001Thank you. >> Always good. You're >> good. Um we are already 10 minutes delayed. So we will get started on the human resources committee work session. Um we uh are taking a pause or we're taking a pause from the conversations that we've been having related to um hiring um the hiring process here at ICS. Um, Zach Wind is here to talk to us specifically about the exit and review process that ICS is currently undertaking so that we can have a little bit of discussion about what and why and what opportunities there might be to do things um in alternative ways. Um and then we are going to have just an intro conversation about tenure recommendations process and the focus areas with which um are are focused on uh for those processes. We are probably not
002going to get to 4.3 partially because I was delayed on the agenda and so it didn't give Zach and his team ample time to even think about talking to us about that. Um so we're going to talk about it at the next one. I apologize ahead of time for that but I guess it's not as >> I'm sorry. Would you um approve or not approve the minute? >> Just before we go any further, do we have any public comment today? >> We do not. No, >> we have no public comment. Uh now we would like to move to approving the minutes from the February 3rd, 2026 work session. >> Okay. Oh, you're not all right. >> Oh, okay. Oh, good. >> I'm so sorry. >> That's right. >> Dash, thank you so much for being
003here today. >> Sure. So, uh, our first topic that we're going to talk about, I I did put some slides for all of these, but it's very just sort of a reference point. Um, the, um, for exit process, I think I duplicated that one. So, uh, just go to let me jump to slide three, I think. Then go get right there. So, exit interviews, uh, the reason we're talking about this, just to get out, is that there's not a a strong process. So that so this is pretty much what we do right now. Um when folks depart and I'm going to pass this down. This is the exit interviewing survey that gets sent out. But when folks depart our organization, we send out an exit interview uh survey. Staff have the option to request to
004interview in person. Um and I and typically in a given year two to four, the highest being maybe nine uh surveys come back. Typically we have two or three inerson interviews with usually gladier or Bob and notes are kept on file for those as well. That's sort of the process right now. There's no um like no key performance indicators collected. There's no it's just sort of a it's it's I was looking through our historical records on this. A lot of this comes out of 2006. um seems like there was discussions at that time and those discussions were largely you know just about developing a process but the context was very different. Um having been a classroom teacher myself at that time not here but in another district the the turnover was much lower and um
005it was just a it was a different ball game. So, uh, I say all this to maybe this is a good time to sort of think about if this is a process that we want to dedicate to, what would be the the the items that the board would want to look for and know about um, you know, what are the maybe the pain points, what are, you know, what would we need to do? So, that's that's my intro to exit interviews. >> Just two questions about this slide. Um, so when it's sent, it's sent like in this form as opposed to electronically. >> Correct. >> Yeah. Okay. >> And then how many staff members depart per year? >> Um, it's a good question. Um, so it depends what you call a staff member. And the
006reason I say that is we have subs and we have a whole but if we're talking about like members of the ITA and ESPs I would have to get you like I'd have to sit down ballpark I'd say we probably turn over 50 to 60 teachers a year. Um and then the other groups are probably lesser probably like 10 to 30 depending on >> Okay. Just to clarify, I guess I'm asking how many people get receive the survey. >> So those folks are all supposed to receive see the survey. Are there some that don't? I'm sure that's happened. Um it's since it's not ever been a key driver of our operation. I don't it's not a detail I've spent significant time looking into. So, for those uh viewing at home, the surveys is is mostly
007just uh uh you know, ask folks what their roles are, um how long they've been in the district, uh what influenced their reason for leaving, what was their opinion on a whole host of things, host of things ranging from salary to dental plan to um you know, the equipment available while working there. Um, and then asks for ratings on sort of like the work culture. Um, and then also feedback on supervisor. And then there's a whole bunch of sort of like short essay, not essay, but like paragraph questions. Um, uh, asking about, you know, why you join the district? Um, if you're moving to a new job, what makes that job um, you know, why why are you doing that? Um, what constructive feedback you have, what you did enjoy. Um, and if you recommend
