001[music] >> Hello everybody. Welcome to Clock Town Chronicles. My name is Michael Herbert. I'm town manager here. And um yeah, I would like to welcome you to I believe this is our eighth episode of Clock Town Chronicles. Um really want to thank the people here at WACA TV, Paul Bowden, Barbara Chisholm, um everybody behind the scenes who makes uh makes this production what it is. I have a really special episode today. Um traditionally, what I've done is I've brought in people in Ashland and we've talked about the history and how it really informs um a lot of the future. But today, we're going to do things a little bit different. I have three good friends from around the country here um to talk about local government um and their their experiences interviewing and getting to
002know city managers, town managers, uh public works directors, um you know, politicians, people uh who really really do the work of local government day in and day out um in cities and towns all across the country. So, they've got such a great and diverse uh array of experience and wisdom that they've gleaned not only from these interviews, but uh in their own lives and in their own experiences. So, without further ado, I'm going to introduce them um in alphabetical order, gentlemen. I I had to do this fairly, right? You know, can't have can't have any fun >> First name or last name? Uh sorry, Chad. >> [laughter] >> Last name. So, um so we'll we will start and you will see why Chad uh said that. But uh Jonathan Mason, uh Jonathan is the founder
003and CEO of Gentry & Company. It's a government consulting firm focused on municipal innovation, housing strategy, and economic development. And he works with local governments and regional partners to design practical strategies that improve the operations, strengthen economic competitiveness, and move community priorities from planning to implementation. Um and through the Gentry podcast, which that's how I got to know Jonathan. He's interviewed over 100 public officials on municipal best practices, housing delivery, economic development strategy. It's given him a national perspective on the challenges facing cities, counties, and public leaders, again, across the country. Next, we have Seth Winterhalter. Um Seth is the president of Halting Winter Municipal Solutions, and he's also the host of the Halting Winter podcast. Um Seth, he's a keynote speaker, executive coach, and the host of the Halting Winter podcast, which is where
004I got to know him. Uh where he has interviewed hundreds of city managers, county administrators, department heads, uh public service leaders from all across North America. Um and through those conversations, Seth explores the fascinating journeys into municipal leadership, the realities of serving in these high-pressure public roles, and the inspiring work happening every day to build stronger, more thriving communities. And as the president of Halting Winter Municipal Solutions, he speaks nationally on leadership, organizational culture, and communication specifically for the world of local government. And Chad, Chad Wright, last but not least. >> Last but not least. Listen. >> Now, Seth Seth shares my pain with the W name. >> I was about to say, guys, we're neck Neck >> um Neck and neck. >> [laughter] >> Chad is a a founder and coach of Forward Partners
005and he's the host of the Leader Lab and Leading Thriving Cities. Um I got to know Chad when he came to a Mass Managers Association conference back in the spring and uh just had the fortune of sitting at the same table with some pre-work that we were doing before the conference and got to know each other and uh was on his podcast later and um just really gotten to know him over the over the last year. And now a a published author as well. Um >> [laughter] >> I think as as of yesterday is that is it yesterday officially? Yep. Yeah, last night we had the launch party. It was a blast. Congratulations. Congratulations. So gentlemen, just the format here since this is different than the way I usually do it. Um I'm going to
006start us off when we've got three guests. We're going to have a couple questions and then uh I blatantly stole something from Jonathan uh where we'll go into a lightning round type of experience. Um first thing that comes out of your out of your minds and and uh when I ask you some of these questions >> I know, isn't it? That's exactly what I said. So uh So let's launch away, gentlemen. And uh you know what? Whoever wants to jump in first, we'll we'll start there. Um but uh actually I'm going to I'm going to throw a curveball at you cuz I sent you a couple questions, but I'm going to I'm going to ask you a different one. Um What do you notice now in like when you're looking at a city council meeting
007>> [snorts] >> uh that you probably wouldn't have noticed 5 years ago now that you've had a chance to interview and talk to all these different public sector leaders? What are those little small things that you think other people might miss? Hm. Who Who wants to jump in there? I think for me I'll I'll jump in here guys. It's not a small thing necessarily, but I've learned how vital a city council and their ability to get along matters to the health of a city. Like it's funny my team knew nothing about municipal government before they started working with me. I knew nothing about it before we started doing this work. And it's really funny to me that like we're all looking at different places we might want to live and the first thing we're looking
008up is city council. We're like how do they get along? How do they cooperate? Cuz a council doesn't have to agree on everything, but they have to agree on how they're going to go about disagreeing. And that ability to just have civil conversations to set the tone for the city. You know, do they support the staff? Do they support the city manager? That kind of stuff is just vital because all it takes is one or two council members that don't believe in staff, that don't believe in city council, that don't believe in you know, decorum. It wrecks everything and all of a sudden you have a city that can't seem to get things done. And I've just learned how vital that is and that's like the first thing we're looking up now when we look
009at a new city to live in is how do they get along? Can they at least have a conversation? Do you see them joking before the city council meeting? It's always those signs like when we facilitate a retreat when I walk in the room and there's jokes happening all over the place and people taking selfies with each other. I'm like okay, this is a good team. When I walk in and it is dead silent, I'm like ah, we got work to do. And I think city councils are the same. If they're joking and talking to each other and smiling and laughing, I'm like okay, they there's some connection here. There's some relationship. And I think that relational piece man, it's everything. So it's I don't know if that's a small thing, but that is definitely
010something I am always conscious of now is how does the city council get along? Cuz it matters. Yeah, yeah. And when you say support, I was going to ask you, you know, what does that mean exactly in your words? You know, support. And if you're talking about that informality, you know, When I think about city council, are you talking about like supporting staff? Yeah, yeah, when you mentioned that. Yeah, so I think city council supporting staff is pretty vital because if they're part of the same organization, they they serve two different roles. And for me what support looks like is a city council that understands their role and their lane and they trust the staff to be in their role and their lane. And it's when I see city councils get down in the weeds,
011when they start questioning little decisions, when they get too deep into it, just it doesn't work because it's not designed to work that way. Their job is policy, their job is vision, where are we headed, what are we doing? The city's job is to then execute on that vision. And if you get into execution from a city council level, you're creating so much stress and that's what I don't think they understand. It's like every email, every text message, heart rates are instantly going through the roof, even if it's a oh hey, just checking on this thing. You're just sending a text. The staff is freaking out a little bit and so that that connection is often missed and so I think support looks like allowing them to do their jobs and trusting them and not
012not looking for things to be wrong, not trying to to prove the staff wrong and I've seen some situations where there was some genuine incompetence at the staff level that needed to be figured out. It's insanely rare. Most city staffs are some of the most creative, competent, smart people you're ever going to meet. Let them do their jobs. I think that's what it looks like to me is is hands-off, we're going to set policy, long as y'all are meeting the metrics and doing thing, go, have fun and what can we do to help you do that better? I think that's what support looks like. Interesting. You know, especially noticing some of those smaller indications that that that's happening. Seth, Jonathan, what what about you? Do you do you see a similar or do you look
