding that belief at our core that every student can be successful is I think the Board needs to take a look at our promotion criteria and set some standards on what we want our students to accomplish before they move to a next grade not in the vein of hey we're going to set this motion criteria so that students can be retained it's a that's actually the opposite it's we're going to monitor students progress on these standards

079so closely so that we're providing the interventions they need so that when they get to that threshold we can say with confidence every third grader can read okay all right Mr Campbell they're yours we have 10 minutes before lunch so my question to the board is do you want to Dive Right In to the policies the it's loud in here first of all good morning morning morning so I think you have uh I just want to procedurally kind of see how you want to proceed with your lunch break I know that you've got lunch coming in about 10 minutes and happy to have a working launch and just take a break to get plates happy to take a complete break and obviously the discussion on these parents Bill of Rights policies is kind of going

080to be dictated by the comments that you have and how much discussion you want to have so really uh Mr chairman whether you want to take a a proper lunch break or have a working launch is completely up to you um probably want to address that issue first yeah I think working lunch yes yeah I mean I personally would love a 10 minutes to scroll through these again um that's how I would use our 10 minutes but we all what do you think I think that's a great idea it's a great idea everybody review it get a plate of food and then we can have discussion that makes a lot of sense okay probably been a minute before some of since some of you had a chance to read through these okay great so we'll

081take a 10-minute before we do that can I check in and can you Orient us the process that we've followed thus far is that we've provided feedback about things we'd like to see have we received back information about things that are changing as a result of that feedback I can answer that I made suggestions and Chris put them in is that what you mean so the process you followed thus far is obviously you got the template recommendations from the school boards Association you had a chance to to look those over and then what we did was we conducted a close session to kind of talk about legal issues and covered a lot of legal issues in that Clos session and then each of you were asked to look at these policies and to make comment

082uh things that you would like to see added things that you would like to see changes or concerns that you had and then my office took those and we synthesized those into the documents you have in front of you now so a lot of points there are additional language or additions that have been made and we tried to identify for you which board member uh those particular comments came from in addition I looked at changes that were made by the Durham public schools and there are a couple of recommendations that came from changes that were made by the the Durham public schools and I can kind of review that as well and then what we had discussed as a board kind of in line with your general policy discussion is kind of a two-step one

083is what I will just call for ease of discussion basic legal compliance uh what does this board need to do to look at policies that are in basic legal compliance to be able to move forward and be in compliance with the changes that were mandated and then a second discussion which is the intent of the second discussion is not to arrive at any conclusions today and that is to look at Asheville City Schools specific policies areas in which you want to express what your goals are what your aspirations things like student support and other things traditionally that has been done through a procedure uh you have gender support guidelines 17 um 10p that the Administration has developed they've used that in working with specific students but you have engaged in a conversation of whether you

084whether or not you want to take those policies ideas from the Portland Public Schools or other resources that you might find and do you want to craft your own Asheville City school specific policies that go far beyond the minimal compliance required by law to where you're actually expressing the support that you want to provide students in specific groups of students that is an ongoing conversation so the intent has not been that that time would be spent today on those additional policies the time we've set aside today is where are you on basic compliance in the Schoolboard Association policies yeah and Chris had sent I think earlier in December the revised policies I just reforwarded them to you so taking a look through those um while we eat lunch and then be ready to digest that

085when we're done okay and I'll be happy to do an overview of each policy if y'all just want to take them one at a time okay great when we get there so yeah we'll take a 10-minute recess break I think it would be appropriate just to call a recess and then you can reconvene after everybody gets a plate of food right during the recess folks can read the policies no reason to say in session while folks are res say and you don't have to get a motion for that you can just right I'm I declare recess well done and uh during the recess we had a time to review some of these policies we also want to acknowledge we have folks in the room who have been here since the very beginning of our meeting

086um especially for this uh for this part of the agenda which is discussion of Senate Bill 49 and the policies and procedures that um we are task at looking at so I want to um again make sure from the board um want to get approval that it's okay to ask for some comment from um those folks in the room who are here they have some things they want to share about Senate Bill 49 and the policies and procedures we're looking at um and because they have to leave shortly I'm going to go ahead and open up the floor to them now so Allison or Christina either one of you want to start if you would please come to the podium because of the all all of the technology right now that's the best place to

087be I'm CH I'm Christina Mason I'm an ash City Schools parent and I'm a supporter of the ncae teachers union um thanks for the chance to share my two cents about the parents Bill of Rights so my dad was born in 1952 and he attended school in America from the 50s to the 70s and at that time when queer was mentioned it was mainly used as a slur to bully kids like him who were different the message was pretty clear keep quiet pass for being straight like everybody else or you're going to get beaten up kicked out or Worse there were not very many openly queer people in society then they were erased and silenced told explicitly and by what went unsaid that they were aberration and that something was very wrong with them the

088few adults my dad confided in reiterated that the queer stuff was probably just a phase and he should marry a woman and the gay stuff would just go away so he did and he had two kids and he couldn't even admit to me until I graduated college that he was gay as you can imagine all the secrecy and hiding and shame were extremely damaging to us in our relationships now it's 2024 and Ellen kissed a woman on TV over 20 years ago our secretary of transportation is a proud gay married man and the Supreme Court ruled you can't fire folks because of their sexual identity my six-year-old son refers to people as they thems so naturally that I envy him and yet we are in a position of forcing regressive discriminatory State policies on students

089and making teachers police their pronouns in practice the new law really only shuts down queer sexuality teachers have to report pronoun changes to parents everything presented by a teacher a book or a film that's shown in school has to portray straightness as the one reality legislating heteronormativity like this has real consequences over winter break one of my friends got an invitation from her school to come to her CH child's kindergarten classroom and pull out any books that mentioned anything that could be construed as queer she's 5 years old sorry and um her kid has two moms so this has a real impact on them imagine how they must feel we're headed right back to 1960 we're being different or having a family that's different is something to be ashamed of well no shame on us

090shame on us adults for not protecting our children from lawmakers who are making schools hostile places to be queer or to even learn about the full spectrum of humanity all of our children need to hear that we love accept and celebrate them for who they are I explained to my little first grader how these new policies make it hard for people to be themselves this morning and he just said but it's just different that's weird even a six-year-old can see that policies design designed to make queer people feel small and invisible and shut them up are unfair and wrong they are freaking out about teaching kids to be tolerant and respectful of all people I mean it's it's ludicrous but federal law protects everyone Title 9 prohibits sex-based discrimination in any ferally funded school or

091educational program it prohibits sex-based discrimination in Asheville City Schools so I encourage students teachers and families who would be silenced and erased by the parents Bill of Rights to speak up now come to the next school boarding Schoolboard meeting which sounds like it will be February 1 as an opportunity to give public comment and share their truth and if the policy goes into Force I would encourage them to file a complaint that's the only way we're going to get movement on this parents Bill of Rights does not reflect us or our values as a community in Asheville thank you Christina I'm Allison Scott I am a mother of a child in the Asheville City school systems as many of you know I'm also an advocate for lgbtq people in our local community in our state

092and in our region and also being forced to do it on a larger level throughout our country I think one of the things that Christina touched on there about how s sp49 flies in the face of Title Nine we have to talk about why I often times hear that we School boards you have to do something because it's state law well when we talk about state law all of you when you swear your oath you swear it to the Constitution then you swear it to the state and then you reiterate how state law cannot be inconsistent with federal law and that is where your first oath lies we talk about discrimination in schools what is discriminatory treating groups of people differently based on characteristics do we ask other students in our school maybe mixed race

093students are students going to teachers their principles their counselors and talking about their status as a mixed race student do counselors and principles have to then report that to the parents because maybe a student is saying I just found out I'm mixed race and I've identified as One race and now I'm identifying as another that's not being forced that's discrimination you're treating one group of people differently you're putting in a set of rules that forces this difference to now be reported to parents it flies in the face of your oath to the Constitution it flies in the face of what is right as each of you were going through and reading this document on code of conduct and ethics I was sitting here thinking about how s sp49 is flying in the face of forcing

094a board to micromanage and insert itself into the day-to-day operations of a school it's superintendent how do you live up to your code of ethics when you are also sitting here and having to comment or vote on S sp49 it's hot trash it's discriminatory and I'm tired of it and I appreciate y'all you're in a tough position but go back to your oath you swore that oath to the United States and to the Constitution discriminatory laws are always proven to be just that we talk about teaching history sometimes we have to go back and correct that history this history in a few years will be taught as a time in our nation that we got it wrong and we were forcing people to do things that were not only illegal but against the morals and

095ethics that many of you swear to uphold every day thank you Allison so board this is what we're tasked with I mean we have we've been we've been looking at these policies for a few months now excuse me um we've we've said in in work sessions we've said in regular board meetings the the the place it puts us as a board place it puts um this District but I think most importantly we've got to consider what it does to our to our students right I mean that's what we that's what we're here as board members um so I mean I there there's no easy way that in transition to kind of going in into the the nitty-gritty of the language and you know in each of these policies but I guess that's what a a

096retreat is for is to really kind of start to dig down and and have these conversations around what is the letter and what is the intent of each of these policies we have the option to take action at the end of this I have a feeling I know what our attorney is going to say because he said it before but also it's it's it's it's on us to make that decision so what I would recommend now is we just go piece by piece policy by policy and and attorney Campbell you can kind of guide us through that if you don't mind and we can um have a conversation about what we're reading and what we the impact of what we're reading sure be happy to do that and the the other thing that I want

097the board members to keep in mind as we work through these from a big picture is that with any law there is compliance with that law but then this board of education statutorily can go as far beyond a law as you want to uh as long as your actions are not in direct conflict and that can be arguable uh there's I think in in school law it is fair to say and before we even start to recognize these things that there are issues that are now in law and this board is confronting that 10 15 20 25 years ago laws were much more straight forward in terms of practical issues and not values issues societal issues um and the term social wars has been used repeatedly and unfortunately the social wars are playing out in

098public schools with folks that have very very different viewpoints about a lot of issues um and I don't think it's inappropriate to publicly say that's unfortunate uh but at the same time it is the work that this board has before it to support students every way you can so I say that because as I work through these policies and I'll probably start with the ones that have fewer changes first and I want you to keep keep in mind that there is minimal compliance and then it has been the intent of this board from the beginning once you have confronted the issue of what I'll continue to call minimal compliance with what you have to do what do you want to do and how do you want to support students and how do you want to

099embody that in policy so there are suggestions or uh possibilities as a better word in these policies language that's been taken from the bunkham county schools for example that you could choose to put into policy now you could choose to Wordsmith it or you could say that's an issue that's beyond minimal compliance let's deal with that in our Asheville City Schools policy about how we want to confront these issues so there may be things that are better left for your Asheville City school specific policy and I'll try to point those out as we go through too so there may be things that you choose not to include now because you want to be more thoughtful about how to approach those uh and probably a real good example of that is let's start with 6120 so

