Boonton Township Board of Education Special Meeting 02/11/2026

001Let's call this meeting to order. 7:30 p.m. >> This is a special meeting of the Bhutin Township Board of Education held for the discussion of Rockway Valley Schools facilities and educational needs, including consideration of a potential referendum in compliance with chapter 231 laws of 1975. The notice of this meeting was advertised in the Mars County Daily Record and copies of the agenda of this agenda meeting sorry were appropriately posted and made available to the public. >> Mr. Speak >> here. >> Mr. Brander >> here. Mrs. Cabana >> here. >> Mr. Chen >> here. >> Mr. Hittinger >> here. >> Mr. Johnson here. >> Mrs. McBride >> here. >> Mr. Mills >> here. >> Mr. Rosenberg >> here. >> Also present Mr. Cheney superintendent principal. We have a quorum. >> Please [clears throat] stand for the

002pledge of allegiance. To the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for it stands one nation under God indivisible with liberty and justice for all. [clears throat] >> So tonight we will start with some opening remarks from uh superintendent principal Mr. Potential referendum. >> Thank you. Uh good evening everyone parents and community members. Thank you for attending tonight's session. For the past year and a half, I've noted several areas of need that will be highlighted in tonight's presentation. These needs have been articulated to the board. And last year, during my superintendent's roundt meetings with the community, the previous referendum had been a frequent topic. So much so, I created specific meetings called community connections dedicated to this. At least 20 meetings were held over the past five months. I continued to

003make observation, gather input from the community, teachers, and students. It was clear the building and education program needed attention as I continued to convey these needs to the board. The architect was hired to determine if and how these needs could be satisfied. This evening, we will hear from the architect. Please keep in mind that the board has not met with the architect as a whole. Only in a public meeting can the board meet as a whole. So the results of the test, inquiries and information gathering will be presented to the whole board tonight for the first time. The intent of this meeting is to include the community in the discussion of the findings from the architect. The needs of the school in terms of infrastructure and educational program needs and the board's intent to include

004the public in the early stages and every step of this process are in line with the district's strategic plan goals. one to strengthen and improve the relationship of RVS with its family and with its families and community so the expertise of each one can be utilized to the fullest potential. Number two, to create an academic environment where all students can succeed and number three, foster a safe and welcoming inclusive school that promotes student curiosity and leadership while reflecting values of the community in an increasingly diverse world. Once again, thank you for coming and I'd like to introduce Greg Sanjin and Dan Vans. Thank you. [clears throat] >> Good evening everybody. My name is Greg Sanjin. I'm here with Peret Sanjin Architects. With me is Dan Veno, one of our associates. And uh as was introduced,

005we've been working now for several months gathering information, revisiting some of the things from the last referendum and we are here to present that to you this evening. So by way of background, the [clears throat] existing building has been made up of multiple additions. The oldest is original 1959 and the quote unquote newest is already 26 years old. The grade alignment within the building is generally prek on one end through the middle uh building of elementary school grades and then the far side the middle school. One of the questions that came up during the various meetings was can we recap what happened in 2024 and compare it to what is being considered today. So in 2024, the failed referendum included primarily infrastructure projects. These are projects that we define as keeping the building operational and

006occupiable. It's not a matter of if these things will eventually fail. It's a matter of when because these systems do have ultimate life expecties. They included asbestous abatement, boiler replacement, electrical upgrades, HVAC upgrades, lighting, the nurse's office, roof replacement, some canopies, security vestibial renovations. On the educational side, there were discussions about renovating the art room, and then there was an addition proposed out the back for storage, which is currently contained in containment. The 2024 referendum total approximately $15 million. The debt service aid, which I'll touch on in a little bit, was the subsidy from the state totaling over $4 million, leaving the local anticipated share of about $10.3 million. The 14 million of the 15 was eligible. And so there was only approximately a million that was not eligible. So this really maximized the aid

007that the district was going to benefit from. Post the 2024 referendum, the district went out for a superintendent search because the prior superintendent had moved on. Um once Ken was brought on board, he evaluated the various needs within the school. He facilitated conversations with the board. He facilitated conversations with the administration, teachers, and students. and he also facilitated meeting with the community since August or even before through those community outreach meetings and he ultimately identified needs. We put those needs into two considerations, two buckets, if you will. The first is to revisit the infrastructure projects which have not gone away. The boilers, the roofs, the HAC equipment has only gotten older and eventually is going to have to be replaced. The question is how will that be funded? And then as part of these considerations

008and a separate conversation was okay, what we heard from the community last time was that there's no need for us to build a storage room. Let's address some of the educational needs and we'll go over that this evening as well. As was articulated earlier, there is a strategic plan in place with three goals and the exploration that has been going on does align with those goals. Specifically, enhancing the facilities within the building to improve the education that is being delivered. >> It's a [clears throat] little one. So consideration number one, bucket number one are the infrastructure projects. By comparison, you can see that many of the projects are still being considered because there is still a need. So the boilers, the HVAC, lighting, all of those things that are on the right hand side. What

009was eliminated of from consideration this time are the canopies and the security functions. And there were a few additional things that were identified now that we're a few years down the road and that were put on the list for consideration. Those included burglar, fire, and one small set of windows in the lower gym that should be replaced. The educational side, the art room, which are not really infrastructure, but the art room was part of the original plan. Um, that is still a consideration today. And then we'll talk a little about under the separate bucket the educational and professional spaces that Ken and um and the teachers identified as in need of attention. So just to put some imagery if you have not had the benefit of walking around the school or getting up on the

010roof. This is an example of the condition of the roof and to the right buckets in the gym. As a point of information, when the referendum failed, the need to repair roofs did not go away. And so, the district had to use their savings, also known as capital reserve, to pay for those. So, the point that I just wanted to make as part of this component is that we did replace over the course of a few years 53,000 square ft of roof. There's a little bit more to go at a cost of approximately $2.4 million. and the district missed out on approximately $816,000 in state aid and they also missed out on the opportunity to finance that over 20 years like you would a large capital project. What does that mean? It means that all

011the community members that lived in this town in that year footed that bill in one year rather than financing it over 20 and having new families that come in share that expense. The HVAC systems are the other ones that are kind of a big ticket item as part of this list. So, we just wanted to show some graphics for that as well. The rooftop equipment, the boilers, and the unit ventilators are all part of the heating and ventilation system. You can see from the pictures, they are somewhat old and dated. Um, they vary in range from 25 to 30 years. And the life expectancy for this type of equipment is between 20 and 30 years. So I just want to reiterate what I shared earlier which is it is not a matter of if this

012equipment will need replacement. It's a function of when will it need replacement. And the beauty of the um the the referendum is that you have the benefit of getting state subsidy and financing these projects over 20 years making it much more palatable. The question was asked, what happens if even before the board decides to present this referendum, one of these things fails? Well, the realities are that it becomes an emergent issue and if there's not enough capital reserve inside of the uh funding or the budget, then the district's going to have to go to the state and ask for permission. I did get clarification that there is no ability for the board to arbitrarily uh assign a tax levy on you to cover an emergency. But if you can't get the boiler replaced, you can't

013provide heat and the school will have to shut down and then obviously the kids will have to be relocated to another facility, work remotely or some combination of those things. So again, everything does have a useful life. Those things do come and go and so the board's been proactively trying to address some of these things which is why the first referendum was presented and why it's being considered now. Just a little background on how debt service aid and budgeting works. Net service aid is a financial subsidy from the state. It is in statute. In order to be eligible, you have to have debt, which means you have to borrow money. the debt is available for eligible projects and that's a state definition. I can answer questions about it later, but the infrastructure projects that we're

014talking about, we believe based on our experience that all of those projects are eligible. So that's good news and we'll share the financials with you in a moment. Um, debt service aid is funded at 34%. So for every dollar you spend, you'll get 34 cents on the dollar in subsidy and it's only available as I mentioned through borrowing. I just wanted to reiterate that the roof that was paid through capital debt service aid is not available using capital reserve and capital reserve is limited because it's a matter of putting away money on an annual basis when you have extra and obviously with everinccreasing cost of health insurance and other stuff the ability to put more and more away is becoming more difficult. So again there was an opportunity for $816,000 that was missed out on

015as was the opportunity to fund a project for a 20 plus year window. When we talk about construction costs, we understand that at the end of the day, um, the public sector looks disproportionate to what we as homeowners compare when we're talking about projects. And I'll answer that question at the end through some frequently asked questions. But the construction budgeting that we do includes hard costs, which are typically the actual cost of construction. So those are when the contractors bid the work. And then it includes costs, contingencies, and market escalations. These are all best practices and they are Department of Education requirements because we know working in a old building, you will open up a window, open up a wall, open up a ceiling, and you will encounter things that you didn't expect. The beauty

016is that when the state identifies the subsidy, they are relying on our budgets as a professional team and they're giving you 34 cents on the dollar of whatever budget we identify, including contingencies, including the whole package. So, there is value there to the district because you are benefiting from all of those dollar amounts. Let's talk about the infrastructure or this bucket one as I've referred to it about the financials. So, um, one of the things we put together to try to respond to some of the questions that came up in the last referendum was how do we get to our numbers? So, these are benchmarking based on projects that we've been working on for the last several years. And these are actual bids received from contractors. And the first or the second column is the

017average bid, which means that the low bidder was below it and was awarded the project. And there was a high bidder as well. Sometimes we only get two or three biders. Sometimes we'll get 14 or 20 biders. And you'll be shocked that people looking at the same set of drawings can come up with such a diverse bid amount. And to this day, I don't know that I can explain why. Obviously overhead and their desires and their costs to to perform the work, but essentially that's what it is. So in this case, the average cost of roof replacements is approximately 58 or $59. And for the remaining roofs that we have to do, we're budgeting about $62. So you can see that we are very much in line taking into consideration that we're still at least

018a year or two away depending on when this question is presented to the community. But just to give people a sense that we're not picking numbers out of the air. We're relying on historical data. We're monitoring what's happening in the marketplace. Costs are only going up. You'll see when I get to the list of the infrastructure projects, the money, the cost of things have gone up. Even though we added some scope to the project, there was inflation that impacted today's cost versus several years ago. Rooftop units are another example that we're showing the benchmarking for. Again, these are a variety of project types, but gives you a sense of the rooftop units. Here we have an average cost of about $182,000 per unit. We're budgeting somewhere in the range of $170,000 per unit. Um, again,

019there are variations. Some of the equipment in those averages are a little bit bigger than the ones you need. The point that I'm trying to make is that we are not just grabbing numbers out of the air. And while we recognize and agree that these numbers cannot be looked at in comparison to what you do in your home because you have prevailing wage, you have New Jersey requirements that have to be met. the cost of public sector construction is just more expensive. That is the fact. And then the last one we want to share was unit ventilators which are part of this project. Again, a few examples for benchmarking purposes. The average is about $130,000 per unit. That includes heating, ventilation, and the addition of air conditioning. We're budgeting at approximately $115,000 per unit. So,

020the infrastructure projects that are proposed or being considered um as part of this referendum total about $18.7 million. We expect that the uh debt service aid will total just over $6 million, leaving a local share of $12 million. This is what they look like as it relates to individual line items. Um I'm not going to get into the specifics. I'm certainly happy to answer questions, but you can see that on the unit ventilators, we're talking about $6.6 million because we are talking about replacing 41 unit ventilators. Um, and I also remind you that these totals are not just the hard costs. And that's why I let in with how we develop budgets. They are carrying contingencies. Sometimes we're carrying 10% contingencies that if we do not use, it goes back to you as a community.

021But if we don't have it and we encounter an issue, it's not a best practice. Not to mention that the state gives us the 34 cents on the dollar even for the contingencies and market escalation. So it's always better to go in a little bit conservatively than to not and to be able to make sure that the projects get executed. [snorts] And again, the math is what I shared on the progress line. Um so what is the financial tax impact on the infrastructure projects? This was something that was asked. These are very rough numbers and they still has to be you know vetted more formally with the um the financial adviser but from what we were given for every 5 million of eligible projects. The it's $12.33 per month on the average home or $148

022per year. So depending on what the board directs us to send to the department of education and to ultimately present to the community, this is an order of magnitude. I believe the financial advisor said this was a 4% rate at 20 years, a 20-year bond. Okay. So before I go on to the educational bucket, I wanted to address and bring closure to the infrastructure topic. Are there any questions that I can answer having to do with then and now on the infrastructure side? And I don't know if it's okay if we open up the public right away or so. I'll offer to the board first. See if anybody want that and then I'll see if anybody from the community has any questions. Yes, sir. >> To clarify the heating units be would be replaced with

023heating and air conditioning. >> That is correct. They are currently heating and ventilation only. They go hand in hand with the boilers. Two pipes leave the boiler. one a supply, one a return. They run around the entire building and then you can see over to your left, my right, this unit ventilator exists, sometimes two of them in each classroom. The pipes run behind them. Right now, fresh air is brought in over those pipes, provides the fresh air requirements to be code compliant and to provide heat to the space. When we replace it, we will replace it with a coil as well. So that that same unit will now provide heating, ventilation, and air conditioning. The beauty of that is by combining the project, it's eligible for debt service aid. If you did air conditioning as

024a separate project, the state frowns on that and is not always looking to subsidize that separate project. So the fact that you're getting an opportunity to replace them, which doesn't always happen, the consideration is to add air conditioning. And I just want to point out when I talk about the life expectancy, the challenge is that getting parts for these things becomes more and more difficult. It's like any life cycle of something. If you've tried to go and get a new cord for one of your phones that are older, all of a sudden the new phones have different chords. Why? It's a business. No one wants to keep providing old cords because they want you to go out and buy a new phone. So, it's very similar in so much as parts are becoming more difficult.

025And if the system shuts down and you can't get fresh air and heat into a space, then at the end of the day, that classroom or that building has to be shut down. >> Yes, sir. >> So, just to reclarify, all the [clears throat] projects we believe within the infrastructure would qualify for services. That is correct. And we will know before anything gets presented to the vote. Once the board gives us direction, we submit the Department of Education applications. Just like before, you will get a preliminary eligible cost letter or a PEC. It will tell you what is eligible and then once we accept it, it'll be a final eligible cost. So, you're not committing to the vote yet. You're just committing to a Department of Education application at some point and then it will

026get back to us. We expect based on our experience of these projects that 100% of the projects will be eligible. >> So for the ventilators and the talking is that now that scope the same >> it's a little bit more now because one of the things we identified was for example um there were some additional rooftop units that we just said you know what if we're going to get all this done now start from a clean slate don't have to revisit this for 20 or 30 years and be done with it. Um, and one of the things that we did incorporate this time was based on whether you believe in global warming or not, the the realities are that when you designed the building back in the 1950s, '60s, '7s, '8s, typically the equipment was

027on the perimeter and the hallways had a little cabinet heater at the end just to take the chill off when the doors open. But this, and correct me if I'm wrong, I don't want to misspeak, but we are actually um the best practice that we've started to exercise and that our clients have engaged us in is we're going to um control the temperature in the hallways as well so that you don't have humidity issues. You don't have slip and fall issues that result in workers comp issues. So the answer to your question is that the scope reduced in some respects. We took out canopies, we took out other stuff, but we did add some other stuff in. So, it's a more comprehensive, you know, not have to revisit almost anything for 20 years. >> And

028sorry, similar question. The 24 looping scope would have been obviously bigger, >> correct? >> Is it was it $2.4 million bigger than it is now? that >> um I don't have the direct answer to that, but I would say approximately because all we did was pay for it in cash rather than through debt services. Okay. All right. Thank you. >> Anything else? >> Yes, ma'am. >> Is your contingency that's built in based upon total budget or are you looking on a project by project basis? >> Each project has its own contingency. So, we develop the hardcost budget. We incorporate market escalation because we know our budgets would be going into the Department of Education at some point in the near future, but the referendum still has to pass. After the referendum, we still have to

029develop drawings. Then we have to go out to bid. So we know that the market is going to continue to climb. And then we also carry a construction contingency which is required by the DOE and the best practice. So each project has each one of those line items or each one of those contingencies separately. When you said it was 10%, sometimes 10% is that for both or just the one >> market escalation we carry at 4%. And construction contingency at 10%. >> I just have a point of clarification. Sure. >> When [clears throat] you said debt servicing aid 34 cents on the dollar, effectively what you mean is that that's the state is offering a mechanism for the citizens taxpayers of the town to reclaim their tax dollars through that. That's a great way of