013for similar things in city council meetings or is it something different that you're that you're looking at now? Well, I I think our relationship is is very important and the first thing when you ask the question that that kind of came to me was uh what's the the the regime or faction? Sometimes you have council members that were elected at a certain time, there was something going on and there was a push from the community to get something achieved, whereas there could be an an older guard that had a different view on that and seeing how that interplay happens. And then the the other thing, maybe the the inverse of that is when a council has a lot of longevity when they that continuity can be very important for for getting things done. So I
014love to to take a look at when and why the council were elected and how long they've been um been serving because you you start to to learn some things even just from from the the work I do in my day job. I've seen certain things. Well, their council elections are are coming up this November, so this housing deal is trying to get hurried up and and get through because there could be a new regime coming in. So I do think both that that tenure and the the I mean I can't think of a better word but regimes or schools of thoughts in certain council members really play how policy is is pushed and what is important and is pushed by their constituents. Yeah, that's a that's a good point. What about you, Seth? Well,
015I think Chad and Jonathan have have brought up things that are my mind goes to first and I think are super helpful and and serious for both sides, staff and council. Here's here's something that's I'm going to take us out of even right field, maybe over to the across the street to the hockey to the hockey right. >> Okay. This is this is odd. Bruins are good. Yeah, right. Exactly. W- when we I I interviewed Mike Winder who's the city manager in Mill Creek, Utah and we talked about his uh town hall and what they're doing with it. And it brought to mind something that I think uh it is someone outside of local government, we don't realize that the place of government is intimidating. And maybe I I see this because I live in
016Olympia, which is the capital city. And if you've ever been to a a capital building, it's intimidating. If you've ever been to Washington, D.C., it's intimidating. It makes the common person uh who goes there feel out of their league and already sets you in a position of fear and emotional kind of trepidation. And I think capital buildings are supposed to do that. Are town halls, I'm not sure. And I bring this up because Mike Winder in West uh in Millcreek, Utah, they built a new town hall that's basically the bottom floor is their their town farmers market. The top floor is basically like their meeting space for meetings that overlooks these grand mountains. So, people use it without the engagement of local government, per se, isn't its formal ways. And I thought this is such
017a beautiful way cuz one of the things I think when we come to city council meetings, the residents who are not government people at all, who barely even know that their local government functions, who we take all these modern services for granted, they're coming usually with heightened emotion. It's usually negative. It's usually something that they're frustrated with or afraid of. And and then they come into an intimidating place that they've never been that feels and then again, they see the council and they look like they're there supposed to be there. They're up on their high arches, right? Or or their big seats. And then the staff looks like they know they've been there a thousand this is where they work. This is just the place. And so, it makes the resident, I think, very in
018a in a place where they're going to have a negative probably emotional reaction to whatever they're geared to. And if we can rethink space, if we can rethink how we use this and and just like don't get comfortable because you've been there a thousand times, but think what does that look like for a person coming in maybe for the first time ever into this place about this issue. And so I think it's it is good to set the scene like Chad said with just relationship and remember that we're here to to do well for our city. And what Jonathan said, I think sometimes you have you have to remember you got elected for something and now you're elected and that thing's not going to go through or it is going to go through, but now
019you've got four years on the council to to make sure water happens and project and other things go forward that you might not even have any idea that your local government does. Yeah. All have something to do. How are we using the place and the space? Yeah, and what I'm hearing is from all three of you it to synthesize it a little bit is just the importance of of process and um creating a relatable experience for people. You know, one of the things and you probably see this or hear this from the people that you interview is how do we get messaging out better? And I am now of the mindset that it's it's not necessarily that we need to find more vehicles to get to get the message out. We need to change the
020message that we're sending. Which is really how does what we do every day relate to you and your quality of life, you know, Mr. and Mrs. Smith, you know, it like how does it connect with how you're living your day, how you're going about about your life. And I think to your point some people do see town hall or city hall as an intimidating places. They are especially here in New England where you've got some really old ones, grand, very, you know, elaborate structures that just, you know, it's not like a place where you're going to go eat dinner, you know, quite frankly. So, that's that's really really interesting insights and just how process, you know, the in I don't want to say informality, but relatability and approachability. Maybe that's the the best >> That's
021a good word is approachability. You know, it's funny in y'all's answers, Jonathan's specifically your answer, got me thinking about what makes a great council member. Cuz so many of them are elected because it's like, I'm mad about this thing and I'm going to go fix it, right? And then they get in there and they find out, oh, this is a much more complex problem than I thought, or this is unsolvable, or it's going to take a decade, you know. And it got me thinking about what makes a great council member. We're talking about the relational piece and the the welcoming piece. And I think so much of it is curiosity. Like, can a council member get in there for a reason and then have the curiosity to say, but I don't know everything. Help me
022understand. Like, that's I think what makes really great council members is the one that can pivot from I'm here to solve all the problems to how can I help? How can I learn? And I think that you become more welcoming when you're more curious cuz you're more open just everybody around you. And I I think that's really interesting. I never thought about the they are they're different regimes and different seasons and how can they come together as this disparate group to form something that is welcoming. I love that. Golly, having a farmers market as part of your town hall, I'd never heard of that. That's incredible. That is the coolest idea. Yeah. Yeah, there's there's some creative, really unique institutions in local government that are, you know, idiosyncratic to to that community. And that's just
023what makes local government so awesome, I think. Um So, just moving on to the next question. One thing I really wanted to know, so across all all you've had tons of conversations and across all of them, uh the ones that you've had with the public service leaders, has there been a moment when someone said something that just fundamentally changed how you understand the work? And and if if you did have that moment, what was it and why did it stick out for you? We'll just Yeah, do it like popcorn. Whoever wants to jump in. Okay, Jonathan, we'll start with you. How's that? >> [laughter] >> That that that that that that that that that that that that that that What Valen told. Well, um I've had some amazing conversations and I've been thankful for every
024person that that takes the, you know, the 2 and 1/2 hours it takes to to put put together uh a great body of work. So, I wanted to to start with that first and foremost. Uh but, there was one conversation that that really stuck out to me. Uh it was Vince Jones-Dixson. Uh he is a commissioner of Multnomah County uh out in Oregon. And uh the reason it stuck out to me uh and anybody that's heard my podcast, I always say it, I I truly love when I feel like a municipal leader or somebody in in leadership is called to do the work. Uh and he was simply just that. Uh so, uh he grew up in the the county in which he um uh is a commissioner now. And uh one of the things
025that uh was was very much important to him was his brother. And his brother, uh what was important to him was supporting the youth. Uh there was a underserved community uh in which uh they they lived in. And his brother really wanted to pour, I believe it's called the Rockwood community, wanted to pour into that community and specifically the youth. Uh and he told uh Vince that his dream was to create a program uh that supported young people and gave them options uh to to make sure they're they're making the the right decisions. But unfortunately, his brother was uh senselessly murdered. Um and he was shot. And when the emergency people showed up to the actual scene, they unfortunately didn't do anything. They sat there and they actually watched him pass away. Uh this was
