001This is Leading for All, a podcast elevating inclusive instructional leadership across Ohio. Next on today's program, it's it's an odd relationship. Um, you know, perhaps teachers and faculty and staff or even parents. Uh, you know, they treat they may treat you differently in your community because you happen to be one of a group of five that makes decisions that are very important for [music] your community. This special four-part series for Ohio School Board members is created in partnership with the Ohio Inclusive Instructional Leadership and the Ohio School Boards Association, coordinated by the University of Cincinnati Systems Development [music] and Improvement Center with support from the Ohio Department of Education Workforce. Now, here's your host, Dr. Rodney Harelson. >> I have Micah Covert here and Christine Robbins as my guests. So if we think about trust
002and how school boards navigate at the at any given point we're always maintaining eroding or building trust. What do you see as schoolboard members role in building trust with their constituents? Christina, can I start with you? >> Sure. Absolutely. Um so I served on a board of education for two terms uh the Westerville board of education and one of the reasons I chose to run for the board was because there was an issue related to community and lack of trust. So, communication is key in terms of building trust with the community um and staying at the governance level um the strategic governance level and asking questions um related to um student outcomes and making sure that you're involving your community in those discussions as well. >> What about for you in terms of how school
003members can build trust? >> Well, I think the very first thing we should do as schoolboard members is to understand ourselves. Um, you know, getting back to this concept of self-actualization, I think we need to be our authentic selves. We need to recognize we are one voice in a group of five or perhaps seven or or larger. And uh we build trust, I think, by um offering a trusting ear to our our constituents. And I know we've discussed in the past the importance of the chain of command. And one thing that I always try to um share with new board members is uh offer a listening ear to your community members, but encourage them uh to follow that chain of command. Encourage them to do a little bit digging and learning of themselves and understanding
004school policy or or perhaps a new law that is um coming down the pipeline. And so I think first we understand who we are and our roles both our personality but our roles as a schoolboard member and then we offer a listening ear and that's really the best way we can build trust. >> You know me one of the things I connect with what you're saying here is that at the end of the day community members want to be seen valued and heard their voices are important. They are great feedback loops for us as we make decisions. >> I guess I want to know how I'll come back to you Christine. How do we really ensure that their voices are heard but not discouraged, especially if if we're still navigating the the questions that they're
005asking us? >> Well, I think it's important to be visible in the community. Um, one of the um things that we did as a board that was part of a goal that we established for ourselves was to make sure that we were at various community events that we weren't just out there when we were going to be putting a levy on the ballot, but on an ongoing basis. We attended a lot of civic organization meetings. We were involved in the city. We're involved um with the chamber of commerce. Um just making sure again as Micah said that we're there to listen and not necessarily to provide immediate responses, but to make those connections with the the superintendent, the treasurer, others in the district who actually manage the day-to-day operations of the district. >> It sounds
006like you get some powerful insights by being out there and a lot of listening, maybe not responding in that moment. The the power of just listening there. I think Megan you led into this idea about kind of the active listening which doesn't mean that we have to have a response right then even when our constituents might want us to respond immediately. Megan talk about how you navigate kind of the listening and maybe giving a response but it might not be what your constituent wants to hear. Well, uh, I'm so glad you brought up those points, Christie, because, you know, it is so important to show the community, hey, we are here and, uh, kind of take away that veil of mystery from it all. Really, what I share with our constituents and any community member
007is we that we do not operate in a vacuum. You know, yeah, schoolboard members are out there. We are part of this community that that we we care about so dearly and the children and the families in this community. And so I think you continue to build trust and offering a listening ear by showing folks like, hey, I I'm one of you as well. I'm just the person that happened to uh put my name forward. Um and I think when we recognize this is not about us. This is about our community and the skills that we have just happen to align and put us in those roles. Uh people take that uh people take you seriously. they they recognize that you are an authentic person. And I tell people that uh no matter what your
008position or what your um what role of uh you play as a stakeholder in our in our school district, um I'm always here to listen. Uh I can't always um have a decision or any sort of pertinent information perhaps for a variety of reasons. It could be legal. It could be related to a furpa. Um, you know, so information that we may not always want to share, but we're here to listen because people do want to be heard. And again, we do not operate in a vacuum. The same folks that are asking us questions or who are perhaps inquisitive about something. Um, they're part they are part of your school district as well. They may not be at the school every day. They may not even have children, but they're voters. They're members of your