100if you'll pull up student health services policy 6120 the change from the school boards Association and I will say publicly they did a very good job of minimal compliance what they tried to do was only put in what they believe the statute required and not go beyond anything that the statute required so the only change from the School Board Association excuse me was simply to recognize that School Employees have the authority to administer Health Care Emergency Care first aid services to students in compliance with existing law and that's true and that's the only change that they made to this policy and it's the only change in my legal opinion that's required now the bunkham County Schools decided that they wanted to go a little bit further and they wanted to address the specific issue of

101student student suicide risk assessments this is a classic example of what I'm talking about because I don't want you to get too bogged down in these issues if you're not ready for them today this is not necessary this doesn't have to be in the policy and I will tell you where all of our clients with the exception of monkam County Schools is right now with this particular provision and that is suicide risk assessments are an issue practically and you need to know that right now if School Employees believe that a student could be at risk of suicide they immediately contact the parent they immediately contact emergency services outside groups come in that are qualified to conduct these risk assessments and as you would expect as parents the first person called if the school system believes

102a student might be suicidal is the parent and that's the way it's always worked that's the way long before the parent Bill of Rights says that you must notify parents before you do an assessment of potential psychological issues that the child may have you must notify the parent you were already doing that every school system was already doing that the issue that bunkham County Schools was just concerned about is what if we can't get the parent in school districts right now including the Asheville City Schools you can ask the student a set of questions it's the first six questions in a suicide risk assessment that are more designed to decide whether or not the assessment needs to be done is the child even potentially suicidal at all for example I think we would all agree

103that if a child came to an employee and says you know I don't know that I want to be at home by myself tonight I really don't feel good about being alone by myself and if the teacher said well are you thinking about harming yourself that's not an assessment that's a question to find out if the child needs to be assessed so right now if they can't get the parent they can still ask basic questions to find out if the child needs to be assessed and then my understanding is most school districts will secure the child until the parent can be located they don't move forward with a formal assessment until they can talk to mom or dad and say Here's why we feel like we need to do the assessment so we are not

104recommending this change bunkham County Schools just and some of the school board members wanted to go a little further Beyond law and say that if the parent couldn't be notified and if the child is in potential danger that they would go ahead and proceed with the assessment so that's an example where bunkham County wanted to take on a specific issue specific board members wanted to address that specific issue if you want a recommendation from me on this particular policy I would not include this today I would go ahead and let that be an issue that you include in your Asheville City Schools specific policy because it's not going to change what your folks are doing right now an hour from now tomorrow and kids are being taken care of there's nothing in my opinion that

105you need to be concerned about so if you wanted to include this similar language you could but this is an example of something that I don't think is necessary at this point the questions about 6120 when you say put that into our Asheville City Schools policy you're talking about the procedures so what we've talked about is right now you've got a procedure and you could leave it as a procedure and the administration is in charge of developing procedures the superintendent Dr Ferman would bring that to you she'd want your input But ultimately it's her procedure and she gets to make the final decision on what's in procedure the other thing we've talked about is to allow your staff and Dr Fairman to come up with a procedure after today let you review it and then

106you could decide whether you want to make it a board policy nothing prevents you as a board from deciding that you want proceed to be policy which you would have ownership in I want to be real clear though I'm not advising that this language go into a procedure I'm saying you would want to delegate to the superintendent to think about whether this language should be in a procedure or whether or not she feels it's needed and her staff feels it's needed okay yeah I'm sorry go question if we do put this in the procedure are we allowed to put the cour questions that need to be asked also in the procedures so that the great question you could I would recommend not because you can get bogged down the instrument itself Mr Warr has the

107questions and staff is always going to be using the instrument they're actually going to be using a separate document if they feel like they need to ask these introductory questions of the student and only certain Personnel are allowed to do this and that may help you a teacher is never to ask ask a student a set of questions to decide whether or not they may need a risk assessment a teacher is fine to say to a student are you are you thinking about hurting yourself but all of the teachers in the Asheville City schools are trained that if the answer to that question is yes they need to immediately get that student to a counselor or social worker who's trained to then take it to the next step so I don't think it's not the

108great question yes you could put it in procedure but I don't think that's necessary I have a question can you direct us to the current written procedure regulation protocol that tells teachers everything you've told us they already know how to do great great question the state of North Carolina has now said that school districts must finalize a policy on um on threat assessments but the state has never said that there must be a policy on suicide risk assessments so the instrument itself which principles are responsible for knowing says on the face of it that it should be conducted by a school counselor or a social worker so this is all part of I get to ask this question a lot and Dr fman really needs to weigh in on this it would be impossible to

109have a document that says here are all the things we're supposed to tell teachers every single year you've got to rely on supervisors to do their job for princi principles to convey to staff what needs to be done the easy way to answer your direct question on this is teachers don't have access to the instrument so there's no way a teacher could do a suicide risk assessment so that's how that is managed if I'm a teacher I have to go to my principal because I have no resources I'm not given any resources but no you're not going to find a policy that says if the student says this then you that's all part of managing a school you can't put everything into procedure yeah you have thoughts on on that yeah so and that's it's

110a tool that's managed out of our student support and the CR crisis team and the counselors and school psychologists are trained in that tool um and that's part of what Kim works with on her staff and then the teachers you know when they've got a kid in crisis one they're worried about they you know do that warm handoff because that's really a big part of it too is you instead of saying oh I'll go check the teacher you take the student to the coun so there is that warm handoff to make sure that that kid never has an opportunity to to do something that they that you're worried that they might do and then the counselors take it from there and they have that protocol they've been trained on it um so that's part of

111Kim's Department that she's trained all of her staff on my my question and curiosity is rooted mostly in as as we do this looking at rather where possible lifting up existing procedures that that make our kids safe that make our kid that highlight not that this is like my sense is sp49 after we got debriefed on it in a in all but a a couple small places are taking rights that already existed and grandstanding about them they are not bestowing upon parents rights that they didn't already have corre and so when we respond in policy with more uh specificity to what is UN necessary specificity that our general assembly laid on us I'm inclined to wherever possible respond with what we already have and how we already do it versus verbage that's just layering on

112the complexity of the policy wow we're about to lift off if you couldn't hear that the furnace kicked on and it sounded like a rock like a spaceship um so I'm holding myself accountable as we go through this to to carry that you know I would love to send the message to our community that when we find problematic language that we respond with existing solid procedures that protect students rather than creating new language that hasn't existed before because I believe and I hope that what we'll find is we are like when you say you're already doing this my question of show me how we know we're already doing it and then let's put that here this is what we already do reference this you know what what I want to add are references to Asheville

113City Schools policies and procedur because it's what we're already doing I understand that 150% and agree with it 200% I think that is an excellent way to summarize this whole issue of this is a issue of concern that's been brought to the surface so rather than deal withing it with new policy language delegate that to the administration to come back to you with existing procedures protocols and a way to inform parents and to proactively shine a spotlight on it and then you can decide whether or not you need to say more about it I think that's a perfect example and uh Mr shmer that would be my recommendation is this language not be included in this particular policy that it be delegated to the superintendent for further consideration in the procedure with the idea that

114every time we can we can uh reference existing policies and procedures we do so that feels like a very important point that there it it doesn't go with nothing but we're we're not creating new new we're but we're highlighting in the most problematic places in this new policy we're drawing attention to requirements of our own not context or suggestions but requirements for how our staff support children here they're not new they're how we've been doing it and there may be a couple places where we do need new and that we need to figure out as well but I I'd like to lift that up not leave it lingering out there like there's nothing but yeah so Mr chair unless there's any other questions about this one and we can come back and restate what the

115recommendations are at the end for each policy let's look at 4720 this will be very quick 4720 simply restates the law on Protec topics and surveys word for word and the additional language again came from bunkham County and related directly to this same issue of the suicide risk assessments so there is nothing over and above what the school board's Association recommended for this policy and no board member had any concerns about this policy and I have no concerns about this policy any questions about okay I think the next policy to look at would be 7300 which is Staff responsibilities so the changes the additional changes uh Mr seberg rep uh recommended some language change in the paragraph six in the introductory language that says that all School Employees shall support parents in participating in their

116child's education and not encourage or compel a child to withhold information from a parent what Mr seberg had uh suggested was taking out the language about coercion and I completely agree with that because that is a legal term of Art and it uh it's not necessary even though that's a word from the statute you can still convey the legal meaning without using the word coers do you want to expand upon that yeah it bothered me that word coer really bothered me so I'm glad that we could uh do something different I'd love to not have to say any of that but I understand that it's in the law um I also um that word effectively to me feels like it can it it it leaves so much room for error that I like I wanted

117to take it out but happy to answer any questions if youall have any other thoughts okay great let's move to policy 3540 which is comprehensive health education [Music] program and in this particular policy in section A the school boards Association added the directly from the statute an instruction on gender identity sexual activity or sexuality will not be included in the health education program in kindergarten through fourth grade and then we have recommended language um from uh miss thornberg that uh we kind of I worked on it in addition to the comment she made that would state that the reference to instruction above is separate and distin from healthy Community Building within a classroom in a school as Educators play an essential role in creating a supportive School culture that respects and values all students and

118fosters an understanding of gender identity and expression within the school community in addition schools are to continue to promote the education and social integration of transgender and gender non-conforming students and ensure a safe learning environment free from discrimination and harassment principal shall ensure that students Endor parent complaints regarding bullying harassment are handled in accordance with applicable board policies principal shall also educate employees on measures to support all students I'm going to recognize Miss thorberg to talk about this more but this again is a classic example of something you could include today or you could delegate to the administration to come back to you with specific language for you to consider as part of a separate policy miss thorberg my intent was just all that language comes from 1710 I just edited and cut and pasted

119and brought it over Rebecca and I have talked often about whether you should just say C 1710 or whether you should cut and paste it and I've gone back and forth on my thinking I don't like this sentence the one in red or whatever color it is and so I was trying to make sure that it was really clear that teachers and our schools continue to have an obligation to all students I I have a question for Chris that if I since he gave me the mic maybe now's a good time to ask him Chris what happens if we just delete the sentence that says instruction delete this sentence completely yeah the legal obligation stands whether it's in policy or not would be the lawyer's answer so we just don't have to and then you