026a tragic moment. And and later his wife actually was doing a community project. I believe she was getting her master's degree and she went back to the community and did a town hall. This town hall was was attended by 40 people and they wanted to to really get the essence of the Rockwood community. And while he was there, while she was there, two people saw vents and came up to him and said, "Hey, I was there when your brother was murdered. I saw what happened and the emergency responders didn't address him and I actually have the video." So in a large county 40 people that showed up to community event, two people actually had the video. So he watched the video and saw the emergency responders not um not give him the services that they
027need. And what did he do? Not get angry. And this is when at a time when people were calling to defund the police and people were calling to to not He's an African-American man for there to be some some sort of divide with the police. He did the complete opposite. He did a listening tour for 3 years talking to emergency responders, police officers, the the city council to understand what 21st 20th century 21st century policing actually looked like and what it was supposed to be. And that led him to to to then run and become a commissioner. Uh and he was able to make sure that things like this didn't happen. Not from a place of pointing the finger, but from a place of understanding and having that conversation. Uh and fast forward to to
028now, uh he was able to help uh a program uh that uh his brother uh wanted to create, create it, and get over $2 million for that program to support the children of uh the Rock community. So, when I think of that story, I think of somebody that was truly called uh to to lead their community. Somebody that didn't take the easy route, which is hate and um and pointing the finger, but shows understanding. And leaders that are called and choose understanding are the people that I want to have leading my communities. Yeah, that Wow, that's a powerful. That was That must have been a powerful moment at that, you know, when hearing that story. Um I literally got chills. Um you as you know, I I do uh the hour-long pre-interview. Uh so, I
029knew the story. But on the podcast, there's a moment you can see me visually get chills and seize up hearing the story the second time. That's how powerful it was. Wow. Wow. Seth, what you Did you have an experience like that or or something different? I think Jonathan wins the experience. >> going to say, follow that up, Seth. Go ahead. >> [laughter] >> It's not a competition. I think >> Says the guy with the gold medal. >> [laughter] >> I think for me, it's the it's all of the It's the build. It's all of these interviews in the same thread that weaves between them all. It's basically this with the municipal leaders, uh now over 300 and what, 25 plus episodes. It's the dichotomy. It's the dichotomy of people in this profession that love this
030missional work. That they are that I mean I meet I get to meet some of the best people I think in the world that just love places and people and that's what this work is. And yet it's the dichotomy in today's age of incivility, in today's age of whatever's kind of negative um in the media, whether that's social media, whether that's verbal media, it is the truth. And and so they they feel like they're kind of fighting they love what they're doing, but they feel like they're fighting this almost invisible wall. Maybe it's not even in their community. And some people are they go my community is awesome. It's this pressure almost nationally or globally that's just weighing down on us that's so it's creating burnout, it's creating just a a heaviness, I think. Even
031as they interact, maybe their city's good, but they're interacting with people with the conferences and whatnot. It's just this heaviness of man, we're trying to do good work, hardly anyone knows and appreciates it. And and we have to deal with, you know, Fox and CNN and everyone else and Facebook and I just the diatribe of everything stinks. And and I think it's that dichotomy that I'm concerned about. And again, that's why the podcast exists. I think that's, you know, the thing that three of us are trying to do is share the amazing work that is happening at the local level. I I don't Again, I think state and federal are important, but the local level is the government of the people. You get to go in, no matter how intimidated you feel by your town
032hall, you get to go in anytime you want and say your peace. And what what where else can you do that? And and I think it's powerful. And you can go get involved. That's the more important thing. You can be There's commissions and count all kinds of things, volunteer opportunities to vote. I mean, and your vote matters in significant ways. And and and these people love their place and they love they love their neighbors. That's the other thing. These people, local government, are serving their neighbors. They're not serving some idea and policy. These are the people who are bringing you the essential needs, water, trash. Can you imagine not living with those things? Well, I mean, you know, it's amazing. You you you hear the you hear the complaints when it doesn't get picked up,
033you know, because that's when people realize it. It's like, "Oh gosh, the the trash is usually picked up on Tuesdays or Wednesdays and it hasn't and it's a hot summer day." Um I always refer to local government as the foundation of society because I got to be honest, my toilet stops flushing, it is probably a day before I'm flipping things over and setting them on fire. Like, I'm starting riots, all right? Cuz I need that toilet to flush. And so, I think it's amazing how these these things we take for granted are truly the foundation because we would not we would not do well without them. I think Seth really hit something there. It's It is local government. That's why we all do this. It's magic to to interact with these professionals who are so
034creative, so smart, and just so good at what they do and they're passionate about it. And that's It's so exciting to see. Yeah, [snorts] yeah. Chad, is there a particular moment that sticks out for you? There's I think kind of like Seth's, it's not a particular moment, but it's a series of moments that all tell the same story. Um for me, it is when we're interviewing people that are late in their career and we always talk about what would you go back and tell yourself. What What's the one thing? What's the one piece of advice you would have for yourself at the beginning of this long decades-long journey, you know? And there's always some version of I wish I had learned to slow down. I wish I had learned to take care of myself. I
035wish I had learned to to be present in the moment and not just miss everything focused on what's next, you know? And that learning to take care of yourself in the process is the thing that's been missing, I think. Um because you see, it's funny, I talked to a city manager one day and we're sitting there talking and he said um he said, you know, I can tell you when I was appointed and I can tell you when I left. And I can tell you my kids' ages in that range. And he said, I don't remember hardly anything about their their childhood in that those ages. And that's heartbreaking. And these are the people that are making our society work, and yet they are they're they're getting run over by this career. And so this
036all kind of culminated, I think I we have this same conversation a lot because we we talk a lot about sustainability and how do we create that for ourselves. And this all culminated, I interviewed Bradley Ford. He was the he's former city manager of Waco, Texas. And it was an incredible interview cuz Bradley's young. And he ran into some health challenges because of the stress of the job. And he eventually had to step back and he finally he he did a little mini step back and it was like, oh, I'm going to change everything. He changed nothing. Spoiler alert, and the health problems came back and he finally realized doing things the way I'm doing things, all the muscle memory I have built up that has made him highly successful in this this job, it
037can't keep happening or else. And so he he was willing to step back. He was willing to say, you know, what? I'm going to to resign from this position. I'm going to take some time off. I'm going to take care of myself. And then I'm going to come back at it ready to rock and roll. And that ability to step back, I think most of us were taught that retreat is failure. And yet retreat is how you create a sustainable career. That ability to step back so you can keep going forward. I think that matters. And so that just that theme of people at the end of their careers saying, I should have done this differently. Mhm. I cannot I can't stop hearing that because I think it's the reality for most of us. And