009community. And you have to respect that by offering your listening ear and uh respecting yourself in this role as well. Um I mentioned earlier that we don't take off our hats as board members. However, when you're doing your grocery shopping, that doesn't mean you have to do school business or quite frankly you shouldn't because you're just one singular person of a governing board. But uh again going back to your authentic self uh people will recognize that I don't allow any communication via social media. Um I expect that uh anyone can email me or call me even my numbers public. I don't really appreciate that. I'm a millennial. I don't talk on the phone you know. So um but I I don't expect any uh I don't allow any communications via social media because that's my
010private personal um u uh outlet and and platform and uh that's not how we we would operate as a business, you know, in the private world. And so I wouldn't expect the same from my customers in the business world. So I don't expect the same from my community members. One thing I'm mostly connecting with here is that at the end of the day, regardless of whether you're a schoolboard member or not, you're still, you know, a person. And I think sometimes we get caught in the trap of schoolboard member feels like some nebulous person behind a curtain somewhere that we're not really sure what's happening. >> It's it's an odd relationship. um you know perhaps teachers and faculty and staff or even parents uh you know they treat they may treat you differently in your
011community because you happen to be one of a group of five that makes decisions that are very important for your community but I like to frame it as a positive I'm here I'm in this role the other four people are not like me and we all five have different strengths and that serves our community best and serves our kids best >> and As Micah said, the board of education is one entity and it's often misunderstood by the public and sometimes by board members themselves. I cannot take any action individually. Um, I can be out in the community and listen to questions and follow through, which is also key to building trust, making sure that even if I don't have the answer, that I make those connections and I follow back up with the person who
012asked the question just to let them know somebody would be getting in touch with them or making those connections. As I said, >> I love the idea that sometimes we are put in a situation of gathering information, but we still need some level of response back and I think you just used uh some version of we'll get back in touch with you. Someone will follow up. So, it's not that you did not hear them and that you're ignoring them, but you can't answer right now and there's a process in place. >> Well, and if you say that you're going to follow up with someone and you choose not to, then trust is going to be eroded as a result. So, it's important to make sure that you do keep your word and follow up and
013uh with with the individual that's asking the question >> and it's okay to um shift or shift the focus and and perhaps even responsibility to our CEO, to our superintendent. You know, if I don't know the answer, well, we should trust our team to have those those answers that they're the subject matter experts on. And uh so you know I may not say I'll follow up with you but I you know let me reach out to the superintendent and have them follow up or perhaps uh the treasurer or a building principal if you will. So it sounds like it's a very careful balancing because as board members you're out in the community always people are seeing you in their own board member even though you might be just getting your Saturday morning coffee or whatever
014that looks like. So trying to balance that out and kind of redirect back. We are a team and I think board members and superintendents neither one likes surprises. That's right. We like to be well informed and really help each other succeed in their roles. I think good superintendent recognize that you need board members in the community. Like Christie was saying, you you need to have board members out and about at different events so that people can see that their voice matters, their vote mattered. When a when a parent sees you in the community or at your child's spelling bee or especially at graduation, their voice, they can see that their voice matters as well. >> And people will inevitably approach you, you know, whether you're at a basketball game or at a, you know, a
015play or a a recital of some sort or in the grocery store. And um I know within the first week of my election, I had someone approach me said they were so glad they voted for me and they wanted me to change their daughter's bus stop. And again, that's where the role is often misinterpreted. That's not something I can do. But what I can do is contact the superintendent first because again, the board only has two employees, superintendent and the treasurer. And even though I may know the transportation manager in our community, it's best for me to contact the superintendent. He may say, "Go ahead, contact the transportation manager to put the community member in touch with the transportation member." Because it's a lot more complex in terms of uh putting together bus routes than
016just simply saying, "I want you to change, you know, the bus stop for this woman's daughter." So you know and and it sounds like if you I mean if without talking to your CEO or superintendent then you are kind of going around that yes which could erode trust between individual board members and the superintendent >> and we have to stay in our lane and and it's about governance you know governance is about asking questions is about listening and good governance is about asking really good questions and making sure that we get the information that's um been requested of us and we make those connections. So you touched a little bit about kind of some of the pieces here around good governance. If you think about the other structures or other processes that sort of maintain