120rais the question of well how are you letting your staff know what their legal obligations are that's the question it begs if you do not include it in policy okay thank that answered my question sure can I ask a question absolutely hypothetically a year or two years from now this bill is found to be in violation of Title 9 what are the repercussions or what what could be the repercussions from finding that our entire state is in violation of that but you know specifically for our district that is a fabulous question that Miss Ray and I will be happy to teach a six- week seminar class on the answer but what I'm going to do in all seriousness is kind of give you a legal answer and then a practical answer uh and I would

121love from his Ray Miss stormberg to jump in too at the end if they have additional thoughts so as a from a legal standpoint uh our every legal system involves the quandry of individuals institutions doing what they think is legal when a court makes a decision as to whether or not something was legal it is determined to be that that was always the law which is a fascinating concept so you think you're doing the right thing you think you're following the law and then when a court rules that you're not following the law the ruling is that's always been the law it does bed the question of the retroactive impact of that as well uh first of all for institutions typically people have to show how they were injured by a particular violation of law

122a lot of times that's simply a change in policy or an injunction something where the institution will change the way it's been operating uh so they still would have to show some type of Damages courts are very mindful though of very difficult legal questions and damages you can find a violation of Law and not find specific damages because the law was so uncertain that can find its way into final decisions and then the thing that I find the most comforting as far as individual liability of School Employees if you're following an existing state statute and that state statute is struck down as being in violation of federal law I do not see a path for individual liability against any employee because they were doing what the law mandated at the time because there's always liability

123of the institution versus the individual so that's a very different set of circumstances when you think you're following the law you find out courts disagree it's hard to assess individual liability in those circumstances and typically the bar for showing damages is fairly high but you face this quandry like you would with any law that is alleged to be in violation of a federal statute of the Constitution okay thank thank you all right um that's I I don't have much to add on that but I would say that um as a practical matter what happens and Chris you can correct me if I'm wrong we would we would a complaint would be filed against us specifically and it would really have to identify particular harm that someone suffered as a result of this policy so it's

124not the existence of the policy alone isn't enough to trigger a particular person's CA of action is that fair to say fair to say okay so um now talking specifically I I really appreciate Sarah the addition of this paragraph and I'm glad it's here so I don't want it to be omitted I do think that I would say a couple of things that I'm curious about whether we should add one is we talk about the reference above to instruction is separate and distinct from healthy community building I also think it's separate and distinct from classroom resources um so nobody should be pulling books people I'm sorry but let me just say this out loud that's right no it's I as I understand it we haven't pulled books in this District no teacher should be pulling

125books no teacher should be inviting parents to pull books I don't think that has happened here and I think it's really important to say that I don't believe I've not heard of it and boy if it happens let us know let Dr furman's office know first before you call us cuz she's in charge but um you know I I I think by including the word resources we're signaling also that this isn't a law that requires that we take out books for example that reference families like mine with two moms um and so um that's the first thing and then the second thing is because we have then made the choice to add additional language about um continue to promote the education and social integration of trans gender and gender non-conforming students I would also like

126to see a reference to families who it's it's not just transgender gender non-conforming issues it also includes the word sexuality and that does that touches me and my family and so I would like to broaden that a little bit that we also have the um Duty and responsibility and we can kind of quibble or think about the language later of um of welcoming and creating a sense of belonging for all types of families and for all parents and Educators too who may um have uh who who may be queer in one way or another so um yeah I because we identify one I just feel compelled to say the other because we're not just talking about gender identity but also sexual activity and sexuality I wonder if just changing students to people might solve that

127can I take invite a um what I'd like to check in right now about is that what Sarah what I understand Sarah did is everything in italics she pulled from an existing procedure that exists with these words it's edited okay paraphrased or excerpted lifted okay gram purposes almost all phras are there I cut it's really long yeah yeah it's huge there's a little so I but I feel like that's important because what I'm what I'm thinking about what I'm holding right is that I think it's a great strategy to lift from when we are forced these operational policies to not only reference but to to lift from our policies our reform policies verbiage that highlights what we expect excerpts to say not just go read the whole 50-page thing and you'll find the important stuff

128but to highlight the important stuff and we're talking about wordsmithing it now in this space which this is the policy no that's not okay I specifically said whatever staff would bring back to us I was just I'm not trying to word Smith um so just to be clear not right now at least then maybe this is an overly concrete question but the process we could follow then is we could as a board say before we move on this we want to see a new policy 1710 that has language that we all agree is the right local reform policy so that we can accurately excerpt it in what we approve approve for these operational policies like that's the order of operations is that accurate yeah I mean go ahead Chris you were going to say something

129it is and there's also one other suggestion on specific topics like this especially if your intent is to address them either through a separate policy or procedure and that is this language could be rewarded to Simply say instruction on gender identity sexual activity or sexuality shall comply with existing law and board policy period the problem with that I but that means you're going to flesh it out very quickly in a separate policy yeah but but you know one of the things I think we have to do at least I want just want to respond briefly that I I struggle with that because we these policies are harmful without that context if you only read this policy it hurts right without this additional right so I think you have to add at least enough language so

130that when you read the policy we're all also adding something that that at least softens the blow to say but wait a minute we don't interpret this in this way I do think and I was going to suggest separately um that our our policy uh 1710 needs to be broadened i i i i or or a separate one written for families like mine so uh I think it's just I and and I also for what it's worth think that that's what I was looking at the policies earlier I also think we need to be looking at gender discrimination also in terms not just race there's different policies that I'm going to recommend that we think about um because there's there are things that happen in schools that are race-based and that's pernicious and horrible and

131there are things that happen in schools that are specifically sex based um that are also bad and we need to have policies addressing those um anyway for this purpose I appreciate the the context and the clarification that came from 1710 that's great I didn't make that connection and so let's work on 1710 and maybe a different policy um but I do agree with at least including some language here I've got a suest I think we have to decide what that language is today I've got a suggestion on that the suggestion would be to leave the red exactly as it is and then follow it with the reference above to instruction is separate and distinct from healthy community building and then add and educational resources in a within a classroom in a school as Educators play

132an essential role in creating a supportive School culture that respects and values all students and families period Then deal with the rest of it through procedure but there you've added at least one sentence that says what you really want to say at a policy level which is this is separate from respecting students families community building in other words like you said before a resource that has a a family with two moms in it is not illegal and I think you're wanting to make that point so that would be my suggestion is add that one additional sentence I can live with that I I can live with what Chris said um I've been I'm gonna just add something and it may go nowhere which is fine are we is this a Personnel policy mostly like we're

133telling who is supposed to read instruction on gender ident who is supposed to read instruction on gender identity will not be included and be informed by that it is the board telling the superintendent to make it so and it's up to her to decide how she communicates that and and um uh operationalizes that and it's very awkward language again that's why I started the way I did I mean these are law this is not laws 20 years ago were not written like this I I swear I'm not trying to just die in this ditch but this just so everybody sees it coming this exact same sentence is found in the longer one 1310 and I put the exact same thing in there so 1710 no 1310 1310 which is the saying you won't have to

134hear me say this twice cuz this I did the same thing twice once was here and my recommendation will be do what you're doing to this policy do that policy and I saw that coming but so here I mean we're all struggling with this and I mean at the heart of it is it's a bad policy and we all hope and pray that it will be you know overturned in the courts or elsewhere and I mean I don't care that we're proven what am I trying to say I would like to say as little as possible on these issues so could we simply say like we're take out the whole red thing and in we're informing the superintendent I you you wouldn't say it this way but the superintendent shall make sure such instruction is

135consistent with state and federal law like why do we have to say these words s repeat that last I'm sorry repeat that last question I didn't hear that why do we have to say what these words instruction on gender identity oh gotcha like why can't if the purpose of the words in our policy is to inform Maggie how to operational lead whatever Chris said at the school like I get that as a concept and I am not micromanaging you I'm happy for this to be in your lap and not ours right like that is not the problem and we want to make sure you know that we want all students to be supported and families like if these words that I added in italics are to make sure Maggie knows that's really important to us

136I I get that right I'm really just going back to and it's it's partly Title 9 it is partly other things that can we simply in ask superintendent to provide a comprehensive health education program that is consistent with state and federal law I yes I think your question is can we omit this sentence all together and at the beginning of the paragraph and let's just see a comprehensive health education program must be taught as required by law must include age appropriate instruction on the following issues first aid um yes I mean you you could slight it's assumed that the superintendent is going to provide a comprehensive health education system um you know as as an attorney you might want to add just a small phrase about in compliance with existing laws which would be easily

137done but no you do not have to have this language in the policy as long as you're comfortable that your superintendent is going to put that into place and again this could be an issue that is fully fleshed out in 1710 so yes you the board can do exactly what Miss thornberg has just recommended which is just say provide comprehens health education program as required by law and that's the only change is that phrase in the first paragraph and don't include this at all that's okay and so thank he answered my question I'm going to stop talking the administration will still have an obligation to comply with the law so and I get it that the administration may say that is not fair that I've only passed the book I I get that I just

138wanted to know the answer so I'm done I'm done now so this portion in red was put in by McKenna Osborne SCH boards Association and they took it directly from Senate Bill 49 okay word for word so that is in Senate Bill word for word okay yes sir is it unusual for policy to include statements of what to not do it stands out as a particularly harmful statement a particularly pointed statement to inflict injury oh I'm a lawyer now to inflict pain on a particular group of people by saying instruction on gender identity sexual activity and sexuality will not be included are I mean like are we currently instructing on gender identity is that something we're currently doing and we're going to stop I I think your point is uh directed at the general assembly

139and not the board because again again I'm not being flippant by that but this is the law and this is the way the law is written so yes boards would put it in policy if it's you know hypothetically speak generally speaking if the law contains a Prohibition then yes that same prohibition finds itself into Bo policy correct okay well so they're not breaking a norm by using this particular way of stating what you're not allowed to do I prefer question the school boards Association is doing what it has always done take his best us if there was a Prohibition on having this bestest materials they would put that prohibition word for word in your policy that's a good question okay I think it makes more sense to have an affirmative policy like what I feel

140like that's what Sarah is doing is saying here's what superintendent this is policy says this is what you should do is comply with the law on this type of instruction but I I appreciate that context Chris I I think that um I'm totally fine to just say you shall comply with the law on this part but in 1310 then I do think it makes sense to I'm I'm particularly interested in having us make a statement somewhere that instruction excludes resources and that's the attack we're I mean it's not just an attack it's the concern that that that's what this bill was intended to cover and um and I also don't quite know I mean I also think that if you read this policy literally and some of us have talked about this then you get

141no families depicted right because if you're going to talk about any sexual activity or gender identity you also mean straight and cisgender so um the the policy is written doesn't actually accomplish anything I think except to potentially exclude every reference to every family in everything if if it's read literally so the best we can do I think the idea of just saying complying by law for this purpose but I do think we should have a an additional um supplementation to 1310 that makes clear that when when we T when that that instruction as used in whatever we want to call it what Senate Bill 49 or however we want to refer to it um doesn't include resources and also that the that's and then the transgender versus other more expansive categories is a whole different