008both part here. So that's sort of the short approach. >> Yeah. So it seems like we could I mean we could revamp a little bit the the questionnaire style looks like the last time it was updated on the bottom says 2011. I guess the that seems like easy. I guess the question that I had was sort of like how has this information been available in the past? Like does it get compiled? Who gets to look at it? I think that was more that's probably more of the question that we had. Like yeah, >> as a board it would be nice for us to be able to see >> see a compilation of this data. >> Um maybe no one's dissatisfied with what's being collected, but maybe just that we haven't been able to see. Yeah,
009I would say this the sample size is so small that uh it like it's not like it's not worthy of looking at but I would I would if this is the focus area I would focus on how we can get a higher yield on our return like the return on these sent out on probably digitizing them and then how do we capture that information and store it. So if it's a physical file like we've the challenge right now is it's it's We don't have a good system. Uh like this might like let's say you were an employee and you came and then you left it and you did fill this out. That's great. It's probably going to your personnel file but we don't necessarily have a record of of the over the last 20 years
010which people did didn't then we'd have to like through each file. We wouldn't have it. >> We could we certainly could. And then also I guess you're making a good point too like when you were saying the number 50 and then you're saying the sample size is smaller than thinking that most people who leave at the end of the year don't do this. So we might have eight people out of the 50 just make them >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> And then um Okay. So so like one question is how to get people to complete it. Another question is um how to share the data. >> Yeah. >> Um and and know how many how many people I guess the question. Yeah, I mean like to me it's probably the first step is digitizing it,
011right? Um I mean maybe if people want you can this as well but uh I guess the digital format is going to both help us in capturing that data right it dumps directly into a whatever system we're using we can we'll store that and keep that over time. So that would probably be an appropriate first step. Um and then the second piece is how do we encourage location >> the rationale for it going in the personnel file and I just >> um so anytime uh we have sort of formal communications with staff members uh we keep just general records on on files a whole host of things. It can be a update on someone's certification. It's the the way of you can track Because very frequently, not very frequently we get requests from departing employees,
012current employees for, you know, hey, what what do you have on this thing that >> I guess I I'm um my mind doesn't go to logistics yet. I guess my mind goes to sort of like vision and goals, right? So I I wonder about if the goal is from I feel like exit tickets you can learn about what's working and what's not. Right? As a board member, I would love to see on an annual basis a presentation of what percent of our folks leave and just broadly the category of like what's the reason, right? Like because if 50 people are if 50% of people are move are leaving because they're moving out of state, that is an interesting data point versus 50% of people leaving because they moved five miles to get paid more or
013or not. as as I know what at least the IT reported was the case as part of negotiations. So I'm curious about so if I so I'm curious what are our respective thoughts on that being a focus so that we can see what are like why are folks actually leaving >> and then to make plans based on that to address the like to address that. >> Does that sound like a like a a good reason? >> Yes. and also trying to get I think getting people encouraging people to to do the exit interview. Um since it's optional, you know, but I guess there's different ways like if it's kind of like if this is just passed out as like one piece of many papers versus like somebody saying, you know, it' be very helpful before
014you leave if you could please fill out this exit entry that helps us figure out things future and it's anonymous. It's okay. whatever that that might be. >> Yeah, there's a whole there's a whole range of ways we can approach that. There's everything from a hey your last I'm not saying we should do this. I'm just saying everything from hey uh you're going to get your last paycheck, you can turn your computer keys, uh whatever items you have, and you're going to meet with someone who's going to ask you these questions and report it. Right? That's a very formal process that some organizations do. Um there's probably a sort of we we just would need to rightsize that and that would probably take some probably some chats internally with our teams about like what's appropriate
015and then you know do we have most our departures occur in at the end of June. So like do we have the personnel to do that? I'm not sure. But then there's probably some survey models or some ways to um you know a short survey might get you know might yield some of the data that you'd want. You know as someone who gets a lot of surveys for like professional organizations I mean if I saw this I would uh just keep them open and uh not build out. Uh >> yeah some of the things No, that makes sense. Some of them are very easy. Like I'm just the first two questions could just be pre-filled out. Yeah. For them. Like type of position held. Nobody has to answer that. Length of service in the district.
