001So we have our architects here to do a presentation on the potential referendum. So I'm going to turn it over to Greg and Dan. >> Good evening everyone. My name is Greg Samjen and we've been here now several times and this is the culmination of many many months of work that the board has been doing. Um we have presented on the infrastructure projects over the past several months. We've explored a variety of educational options that have been narrowed down to what we are now calling concept B1 and B2, which is what we will present this evening. And as agreed, we're just going to recap how we got here very quickly for anyone who is seeing this presentation for the first time or anyone at home and trying to catch up. Um the building itself um
002was originally built in the 1950s and has had additions over the course of decades. It is split up into three basic sections. The prek kindergarten wing, the elementary school section, and then the middle school grades on the far right. The referendum in 2024 covered a variety of infrastructure projects that ranged from asbestous abatement to the boiler and to some roofs and also took into consideration an art room renovation and at the time an addition to accommodate much needed storage. That referendum totaled just over $15 million. It was receiving debt service aid from the state about $4.7 million, leaving the local share to the local taxpayer at about $10.3 million. And ultimately, as we know, that referendum failed. After the failed referendum, the board was focused on a superintendent search. Ken Fertini was brought on board
003and had a chance to evaluate the needs both infrastructure and educationally firsthand. And then since coming on board, he has had discussions with the board of education, met with administrators, teachers, and student reps with us, and also had community connection meetings from August through today, and ultimately identified some needs that was presented to the board. Those needs fell into two basic buckets. The first one was infrastructure which we've talked about several times and we'll just touch on the total dollar amount but again they are very similar to what was contemplated in 2024 with some exceptions like the storage room has been eliminated and some of the other things uh that are more smaller in nature. And then the one we're going to focus on this evening is the educational bucket. Just as a point of
004information, the district does have a strategic plan with three goals and those goals vary, but many of those pieces align with the planning that has gone on for the educational portion and the infrastructure portion of this referendum that is being considered. So, the educational needs that were identified were to eliminate shared spaces. Many of the spaces in the building are currently being used by two or three teachers simultaneously. There are many spaces that were formally storage that over the decades became converted to actual educational use and so they are windowless and not ideal and also long-term enrollment increases that may ultimately occur. There are some specialized instructional spaces that similar to the storage rooms here were converted. So, the area across from the gym was formerly storage and is now a music space. The art
005room is uh old and has issues relating to not being properly sized for the youngest kids, not being properly sized for the older kids. So, falling somewhere in between. And then ultimately, there is a classroom space that was converted to science STEM, but it's really just a general classroom. So the considerations that uh that we used for going into the design was to address all of those things that were lacking education. The existing site uh is has some limitations environmentally. The aerial is not something that people are accustomed to seeing, but this is what the property looks like. There are wetlands on the property and there are what are called repairarium zones having to do with the stream and the water courses. The red dotted lines represent setbacks that need to be maintained from those
006areas. And so one of the things that we looked at very early on was how can we accommodate these needs because the existing school does not have the square footage to accommodate some of the things that are being explored based on the shared spaces. So the concept that falls into the B category which is the middle of the range category. We looked at something bigger, 10,000 square foot and maximizing what we could build and then a smaller version which was about 5,000 square foot which was the minimal amount of uh components that could be addressed and ultimately in the last several meetings the board felt like the middle of the road was a reasonable approach. So the first concept that was presented on this um in this middle section was a 7200 foot edition. It