030looking at it because whether you know it or not, the state of New Jersey is the organization putting forth that debt service aid money. So when a district in South Jersey passes a referendum that has debt service aid, we all as New Jersey citizens are contributing through that through our tax dollars. So to your point, the state's mechanism is when you get your share, you're getting the benefit of recovering monies that you paid in through taxes and other people throughout the state are helping to fund your project because the money has to come from somewhere and we as taxpayers are the ones creating that pool of money with the state. >> So my my sons graduated here in 2012 or 2015. And I want to make sure that future generations have the same benefit. And

031the picture of the garbage cans, we used to play Tuesday night basketball, but after rain, we'd have to put up the garbage cans and play around. I get it. Glad to fix that. Now, but my my question point is with the new uh system presumably there'll be some savings in the utility bill. So, I don't know if there's a way to work that into the CDA that you're going to present to the public of this might preclude future schools raises and so it will benefit you, not just now, but >> it's a great point. So we typically call that modeling where we can take the energy efficient equipment and the lighting. So the LED lighting these will save operationally as well. The challenge that I always like to share is we can put together a

032model with some guesstimates or hypotheses on some of the pieces. But I suspect we all saw in our electric bill or our gas bills or our oil bills over the last several days we've had temperatures down in the two degrees. So we pay more. When it gets warmed up a little bit we pay a little bit less. And typically what we also see is that when you have better equipment now all of a sudden more people want to start using the building. The community wants to come in and use the gym later. So >> yeah let's go. [laughter] >> So um the answer is yes. We can talk to the board about trying to do that to give some sense of what kind of savings might be realized. Um it's a little difficult because we

033don't know the insulation values of the existing exterior walls. But but we can try to put something together if that is of interest to try to reflect what kind of savings can be realized. There are a lot of factors, the temperature, how often the light switches are turned on and off, how often the building is used. But but if that's something that we want to discuss, we can certainly try to do that from a modeling perspective. >> Anything else before I go on? Yes, ma'am. Um I was wondering if you could um speak to the then versus now aspect of safety in the classrooms and why we have to close the doors. So >> um >> say that again. >> So um just from my time on the board, they had mentioned for school safety

034that individual classroom doors need to be closed now. So we can't keep the doors open to let air flow through anymore. And so it makes for >> it's just I think it's important to note I mean and if you could speak to that. >> Yep. Um so the way school buildings are designed hallways are considered fire rated exits. And what that means is the concrete block walls create a rating so that god forbid there's a fire in the building in one classroom, kids can get out the door and the door which is typically raided. And in fact, if you look at the door that's open right now, you'll see a tag between the middle and top hinge. I I don't have my glasses for that distance. These are my reading glasses. So I have three

035pairs of glasses now. That's 20 years. Never. Um, but that's a rating that tells you that the door is probably a 20-minut rating and the hallway wall is an hour rating. So, from a fire egress perspective, that door has to be closed to maintain the integrity of the egress hallway. Another way to look at it is if you've ever been in a high-rise building, New York or anywhere, the stairways are exits. They're considered exits. And when you talk in architecture about the path of egress, there are different components. But an exit is defined as something that is raided that once an occupant gets into it, they are protected for a period of time so they can get out of the building. Because imagine if you're in a high-rise on the 20th floor, you're not going

036to make it down to the first floor in any reasonable amount of time. And they don't want you to use the elevators. So the argument is once you get through that stairwell door, you are in a protected exit that allows you to get down somewhat safely and then out of the building. Turn that staircase on its side and you have a hallway. That's the analogy. >> There's so much things we see between Kings and St. Clair's. >> Exactly right. It's these staircases that are rated. The taller the building, the bigger the rating. Your hallway here is 1hour rating because it's a one-story building. When you get up to multi-stories, it can be two to three to four hour rating. And as you can appreciate, it's more expensive to build. So that's why doors have to

037be closed. That's why doors have closers on them. And that's why there was a big to-do ago when the fire marshals wanted the doors to be closed for fire safety reasons. And they had to latch to maintain the fire integrity. But everyone wanted to keep the doors um the latches covered because it was inexpensive way with the magnets for lockdowns because every time little Johnny had to go to the bathroom, the teacher had to go unlock the door. But they said, "Okay, we'll just put these magnets on there and we'll just pull the magnet when there's a lock down." Problem is, when the magnet is there, you don't have the fire rating because the door is not latched. So, there was that big discussion between security and fire about how to handle it. But that's

038the answer to your question why doors need to be closed. I was just wondering in terms of ventilation why like you can just open the windows and open the doors and let the [clears throat] ventilation like I think that's old school way of doing things. >> Yeah. I mean look when you open the window because it's hot outside all you're doing is letting more hot in. >> Yeah. >> Right. And so I can appreciate that that's what we try to do. Um and there's this whole thing about balancing a system so that you know air does find its way into the hallways through creeps and and little cracks and crevices. But at the end of the day, you know, the intention is that these spaces are individually controlled and managed. Yes, ma'am. You had a

039question before. >> Yes. Why is the HVAC system? Is it oil, gas, or electric? >> Um, the fuel source for the build the boilers in particular are um gas. There is a gas line that comes in. There's a gas generator. So, the system here is gas line. >> Okay. Um, and you had bids up for the roof replacement and they ranged from like 279,000 to over 5 million. Is was it this were the bids based on the same square footage? >> No. >> Okay. >> So, where were we closest? >> The square footage is right there. >> So, these are the districts. These are my districts. >> So, you can see this was the average bid, >> right? These were the square footages. So you can see as low as 9,000, okay? >> As high

040as 23,000, 74,000. If you look at the average square foot price, that's where it's easiest to understand and to compare. And so the average cost of these bids that we're representing was $58. And we're budgeting for the new roofs, $62 a square foot. So glasses, too. Is that our project? Um, this was I think the older one or >> Yeah, I think this one's >> that was from last summer. >> Yeah, that was from last time. >> Yeah, that's been 53,000 ft in total over three years. >> Any other questions before I move on to bucket number two? >> Just a point of clarification for everybody. Um, if we the district were to receive funds, if this were to pass, we can only use those funds for these projects. Just to be incredibly clear, there's

041no pet projects. There's no there's nothing else. What you would see on this list is all we can spend those funds on and it's back. If it comes in less, we would return the money, right? >> Yeah. And and to help people understand, in my experience, right, we can do all we can to budget and to bring our experiences to bear, but the market changes constantly. For example, we've had biders 20 biders pick up for a project and 14 bid, and we've had others where it's only one. So, it's a matter of working with the district to time the bids correctly, not go out too early, not go out too late. Uh, we need to monitor the market because other communities are passing referendums and contractors are, you know, not plentiful because they have to

042be pre-qualified in a certain discipline. So, you'd be surprised how many times we see the same contractor over and over again. And contractors are limited on what they can bid. Part of the paperwork that they have to complete is something called a total of uncompleted projects. So, a contractor in one of these particular disciplines is pre-qualified for a certain amount. If it's a smaller contractor, he might be pre-qualified for one, two, $3 million. If he's a much bigger, he might be unlimited. But when he submits a bid, he cannot bid on a project if his pre-qualification amount is exceeded. So, for example, if he's pre-qualified for $5 million for heating, ventilation, and air conditioning, and he has $2 million of projects he's finishing up, he can only bid a project that's $3 million or less.

043If his bid is going to be $4 million, it get rejected right off. So, the pool of contractor is limited. And so, the goal is always to get money or to to get the bids in lower than the budgeted amount. But typically, what we see is our budgets are in the middleish. We always have some low, some high. And what I wanted to share is that you're going to have some projects that are going to come in over budget based on the circumstances, but you're also going to have some budgets that come in under budget. The goal is in the aggregate. We can only spend it on these projects and the goal is in the aggregate to deliver the referendum of these projects and we've been pretty successful at doing. Yes, sir. With the last

044round, there was a lot of discussion about the introduction of air conditioning and was it needed, was it a nice to have versus a necessity. Um, you made it sound like the in room units is what is providing the actual air conditioning. Is that right? >> That's correct. >> Is there a appreciable difference in the price between an in room unit that provides just heat and ventilation versus one that provides heat, ventilation, and AC? So, um, >> like for the qualifier again, >> are are we are we paying 5% more to add air conditioning, 20% more? >> Yeah. So, I would say you're probably and I I'll get back to you with a more tight number, but I'm going to say maybe 20% to 25%. Because the the the two pipes are going to be

045there no matter what. The unit, the heating, the ventilation components are going to be replaced. What ends up being added is you add a coil just like you do in your home and a condenser outside. And so those two pieces are what are being added to the equipment that's being replaced. >> Seriously. >> Well, and that's because it's a package unit. You're really getting you're paying 34 cents less for that component because it's it's part of the subsidy. >> Okay. Anything else on the infrastructure? Yes, sir. You mentioned this before, but I don't know if I understand it. >> Okay. >> All right. So, we had to do the roof. The the referendum didn't pass, so we just had to pay for it. >> Yep. >> You're saying that like boilers and stuff are maybe

046at the end of their natural life. And so, if that fails, >> you have a problem. >> We don't have enough money in the savings account to fix it. We can't put them to school. Like, there's no other option. Don't worry. >> Well, if you don't have the money, you don't have the money. So, what are the options? You can go to the Department of Education, and I'm led to believe you can ask them for a loan that you have to pay back. You might be able to go and get a 5-year lease on equipment, which I know some districts do. You'll have to pay that back with interest. Some bank will give you money to do that. But there are very few options that, and that's why districts put money into capital reserve, but

047as things have gotten tighter over the years, and and certainly Mr. Murray can speak to the capital reserve budgeting approach and and you know all of that, but you don't have $18 million in your capital reserve. Very few people do. So if you have a perfect storm and you ventilator start to go out and the boiler starts to go out, you know, all these things come together at once, it's an issue. Wish I had better news for you. [laughter] Just remember, I'm the messenger. Greg, I I have a question. Typically, most towns will do the bond, like they'll do a 20-year bond at the expiration, they'll typically bond after like usually they'll do a 20-year project and then at the end of that, they'll usually do another project like >> Yeah. And so, [snorts] my

048understanding is that the district did have debt rolling off back in 2020, but CO hit. Yeah. And so I think the the board took the conservative approach that look there's some uncertainty out in this world right now. It would be ideal to present a question that took the debt that was rolling off just continue paying those few dollars that every community member contributes and I don't know how much it was a million 5 10 whatever it was you could have arguably done that but the board choose to be very conservative which is very reasonable. Uh but many districts do that where okay let's monitor when our debt rolls off. You don't have any debt now. That's a good thing you don't have debt. But many districts look at, okay, in 5 years we have debt

049rolling off, and we do this quite a bit. Greg, let's start reverse engineering. The debt that's rolling off is costing us X dollars per year. What can we do for X dollars a year so we can go to the taxpayers and say this is a no-brainer. We have new needs. Vote yes. Your taxes won't change from what they are today. We're just going to keep leveraging that amount. So, so like just for practicalities, prior to 2020, if I was here, I was probably paying an extra 150 bucks a year. That debt last five years I haven't been. >> Correct. >> But and that's why towns typically do it. But then I'm also then not getting my debt service a back. >> That's correct. >> Dr. The other thing, too, like you would do on your

050home mortgage as rates may drop in that 20-year period, which we did on the last referendum, we refinanced. [clears throat] So when rates drop and it makes sense to refinance, there's actually a savings because you, you know, save on the finance as you would at your home. >> So that's a possibility within that 20 years. >> Correct. >> Any other questions on the infrastructure bucket? [snorts] Okay. So now we're going to move on to consideration number two. This is mutually exclusive from consideration number one. It is separate. The board still has a lot of decisions to make, but as part of the analysis that was being explored, the community spoke last time, we don't want to spend a million dollars on a storage room. We have educational needs that we think we could look at,

051and that's what this consideration is. So, currently, there are many classrooms throughout the building that are shared by teachers. And when I say shared, I don't mean a teacher has it first period, a separate one has a second period. If you go next door and maybe we can open that up. The room, the photographs on the left is one of these rooms behind you where there are three teachers in there teaching small groupoup instruction or specialed type classes with little temporary partition walls and multiple kids coming and going. The middle one is a similar space and then the right one is a photograph of the uh one of the hallways here. One of the storage rooms that were originally designed into the building have since over the course of decades been converted to a psychologist

052office, a child study team office, a small group instructional space, etc. So many of the spaces as a result of the growth within the district have been adapted from their original use, specifically storage spaces into educational spaces. It's not conducive. They are windowless. They're shared. And at the end of the day, this speaks to that third goal of providing an educational environment that is conducive to good learning. The um librarian has mentioned to us or media specialists mentioned to us many times, what used to be the office is now storage or something else and they're pushed out here. OTP runs here. So there's a lot of overlapping because of the change in programs and obviously the needs. Specialized instructional spaces, which are defined by the DOE, music, art, STEM, are also in a similar position.

053So, this is the music room. It's down the hall. If you've never been there, this used to be the storage room for the gymnasium. It's not an ideal music space. Music spaces have larger footprints, have higher ceilings because you're talking about the acoustics associated with instruments and chorus. So, again, here's an example where this was converted over time, but it's not really an ideal space. the art room. The art room services kindergarteners all the way to eighth graders. The kindergarteners have to reach up to the sink. The eighth graders have to bend over to the sink. The cabinetry is in poor shape. So again, this is supposed to be an artistic space. Um and and this was on the list to improve. And then technology is another example where the steam or STEM space has

054evolved and been introduced over the last decade or so, but it was never really formally addressed here. So they took a general classroom and converted it. The larger students, the middle school students have to come all the way down into the kindergarten area where a small classroom with a 3D printer and some Legos would probably suffice for the younger kids, but the STEM spaces is probably more conducive to be down at that end of the building and to be of a size where you can do the kinds of things to prepare them to go into high school and into college or into the workforce. So the considerations on part of bucket number two, the educational program are to address the classrooms that are being shared, address the special education needs and the windowless spaces, improve

055upon the specialized instructional spaces, music, art, and steam to deal with um the repurposing of some professional spaces, child study team, and director getting it out of closets, making conducive for the children. And we've talked about some kind of flexible multi-purpose space that would allow these meetings, these community gatherings, these staff meetings, all these things because what people don't realize if you're not in the building all the time, during the day space is all being used for education. And after hours, you could come in here and there's a group meeting in the library, there's a group meeting in the lower gym, you might have band practice in the gym, you might have a theater practicing for for an event, but there's very few spaces to have that. So part of the discussion was as part

056of these considerations, can we find a space that we can create or adapt to make it usable for multiple things where you know you move tables and chairs similar to this and you can make it a small group space, a large meeting space, etc. So those are the considerations which started to lead us to let's start doing some due diligence to see what our options are. So, for those of you that don't recognize it, this is an aerial view of the school. Um, one of the things that are limiting the footprint of the school, and let me back up half a step for the bucket number two, for any educational considerations, we can't fit it inside the existing footprint. At the end of the day, we have five pounds of stuff, excuse me, six pounds

057of stuff and we have a five pound bag. And so when we talk [clears throat] about the infrastructure projects, those are improving things that support the existing footprint. But if we're going to try to get rid of shared spaces, we need to create spaces to put people in. So one of the first things we did was because we knew the site reasonably well, we did a study of the site. The areas that are shaded are either wetlands or some other type of environmentally sensitive area. The red dotted lines are the setbacks that the Department of Environmental Protection requires of these sensitive environmental areas. In other words, you technically can't build anything within those red dotted lines. However, the beauty of what we've been able to do is the D, Department of Environmental Protection, they have

058these standard guidelines, a menu of general permits and rules that if you can comply with, you basically can get a rubber stamp and that you don't have to do a custom submission to them because the request we're making has been made by dozens before us. So rather than reviewing each application on its own merits, the D came up with these rules. So what we were able to figure out is that if we wanted to increase the footprint of the building and to be able to allow the opportunity for more educational spaces, we could fit up to approximately 10,000 square feet in that corner of the building. What we would do is obviously we would eliminate parking as a result of that. We would reintroduce parking along the front as a formal parking area rather than

059kind of along that tree line where people informally park. This we reviewed with the DP and based on their general rules, they were reasonably confident that we'd have no issues if we wanted to pursue something along this lines. The um the caveat is that it's up to 10,000 square feet. Doesn't mean we have to use all 10,000 square feet. Obviously, bigger will cost more, but there is at least this opportunity that's been identified without impacting the field, without impacting parking because you can it's small print, but basically the parking stalls remain exactly the same quantity and we actually added one ADA barrierfree stall. So circulation remains the same. The use by the kids after school will remain the same for track or other running exercises. But we were able to identify in a very constrained

060site this opportunity to build over the parking area and then move the parking over the existing building which I've shown you on a few images. Now, the pink areas represent the specialized instructional spaces or the spaces that are typically used by all the students. You recognize the upper and lower gyms to the right. The music room is here off of the gym, which used to be the storage room. That's the art room. This is the library. And this is the steam space. So, these are all the areas that are shared by everyone in the school. the red hatch which may be a little bit more difficult to see. These are the primary areas of concern. Closet converted to psychologist closet converted to child study team closet converts to director of curriculum. I'm sure I don't

061have the exact spaces correctly. I've embedded them in my head. They've been ingrained there. So I know they're in this general space. But 1 2 3 four all of these are windowless spaces that used to be storage rooms and are now being used by some form of professional for education. Here we have the um uh down here which is the space I mentioned we have two spaces that were designed as general classrooms being shared by two and three teachers here we have three teachers sharing a space here we have two teacher >> two teacher apparently it's touch >> touch um two teachers sharing a space that's the art room that's the music room so um these were the primary areas of focus when we started talking about educational needs needs as part of the consideration.