038so it's I think the reason we dive into all these conversations is to try to help people see, hey, you're not alone out there. You are not by yourself. You're not the only one dealing with this and there's got to be a better way. And so that is where we're trying to get to is what is that better way and how do we embrace that? So that's that for me it's a series of moments that tell that same consistent story that we have to learn to take care of ourselves in the process. And if we can learn it earlier in our career rather than later, life's going to be better. And so that's that's what we're trying to get people to. For sure. You know, cuz you know, regret only goes one way, unfortunately, you
039know, um and >> I I've I've had similar conversations, you know, where you try to think about, okay, what was that sixth birthday like, you know, and it's it's hard sometimes. Yes. >> You know, for me I think, you know, almost like a model where the stress is in in these positions, these town manager, city manager positions, are you know, you're sitting in this gap between resident expectations, your select board or council's expectations, and the employees' expectations. And um then you don't have um a level and I'll just use above you or or or under you that you can share this stuff with. So it's like the pressure's coming in from these different sides and then you don't have a relief valve, you know, going up or down. >> Yeah. That's kind of the model
040I see in my mind um when I think about where the stress emanates from. Would you all agree with that or do you see see it from a different perspective, maybe? I would 100% agree. We have a visual we show in our presentations. We show an org chart. And it's a normal and you got your your front line keeping everything nice and firm. You got your middle management, your executive team, and ultimately that crazy person at the top. And then we do a little magic trick where we flip that upside down. And now you've got this this upside down pyramid that is resting on that one crazy person. And uh it's I think for a lot of city managers they look they go, "Oh my god." It's like, "Yeah, you have the weight of this
041city bearing down on you." And then we we do the next slide, which is a little line of like five to seven circles underneath that. And what I try to get people to understand is you not only have the weight of the city and the staff bearing down, you then have pressure coming from below. And understanding that, I like we're doing a council retreat next week, and I love showing this to councils cuz I'm like, "Guys, even in the best case scenario, you are putting pressure on your manager." And so that is that's why I mean the the tenure here in Texas, I know I think Austin Bleace in Jersey Village, Texas did some research, and it's just right around 4 years is the the tenure for a city manager. That is so short. That
042is such a I mean I I refer to y'all as being like itinerant preachers. You just go town to town to town, and eventually something happens, you know, because that that's so much weight to bear, and I think that's where that lack of sustainability comes from. Is it's not a model that we're really built for. And so that's where we've got to figure out how do we relieve some of that pressure? How do we make sure that it's not just external, but internal? How are you taking care of yourself so you can show up, and you can deal with that long term? And it's I think you're you're right about that model. It is there there's tremendous weight coming from all sides, and that's why community matters. You guys need each other. Like y'all have
043got to find better ways of being honest. Because I've been to a lot of of, you know, state city management conventions, and I see it a lot where everybody's sitting around going, "Hey, how's your city? How are things going?" "Oh god, we're so good. We're so busy, man. We're growing. We got this and this and this." And internally I'll talk to them on the side, and they're like, "Yeah, I don't know if I want to be a city manager anymore." I'm like, "What? Go talk to your friends. Why are you telling me?" >> [laughter] >> Yeah, but they don't want to do that. They don't want to appear weak, right? Yeah. There there is an element of that, I think, in in all the associations. Um yeah, [snorts] Jonathan, Seth, anything anything to add around
044that? I I think again, you guys have nailed it. I think it is again, it's that it's the weight. It's the reality and yet there are um I think it's just the permission. I talk about that in most of my keynotes and in my coaching. It's you guys should give yourself permission to be human. Yes. I think you guys are you guys are in that's the other thing, especially for the city managers, uh county administrators, you're CEOs of these massive organizations that have so many components. I mean, that's the thing about local government. It's not like you're doing one thing. I mean, just if you had to just make sure water happened, that's a job of its own. And yet you've got water and trash and you've got every festival under, you know, God's green
045earth and you've got I mean, every component. And yet you've got and you every one of them's got to be perfect. Uh because again, we we just said it. You'll hear about it if it's not. And so that's a lot of weight and it's a lot of responsibility and it's not like you're, you know, you're you're given some knockoff, you know, delivering some knockoff toy that's going to be put in the garage in 2 weeks. Like these are the vital things of life. And so how do you do that? How how do you I What's always interesting to me and what's kind of opened my eyes to local government? Maybe we'll get into more of this in in the next question, but it's you oversee present realities Yeah. and future. Though that is so much
046weight and that is so many I mean, your brains I just my brain kind of turns to jelly just thinking about that thought from a macro level of all the present-day projects and realities. And yet you got to think about infrastructure that's 50 years away. And are Do we have enough money for this? Are we planning for this? Are we building this? I mean, it's a it's an inspiring work, but it is it's a crazy work, and you got to be a little crazy to dance. Yeah. Yeah, craziness is a good word. >> quick, Seth, this is why I think city managers need to spend more time with business owners. Because I used to describe owning a business as the dumbest job on the planet Earth. 90% of us fail. And that's that's crazy odds
047when you start a business like, "Oh, I'm going to do this forever." No, you're not. You're probably going to die in the process. It's a crazy job. And then I met city managers, and I'm like, "I think that's crazier." Cuz you're like, "I want seven bosses. Let's do that." You know? And so I think, honestly, entrepreneurs and city managers need to spend more time together because it's a similar journey of you're living in the present. Oh god, I got to make payroll today. I got to send this email. I got to do this. And also, where we headed in the next 20 years? And what's the next big thing in It's this It's a tension point. And I think they can learn from each other. They can lean on each other. They can love on
048each other. And help each other figure out how to do that. And so I'm I'm As we're talking about this, I'm like, "How do we start connecting more entrepreneurs and CEOs with municipal CEOs to see what what synergy can happen there?" I think that would be interesting. Mhm. Yeah, I think that's a great call call out. Um that that idea of dealing with the the ins and outs and the day-to-day, but also understanding you have that existential threat of whatever it is looming around the corner. AI's coming and changing uh the in the particular industry that I I'm in or um there are are strikes that are happening around me. Uh like so like those existential threats. Uh but having to to understand the the day-to-day reality. Um and then the other part of what
049you said I thought was something uh important. Having uh actually both times you you you you spoke, Chad, actually spoke about it. Uh it's having that network of people uh and that connection where you can be vulnerable. Uh I know Seth does some some work around it, too, but just having that space that you can actually uh commiserate, share ideas, uh and talk through from a place of vulnerability um that that is what is going to create that that longevity uh that that needs to to to be had to literally be day in and day out, but then also prepare for the 50-year-old infrastructure that is going to hit your desk once you kick the can as far as you can go. >> [laughter] >> Yeah. Yeah, it's um it I think part of um
050part of that pressure and part of part of what can lead to burnout is when you just have so many things to do and you don't have enough time to do them. Because I this is the worst situation I feel like any organization can be in is when you're doing so many things that you can't do them any of them well. Nobody wants to go to work knowing that they're going to be delivering a C+ product even though they're giving A+ effort just because they don't have the resources, whether that be time or or or or whatever, you know, just yeah, hours in the day to do that. Um and I see it that happening with a lot of local governments because the demands on local governments are coming are becoming more and more, I