007consists of classrooms being extended down towards the softball field on the seventh and eighth grade wing as well as one music space off of the upper gym. Uh those spaces are ideal because music is a louder acoustical issue. So putting it next to a gym is very appropriate. And obviously the classrooms and extending the seventh and eighth grade wing is also appropriate. And then you can see the shaded blue areas which are interior renovations. Ultimately, this project, this proposal addresses many, if not all of the educational program elements that were identified. Everyone has their own space. We are removing people from former storage spaces that are windowless and ultimately allowing uh the general classrooms to act as general classrooms rather than being used for other types of spaces. This proposal is approximately $10.1 million. We
008are not expecting any debt service aid on the additions, but we do believe we might be able to get some debt service aid for the interior renovations. So ultimately what the next steps are is after approval and after submission to the Department of Education, we will get what's called a preliminary eligible cost letter and that will tell us exactly what the state subsidy will be. And then after our last meeting, we were asked to develop a second concept within this mid-range. And so we're calling that concept B2. It increases the square footage to 9100 square feet by adding a second music space. So currently the music spaces are one for band and one for coral, but they're undersized. They're inappropriate from a learning perspective because there are former storage rooms. The ceilings are lower. The
009acoustics are not great. And so while we did add one music room in concept V1, the discussion about adding a second one to see what it did to the budget was contemplated and it is being shown here. So that now we have a properly sized coral room and a properly sized band room. The other proposals are similar if not the same to B1 in so much as we have general classrooms, small group instructional spaces that are being accommodated so that people are out of windowless spaces and appropriate educational spaces are being proposed. And this one comes in a little bit higher at 11.9. Um the debt service aid discussion is the same. We don't expect any for the addition, but we do expect some for the interior renovations and we will only know that once
010we get those preliminary eligible cost letters. So uh I believe this evening the board will have a discussion and decide on one of these two concepts and what that will ultimately do is there will be applications submitted to the state is option one is chosen meaning the infrastructure projects which are totaling just over $16 million with 5.7 in debt service aid uh if concept B1 is uh chosen then we will have a total referendum presented to community of $26.7 million. Um, how many questions that will be represented in has not yet been decided. And then option two, if selected, would be the same 16.6 million infrastructure and 11.9 for the educational, bringing the total presented to the community of 28.57. Just to recap some of the frequently asked questions. How does this impact my taxes?
011Once we get the preliminary eligible cost letter of the debt service aid from the state, the financial adviser will be able to more accurately calculate what uh the average home will be impacted and then that will be presented well before any voter goes into the voting booth. Why do these projects cost so much? Um the prevailing wage requirements in New Jersey and the other state mandates are what drive the cost of public sector work. We have gone through a benchmarking exercise with everyone to show that the current market conditions do reflect our budgets. Why do I have to vote? In order for a board of education to borrow money long term, the community has to vote on it. Uh borrowing money long term for something like this is very appropriate. Not only are you getting
012to finance something with a life expectancy of 20 or 30 years over that 20 25 years, but it also allows future uh residents that are moving into the community to participate in the paying off of that debt because they too are benefiting from the improvements. And then why don't we just keep using capital reserve to fund these things? And the answer is that capital reserve is limited. It's like a savings account. Only so much can be put away based on the annual expenditures. Debt service aid is not available if you use capital reserve and capital reserve is paid in one year rather than over the life expectancy of the materials which is 20 years. I tried to do it quickly because I know we've seen this many many times. So if I went too fast
013please pull me back to wherever you'd like to ask a question. Can I just add one thing to add on to that? So the previous presentation we record our meeting so somebody from the public can refer back to that to see the last one. They'll be able to see this one will be posted tomorrow and also the presentations are going to be on the website under the referendum page. So, anybody who has missed the meeting, wants to come up to speed, they can look at both of those areas and try to come up to speed. >> And just a note on the presentations, we do have the referendum tab that has the previous presentation already posted on there. Uh, and once we get this presentation, it will be posted on the referendum tab as well.