062And then just to put things in perspective as it relates to the plan, that's what you saw on the site aerial map, which could be a possible expansion up to 10,000 square ft if we wanted to do it. And depending on how we designed it and what kind of direction the board wanted to go in, it might mean that we move spaces into that expanded area and then renovate an interior space. So that's something that would have to evolve based on the direction from the board. The next question is what's that going to cost? And the answer is I don't know yet because the board has to provide us some guidance to say all right Greg you know we want to keep it super simple. We want to get the shared spaces done. You know

063what is it going to look like for a thousand square foot which would be less expensive than if we wanted to develop the full 10,000 square ft. [snorts] Okay. Any questions on the educational bucket? >> Going up is not an option. >> So going up is always an option, right? >> You have to have an elevator. >> Well, here's the issue. So, so the biggest hiccup with going up is you have to add an elevator and at least two means of egress. So, if you said to me, Greg, let's use 65,000 square feet of a second floor, I would say the cost of an elevator and the cost of two staircases dimminimous compared to the 65,000 square feet. So economically it might be worth it. The price tag will be enormous, but at least proportionally

064those two components will be reasonable. If we're only going to do a 10,000 foot addition, max it out and put 10,000 above it to put an elevator and two stairs will cost you hundreds and hundreds of thousands of dollars proportionally for an additional 10,000 ft on second floor. It would not be worth it. The other piece is typically when you need the space, which is when schools need the space, you'd have to empty out space underneath to build over it because you don't want kids underneath you while you're constructing. Not to mention the third piece is we don't know if the foundation system was designed to support a second floor. So there are these check boxes that the question always comes up and we've done it once in 38 years successfully, >> but there are

065a lot of things to consider if you want to do that and it's not always less expensive. Yes, ma'am. >> The educational needs that are being contemplated, is that to try and get kids that we're sending out of district [clears throat] for special education needs back into our school or is this just to help facilitate with the current students in our district sharing [snorts] space? >> The majority of of that would be the current students that we're having right now. give that >> um less of a question but just kind of observation or something as part of the consideration is you know one of the one of the talking points is the lack of window or windowless rooms too many windowless rooms and it seems like putting that square in there you now are creating

066those two lines that are now becoming windowless >> you have no faith in your architecture [laughter] >> I I >> I am confident I am confident that we can come up with some very good solutions It might mean raising the roof in an area and doing clear story lights, but that's the beauty of hiring the right professional. Stay tuned. This is like a good movie where they end you on a cliffhanger and then you're going to come back and you go, "Oh god, we have the right guy from the dealer." >> Yes, sir. [clears throat] >> Uh so I have a few. Uh uh the first one I think is to piggy back on what you just said and to piggy back what you just said is that [snorts] uh obviously raising the exterior wall

067to provide some clear story windows obviously adds the same cost similarly to just adding an addition up, right? Uh your your exterior wall has to go up. That's going to have additional loading onto your foundation. That's going to have more roofing cost because now you have a elevated section. Correct. >> I would respectfully disagree. I think if you're raising and making a space one and a half times or one and a quarter times taller, then your roof is still your roof. >> Your wall is a little bit higher, but you have no roof structure or floor structure. You have the floor and the ceil and the roof structure. When you're doing a second floor, you have the roof the floor structure and another second floor and a second floor structure and second floor finishes. So,

068I'm not going to say that there's not some additional cost to creating a slightly higher wall because you're right, you're going to have to um incur additional exterior wall space that you're going to build, but generally speaking, it doesn't come close to what it would cost to build a second floor. >> Okay. >> Uh the next one is so the main point that I or at least two points that I saw in your presentation is one that you're trying to get rid of the windowless areas. same concern is that I think where you're proposing creates what looks to be significantly more windowless locations, right? Even if you were to put a corridor in the middle of that >> on one of those lines, only one door. >> Well, so still the >> We can answer

069that. Yeah. If if we were to go build >> depending on the size of the build, there would be zero windowless rooms. >> Well, no. Educational state. >> Well, no. Well, this is where this is where I'm asking because the so what so the concern is I think a lot of the offices don't have windows and I understand for I think some of the special needs that windows are important right for at least in instructional purposes 100%. But for office spaces generally we're adults and we could sit in a windowless room and not >> but I think Greg I was saying >> so my question is we've started to sketch out things just to give give us a sense of you know what would this look like and we need the board to chime in

070before we start presenting bigger concepts to the community. But I'm reasonably confident that we can come up with solutions because that block was identified from a site limitation perspective. And I think depending on the board's commitment to exploring something, I'm confident that based on the program elements, we can come up with a solution that addresses most if not all of those things. >> So there's different things you can do within the confines of that that we take a look at. And the goal is to get children out of good service, >> which is I agree 100% is a great goal. Again, there's a lot of studies on that being the the benefit to the kids. I'm for the kids having the best educational facilities possible, but where again it looks like in terms of trying

071to solve the problem of more space needed for these few classrooms forces us into this one spot. But this one spot from what I can see, right? If I I I'll tell you is I I have also have some experience designing schools that you're going to put a corridor, you're going to put some classrooms or you're going to put some offices, you're going to put a corridor, you're going to put some classrooms and where it's oriented looks to be very difficult in order to achieve both goals of windows and more classroom space without sacrificing some other issue later on. Um, and this is where my concerns, this is where my concerns are coming because it doesn't look like we have any other options unless we go further with the D approach, which again because of

072the wetlands and the lake nearby and the woods surrounding us doesn't also seem to be a very viable solution. So what's the what's the alternative if the board says I would like 10,000 square feet and then you come back and say I can't make all these rooms have windows. I just from my perspective and just to give some more thing or more uh experience is that I uh Buen did a referendum 15 years ago uh to build a K through 8. There is no K where they built that addition. It's 1 through eight. And so my concern is is that there was a referendum. We gave money to the to the schools to build this K3. And then at some point in the process, I don't know when, I was too young at that point,

073the K got dropped. And so the idea is everyone wants is windows and offices and this beautiful music room. I think you even said with a raised ceiling. >> I I don't know how that all figures in. That is 100% your your your task, but how do we know that we're going to get all your conclusions? or is it was somewhere along the line something's going to be oh well this office doesn't need to have a window but it does do this or this classroom well yeah okay this classroom can live without windows it's a music room or something like that where you're giving us these great outlines but what's the possibility of that actually being achieved >> before any of this moves forward to a question those kinds of design concepts will be developed

074and presented >> so you will see it the only I I was not involved in the bootin issue. One of the only things I can tell you is that they may have dropped the K because their population grew faster than they expected and they needed more one through eight classes and they had to find another place to do the K. In Sparta, they built a brand new middle school to deal with the population growth and by the time the school got finished years later, it was already at capacity. So, you know, there is this dynamic that happens outside the architectural world that I don't have a control over. But before they committed, they being the board to this, presenting it to the community, will have developed sketches much more thoroughly, have had them sign off

075on it, present it to the community, and then been able to say, "Here's the plan. We know the plan fits. If we need something else, I mean, you could always just take away the softball field, right? You could just continue to build out that way, and you could create a corridor that extended, put classrooms on either side, but then you lose the softball field." So, we were trying to come up with a creative way to keep the site intact for all the things that are it's being used for. And, you know, I'm confident that if the board decides they want to go through a design exercise um and and review the stuff that we've conceptually started to talk about that everyone will have a chance to see that before it goes to the voting booth

076and I think many of your questions will be answered. >> So, I think hold just to address that it's a fair point, right? And I don't mistake what you see here as final. >> It's what he's giving us, of course, is an option. And that's what we're proposing is an option to build in the space. We'd obviously look at that space. And the goal is no windowless rooms, right, for children. And and what guarantees do you have? We'll have to look at the final designs when we see it. >> Again, I'm mostly my question is coming from is again how it was presented and maybe that is just the point of the presentation is that there was a nice option here. Yeah, >> but they didn't look like there was other options >> looked at.

077Again, you are very limited. You are 100% limited from the presentation you showed me. But are again if you say I need more classroom space and I think this is one of the questions I asked in one of the prior seminars is have we considered what our future needs are in 25 years as you just stated are did we look at our projection of saying in 10 years when this is done do we need more classroom space? >> Yes. So then we're building 10,000 ft now maybe, but we need actually 12,000 in which case this is where, you know, so then we're going to be back at the referendum board saying, "Well, we need to build this into the softball field because now we're out of room." >> Yeah. If you look at the original

078evolution of the building, that's what's happened over time, right? 1959, one expansion here, one expansion. There's no master plan to say, "Hey, we got a 1959 building. let's shove it to this end of the property so that if the district ever needs to spend more, they can just do it here. That's not often looked at, unfortunately. Um, as it relates to projections, typically a demographic study is done for 5 years. That is what we've been constantly told by demographers and other professionals is the only reliable information you can have. To project out 10, 15, or 20 years, it's virtually impossible to see what will happen with a community and its demographic. So, I think that the district does have a demographic. There are some enrollment projections that are showing some kind of increase. Um, they've

079been talking about possibly, you know, redoing those so that they could extend out another five years, but there, you know, it's literally looking at a crystal ball for anything beyond that because there's so much that could go on. for communities where the development and everything is kind of it is packed out. It's less of an issue than in some of the Sussex rural areas where people just keep selling their farmlands and developers keep popping up and then you know the population changes unless it's a 55 or over. But I think your points are very well taken and there is a lot of stuff that still has to be done. This is as was shared earlier. This is the first chance that the board as a whole can engage one another in talking about what has

080been presented over the course of months and for the community to also give their input because we took what they said last time very seriously. We don't need to spend a million dollar for storage room. What can we do for education? SP >> how much of the educational would be covered through the state New Jersey debt service? >> Unfortunately, zero. And here's why. This is the brief version. when the state the state wants to incentivize renovations to existing building. So most everything that you can contemplate under an existing footprint will probably be covered. They also recognize that sometimes a school has to expand. So they have a calculation called unhoused students and that's a relatively simple calculation that says you have x number of square feet in your building today. You do some simple math

081based on a square foot per student. And if you have more in your building than that number, you have unhoused students. It doesn't mean they're being taught on the street. It just means that their calculation has an unhoused student population. And if you don't, it doesn't exist. So you don't have an unhoused student population. It doesn't mean that the DOE's version of that calculation is correct because you still have spaces being shared. But that's how they deem wanting to spend their monies. The other piece that I'll share with you, which is a little wonderful secret, any renovation that we look at in the form of these infrastructure projects, the state is committing 34 cents on the dollar for whatever we budget. So, it's our budget, which we're confident can be delivered at 34 cents. New

082construction, they wrote in the statute, this was decades ago, $134 a square foot. So, you'd be eligible for 34 cents on the dollar of that. They increased it a few years later to $143 a square foot, but that was decades ago. I can tell you that public projects are nowhere near being built for $143 a square foot. It's four, five, six times that in some cases. It's ridiculous. I know that we can build it less for our homes, although those prices have gone up, but that's just the public sector. You still get the 34 for the first Hucker and whatever >> you do. But but when you have a multi-million dollar project, if you had unhoused students, right, you have to check the first box to qualify. >> So you don't even check the first

083box. >> We we check the first box, >> the second box, you'd be getting 34 cents on the dollar of 143, but it's really going to cost you significantly more. >> Whatever it is, it's not. That's a big fat muc. >> Yeah. Where are we going to put? >> So, the storage unit was going to take the place back here of the old storage trailers. >> How much space was that, Greg? Do you remember? >> Said 12 members for a fee. >> I believe. >> Yeah. You got >> like four pages of notes over here. >> Good. which I think is is a good point too is that if we were to consider expanding uh and rather than doing a new storage area, a lot of those old storage areas can actually become storage and

084then you get small disruption of areas >> and and and that was the logic when Ken came in, you know, his position was okay, he got a debrief on what happened last time and what the community said and he said, well, Greg, make sure I'm thinking about this logically. If we create educational spaces and get people out of these rooms that were stored, don't we get storage back? And the answer is yes. You know, is it a 15t high space, one clear room? No. It's a lot of smaller rooms. The music room we could take back, for example, if we moved the music space, but at the end of the day, it's a little more fragmented, but you're getting storage back, which is what it was originally. >> And the last thing, sorry to before

085throw to Ken, is that and and it's well taken like those things. And for for me, this is the first time the board's been all together to talk about it. So, you're very much like seeing us bake the cake together here. Uh, and just relying on some of the things that I've heard from Ken too is like totally windowless board like getting kids the heck out of storage rooms like like having kids share three teachers in a room, not having the right resources for our special ed. It's just like to me we're not doing right by our kids. Uh, and so I know there's a lot there. So I think like the board is taking all this into consideration saying like the most important thing is getting students out of there getting students into the

086right environments making sure that they can see. So it's just like fundamental things I get the window thing like that's on the list like there's other things that even for me when I'm hearing I'm like there's certain things we just need to make sure are like primary things if we do this >> that happen uh and then we'll take into consideration you know all those other things which are important but for me it's like let's get the students in the right direction. That's crazy. >> Just one one thing because I I appreciate what you were saying before about spaces and uh you know windowless spaces and I do realize that there may be some financial or physical space limitations in terms of what I'm thinking about what's best for kids. So then at that point

087I would have to take in consideration what's going on in those rooms. For example, my office I'm in and out all day. I'm on the phone. I'm here late at night. So for me, if there was a sacrifice, I'd give up my office as a window as a windowed space to a windowless space and I would take somebody else out and put them in that space. If there's somebody who's in that space as a guidance counselor, for instance, or therapist and they have kids in there all day long, I may say that's a priority. Or if there's a self-contained class, they definitely are in there all day long, not only the teacher, but the students all day. That's a high priority for me. >> Thank you. >> Any other questions on this? Yes, sir. >>

088Can you go back to the map, please? >> So, most of it the if it's a 10,000 foot edition, it goes right where those red lines cross. >> Yep. Right. >> Yeah. >> It goes where it goes right there. It goes right across the red line where the varian limit. >> Uh, is that an issue? >> Nope. We're already met with the D. The DP cannot give us a formal approval because we haven't submitted a formal application because we want to wait for the referendum question to pass and then we go through. But they do have what they call pre-application meeting. So we had that with our engineering team with our environmental consultant who used to work for the D. And the whole conversation was very positive. They understood what we were trying to accommodate