016We know that. So now we've just eliminated the first two questions. You know, like I mean we could probably make this a lot shorter and even having it be fewer pages, >> right? >> Will be less. >> And if and if it's checkbox, that's even better, right? >> Just do it. Can I um since this is a committee committee meeting and so the structure is a little less formal than our board meetings, I see someone from ICA here and I don't mean to put you on the spot, but I'd really like to have input based on what you hear from your you know, >> so I I will give you that I am not the one who does a lot of those exit interviews. That's a lot of that is a lot of our our
017president because she passed that release. >> Okay. Um but they are face to they are either face to face or on a phone right they are conversational in nature um mostly because it is our experience that surveys just don't yield feedback you don't get participation they're not effective that um we we it is our stance that there's a huge amount of power in the onetoone right having a natural conversation with someone where you can dig deeper into you into questions and you can probe into avenues of response. I know that's not exactly kind of the question you're asking but um that is what I have on the spot for my experience. I I think that part of I appreciate about Erin posing the question is my first what I have been thinking is like a
018partnership with ITA and how to work with the and the other unions to which ties back in also to what Jacob was saying about like what is the what's the goal of doing this there are so many different goals um that can be applied with interviews whether they be really like a granular in nature of work or thinking kind of bigger picture about how to um improve the organization as a whole or is it improving you know the school as a whole. It also had me thinking about is it really you know the HR department at central office that should be doing these or is it the principal who has a relationship um with these folks who can really um can hear that kind of feedback in a um through a different lens. Um and
019that would kind of depend on like what the outcome is that we were really looking for. Um, so a big piece of that would be what that what that information is because improving things like at a school level is going to be focused on very different things and and the goal of that would be very different than thinking about at the district level that would be more thinking maybe about um you know pay or or or bigger um bigger issues. I'll share to cosign what was shared from my personal experience I guess running exit interviews and doing exit interviews. I agree that like the it should be hey can we talk and if they don't want to talk then it's when you feel more comfortable writing as opposed to the other way around just to
020add around the personnel file. Personally, I wouldn't fill it out just because it's going to be in my personnel file like because I like I whether I say positive things or negative things just like I don't want that associated with me. And I also just want to name that with the given the current state which I think like you very nicely identified as it's a thing that we like that's happened that we haven't really followed up on and now we're revisiting the most effective exit interviews I think are just like what led you to stay for as long as you did what caused you to leave what other feedback do you have? Um because I think that like those three questions would yield the data that I would want to see as a board member
021would be respectful of people's time and that would allow us to grow the process from there. I think anytime there's like a process that's being revamped, redone, the simpler the better. Um so I just wanted to name that that would be in my mind like an ideal thing going into next year. Just a simple practice that gets more people filling it out. simple data that we can then see and plan around and that's open-ended that allows people to like truly, you know, say what they think. >> Do we have barriers identified? like do we know statistics on how many of these are completed versus ex who is exiting like >> um yeah and so I think you're looking at five to 10% maybe which is it's a very low number usually like two out of
02250 >> uh some years it probably has been yeah >> it's more than 50 right but this is the teachers >> yeah right yeah so it's yeah it's that right right now I don't think we can point to it as like the baseline's minimal >> right >> it's probably the floor of what like anything we did with the uh iterative step above >> and do we get valuable information from these surveys that inform practices moving forward do we see these as an avenue to help do I I'm just curious when we think about efforts in what we're doing in the amount of work that you have going on. You know, like how we can spend our time in a way that is efficient and cost-effective that can also produce something worthy of changing practices in
023a meaningful way. >> Yeah. I mean, I think those that would probably warrant a larger discussion because uh ultimately to to get I guess we'd have to think about and I I'm not a expert on the statistics that we would need to know the right level of responses, but um there's probably a baseline number of responses we'd want per year that would give us data that is actionable, right? Doing two a year, you know, it's it's just really small and hard to know. Um, but if you're getting 30, that's probably that's that's something to work with. Um, so then it's a question of how do we get it and uh sort of what sort of personnel staffing do we put into it? Uh I always one of the things I always wonder is uh you
024know you have to do it to find out but uh what is it when I like reverse engineer the process in my mind. what is it that we would hear that would you know what are the the variables out there that we might hear and then how would we react right so um that might inform like what are we looking for what are we trying to find out and and then yeah what are the what are the board sort of goals and thoughts on how it will inform your your directions forward so >> everything's on the table I think >> yeah I I think that that exits and abuse are evidence-based longheld HR practice and like they are utilized so frequently across organizations is because they they do yield really powerful information that's really utilized.