142issue that we might want to think about but that doesn't have to be done today at all does that make sense yeah it makes total sense so Mr chair what I would suggest is let's let's hold that out to the side I think the recommendation is a good one let's move to 1310 and in doing so the language on what instruction means for purposes of this provision could be addressed directly in 1310 and this policy could simply say a comprehensive heal health education program as required by existing law I think that's a an excellent way to deal with it you do not need the language twice so I think that's the proposal so if it's okay with everybody let's move to 1310 so before you go so you're saying take out the instruction on gender

143identity take out that red section and all of that completely and just stay with the opening sentence of yes so in the first paragraph We would add in an appropriate place that the Comprehensive Health education program will be provided in compliance with existing law okay yeah and you don't need to say exactly where that goes we can figure that out after the meeting well I just would want to well it says must include and it gives a line laundry list is the only I just need to think about it it's not a big deal we can handle it yeah that's not something I think clearly the board can just say make sure that it's clear that the program is in in conformance with the existing law we may not make a change at all I

144just need to think about it but I don't think that's a micromanages y'all y'all need to worry about I'm not worried about that does that will you respond to what we've said how does that work for you I actually prefer that no all right let's look at 1310 and 1310 is obviously the policy that has the most changes in it because it was your pre-existing parental involvement policy and again the changes that the school boards Association just tried to take an existing policy and make it in Conformity where they could uh and then we've added uh some additional things on top of that from some other resources to kind of make sure it's clear so the first section just basically some parent UH responsibilities and then the first change is you get down to to

145title one parent and family engagement plan under paragraph two uh and this is on the second page of the document some small changes but I I thought they were kind of pretty straightforward the Durham Public School decided not to include all of that additional language and just simply say you're going to have a written parent and family engagement plan that complies with our Title One in family engagement policy I personally think that's a great way to handle that and it's not a controversial issue at all I like that change uh to paragraph number two coming on down to the second section on parent communication participation and conferences again a language change in the second paragraph recommended by your board chair that the principal shall communicate uh I think again must just sounding like it was

146U language dictating shall certainly in a policy of this nature does the same thing so I don't have any issues at all with changing the must to a shall okay all right coming on down uh language uh regarding uh again at risk students and Mr seberg may want to speak to this more at risk is a term of art that is used by Educators it's used in general statutes I think you all know that but again the the connotation of what at risk means and the language in in this board being mindful of how language sounds and the power of language with your student body uh I think U Mr seberg again made an excellent exam recommendation to say let's include parents of identified students in the implementation of these things let's not call them

147at risk because we don't have to you want to add to that at all I don't have much to add to it if anyone has any questions yep thought that was a real good change okay next change for you to look at is under paragraph C2 which is on page four I'll give you a minute to get there the very top of page four this is the good old parent guide to student achievement uh and the state of North Carolina has issued a template and each School administration is taking that template and working on the specific information from the school district that has to be included in the template what the school board's Association did was they took the law and simply grafted everything that must be included in that document into board policy uh

148the Durham Public Schools decided not to do that because it's not necessary and they DEC decided to shorten this significantly by saying each year the superintendent or designate shall create such a thing that meets the requirements of state law and the State Board of Education all parents will receive a written copy of the guide to student achievement the information in the guide will be discussed at the beginning of each school year and meetings with students parents and teachers that paragraph is an accurate statement of what the law requires the rest of it is not necessary it's in the law it's in the sample guide that came from the state so again if you want to shorten this policy and not include language that you don't absolutely have to that's not a bad change to just

149remove all that now the counterargument would be this gives parents more information of what should be there again I would have more concern if this document was not coming to all school districts as a template from the State Department of Public Instruction and then your staff will just fill in the blanks so as an attorney I don't think it needs to be necessarily in policy because you will be using the template and modifying it like all other school districts so I don't think parents are disadvantaged by not having this in the policy when the guide itself will contain all of these in a template format can I ask a clarifying question the template that's being provided is there's it's not optional it's not for your information it is a required use the template is not

150required you could arguably create and that's a great question for Down The Road Not only is that document not required the information is required how you package the information is up to you so as a matter of the fact that this is something that uh really should be uh issued to parents as soon as possible our recommendation has been just take the template for now and modify it and go ahead and issue it but this board could say to the superintendent take a look at that State template and just see if there's a different way to do it so yeah that would be something to add to the list is once you folks see the parent guide for student achievement you might want it organiz organized a different way we actually went ahead and did

151this student guide the parent guide already um and it was to be we copied and pasted stuff in the template it was no new content it was everything we already had created just organized in this template is this the document that requires you to name all types of educational opportunities available we just linked the list of charter schools and other schools from the county AG we had a conversation in this group about how to provide comprehensive information about other types of educational opportunities so as they don't appear to be Superior or endorsed by yeah the county temp create for all of these and we just said for other educational opportunities you can access that information on the County website and linked it to that page cuz they're got it all there all right the next

152CH this is a little funny but we could always just say but we are better period yeah all right now we've we got to dig a few pages down let's go to page 10 of 15 and we're now under parent permissions required and specifically sub paragraph and this is kind of a technical wording change that I agree with as an attorney so I am suggesting that you make this change is that the language would Now read all decisions or actions regarding special education or related services to students with disabilities that require written parental consent shall be given to parents so it makes it clear that this law does not expand written consents to the parents of dis disabled students the reason that's important if I'm a board member I'm saying well wait a minute Mr

153laor you're saying that there's information we wouldn't give to a parent or we wouldn't get consent yes you get consent for just about everything you do as a school district with a child that's disabled you already have to get consents and mandated consents the way this was worded it could be argued that any decision would require parent consent which is a very difficult thing operational and you just don't want to have that argument out there do I think anyone would ever make that argument I don't think they would but you don't pay me to make advice to you based on what I think people might do but based on what people could do so let's just take this issue off the table and make it clear that written consents for special ad are dictated by

154existing state and federal law and not expanded upon by this policy um I have a question on page seven because we've had some questions about this from a parent page seven there is are cross outs information about men what menitis Influenza so the question has arisen why why that has been omitted does anybody know the answer to that and I do not do you know I just assumed that it was either dealt with somewhere else or it was a legal requirement that's been removed I mean it it probably is a legal requirement my my assumption would be that the state decided not to require that but the question has arisen why we wouldn't educate if we're going to educate on all these other things why aren't we giving information about flu so uh I would

155I would be interested to see and I might be able to get you an answer while we're meeting um let's go forward and then while y'all are discussing I'm going to look at what the school boards Association issued originally with these changes and it may answer that perfect thank you I'm gonna try to get you an answer right now all right so any issues with the change though to special education Ida hearing none we will move on down to page 11 okay now this is the language about the issue of notifying parents regarding pronouns and before you get to the green part which comes from the bunkham county schools the sentence immediately prior to that change is the sentence again directly taken from the law in addition the principal or design shall notify parents before

156any changes are made to the names or pronouns used for their children in school records or by school Personnel that is taken directly from Senate Bill 49 that particular sentence then the bunkham County Schools went on to add additional language about this particular issue and again I'll just read it uh for those that might be listening today School Employees must be mindful that transgender and gender non-conforming youth may experience family challenges some transgender students have not talked to their parents to know about their transgender status based on concerns about a lack of acceptance or safety the school principal or their design should speak with the student first to ascertain concerns the student may have as noted above these situations must be addressed on a case-by casee basis balancing the students request with the requirements of

157state and federal law the school principal or Des if necessary can should consult with the director of student services on how to proceed so let me address a couple of issues first of all that I think will be helpful for the board before you discuss this particular issue it has been the standard operating procedure of the ash City schools and in fact schools across the state uh that we work with and are knowledgeable about that when a student did Express a desire to have a gender transition that they would use gender support plans gender support teams School support teams it was standard operating procedure and always has been to involve the parent and I just would like for everybody to take a breath first I there are two ends of this spectrum and I think

158it Bears thinking about as you talk about this from a policy standpoint there are certainly children that feel like that if they were to express their gender identity to a parent that they feel like that that parent might have a very negative reaction to that and there could be a safety concern there and I think everybody recognizes that and certainly this policy and the law still provides that if we believe that for any reason a parent might harm a child we're required to report that to DSS it doesn't matter what the reason is on the opposite end of the spectrum are children that are and students that are transitioning and their parents are very supportive and very knowledgeable and want to be part of the discussion there's also the legal obligation of the school district

159to determine whether or not the student is transitioning there is a basic obligation legal obligation to look at each student each factual scenario and to ascertain is the child transitioning what are their legal rights that involves the parent so as you start to talk about this policy I want you all to be mindful that it has always been and probably always will be standard operating procedure to involve parents anytime a student says I want to accommodation in the schoolhouse be that through a transitioning of gender identity issues or disability or what have you so simply notifying parents has always been what schools have done because they want parents to be part of that team that meets and discusses the students in the request every fact pattern is different this subject is not as simple as

160just what pronoun would you like this this subject involves overnight field trips locker room access all those things and the law has been constantly evolving and I think this is an adult conversation give me 10 judges I will show you eight different decisions on a lot of these topics it is a very fluid issue right now and in fact our circuit courts disagree with each other and at some point the United States Supreme Court is going to have to weigh in on transgender rights so it's not it's always been a very complex issue with the needs of the child being Forefront and that usually has involved the parent now what has changed is in the past if the student said well don't want my parent to know there was no clear legal guidance on how

161the school district should deal with that it wasn't against the law to tell the parent but there was no legal obligation to tell the parent so School administrators across the United States of America have just on a case-by casee basis been working with students yes some districts have had policies that said you cannot tell parents some districts have had policies that say you always tell parents courts disagree on those polic policies so I don't mind saying all this in public because if you ask me a legal question I'm going to tell you I have no idea file a lawsuit and show me which court you're going to bring it in and Amy and Sarah and I can give you our best guess is how that Court May rule but these issues are not concrete they

162are all over the map so as you think about this what has changed is unless we feel like the student is in actual danger for which we have to notify DSS this Law requires that the parent know about it that's what that's all that has changed and I don't mean to belittle that point I'm just saying factually that's the only thing that's changed from the way that schools have traditionally operated parents have been at the Forefront of these issues because it the parent should be involved and again most of you as parents or a lot of you as parents know that if your child is is um is is looking at issues that impact their relationships with their peers and whatnot and and things at school need to be accommodated who where do you want