089and based on the fact that we're building over a parking lot. We're not damaging more green area. So, they were super supportive of that. And the only issue they had when we build these parking lots, you're going to love this. You have something called pin oak trees. They are a habitat for the bat. The bat is a protected species. So, we were told protect the pin trees. I mean they said if you do that you have our blessing. So congratulations >> the falcon >> falcon falcon. Now you're the bats >> different falcon the bats. >> Greg. >> Yes. Quick question. So it seems as if you're envisioning this as two questions. your [snorts] infrastructure needs and your educational needs. I can envision what happens here is that addition without getting a 34 cents, it's going

090to have a hard time getting through. What do you see as a as a contingency plan to Mr. Chen's point is those education spaces that are being shared to me is a crime, right? What do you think you could possibly do if you don't get that addition? So I I answered this lovely lady's question that have faith in your architect because I'm confident given the opportunity to make use of up to 10,000 square feet we can come up some good solutions. I however am not a magician and the realities are that if the so number one the board hasn't decided how many questions yet but to your point I don't think it's unreasonable to say well okay last time we had one question but these are clearly two very distinct things with different potential price

091tags so let's present as two questions typically referendums that are presented to communities I've seen as many as three questions I don't recommend going beyond that but I've seen up to three questions so the board still has to decide but it's likely they will divide it into two questions because so cleanly cut. If the community says no to both or one to yes and and the other one no, I don't have a backup plan because you can't create space in a building that is maxed out [clears throat] without the benefit of expanding the footprint. So, I wish I could tell you I do. I'm certainly happy to sit down and to get people's input to see if there's something we can do, but you know, short of eliminating one gym and making it into classrooms,

092right? But then you're down a gym. So, you're no better along than you were necessarily before. >> My point is I wonder if and this is up to the board. Maybe you go back to one question because you need that seems to me like you need that addition >> and and the pro and the con of that is if the one question fails there is right there. I'm not suggesting that the educational needs are wish list items. That's not for me to say. >> Right. >> There's a need there. But you're shutting down a school if there's no money to replace a boiler, the roof leaking, and you know, basketball players flipping and kids falling on their heads and whatever else. So, this is clearly a tactical decision that these members that were voted to

093represent you have to make. I've seen districts in my 38 years of doing this make great decisions on that front that have proven to be successful and have made awful decisions. And I'm going to go on the record of saying contrary to my recommendations at the time and they missed out on a tremendous amount of opportunities. So I'm not suggesting this is an easy decision. It has to tactically be well thought out because the clock is ticking on your boiler, on your roofs, on your HVAC equipment and and everything else. Yes, sir. >> Is there even the ability to have a backup plan? It sounds like based on the referendum, the money that we get has to be for those specific projects. We can't decide, oh well, the addition failed, so let's take some of

094this money and do something with this. Correct. It's not even an option. >> No backup. >> So, we just need to sell the community on we need this addition to vote yet. >> Yeah. And and I mean, >> I think we need to see budget numbers though. >> You see the budget numbers. >> And that's the point, right? This is a financial decision as well. There's a need, but there's going to be a threshold that the community is going to be willing to support. temporary classroom units are an option, but they still have to be paid for. And then you incur this annual rental cost. And I remember going to elementary school where they had temporary classroom units and they were there for 35 years. I mean, that's not a temporary classroom anymore. In 35

095years, it has to be reertified every couple of years. So, you know, that's a backup plan, but it it's it's not, you know, that's not a $10,000 commitment. >> They're trailers. >> Yeah. They're trailers. Yeah. Portable portable trailers. Temporary classroom units. Yeah, >> theory you could probably get New Jersey aisle please. >> You could join us at the DOE application. [laughter] >> Um I think what baffles me is that you said the cost would be about $124 per basically per house correct for the year. >> 5 million million. >> So this is what the financial advisor gave us. This is for the infrastructure projects. >> Okay. So, >> so for every five million, >> okay, >> that the board chooses to move forward with of the infrastructure projects, >> the financial advisor told us it'll

096be $12 a month or $148 a year on the average home. So, I don't know, the average home is $580,000 in the community, I think, something like that. So, if your house is worth less, you're going to pay less. If your house is worth more, you're going to pay more. The only way to do the calculation is on the average assessed home. >> Based upon your earlier slide, it's $12 million. So we got to multiply that, you know, 48 by one. >> That's exactly right. >> So it's like >> it's a few hundred $450 $500 depending on what is ultimately selected to move the project forward. >> Okay. Per household >> per average how on the household. Some will be less, >> some may be more. >> Okay. So we're looking at like $500 approximately.

097>> Okay. >> Give or take. >> But just to be clear for the infrastructure project, >> right? >> That's bucket number one. with pocket number [clears throat] two >> the education >> education >> whether we do the initial >> but is there a cost is there is that been done the bucket number two is that been done for >> I think that's for us to figure out >> no say if we let's say we we do bucket number two and it cost x that number still >> it's going to be high it's going to be by nature 35 >> because that's the number it takes into consideration that's why it says oneligible project because that what this this financing takes in consideration the state paying 34 cents on dollar for it >> right share of

098the answer is 12 and a half >> I don't know what the back math would be but it's what maybe it's >> 190 per every >> it's a more complicated calculation that I would want to embark on but certainly the financial adviser could tell us >> that's that's bucket one number >> this is bucket one number [clears throat] >> had a separate question about the bonds >> where again >> are they being sold based upon the approved budget or upon actual bids that we receive when we accept? >> So they are typically sold on the budget and then as I mentioned to you this is going to be a multi-year exercise and so you want to so post referendum we'll look at the market. Sometimes the financial adviser will recommend we go out for short-term

099notes expecting that interest rates are going to drop. The interest rates are actually pretty good. They're below 4% for these kinds of projects. Even though mortgages are at 6, 7%. These kinds of bonds are lower, less than 4%. So, sometimes they'll recommend a short-term note for a year or two while we're doing construction and then we'll convert them later. Sometimes the interest rates are so good because the interest rates are done through bidding as well. Banks are given information. Banks will come in with sealed envelopes and they will bid on the interest rate for your business. Ultimately, if you do it, you will budget, you will bond the budgeted amount. You can't spend more than the voters approved. And then ultimately, what will happen is we will draw down on that for the different projects.

100So technically, the money that's being put away, you'll earn a little bit of interest on. And as I mentioned to you, the expectation should be in the aggregate, we will deliver a referendum in its entirety, but some projects might come in under budget, some projects might come in over budget. We have a referendum right now where we're a couple a couple million dollars um in the black meaning we have surplus because the first few projects come in under budget and at the end of the exercise if there's money that is not being used to reiterate Chris's position you cannot go and now say we're going to build an addition or we're going to do something else. It had to be for those projects and so the money will be returned and and not drawn down

101on. Do you have a timeline for infrastructure like construction? I mean, it'll vary and change. >> Yeah. So, the a referendum can be presented five times during a year. January, March, if you have your election in April, or if you don't, and you have it in November, uh, September, and December. Those are the five times, either April or November, and the other four. So, right now, there's been active conversation that we still have an opportunity to potentially go to a November. And the beauty of that is you don't pay for a special election. Um if you go to December or January, you could still do that as well, but you pay for a separate election. So I would say that if the referendum happens in 2026, then you might see some smaller projects in the

102summer of 2027 because we still have to finish our detailed drawings. The state doesn't want overly detailed drawings and the district spend a lot of money developing these in case the referendum is unsuccessful. So you'll you might see a few smaller projects in 27, but I suspect you'll start to see a lot of the work in 28. We do most of it in the summertime. >> Um, some of these projects you cannot do just in the summer. So, for example, with unit ventilator replacement, what'll probably happen, we'll get a lot of work done over the summer, but what'll happen is we'll coordinate with Ken and the teachers, and we'll say, okay, the bidder is going to work after hours in the fall, winter, and spring. So, these two classrooms will be vacated, and those teachers

103have to take the students for a week to here. It'll be a little inconvenient. They'll come in at 3:00. They'll work all night till 11. The teacher won't be able to come back in because it's still a construction zone, but a week later, that unit will be up and running. The teacher will be moved back in there and they'll go on to the next block of two classrooms. So, there's a lot of tactical decisions that will go into how these things are done. >> Jen, >> that's like Jen, but that's one example of how we accomplish things because these projects are so large, they can't be done in a three-month summer window. other question. >> Um, I know we can't use the if you're under budget on your infrastructure from the state of New Jersey,

104that money is returned. What about on the educational considerations? So, that's not being backed by the state. Is it the same obligation? >> No. You as the community, the board will say, "Greg, develop the full 10,000 ft. Give us the budget. Greg, you've lost your mind. Give us the budget for a 1,000 foot addition." Whatever they decide to present to the community, you will vote on. That's the amount of money we can spend, not a penny more. It has to be for the scope. So, they can't say, "Design something for 1,000 square feet." And by the way, this happens. It's called scope creep in my industry. Post referendum, everyone gets excited that we had a referendum. They say, "You know, Greg, I know we only told you to design 2,000 square feet, but can we

105get four?" No. Like, there's no money for four. But, you know, people want to make it realistic for the community to support it. And then once it's once it's supported, it's oh, let's go. Let's get all the kids out of the whatever. So you you the voters decide that's the amount of money you can spend on the project that was identified. There are some gray areas as it relates to, you know, we have five classrooms that we're proposing and you know, we have to finagle them a little bit and we got a bathroom in there as well, something like that, but you know, they can't completely deviate. >> But to answer your question, the money can also be returned if we understand. Yes, that's what you were asking. >> Yeah. The question is is it

106required to be returned versus can you take it and put it into something else >> again requirement >> anything else to give >> just the law >> just how big is an average classroom here >> so I'm going to answer two separate questions to answer your question because these buildings were built in 1959 or whatever else the classes are probably slightly different sizes. There's probably not one common standard and I don't know if Dan [clears throat] typical >> they range about 7 to 800 feet depending on what you >> the new facility efficiency standard which was introduced in 2000 has a kindergarten at 950 ft² 50 feet of which is a bathroom elementary school grades at 850 ft² a middle school grade at 800 ft and a high school at [clears throat] 700 ft² so

107those are standard classroom sizes that the state has outlined it doesn't mean Well, they're not going to give if you are eligible and you wanted to build a middle school classroom bigger than the state standard, they'll say great, you can build it bigger. We're not going to fund any more than this. This whole facility efficiency standard was created to level the playing field in funding across the state. That was its primarily primary function because before then it was all based on square foot price. I could design a classroom at 20 square foot net per student, find out from the superintendent how many kids he wants to put in that class, and then this elementary or middle school could be very different than one in South Jersey because you put 20 kids in the classroom and

108they put 30. The classroom will be bigger. So, the state leveled that off. Yes. >> Other than the size not meeting standard, are there any other um rooms or facilities within our class, our educational facilities in the building that don't meet standard? height. >> Well, your music room. >> Why? >> Because music room has to be,200 footprint with a ceiling height that is higher than 8 and 1/2 ft. 8 and 1/2 ft is a general classroom ceiling height or 9 ft. 9 ft is a general classroom ceiling height. So, your music room is one example because it was converted from a storage. Um, obviously you have small group instructional spaces. You have the the psychologist, the director of curriculum where they're seeing students. Those don't comply. I mean, we didn't analyze each and every space

109per se because the exercise wasn't to redesign the entire school, but there are certainly, you know, a few that that wouldn't meet the standards if you were designing it fresh today. >> Yes, sir. >> So, one condition that didn't exist a few years ago, the first rep is that now Terrace Sand is fully up in operation. The township of movement is collecting close to $2 million a year in campus revenue. They had not before. Some went to finance township hall. So, how will the board work with concert committee to try to get some of those funds? Because when I was buying pumpkins and Christmas trees and farms, I'm sure that money was going into the general fund. Seems to be elsewhere. So, what can be done? Is that money fungeible? Can they give us rebates

110on our property taxes to offset the bond? I it's hard to we I believe we're not allowed to touch that money. Cannabis money is federally. It's only state legal. So it's not something we can use. >> That's my go back to my plan. Promise you give us property tax. >> Then your thing passes everyone wins. >> If I could jump in, I think in the township newsletter on the Friday, I don't know if you're signed up for the newsletter that they send out every Friday. But I think a few months ago when they would announced that they were building their town hall, they um wonderfully maybe is the right word said we took all the funds from that they're getting for the uh the farm and they're using that to bounce the the bond for

111the building they just built. >> Yes. And so while yes, I think they originally proposed us to get a tax cut, >> they uh used it all for their finances of the new town hall. [laughter] >> That aside, I don't believe we could use >> again. I'm not Yeah. So uh >> first heard back. >> Uh I guess it's it's not too you this time to the board. >> Uh what are we doing to set up like a trust? So again, or is there is there any thoughts of setting up some type of trust where you asked us the taxpayers for more money but over the years you build up a nest nice little nest egg? I think that is your capital improvement fund that I think is mentioned, right? But it sounds like that

112is dangerously low or not a viable solution for a lot of these projects. But again, I come back to saying in 20 years time I expect to still live on Birchwood Lane. I do not want to sit through another one of these and say, "Oh, well, we should have thought about this in 2026 when we were building this last time." And saying, "Well, if you guys had the funds at the time, right, is there some thought of the future of saying, "Well, yeah, in the future I might need another $5 million to do this other project, this other thing, and luckily I won't have to ask the taxpayers as much because I can increase my taxes $1 a household for this year or something like that." and that starts building you a nest egg to

113then say in the future in 20 years time, oh, I could pull this money and build whatever I want to build. Uh, has that ever been thought about in terms of like a trust or something? >> Well, I don't want to speak for John, but I'm Francis. I'm one of the new board members. I I was thinking about this issue, right? And and one of the things that I was thinking about is the the need to get the students into the proper educational spaces and then and then just the baseline infrastructure stuff, right, which is absolutely necessary. And I was thinking about trying to figure out and I think it'd be interesting to go to the archive and find out when that board meeting was. It might not be online because I think it was

114probably around 1997 or 1998 that we'd have to go to the board minutes to try to find out what that conversation was. So we're thinking it's 2026. So we're thinking this was 20 28 years ago. There was a board that made that expansion of the year 2000 and replaced the boilers and replaced Is that accurate to say the ventilation units were from the year 2000 or >> No, they're okay. So those are even older. So those are those have been running for far longer than 28 years. So I was thinking about about that that what we as a board are trying to do is try to do the right thing for up to 25 to 30 years into the future with that degree of uncertainty. So I totally agree with your point that we want

115to get that right. The other thing, and I'm not um I'm not the the business administrator, but I I know we've all been aware that CPI inflation has been since 2018 something like 20% or I don't want to make up the number, but the tax cap in New Jersey since 2011 on school taxes have been 2%. So if you think about that from the perspective of school finance essentially the amount of money that a school district could raise in the best case scenario uh is far lower than the amount of inflation which means the real spending power right not the nominal but the real spending power of the school district has been diminishing. So I like the idea of a trust, but I think financially the only mechanism that the state as the taxpayers is

116availed for school finance of infrastructure and expansion is to send that to the voter within the very narrow confines of what what Greg was talking about with the kind of bid process and in the regulations. So, I'm very uh the point is I'm very sensitive to the idea of of making sure that we get the best amount of dollars for the taxpayer while balancing that with making sure that we we don't leave, you know, a generational cycle without the needs being met. >> Agreed with Francis on all accounts. We do have the capital reserve and as you've probably seen, we use some of the root and John >> I can answer ahead and I'll answer. >> I was going to say we we we fund it with whatever is left. So, almost all of our

117revenue comes from the tax levy, right? And we're capped at 2%. You used to be used to be you're now no longer >> I'm sorry. >> I I believe that Mr. >> I'm going to address that. I'm going to address that. We we were capped at 2%. We'd like to keep that with this district and we would have to we would have to send it up for a vote if we were going to raise it and Mr. Murray has been excellent at managing the budget and making sure we can do whatever we need for the taxpayer within that 2%. Every year if we have a little bit extra, he puts some away for capital reserve which we've used for things like the roof. We spent several million dollars so far. I don't know the exact

118number, John, because we've had to do it in pieces because we don't have the money to do it all at once. We can continue to put some weight if and I don't know the numbers. We've learned to raise taxes about 2%. The amount of money you're talking on these types of projects are usually done through this type of work, right? It's it's no different in the private sector. I work in that all the time where we would have a capital project. we would we'll build something, we'll put it on the balance sheet and what amortize it over the life of that project. Here, we're doing the same thing. We're trying to spend the taxpayers money appropriately and spend it over 20 years and and spread that cost over that that period of time rather than

119just raising taxes and having that come in year-over-year. This would plus the state, as we talked about, will fund some of this at a certain percentage. It's a better use, I think, to Mr. Hitinger's uh point. >> I'm not against the referendum. idea. No, just just to make Yeah. >> It's to say that. >> So, if you're, for example, you're saying the unit ventilators are out of date. I missed the first part. I'm sorry. I got stuck at work. But you're saying the unit ventilators are out of date. The idea would be then if like a unit ventilator was failing or something. I I think last year I heard that there was literal rain coming through the ceilings in spots in the building. So this is my so this is where I this is where

120I had problems I want to say at some point in you know last year and when I first heard of these problems saying okay I could hear I could understand that there's some spots where okay sure that you can't just patch it right 100%. But some money has to be also going to maintenance or saying replace saying yeah I don't have to wait 25 years to replace my unit ventilator if I find that it's not working right or it's not operational >> until financial planning you're 100% right. The problem is that the facilities and infrastructure projects are typically the first things to be cut and the last things to be thought about because when you have caps or the voters deny before the 2% levy or opportunity, you had April budget votes and you could

121arguably do whatever you wanted to do. Boards still want to be conscious of not raising taxes. And then when you get a what was your health insurance increase this year, John? >> 20 to 23%. >> 23% health insurance increases. There's not a lot of money left at the end of the year to put away for capital reserve. So, conceptually, you're right. Right. You put $5 away every year so that it builds up for the rainy day. >> So, we do have a maintenance reserve and we have a capital reserve. If one unit ventilator were to go, you know, >> 41 is a different story. That's >> Let me answer that question because there questions there. So, we can't set up trust funds, but the state gives us the ability to set up a capital reserve

122fund, which is limited on what we can use it for. It's for capital projects, replacement projects. There's also a maintenance fund. We've done everything possible to keep these things mandated, you know, within the budget without having to raise above the 2%. But that there's also a maximum that you can keep in the capital reserve, which is up to your long range facility plan. Say, for example, all the projects that we had identified in that plan are $10 million. That's the maximum you can put in there. that doesn't address a wholesale replacement of infrastructure. So, we've done what we can to keep these things running, but again, this new system, this new project would include replacements, an energy management system that right now everything's independently controlled. That's the way it was designed. It's not very efficient.