051I think, vocal or they're coming out to light more. And the funding associated with that coming from different organization or different levels of government, I should say, like state and federal is not coming in the way it used to, as well. So, we're getting this squeeze and it's it can be very frustrating um as I'm sure you're hearing. Um I Are you hearing similar stories or something different that's causing causing um more of that friction. I and I would say the friction between society and government just in general. Well, I think you've nailed it. Is that burnout is really two main branches connected to the same root. It is overwhelm and underwhelm. You are overwhelmed and like you said, only able to really do C+ work because there's just too much to get done. Or
052you're underwhelmed where you feel like you're just a part of the bureaucratic, you know, red tape pushing one pile of rocks to another location and pulling it back again. So, it's underwhelm and overwhelm, but both of those have the same root and that is worth, value, appreciation. Humans desire to be seen, heard, and valued. We desire to be and that's why I think what brings people into local government. I'm always baffled at 99% of the interviews I do where I say, "Did you have any awareness of local government growing up? When did you know you want to become a city manager?" Yesterday. Like, they No one knows about local government even those who serve at the highest levels of it is that they're coming into it. And so, and so what but when they did,
053when they learned about it, when they got an opportunity, an internship, etc., all of a sudden it was like a flies to What do they say? Honey? Like, it was like, "I got to do this. This is so missional. It's so powerful. It's so motivating." And then life happens and the overwhelm and the underwhelm and and I think that's what we have to look at. Are we helping people within the organization? Are we helping those outside of the organization, our residents, our business owners, etc.? Are we connected to what we're trying to do and that's make thriving places. And and let's see our people. Let's see the Let's apprecia- have a more appreciation. I think that's a part of the story is that yeah, that burnout happens because we're overwhelmed or we're underwhelmed and and
054leaders specifically Okay, you know, a handful of the conversations I've had. I remember Kevin Phelps who now retired a city manager in Glendale, Arizona said, I am not the CEO of this organization as the city manager. He goes, I am the CCEO. I'm the chief culture officer. My job is to make sure the culture of this place is awesome. The people love to the highest of the lowest levels, they love showing up for work. They see what they're doing to make a difference. They feel connected to that by the very work that they do and that fires me up. Yeah. Yeah, that's that's that's super inspiring. You know, when you hear hear that you you hear the energy, you know, kind of coming through. It's really um it's really nice to be in the presence
055of somebody like that that that can throw that out. Um Is your Let me I want to throw something out here, too. I think the you know, you described the the lack of civility, the the public has their opinions. We got we got so much happening and it's easy to point to those things and go, well, of course I'm burned out. And I think what we have to understand through the work we've done, I think what we've learned is that burnout is not an external fight, it's an internal fight. Because one of the things you said is when you have too much to do and not enough time to do it. That is usually a sign you're burned out. You're so overwhelmed. What's the priority? How do we How do we tackle all this? How
056do we get it all done, you know? When you take care of yourself, you show up and you have the overwhelm under control because you're you're taking care of yourself. You see things for what they are and you're able to prioritize and you're able to say, you know what, it's okay if we don't get all this done today. It is okay. It doesn't mean I'm a failure. I'm good. We're going to get as much as we can done with a certain quality level and the rest will still be there tomorrow. That's what's required because when we when we feel like we're broken or we're not enough, God, we're going to try to prove that we're okay. Oh, yeah. Excuse me. Choke on my own words, literally. Uh we are we're going to try to prove
057we're okay by getting everything done and it all being a success. And it's not possible. It's not sustainable. And so the things are going to happen externally. That is your job. That is 100% reality. The question is what version of you is showing up to deal with that? Are you taking care of yourself enough to prioritize to keep the overwhelm at bay and then make sure you're winning that battle? Because then you're able to actually lead. Then you're not leading from a place of fear and I've got to get it all done to prove something. You're leading from a place of hope and confidence. And guys, we got this. We're going to get done what we're getting done today. We're going to work hard. We're going to get there. And our theory is we want
058everybody to go home tired but fulfilled. And y'all have talked about today like the the fact that being a part of something bigger than yourself matters. And I think that's where the fulfilled comes from. I think we're real good at the tired part. Man, we When was the last time a public servant didn't go home exhausted at the end of the day? It's every day, right? We're so good at that. But the fulfilled comes from finishing that day and going, "You know what? We mattered today." And that the the CCO, the chief culture officer, right? I I was thinking of it as a chief cheerleading officer. Like to be that person going around, "Guys, you mattered today. I'm so proud of you. Congratulations. Let's do this again tomorrow." God, we need that. And that energy,
059that drive only comes from knowing we mattered. And the only way we ever tap into that is if we take care of ourselves. And we have to learn to prioritize us because we're the we're this tension point, right? If you're a city manager, God, you're you've got the citizens pulling on you, you've got the council pulling on you, you've got the the staff pulling on you, you've got national crap coming in like y'all talked about, putting pressure and pulling on you. You have to manage you because you are at the center of all that tension. And we desperately need to to I think flip that and say, "Man, how are we, instead of managing all that crap, how are you managing you?" Cuz if you get that down, you can manage all the other stuff.
060I know you can. It's just taking care of us, which that's that's so hard to do. We don't prioritize ourselves enough. What What do you think the role of self-awareness is in in a successful city or town manager? Off the charts. It's the number one thing Everything? >> [laughter] >> Yeah. Maybe expound a little bit on on why that is. From your perspective. >> you have to In In my personal opinion, I feel like you have to understand where you are, um what your We hear it a a a hundred ten times. Uh I'm in this world to to not play politics. I'm in here to execute on the things that are getting given and put in front of me. Uh but then you have to truly know yourself well enough to know what do
061I actually think about something and how does that affect the way that I deliver it? Uh what do I think this council uh person thinks about that and how does that affect how I deliver it? What are the the needs of staff and what do they think of these things? Do they feel like these are um just mandates that are pushed down and they they don't believe in? Like how do I feel about that? So, truly understanding your your viewpoints, um your, you know, at times even your your your biases, and your positioning around what you're actually doing, and then being able to quell those and um take a a viewpoint of, "Okay, this is why council's doing this. So, this is why I need to get my staff behind this." Or I know my
062staff doesn't feel supported um on this, but this is something that I know uh we need to do. So, how am I going to push that away to uh get us through? All right. >> Yep. He's a hundred percent right about that. I think it's That awareness of how you're doing is uh man, I I had somebody text me the other day cuz we're talking more and more we're presenting about some new ideas, and we're talking about these four different levels of leadership. And I had a guy text me and he said, "Is it possible for a leader to think they're a heroic leader, but actually they're average or unhealthy?" And I'm like, "Dude, all the freaking time. Like, I cannot tell you the last time I met a leader who didn't have some of
063that going on, you know?" And I think there's so often we think we're showing up and it's funny cuz you can look at at city council reviews and man, "Oh, I got great reviews. Yeah, we got the the new target in town and we did this and the council loves me." And meanwhile, staff is stressed out because they're not showing up as a great leader. And I think that happens a lot and self-awareness is the only thing that's going to help us understand that we are not being experienced the way we want to be. Yeah. >> And you start to see signals of that. You start to see moments and I work really hard on self-awareness and I had somebody ask me about this yesterday and I said, "You know, one of the things I'm
