001Gowanda IT: All right. You're good to go. Yeah, excellent. I'd like to go ahead and call the meeting to order. Gowanda IT: but I get a consideration E2 Gowanda HS Library: Who's second? E2 Gowanda HS Library: It was my mic. We should be good. Second, all in favor. All right. So that'll get us right into our 0 emission transition report. Good evening, everybody as well awaited. A while ago E2 Gowanda HS Library: Wendeville architects had been commissioned by us to do E2 Gowanda HS Library: 0 emission vehicle, transition study, and part of that is a requirement. So we can basically apply for EPA grants. So on. So forth. E2 Gowanda HS Library: of course, gives an idea of what that transition may look like going from a basically a Diesel powered bus fleet to electric
002one. So that's about where I'll leave off. Introduce his team up there. He'll take it from there share the E2 Gowanda HS Library: 30,000 foot view of the board, and hopefully he has some questions for him, and E2 Gowanda HS Library: we'll get the process started here. So Brad, thanks for joining us tonight and turn it over to you. Now. I can't see anybody else on screen, so I assume you're solo E2 Gowanda HS Library: just because they're not talking yet. E2 Gowanda HS Library: There's 3 people here. Yeah, I can change the view if you like. E2 Gowanda HS Library: Yeah, I see you on their business. E2 Gowanda HS Library: There we go. Oh, there we are. There's Katie. Hi, Katie! John! Hi, John! E2 Gowanda HS Library: Hello! E2 Gowanda HS Library:
003Thank you. Katie Eckam: Are we ready for me to start sharing? Then E2 Gowanda HS Library: Yes. Yeah. Katie Eckam: Perfect. Katie Eckam: Okay. E2 Gowanda HS Library: And Nyserda did pay for the study, so we didn't actually pay for the study. So Katie Eckam: That is a big part E2 Gowanda HS Library: Okay. E2 Gowanda HS Library: so I will have John start us off. Feel free to let us know if you have any questions. We have a lot of slides here, and we will have an open Q&A at the end of this. But if you need further explanation on anything, feel free to to stop us, and let us know John Havrilla: Good night. Good evening, everybody. I'm John Hevrilla, and what we wanted to go through is just an introduction of the
004Wendell team, a little overview of the New York State 0 emission vehicle mandate. What the scope of work was that we were commissioned to do, and then get into some details as to what we learned about the bus routes, the utility requirements, and then the phasing cost, phasing plans and costs that we developed to develop the roadmap John Havrilla: to a future state of 0 emission vehicles E2 Gowanda HS Library: So who's who's with us today is myself, John Havrilla. I'm the principal in charge. I'm the director of alternative fuels John Havrilla: And I'm responsible for anything at Wendell that is not John Havrilla: include gasoline or diesel. So compressed. Natural gas, propane, electric and hydrogen fuel John Havrilla: are areas where my expertise is is Katie E2 Gowanda HS Library: Katie Eckham. I've been
005at Wendell for about 8 years now. I was the project manager and main point of contact throughout this project. And I've just been an energy engineer at Wendell in my time. Here. E2 Gowanda HS Library: I'll hand it off to Brad. E2 Gowanda HS Library: Hey? Everyone Brad Flanagan. I'm an energy engineer with Wendell and I was the technical lead for this project. Good to meet you. E2 Gowanda HS Library: So just a quick overview of Wendell Wendell's been in business John Havrilla: About 85 years. Now we're celebrating our 85th year anniversary. This year. We have over 300 employees now, with 15 offices across the country. We're an architecture, engineering energy efficiency and construction management firm. We do have a specialty in transportation, including transit as well as K. Through 12 school buses, and with
006a strong focus on alternative fuels. John Havrilla: The little Wendell Logos are where our offices are located and the shaded States are the States that we're licensed to do business in. John Havrilla: So the 0 emission bus mandate, as you all may be familiar with states that by 2027 all new school bus purchases need to be 0 emissions and 0 emissions means no tailpipe emissions at all, and only 2 types of vehicles today meet that classification, and that is battery, electric and hydrogen fuel cell. Unfortunately, hydrogen fuel cell E2 Gowanda HS Library: School buses. So the only option that districts have right now is a battery, electric option, requirement John Havrilla: And further, by 2035. All school buses on the road need to be 0 emission. The New York State energy, research and development John
007Havrilla: distance the school districts to help navigate this. John Havrilla: They engage us and are our partner on these studies with multiple districts E2 Gowanda HS Library: To be. John Havrilla: I did want to point out that Wendell's role. Wendell is a independent advisor, technical expert. John Havrilla: We have. Our role is really to advise you as to what these vehicles can and cannot do E2 Gowanda HS Library: And you know we're laying out what they can do. We're laying out what the costs are E2 Gowanda HS Library: and hopefully preparing you for the decisions that you have to make to meet these mandates John Havrilla: And I'll turn it back over to Katie to go through the scope of work Katie Eckam: Thank you. Katie Eckam: So the scope of work of this project.