017trust or build trust and credibility, what do you think some of those are? Christine, I'm going stay with you and I'll come to >> Yeah, absolutely. I think you know the the board needs to um have a vision um that's been developed in in concert with the superintendent, the treasurer and the community and develop a strategic plan and stick with those priorities. Once you align all of those things, it's much easier to make decisions that um can be difficult. Um and you can oftenimes point people to the strategic plan when they have questions about the direction of the district. And another thing that I found that was really helpful in building trust um was to make sure that you have good discussion at board meetings, particularly um when it comes to an important issue that
018that you're facing instead of simply voting. Um, it's important to have that discussion and to indicate why you're voting yes or no as a board member and making sure people understand that you did your due diligence, that you got the information and the options available. >> I'm going to stay right there because I love the idea of really having that, you know, public dialogue because sometimes when we go through the votes and it's just yes, yes, yes. People don't realize that there's a lot of behind the-scenes dialogue that's happening that you're only in the board meeting mostly witnessing the end point. Not just that we didn't do our due diligence, that we had these conversations and we are moving forward as a as a collective. >> Yes. And and and we need to realize that
019the board meeting is a meeting of the board in public. It's not necessarily a public meeting. The public's invited in obviously, but you are there to meet with your fellow board members and the superintendent and the treasurer and to have these discussions as you lead up to making a decision. Mike, what else would you add to that in terms of kind of the credibility, some of the behaviors and structures that you've seen or that you use in your own board practice? >> Yeah. Uh, Ohio is a very diverse state in terms of our school districts and the size and the amount of student populations. I like to say that you know whether your district has 25,000 students, 2500 or 500 when as a board you can say without a shadow of a doubt you've made
020the best decision for all of those students versus you know one particular student or a particular faculty member or a particular particular group in your community then you've done a good job and if you can get your community to understand like I understand perhaps you have uh certain um thoughts about this group of students, but we have to make a decision for all. If people understand that, they may disagree with you, but they'll recognize that you're serious about this. And and I do want to say, Rodney, that as far as, you know, elected officials in the state of Ohio goes because we are a governing um a governing body over a school district of minors. Uh people are very passionate about education. I think board members more than perhaps any other locally elected official in
021this state do uh have the most most uh professional uh uh training systems around through the Ohio School Boards Association and all the offerings that we have. I think we also do our due diligence uh more than other elected officials because we know how passionate people are and again we're making a long-term investment in our community with kids. We're making a two decade at least investment, right? So when when we make decisions, we want the public to know this is not a short-term thing. what we're doing today, whether it's building a a school building or thinking about curriculum, we want it to outlast us. We want the decisions we make today to be uh to be to last far longer than than any of us will be on the schoolboard or at least we hope
022and we also hope that those decisions uh today can you know set up our future students for success. >> Two things I hear kind of coming out here as themes. one is uh communication and being explicit in our communication as board members and really being intentional about that knowing that even though you're one person, people could misinterpret what you say to be uh sort of what the board thinks, not what Micah thinks, not what Christine thinks. And uh slight plug here, uh you just I think it was in June uh magazine, right? You wrote an article about communication. Can you talk a little bit about that? I thought it was very spot-on and maybe super relevant for our conversation today. >> Oh, thank you. Thank you. Yeah, you know, communication um is is it's more
023than words. Obviously, we talked about listening. We talked about the importance of strategic communication and making sure that you communicate the message. Um often, I think the research says you have to communicate the same message eight times for someone to actually um hear what you have to say and making sure that you're trying to reach different audiences. So um just communication and trust go hand in hand and if you are not effectively communicating if you are not effectively listening then trust is going to uh deteriorate and we all know it takes a while to build trust but um once it's gone it's gone and it's going to impact the students primarily of the district. >> Yeah. >> What else would you add to that >> about communication? Oh communication is so important and and uh
024it's going to vary by your community. Some communities, some districts, you know, will be fine with a the superintendent perhaps running a social media account. Other districts are going to hire um, you know, a full-ervice public because they're larger and and have a a larger, more complex system. We'll hire, you know, PR firms. But Christy brings up the important thing. You can't overcommunicate about the things that are happening. And so many things are changing around us in the landscape both in DC and in Columbus that we sometimes have to translate things that are dictated down to us, right? And we sometimes have to answer for the decisions made at the state house. And so, uh, we do our best to, you know, change that message. We're not going to, you know, tell perhaps the parents