163to be you want to be at the table discussing those things so it's you know parents have always been part of it I just wanted you to to know that this school district has never had a policy one way or another that you don't tell parents or you do tell parents your administrators have dealt with it on a case-by Case basis in good faith doing the best they could so going back to what Rebecca said earlier what and what you just said you're saying we don't have a policy anywhere but you just did say that if a child felt they were in danger we're required to let DSS know is that in a policy anywhere that's child that's North Carolina General statute on child abuse but is in our policy yes okay that's what I'm

164I was just asking correct but the reason doesn't matter the policy and the law is simply if we believe the child could be in physical danger then we have to notice and really emotional harm can be a form of physical danger we have have to notify DSS but you will not find a laundry list of things that could be child abuse right that's never been there because every fact but just the general statement of what you were saying I I think um looking I didn't was just wondering if that could be inserted into here and with a reference to it as a policy or something um I see the the did what who okay County did okay yeah I'm just making sure that I was looking at the right thing okay yeah the bunkham county

165addition do mentioned that I have a question as well just about anywhere in s sp49 does it read that there there is a a timeline for reporting this to parents and I'm I'm asking that [Music] um because in talking with a child could the schools support the child in working towards disclosing it to their parents and would that satisfy the requirements of the law good question the way the law is written is that the school district cannot use the pronoun of choice the preferred pronoun until the parents are told so there is no timeline but strictly reading the law as written you could not use the pronoun until you first notified the parents whenever that is yes and there are times again that's why I call this an adult conversation because every fact pattern is

166different superintendent could speak to this there are times that a student may say to school staff and administration let me think through some things I'm not ready to do anything right now and we honor those requests if a student says to a school person don't say anything to my parents and let me think about all this and I'll come back to you later that's fine that's the student has the right to make we just can't use their preferred pronouns correct okay correct and when you say can we spell that out some somewhere in ask can you say when what does that mean so when you say that the student that we can't use is that a teacher is that before so read the paragraph again the sense again in addition the principal or design shall

167notify parents before any changes are made to the names or pronouns used by their CH children in school records or by school Personnel school records or School Personnel so no the teacher cannot start using the pronoun before the parents are notified as the laws written can school Personnel utilize non-binary pronouns across the board that's a good question I think that's something that we should kind of work through and talk with staff about there's not a lot of legal guidance on non-binary at all that's going to be the next round of litigation that's a good point and I think that there are many people who already do that as a general rule and how they approach their communication well I I suppose one way to handle that is if a teacher I mean one one way

168that teachers could could handle this I think is to send out a letter at the beginning of the year I'm going to refer to all students as they and you've complied with the policy pardon me because you notified you notify all parents and so now you've notified them that you're going to just and and it's a it's a really kind of clever way to um I think subvert what's pernicious about this part of the law is just to say we're going to use they for everyone and and that's that now whether that satisfies transgender students who specifically want to be you know that it it probably doesn't undermine it in that context uh and and it also but but anyway it's an interesting I think that at least that if you you could do it

169as long as you did it to everybody as long as you let the parents know you were doing it at the beginning of the year now as you think through this let's go one more step and let's read again the potential language that Miss thornberg lifted paraphrase from 1710 P the next paragraph Den Standalone language in providing such notice the principal or design shall keep in mind that it is also the policy of the Asheville City Schools to maintain a safe and supportive School environment for all students creating a school culture that respects and values all students and fosters understanding of gender identity and expression within the school community that could be included here that could be added to a procedure it could refer to a procedure for more information on that particular topic uh

170and again this is in line with the discussion you've already had earlier uh that we had about the additional language if you want to say something more if you don't like leaving it at the one sentence that's there you could add this as an additional sentence and you could also make reference to the child abuse and related threats to child safety policy just like bunkham County Schools did so you could accept Miss thornberg addition and also add a site directly to your child abuse policy and uh I assume every non-conforming confirming should be non-conforming do you see that in the bunkham County's language uh sorry it says gender non-confirming in the first um sentence that's a typo yeah yeah it's a typ I just want to make sure that typo doesn't make it into our

171policy thank you I'm also going to go double check their policy cuz I thought I did a cut and paste I don't know if that's me or not check it and see they'll want to know that I thank you I um there are two places in s sp49 in the Litany of grand standing that this law represents two places that I find really harmful we've looked at one on teaching instruction and this is the other one and I'm I'm activated in my nervous system I am I'm feeling really upset I could he I can feel us trying to thread needles um with being subversive you know and um in our Equity statement we name that we will create pause when harm and i' I'm I'm just really really frustrated that there's not a way for

172us to I don't want to derail all our work I want us to focus on our big picture goals I don't want any students and just just the fact that they put it here right is so hard harmful and so like the kids who just won't come forward that's what I'm worried about the news the law says stay in the shadows and that's what they're trying to do and that's what this is doing and that's very this is the harm this we've distilled it I think okay can I add something to that all of this could be overlooked if a principal went to number six are we down there for yet or are we still up because number six states that the principal shall review the concern and may elect to schedule and hold a

173meeting with the parent within five days after the concern was submitted so everything that we had just said if I was a principal and and someone came up to me I'm going for that right there to saying that I am covered with any law that is stated in here is that true that is true so again this is another area that if as far as board policy you could have a statement that the use of um pronouns shall comply with existing law period I mean I'm going like you said if someone's got a concern going to be routed through the concerns portion of the policy that is correct yeah I was going to say that that I mean it is it doesn't change in some ways right not to read it I suppose the law

174still exists but maybe it maybe it's by adopting a policy that says that refers to the law and it and not one that describes the law is there a benefit to that pardon me I agree with that and then we can add our langu we still have our language yeah yeah I think our language would still be there and um you know we it would omit I don't think there would be any reason to include bunkham County's language at that point I think we would omit bunkham County's language um and even though it you know it seems like it's a it's I don't know uh smoking mirrors in some ways I also think that there is value to what is printed on a page and the what is in the policy it's it's harmful to

175read these words it's painful to read these words and if they don't exist and it's a reference to a policy that includes those words it's at least easier for me to read the policy and not feel personally attacked or that someone else is being personally attacked so the proposal then would be to Simply make a change to that sentence prior to the to the new language that in addition principal design uh shall comply with existing law with regards to the use of pronouns period and then we would add Miss thornberg language in providing such notice the principal shall keep in mind and we would also make reference right there to the child abuse policy um would it be possible question uh to make a more broad statement that our parent notification uh policies will comply

176with the law without specifically referring to the pronouns provision like can we make that up earlier I as your attorney i' as long as you're dealing with the specific issue because your staff's going to need guidance as long as you're dealing with the issue through procedure or a separate policy I think that'd be fine yeah I mean somewhere we have the policy that um and this was something else that was brought brought up I think by one of our folks who um commented today that teachers are are going to call parents and of course that's not the policy policy is explicitly not for teachers to be making those phone calls and that they should refer to the principal so elsewhere somewhere in here we describe how that procedure should work and so I think that

177covers Us in terms of what our in Educators need to know how to handle situations like this they simply go to the principal and then the principles are responsible for implementing the policy yeah so um yeah I think it's an issue that could be fleshed out more in procedure or later in policy so your your suggestion again would be then to um to just make reference to the principles the principes shall make all parent notifications as required by law something that simple yeah something like in that and board policy as required by law and board policy in compliance with law and board policy are we talking about the third paragraph there no yeah talking about the red sentence right above the bunam county change okay right so well I'm saying the at the beginning it

178says the principal or designes shall notify parents of changes and certifi CER blah blah blah blah um for their children with changes being made at as required by and that's a separate legal requirement in the ACT yeah I get that but I still think I I understand that there is sort of if you parse these that's why I was looking at maybe going up even further at the beginning of this whole section of parent notification and having maybe a general sentence that parent notification procedures will comply with whatever it is General statute General statute section 115 C or what ever it is that provides for that um that in which the pronoun provision is included but maybe not the subsection because we we just don't need to be that specific if we're going to be

179more General does that make sense it does okay so I I would suggest maybe doing that in that way because even when you read the word pronouns you've now kind of set off the emotional reaction yeah and and I think that change certainly with some other things we've talked about earlier is similar that make that change to say that notifications will comply with existing law and board policy which we can easily do and then the nuts and bolts of how that works is either going to be in a board policy or a board procedure so as an attorney you're completely covered because it is clear to employees what the process is and you and you do need to have it in writing as to what a teacher is supposed to do um that's going to

180be in there as you stated so I'm I'm fine with that and we have that somewhere in here right either here or you may decide to we'll get to it in a minute uh you can leave it in here or you can say let's let that be something we also put in this separate policy okay thank you sure okay give me just a minute so just so I'm on the same page we would be taking out the buckham county Edition you would be taking out the first of all you would take out the last sentence prior to that Edition on page 11 you would remove completely the sentence that reads pronouns and use correct that reads in addition the principal does shall notify parents you're going to deal with that uh later and you're going

181to add an introductory sentence about just making uh required reports then the bunkham county language is not needed here I wouldn't recommend including the buckham county I don't think you would include Miss thornberg language yet here because again you're not discussing this issue yet so I don't think any there's any need for that so I would not include any either of those thank you sure hey Chris yeah when you're adding I think we're giving you the authority to Wordsmith as required by law right phrase you're going to throw in as you're doing that were you think about federal and state law like is there a way to what I typically will put is in compliance with state and federal law and board policy and I think that's a great reminder I'm gonna write that across

182the top of my page Chris is there a reason or is it just because it sounds better that you say state and federal law as opposed to federal and state law we go federal and state I'm just thinking about like order of yeah operations right yeah we'll we'll do federal land State okay sure all right does the board this is a good place to take a quick five minute break if you need one right a separate section of Senate Bill 49 and again this language is lifted from the statute no school system policy procedure or form will expressly or otherwise prohibit School Employees from notifying parents about their child's mental emotional or physical health or well-being or a change in a related service or monitoring nor will any school system policy proc procedure or form

183intentionally encourage or be designed in a manner that is reasonably likely to have the effect of encouraging any children to withhold from their parents information about their mental emotional or physical health or well-being or a change in related services or monitoring hey Chris I'm sorry to interrupt you where are we at the bottom of page 11 11 of 15 11 to okay okay no this is the struck through language oh oh you're reading the I'm reading the stru I think it's at the top of it's at the bottom of 15 11 and the top of 12 okay I was just trying to see where you were yeah okay then goes on to say school Personnel shall not encourage or prohibit parental notification or involvement in critical decisions affecting a student's mental emotional physical health or

184well-being so put aside that last sentence for just a minute this language is something you shall not put in policy procedure or form so this language is lifted directly from the statute I will tell you it is not procedurally an issue for your staff because again as you parents would expect when there are services or monitoring of a child's emotional or mental well-being the parent is involved in that the parent is notified our third party service providers have professional obligations to notify parents Durham County took this out because it is not pro it is not proactive policy requirement it's something you shall not put in policy so they decided is if this is something we shall not put in policy let's just not put it in policy so they did remove it so that's why