008This project was a clean Green Schools initiative project, which means that it was 100% funded by Nyserda through the program that John had mentioned. The scope of work of this plan. And this project consists of these 8 tasks that you see here project and status meetings where we met with the district throughout the Katie Eckam: the difference Katie Eckam: casts and phases of this project data collection, where we received existing route and bus information. So route start and end time when they leave and come back to the bus garage. The route mileages of each of those routes, the existing bus type. And then we use that information in our route analyses which Brad, our tech lead, will go over in a little bit more detail in just a second. Katie Eckam: But basically, that is
009where we are determining what is feasible. And if it is feasible, what bus size is needed. And then the charging strategy which basically shows what these buses would look like charging on a real day. Katie Eckam: we were able to determine a peak demand from that which leads us into the utility analysis, where we showed projected loads with the utility which is nice in this case, and received feedback from them. E2 Gowanda HS Library: We then performed Task 6. Which is the concept, development and phasing plan which showed what all of this equipment would actually look like in your existing bus garage and parking lot area, and came up with a phased approach to implementing all of this in within the mandate period. E2 Gowanda HS Library: For each of the phases. We also provided
010a cost, estimates Katie Eckam: And all of that was included in that final task. The final report. Katie Eckam: I will hand it off to Brad to kind of go over the row, analysis and the result Brad Flanagan: Yeah, thanks, Katie. So a couple of those tasks that Katie just went through. One was the route analysis and to kind of summarize that we take the information that you, as a district provided us in terms of the existing Bus fleet. The existing routes E2 Gowanda HS Library: So times the distances, and we put it into our models to Brad Flanagan: Anticipate what battery electric buses on the market today can complete those routes. Brad Flanagan: A couple of things to point out. Here we are conservative with our approach to this. This is one of the
011the biggest questions we get is, can E2 Gowanda HS Library: Yeah. Brad Flanagan: Will these buses be able to complete the routes on the worst day of the year, when it's extremely Brad Flanagan: cold, when the heat's running at full capacity Brad Flanagan: when the bus is full with children. So that's the day that we're designing for. And in addition, we add in other safety factors as well. Brad Flanagan: we E2 Gowanda HS Library: Assume. The bus has been degraded to 90% of its original capacity on the battery. We Brad Flanagan: Use, best E2 Gowanda HS Library: Practices for charging, not going below 10% or above 90% of the battery Brad Flanagan: And then other safety factors in there as well, and anticipation for Brad Flanagan: changes in your routes going forward. Brad Flanagan: Really,
012the main takeaway is when we tell you that a bus can complete the routes we want to be able. We want to be confident in it, and that's what we are E2 Gowanda HS Library: Bye. E2 Gowanda HS Library: I have a question. E2 Gowanda HS Library: Yep, E2 Gowanda HS Library: Does this include the heating of the interior of the bus for the students Brad Flanagan: Yes, this does. So. This accounts for Brad Flanagan: As I mentioned, we're looking at coldest, coldest month of the year. So we're looking in January, and this accounts for full heat as well E2 Gowanda HS Library: Okay. Brad Flanagan: So here you can see a summary of our findings from this analysis, so of 20 route Brad Flanagan: buses that we looked at for the district, we determined
013that 12 of the 20 Brad Flanagan: could be completed by existing buses in the industry today. Brad Flanagan: which obviously leaves 8 buses that cannot. 8 buses that cannot be converted to complete Brad Flanagan: their routes as of today. Brad Flanagan: In the table in the middle of the screen here you can see the actual types of buses that we're recommending, and the battery Brad Flanagan: based on those the last Brad Flanagan: line there being those 8 buses that cannot currently be completed. Brad Flanagan: Next follow up. Question is most likely. What do you do about those buses that cannot be completed? E2 Gowanda HS Library: Up. Brad Flanagan: Which the suggestion at this point would be that the industry is changing and evolving quickly and Brad Flanagan: larger bus sizes we're seeing come available,
014you know, by the month. Brad Flanagan: So the and we'll get into a little bit more later on. But for those buses we would recommend waiting until later in anticipation of larger bus sizes coming available Brad Flanagan: at the bottom of the screen. Here you can see the a summary of the chargers being recommended as well. So we actually take all of the data that was provided to us, and we model it on an hour by hour basis for an entire month. E2 Gowanda HS Library: Oh! Brad Flanagan: And one of the aspects we can gain from that is what size chargers do we need, based on the amount of time that is available throughout the day for buses to charge. Brad Flanagan: So this bottom table shows you a summary between of the different