014>> Now's the time for discussion. Yeah, >> I guess to clarify for folks the steps that we're going through now like the next steps would be for the board to decide on what it thinks is best for the district based on all the inputs we've got for the infrastructure and one of the educational concepts B1 or B2. But the next step would be first to submit an application, get the board to decide to submit an application to the state of New Jersey with those concepts, get it back with the numbers that they will absolutely provide and then at that point the board would decide are we going to referendum like when that comes back later. >> That is correct. >> Just one question between the concept one concept the the fan even the coral um
015how much is that taking over the current playground? So you can see over so you can see on Oops. You can see on the aerial you can see on the aerial it's taking over what are we calling it the physical >> The project fit area which based on the conversations we've had seems to be more of a hangout area than a project fit area. So I think there is there are discussions about how we can accommodate a place for the kids to socialize and congregate whether that's maybe at the end where the baseball or the softball field is or but but it takes up most of that project fit area when you have the two classrooms because each classroom uh has a footprint of about 1,200 ft. So that's 2400 feet plus the storage in
016between and plus an extension of the hallway a little bit to get us access. >> Thank you. Uh, just want to point out that where it says music right there, that's currently where three containers are storage. So >> that's not taking >> Yeah. It won't be taking away any space from the kids or anything. >> Yeah. And those those containers have things stored inside of them, but again, the beauty of this is that we gain back those closets. I know that John mentioned maybe making one of them a conference room just so you have a little bit of flexibility, but it also takes the old music space, which was storage, and could recover that back to storage. So there are options. The storage need, just to be clear, did not go away. This is a
017different approach to accommodating educational needs while also addressing some of the storage needs. >> So the difference between B1 and B2 is it is the only difference the addition of the coral room. >> Okay. So then followup question. Um noticing that there's a difference of 1.8 million between the two proposals. What goes into the construction of the coral room that makes it 1.8 million? >> So the 1,200 square ft >> times the cost per construction and then proportionally everything else goes up. The contingency because it's a contingency on the hard cost goes up. The market escalation goes up. So the beauty is that the and remember there's also a hallway extension which has a little bit of square footage to get to that end as well. But basically, most of that is the hard costs
018and then a lot of the contingencies that relate to it because those are tied in as percentages. And the goal here is if we submit to the state, we get 34 cents on the dollar for whatever we submit on the interior renovations. For the exterior, we're not going to get money. But if we have the money there and something changes in the market, which is always changing, we can still execute on the project. If we don't need that money contingency specifically, then we don't use it and it can go back to the community members. So our numbers are based on what we're seeing in the market and based on benchmarking and the the primary driver is the hard costs and then the associated soft costs that go into permit fees because educational projects have educational
019reviews that you have to pay for. So most of it is just the hard cost of the construction and then the related contingencies that are associated with it. >> Mr. Patini question. Um if we don't do the coral room music the music room double as a coral room. Maybe that's a question for you as well. >> That's why this was I don't want to I'll let Ken answer the question for sure. >> The the music room and the band let's call it instrument musical instrument hall is being utilized all day long by both Yeah. I told instructors. So there's never an opportunity for one to use the other's room. >> Yeah. >> That's why we were considering it. >> Just to put things in perspective, if you look in the middle of the building, you're
020familiar with where the existing music room is. So arguably, either this is the coral or instrumental >> and then this one is acting as the music space. So you can see it's it's woefully underdesigned and with the sound of instruments in there, I can only imagine what it sounds like. So the goal was to accommodate both those spaces and then be able to recover them because otherwise one of them might have to stay in there from a Yeah. So I guess that's my followup question. The scheduling perspective that I would assume that B the chorus will stay in the old storage room but it's now the music room that will happen. >> Correct. >> And there's no other place that's feasible in the renovations where the chorus room could move to. Correct. Not that we