064most proud of." And usually if a person walks in the room, they're like, "I'm the most self-aware person in the room." They're usually the least self-aware person in the room. But they were asking about like my own growth journey and I said, "You know, one of the things I am proud about is I'm seeing my self-awareness increase and what I'm seeing is I'll still do a dumb thing. I'll say something. I'll be in inconsiderate of others, whatever it is. But I'm seeing it like in real time as it as it's happening and go, "Ooh, that's not what I wanted." And I'm able to spot that and fix it right there in the moment. Say, "You know what? Here's what you probably heard. I'm so sorry, it's not what I meant." I've I've seen it in
065my my relationship with my wife where where that that gap between dumb thing is said and dumb thing is fixed is closing and getting tighter. Right. >> Uh and that is helping so much. I see it with my team. I see it with my clients and and I think that's a sign of of self-awareness increasing, but it takes so much intentional work to actually make that a reality. Uh and so I think self-awareness is the whole ballgame if you're leading. If you are not working on your self-awareness, you're leaving so much on the table and doing so much unintentional damage that you're not even aware of. And I think that's the the other piece of this is we we have to know that how we show up matters. And that self-awareness is going to help
066us figure that out. Yeah, it and it's you talk about that gap between, you know, catching it and knowing it. I mean, I still find myself now catching it after the fact. You know, sometimes you know, I've got a couple decisions I've made recently and it's just like that you know, hindsight's always 20/20, but you see the pattern that started running. And it's like, "Oh, why didn't I catch that before?" But you do have that awareness now moving forward. Um Yeah, does that does that um bring to mind any other points from any of our other guests? I know Jonathan is got um was having some technical issues. Hopefully, he'll he can jump back on. There Oh, there he is. Um Yeah, it it does, you know, we talk about self-awareness. What what's another probably
067trait ubiquitous trait, I guess you could say that uh town managers and city managers have from your experience. I was just going to say before before maybe we exit the self-awareness thing because I think it flows in. Yeah. >> Self-awareness. I think we the issue is we start with self-awareness and we just think about strengths. Like, "What are my strengths? I need to know my I take the enneagram and I'm this [laughter] and this and I take this and this and this and this." And I take every test and I find out who I am. Again, we're looking for validation, right? The issue the thing that's level one self-awareness. There's nothing wrong with that. It's good. But have we taken level two, which is you take the strength and then you look at the shadow
068weakness. Every strength has a shadow, right? Oh, I'm great at this. Great. You will push into that and it will become your detriment. Mhm. I'm great like and so I think that again, are we taking self-awareness to the point where I know my strengths, but I also know their shadows? And now that I know my strengths, now that I'm practicing self-awareness, guess what I can do? Now, I become people aware, and I go, "Oh, those are your strengths. Those are your shadows. How can I be a help? How can we be a dream team where we know our strengths, but we're also holding each other accountable to where they become shadows?" And then as we become people aware, we become organizational aware, and so we build dream teams where we go, "I'm not Superman or
069Superwoman. I can't do everything. I need different strengths. I need different viewpoints." Then you build a city council dream team because it it it appreciates the different ways we think and the different way we see the world, so that we actually build something whole. And again, you know, the perspective of a community where made up of different people, different viewpoints, different values. How can we appreciate some of these things? And I think the only way we do that is with true self-awareness. True self-awareness creates humility. It does not create pride. And I think that's the issue why I see with a lot of self-awareness, we're doing it to puff ourselves up because again, we want worth and value. Instead of going, "Let me know myself so that I can also understand some of the things
070that lead to my detriment, burnout, etc., the things we've talked about." Yeah. >> Yep. Yeah, Seth, I you know, you're talking about um those shadow those edges, right? On some of your strengths. And we we think about a a um in more the modality kind of I'm familiar with, we think of them in terms of polarities, you know, you know, you know, you have the person who can who naturally can just go in and dominate a room, dominate a conversation. But can they actually go in there and listen and take the energy of the room and kind of get the sense of what all's happening. You know, can you develop both of those polarity ends of the polarity to where and have the range to choose which one you want to fall on. Um, that's
071been a critical like insight. Just uh the the concept of polarities at least for me and and and my >> the idea of choosing where you want to land on that because it is the the shadow side when you see it, you're like, okay, I I want to make sure I'm not veering into that, you know? Uh it's you talk about dominating a room. We do a ton of work with the Enneagram and so Enneagram eights are known for being direct, right? What their average level it describes them as dominate uh dominating and egocentric. And they're always like, I'm not dominating and egocentric. And everyone around them is like, really, bro? Like, yeah, you are. And all they're doing is presenting it very directly. They think they're being the best version of themselves. And they
072don't understand the best version of themselves looks wildly different than what they would just naturally do by instinct, right? And so it's it's modulating and choosing how do I would need to be in this room cuz there's times like, man, if you're in an emergency situation, I want an Enneagram eight in charge. I want them barking orders and taking command and here's what we're doing and there's clarity to how they communicate. If we're trying to solve a deep problem about maybe an internal challenge we're having and it's a relational thing, I don't need that dominant. I need that person who creates space for conversation and leads with vulnerability. And it is finding that that middle kind of ground of you are choosing the best version of you and it's not going to look like your
073default. And that is that's that level two, level three, level four self-awareness Seth is talking about. It's funny we always do these workshops and we give everybody their profiles and I'm like, guys, if you never look at your profile again, this was a waste of time. Like, I got paid, I'm happy, my kids are fed, nothing else happened here. You guys have got to start using this daily to understand how to lead yourself and lead your your teams. And I think that that I love that reference to the different levels of self-awareness cuz there's nothing wrong with level one, but there's also not a lot practical and effective about level one. That's where you have to dig in to get there. So I really like that. Yeah, you can you can also let it become
074the obsession itself. You know, like trying to get to those deeper levels of awareness and self-awareness and um that well that's another that's one of my shadow edges I guess you could say. You know, the intellectualization you know, that can lead to vision that can lead to um you know, futuristic type thinking. At the same time, it doesn't lead to getting a lot done. Um and but to all your points, I think that's when you know that about yourself and it goes back to self-awareness, you can build the team around you that helps support you. >> And um that is that's one of the I can say for myself that's one of the more fun jobs or parts of the job. Yeah, Jonathan, anything you I know you're you're back with us. I'm glad to
075see that. >> [laughter] >> Yeah, I didn't know if you were going to >> like uh I feel like I'm back from the the the the the shadows. Uh and that actually um comes ties perfectly with what I wanted to say. Uh Seth, you hit the nail on the head, man. Um and Michael, where your head went is exactly where my my head went. Uh polarity. Everything uh is just a a degree of the other end of the the spectrum. They're they're they're no different. So if you're like Lou Lou said, if you're confident and assertive, uh you can the the the the negative pole, the opposite pole can be uh combative. Uh and in in certain lights, you may come off as combative. And I think understanding where your your blind spots are uh