015charger sizes between 24 kilowatt and 180 kilowatt, and how many of those are being recommended Katie Eckam: And I just would like to reiterate with those buses that we do not believe can be converted to battery electric buses today. That is our main finding with those, the feasibility of them is that they are not feasible to be done by battery electric buses. Today, however, for the sake of our project we will be, we do carry those buses throughout the rest of it in terms of projected load, projected costs. Katie Eckam: chargers needed for those. So those are carried throughout. Conservatively, however, we do not recommend in our study splitting routes, adding buses, anything that would change your operations in a large way, such as that. So for those again, you will just see no current
016replacement. Katie Eckam: and I'm trying to get to the next slide here. But it's a little frozen ago. Brad Flanagan: And so here is a summary of those buses that Katie was just talking about those 8 buses that cannot currently be completed. So within the report we we discussed the minimum bus sizes that would be required for those so as buses continue to come to market E2 Gowanda HS Library: You can, and assess if a large enough bus is available, it's actually. E2 Gowanda HS Library: and I could take it over from here Katie Eckam: So E2 Gowanda HS Library: Moving on to the utility requirements section of this, based on the results of our route analyses we were then able to plug. E2 Gowanda HS Library: That was Katie Eckam: Buses and charger sizes
017into our hour by hour model which we were able to pull a peak demand from. So basically that middle of the day when the buses would all be returning and charging all at once. What is going to be? The demand occurring at that time? Again, within the worst case day. So we take the month of January. Coldest weather, worst efficiencies. What kind of charge is needed on those days at those times? Katie Eckam: So we determined the peak demand of approximately 792 without demand, reduction, and approximately 700 with demand reduction demand reduction being that the charge management system in place would only charge the bus to what it would need to be to complete your second route. So your Pm. Route E2 Gowanda HS Library: The first, st Katie Eckam: This one, you see, the
0187 92 would be charging that bus to its full capacity during the middle of the day, if possible or as much as possible. This is just a nice visual to be able to kind of see what that percent reduction in demand could be with that those strategies in place. Katie Eckam: So these share were shared with Nyseg, and it was determined that the district will need a new 480 volt. 3 phase service fed from a 1,000 kva transformer. The 4 80 volt. Service E2 Gowanda HS Library: That is. Katie Eckam: Needed for the chargers that we're recommending, which are all fast chargers. Katie Eckam: It will also require a new 1,200 amp switch gear to feed different switchboards, feeding the chargers throughout E2 Gowanda HS Library: Do you Katie Eckam: Utility, determined that they do
019not foresee any issues providing this capacity at a feeder or a substation level, so they will need to just extend their existing primary, which is on an overhead fed utility pole currently to feed the new pad. Mounted transformer underground. Katie Eckam: Next was the phasing and cost. So we use Gawanda school district's current replacement cycle to come up with a battery electric cost procurement schedule. This is not a schedule that the district would be held to at all. This is just something that we used to kind of mimic what that procurement might possibly look like and be able to create phases based off of it. In our next concept plan phases. Katie Eckam: I jump to the next one. Our 1st phase here. It may be a little bit small, but these drawings are all
020in the final report, and in Pdf. E2 Gowanda HS Library: 4 min. Katie Eckam: Well, if you can zoom in. Katie Eckam: The drawings, show location of equipment, such as the transformers, the switchboards and switchgear, and the dispensers and kind of where all of the buses are anticipated to be parked Katie Eckam: phase. One includes a total of 6 chargers as well as Katie Eckam: fire protection, such as a new fire pump building and a generator E2 Gowanda HS Library: Okay. Katie Eckam: This is that same view. But E2 Gowanda HS Library: Flipped up. Katie Eckam: Side down E2 Gowanda HS Library: This is actually Katie Eckam: Probably the more accurate view with North facing up in this picture. But you can see we have a E2 Gowanda HS Library: Yeah. Katie Eckam: Location for
021a hydrant. So a risk area dedicated, which would basically be an area where we would recommend Katie Eckam: having a hydrant. And in the case where a bus alarm system is going off, or any kind of issues technically are found within the bus. Katie Eckam: you would pull that bus to this dedicated risk area, where it is at least 20 feet apart from any other buses E2 Gowanda HS Library: Okay. Katie Eckam: In case that it does go on to that next step of having any kind of issues or starting any types of fires Katie Eckam: also Katie Eckam: on. Here is our proposed fire, pump, location and generator location, as well as a new 6 inch water service. E2 Gowanda HS Library: Proposed to feed that generator and fire pump location from an existing
022hydrant. E2 Gowanda HS Library: I've seen Katie Eckam: Phase 2 includes 7 additional chargers. Again on the drawings. Here we can see the switchboard locations proposed, and the proposed location of the chargers behind the bus garage Katie Eckam: for a total quantity after phase. 2 of 13 E2 Gowanda HS Library: Yeah. Katie Eckam: And 9 additional chargers in phase, 3. For a total quantity of 22 chargers after phase 3. Katie Eckam: You can see that there are some charges being proposed in the bottom right hand side of your screen. That would actually be the E2 Gowanda HS Library: Northwest. If we had, it flipped over north. E2 Gowanda HS Library: Our time Katie Eckam: North direction, facing to kind of be able to have those buses charging off to that side over there as well.