021saw. Most of the spaces are general classrooms that are 800 square feet or less. The the current music room is probably the biggest footprint, but all of them have ceiling heights that were designed for a general classroom, which is typically 9 ft plus or minus. That's the today's code. you're going to see in the coral and music spaces, you're going to see a 12 or a 15 foot ceiling height um with acoustical panels and things like that because that helps for the space to be more educationally centered. >> What What if you did an interior renovation of this storage to make it into a >> So, that's a possibility. Um I believe it's a roof that we just replaced. So, you know, we are actually working on a music room where you can raise the
022ceiling um to accommodate that, but that requires a lot of structural work. So, the realities are it'll be so disruptive. I'm I'm Will it be a little less expensive? Probably, but in the grand scheme of things, if you're already building on the end there, in my professional opinion, you know, you're going to build two boxes instead of one and and get a much more suitable space. >> Yeah. Plus, you're picking up a space for storage, which is also much needed. John has shared many stories about, you know, these storage containers, they're not weathertight. There are a whole host of issues there. So, bringing those stuff inside, >> you're getting two of these. You're getting a core room. You're getting storage. >> Well, that was my question, too. My understanding was the music room now is
023the old gym. >> It's the old storage off the hall. And if you remember from the presentation last meeting, when they put the risers in there, the taller students are up at the ceiling. So, it's not not really conducive to coral music. >> You can't No, you can't really use it. But my my point is if if you did the other option with both music and coral, you now get the gym storage because I think we're using part of a bathroom somewhere >> like the boys bathroom is being used as storage. >> Every spot possible we're using >> the locker room. >> And so I guess the following question is that one is the cost question that we can debate. I'm more uh for now concerned about maybe the programmatic uh needs of the school
024out the first more I assume this addresses the original list of what we were doing more than the other one more right >> you mean B2 versus B1 >> yes that B2 is a better educational uh result for the kids precisely yeah Does anybody else have a question? >> Can you explain to me? >> So what's the current utilization of the music? So it sounds like the entire day there's either instrumental music or music, >> three spaces. >> They're in the gym as well. They shuffle. >> They move. They move music around just to make it happen between gym classes. >> I guess if we go with option B2, is it correct that throughout the entire day both time? >> Yes. Did you say being utilized all day long? >> Yeah. So in other words,
025if we do V2, both those bands be utilized at the same time. Yes. Now, mind you, teachers have preps and lunches and things like that. You know, that there may be a period or two where they're not being utilized. Um, >> but there's not large gaps like >> classrooms too. This happens in a classroom when there's a prep >> or a large period. >> I think what Ben's asking, I think a similar question I was asking like can they swap? Can you shuffle? >> But it sounds like >> you need both spaces. >> At best, >> one would be able to use the classroom one period. >> That's it. Yeah. And then you'd still have to shuffle and find that that was >> music also happens to be a zero period. So it's used before
026school, too. >> When when they have to do whole band practices, they go into the small gym or the large gym. So you you're actually shortening the the amount of time that the kids are actually practicing because they're hauling all the equipment from one room over to the gym and then back. They do the setup and the breakdown themselves. >> We we made it work. There's a lot of juggling, but especially when like the the play is going on, >> there are times where they can't even get in. They're moving things around. And here you would typical instrumental music room is set up. You're not dragging the kettle drums out. You're not bringing them back. education. >> I believe I just want to say I believe Mrs. Cohort presented about that last >> in her
027presentation how it's not a true >> instruction. >> My my thought was I was originally leaning towards B1. I'm trying to be costconcious but I realized the the headache not even headache that disruption creates right not having that dedicated space. I feel very strongly about music, the arts. We need to have dedicated. It's not all just about math and alth those are incredibly important and I I think having those dedicated spaces is needed for the the children. The cost relative to the overall cost is not that much more. And I think we've done a really good job on the infrastructure side of squeezing, pushing, making sure we've got that as small as possible to devote as much to the children and students as possible, which I think is what we want. So, I mean I
028this is just me. I'm just throwing my I'm, you know, leaning towards B2. >> Yeah. Well, maybe you I'm going to build on B2. Like, look, I think the relative cost of 18 bonded over 20 years. >> Like, we talk about talking about $90,000 a year or 20 over 20 years. I the last thing I want to happen is 5 years from now we we or whoever the board is sitting here saying geez I really wish we bonded an extra 90,000 a year for 20 years so that we could have separate banning coral it just seems >> it seems pennywise not foolish to not right if if you were telling me it was $5 million to do it I'd say okay let's let's talk about that but to bond it over 20 years and have