185they struck through it again I don't have a recommendation either way because it's it's not an operational issue uh you do not have a policy that discourages students from talking to their parents or a procedure uh so this is language that you could choose to leave in because it's from the statute but I don't see where you have to have it when you say statute you mean the Senate Bill 49 Senate Bill Bill not statute Senate Bill correct well which became stat but okay I mean I'm just making existing statute versus Senate Bill 49 is a great way to to say that the last sentence though is a little more affirmative uh it is in the law school Personnel shall not discourage or prohibit parental notification of and involvement in critical decisions affecting a student's

186mental emotional physical health or wellbeing um that is a legal prohibition that you can graft into policy um so that one is a little more affirmative in nature you could choose to leave in that last sentence you could choose to leave it all in you could choose to strike all of it I mean isn't it looking for thoughts basically the between you the negative version of georg's change that school Personnel shall not that where you changed coers was that in this policy or was yeah and that was in there before yes and you're right that was in the person policy saying this is what we're not going to do right so in that respect you that's a great Point uh Miss Kelly is that you have already included the language that your staff needs to

187know and this is in a parent information policy so it's that last sentence is really not necessary for school Personnel because you've already directed School Personnel yeah so that's a great Point that's another reason you wouldn't need to include this just because this is in the law doesn't mean it has to be in policy I'd be inclined to take it all out okay everyone okay taking it out then anyone feel strongly okay okay that Chris before you go go ahead could you just for my sake I'm old I forget things um we are taking out in section one um you're we're taking out from a that last sentence in the paragraph before the bunkham county um correct addition all of the bunkham county addition correct and then the addition by Sarah correct none of that

188will be included in addition from the school boards Association you're going to strike the next paragraph okay just want to make sure that's right no good summary thank you we're now at the top of page 12 paragraph two discussions related to student well-being um I I think that for whatever reason Durham just felt like there wasn't a reason to cite the parents Bill of Rights directly and still include the language from the law uh I'm fine with that change if you'd like to follow a suit on that as well okay very good just as you're going through this and making those notes just similar to when Rebecca needed apolog just thinking about sorry um similar to when Rebecca needed a pause looking here at paragraph three parent access to student records as we as we

189kind of go back to the conversation we were having around putting together our core values think about a a legislator that feels emboldened to make a law that says parents will not be prohibited as if to say that in the past school systems and public schools in particular have prohibited parents from accessing their CH their children's education health records Etc I mean it's just like the the what like for for those of us who are artists it's like the negative space right it is what what is being said in the negative space around this is distrust and I know that we've said this before but it's just what's really kind of bubbling up for me right now is how much of the language of this bill even the things that quote unquote aren't pernicious are

190pernous just to public education in general to imply that parents haven't had access to these things before by having to write it in as a negative kind negatively phrased law it's just H anyway that's the pause that I need right now so let me offer you language that would say parents shall have access to any of their children's education health records etc etc doesn't the law already say that in other places haven't we said this already it does but the law does want you to give parents notification of their rights in one place I don't do we have to do that I'd have to go back in I mean because in other words even the one before under sub paragraph 2 seems ridiculous to me well there another way to look at this though is

191take the current debates completely out of the picture this is a policy that is a brand new parent that moves to North Carolina from California could look at this one policy say oh okay here are all my rights so that's why as your your Council I I would not advise taking things out because I think it is a nice summary for parents regardless of the issues that are being debated yeah today I think having a policy that does enumerate parent rights is is not a bad thing especially for parents who may not be familiar with what their rights are in this state I think that's fair unless the policy already describes it we don't need redundant policies I'm just saying you'd have to look at different yeah so I mean I just I I don't

192know but I mean I I could have swear that we've already been through the health stuff and in the health stuff it says we have to do we have to provide them with unless I'm wrong but I I really thought that are it may not have used the words created maintained or used by the school system but it says parents shall have access to these things I thought what if what if we just put that at the beginning is that if parents will not parents will have access da d da I think that's fine I'm I'm quibbling a little because this is feeling redundant and that drives me up a wall sure sure but that's fine we'll make it affirmative sure then the student Support Services training Durham took that out because again that's just

193a requirement it doesn't have to be in policy it's something that your Administration has to do is to provide training and that training is going to come from the Department of Public Instruction so they just didn't feel like it was necessary in the policy I don't have a strong feeling either way if somebody'd like to propose a way to go leave it in or take it out okay okay then that brings us to back to the language uh that we had discussed before about instruction on gender identity sexual activity or sexuality the first thing to note is that the Durham Public Schools did reorder the words instead of sexual activity sexuality and gender identity um that no excuse me that's how they rewarded it I think they did not want it to lead with gender

194identity and end with sexuality they decided to make it sexual activity sexuality and gender identity don't know if anyone has feelings about the ordering of the the words or not obviously they did because they made that change I prefer their order the Durham order okay I didn't think I didn't think that I would have a feeling about that but like now that we're being asked if we have a feeling about it um I would think gender identity coming first sexuality and then sexual activity just I think the ration and I'm speculating but I think they felt like that leading with gender identity put too much of an emphasis on gender identity to where sexuality is much broader based I think they felt like a specific group was being singled out by that phrase being first

195okay that's just my assumption I haven't talked to their attorney so would it be rewarded and again this is a this is a matter of The Power of Words and semantics this is up to you whether you feel like the order matters doesn't change anything say it's just what message does that necessarily send so I don't want to belabor the point it's not it has no legal significance at all so we were to go with the reordering that Durham did would that then change it in the actual statute I would then suggest changing it to be the same order in the paragraph Yes good point yeah to be consistent that's a good point okay so are we the your point I agree with how Chris described it that's how I took it too that they

196put it first to Target gender to Target families that don't conform they this is who they're wanting to other and so that's why they put it first and that I I could I would prefer the other it as like putting gender identity first as normalizing it but normalizing it as as they disallow instruction on it yeah I see your point L but I think I think because it is a a negative right it's it's it's they're trying to make it deficient will not be included like if there was some if there was a way to put if there was a law that was giving it some [Music] some if there was a positive law yeah right yeah then I then I agree with with you but I do think the fact that it's like will

197not and I'm I'm also making the assumption that in that highlighted portion and the the part that appears in the quotation marks that they have omitted instruction on from that section but maybe I'm so if it instead of reading instruction on gender identity sexuality and sexual activity I'm proposing that it read gender identity sexuality and sexual activity and I can see it from a multitude of perspectives too and I don't know and again I know that words and punctuation matter I don't know if the omission of a comma was gr Public Schools or me tell you the truth I'd have to go back and look at that it's poor use of the absence of the officer at comma we all know that but anyway the serial comma um I I knew the op comma would

198come up at some point I'm glad we finally got it out um I I will just say my two senses that um we should move gender identity to the end because whether no matter how this is titled we know what the purpose of this paragraph is and I like the idea of putting gender identity at the end myself because I think that doesn't Target a group quite as explicitly we're all targeted by this but anyway um I also want to suggest that at the end of that paragraph Chris I should given you this suggestion earlier but it didn't occur to me but does not include responses to student initiated questions or general classroom resources yep and I think there um we can definitely add that and then this is also the place where you would

199want to consider adding back the one sentence from Miss thornberg Edition from earlier today where we started uh and I can go back to that particular Senate so you could add what you just said and make Miss thornberg addition there here is language that is recommended for this specific policy and I think basically what you had said was that instruction is separate and distinct from healthy community building and educational resources within a classroom in a school as Educators play an essential role in creating a supportive School culture that respects the values of all students and Families period that was the additional sentence would you want to add that sentence here yes okay yeah I mean but if if we're going to if we're going to do that we might also um it's that's fine that's

200fine I'll leave it great then when you come down um I actually would say does not include responses to student initiated questions or general classroom resources period and then I would include Sarah's sentence the way it is I like her I like the fact that she's got kind of this healthy environment and and we can be more we can put the classroom resources in with what it in the exclusion in the definition and hers is more of a principle based description of what instruction doesn't include does that make sense that does okay great thank you so then we're down to remedies for parent concerns now before we get into the remedies for parent concerns I want you to go to the document that uh is in the same email it is 1310 P procedure and

201it's titled notice of Parental concern form I think it's the very first document in the email okay concerns are not just in anything concerns are not I have a concern and I'd like to go to court and the reason this is so important is because under s sp49 if a parent is not satisfied with the resolution of a parental concern they can ask for a state board of education hearing and you have to pay for it or they can sue you in court so we want to be very precise that a concern is not just anything a concern is only the things that the general assembly have said that a parent could go to the State Board of Education or to a court to complain about so we created an our office and recommended to

202our clients a notice of Parental concerns form so that principles are going to continue to do what they've always done and that is work with parents about concerns to resolve things but if a parent were to say oh no I've got a concern under the parents Bill of Rights that I want to go to the school board I think I have a right to sue over we would give them this form and we would make them be very precise so it cites the law it cites policy and it says I have a concern regarding my child and the procedure or practice of my child's school that comes directly out of the general statute procedure or practice of my child School you must check the all that apply and provide a factual basis for each and

203each description include the following if appal the name of any school system employees or other individuals whose actions are an issue any specific laws regulations or policies believed to have been violated and you're going to tell me we started with number one with number two we didn't start with number one I see that we'll fix that um any concerns with policies regulations believ to be violated and four the specific resolution that you the parent desire and attach additional Pages if necessary why did we make it a check the box these are the concerns the statute allows so instead of just leaving it up to the poor principles to try to figure out I know what some of you may be thinking well why give a parent A playbook that these are the things they can

204complain about well they can complain about them anyway they have a statutory right to complain about them and do you really want your poor principles on a Tuesday morning with everything else going on at the school trying to figure out whether or not it's a parent concerned under the parents Bill of Rights we think no and I think your superintendent agrees it's just easier for the P principal to hand this form to the parent and say Mr Campbell if you'll fill this out I'll be more than happy to meet with you and address your concern so as we go back to the policy now know that these are the enumerated concerns from the general statute any questions about that before we go back to the policy okay sorry Chris just um I keep getting hung

205up in the like some some concerns are concerns and some aren't concerns do we have to use the word concern I would because that's what the statute uses that's what the state board policy uses that one is a legal term Revol since that word allows you to go to court I want to use that word yeah a great question um is it is it possible and again it may not be but is it possible to just say have a remedy provision for this entire section this says remedies related to student health and then there's another section later if I'm not mistaken that has remedies for something else is that right yes it is remedies for a parent request for information is it I mean as this is board policy and not procedure can we just