023Katie Eckam: And here are our phasing and costs. Katie Eckam: So in phase one you can see the cost is a bit higher, mostly because that does include all of the necessary upgrades, including fire, protection, utility, service, transformer everything, infrastructure wise that you will need before you can actually start inputting any chargers themselves. Katie Eckam: So the remaining phases phase 2 and phase 3 are really only, including the chargers themselves, and the power feeds and distribution equipment needed for those chargers E2 Gowanda HS Library: Also included in these costs. Katie Eckam: That's all. Katie Eckam: Our escalation. Katie Eckam: Obviously. Katie Eckam: escalation needs to be carried as time goes on, pricing will also increase. We have equipment costs, labor costs, installation site work trenching any type of Katie Eckam: service that's needed for the
024equipment for the utilities or equipment on the customer side is all included in this. Katie Eckam: not included in these costs are the costs of the battery. Electric buses themselves, which will be on just the next slide. Here we do have them separated out as we are seeing Katie Eckam: wait Katie Eckam: volatile in terms of what is available, what bus sizes are available as they are coming up with new ones all the time, and those pricing is also fluctuating with those Katie Eckam: new technologies coming out. Katie Eckam: No, I go to the battery. Electric bus costs themselves 3 types that we are proposed Katie Eckam: based on bus sizes available can be seen here. These are estimated costs based on New York State ogs. Pricing Katie Eckam: are base cost, so these do
025not include any type of add ons for warranties. Special requests, wheelchairs, etcetera. Katie Eckam: It is just the base cost that you would see here, and then E2 Gowanda HS Library: Must be. Katie Eckam: On costs, I'll move on to grants and incentives. So in terms of State incentives for the buses themselves, new York State currently has a program called The Program or the New York School Bus Incentive Program. They are providing vouchers for the different types of buses. A, C. And D, Katie Eckam: you can see the base voucher Katie Eckam: listed, as well as a priority district bonus for nicer to listed priority districts which Gwenda would qualify for. Katie Eckam: There's also a scrappage bonus. If you do have any diesel buses that you would be willing to scrap all the way
026down to its frame and destroy the engine, you would get, provided that bonus as well, and then a wheelchair add-on. Katie Eckam: You'll also see I included a Federal incentive below. This is a inflation reduction Act tax credit of up to $40,000 per vehicle. The Federal incentives and grants and credits are currently being labeled as uncertain in terms of whether they will be available or not. E2 Gowanda HS Library: That's weird. Katie Eckam: I started has requested that we continue carrying them for now, but have wanted us to make sure that it's known that there is quite a bit of uncertainty in terms of these Federal Katie Eckam: incentive. Katie Eckam: The thing incentives, however, are going on as planned. Katie Eckam: There is no concern or uncertainty with its availability with any type of
027funding or grants, it will be continuing until the funds are depleted Katie Eckam: in terms of the chargers. Again, with the state program, the charging vouchers are under that same Nyp program. Katie Eckam: Because you did participate in a fleet electrification plan, you will receive the higher charging voucher amount of 65,000 Katie Eckam: for each of the chargers that you purchase. Katie Eckam: There is a 2 million dollars limit, but you are able to use a voucher for every charger that you have that will go along with one of your electric school buses purchased. Katie Eckam: There is another Federal incentive, with the same kind of Katie Eckam: you know, warning or credit, as stated before, with the Federal grants being a bit uncertain. But there is a 30% credit for alternative fueling stations available.
028Katie Eckam: and the last that we have here is the charging infrastructure, credit Katie Eckam: so engines, or the joint utilities of New York currently have the medium heavy duty. Ev, make ready program which is providing 90% of utility side infrastructure costs. Katie Eckam: And they are also providing 50% of customer side. If bus garages are in a disadvantaged community. I did take a look, and it doesn't look like that is E2 Gowanda HS Library: If applicable. Katie Eckam: For Rwanda, but it is available for districts that are thanks. Katie Eckam: And then our next slide here is schedule. Katie Eckam: You can see that we propose the utility, service, utility, design, and phase, one design to occur at the same time. So that would basically start with a work request to the utility to
029send them the loads and kind of let them know that you would like to get started on their side. Katie Eckam: which would follow by a design on their side, and then delivery of their transformer. During that we would suggest that you begin phase one design on your side, and sed reviews that would be followed by bed award and ordering of Katie Eckam: equipment and material. You can see the big lead item that we have here are going to be the switchboard and specifically the switch gear delivery. Katie Eckam: We have been seeing switchgear delivery backups up to 20 months. Katie Eckam: Lately. The past couple of weeks, I would say, we've seen this actually start to go down for the 1st time, which is great news. However, since we have still seen it being
030up to 20 months, we do want to show the conservative look outlook on what it could possibly be. So we do have that 20 month lead time in here, followed by 14 months of construction, and then finally commissioning Katie Eckam: right E2 Gowanda HS Library: So that is the presentation. E2 Gowanda HS Library: Thank you. E2 Gowanda HS Library: And do we want to go around with questions? E2 Gowanda HS Library: Sure, yeah, if there are any sorry. E2 Gowanda HS Library: Yes, I do have a number of questions there. E2 Gowanda HS Library: Basically. E2 Gowanda HS Library: my problem is, see, you've got 8 buses here that we don't know what size they're going to be. E2 Gowanda HS Library: But we're planning on chargers and the cost of them. E2 Gowanda HS