025Um so I think uh it sounds like we can certainly access more of that information for the board to be able to understand kind of more broadly about the value of a process like this. Um uh it also seems like we need to uh if there is interest in in thinking further about this there's a question about ensuring that there's evidence- based uh practices that were like strategic >> right >> practices that you're actually following so that we know actually find evidence about whether this kind of thing is effective or to one or two questions or whatever it is. So I think we would need to see some um experts that can help us kind of think through that. Um then there was a piece about thinking about any kind of partnership opportunity with the
026FTA partially just because they've already been um doing this work with the same contingent of folks that um or contingents of folks that um that the HR department would be interested in doing as well. So, um, to be able to kind of learn and collaborate with one another. Also, I think that being thinking about being at least aware, if nothing else, of what the ITA's goals are in their exit interviews, there is benefit to having some alignment. Um, especially because we just watched the, you know, public negotiations where that data was, um, those data were were provided and called out quite a bit from the ITA. And um like with all the other data where um where it was very helpful to see both like the data that the district was presenting and seeing that
027side by side where um what the ITA would presenting I think that this was one area with which there was a real like missing component there not being able to look at those pieces side by side. Um, and so having never watched a negotiation before, that alone, um, made me feel like it would be valuable information for the district to be able to hold to either, um, support or or combat the narrative that they are hearing from from other groups. Um, so I don't know if people have like any other specific questions about this. I think that if there is any interest from the committee about continuing to have this conversation, it seems like we would need to we would want to get some of that other information about um the benefits and how how
028to do it and see if the full board would be interested in. Well, maybe it's a process question. Is this the sort of thing that the full board decides or is this the because it sounds to me like you want to do it? >> I think we're open to it. I I don't um I think the the helpful information from the board would be and it could just be this committee is what are what is the information that you would hope to find out from right maybe this survey we have is perfect and we just need to figure out how to get a higher return on responses um maybe you know there's a couple different ways we can do it but I think the most helpful piece would be what information is the board seeking
029specifically and if we have that then we could probably build out models and talk to folks um who have done this more in other organizations and and and do some backbending on our own. Um so I think that would be the biggest piece you know um in terms of action items on our side uh I I see no reason not to digitize this. I think digitizing it and then maybe letting you all take a look at it see what what we have even if we just took this digitized it modernized a little bit that would probably be a good step and then uh de mock up some workflows of how people might get that timeline around it >> and is because I I thought you said earlier that you wouldn't fill this out um is
030that because was that simply because of the handwritten than it could. >> Yeah. Usually like when there's like six written responses where I'm going to sit down and like if I'm not focused on it and just like someone just hand it to me, I'm unlikely to and that's more about me talking about like surveys that get to my email every day from different organizations, right? I get five of those a day. So I'm just >> I think I'm thinking about some of the like the questions or ideas that were raised. So, I guess I'm curious like the idea of an in-person connection with the digital options. What is your like reaction to that? >> Um, well, there's two parts to this. I believe you had said that there if you're doing an in-person interview, then
031you've lost anonymity, right? So, I think you have to we have to sort of figure out where we want. Now you could we could collect that data and store it anonymously but right know if someone's talking to the an HR leader about some issue that they feel like has that has not been addressed or considered like they might not be as open to speaking about as they would to the ITA like I would that's what I would expect. But um so that's no the the only reaction on that is just the the time and labor that is related to we'd have to really think about how we could get to everyone because it's no uh it's a considerable um piece of work to do that and do we outsource it to our building leaders then
032that's something for them to have to take on. Do we have a couple people that do it? Do we have set days like you know just to figure out how it all works? We had al and with the question around like simplifying the the questions or like reducing them significantly. What's your reaction to that? >> I don't know that I have a reaction per se. I think it's more like a conversation where we're I guess it's like again what is it that you like we could simplify it but what are we going to point to that right? So if we simplify it, are we going to do questions about uh job satisfaction related to salary? That could be a very simple question, right? It could be. So that's where the board feedback would be really
033helpful. But yeah, simple simple is good. I mean, why are you leaving is really the biggest thing that I think we want to know. But if somebody says I'm retiring, it's like okay, then it's like move on. Um so but I think I think there's only a couple of things that that we really really want to know. And so we probably could boil it down. And then I'm just wondering I don't know if this is possible, but like maybe this would make it very complicated, but I just wonder if people could have a I wonder if there could be an option. Do you want to we we before you leave, we want you to do an exit. You could do it with HR, the ITA, your building leader, or you could fill out an anonymous