206say we're going to provide the remedies described in blah blah blah and then hit period or do you recommend going through all what I would recommend there because I want to be prise about this is you could take this out of policy and put it in a procedure yeah so I mean does it need to be in both places it's not in procedure right now the only thing in procedure is just to check the box form okay um I actually would recommend leaving this in policy since it is since it has such significant consequences okay thank you sure good question I don't really care that much I'm just looking at making the policy shorter yeah and I usually we're not down into this level of granular detail in policies that makes me feel a little

207but I defer so if if they weren't able to go to the state board or Court I would agree with you but that's the concern there if a parent is submitting this concern form mhm does that [Music] guarantee what what happens next like if it's great question goes to the principal the principal will then take the form and try to resolve the issue with the parent and see if they can resolve what their concern is with the parent if they are unable to resolve that then it goes to the superintendent and the uh concern has to be resolved within 15 days after after the parent initially submitted the concern if it's not resolved within 15 days I think we say to the principal try to resolve it within five days if you can't resolve it

208within five days it goes to central office central office can't get it resolved within 15 days it will come to you and let me stop right there we want it to come to you the statute doesn't say it has to come to you and you could take that out of this policy but we want it to come to you because before somebody goes to court we want this bored to have an opportunity to weigh in I'd much rather stand up in front of let's just say Alan thornberg Superior Court judge and supremor court and say judge thornberg the Board of Education fully considered this and here's the record here are the findings of the board uh this is not something the court needs to consider further that's much more powerful than the principal and the

209superintendent at X Y and Z you also have a better chance to resolve it at that level and we are working right now with the State Board of Ed education this law allows a parent to complain about a concern what the court is supposed to do about that I have no idea this law doesn't create new rights it just gives you the right to raise a concern I don't know what a judge does with that with all due respect I don't know what a judge does with that I cannot think of a law that says you have a right to complain but we're not going to tell you what your rights are well if it does impede a right which it might so I'm not being completely factious here a concern could obviously Target a

210legal right and the judge will deal with that and the court will deal with that but there're also going to be a host of concerns that I think don't deal with rights they just be disagreements of viewpoint or disagreements of how things are handled and we're working with the state board that hopefully their policy they're going to have a way to screen these out and say this isn't a legal concern we're not going to hear because it's not a legal concern and I want you to be able to weigh in at that level too if you feel like something doesn't affect somebody's rights it would be nice for you to be able to say that so that's where it goes so then let's say it goes to the State Board the state board will have

211to decide whether or not it is a legitimate concern based on the facts if it is they are supposed to hear it and make some kind of determination and they're working through what their power is right now what they can do the ACT does not tell a court what to do with a concern so there's a lot of uncertainty with this and I just feel like if it can be dealt with at the Schoolboard level that is going to significantly reduce the chance we have to deal with it in court so if a if a parent submits this form to the principal and it's it's not a violation is do the principal can determine that say that then the principal is probably going to call central office and say help me out here I want

212to make sure I'm right I don't see where we violated any policies so the response to the parent will be we didn't violate any policies parent says I don't like that goes to the superintendent superintendent says I'm sorry Mr Campbell we didn't violate any policies parent says I don't like that comes to you you take a look at it say we didn't violate any policies any laws anything parent says I don't like that I'm hoping a judge will say tough I'm not going to waste my docket with your disagreement with how they do things at a school district I'm hoping the state board will weed these out you know now if there is a policy or a law or a parental right that has potentially been violated absolutely we will you know that's what courts

213exist for but that's what I'm hoping will happen Okay thank you that's my hope so that sets it all out and the the changes the additions you know Amy's Right This is highly technical it's just the process itself so I don't really have any suggestions for you other than to adopt all of these changes and then we made no changes to parent information thank good parent information doesn't go to court parent information is just I want the information and the final Arbiter of that is you the school board so if I'm a parent and I feel like I've asked for something that the Senate Bill 49 gives me a right to access or another law does and you haven't given it to me as far as I can go as this board uh so that's

214why we didn't have any changes to that that is it if if I could indulge upon you for just a second to go back and just quickly go through the recommendations for each policy if y'all are ready to vote we should do that if you're not ready to vote Mr chairman I can still do that if folks just want this as information but if you feel like you might be ready to vote I can go through the changes and then it can be a simple motion to to adopt the policy changes as stated I don't think Chris was here when we decided we're doing public comment no I I spoke to Chris about that so um but the the decision is still ours if we choose not to vote we we choose not to it's

215okay I mean that's that's on us just if we do vote there wouldn't be public comment right correct that is correct so I um as far as I understand Chris correct me if I'm wrong this gets reported to the state in September as to when we did this so right in September you are well a couple things one is everyone knows but if you'll just bear with me real quick that the the legal requirements already in place the the requirements to put policy is already in place number two it's obviously public record to the whole world when you act whether you report to the state or not so that's fine and then number three the formal reporting to the state that you are in compliance with the law does not come until September of 2024

216that's correct um I I my my personal preference based on where we are now is is to allow some public comment even though and and I would also say that it might be useful for us to think about before that public comment is offered describing the parts of this bill that really do trouble us as opposed to the most of the bill which simply codifies what we've been doing um I I still feel like that we've said this a number of times in public session it hasn't been heard by everyone and I think that it just never hurts if we're going to say if we're going to notice public comment on this particular issue that we precede that public comment with the policies that we're actually considering and how we've changed them and describe describe

217what we've done to um to alter the proposed com you know the proposed um policies and why we did it and then I don't know does that make sense like I was I was actually going to ask if we could have once in instead of voting today um let Chris take this back clean it up um then actually do a side by side uh post it uh a side by side of this is what was proposed this is the change that we've made and they can give people a chance to look at that before the February 1 meeting and we could do public comment there uh that's going to be a budget meeting anyway so we could do public comment there and go ahead vote then but I think that gives two weeks let people

218look over it hopefully oh I choked him up that's choking me up over here that's really good this is all very very doable so uh I just want to make sure I'm clear you what you would like to be available to the public uh on the website is the versions you looked at today and the changes that we discussed today clarify I think the version we looked at today had a lot of I'm thinking more the version that the SBA gave us that's where I was going compared to where we're Landing that's what I would recommend the SBA changes and then today's changes put that on the website okay that's what I meant was the the original that we originally got and then the next question is do you want to Simply wait on all

219of that until February 12th or do you want to have public comment at your work session on February 5th with the February 1 we were talking about February first we have a speci call meeting but it's a special call meeting correct now you do have three let me you know think about this for a second because you have three meetings right in a row right you have February 1 budget February 5th work session and February 12th regular session what would make sense to me is you accept public comment before the meeting at which you're going to take a final vote so you could either accept public comment on the 1 and vote on the 12th or you could accept public comment on the 5th and vote on the 12th and and just to be sure

220because you've said this you've cautioned us about kicking this can down you're okay as our legal counsel if we wait till the 12th vote on this boy that's a low loaded question your legal counsil cannot ever say that they're okay with you missing a deadline so it is what it is and I think Miss Ray said that I think if this board wants to accept public comment you will you you are doing all of this in good faith I mean you really are proceeding and no one can ever question that's really this board is proceeding in good so you know to have public comment on the the first and then vote um on the 5th of the 12th would would be great but I also want to be sensitive to the fact that a budget

221Workshop it's a tough thing to add something to a budget Workshop that's what I was going to ask relatively speaking is the first pretty full that evening as compared to the fifth I no I is that true that was to George I know the first is full all pretty full I don't think we've we haven't really talked very much yet I don't think George and I have met with Maggie about the agenda on the fist so I don't think we have a very good sense of that you probably do more Maggie I think I feel compelled to make it even more difficult we also need to have public comment about what's going to happen tonight we need to be inviting at least I would suggest two sessions of public comment related to potential reconfiguration of

222our middle schools and I Wonder just curious about whether or not we can combine those two things in other words I don't actually anticipate we're going to get that much public comment on this issue and I would like to you mean these policies I mean these policies I mean I think if we put them out there and we have them available and then we say we're inviting public comment on on either or both of these issues on two nights in different places that's just my suggestion maybe it's a bad one um but we or or we or we proceed as we are and then do the public comment for the middle the middle schools at another time I'm sensitive to the fact that the clock is ticking and that we need to make a decision

223on the middle schools and potentially other school reconfigurations you know in the next month or so could we would could we do so could we do public comment on sb49 on the 5th we'll vote on the 12th we already have a public comment at our regular schedule board meeting anyway um so we could we could potentially have two there I don't want to do two but then with the everything that's going to happen this evening since that is kind of tied to the budget have possibly uh comment public comment at the meeting on the first at the first like the first 15 20 minutes or whatever you want to say and then go I know it's it's cramming a lot but I think that that's you know that was one of the things that's been

224talked about with all the information that's gone out is budget concerns and this m this meeting is a budget meeting um I just don't want to have all of that you know both public comment type of things going on at one time I think that they need to be separated out so that we know you know cuz there are people who might have concerns with sp49 who don't care about the Middle School um and so like I said either leave our regular public comment on the 12th it's it happens before we vote anyway so people could could do that so we could just do a normal then and then have a public comment on the first because that's going to be very specific I I appreciate that that need want desire to separate them and

225I'm totally fine with that I absolutely absolutely do not think we should have Middle School comment on the budget session meeting that is going to be two long meetings of just comment um and and I really feel so strongly that and I know this board does as also that like our duty is to make sure that all of our families have the opportunity to speak to us about how they feel about the proposed reconfigurations and um that they have multiple opportunities to do do that and preferably in two different locations so that's my suggestion so I I wouldn't do anything on the night of the budget as I'm a little agnostic as to whether we have the I prefer sort of based on what George was reading about public comment in his section on the

226reform policies that we really start to think about soliciting public comment before we have to make the decision and maybe even taking public comment out of our regular board meetings and putting them into times when they're more so maybe so and more focused in other words we don't get just general public comment about some of the things we've had to sit through because we're more targeted and we noticed that the special meeting and we're going to have public comment and we invite comment on these subjects anybody can come in and say anything they want during those times but they won't be formal board meetings and maybe there's less incentive for them to say those kinds of things if it's not a formal board meeting just thoughts let me also say one of things all of

227you can be thinking about it I'm going to give you a hypothetical example of three Elementary Schools elementary school a andc I said this is a hypothetical a board of education somewhere in California using North Carolina law wants to consolidate Elementary A and B into Elementary C okay that under North Carolina law requires a specific study and a specific public hearing so you can have all the inputs you want right now but just so everybody's clear they can't be a vote on something like that until you've created the statutory required study you've put that out there for public consumption and you've had a specific public hearing so this is great you're doing all kinds of but if there were to be a decision down the road to consolidate two schools that's going to require an