031Library: I mean, we don't know how big the charges will have to be to support those buses. E2 Gowanda HS Library: The other thing is that I don't see anything in your presentation E2 Gowanda HS Library: regarding the structure of our bus garage, and that the lifts that we currently have cannot handle. E2 Gowanda HS Library: We waited the buses. E2 Gowanda HS Library: Had a friend of mine that has a electric horse that E2 Gowanda HS Library: when they take it into servicing they have to clear a 50 foot E2 Gowanda HS Library: space around the the vehicle to service it. That's not gonna be practical for us. I mean, we don't have that kind of space to E2 Gowanda HS Library: in our bus garage to work on a bus that requires a
032large E2 Gowanda HS Library: fire prevention in our King area. E2 Gowanda HS Library: See anything in your presentation that talks about that, or addresses that Katie Eckam: So I can. We can start with the question regarding the bus sizes. Brad, did you want to kind of go into how we handled that Brad Flanagan: Yeah, sure. Yeah. So if you look at this page that's on the screen here. E2 Gowanda HS Library: Cool. Brad Flanagan: In terms of those 8 buses that we determined are too large. Currently. We do still carry those throughout the report, and we use the size that they would need to be. So this is anticipating that these sizes will eventually come to market. And then, using these battery sizes, we can. We can properly size the chargers that they will
033need once they do come out. So we are using those bus sizes and chargers throughout the report Brad Flanagan: in terms of the next question with the lifts. Brad Flanagan: we we do take a look at the lifts, and we've actually been on site. We've had our engineers on site to take a look at the facility, the sizing of the facility. As you mentioned, electric buses are slightly larger than your current Diesel buses. So that is something that we took into account. Brad Flanagan: I will defer to you, Katie. I believe we took a look at the list specifically. Here Katie Eckam: Yes, we did. I do not want to give you the wrong answer. So it was something like Brad said that we investigated, especially during our site visit and during our data collection
034portion. But that might be something that I need to get back to you on in terms of what the results of what those findings were Katie Eckam: That is, for the lift capacity only. We have not seen anything in terms of maintenance where the amount of area needed surrounding the bus would be any different than the area needed surrounding the bus. For your typical Diesel bus. Katie Eckam: The only difference would be one, the weight so obviously the lift would need to be rated at a higher capacity to be able to lift the buses which are substantially heavier than their Diesel counterparts. Katie Eckam: They are also longer in length, which was taken a look at just to ensure that they would still fit lengthwise into your bus garage, which it was determined, based on,
035you know, a high level assessment of your existing bus garage and the length and width of it, that that would not be an issue John Havrilla: Typical John Havrilla: maintenance of these buses is, you would maintain everything that you normally maintain on a Diesel bus tires, brakes, things of that nature. The batteries themselves. You would probably rely on the dealer if you had to get into the high voltage system, but you don't need any additional space around the bus to do normal maintenance on these buses. John Havrilla: We're we're doing these all over the country, and there's there's no special requirements for additional space for the buses E2 Gowanda HS Library: Oh. E2 Gowanda HS Library: okay. Next question I have would be regarding the weight of the buses. If we're looking at 8 buses
036that have additional batteries on them, they'd weigh more. E2 Gowanda HS Library: I believe it was. Lackawanna was running into a problem that some of their smaller bridges and some of their culverts couldn't handle the weight of the bus John Havrilla: The average increased weight across is about 2,000 pounds. It's, you know, it's not insignificant, but it's not that heavy John Havrilla: depending upon what vehicles currently drive on those on those bridges. I mean, if you've got a full garbage truck, then these school buses will be able to go over E2 Gowanda HS Library: Okay. E2 Gowanda HS Library: believe you. But that's well. We could John Havrilla: We can get you the date. We can get you the date on that, and the deep bus dealers John Havrilla: on that E2 Gowanda HS Library:
037Not saying about the way that you could probably give me the information on the way. The buses. I'm not sure about the load of the call cross E2 Gowanda HS Library: was dot reference at all, I guess, would be the question. Yeah, I think with some of the routes right? We have some E2 Gowanda HS Library: town roads that do have weight limits of, say, 5 ton or 8 ton or whatever. So you know, that would certainly be a concern E2 Gowanda HS Library: for the main roads. It's not an issue. But E2 Gowanda HS Library: and the kids walk to the main road. E2 Gowanda HS Library: Bye. There. E2 Gowanda HS Library: that's all I had right now. E2 Gowanda HS Library: Oh, well, if if hydrogen buses become available. And I mean,
038if we're talking about either hydrogen, fuel cell or Cummins is actually working on a E2 Gowanda HS Library: engine that actually runs on hydrogen. E2 Gowanda HS Library: you can look at putting a hydrogen generator generator that runs on hydrogen to drive your electric E2 Gowanda HS Library: drives on the wheels if that becomes available. E2 Gowanda HS Library: and we already have done the infrastructure cost here, I mean, that's just money down the drain, isn't it? John Havrilla: Hit John Havrilla: depends on how you would implement hydrogen if you were to shift fully to hydrogen, then that may be the case. John Havrilla: But in a lot of cases the battery electric buses will meet a good portion of your routes without any issues. The longer routes we're seeing is where hydrogen buses may