025of the elementary school why the legislature changed a certain thing. and we have to have a new policy now. But we would want to communicate that uh very, you know, openly and uh you know without reserve to all of our faculty and staff perhaps, you know, so you just have to tweak how you do it, but you can never overcommunicate. >> Yeah, I think Micah that's a great point and no one has ever complained. I've been overcommunicated with. >> Yeah. Right. I mean, so something to think about as we continue that even if you get, you know, enough communication continuing to navigate that space >> and and the board can set the tone for communication. And I often say when I work with boards that um the students are watching, the parents are watching. The
026way that you communicate with one another is going to set the tone for the district. Making sure that you're communicating respectfully, professionally, civily. That doesn't mean you don't disagree, but there's a way to disagree and to have healthy dialogue and healthy conflict and that helps to foster positive communication as well. >> And that language, right? I mean, the language of what it needs to sound like to a student versus what it sound like to a parent, to our colleagues, and navigating all the various ways that we need to give feedback and input. >> Again, we are simply modeling the behaviors that we want for our students, right? And I love that you brought up the point about disagreeing, Christie, because some boards will air their dirty laundry, if you will, in public. And I think
027to myself, does that serve your students well? And I don't know necessarily that it does. And that's not to say that we can't disagree and and uh perhaps on even some larger fundamental issues, but when it gets down to the work of the board and what we do, >> it you know, you have to support the majority of the people that are in that role. And and it only helps your school district. You don't want your school district to look bad because that does not reflect well on your kids. >> It goes back to what you said about uh the idea that a school board meeting is a >> member. Say it again because I think it was so important. >> It's a this board of education, the meetings that the board of education holds,
028it's meeting in public, not a meeting of the public. So, um, oftentimes people just feel like it's a public meeting they can come to and air their complaints. And certainly there's agenda items that include public participation and they can bring things to the board for the board to listen to, but it's required by law for us to meet in public as boards. And um you know so even thinking about the way boards have their um seats arranged you know are you facing out and looking at the public and that seems to create a little bit of a barrier or are you really looking at one another so you can have good healthy discussion and dialogue across the table. So um something to consider as well. >> Those governance structures and processes either can lend themselves
029to being effective or maybe being a little less effective. >> Yes. board board meetings um for a lack of a better word should be boring in a in a way in in a certain way, right? U we you know I love our public participation which you know a lot of people don't realize that about schoolboard meetings but we have a lot of public participation too. You don't see that on television necessarily >> and that's great but this is the board's meeting. We're here to do the work of the school so that our kids and our faculty and staff can go back to work the next day and get back to school and keep and the district can keep running smoothly. And for me and what I've seen over the past few years especially with a
030lack of um respect in our civil discourse, I don't allow for at our meetings to uh any sort of arguing. uh there's too much of that uh in in the public sector already that if a a parent or certainly we respect their first amendment rights absolutely come you can say whatever you'd like >> to a certain extent at the board meetings but we're not here to argue with you >> about this we and especially if it comes to a student issue you know so we tend not to I I do not allow that at our board meetings I say thank you and you can sit down because per most of the time what that individual is bringing that's not the right place for it but again they want to to know that their their life
031they have agency that their voice matters and you may fundamentally disagree with that person in your community but when we're out in our communities when people know we listen uh and they hear us that matters and so perhaps it's a reflection of a good board when people come to your meetings >> the The other part that I think I heard a little bit around beyond communication is this idea of of a board like learning together. >> Yeah. >> What do you what do you think it looks and sounds like for a board, you know, oftenimes I agree with you, Mike, a board beings should feel boring, but there should be some not just sharing out, not just discussion of agenda items, but their collective learning and the structures that go around that are powerful. I
032mean, Christine, when you think about kind of the the board learning, what what what do you think about here? >> Yeah. uh you know the board members I served with all came from different you know perspectives different professions different walks of life and it's important for us to take that into consideration the expertise that they can bring and listen to one another. It's always good for the board especially when there's a new superintendent or treasurer to have a leadership development workshop or work session. Again, it would it's open to the public, but it's an opportunity for the board and for the superintendent and the treasurer to get on the same page um to make sure that roles and responsibilities are understood, clarified, expectations are set, and again aligning with the strategic plan, which is really
033the road map for the district. it helps to kind of level set everything and then um to make sure that as you move into a new school year that you know which direction you're going as much as possible. >> So structures and processes and protocols really matter in this space. >> Yes. When I was when I was elected, I think most board members who are elected um want to be good board members and I asked our superintendent, "What can I do to be a good board member?" And he gave me two pieces of advice. One was to ask questions. ask a lot of questions and a lot of good questions and to make sure that I understood policy.