034survey. Which modality would you like to choose? And then because I I think it matters so much, you know, the relationship that people have. They may not want to talk to it. They might want to fill out anonymously. they might want to talk to the building leader. That would make it a little complicated because you're giving people a lot of choices. I know there's some negatives to that, but you know, if everybody if it increased the response rate by, you know, five times, it would be important. >> Yeah. Yeah. Um perhaps I think it's crazy. I I have such strong feelings about it >> because I just like I think that it needs to be the direct supervisor who's getting feedback about >> I don't there's there's so many different pieces. I definitely don't think
035it can be like it. It can be like one of the options because the whole point is that uh both representation I would love for them to be able to hear and get feedback. Um but yeah, I just I think it's more of Yes, it would be great to have options. And I don't think that it's that much of a I can't I can't think of a like high quality manager, supervisor, leader who wouldn't want and wouldn't benefit from feedback from their direct reports about how things have gone, why they're leaving, things like that. And I think that if it was something more like direct resource, it would allow for more meaningful change at the level that would have biggest impact. And then of course if it's something major like how salaries are set, which
036is not within their purview, they can share that, you know, upward. But again, I think like we could all I we've all probably had experiences with this. we could all throw out a million ideas which is why I can say if we're interested in continuing the conversation it's probably like the next step is to actually get some you know to some agreement about like what the mission would be for even doing this work and then therefore who would most benefit from hearing it being available what questions should be asked. So next step >> so next steps would be finding out >> well for me it would be finding out like where do we need to have that conversation forward? Do we need how do we kind of >> Yeah. >> We would probably have that
037conversation. >> I feel like we should email and request it. >> But I also do think like from your end because if it's the board's job to figure out what is the information we want. I personally would be really curious from your end just what are best practices evidence based like like what are different methods either from other districts or come back with that and and >> it's not just what the board wants right like they need to >> that we need too >> there's you know if we ven diagram at that there's a lot of overlap >> um >> I'm also struck by the thought of you know there's probably the perfect system and then there's a good system that we could start with and then iterate and tweak going forward, right? It would
038probably be multi-year to sort of calibrate it in terms of the needs of our district. So yeah, next steps could be what does the board want to see in uh exit survey data then and then we could mock up some different um models, report back on how different districts are structuring this and start at least taking some like digitizing our current ones I think would be a simple a simple win. Um building into some workflow so when people resign they at least start sending that out digitally. I think that's that's pretty great. >> That's great. That's great. >> And can I ask one more question? Sure. >> Um I mean typically when we do get these filled out, is it more, for lack of a better word, disgruntled? Like thinking about people who are angry
039that fill them out? Like should we consider incentivizing doing these exit surveys in a way that we get a full picture of why people are leaving rather than just people who want to air grievances. Not that we don't want to hear the grievances, but we want to understand. >> Yeah. I mean, I think you kind of answered your own question in terms of like the folks that fill it out probably would skew towards like frustrated, right? So, but uh can't say it's every single one of them, but you know, certainly some of the ones I previewed are are along those lines. And sometimes it's things that you know, fair frustration, but we would have we wouldn't be able to prevent, right? Um, and then sometimes it's things like, oh gosh, it would have been great
040to know. >> So, um, yeah. What was the second part of your question? >> Well, I think it's more is is there a way to incentivize people doing these so we get a full picture? Because I just think about like customer service. Usually people don't say, "Oh, it was great. I just blah blah blah." It's usually wanting to again air grievances. So we want to get a full picture of who's leaving and why and clearly understand the the different dynamics playing into this. >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean so I I think you can incentivize by either um you know uh say all right as part of your last day you come to HR you come here you have an exit meeting and you can make that part of it. you'll still lose some folks who,
041you know, go on a leave and don't come back and that that be a little bit harder. But there's probably some methods along those lines that would yield um sort of the final check point probably get to most incentivizing um I'm sure there's some incentive structures out there for that um legalities of someone. >> Great. Thank you. We will return back to this. um appreciate their cander. Um we will move on to the second item which is tenure recommendations process and focus. >> Great. Um I have a couple slides and some data to go with this and this is really small but uh short version. Uh tender's a we talk about tenure. The main thing is it's a board action, right? The the board uh question. Sorry was asking about it. >> I was just