039become more important down the road. But hydrogen infrastructure is extremely expensive, particularly if you're going to generate hydrogen on site for hydrogen to become economical, we're going to need the hydrogen hubs that have been talked about, and that there's actually one being developed here in Western New York. John Havrilla: near Rochester, where you would have hydrogen delivered to the district and stored in a cryogenic tank on site. John Havrilla: But you know you could wind up with both a mixed fuel. You could have battery electric, you could have hydrogen. John Havrilla: but yes, if if you wanted to go to hydrogen, then a certain amount of the expense you would be making now could be stranded E2 Gowanda HS Library: I have a question for Doc, or maybe rich. Is there any concerns about water
040issues over there with the creek being so close to the bus garage. I know at least one time I personally seen the water come up. You talk about a pad mounted transformer. Is there potential for failure there. If we have a high water event. E2 Gowanda HS Library: that generator where Wendell's looking at the generator wouldn't be behind the bus garage, it would be up onto the field is where the baseball field is off E2 Gowanda HS Library: towards Panther Drive, but it would be that high. So it'd be in a higher area E2 Gowanda HS Library: and I don't remember if that area actually flooded E2 Gowanda HS Library: when we had the oh, 9 Flood, that would have been the E2 Gowanda HS Library: the the true test of that. E2 Gowanda HS
041Library: I just don't want to have any high water event. You know, we never know when that's gonna potentially happen. And we pour all this money into the garage at that specific location. And then what happens is our fleet down? Can't bus kids. E2 Gowanda HS Library: And I have one more question about the the data you used extreme cold. What about extreme heat. E2 Gowanda HS Library: What does the draw do to the batteries on that? If you have, you know, a 90 degree day. E2 Gowanda HS Library: as if you had somebody Brad Flanagan: Go ahead! Katie Eckam: I'll actually share my screen, because our presentation has a great visual on that extreme heat does absolutely affect anticipated range or efficiency. E2 Gowanda HS Library: Yeah. Katie Eckam: However, not as much as
042extreme cold, so you'll also be working at less efficiency, but it still won't be as bad as the ones that we used for our analyses E2 Gowanda HS Library: So I have a backing up a more basic question. Probably I should know the answer to this. But the fleet size that we're looking at? Is that all inclusive of our total fleet as in district? Or is that E2 Gowanda HS Library: just the fleet that we're actually servicing in house? E2 Gowanda HS Library: Everything? Some of the the buses that weren't that don't have a match right now are contracted. E2 Gowanda HS Library: So it's our entire fleet that transports our kids, whether it's ours or contracted. E2 Gowanda HS Library: So, then I guess the other question, or E2 Gowanda HS Library: may try
043to work this as appropriately as possible. But if our fleet sizes increases E2 Gowanda HS Library: to that size right like, if we increase in a different way, like if we increase like pickup trucks or other vehicles that we can utilize in our fleet E2 Gowanda HS Library: right? And we reduce on the buses, and the more astronomical priced vehicles does that still help us on the E2 Gowanda HS Library: meeting the objective transferring our fleet? E2 Gowanda HS Library: Can we like change that number or change that bogey where we need to be. E2 Gowanda HS Library: for a number of vehicles shifted over, you may change the number of routes or change the way we're routing, or like just straight change, the vehicles counted in our fleet. So if we give out like,
044we have a fleet technically, that includes E2 Gowanda HS Library: Van Truck. No, actually, the Sro vehicle is ours. Yeah, those those aren't in there that doesn't count for it's only the buses. E2 Gowanda HS Library: Why is that? That's what's under the regulation. I mean, the trucks are for buildings and grounds. E2 Gowanda HS Library: The trucks don't transport students E2 Gowanda HS Library: like, I said. That might have been something I should have known already, but I just seems kind of interesting that E2 Gowanda HS Library: it's only for the transportation transportation of the students and buses. It's not. It's not Rich's vehicles, it's not the lawn mowers. I mean, it's not okay. E2 Gowanda HS Library: I'll still be here. The only question I don't know if it's relevant to like the
045study that's been done is more of a general question the same way E2 Gowanda HS Library: they were talking about the maintenance on them. Does that require any any special training, then, for the staff that you have on hand. Right? Yes, okay. We don't currently meet. E2 Gowanda HS Library: And mechanics can't do that right. That's what I was. Okay. That's all gonna have to go through. You know, whatever company we get them through is the company that we would want them to go with and train on what is different? What do they have to change. How are they going to do this or that? E2 Gowanda HS Library: That's E2 Gowanda HS Library: a whole training program? And speaking to the contractor that we actually worked through right now with our buses, they have
046a whole training program that they would bring them in and train them start to finish them. Okay. E2 Gowanda HS Library: okay? So the only question I had with the design and layouts. I believe there was 2 extra chargers. Are those going to be. E2 Gowanda HS Library: or is that designed in a way that say a visiting school would be able to utilize them. Say they happen to their buses running low, and they're not going to make it back to their home district. Is it going to be set up in an accessible way to to where we could help out other districts Katie Eckam: So in terms of charger quantities. Yes, absolutely so. One of the reasons we do one charger for every single lot Katie Eckam: is for that exact Katie Eckam: reason,