076is is so important as a leader. Um we all no matter what we're uh what we're what we're leading or what we're doing, we all have blind spots. And to to understand uh what the the the the other pole in the shadow can be uh and and know where how you can show up um is so important. I think especially as leaders when you're you're talking to staff, uh sometimes you can create, not due to any fault of yourself, you can create an echo chamber uh or you can create uh people that are are going along to get along uh and that dominating uh personality which uh is so important in in an emergency like it was said can sometimes create risk that you don't even know are happening because you're not understanding what the
077the shadow side or the other side of the the positive trait that you that you hold. So, uh Seth and um you you you've clearly done this work with other people, Chad, as as as as well, but I just wanted to double-click cuz it is so important um what is uh perfect and great in one scenario uh can be to your detriment as a leader in another scenario. Yeah, and it's it's a amazing the the range of different styles and different people that are in this profession. You know, and you talk about, you know, those those eights and um the town manager who hired me in Ashland, um he had no municipal experience, but he ran a military base. He was a general. He was uh in the Air Force, F-15 pilot, you know, shot
078MIGs down in Desert Shield or Desert Storm, I forgot which one. And I mean I I learned just as much from him um in terms of like leadership as I did from, you know, very experienced city managers that I worked for, just different things. Um so cool. Well, gentlemen, we are at the point where we can uh get to some lightning questions. These These should be a little bit more fun, although, you know, it's me, so they're a little bit heavy, too, as well. So, um Michael, you and I have the same personality type, by the way, just so we're clear. Like I We'll the heavy. Let's go. >> Yeah, you you know, we we we can we can go we can go deep there. So >> [laughter] >> Well, I'm going to Oh, let
079me see. I didn't put these in any order. But um we're going to start off with this one. So, what's the smallest thing that tells you a city is well-run? And Jonathan, we'll start with you. Wow, it's it's crazy being on the other side of this the last change. >> that's why I wanted you to go first, man. Wow, what's the the the the smallest thing? Um how every rung of the quote-unquote totem pole, cuz I don't want to talk about unnecessary hierarchy, um how they speak about leadership. So, if you go to the the newest person in the room that just, you know, just got their MPA, what do they say about the leader? If you go to the maybe 20 or 30, 40 year, maybe a little bit ornery, stuck in their ways,
080how do they talk about the leader? Uh so, anybody up and down the the the rung, how they speak about the leader, you'll see if it's positive, that's a well-run machine, cuz that is not easy to do. Yeah. Brilliant. Brilliant. Seth? I think when I have toured kind of, you know, when I go to a city hall, and then the city manager will come down and greet me usually in the lobby, and will walk me all the way to their office. Mhm. What we experience from that lobby to that office tells me everything I need to know. >> [laughter] >> It usually like it's the ones who they can't stop, but there's laughter, there's you know, there's little check-ins, and you just get the it's the it's that energy, it's that pulse versus the ones
081where it's like the walk of like, am I going to my death? >> [laughter] >> That might be the smallest, like when you said the smallest thing but it is always interesting the walk back to the office and it will tell you a lot about what's what's happening and just kind of what the vibe is in in in the That that is that's another brilliant one. Chad, how are you going to top this? So my smallest thing is actually it starts before Seth's smallest thing. My smallest thing is when I first walk in I'm very intentional about how I greet people and so I will walk in and say hey how are you today? Big smile on my face and what I get back tells me a lot because the person greeting me at the
082front window has a pretty like mundane job. >> [snorts] >> And they see a lot of citizens that come in unhappy they deal with a lot of things they probably shouldn't have to quite frankly and if I walk in and say hey how are you today? If I get back a big smile that's usually proof to me that there's something going well there because what that tells me is there's a leader above them that is coming in regularly and encouraging them that cheerleader role that's remind them hey I know we had those citizen complaints you handled that so well I'm so proud of you. So when I get a smile back as soon as I walk in the door I'm like okay there's good stuff happening here I think it really is that simple. Now
083could that person have just had a bad morning and their coffee was made wrong maybe but usually it is a sign of good things when there's a smile that's reflected back and so I think it's the the moment before Seth's moment is usually what I'm seeing and if that's going well and all that's stacking up Jonathan's moment's working as well cuz you're hearing good things about the leaders I think it all really does tie together. Yeah so so Jonathan could be talking to the workers as he's going into town hall and then you'll then you when you meet the city manager you'll get the full trifecta of these these ideas right here of uh of how you can sense something's going well. >> [snorts] >> Um what's something a guest taught you that had nothing
084to do with local government? Seth I'll I'll start with you. Oh man something that doesn't have anything to do with local government. Um, hmm. >> [clears throat] >> Oh, I was you know, the first thing that came to my mind is you, but it did teach me about local government and you're like this this style of what's happening in Ashland where everyone gets to come in and and have a say. That's that's Old town meeting. Yeah. >> it like so wild. Um, man, something that doesn't have to do though with local government. Man, that is a my brain is so geared on the local government. Um, I I think it's just the again, maybe it is local government. It's just the places. I love diving into the stories of these places like the history. I
085think my favorite episodes probably have been they're usually the smallest cities. They're the places Van Buren, Maine, the middle of nowhere and just how it kind of has changed, how it came to be, how, you know, mining or the mill or, you know, something, you know, the power plant, something it did. And then like Van Buren's a great story because that mill, you know, the kind of the typical thing shut down and then the thing that was keeping it alive is it's right across the border from Canada. So it has like a border crossing where when you cross you have to do whatever your paperwork or stuff there. The federal government moved that border crossing like a mile down the road and it killed it. It was like the death now because now no one
086had any reason to kind of walk into right into downtown and get lunch and now they they're already a mile out of town. So we'll just keep on going. To hear these fascinating stories and then to hear my favorite part is the turnaround. Like how do you turn a place around? How do you take the old dilapidated hockey rink and turn it into pickleball and people are now playing and coming and showing up and and loving things going on. >> Pickleball's always the answer, isn't it? >> It is. It really is right now. I mean, if you're not playing pickleball, I don't know what you're doing. Yeah, being young. >> [laughter] >> Fascinating stories always get me, but we're yeah, it's that's a great question. We're so I'm so focused on local government. but I
087was thinking Yeah. Yeah. Um Jonathan? Yeah. Uh I got one that on the surface was about government. Um but below the surface was uh so much more. Um uh a town manager came on my podcast and shared uh an incredible story of facing uh addiction and then showed how they had to utilize the services. So, they got to see the other side of how the government supported them. And then they went on to lead that same government. And when I heard that, I was like, "Wow. I truly wish there were more people leading that have actually had to lean on the government uh in in certain hard times." And then I looked at my myself uh when I'm when I'm leading or I'm running a company, um am I actually coming from a place of
088humility? Have I stopped and looked at it from the the customer or the client's standpoint? Have I actually needed to reach out? Would I actually need this? Uh and I wish more people uh were were like this town manager. Uh so, that that's something I learned. Mhm. Love that. Cool. Chad? [snorts] >> That's a good insight. That is a good Beautiful. You know, for us, this is an easy answer for me because it's funny having a show called Leading Thriving Cities. You would think public service is the core of it, but really it's a leadership podcast. And when you start talking about leadership, it's how do you lead yourself to lead every area of your life. And I'm amazed how often the conversation veers into parenting, at leading a family. And for me, that has