042saying that I put this on board. >> Oh, yeah. Sorry, I just got I just got this done before. So, um so tenders of board action, right? In New York State, usually the probationary period is four years. It's in most cases. Um because uh in some cases it can be three years. You have prior tenure um for that uh for that same tenure area. Sometimes you'll see people three years uh superintendent will make a recommendation and that's process going to talk about and then the board takes formal action via the personnel board. Um it's you don't I I put this here tenders earn through satisfactory performance meaning uh uh you get a recommendation to supervisor then to HR superintendent then to you. Um just being here is not a guarantee of tenure. That being said,
043if the board has not taken an action, teachers are tendered like like it's the clock. So, if there's no action taken, the default is to tender. Um, and these are just summaries of a much more complicated process. But, uh, teachers are um, evaluated under a negotiated APR agreement. Um, we're actually going to be negotiating negotiating and restructuring this. So what I'm talking about today could be a bit different um next year depending how that goes. Um and when we evaluate teachers um we use typically we use the Danielson rubric. However, there's a number of uh other um certification areas in our state that we have a different rubric um the sort of non-eing rubric which is uh it's just different. We'll leave it at that for now. Um and and that's and folks are uh
044evaluated that way. Um and the main thing that you all want, you know, one you you make the recommendation, but also for us, um uh if we ever need to do reductions in things like seniority, uh recall rights, all that these have to be tenured and you're lined up in those processes. So that's sort of this summary of the tenure process. And then I have some data around um the number of teachers that are in our system right now that are untenured. Um or do you want to ask questions about those? >> Before we go on to that, can you just um define a talk a little bit more about the negotiated agreements and what that what that looks like? >> Um yeah, it's that's actually Did you just hop to the last slide? Uh
045there's a bit of that. Um so APR is uh you know across this in New York state uh we have to bet you're you're do better doing that. >> Yeah. Um I can talk to you about it. Uh the annual professional performance right. So APR uh we are currently under the 312D system with some modifications that came into play in July of 2024 when Hokll signed the new law that allows us to convert move forward to what we call the steps system um which is the standardsbased evaluator and uh professional support system. Uh we have right now if you were to go on to the state website you can find the APR document. It is a negotiated document and it is considered an extension of our contract as written. So we are beholden to that
046as well as kind of assistance that are outlined in it. Um New York State defines a group of teachers which are required to have those annual professional performance reviews and for are not yet tenured members that does require that they are having annually um a set of four observations at least two of them that are announced. they have unannounced. They're supposed to be getting an observation from an independent outside observer. It's a big process without the timelines and it is it's a burdensome process. I'm not going to lie. Um, we also have a group of folks that Zach has actually slipped these up into our we can kind of see we have another group of folks for example our counselor social workers prek who are non-mandatory but they have been negotiated into our process and
047so they have a parallel but not exactly the same system right now those observations are done are done by our building leaders as well as anyone else who has been approved to conduct those uh observations. So mostly it's going to be our administrators, our building leaders. However, there are a few other staff who have had that approval and are doing those observations as well. Um they do they are looking at the Danielson rubric which is our our primary kind of right now that is what we're looking for and folks have to demonstrate competence in all four areas of the Danielson rubric. At the end of each uh evaluation cycle, those evaluations are reduced down to a heading score. So highly effective, effective, developing or ineffective. Um and we have different meanings for what evaluations at
048those different levels, how those impact our our our staff. Um so for example, if someone is in developing, we have to offer them a a teacher improvement plan. We give them a coach. We try to like fix them and get them along their way. um frequency and deadline. Let's talk about those things. Those are fun and exciting. Uh one announced, one announced. So, so three for our probation here. So, one announced, one unannounced. The the announced is going to be a class long. They're going to come in. They're going to see things start to finish. They are looking especially at Danielson. They're going to be looking at the complete Danielson. Our unannounced also called walkthroughs by different building leaders. Might hear different vocabulary used. Those are meant to focus exclusively on domains two and three
049which really is about your your ability to do instruct in your content knowledge. Uh for our not yet tenured folks the deadline to have two announced observations and one unannounced observation is March one. So a couple days ago. >> Yeah. the the the March 1 deadline here is if you're in your final year, we that's where we would uh work with the teacher rather to let them know well ahead of time like hey you know we we're not going to be pushing you or recommending you to the board for tenure um versus uh well we don't actually tell them you just have to tell them if we're not going to. Um that to be clear though that does not preclude like that's based on our observation process right if there's a whole there's other things