047so even your spare buses will have a charger associated with them. Obviously that spare bus is not going to need to charge all of the time. So it's anticipated that visiting schools would be able to use those chargers in terms of accessibility. I think when we talked and we went over the plans. Those chargers that were on that outside lot were likely going to be the ones that would be used for visiting school districts, because they wouldn't need to park within the garage. Katie Eckam: But that's something to definitely consider during design operationally where how you would want those set up where you would want them. But there are Katie Eckam: systems in place with chargers where you would be able to meter that data and then build those visiting schools for it E2 Gowanda
048HS Library: Those are the ones that are across from on the on the map. They were across the street from the foot or the baseball field. E2 Gowanda HS Library: so E2 Gowanda HS Library: My last question, I guess, is, how much of this presentation or and report is proprietary, and can it be shared with, like our Assemblyman or other politicians to try and make our case regarding the State law. E2 Gowanda HS Library: John can answer that. I think, yeah, John can answer that one. Yeah. We talked about this, I think. E2 Gowanda HS Library: Oh, you're muted Katie Eckam: You're muted John Havrilla: The cursive mute. John Havrilla: We are currently talking with Nyserda about that. Wendell is fine with you sharing it, but this is also funded by Nyserda. So we have
049a meeting with Nyserda tomorrow. I don't see any reason why they would say that it can't be shared. I mean, they're basically taking the data from all of these reports, consolidating it and providing it to legislature anyhow. John Havrilla: so we can get back to you on that. But I don't anticipate a problem sharing this Katie Eckam: I think the only request would be that the appendix be removed. The appendix would have all of our in-depth calculations included which Katie Eckam: you wouldn't need to share anyways, so it would probably be requested the appendix just be removed if it is shared with anybody E2 Gowanda HS Library: Hi, everyone. E2 Gowanda HS Library: So I guess my question would be, is, what's the return on investment on this like? Is there any sort of actual
050fiscal return on investment or environmental. That's quantified Katie Eckam: Minutes report Katie Eckam: environmental. Absolutely, we do have a section of the report showing environmental savings in terms of Co 2 emissions. And I believe it's about 50% of emissions are being reduced by the switch in terms of Katie Eckam: return on investment. It is something that Nyserta originally looked into, including in these reports, however, the variability of all of it, including you know how much these buses are driving. The cost of Katie Eckam: the lifecycle assessment of these and the batteries, which is very hard to determine, because they haven't really been in place long enough. We don't have enough real world data on these buses. Katie Eckam: So I think one of our concerns as an engineering company would be. We like to be
051very Katie Eckam: accurate in our findings, and what we're saying savings would be so we wouldn't want to over publish what savings would would be when we don't actually know in terms of, for, like Katie Eckam: he Katie Eckam: waste disposal for battery, electric buses and a lot of unknown questions like that that would factor into it. Katie Eckam: So I guess my answer would be unknown. But, Don, if you want to jump in and add to that John Havrilla: We have been asked to do. Assessments of maintenance costs fuel costs things of that nature, and we have done them. But it quite frankly, is all over the map. What we're finding is battery, electric buses. The maintenance of the bus itself is much less than a Diesel bus. It doesn't have a drive train
052doesn't have an engine doesn't have a transmission. It's motors and a battery. John Havrilla: And so the cost of maintaining the bus is typically much less until you get to the battery replacement. John Havrilla: If the battery has to be replaced prematurely. So if you have to replace the battery in year 6, then that's a cost that you know, typically could could swing things a bit. We tell our clients that they should negotiate with the bus manufacturer for a warranty on the battery and understand what that warranty is. John Havrilla: the other component. So typically on maintenance, the maintenance cost of the bus is less. But you have a new component. Now these chargers and these chargers require annual maintenance. So the chargers increase. What I've seen is that although the bus manufacturers will tell
053you you're going to save money on maintenance. It's kind of a wash when you throw in the charger maintenance and everything else that goes with it. John Havrilla: So from a maintenance standpoint. John Havrilla: There are some savings. But I you know I wouldn't say it's enough to take it to the bank. One of the things that we're seeing is that these buses have a very significant increase in equivalent miles per gallon. John Havrilla: You know a school bus may get 5, 6 miles a gallon. These things are getting, you know, 1618 miles per gallon equivalent. John Havrilla: So they're much more efficient. You're not losing a lot of energy through heat through the combustion engines is being directly converted to the drivetrain. And so, you know, you have to look at the rates that
054you're being charged and how you're you're using electricity, and that becomes complicated because it depends on how much you're using in peak demand during the day versus the evening and versus the rates that you're currently John Havrilla: the New York State has asked that the utilities come up with new charging rates. John Havrilla: so there will be school district charging rates that will be coming out this fall John Havrilla: by every utility. We already know what national grids are. I've not seen Nisig's rate plan yet. John Havrilla: But they're, you know, basically, what they're trying to do is is minimize the impact of the demand charges on bus charging. So John Havrilla: you know, there should be fuel savings as well. The big problem up front right now is the cost of the buses. Cost