029people share that expense for what's going to be a better student experience I think issues to it >> sounds like is there consensus for two I I don't know that that just out my my >> I am too. I was thinking like the need for the children's education. We have such a good music program here. The strength of our district. I think I you know want to make just a strong pitch to us the board the community that we see cost rising all over the place very rapidly and I think it's important that's what also has drawn me to B2 is to get what we need now it's only going to get much more expensive it's going to be I think it's going to grow exponentially especially over the next two to three years um
030I really do think we need to go with what we strong because I I will say for the public too who's listening whatever the fact that we are sitting and I have to compliment because there's a lot of work that went into this into committees and the public the fact that we're sitting here three years later with inflation being 20 or 30% higher the fact that the infrastructure projects are nearly the same because we have to drop >> line item by line item to try to keep that almost the same >> is almost I have the full board that's like remarkable that we're going to be able to try to get the infrastructure with three years of inflation uh almost the same. So just so the public knows too that this board has really taken
031like the financial part very seriously and considerations to to the line items to get here. But you're also going to see in my budget presentation later on the board is the board has always been conscious and they are conscious in this budget of looking at the cost. So you know it's played out in this scenario but also has been on the budget year after year. >> Can I make just one more point? >> So, I know that there's talk about investing in the arts and what we believe and things of that nature and these are great wants, but there's really a need because as far as space is concerned, we have chorus here and music instrumental uh instruction going on in this small space. The music instructional the music instrumental instruction has to go in
032here. And we have students that are on the stage here. And during their practice, we had kids fall off the stage. It's not an appropriate space for them to be practicing. And since this storage area was taken over, and again, I've been here for a year and a half. These are things I'm seeing every every day for the past year. This hallway here has chairs and tables and risers and things like that. So, it's from a safety perspective, like this needs to be done. If we have six classrooms here and the middle school typically is sixth, seventh, and eighth grade. We have on average three sections per grade. That's nine classes. There's only six classes here. That's not truly your middle school. So, you have kids going back and forth over here. Smaller hallways. This
033hallway is actually a little bit wider because of bigger kids and it's newer construction. So, we have a lot of traffic going over here. We have eighth graders going all the way down here for STEM class or computers. So, there's a lot of traffic and from a safety perspective, again, that traffic causes problems. So having this design is better overall not only for the school from a programmatic standpoint but from a safety standpoint. >> I would even say I'm sorry to interrupt you like just having volunteered here so much from a socioeotional standpoint too because there's a social piece of kids all in one school that are older being together. The intermixing they start around seventh and eighth grade complaining about being with the younger kids. They want that autonomy making that transition to high
034school. And that that transition from elementary to middle, you see it in in the interactions as well. >> Agreed. And I also like again point out this area right here, the squirrel area right here. This is already taken over by containers for storage. So why build storage space over there to just put that stuff in there? Why not make instructional space? Capture some of that closet space and storage space. Take that and put it back in. Just makes sense. Thank you. >> Any other questions? >> Do you want >> I'm in total agreement. I >> show Ben and Paul. >> I was initially I was leaning towards B1 just from cost effective perspective, but listening to everyone and hearing Mr. speak about the safe about safety. Um, I'm in line with what you were talking
035about, Chris. Um, I I'm I'm on board with moving forward with me, too. If you heard me from the infrastructure, I'm the last person spend the taxpayers dollar. Um, but I think that this is the right use of it. >> I hear you. I mean I I to see you know down I really I do think you should hear from this before we take any official action. >> Anyone from the public have any questions or feedback? >> Um, I'll just say uh kind of blows my mind that I moved here in the year 2000 when the last piece of money was spent here. Since then, I'm raised two boys. They've gone on to college or in grad school. It's a quarter of a century. That's a long time not to invest. I mean, I'm 100%