123So, again, we've we've hatched the rooms, we pulled from Capital Reserve, but that's a rainy day fund. you can easily go through that money, but again, they they limit what we can use it for and they limit how much we can put in there. >> So, John, you're saying that there's there's a cap. >> There's a cap of what you can put in there each year and we've been putting in there maybe 400,000 500,000 of of unused funds because, you know, budget is basically that you're you're planning a year and a half out for what you think you're going to spend during the school year. And you know there there mechanisms during the year to try to save money to say hey we still need to put money away >> does that sorry does that

124help so again yes it answers a good chunk of my question but again I'm trying and away from what you were saying I think Greg is what I understand is that I'm trying to have at least the board understand that I think to some extent some people in the township I know that like me I I assume there has to be like-minded people like me or maybe not is that the referendum would also you know if or not the referendum but or if there was some portion of that we're saying like yes look we're trying to do all this work but in the future we also are going to be looking for this amount of increase to maintain this this this building for the upcoming future again you're saying I can't forecast out 25 years

125because of students I'll tell you is that I think everyone here knows about the courts mandating more apartment buildings in every town. That's never going to go away. It's only going to go up. And Buen Township's poised for a development somewhere in this township. I do not know where, right? But it's bound to happen. There's bound to be more kids coming in at some point in the future. And I can promise you the developers building that apartment are going to be quicker than us building schools by at least 10 years. And so the concern that I have or at least the one of my ones I'm trying to help the process but also probably heard it by telling you I would like you guys to at least come with a vision of saying this is

126really where we expect us to see these needs and what we want >> and forecast this and say look and then we're also trying to take care of the school by yeah we'll we'll have to instead of a 2% we'll have to go with a 3% but that allows us to say in 25 years we're not going to be coming out to you again for a hand you know another another referendum saying we need to build more, right? We we're trying to take care of those towns bond every 25 years. >> Can I just throw something something at you about that though? The people who are funding what happens in the town now are the people who live here. >> What you're sort of proposing is that the people who live here now are funding

127what happens in the town in the future, which in many ways is not fair. >> Again, I'm thinking of myself in the next 50 years, >> right? So >> that's you in 50 years, but that's not people who don't people who live here now who then will will be paying for your vision of 50 years from now rather than our vision for now, >> right? But >> I just want to throw that out. >> No, I I again I hear your thoughts, right? Everyone Everyone has different thoughts on how to do it. I'm thinking in 50 years time I much rather pay the $5 million now or $10 million, $15 million now than pay $50 million in the future. Right? inflation in things of building things are only going to ever go up. It's makes

128some amount of sense to try to get as much done as part of this referendum as possible as well as trying to take care of as many items that you could possibly I assume see by also thinking about what else do you need to do to maintain this this building. The building from what I understand is the from the 50s, right? There's bound to be more things that are left unexposed or not seen that >> I commend your vision of the future. I do. I I get it and we all want what's right for the community, but I would argue it's probably not the best use of taxpayer money to just increase the tax levy, right? Each month to this gentleman's point, right? I would argue this is what most districts do. To Mr. Chen's

129point, you usually when they retire debt, most districts will then have you will in 20 years. I don't know if I'll be on this board, but somebody will be sitting in this chair. [laughter] >> Except for you're welcome to join, >> but they'll be saying probably coming with a new set of projects. It's it's sort of unavoidable in most cases. We do put money away prudently for a capital reserve, but there's just no way you could save for all these types of projects that come up. those systems we put in will probably have I don't know I'm just guessing 20 to 30 year life and you'll have to repeat this cycle again. It's what most districts do again. You're spreading those those dollars out over 20 years and you're getting some dollars back in the

130state. I would argue that's a better use of the taxpayer money than just increasing the tax levy over that time. >> Okay. But but also, you know, kind of put it into perspective is that, you know, 2% is based on the revenue, how much additional money you can raise from the town. And so 2% for us on our on our budget is less than $300,000. $270, $280,000 of new money next year than we're getting this year. You know, Greg mentioned the health benefits. That's a $325,000 increase right now. So I have to balance a budget that allows us for 5% of the state aid company and and pretty much 65% from the local tax level. Unfortunately, that's the that's the environment we live in. It's mainly funded through taxpayers. So we couldn't do projects like

131this by just raising additional taxes in an annual budget. It's just not possible. >> Nor would I recommend that. >> It's helpless because I don't remember have the budget presentation soon, but last year what is our current capital reserve profit? It's not about $2 million, >> right? And and our entire budget is what 15 or 16 million. >> And so if you think about how much you can actually tuck away, >> it's not that much, right? Uh we're just we're not like a $80 million >> like district. >> It's there for those. >> Well, then you go 15 million and that's it. But >> it's there. It's there for a limited purpose for those contingencies where the boiler doesn't you know that we're talking about one one project. >> We have we have enough to

132fix things, right? like you $2 million will fix things and roof. We need that. >> Well, I think the roof are a good example. >> But you spent $2.4 million over the last three years repairing roofs that >> out of our pocket. >> Yeah. That we paid 900,000 last summer to get that we had to get, but we pulled it out of there. But each year we get an an extra two or 30 hund,000 from the taxes, but it takes three years to then replenish that 900 that we just spent on the roof. what we had to do. Uh, and I I would Mr. D like I don't even as not just a board member as a town person. I I don't want to raise the tax levy on the people on people in town.

133I just like we we can avoid that and stay within the realms of what we can do. Like I that's way it's way better. I mean >> we ended up in a bad cycle where the the district's debt ended during co we probably would have already had this conversation 5 years ago. It was a bad time as you can all imagine. It probably was. reading the room probably wasn't haven't asked for a referendum. Um I wasn't on the board then but I it makes total sense. Here we are now with the the needs. >> But what one example though and you'll see it more in the budget presentations. I've done it each year is that the board has been very prudent. So we have a 2% cap but with the spending adjustments that the state

134will allow us. We have the ability to go three and four and 5% above that 2%. But we've always chosen not to do that because we're looking out for the thing that Mr. just said, not trying to raise the taxes and living within those parameters. So, we couldn't live within those parameters and try to do some of those projects. And again, when we when we look at the budget, we you know, we don't, you know, skip out on maintenance. We have to take care of the maintenance that's important as well as taking care of the educational needs, but you only have so much in that pot of money. >> When you talked about the capital reserves, you said it could be paid for, you know, infrastructure and >> replacements. Could it be used for new

135construction or is our only option there referendum? And >> capital reserve can be used for new construction. You won't get debt service aid and you're going to pay. It's like putting an addition on your home and paying cash for it. If you have the financial means, great. But you know that addition is going to last 20, 30, 40 years. So to refinance, to get a second mortgage to make it viable to spend an extra two, three, $400 a month rather than $100,000 to put an addition on or whatever. So you can capital reserve is used for capital in addition any of these infrastructure project you can absolutely use it you miss out on this gentleman's eloquent point by stretching out 20 years whoever is new in town gets to contribute to that payment which adds

136to the value of their home >> I just have you know a couple things because I have to make recommendations to the board so you know it's not a bad thing to pull money from capital reserve for roofs I mean look at the buckets in the chip I've been bandating those things as much as possible. If if this goes to referendum, that infrastructure goes in there. Now, you're talking about November of this year. If you have successful one, you're looking at 2027. If there's a failure, the roof doesn't get done. So, I have to make recommendations to the board this summer, address that. We can't mandate anymore. So, you know, we've done those things. We've done some prudent things. We budgeted. We've done maintenance. There the life expectancy of a roof is maybe 20 years.

137those groups were already over that school was that that particular uh building was supposed to open on September 11th of 2001. So that's how old that and we we mandated it. >> Thankfully is if we're in that spot when you have to spend capital reserves is get passed you're not you're just giving that money back. So it's not like you're back into the savings account again. >> Right. So we'll pull it out and you're going to make those recommendations and then you know again if you don't use it goes into the capital. That's that's an excellent point. So you're not wasting the money you're not putting into the budget and saying oh we're going to spend it. We can put it right back. Again >> the demographic study that was done is that available to

138the public to see like what percentage are people that you think are going to retire out be moving out of town in the next 10 years or five years? Even if you're looking at five years like what is that population? We know we have a power population of people in town that don't have children in the schools. So like do you know the numbers behind that to know like where we're going to to try and forecast out where we think we're going to be? >> Well, as somebody said that the demographic studies so there five years. We've updated over the years. The last one was 2022. So the next projection would be 26 27. So actually had a conversation with a demographer today to thinking about some things that the board's going to need to

139do in the future with updating those plans. But you can go more so like x% of homes are 65 and older, x% of homes are 20. Like that concept of where we're at now because you can project out people over the next 20. Like that's the easiest thing to do. >> Anecdotally, I believe that there are less children like in the classes today than there were when my kids were here 15 years ago. It used to be like 60 kids per grade. Now it's about >> 45. So it's [laughter] >> there. It is online. But it seems it's trending. It's trending up. It's trending down. When I when I first got here, there were 530 students down to 413 and it's trending the other way. >> That presentation by the demographer came to the board

140meeting. >> Yes, he did. And it's there. >> I believe it's online. >> There was a video too when it came back. >> Wow. You guys record everything, huh? >> Yeah. video names happen everywhere in town. >> Regarding the timeline, what is the deadline for us to make a decision on the plan in order to make it for the November uh referendum? >> So, um if we're going to try to target the November election, the Department of Education applications have to be in on May 1. The So, we would need the month of April, two or three weeks or four weeks in April to really be able to get the applications ready. Um, I think if the board, to John's earlier point, the long range facility plan should go in a month before that, but

141there's no harm in putting everything into the long-range facility plan. It doesn't obligate you to do anything, but it is there so that the state can review it in advance because the state's resources have diminished. And I don't mean financial, I mean at the Department of Education. There used to be maybe 16 reviewers and I think they're down to three. So 600 counties or 600 school districts throughout the state, you know, being handled by a couple of people. So what we would recommend is if we're if we believe these are all reasonable considerations, then authorize us to just get them into the long range facility plan. I think we'd have to do some design sketches to at least or can we just put 10 up to 10,000 square feet in the >> Okay. So we

142could just so arguably everything we have right now we could input to the long range facility plan. So I would urge the board we owe John a proposal to do that but I would urge the board just to authorize us to put as much into the long range facility plan as possible. A it'll set you up for whatever you want to do. B it does not obligate you to do any project. I have districts now we updated the long range facility plan in 2000 and there are still projects sitting in there that they have never touched nor do they intend to touch. But it's a supposed to be a planning tool. Three, it will give you the option if somehow John has a windfall of money, maybe the the the the farm money somehow is

143now available and they send it your way, then because you have millions of dollars in the long range facility plan, you can continue to contribute beyond that number. So step one would be I would say, you know, ideally I think you have a regular meeting coming up at the end of this month. So, if we can get the long range facility plan authorization, that'll at least get us putting everything in there and then we just need some direction whether we want to talk about it publicly about what kind of guidance you want to give us to look at that 10,000 ft in its entirety, a portion of it, you know, give [clears throat and cough] us parameters on how much you think you'd want to present to the community. We can reverse engineer it. That

144would be good because then we can work on that end of February, March, come back, have a presentation, finalize some decisions, and be on track for the if you want to do a costfree election because it's part of the cycle. Does that make sense? >> Yeah. >> Which is an example, things have to fall into place. So the the long range facility plan has a needs. That's that's what it would face. needs PL, you know, long components that are planning, but if it's not in that plan, boilers are, but say the boiler wasn't in there, he couldn't even they wouldn't even accept the application because they're going to go to the the five-year long range facility plan and go, "Where are the boilers?" >> So, we're taking a we're taking a, you know, step forward

145now >> to plan for >> it's a proactive approach to give you the most flexibility. There's no downside to obtaining the wrong range facility plan with as much as you can. >> And I'm working on free for that, but but that's It's falling. >> He's working hard on it, but don't expect >> I still got lots of going through college. [clears throat] [applause] >> Okay. Oh, I guess we're done. >> All right. Thank you. Thank you very >> showing up for cancel. If you want to show up for a board member Excuse me. How you >> What's your name? >> Brett Winston. >> Okay. >> Five years now. >> No, I um was very >> I really feel like I feel like I know your name. >> Did I get you in there? >> No,

146I don't know. probably like why is it going here? Why is it going? >> So, yeah. So, we were >> nice to meet you Brad. >> Hi, Brad. >> Where do you live? >> Uh Birchwood right next to the Oh, are you uh >> I'm 52. So, you probably know my sister. Oh, there's a camera. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Join us to walk. She walks. >> Basil. >> So, you're closer to the church. >> I am next door neighbor to uh I wish I remember her name. >> Sorry. No, not yet. >> Okay, make a change and you know they had to put it again. >> Yeah, we're planning on doing that for the next meeting once they get a proposal. >> That will be an agenda item. You know, it's a small ticket item,

147but at least the next steps. Yeah, it's nothing for >> what's actually >> well the state you can elaborate that the state was it was a fiveyear facility plan >> 20 years ago >> 201 and and with the state in the state's gives it wisdom they kept promising that we have to update we have to update and it was the most recent one where they said we have to update it here >> so they they that fell through so what they gave districts the ability to do for this would be amendment to that original plan which was 2015 or something like that. >> Yeah, we can look it up when your last plan >> authorized. >> It sounds like it was quite a while ago. >> It was quite a while ago because they there

148was no mechanism to update that with the states you had to do it within the state software install. >> Yeah. And regardless of when it was updated, the realities are that if there are some projects that are even remotely being considered, they're probably not in there and we want to end. >> But the last amendment was the last referendum. Yeah, >> we had to do that to there was an amendment to the plan to >> make sure everything >> Yeah. Yeah. We put we put those projects in. So now it's a new project. >> What's that? >> Who actually updates it? >> They do. It's an updated application that goes down. >> No, I know the application. >> No, we'll we'll log into the software and we update with the project listing and a scope