055of the buses are significantly more than your traditional Diesel bus. It's expected that those will come down. John Havrilla: will they? We don't know. John Havrilla: There are grants that that take that, and and, you know, make that almost even so, if you can take advantage of the grants. But the other problem is is, how long will the grants last? John Havrilla: Oh, again, those are all variables. We don't know. But John Havrilla: you know we have looked at it. We're just not comfortable, providing you a return on investment due to the number of variables that are there. E2 Gowanda HS Library: How long does the school? How long will the battery last? The bus. E2 Gowanda HS Library: the battery, should last the life of the bus John Havrilla: But the variables there are
056is that the the batteries are rated, based upon the number of discharges and charges, and if you deep cycle, the battery. It takes the life out of it faster. John Havrilla: That's why our philosophy and our designs have been based upon low, slow charging, because it's better for the battery, also better for your utility rates. So all of the models that we've done have been based upon charging the batteries as low and slow as possible, using a charge management system which is healthier for the battery, healthier for the utility rates. You will John Havrilla: right now the State Education Department and the State have come out and said the battery. The life of these buses is estimated at 8 years. John Havrilla: There's no reason why the bus itself shouldn't last 1012 years like a
057typical Diesel bus. I think their concern more is the battery itself. John Havrilla: And as the battery ages, it declines. So, as Brad indicated earlier, we're using a 90% life or the battery is at 90% of its capacity when you're running it. Not a hundred. John Havrilla: Oh. John Havrilla: what we're also recommending to our clients is, as they get new buses. Put the newer buses on longer routes. As the battery is healthier. John Havrilla: so you will see a degradation of the battery over time. John Havrilla: but they should last 8 to 10 years pretty easily. We've got battery systems out there with transit agencies that have been well over 10 years. John Havrilla: But again it depends on temperature cycles, charging cycles. John Havrilla: you know. If you can treat the battery well,
058it should last a long time E2 Gowanda HS Library: So not to to keep going over the same stuff. But it does. Doesn't seem like it's fair to E2 Gowanda HS Library: that. We don't have an roi on it, and I'm not accusing you. It's just this seems kind of silly. If if the transit systems have used these things for over 10 years E2 Gowanda HS Library: right like I feel like they must have a cost analysis on it, if it's costing them more or less money. And then the environmental I would have concern of is that compared to traditional Diesel fuels or traditional petroleum fuels? Or is it biofuels like? There's even on that side of it, the environmental return that you can show us. Seems like there's a lot of variables that E2
059Gowanda HS Library: make it mooc as well. E2 Gowanda HS Library: So I guess my concern is is, I just wanted to have data that we can take to E2 Gowanda HS Library: councilmen, senators, etc. If we have this data and we do get the permission to move it on. E2 Gowanda HS Library: show it to others like, what are we gonna really be showing them to quantify one way or the other? E2 Gowanda HS Library: He's gonna have great stuff. John Havrilla: Understood. E2 Gowanda HS Library: And again, that's not to pick on Wendell by any means. That's just John Havrilla: I mean, we could E2 Gowanda HS Library: Head. Scratching of this whole thing John Havrilla: We, we could actually develop one specifically for your district. John Havrilla: but that to be perfectly
060blunt with you would be another study, all in of itself. John Havrilla: And you know, Nyserda has. John Havrilla: Okay. John Havrilla: My cert is trying to do these studies for over 600 school districts. So they're trying to keep the cost point to a point where they can understand what the issues are John Havrilla: in. John Havrilla: They have not been willing to fund that at this point E2 Gowanda HS Library: Can't imagine. Last question. Sorry back is disposal of the bus. So maybe we get lucky we hit the 10 or 12 year mark, what do we do with the bus at at that point? Because it's not a traditional Diesel bus, right? That E2 Gowanda HS Library: you can still get some sort of life out of right, like once the battery's shot battery's
061shot, and then it's E2 Gowanda HS Library: contaminant at that point right Katie Eckam: You're like, have John Havrilla: Didn't really Katie Eckam: Go ahead, John. We're like who wants to answer it? We have been searching high and low for that answer. We've reached out to bus manufacturers. We've reached out to Nyserda and there is not an answer for that. Currently, I understand that that's probably extremely frustrating. It is for us as well as engineers. We want to know the answer. But we also Katie Eckam: we'll let you know if there are any updates with that. But E2 Gowanda HS Library: Parsley. That's that's all we know. E2 Gowanda HS Library: Okay? E2 Gowanda HS Library: Good questions. We're good. We can build a big warehouse. Yes, yeah. E2 Gowanda HS Library: Anything else for
062the board. Anybody have anything else? E2 Gowanda HS Library: No, and E2 Gowanda HS Library: I'm not happy. There's a messenger. We appreciate all your hard work done. A great job. Thank you very much. Yeah, thank you. Katie Eckam: Thank you very much. I appreciate the time, and if anything else comes up, feel free to reach out. As John said. We like to see ourselves as your trusted advisor. You know we're not gonna sugarcoat anything. If there's any questions we'll give you the answers to the best of our ability. So E2 Gowanda HS Library: Sure. Katie Eckam: Thank you for for your time again. Katie Eckam: Thank you. Alright, bye-bye. E2 Gowanda HS Library: Anybody have anything further for the workshop? E2 Gowanda HS Library: All right. Nobody has anything may take consideration of a
063motion to adjourn the workshop. E2 Gowanda HS Library: Second, all in favor. Go ahead, and we'll shut down for a few minutes.