036behind this and um I but I am thinking of the questions you guys are going to get from people that might not be like, "Well, how come we didn't think about the uh the education piece last time? It was all focused on infrastructure." People are going to say, "Oh, it's twice as much as it was." Well, it's not really. It's kind of what it was plus this other need that we really need. So, but again, I'm on board. But some of your your numbers, Greg, the um I think the last time we were here, you flashed a number that said for the uh the infrastructure was whatever 156 million, but because we're getting a 34%, we were only financing 11 million, which for the average house, this is top ahead memory. So the average $600,000
037house might be a $500 increase roughly. So, so when you present this, you're going to be presenting if it's both the taxpayer saying you're going to get a $1,000 increase. >> Yeah. So, the information >> I'm not complaining. I'm just saying I'm thinking of a salesman. I'm trying to help you sell. >> I think the the we received some very high level information from the financial adviser last time that we wanted to at least share preliminarily. And I think it was phrased something along the lines of for every $5 million of borrowed money would be X dollars on the average home. The decision was made, let's wait for the real numbers from the state because that will reduce the burden on the local taxpayer. The local taxpayer will know that information before they go into
038the booth. It'll just be a couple of months after we submit the application. Right now, if everything goes based on the schedule we've discussed, the board should be providing us some direction on this these concepts this evening. We've already gotten the go-ahhead on the infrastructure application. So those are already started. So we'll be targeting May one as the application submission which means in a couple of months after that two or three months we'll get the actual numbers from the state. The financial advisor can run their numbers and then we'll have real numbers to share with everyone. We don't want someone to look at a number and then >> be artificially inflated or artificially low. So that's the plan. But but you're right, those were talked about at a very high level early on. >> It's
039a big number. >> Y >> but if we had done something, you know, if if every 10 years we did something that it would be a smaller number every 10 years, but you wait a quarter and you got to pay for it just like if you don't replace your roof on your own house. >> Awesome. >> Um something else, and this is just not that you're going to do this or you could do this, but after the last meeting and I I laughed and you were talking about the lack of space. Uh this was also before the sending receiving um um analysis came out. So I left that meeting saying well wouldn't an idea be to they kind of overbuilt the mountain lakes from what I hear. Could we send our eighth seventh and eighth
040graders there and you know make that part of the sending or receiving relationship and then that frees up the space here. That's a big idea that you can't decide right now but and it's probably too late for that. But that was that was one thing I walked away from. And then I guess with the sending rel receiving relationship analysis that probably would don't want anyhow. But I I'm I'm with it. I I might only be living here in another 5 or 10 years, but uh I want this to be a great community for Jenny. So and I'm happy to help with my sales ability in a non nonpartisan way, but I don't know if that's possible because everyone knows I am. As someone who is planning to live here for the next few decades, I
041would say I I was in the B1 camp at first as well until you guys asked all the same questions I was thinking. The answers convinced me that B2 makes sense. Um, so I I get it. I think it's worth it. >> Nicole Coart deserves it. >> She's awesome. >> Yeah. >> Uh, I have several questions. I don't know if they're appropriate for this meeting. Uh, this is the first time I've ever come to a a planning a board of education meeting. Um if if you would allow me to just ask them and you want to come back at a different time if you think they're appropriate, but um has the architecture firm ever uh developed projects for other schools? >> Oh, certainly. Yes. So, we've been doing this for 38 years, and this kind
042of project is something we've been doing for decades. Okay. Um, and did the school district, I'm assuming, do an analysis of future class size for the students for the next five to 10 years? >> So, typically a demographic study is only valid for five years because that's the life expectancy of it. And I know that there are demographic studies and they're actually considering another demographic study. But I think, and I don't want to misspeak so can't correct me if I'm wrong. I think this is in response to the current circumstances and while we're trying to accommodate some growth, this is not a function of because we have a huge population coming, we already have spaces that are shared. The room behind us is shared by three teachers. Closets have been converted. So Ken may want
043to elaborate on that. >> I can jump in. So our our last demographic study, Craig is right that they last about five years. We did one in 2022. The board approved a firm to do an update. So they're in the process now. There'll be a lot of feedback going back and forth that'll go out another five years, but the current one is showing that there's growth too within the next few years. So, we're we're going to get an updated one, but um you know, this project will accommodate some growth that we're expecting because it it did dip and now it's starting to come back up again. >> That presentation's available. I forget which board meeting but it was in 22 but >> yeah there is the pres that has the the the report from the