050that could just >> there's any number of things that might also impact the grant granting of tender or not right APR is just one element in it and with that two that 2024 revamp of the laws it cannot be the sole reason that right we can't base tenure denial on APRs That is something that that is part of that 2024 law, >> right? >> It can't >> but but if someone's continually in effect, >> sure, right? There could be other reasons, but it can't you that can't be that all that, right? It can't be a PPR score. That is the sole determin. >> What would what are examples of other things that >> again? And we might see we there might be other factors beyond just the observations and that formal observations which would inform
051a building leader to make that recommendation or not. Right? When we're looking at APR scores, those really are just limited to that times that you have an administrator in a for in that process, right? There are going to be other things that are going to happen that might inform a building, >> right? Like really simple, but this is the easiest one. It's like uh if someone is uh you know there's a is not going to show up in an evaluation but chronically not submitting grades or nonresponsive to emails or not you know engaging in appropriate professional practice right that might not come through in the APR but there could be other reasons >> but if someone and this I want to make sure I understand but if someone every observation scored low in all four
052elements of the day and rubric over the course of three years they would still get tenure well So we we've got several pieces that have come into play before then. So we're hoping that that's not going to happen, right? Especially in our first year, we have lots of strong language about effectives and ineffectives and getting a coach into them those people to support him right away. Right? We have systems to try to to use this as an informative system to provide supports for our teachers so that they can improve and show that uh >> when you say we are you talking about >> I'm talking about collective >> we because if if a teacher if a teacher's uh repeatedly scored low in their observations we're going to set them up with a TF which is
053a teacher improvement plan and it's going to be a collective conversation with the union, the teacher and the building leadership and even sometimes district office but usually not. So yeah and and usually that that would be happening in years one two three. So the hope is that they wouldn't get and and if they're not successful in those things that would be sufficient evidence to not move them forward. >> Yeah. Otherwise, it's a it's a fun and delightful process. We we have a pre-observation. We say, "Hey, this is what's going to go down." Folks come watch the thing and then we do a post observation and say, "Hey, did you see that thing I did? Also, here's some things that you missed." Right? So the the whole process is it is that that moment in time
054of the classroom but it's also conversation both before and after of the planning the strategy the followup the what change did you make when you delivered this lesson at another time right you saw me give it this version and I didn't like how that happened and so when I presented it later I shifted this and you should know that as the observer that I was monitoring that process >> just a few things on my mind with this that just curious about I um feel like informally I have heard from some principles or administrators just like the amount of time that goes into this then could distract or like from I mean and it's necessary right it is a required thing I understand that but like actually that there might not be adequate time and personnel
055to engage in these plus to my mind this is helpful for determining whether or not someone gets tenure. I've I don't think there's much research or evidence around these driving instructional improvement as opposed to instructional coaching with. So I'm just generally curious I'm curious to know more about like >> when you take into account what's required by bargaining efforts and by the state how many hours >> does it actually take to do this and how many what what how many hours do personnel have to do this and all of their other job responsibilities. >> Yeah. So this we've all identified this as a pain point um in terms of the the labor the time particularly as it relates to the announced observation process because you're doing like a formal premeating then you're going observing and
056then there's a a follow-up which are all good and I would say having conducted these the follow-up meetings there's actually some really great conversations that can be had about because really when you're you're really looking at something for 40 minutes and you have a follow-up conversation about like why did you take the lesson in that discrete angle? Um there's actually some really good value there. But um that does lead us to uh the district will be working on with the union on a new process for this and there's certainly we're certainly open to some conversations about how we might structure those in ways that again get us to the information we need but maybe in a more expeditious fashion or how we capture that. So um yeah >> so when you >> steps program I'm
057so excited >> very excited >> um when you are gardening what are the what are the pieces with which you're focused on bargaining and I guess I'm coming to that with the question of um I assume that the district will how do you If there are many teachers that get tenured and then in in future evaluations or just you know a strong uh building leader working with that teacher continuing to think like like there are that would inform you probably that like the tenure process maybe isn't evaluating the right things or so I'm wondering like how how you all make that determination I guess it sounds like in in partnership of like reflecting on Is the is what we're using to evaluate tenure through through APDR like currently working? Is it like producing the outcomes
058that we're hoping for which is that being high quality teachers or teachers that are providing high quality instruction are actually being tenured like how how do you assess like the like the the impact? Yes. Well, so I think it's good it comes down to the actual observation like the the most linear way of thinking about it is the observation process, right? So if I'm going to use the Danielson rubric or the MPPPR rubric, it's you're looking at each each area and you're rating competence. Um things to know is that in subsequent years, even after tenure, the teacher can still be put on an improvement plan. now which is which happens from time to time. So there is there's recourse um available but uh I think so I think that answers some of your question and