228additional public hearing just want to make sure everybody knew that cons you can't you can't you can consolidation not co- housing not co-housing if the if the if both schools still exist both schools still have a school number both schools still have a principal and both schools have their own student body that would not require that's just collocation on a physical site thank you and what um I I'm curious so describe to me what that study has to be the it's in the general statute and there's actually a page that uh we can get to you that says everything it's like what are the geographic considerations what are the traffic considerations what will the impact be on the student body receiving these students what's the so it's things that are kind of Common Sense and

229we do it ourselves we don't we do do it ourselves we do not have to hire somebody to do it so theoretically that study can be done next week like if we have all the information be done very quickly yes if we need if we have all the information we need if one of the one of the proposals will be to merge these two schools not it's not the only proposal but one of the suggestions one of the options of reconfiguration is going to be to merge them it seems to me we should have that study then done we'll we'll work with your staff on and get ready to have that study completed so that it is an option because what we don't want to do is do something like move one school into another

230because we didn't do a study and not make the right decision if that's the decision that that at least four of us think is correct um nor do we want to do anything until we've listened to everyone and gotten all the exciting creative ideas that are going to be offered tonight and then you know but I'm I'm just jump in to say if this study needs to happen we should probably look at um because it is at least one of the reconfiguration possibilities that I assume will be considering yes and the study's great information period so there's no reason for your staff to wait on pulling that study together sure so one thing i' I'd like to propose because I feel like we're moving into that direction about you know the tonight's meeting and all

231that um I I not to shut down conversation but thinking like let's go ahead and decide as far as public comment on sp49 decide how we want to do that and then I was going to propose um Maggie if you would kind of to close out our meeting because there's still other people listening you could kind of give an overview again of what tonight is about and then we can kind of lay out what the next steps are so um one one option that similar to Amy's about around this comment is we could you know we're if we're choosing not to vote today which I which sounds like that is the decision of the board then we could you know it goes on to our regular meeting on February 12th um we could ask for

232a public comment on the 12th ahead of that vote and but as that ask that public comment to only be about Senate Bill 49 and then save the rest of public comment to the end of the meeting that that's how some boards operate they've done it before in that way so that's another option I don't mean to muddy the waters with yet another but it does mean that we keep public comment at regular board meetings as we usually have done them as opposed to adding public comment to a special called meeting on the first or a work session where we typically don't take public comment on the on the fifth and to add to that real quick just so everybody understands if you did decide to have a special session on the 5th you could

233not prevent somebody from talking about it again on the 12th because that's the regular public comment so to George's point you know if you have it on the fifth folks may still wait till 12 just a point for for what it's worth I prefer the fifth and I'll tell you why I I just really don't like getting public comment about something I'm about to vote on in 10 minutes that feels wrong to me so I would ra if if it's a big decision like these policies I would prefer to get them a week earlier and but that's just my thought similar to Amy but here's where my question is is Amy are you suggesting we receive comment on the 5ifth to vote on the 12th I would agree with that um um because George what

234I don't like about doing on the 12th is moving some of the comment to the end is we've then made it after we voted which is why I think we always had it before I guess I'm just saying putting public comment at the end of the meeting where you already voted doesn't seem helpful to me but anyway that's actually well so I would like to clarify that what I was saying is that all public comment related to Senate Bill 49 would come up before we vote no it was the part that you were moving to the end that how do we know that other public comment that's not related to right but as a matter of course I wonder if we might consider moving public comment to the end of the working session because then

235people have heard what we are considering they give us their input we've been informed by that and a week later we vote I mean that's to Amy's Point having public comment after a work after a official meeting seems we've already voted okay that yeah yeah we can kind of keep massaging that question I I think as we move forward one of the issues now is we know we have kind of this big decision and so it feels very important to hold that public comment earlier um I think it I think that's right too Sarah about I like that idea except for the fact that our work sessions already already tend to go too long so you know it's sort of discipline around how do we manage our we have just taken on a whole lot

236this year and and for good reason uh my My Hope Is that as we move through some of the more difficult decisions we've had to make we can shorten our work sessions and do exactly that or come up with a better way but as we and and also thinking about how we're trying to forecast the issues out further where if we have a a work session in March but we don't vote until April then we can hold the public comment on the work session in April for that April you know before the April board meeting where we actually cast the vote just anyway we could work on that later so it sounds like the fifth is the is what most people prefer for that public comment the fifth but but to to related to S

237sp49 but to Sarah's Point doing it at the end of the work session saying that right now no I'm I'm asking that that's more of a that was a question I mean I know you had you had mentioned something about doing potentially doing it at the end of the work session for s sp49 for sb49 we're going to send it out by email invite public comment at the beginning of the 5th so beginning of the fifth I think is what we said in general James I think the conversation is if we want authentic public comment in real time it probably ought to track our work meetings and we can talk more about that last thought on this particular one and I agree with all you've said about the future you've just really considered these policies

238and made changes I think at the work session on the 5th it will be helpful to have the public comment first because you've made your decision so I think that allows you to then discuss what you just heard on the so my recommendation would be leave put the public comment just on sb49 because at the work session you can restrict the topic it would only be for S sp49 policies and do it at the beginning all right great thank you everyone so we'll have public comment specific to S sp49 at the beginning of our work session on February 5th recognizing time I do want to Chris had offered if you if we wanted to go over again but I want I think it's going to go out anyway with the what we've asked for is

239the original policies as written by the um School Board Association and then aligned with what we have decided as a board so great I I think that's everything on our agenda I did want to before Maggie you kind of talk anything else from the board that we need to discuss so then Maggie yeah if you would because there still are people listening there are people in the room if you want to talk in more detail about what happens tonight yes so tonight we are holding a community input meeting um to review and discuss some potentials for restructuring how or reorganizing how the middle school grades six to8 are organized in our school system so um we'll start with a welcome and an introduction of our facilitator um who is an expert in facilitation of discussions

240to elicit authentic input um so we're GNA after that introduction I'm going to share uh what are our objectives what are we hoping to accomplish at the meeting and it is really to have this opportunity for authentic stakeholder input um on some of the options that on the options that we currently have listed out that we're looking at at U considering um I've got some data that I'm going to share um with the audience just so that I want to make a the facilit facilitator and I want to make sure that the information we have has been received and processed um will be recording this presentation and sharing it out um at a later date um so I'll go through all the data I'm going to discuss and review the decision-making model which I shared

241with the board which is number one you know creating an equitable learning environment for every student in our school system um and that's kind of on one axis and then on the other axis is our financial stewardship responsibility and making the most with the resources that we have to impact that Equitable learning environment for every student um I'll review our current options that kind of we've just listed hey here are some obvious options to look at one being hey let's let's just keep things as they are what does that look you know and understanding that we'd have to decide what does that look like longterm um so that's option one option two is to take both schools put them in one building as two separate schools so that is an option to look at option

242number two is or three is to to look at our ECA um the the academy and is there space within a campus somewhere to put that program um and understanding what the repercussions of that would be um so we're not talking through all the repercussions we're just sharing some ideas um and then the last option to consider is to take both middle schools what are they doing really well at one of them what are they doing really well at the other one how do we take all of those great things and build an even better Middle School than the two that are separate um so those are the kind of current options I'll review those and then um the next part of the meeting is the facilitator is going to um have small and large

243group discussions so she's got a a discussion guide that the each participant will have they will be in small groups and she will facilitate them through those five questions that she has or that her and I worked on together um and they will talk together as a group they'll report out they'll also be capturing their discussion high points on posters um and then we'll close the meeting after that um with just thanks and appreciation for our stakeholders participating sharing with them that we have upcoming opportunities for public input um and public comment um dates to be set for those um and that all of this information we're um building a website right now kind of homed on our um current web page to collect all of this information together um so that the public can

244be informed we can send everyone to one space um this is not like open public comment tonight this is really Gathering their input and having them work together in small groups to really process what they've heard make sure we we've all got now a common understanding of the current data that we have um and then brainstorm what are some ideas we haven't thought of um I've already gotten several emails from parents that had some creative ideas that I was like H I never thought of that so it's an opportunity to solicit those so we know what should we be looking at before we just go into this saying hey here are the three things we're going to look at without soliciting that opportunity for input so that is the objective for tonight's meeting can you

245say again if people can't attend tonight but they registered they got materials like like we got yep and how how can they give feedback is it through the website will there is it there'll be a feedback form what what I'm going to do is create basically the same five questions that the community is going to process tonight they're going to be the five questions and they can provide feedback through that same form yep and that'll be distributed after tonight yes yeah it probably won't be tomorrow probably next week sometime because we've got to collect all the data that we capture tonight capture it type it out put it in a way that people can process but we want to be very transparent and just also make sure that this is all upfront before any decisions

246have been made um so that we can gather all the information that the board wants as you make this difficult decision on what do we do next I think it's important to to remind the public that this is of course were specific right now to monford Northstar and Asheville middle school that does not mean that participation tonight is can only be parents and families that are at Mont Northstar and nval middle I mean we this is a community this is a district and we want to hear your ideas as Maggie is uplifted we want to hear creative ideas and we know that those exist throughout our district so I I hope that many many families are there tonight that y you know maybe have already gone through the middle schools or in the next few

247years will come to our middle schools and this is phase one then we will look at our other grade Vans to decide if they're and examine those as well and just look at is there opportunity for improving how we offer programming at the high school level and at the elementary level and then one last thing just because it's going to be obvious once everyone appears board members are not going to be present tonight and this was uh part of the reason for this is if any of us were there we recognized that a lot of the focus would be on us and right now it should be on those schools and the ideas that are generated uh and so we look forward as a board to hearing what bubbles up from all of that and

248uh what's brought back to us both from presentations from the admin and central office but also once you know public comment continues to [Music] happen anything else from the board so I will go through as again everyone's favorite part of the every board meeting the future meetings and announcements again tonight that starts at what time is it that it starts tonight is it 6 six okay so six tonight and that has been moved to Isaac Dixon uh there will be shuttles operating uh for overflow parking you can park at mford Northstar and we'll have a bus shuttle um taking families down to Isaac Dixon but again that meeting has been moved to mon to Isaac Dixon starting at 6:00 we will have our special called session around the budget uh here in the boardroom on

249Thursday February 1st as we've discussed and then our next work Clos session will be February 5th Monday here in the boardroom and then our next regular meeting is Monday February 12th again here in the board meeting at boardroom and of course all of this stuff is always online for you to find and with that I'll ask for a motion to adjourn this so move second moved in second I didn't get to finish whatever what we're adjourning you know we're adjourning and all in favor I I any