044>> if you go to the board of education page the demographic study he'll show you the trends but again it's older data it's a couple years old. >> So then just as a followup of that question do you um somehow leaison on with the the township committee as far as developmental plans in Bin Township? I mean, are you taking into consideration perhaps more development in the township? Is that how that study is done or or not? >> Uh the the we do work with the with the township, but the study does look at it looks at birth rates. It looks at housing starts. It looks at future building projects. And they've already reported out that there isn't a lot of building unless somebody gives up farmland. It's not preserved. There hasn't been there haven't been
045plans. You know, you see the one that's stalled up by kids. That's the only one that has been in the works and we still don't know when that's going to when that's going to commence again. But again, yes, to answer your question, we do look at the town. We do include that in the demographic study. >> If you don't mind me asking, are you asking if we do get a a influx of students, will this need to be expanded even more? Is that correct? Is this going to accommodate? >> That that's not what that was not. But that that's a good, you know, something to think about also is if there was if there was any Yes. How how would it >> like if there was a hundred students that somehow appeared like uh >>
046from a townhouse? >> You don't know those are the crystal. >> Yeah. I'm just wondering how the affordable housing uh component in township is taking how that's if if they've settled with the state yet and if that would bring in more children because they have to build x amount of affordable housing units. And I don't I don't know that part of it. So that's why I'm asking >> this if we hypothetically received a 100 new students right now they won't all be in second grade for example they'll be distributed right in somewhat even fashion across all the grade levels. So we have uh prek we'll just use kindergarten all the way up to eighth grade that's nine grade levels three on average three per um three sections per grade level. So that's 29 classrooms. So
047if we take 100, we divide that by the 20 by 27, we can easily accept 100 students. So there's no concern as far as the population is concerned. >> But I might want to add on. So that that older demographic study took into consideration two scenarios. One was with that building and one was without. So there was still a growth in enrollment if they didn't do the building and there's one if it, you know, when it opens up. It's all speculation, but we have a liaison to the township committee that's on the board member and I think they just appointed one that's a liaison to our board. So there is communication between both both bodies. >> Okay. And then did I get did I hear this right for plan? So the difference between B1 and
048B2 financially is 1.8 million. Correct. >> And did I hear that the corral room was 1,200 feet. >> Yes. >> So, is it correct that if I divided 1,200 into 1.8 million that the cost for that building would be 15 $1,500 per square foot to build? >> So, your math is correct. However, the way that the project is budgeted, the 1,200 square foot is for the net square foot. So, there's the increase in gross square footage for the exterior walls and there's a slight hallway increase as well to get that other space. So, the square foot is a little bit bigger. Public sector work is currently at $600 to $700 per square foot for hard costs. I was yeah just gonna that was I was I just uh opened up my phone very quickly while
049everyone was talking and asked AI and uh in high-cost areas they said it can be over 700 >> square feet dollar square foot. >> Yeah. Per square foot. Thank you. But this is almost double that. So >> but what >> it is double that actually. >> Yeah. So, so what AI is not telling you is that the $700 a square foot is hard cost. Now, the actual cost of construction and what I had mentioned when everyone asked was there are other line items that are part of that. We carry a contingency because there are going to be unforeseen conditions that we have to cover and if we don't use them, it goes back. We have a market escalation because this vote doesn't go to the voters till the end of the year. Then we have
050six to nine months of drawings. So, we're not going to be out to bid for another year, year and a half. So, we have to anticipate what is construction going to go up in another year or two. And then there are permit fees and there's a whole list of other things that tie into that which brings it to the total. We don't know that we're going to need all of those contingencies, but the state department of education requires we carry them and as a best practice, it's important to carry them. And then there's also a little bit more of site work. So the AI answer that you received is an accurate one, but that only speaks to what we call hard costs and the other pieces that bring it up that total amount is all