059then the second part of just like how do you how do you I guess the second part of your question is just sort of >> I guess I I'm wondering like how you kind of reflect on the decisions you're making and and the negotiations about AP card but now I'm realizing is what you're negotiating just what tool >> Yeah. like a tool and process, right? Like >> Right. Well, so we we're really just at the start of this. I had a meeting last Wednesday where I invited uh members of ITA as well as members of administration to come together and to let them know and I I along with I worked with Mary Broker and Clintowski to introduce steps to compare it to. So it's 312E. So to compare 312E to what 312D what changes
060took place and and start to gather what hopes and wonders we have as we approach this new process. Um some of the key standouts if I may are increased collaboration between administration and our teaching staff um recognizing that at least from my perspective and this is I don't want to speak for our admin but this is my hope out of it is that we allow our administrators to really give a lot of their focus towards our newest members and supporting them in their first years before they get that tenure because the steps program does bifurcate the requirements for not yet tended versus tenure. I say I could use not yet tenure rather than untenure because hey I'm here to support my folks. Uh allow them to shift focus because one of the key provisions of
061the steps program is that we are using multiple metrics for observation and gather or for rather not for observation but for gathering data. observations are one required component but it must be combined with at least one other metric and the state provides us with a smores board of options to choose from and so as we are starting this conversation and starting this negotiation process that's what we're looking at and saying what are these other methods that we have that are going to be supportive for that I'm looking are going to be supportive for my folks um and are going to allow our administrators to again give the focus to where it's most needed and to then allow my members, right, our our tenure members, the ones we said, "Hey, you're good here. You and to
062recognize our expertise and professionalism and allow us to better support each other after that initial probationary period, right? We still there is still a requirement that as for tenure folks to have observations and those could be done with administration but it also allows us to pursue things like portfolios or um action projects, goal setting, student learning objectives. There's a again there's a myriad of options that would be available to us. Uh and by all means I would value a conversation about what's going on there. U because it is it is really exciting. Um, we want a system that is truly informative and empowering for our teachers that it allows them to grow as professionals. And I'm going to just take off my my unit hat, just put on my data hat for a moment. >>
063My experience with our current system is that it was a box check. We did the job. I put on my proper dog and pony show like I'm supposed to do. Like I I mean I went to get my ED degree in, you know, 20 plus years ago at this point. You know, we called it an auto pony show then. Um and it it we recognize our our administrators talked about how valuable for them that unannounced that walkth through experience really is when it comes to reflecting on the genuine day-to-day experience in the classroom. Right? It's a system. It works. It's okay. I don't know that it's giving us everything that we want out. >> Oh. Oh my gosh. Mic drop. Close this out. Um, >> what is the next step for that process? >> We
064need to decide what what what our steps are. I think this was meant to be when we get to the >> maybe just like a couple things. is so the the other piece is you know the board plays a a determining role at the end here. So the question to the board would be you know we have templates we have structures of how what information the board wanted to see has wanted to see historically um and you know what that's going to look like all those pieces. Um, so the question for the board is, is that is that still what you want to see or are there other other pieces of evidence or specific things that the board would like to know and understand when they're um making the choice to uh tender a teacher
065or not? >> What is the best way for board members to see I guess the uh the information that is within our control? Um, so the the board gets tenure recommendations, right? Um, >> oh, I I guess I meant more on like the overall process or >> No, hang with me here. Um, the board gets tenure recommendation uh like forms and in it it's gonna it's going to show when the observations were have a write up of all this information, right? Um, and some of those are more robust than others, but it's up to the board to to both set the standard to set the standard and expectations around what it is we'd like to see and then we can uh that will then have a trickle down impact on what it is that uh
066folks are are looking at. So, that's that's one piece of it. The other piece of it is as we work with our um to sort of develop this new APR process, if there's um things that the board would like to see more of, you know, he's certainly welcome to uh provide us with that information. >> Well, I'm disappointed we didn't get to see all the numbers. So, let's make sure to add that to the top of the we can >> and it is in the slide that is is saved up there. just um and maybe I'll just say I think we have um yeah >> which slide >> oh well I mean the slides I I have it by subject area and schools um but I what's my total number it's a good number it's
067probably 100 teachers that go through the process right now at least so >> and how does that differ from like five >> I'd have to be researched to find Thank you. Appreciate it. >> Thank you.