149and >> all those kinds of things. >> Send us an approval letter that says your amendment is approved. >> Correct. And this way when we submit the application, whatever you choose to submit, they'll cross reference and they'll say, "Okay, boilers are in here and addition is in here." >> So they're just double check, >> correct? >> But that'll be at the end of the month at our >> We'll do that at the end. >> Yeah, we'll have the proposal so you can vote on the 25th and then that'll be good for us just to at least move this forward. But I mean, there's not an opportunity for you guys to get together in this environment. So I guess the question is based on what you heard based on our opportunity to go up to 10,000

150ft which will result in requirement of a parking lot. What kind of design exercise do you want to embark on? I mean I can throw a couple of concepts out there for you to consider. we could develop a concept that utilizes the whole 10,000 square feet and will address a variety of things and then maybe we can present a second option that has um you know something smaller that will have to coordinate with Ken or if you have some dollar amounts right you have a general sense of the financial advisor the numbers will be a little bit more because it's not eligible but at the end of the day if you have some concept of some kind of threshold that you want to limit to. Then we can reverse engineer those things. Or we can

151have a similar exercise like we did. Present two concepts, something smaller, something bigger, assign values to them, and then present them to the community and see the reaction. And then from that, you can decide which one, if any, to move forward on the educational bucket side. So there there are a couple of steps though that in between obviously the longrange facility plan and then the next big step would be that the board authorizes the architect to submit plans and drawings to the state. But before that we have to get a proposal from him based on what your scope is. Otherwise he doesn't know what he's >> March 18th was really our >> that's what I was backing into. >> Yeah. So I I just want to clarify what John said. the infrastructure projects are arguably

152there and it's either great we want to present everything you've shown us to the DOE or we want to scale it back or we want to add to it right that's that bucket number one you have a general sense of the evaluation so that I think is ready to go before we give you a proposal to do the DOE applications um the concept of developing some design work is what we've kind of been talking about. Then when we get through that exercise, we can give you some guidance on how many applications we would want to submit on your behalf. The state requires at least one application per school. So technically, whatever you tell us to submit, we can put into one application. However, the any educational project that you ultimately choose to go forward with

153will have an educational review fee from the Department of Education. So, we strongly recommend that that be isolated in its own application because the review fees are tens of thousands of dollars and you're not going to pay them on the infrastructure project, but if you lump $18 million into an application with other projects, you're going to be charged on the $18 million when you don't need to. Number one, the other good thing about separating them is it makes that very clean line that here are eligible projects getting debt service aid and here's a project that we know is not getting debt service aid. If everything gets lumped into one application, it becomes muddy and it's ill advised if you're planning on having multiple questions. I know that it was asked here how many questions you

154know I would certainly recommend consideration be given to two questions minimally um and maybe three if you felt there was something out there but um I think that at least affords you the opportunity to say these are a eight question this is not and this way if both pass great if one fails then at least you can say well okay you know we know we're not getting any good service or we are and that's what's at risk here so >> if you're asking for my recommendation some guidance on Greg, we're not going to do anything with that yellow space. Greg, develop it partially or fully. Show us what it is and show us the values and then LRFP approval and then we can come back through committees or to the board make a public presentation

155on whatever you tell us. And then I think we said by middle to end of March, >> March 18 >> to kind of commit to only submitting to the DOD. That's your first commitment. That's it. It doesn't commit you to going to referendum. It doesn't commit you to borrowing money. It merely says, "We want to see what the state comes back with." >> So, it gets the ball rolling. >> It gets the ball rolling. Then you'll get that back. The financial adviser can run real numbers and then you can decide, okay, we got all the applications back. This is what we want to present on the November ballot. If November is the target, >> so March 18th is like this application deadline. Can you still be working on designs? >> Absolutely. We do need scope.

156Look, I need to know >> if you have a dollar amount in mind >> or if you want me to explore everything in that yellow area and other stuff and then just come back to you with numbers. you know, we've been working on sketches and and looking at stuff in preparation for it, but obviously you have to vet that more thoroughly and and so it's it's not like we're starting from ground zero. But, you know, >> you're looking for guidance either square footage >> like we want to do 10, we want to do eight, we want to do five or dollar. >> And in either case, you're not committing to taking this to the voter. You're merely committing to saying, "Hey, we presented this on February 11th. We hypothetically took two options. We had Greg,

157okay, you said we didn't think we have any window of space. Greg, show us what you can design there. And again, we've already been sketching. So, you know, when I said to them, we'll be creative. We have a sense of what we can do. It'll have to be refined and vetted by you, but that's one option. And we'll come back with a budget and you'll be able to vet that and the community will provide input if you um talk about that. and then another option or you can say no we only want you to spend x million dollars on anything you do there and then Ken will have to prioritize what of the educational list we can get in and we'll have to go back and forth to limit ourselves to that dollar amount >>

158so from what I heard you have two choices right we could we come up with a dollar range or a dollar amount and work within that >> personally I find that too limiting I I think it's just narrowing the creativity of what we can use in the space but what I would like to see This is just me and I'm uh curious with everybody else is to see what can we do if we make full use of the space and what if we use we should come up with a percentage 20 30 40 50% of that space and what do those look like? I'm not saying you have to do five, right? We need to come up with probably two options. >> I was thinking exactly the same thing. The full thing. >> Yeah. [clears

159throat] Do we want to go half? Great. I mean >> 40% and see what that looks like and see what those I'm opening it up. You're thinking like potentially just two plans to compare or whatever they >> I mean ultimately like three or four, but I know time is of the essence and we're probably going to drive, you know, break nuts. >> Can I I'd like to actually cover it just a little bit different. Like I I would I would suggest let's do the full thing with with the whole plan. I would more so instead of even a percentage cut off, I'd rather look at what can really like what's the like. So if it's like >> y >> I want four instructional classrooms. That's the bare minimum. Okay, maybe that's 30%, maybe that's 60%.

160>> Like the non-negotiable. >> Yeah, I'd rather get the whole thing. We get everything. And if I had to, I need four >> small group instructional spaces. They have to be on whatever. And that whatever that is, I want to see that. And so then you have to >> I'm good with that. >> And I don't know if it ends up being 20, 40, 60. >> Well, and that would be driven by Ken to say, >> yeah, how do we get most of these people out of window spaces or how do we do this? and then >> balance it against the full use and see what they come out. What's the cost? >> that you have your like non-negotiable list >> and also can is there any since we already vetted the other space behind

161the school, you know, during the last referendum, can there be a combination of like you could get two windowed classrooms back there, you know, which, you know, there was going to be storage. have two windows classrooms that frees up, you know, that but you use storage space, you know, as storage space again here, but that could, you know, make the appropriate out front smaller. It's still part of the 10,000 ft of course, but is there any accommodation that could be done? >> So, the answer is of course, always. Um, and if Ken says to me that non-negotiables are one or two classrooms, that might be a good viable option because then we don't have to spend money on the parking lot replacement, right? I would probably recommend building in two spots because it's inefficient. Now

162you have a contractor that's got managing two areas on the site. Um mobilization disruption of the site. So if the non-negotiables, 1300 ft² you said 1500 feet. The lady here had the number >> 1,200 f feet. So you know if we said well okay the non-negotiables are three small group instructional spaces at 400t each. Well that's 1,200 foot. And if that's the minimum, I might come back with a design that put three classrooms out there. There are costs like relocating the sewer lines and other stuff, but you would eliminate the need to redo a parking lot, and that's a lot of the money that will be saved. So, I I wouldn't recommend doing both. I think if the minimum goes over 1,200 ft, we probably focus on just the front and then obviously developing the

163full thing and having you vet those sketches and those those concepts. Great. >> Is there also a Oh, sorry. Is there an increase in cost for those two locations or just inconvenient? Because if we do focus just on the front then we have the addition for the additional monies for the parking lot relocation the um >> the well right so if we do divide and conquer then just in and of itself we're going to be eliminating those costs but we I just don't want to lose that savings by just saying okay that's going to be um >> it's going to depend on how much it's going to depend on how much. In other words, if you tell me we need 1,600 ft², so you want to build 1,200 there and 400 out there, >> I'm

164going to be like, >> you know, it's it's it's a lot of extra work. Is it'll be less expensive? Yeah. I mean, once you eliminate a parking lot, you're saving significant money. So, I would say let us do our job and explore that and then you tell us what the priorities are and you're going to have a difficult decision, right? What is the bare minimum I can do without or do with rather and then we'll figure out where to put it. >> But I would say >> no go ahead. Uh Darkhorse suggestion you had made which is I know this isn't like the most desirable but we have softball and baseball fields in our town. If we were to expand the footprint there is that a cost savings because then we're not looking at parking

165or well or >> Yes. doesn't that you have additional cost getting >> so so what we've triggered is storm water so I have to we have to run that calculation because part of the beauty of doing unpavement and doing this parking is that part of the general rule the permit by rule through DP didn't trigger a massive above ground detention right because we were under a major development so we just have to go revisit that topic but if that's on the table just be prepared for the softball parents to be in Yeah, I think we need I mean like >> well they can use the in theory they can use RV fields and then baseball and >> that's still operational though but even for recess I'm assuming they use that for recess. So you're you're

166gym >> you give me yeah gym class. So you give me the parameters and we'll work will work within them. The last set of parameters were >> we have limited area on this site already for athletic fields. That's my big issue is if it disrupts that instructional time in school, >> but to Ken's point, I'm I'm with Ken. I think I'd like to look at both spaces if it reduces the disruption to the parking lot. I I know what you're saying. I think it's a fair >> once he gives me here's [clears throat] the minimum plus explore the full, then we'll be able to say how that plays out. I think is the back space the most you would do with 1200 square feet like last time or is there any form >> again there

167you start to disrupt the walkways we have the underground sewer line there is the whatever >> project fit area >> yeah so there's a whole bunch of stuff back there that again it's like the softball field you know how far do you want to continue to encourage >> giant field that's empty >> there are dozens and dozens of solutions let us do our Um, don't get too far in the weed. Give us some good parameters to work with and we'll come up with a good >> So, you need the priorities, you need the parameters. At least that'll give you some. >> So, it sounds like using the whole educational program. We're going to further develop any concepts that we've been thinking about for the 10 up to 10,000 ft. And then really, we need to

168connect with Ken to say, "All right, Ken, is it zero, one classroom, two classrooms? What's the minimum to accomplish some of the goals? maybe not all of them because it will be less expensive than you know developing the full 10,000 ft and impacting the parking >> and then you can explore some of these other potential options. >> Yeah. Yeah. that that'll be part of the minimum, right? We need the scope and that will tell me where I can put the >> It's part of the original envelope. When you renovate something, you get DSA. >> Say that one more time. If we >> So, so if you if you make windows in like an old part that's part of our old building renovated, you get debt service. >> So, exterior envelope is eligible for debt service.

169>> So, so if you build less and renovate something, >> if you build less and renovate more, you will increase your odds of debt serviceing. But just remember, renovating doesn't give you more square footage. >> Yeah. Yeah. It doesn't solve that. >> Yeah. >> So, back just keeping the calendar in my mind. So, if you're if you're even contemplating November, back into that because the board has to give you authorization to submit 1, two, three, whatever the plans are. The state needs time to look at it. Get what's that time frame between say March and for them to review it, send it back. >> Yeah. So, so my recommendation would be February 25th, we get authorization for the LRFP. We're going to pack it with as many things as we possibly can. Doesn't obligate you

170to anything. This evening, some authorization, which I think we've already started to get some consensus on, is what do you want us to explore? We'll immediately connect with Ken, we'll talk about what's involved in those exercises. Excuse me. I would say if we have to do it through committee and and smaller groups to kind of roll it out and then your next board meeting in March is >> 18th. I would say we'll come prepared to present if you want us to just like we did this on bucket number two. >> That gives us three four weeks on the 18th. >> So the 18th sorry Edward. >> No. So we're backing into this. So the 18th becomes what? >> The 18th becomes a presentation to the board >> on bucket two. >> Well um when's the

171next meeting after that? people unless you do a special meeting. >> Yeah, I mean we can we can we can set up >> smaller committee meetings to roll it out and then you can have a public dialogue as a group which is what you want and then I think it would make sense if you want to have a if you can have a special meeting sometime between the 18th and and the first week of April to say this is what we want to move forward with that gives us three weeks in April to put together the plans. Now, if you can tell us, look, Greg, um, and I don't know if you're in a position to do this, but if you can tell us we want to proceed with the infrastructure projects, then we can

172get John a a proposal for February 25th meeting to do the LRFP and to start developing the applications for that because we know that's going to go into one application. We already know that. Anything you else do, that would be a huge help because then the three weeks in April, we can just focus on any additional applications. >> That's fair. You can green light the infrastruure. April 16th is is the first board meeting and the 30th is the public budget hearing. So you have so you're early April. >> I know it's on your early April. That's the first meeting. >> So if you can if you you'll have time to digest the second piece and if we can maybe have a special meeting like this and I know getting out of your homes you know

173one more meeting is not ideal but you know we like at least three weeks to pull that application together because there's a lot to do. So we do March 18th here the presentation maybe similar format let's do what say I'm just kidding >> just bucket two >> and then yeah bucket two because we could green light the infrastructure before could even be on the 25th if we can drive consensus like the the 20th I don't know something >> yeah that's true >> the well we can do the infrastructure maybe we vote on if you do the presentation then we do a special board meeting first week of April >> for that because it's going to be on that, right? >> We have spray bright one. >> Spring break one. >> Wait, why can't we do

174the infrastructure prior to >> or why can't we do it on the February meeting >> or we's another it's that other presentation >> like if we have like something like actually see and look at and digest to even vote on Yeah. at the next meeting like why don't we get >> I've just seen things I can't remember. >> Why don't we get it before March 18th? >> Are we talking about the infrastructure or are we talking about infrastructure? >> Infrastructure. >> You want more than you see here? >> I mean I I don't have it. I I don't have it like you know. >> Okay. >> I've seen it but I don't have it. >> Okay. I mean we can give you the presentation and the cost estimate and give John tomorrow. It's going to

175be 18 plus million. It's not going to change $6 million. >> It's what you saw tonight. >> Yeah. Yeah. Now you know. Now it's public anyway. said that will happen. But I would I guess the same with anything else that we're expected to vote on. Like I want to see something before the meeting we're voting on. I guess like I I wouldn't want to come into a meeting and have that and say I'm voting on it. I want I want you to be the same. No, I mean like when we get when we get to the next thing like when we get to the educational piece >> the educational meeting >> I don't want to walk into a meeting and not you know >> I think they're suggesting we get it before the >> similar

176we can meet with the committees prior to the 18th >> you'll have things to take with you'll be able to review them 18th we'll make a formal presentation of the two options that it sounds like we're pursuing a full 10,000 square foot option and something that's minimum based on Ken's non-negotiables. You'll have that. You'll have that for the 18th. You'll have a public session, get information from the public, and then if we can have a special meeting a couple of weeks after that, then I would be asking you to vote on which of those or if you felt both were completely inappropriate, then we'd have to back the drawing board, but it might jeopardize November. >> So, if we get feedback like we need, you know, if we have to, it has to be a

177possibility. If we get feedback that, you know, to work with and we need to modify it again, we need we don't want to be throwing something, you know, in just for the for the sake of the deadline either. We have to >> Oh, yeah. No, I'm not. >> We're trying to go to November, but if if it's not ready, I have no issue in pushing this thing. >> Yeah, absolutely. Great. So, refresh my memory. So, the last time we authorized you to submit, what did the board have in hand? like that board meeting we're authorizing you to submit plans to the >> D. You had >> what did the board have? >> You had a cost estimate and what we called the scope document. So because there were infrastructure projects, there wasn't any design. It

178was a hatch plan that showed the roof areas that are going to be part of the referendum and the construction budget for the roof. So that's what you had for each project. It was nothing more than a hatch and a budget. >> So for the 18 of the >> So you'll have by the end of this week So the middle of the 25th meeting if they decide on the infrastructure they'll have something to chew on >> you by tomorrow. What's today? Wednesday. >> Yeah. By Friday of this week you will have for every one of the infrastructure projects the same documents you had last time. >> It'll be a scope document which will be a little 8 and 1 half by 11 sketch. It'll show the roof hatches. It'll show the unit ventilators in each