051these contingencies and other costs that are not directly related to the hard cost. >> Okay. Um my I have about three more questions. What is um what does anyone know at present what the rate interest rate is for bonding? >> Um I want to say for these kinds of projects it's in the 4% range for this type of work. It's still somewhat competitive. It's not like the residential market that is in six six and a half seven range. Um but we can certainly get that and certainly the financial adviser will will get that. And just so you understand, post referendum, just like the bids that are open through sealed envelopes, the board will go out for competitive numbers from banks and financial institutions and they will open sealed envelopes to get the best rate. >>
052Interesting. Um, and I think it was discussed uh while I was here tonight that is this because my question is this is really the right time to bond considering the atmosphere that we are in right now uh both economically and politically on the federal level. I do understand you said years down the line you you assume that the prices will go up and uh everything always does go up. They say the stock market always goes up although it's going down. But I am concerned um of the exact timing of this and I hate to say it under the current administration that we have in the federal government. I'm hoping that maybe in 2028 things may be a little bit different but right now with the war in Iraq in Iran etc. I know this is
053above your guys pay grade but I am concerned about bonding about around this time. Um my one of my second to last question is I wasn't here ever to hear the discussions. Was there consideration of building a second story onto this building um if it was possible and would that have been more cost effective? >> The answer is it was briefly discussed. It is not more cost-effective because a you can't build over students while they're in the building and to do any kind of second floor addition. You'd have to potentially reinforce the structure. We don't know if the foundation can support a second floor. And when you add a second floor, you immediately add plus or minus a million dollars worth of construction for an elevator and two means of egress. So, if you said
054we were going to build a second floor over the whole building and shut it down for a year, move the students elsewhere, that could be an economical uh consideration because then the elevator and the staircases for a large square footage increase would make sense. But if we were just going to build 5 to 10,000 square foot over one of the wings and have to accommodate the code requirements, it does make economical sense and it's not really um easy to do while the building is occupied and we're already at the building limits. So what you do with the students >> understand and this last question I don't want you to take it the wrong way. It's just >> that's not a good setup to the question. >> It's a payforplay question which is has your company
055ever given donations to any political entity? >> No. >> Okay. Thank you. >> We are anti-politics. >> But to answer one of your questions about is this the right time? I would say yes and no. at the right time was probably five years ago, right? And we're here now. >> Anecdotally, you know, I do work around my house. I would work in a sheet of plywood before CO was maybe depending on what kind of value I get up like 50 bucks. It's now almost 80. It has not gone down. Things are going up. I waiting I think is a worse idea than going down. That's my personal. >> Yeah. And I mean everyone and they're all the same. >> You don't have the crystal ball. >> No. Right. But I mean everyone has concerns about
056waiting also has real costs to students and our ability to kind of education. So to wait for the right time, I mean 10 years for the right conditions and you know you just you can't sort of continue to wait for the gold. you really have to to think what's right for us now. I think how I try to >> they're two different they're two different thoughts. They're both extremely important. They're in all I think that's how I >> thank you. >> I appreciate the questions though because I think noted I think you're asking them because they're good questions and I think that the public will so I think as a at least for me as a board I think as part of the actu your questions are super valid. We need to be more forthright
057at a lot of the those questions. I'm sure people have these exact same questions. >> Thank you. >> And and Terry, knowing how you think, I'd encourage you to go to the whenever the the meeting was when Craig first presented. He got a lot of detail about where they came up with the numbers. >> He's he's Greg. Greg AI is better than your phone AI. I'm stealing that. Not giving you ros just >> I I do it all the time. I'm the generous guy. Bad phone. Bad phone. Okay. >> Just having spent most of my career in band rooms and chorus rooms and concert halls and opera houses. You're making the absolutely right decision by building both rooms to a ceiling height that's acceptable to play music in and sing music in. And also not
058having to shle that stuff in and out and in and out every day on the wear and tear on the instruments, on the time that's wasted doing it, etc., etc. You got my You got totally got my phone for the double room version. >> I didn't know you caught the dead. >> We had pinched fingers along the way, too. >> Oh, yeah. And I'm sure kids follow instruments and break French horns and all sorts of stuff like that. So, >> thank you all for your feedback. >> Any other questions? >> Thank you, Greg. Thanks. >> Thank you.