179classroom hatched. It'll show the windows in the up lower gym hatched. It'll show the arc room hatched. No design. It's just that this is going to be replaced, renovated, and it's gonna have a stapled budget for each project. >> Yeah, it was last time benefit of the new board. I just wanted to know >> and you'll have that so you can look at it. Pretty straightforward. So, at February 25th's meeting, if you can say great, please proceed with the long range facility plan and please proceed with preparing one application for the infrastructure projects to the DOE. That'll be a huge for us jump. Yeah. >> Because that we can get going. And then what we'll do is at the February, well hopefully today you can give me the parameters. We'll connect with Ken. We'll have

180a couple of weeks to start developing sketches further. And then what we'll do is we'll either do them in committee and leave handouts for everyone to continue to digest and then come to the March 18th meeting, present bucket two while bucket one is already being developed. Ready to go. >> I have a question though. when you submit the application for the infrastructure right which you're going to do first does it help >> what finish your thought sorry >> well whatever whatever package I don't I want to use it right whatever package you're sending for the infrastructure is that equal a question or can we combine >> it does not include >> okay I just want to make sure >> question he's just working >> I just wanted to be very clear I'm not convinced that

181we want to do one or two questions so I didn't want to be >> so so just to clarify we're not going to submit the infrastructure application until the second decision is made. So we'll have sitting on a shelf, >> but they're not going to be separate everything at once. >> So we're not doing everything at once. >> Correct. So number two is >> separate applications don't mean separate questions. >> Okay? >> But if we only do one application, if you say it, regret it, screw it. Put anything we decide for expansion into one thing, >> then it's hard to separate the questions because the DOE doesn't differentiate. Our application gets lumped together. So all the electrical value is for every project and any addition in one line item. So when they give us back

182a PEC letter or start talking about other stuff, it can't be dissected out. So it's always better to have more applications and less questions or more applications and more questions because it's easier if one question doesn't fail. Got it. >> I just didn't want to be held to that's what that buys you though is is you give authorization for that infrastructure part. They're already re reviewing it and it doesn't have an educational component. So that might be a quick turnaround. Yeah. >> Now you have numbers. You know what the state's going to give you in the TEDC letter. If I have our financial people look at it, then they could nail down numbers of what that would cost. >> Gotcha. No, I'm good. knowing that you have to separate them out, you know, for the

183efficiency anyway, for the, you know, for the um reimbursement, if you will, you know, versus not you, if you have two applications, you can either go two questions or one that, you know, you have correct versus, you know, gives you easy, you know, I'm good with I just didn't want to say, just for clarity, >> unless you direct us, which is an interesting concept, we weren't planning on submitting the infrastructure projects >> earlier than the second one, but it Oh, I thought I'd heard you say that. >> No, I said just the opposite. >> The opposite. >> But it might be something I can call down to the state and say, "Hey, look, how backed up are you?" Because maybe let's get that down there. Let them start doing it so that when we send

184the second one, it might be easier for them to review because they're going to know there's no value there. So there'll be less scrutiny as opposed to one they have to give. So we'll look at that. But I hadn't planned on >> So each application, they'll give you a PC letter on every application. You're getting zip. You're zero. So on the infrastructure project, you'll get one PEC letter for the 18 plus million representing hopefully 6 million. And then depending on what we do with interior renovations or exterior, we might recommend up to two more applications because if we're renovating spaces inside and repurposing them, you might get debt service aid for that. >> Yeah. >> That's what I was just trying to get to how backed up they are. They have one or two people

185reviewing these things. >> It's common. >> Yeah. How long did it take to months? >> Six months. Yeah. >> Well, let me rephrase that. um they have an obligation to get back in three months. It's their time frame that we're complying with, but they're the state. >> Understood. >> So, question for the script. If we get these documents by Friday, gives a little less than two weeks before the 25th meeting. Is everybody comfortable with that timing as far as coming prepared to vote on the infrastructure >> at the 25th? >> I feel comfortable on the intro. >> This is just the intro. Sorry the also voting into a package. >> Uh >> well the LFP is just throwing everything. >> Yeah. No, there's no commitments. >> We have another meeting before that committee meeting >>

186for committee. We have we had talked about the other day on the phone two March 2 and 9 but I kept bringing up February. Yeah, we're going to vote on the next Monday, but the 23rd we >> I thought I wrote that in the 23rd. We were going to >> We talked about that. We always talk about it. >> Should we should we tip? >> My point is I want to have I'm going to let go if that's okay. Yeah, >> I don't have an unders. >> Yeah, >> I only have the 23rd and the >> has 24 and the second >> because I said that there were two opportunities for us to meet and I said let's put them both on the counter. >> Yeah. >> All right. I honestly think the nine is

187too late because then we're like running right up against our next board meetings >> and you need two other commission too like not just facilities otherpril April 16th. >> No no no March March is the first one. >> So how finance should meet too and then I think >> if we do it on the 23rd and the second it does give us a little bit of cushion to not like everybody's you know under the gun. a good week. >> Sorry, the second. >> Sorry, >> you're talking about committee. >> Committ >> 23rd and the second and then after that you all gives us a good week to bring up the other committees. I think you looked at the counter. You said there were no other committees and that's why we decided >> to restrict. >>

188I understand that I'm just finance >> personnel meets on the 12th >> and policy policy is on the 4th. >> So policy is March 4th. First of all on the 12th if that helps. And then there went finance that >> is one recommended before the last board meeting, but that's changed now. >> Finance meeting run in tandem with facilities and one more committee to get >> coverage of everyone. We do it before the 25th, but that doesn't give you when we do that. We >> Well, we have to do the budget review. >> Yeah, do a budget review >> because we have now >> they just kicked back the budget. This is a whole different conversation. They just kicked back the budget uh governor's budget and state aid release, but they haven't changed when when

189our budget's due yet. >> So, for facilities, here's my recommendation. the 23rd and the second we may go have a big plan on it and then that gives time for you said personnel policy you guys would get a >> finance finance why we need >> committ whatever 23rd and the third if you're already going to build the 25th for the >> this is I'm talking about bucky too we're going to talk about on this meeting right >> does that give you time >> I lost where you guys were >> yeah We all over the place on that. So, if I could recap, the 25th is when we're looking to vote on the infrastructure, right? To be very >> LSP approval and infrastructure approval. And you'll have those documents by Friday of this week. They'll look

190exactly like the documents you had before and it will be exactly what you saw up on the screen. >> Okay. All right. Hold on. >> Y good. >> Is everybody okay with that? >> You're talking about February 2019. >> Correct. So, if we're talking about people reviewing those documents in committee, that's going to be >> Well, Ben made a good suggestion. We still [clears throat] wanted to see those documents. I know it's infra, but we'd like to see them and talk about them in committee before, right? We >> That's where the committee dates come into. >> I know. That's what I wanted. >> Policy program personnel. Those are on the 4th of March and 12th. >> The 12th 25th Yeah, >> we're the anomaly here where we need that. >> Yeah, we'd have to do

191a special committee to discuss those >> in the right but they can just vote on the meeting. >> I don't want to be the one person sitting down. I I personally like to have chances. >> It's not a bad idea because in case we have questions that would be go over them just even >> Yeah. I hate to rush hate to kind of like read a timeline and then be like, "Oh, wait. Why didn't we think about whatever we're going to think about?" >> And I agree with you 100% because there there have been a couple times where we felt rushed and we had questions. Uh we didn't have enough time and that's where we're in the position where we are today. So, we had to make an adjustment. So, I agree with you. I'd

192rather have a special committee meeting or few extra committee meetings so everybody can get eyes on it and then you can have side conversations. So I think it's well worth you know >> I think it's I agree with scheduling vacation. >> That's the problem. So the 25th is three days off coming out next week. >> I'll be here. >> Can we just saying >> can we get facility facilities finance and one other committee to meet before the 25th? >> I'mbody I can do a meeting person. >> I'm fine. long range because it actually doesn't need to be if they're only handful of having eyes on it. It's just a case. I would just like to look at it and if I have a response I'll put it in an email. Like I don't necessarily need

193to have a dialogue around it unless I feel like there's but but I kind of don't know until I see >> I if I see it and I say you'll have it this Friday through John. He can distribute it. If over the weekend people decide that >> hey three of us want to meet >> because we want to engage in conversation I'll make myself available. Dan will make myself available and we'll meet with those three people. Others may just say, "Look, I have one question, ask it. I don't need to be there." Others might say, "I'm comfortable voting this way." And so this way we don't have to try to create three or four committee meetings. It might just be a group of ad hoc. >> I'm fine with that. >> I'll be on the

194very tangent like for the infer projects like it's the same as last. I'm not going to ask questions on boiler paycheck. I'll probably take a look at what changed on the nurses thing. Where's sub like the things that changed I might take a look at, but if I don't have questions, I might be fine. I'm not going to ask questions. >> I like that suggestion. I think we go without committees if there are questions that we discuss. We didn't have finance on it. Financ Yeah, you can get rid of it because we'll have we'll meet with facilities. >> Yeah, >> that's >> I still think facilities should be in the 23rd to >> No, I agree. >> We'll get together. Well, that's why I suggest just letting you get a spin. That way it's a

195program. If you have those two >> then we'll I'll get with you on the chair program. >> I'm on program and finance program. >> I'm program. >> There's always you're going to have to have three committee meetings. It's just if you do four and four, you got one lock down. >> But I I'm around. I I It's just phone call or meeting for that. Is everybody cool with that? Then weighing in either over email or if you really need to help me to meet you also that and then Greg and team >> it sounds like I think Barry was having a suggestion where he's not comfortable with that because if we all want to meet >> Well, you got you have the facility a chance to hash it out but the rest of us don't

196have that. >> Are you going to program to >> what if facilities meet and it's an hour meeting and everybody's good with it and then somebody steps out of the room? But we're we're already gonna have a problem with them because the facilities committee meeting is on the 23rd. It's only two days before. So it may worthwhile for us to meet with facilities >> earlier. >> You can do it whenever after >> we'll get the stuff on Friday. I mean just >> virtually literally anything. >> Yeah. I mean like I'm around all whatever weekend >> facilities I need Friday. >> Just Friday >> after you have the materials. >> We have double time. Yeah, depending on when do you on Friday would we have the material? >> It have to be early. What time did

197you leave? >> No, that's that's a different I have another this Friday. >> Calendar next week. >> Are you here? How old is this right now? In the morning or >> I'm here. I'm here this next Friday. >> No, but but this Friday >> we need you on the 13th. >> So if they meet on Friday, can finance and program meet next week? I will schedule I can meet around >> maybe we'll get the material soon Friday afternoon >> Monday is President's Day. It'll be either Tuesday through Friday. >> Yes. You said the 13th. Grace. >> I'm sorry. >> You said 13. >> 13 in the morning. The afternoon can't be in the evening. >> We get the education. We just put the same thing. At least it can do it. >> I don't think

198we'll have it till morning. Can we do it on the 17th instead of the 13th? [clears throat] >> That Tuesday. >> We're talking about facilities. >> Yes. >> I'll be here. >> 60. >> You're the on the 17th. >> Okay. >> Let's do the 17th, please. >> And then what time? >> So, may I suggest on the 17th that we do um >> I'm thinking we could do this. Follow me. >> Lunch time again. >> What's that? >> Launch time again. >> Noon. Sure. >> So, is this taking place at the 23rd? I don't think so. >> This is just going to I I think I'm thinking maybe half an hour. >> We need a full on program meeting outside of this. So, this will be included. >> My suggestion we want to do it

199that week since they're meeting on the 17th would be the 18th. Is that program virtual or anything? >> I'm fine with either I can do virtual. So, >> um >> the 17th and the Tuesday. >> Yeah, Tuesday. You cannot. >> Okay. How about Wednesday? >> I have a department. I think it I don't even think it's going to be I think half hour honestly >> we're just discussing just documents we're hitting right >> one out the 18 for facilities >> you're think it's going to be just bucket one >> it's just bucket one let's stay focused we have now >> 17th is no >> program >> 17th is no good for right >> okay >> is facilities okay with the 18th >> yeah Yeah. >> Okay. >> Wednesday the 18th. Facilities 12 to one. >>

200Ben, Christine, Grace, John, Lauren, >> Greg, >> Dan. >> Yes. >> For the 18th. >> Yeah. I'm available. >> Google talk. >> Google me. >> Okay. >> I'm inviting you all right now. >> Okay. >> And then while he's doing that, will the 19th part or not the pre program for those who are on the program? Um, I could do I unfortunately I'm actually Well, I could do the noon as well if you wanted to do a a Google Meet or I could do later. But if noon works, I know there's no >> I can't do noon. >> Oh, no. There's school. There's kids in school. So, that may be difficult for anyway because there's kids. I was thinking if noon works, it's just for kids. >> 17. >> Yeah, you guys could be. You

201don't have to wait. >> That's right. That's good. You have a 17. Greg can't do 17 at noon. You guys can do it in the morning. >> I can do it in the morning. >> Or settle down. >> Is he attending 28? >> I'm losing your dates. I'm sorry. >> On the 17th and you're not available all day or >> different. >> 17th. What time? I I have commitments that start at 10:30 and will probably take me till 12:30, 1:00. any possibility to do it before after the 12:00 facilities meeting on the 18th. >> So Greg's class here was >> Oh, no. >> But that would be he hangs off from one indust. >> Are you sending me? >> I'm just popping up on my phone. [laughter] >> The facilities are done. Are you >>

202so I I have to say, but I'll work between >> 1 p.m. on the 18th program. >> That's mean infra plus or actual program. >> Yes. >> I could bow out of that one and there you could go on that. >> Someone's me. >> Yeah. >> What do you >> Oh, you're not on board. Oh, >> I was just about to say where do I come in? >> Hold on. I have I I have a solution. Uh Ben is on facilities. He's also on program. >> Yes. >> So he in program I'll take I will skip facility >> and we'll have >> Okay. So >> you can take my [clears throat] spot >> and then who's on finance? >> I'm on who's up first. You >> guys figure it out. And no matter what you

203do, someone's going to be looked down if you do four four. >> Someone's going to be looked down. >> No, we'll have three committees though. We're going to do facilities program and uh what's the other one? >> So's not on any of those. That's why I can squash the facility. >> I'm not going to do the facility. >> Well, we're having any any strong watch >> and I talked to arrange finance >> and then honestly Ken can just give the feedback from the previous meeting. Exactly. >> Yeah. So, we've got >> two meetings. We've got uh facilities and program back to back on the 18th. 12. >> All right. >> The facilities meeting. Then you're out, right? >> Sorry. What is the type of >> step? Step in place of me and program at one.

204>> So very >> Ben was given out facilities for somebody to study. >> You're missing the fact we're going to be setting up a finance committee. >> Okay, that we're only >> have two. So just let's get the third set up and then we will have the setup done. >> So we've got two from 12 until 2 on the 18th we have two committees. >> Do you want to you chair uh of finance? All right let's set up a finance right now. So, we've got a third committee. >> Whenever >> 1 to two on the 18th at the very end, >> I sit on program and finance. >> You want to sit on program finance? You can swap for me on the finance. >> Okay. I'll swap with you. I promise you I'll do a

205recap. Just figure out >> Let's do the finance meeting. When's it what works for you? He'll he'll sit in my spot for the finance meeting. That's right. >> Doesn't matter who's where. Just schedule the third meeting and we can move for you. What works for you? >> Just not the 17th. >> Okay. So, >> 18. >> We already have two back. >> You can't. >> Have you sent a second invite? >> I'm trying to keep up here. >> Just just wait. Don't send anything yet. Let's just get everybody. >> What's a 19 >> for finance? >> 19 for finance. Is this Who's up on finance? Are they all good for the 19? >> No, but you guys can go. >> Well, when I can't I'm going to be at New York all day and then

206I have something with my superintendent. >> What about the 20th? >> That's what I'm saying. I'm throwing out. I'm not here at all. >> I don't know because I don't have my work calendar on this phone. >> Can you do uh can someone just I don't >> actually I would vote on it right now but seems like I don't >> why don't we do that just now there's three of us right here >> one of us will drop off >> it sounds like there's three people over here who don't feel compelled to have a meeting they're comfortable with everything then we can make it work so that means on the 18th You could just have people roll in to the back to back meetings on Google >> and then I'd be happy to review any

207documents on the Google Drive and like and then if the two committees find something happy you want to step in. >> Very simple. So let's just do two meetings at one somebody will jump in and h somebody out. All right. So the simple is there's only two meetings on the 18th. One is from 12 to 1. One is from 1 to 2. We will make it work with everybody that has questions. There are three that don't need questions. We technically have numbers that don't work, but we will swap somebody out to let somebody step in to be able to answer questions on a committee. We have enough committees to >> manage. >> Actually, it does. Well, but he's not on any of those committees. >> We have to swap. >> Yeah, I can't do facilities

208because you are meeting on the 17th. I will have them swapped in one. I'm sorry. >> Can you do it or you can't? I can I I can do 18 from 1 to two. >> So we can swap in. >> So he'll take somebody's spot on the Yeah, >> come to 12. >> I'll go anywhere. I just >> 12 and he's in one and we're good to go. Okay. >> Okay. >> And Okay. I And that sounds fine. >> Technically, um >> if I don't need to be Okay. So here's We have two meetings. >> Yes. >> 18. >> Both on the 18th. Facilities is first 12 to 1. I don't technically need to be there. Christine doesn't tech need to be there. So, >> but I think I should be there because of the

209chair. >> So, I'll put myself there. Francis, you had something on that day. So, you put it >> on the 19th. >> 18th. I don't know. I don't have that information. >> So, that could possibly be it would be Lauren Graves, Christine, your optional Francis, you want to check your calendar >> and Ben. Got it. So there's five that we can swap Christine for Francis if we need to move. Okay. Got it. >> Okay. So I'm going to recap facilities 12 to 1 Google meet myself Lauren Francis. We'll check calendar. Ben's back on that time and pass for Chris. Program right after 1 to two. Um Chris. It's you. >> Yep. I'm chair. >> Go there. >> Yeah. >> Jeff, is that you? I guess you're gonna step off. >> Do you not want to

210resume my recap? said I I have that calendar of >> facilities. >> Okay. So, is everybody clear on where they they need to >> Yeah. facilities. >> I have Dan, Grace, Greg, John, Lauren, and Ben. >> Dan, Greg, Grace, Lauren, Ben, and potentially Francis. >> I did say Grace. He's He's replacing you. substitute >> and if he can't then I'll jump on >> the mind. >> No, no, I have a little edit. [laughter] So disguise. [laughter] >> Where's your stamina? I can go like two more hours. Yeah. So program we have >> Chris Paul Jeff >> Chris Johnson and then >> and then Dan and >> so the thing we have to decide after this is parameters if we want to >> please bucket bucket one only >> 18 one to two [clears throat] >>

211it's going to be Chris Johnson chair and then Paul Jeff Barry send them the architect. So that's while he's setting that up we're good right everybody knows where they are. >> Yes. >> Okay. And the second question was the parameters on what to do. So I think you I think what we decided if I could recap on the educational piece was let's see what one of what an option looks like with the full 10,000 ft >> built up. >> The other one is the core needs. We don't have hard parameters is Ken will have to provide what those parameters are on how many uh small space construction spaces are needed. So he'll give those parameters to the architects company and they will go and provide option two. It won't be a moneybound option. We want

212to see what can work within those means. >> Then we need the same committees to meet again. >> Well, let's first have to >> let's get So for facilities for bucket two, how much time do you need? Like what would be the earliest we could look at those facilities? I would say that we can allocate resources so long as Ken can give me direction on the minimum within a couple of weeks. >> So March 2nd >> week >> March 2nd for facilities let's just >> certain two is enough knowing >> two,000 square feet. >> What do you mean two is enough? Two two options. knowing 10,000 square feet is going to be here and then >> facilities and program and then >> knowing knowing that the full >> the full 10,000 ft is going to

213be >> lower up here. >> Yeah. >> But Barry, I think what you're saying [clears throat] is look at the educational needs and they'll come back with a different >> down here. >> But we don't know. I don't know if it's down there. Maybe in the middle. Maybe it's 80%. >> Well, whatever. Where you going to be here and here? So that is just for Greg to get back to us in the time Ryan time frame so we can see it. To your point, we have to evaluate those as they come in. >> So So we're going to have the full 10,000 ft which is here and wherever the other one comes is here >> and that's enough options to evaluate. We'll know when we see >> well we can't have unlimited optim >> I

214be frank do you think we should have a third we should discuss that now do you think there should be a high medium and a low >> maximum 1000 be one >> and another >> okay so then I'm with you so then I need you to propose what's an option. If we were going to go in the middle, we'd have to give parameters to what are those parameters? Can I can I just interject really quick because I I don't disagree that we might need more options, but I think it depends on what the first because look, if it's full of this and Ken says I only need this and it's this and I'm saying okay well look 5% of the space like okay let's see like maybe it's more but if they come back and

215Ken's core needs are 95% of the whole thing then we have a different question for ourselves to say right so I think it depends on what >> what we see >> but just by definition we know there's the max 10,000 square completed. There's going to be something else. Whatever it is. Yes. Yes. Yeah. But but I think there's a gradient, right? Like if it's if it ends up perfectly being 50% of the space, it's kind of like you're kind of maybe that works, but if it comes up being like 5% of the space, I think we're going to say like what's the point? Well, but actually that might say we just do one question. Like there's other there's so much more that I think it depends on what the answer is. >> Let's say it

216comes back. >> Yeah. I I would say like >> So that's a good point. But I think it depends on what they come back with. Like then we can save >> center brings up a good point. If we're not really willing to go large, you know, he just comes back with small medium because we kind of we do kind of know what it's going to cost. >> That that's a really good point too. >> So why waste why >> unless you want to present it to the community and see if there's any taste >> I don't think that's a good idea >> for that. But well that effect >> I don't know if we could talk about >> impact though I think >> when it would be for classroom I just think that options at

217that time >> then you have this so then people are like so but how about this if we maybe you get >> but so but but conversely I mean >> the middle >> if that work has been large not large but the work has been thought about already >> do the small >> is there a marginal cost to presenting that as part of one of the options they wouldn't see us any money >> we kind of have a large right now right >> look we've been talking about the concept of developing a large >> so so you know we've already given thought to that and we've already figured out pieces and puzzle pieces so my recommendation would be if you want to talk about that further then vet it and present it and get feedback

218in comparison to something on the lower scale. But if there is a sense by this board that under no circumstance because look you have a fraction of representation >> from the community here that you're not going to get a real sense of what's going out there unless you share you know more detailed information after we develop bit further and do it. If you believe that there's a financial limitation to what you want to present, not whether they're going to accept it or not, then that would be one of the parameters we need to know because if if Ken's minimum requirements are $50 million, right? And under no circumstance is this board can present a $50 million, you know, second option, then forget it. Conversely, if his bare minimum is $10 million or $5 million, is

219that in your mind something you're willing to have a public dialogue about and then let the community say, "Hey, look, we had the architect do something small 10's basics. We had to develop the full 10,000 ft that we found and master planned it and here are the numbers." And someone might come back to you and say, "Well, we would support something else." for every person who says they'll support one of these options, there'll be another one that says they won't. So, this burden really falls to you and based on our time frame and wanted to take advantage of the November window so that you don't have to pay extra. My recommendation would be if we're going to go through these exercises, you got to present them publicly or give me a limitation because to spend

220time developing things further and then just say we're not even comfortable having a public dialogue about this because the budget came back too high. then then it makes no sense to me to invest that time. >> I would say go with the school in that case something that adds on I don't have the medium to it. >> Yeah. I mean if you do the simple math at 10,000 square feet, right? I mentioned to you we're budgeting $600 to $700 a square foot. That's just for the hard cost. Then you have contingencies and everything else, right? That addition alone is a $10 million commitment. Simple math, right? Then you have the parking lot, which is underground drainage, parking. That's millions, couple of millions here or there. And then anything that we move things around are going

221to be a few million dollars. So you can see that this is growing to a point that if you're not comfortable with those generic numbers, >> Yeah. Then say then please provide us guidance to say work with Ken on the the minimum and maybe a little bit extra within a X million window and that's great direction for us. >> But but the whole scope you guys are almost done. >> The the whole scope has been thought about it's been sketched out. We give consideration to it. So you know we would have to tweak it a little bit. I know that we would want to I don't know if you want to have a formal presentation on it. so that you can decide because it seemed like there wasn't appetite necessarily to go to that extreme.

222So that's what I'm just trying to understand. I think if you're going to present it publicly, you're not saying this is the ideal scenario. This is what we could do if there was an appetite for it. And you may know, you may not know from the limited audience in the room, but you'll certainly hear about it on Facebook from those that don't support it. But anyone that does support it will probably be silent. So, you're going to have to go with your gut anyway. >> And guys, remember, we're open right now. So, >> I know. >> Yeah. But but if but if you have, you know, thoughts about a financial limitation, then tell us that. But because right now, you know, I'm not coming back with a 10,000 foot proposal that is a million dollars.

223>> It's just it's it's >> No, >> we know we've talked about that >> what what the cost of new construction is, and that's new construction. [clears throat] So, >> what's the smallest footprint that I mean, what's the largest footprint you could do without having to change the parking situation or well? >> I don't know yet. I'd have to look at that. >> That would be a good question. >> The well is not a big ticket either. The well is a couple of hundred thousand, I think, to drill a new one out there and and cap that one. Um, and you'd have to do that no matter what because you kind of have to connect it to that entrance somehow. Um, but I'd have to look. I think park some parking spaces would ultimately be

224affected. So the question is do you just replace them or do you you know you just continue to park along the the curb and not make a formal parking lot because if you if you lose five you could argue that five can be made up along the front parking the way they do now. Now, it's not a gain because people park there now, but really, you know, if if there is a sense that there's a a financial max that everyone is is feeling like for whatever reason, you wouldn't want to go beyond, that would be helpful to know and then I can back into it to say to Ken, "All right, let's talk about what we get." >> So, redoing the well, you lose parking. >> Redoing >> or no, >> parking and the well

225are mutually exclusive. >> Okay. The the well will probably need to be replaced if we explore any addition out there >> because you can't build on top of the well. So moving the >> correct. I mean you can but you don't want some guy with a truck coming into your hallway to service the >> I'm just wondering how big of a um area we could build there. >> Until we put the paper well I can give you perspective is it if you know the art room door and where the entrance is by buildings and grounds that's where the well is. So you're really talking about a small >> Yeah. The the well has to be if we're doing anything there, the well is going to be replaced. The question is >> how big a footprint

226will can we take up without impacting parking so as not to do the investment for the additional parking. And the answer is I don't know. When you know like that guidance when do you need us to tell you don't do the grand plots just do the small >> right now. We're trying to maintain that schedule >> parameters now would be very helpful. >> Can I can I make decision? I I think regardless if we do the big one, whatever, I want to know the bare minimal what what Ken is like. I just need that one right now. Otherwise, like >> that that's the critical path. I need right now literally on the spot. >> No, no, no. He's going to he's going to follow up with Ken tomorrow. That's what I'm saying. But that in

227terms of a decision of what do I like Greg to do is that I know that project. I want to know what that is. Period. The other ones, I don't know if there's two, if there's three, if there's six, there's not that many. >> I need to know that one. >> Yeah, that's a good point. >> I need to know that one. >> Start at the base and then But if we were saying we already have the big one and we do the small minimal. Yeah. >> Why don't we then go for one that then incorporates where the storage was or was >> Well, that might be the minimal. That might be the minimum. I'm just not sure until he comes back. >> But then how much we could put there and buy the art

228room there without disturbing the parking lot which then incurs a whole different cost. >> Well, you have to know how many classrooms you need. I mean, based on the education, you have to know what you need. >> You know that it's just the teachers that are crowding the room price a minimum you want make up this place. Ken has to give us the basic parameters for accomplishing the goal and then we can try to lay it out. I understand the concept. It's the minimal amount that we can construct. Like I get it. So >> I think we just go with my suggestion is maybe one design. I'm not going to let the the deadline of November dictate this. We want to do it right. So, where I'm going is yes, I think we're targeting November.

229If the design comes back and it's not something we have to delay, we're going to I'm I'm going to delay. I won't sign off on anything. We're rushing, right? We're going to take our time. So, I think right now the parameters would be go off of the bare minimum. And I want to be very clear because we're in open. The bare minimum has concessions. It's not the ideal. They're different. So, I just want to be very clear, right? I think we're all good on that. like we're we're making concessions to get to the bare minimum but to be to make best use of the taxpayers's money to be you know good stewards we want to look at all options so I think >> I think bare minimum solves today's problems >> yes it may not

230solve tomorrow's problems to to the >> is the following a reasonable proposal >> if we connect with Ken to find out the bare minimum may not be optimal but look What can we really do on the low end? And we know that expanding 10,000 ft, moving a parking lot is going to be expensive, but we can finalize those concepts that we've been thinking about and talking about as a full 10,000 ft. And we'll just send them to John or the board to look at. You'll have a low and a high. You'll be able to determine what direction you want to go and then you can discuss at one of the public sessions that look we got the big one and we've not even present it to the community in this engagement because it's so expensive

231that we don't even want the the dialogue to get distracted. So, we're looking at a smaller one. And based on the smaller one, it's reasonably priced out. Now, we've asked Greg to go back and expand upon it a little bit by a couple of dollars because we think that a threshold can be pushed a little bit and get an extra two classrooms or an extra three classrooms or whatever. >> That's exactly where I'm going. >> I think we just need to see the >> Can we agree on that before 10:30? >> Yes, I I I agree on that. That's right. >> That's the critical path. I just and if it takes us longer, it takes us a little longer, but we'll get it right if we get the right >> correct. And then you can

232choose. Yeah. >> Hey, you know what? Let's let's take all the options to the public in these sessions or you know what, we got our professionals to give us guidance. We as a board don't have consensus on moving that forward. So, we're tableling that. We're going to focus on these other help and we'll really >> Yeah, I think I think we're trying to solve a lot of hyper. You're getting the small and the large and you're going to look at the values there and look the small one might be more than you want to spend. >> Small might be medium. That's my point. It's like I just don't know what it is. >> Agreed. Let's see what it comes out. >> I think we're solving for hypotheticals. Like that's why I just wanted to say

233a small. >> No, and a large based off of that we'll adjust. >> Correct. >> We will pivot. >> Yeah, but a bare minimum might be small or small. There could be a medium. >> We don't know. >> Stop saying I'd like to see a medium. See them all at once and just get it over with. >> Well, we need we need to see the brackets first before we know. >> I think that driving it by cost rather than by need is not the right paradigm. >> No, but but that's what we're saying. We're driving it by, not by cost. >> So, I would agree with that. Yes, we're driving it by. I don't know if that's small, if it's medium. It might be almost all. I I don't know. I just need >> kind

234of run through that extra really quickly. >> Like I think that's Let's solve that. >> [laughter] >> Let me rephrase that with all due respect. You can run through the exercise. I don't need to be here for it. >> I mean, it's 10:30 like digest all this. >> You can think you have parameters and then Ken, you can >> I'll connect with Ken and then we'll be good. Yeah, >> solve for that. >> Next decision >> because I think we could sit here for the next week and we'll talk. So far it's all hypothetical. >> Have we made all the decisions? >> Yes. >> All right. Just to recap, if you did not get an invitation from me >> just to go through this >> the facilities once again, Ben, Dan, Francis, Grace, Greg, John,

235and Lauren. Right. That's it. >> If you want to add me to it, if Francis can't make it, I will make it. >> Okay. But if you already did it, then >> it's either or. >> Both don't need to be there. It'll be either or. >> Okay. >> And then it's one o'clock. We have >> program Barry, Chris, Dan, Greg, Jeff, Paul. >> Yes. >> Okay. If you did not get an invitation from me and you're supposed to, let me know. >> I'm good. >> Okay. >> You're going to add Christine. >> Yeah. Do we have any business? >> No. >> Okay. >> No. >> Something else to talk. >> So, may I have a motion to move to [laughter] motion? >> Johnson's move. Mr. Chair, second >> some point. >> All those in favor?

236>> I meeting ends at 10:28. >> I'd like your Yeah.