089been one of the most beneficial things is sitting with mothers and fathers and kind of wrestling with the the doubts that come with parenting and the the fears that come with parenting and it's fun when I sit with people that have older kids. My kids are all out of the house and married and so when I sit with people in the same season, we're like, "Man, we made it. Can you believe we made it?" And then when I sit with people that have young kids, I'm like, "God, please, please, please be present in every moment." Like, "Yes, they're frustrating as hell, but please be present because you're not going to remember it if you're not." And I was never present really in a in a important way for my kids when they were young. And
090you don't get that time back, you know? For me, it was burnout. Burnout stole that from me. And so I really love when it veers into parenting and we talk about what leadership looks like in that context. And it's always amazing for me how much of that transfers directly to the conference room. So you go from like trying to get your kids to take their baths and go to bed and do all that. Next day, you're in a meeting and you're trying to get a 65-year-old police chief to learn how to like take his bath and go to bed and do the things and it it really transfers perfectly. Yeah. And it's really fun to me when that happens. So I love I've learned a lot about parenting and I've been encouraged as a parent
091just by interviewing all the the fellow parents. It's always it's always fun when that happens. Parenting, that's a journey, too, right? Wow. It's like city management except, you know, a lot more crying. >> [laughter] >> Well, it depends on the kid. My my mom might might disagree. Um I started to say I started to say it's like parenting but with a lot more dirty diapers and I you know, I don't know if we want to throw that sentiment out there or not. That would be an interesting guest, for sure. >> [laughter] >> So last one, gentlemen. Um what's the moment in an interview when you know you're going to get something good? Now, I'll just let whoever wants to jump in first. I'll throw my answer out there and it's probably going to make me
092sound like a a but I'll throw it out there. like It's honestly just the second they walk in the room. I know it's going to be good. What what I have learned is I want I want us to have a great conversation, which means we're just going to sit and talk. And so it is not about I tell my friend like we're not editing this. We don't edit anything out unless you say something that'll get you fired, we'll take that out. Outside of that, we're just talking. So pause to think, say your ums and your ahs and your like I don't we're we're good with that. Pretend this is you and me just having coffee. There just happens to be a bunch of cameras and microphones and lights. Um and I think that's we've gotten
093so I think good at that not in an egotistical way, but in creating space for conversation. I'm just confident that we are going to have a great conversation. It doesn't matter who it is. Everybody that walks in the door is super nervous. And I'm like, guys, seriously, don't worry about this. You're going to be okay. And we have just a short little 10-minute pre-conversation just to kind of connect and we talk about our kids and what we had for dinner last night and what foods we love and just random things. And it's amazing how that just eases in and then we jump in to the same four questions every episode. And every one of them goes in a wildly different direction. But I honestly believe like if you look back at every episode we've done,
094there's great parts of every single one of them. And so I'm just confident we we create space for that conversation well and I think a lot of it is we care. Like I love these people and I love the work they do and I'm passionate about telling those stories. And so I know we're going to bring that passion and that love to the process and I think people feel it and I think that opens them up. And so for me it's the second they walk in, the first time we connect and I smile and shake their hand. Sometimes it's the first time I'm meeting them. In that that moment of connection, I'm like, okay, we got this. And so I that's that's a weird answer, but that's my answer. No, I totally get it. Totally
095totally resonates. Seth or Jonathan? I think it's Oh, think it's No, jump in, Seth. Oh, you go. It's yours. You're Seth on this one. >> [laughter] >> Okay. So, it's it's two-fold and I know that that's probably cheating and I'd probably call it out, but >> [laughter] >> Are you smuggling in an answer? >> me a little of grace when I when I was doing yours. So. The the first part is that I do like an hour and and change initial call before the the podcast gets going and I already I always lead with what my like looks like and I get pretty in-depth into some tragedies that I faced around like losing my father, things like that. So, I try to set the stage of Let's let's really do this. Like let's really get
096into it and I've seen once you lead with vulnerability, people return that. So, I usually after that, they go and and I tell them, "Take the long way. Take the scenic route when describing your your background." So, I really get to get like their why and why they're doing that. So, I really appreciate that. And then the second part is one of my favorite things to do is title the the podcast and there are there's been times when I'm like when we're literally doing the podcast live and and I'll say it. I'm like, "Yep, that's the line. That is the the title of the podcast." Cuz they'll just say something just so like pointed and just perfect and I'll I'll call it literally call it out the I think I know what the title of
097this podcast is going to be and that's when I know if if it made me elicit that that effect, I usually know my the viewers will will get that same sentiment cuz it's coming from a place of authenticity and truth. Mhm. Absolutely. Seth, what about you? I love that. >> [snorts] >> I think all all these things are so resonate with all of them that so true. It for me it's I don't do a pre I don't do anything except we we get on and we hit record. So I'm a little crazy. I'm a little Are we just inherently lazy Seth cuz >> No, you're you're inherently smart and I am I am just [laughter] I've always thought it's because I want to be super curious. I do not want to know because that keeps
098me engaged in the conversation, right? And so just for my kind of personality, but what I do is at the beginning every episode starts the same. Take me back to the beginning before we get into your professional accolades and let's talk about just you as a person. Take me back tell me where you were born and kind of the childhood that shaped you and I will know if it again most of our episodes are great Right. because like Chad says there's always something great, but I I I know how difficult. So it's not whether it's going to be great. I know how difficult my job's going to be based on how they tell that story. If they're very protective, if if if it's very like if we most of the best ones actually will even
099start with vulnerability and they'll share something in childhood. Like I remember yours Michael. Like I knew I was like in fact as we were telling your story I was like are we even going to get to town management? This is such an amazing story already. And so some of those I think of yours I think of Mike down in Sugarland Texas. Some of you guys just the what you've been through even what Jonathan mentioned that adversity beforehand just coming out of what shaped you is the power of people's story. I mean that's what we do I think what we do we do. I just love story. The human stories are amazing and the more we can be every one of us has challenge and that's the danger is when we try to compare or contrast
100or make you know our story d e I remember growing up in church and on Sunday nights it's like testimony night and we'd all I'll like and it was like we'd outdo each other on the testimony. >> Yeah. I was addicted to three drugs. I was addicted to seven drugs. >> And then I was addicted to Jackpot. And it was just like more and more crazy. And I think like your story you have come through it. We've all gone through it. It's just different different shades, different struggles, different types and yet you are here and you are persevering and you are making a difference. And so I just yeah, every story is amazing but you can kind of tell I think someone's ability to own their story and be vulnerable and to really shape or
101really tell what shaped them. The man this is powerful stories. Yeah. Yeah, Seth I think that's a a good way to to kind of start closing this out is just the the importance of story and the human story like you said and um I'm going [snorts] to give each of you an opportunity to just um say some final thoughts but uh that gives me a good segue to just say how much I appreciate you being willing um to spend so much time and of your own resources in sharing the stories of public servants um around around the country because it was a story that wasn't told um a lot um it's it's in some ways very obscure even though you know you see you see representatives of local government every day. I always tell our
102police officers if we're you know going to read a book uh to a classroom those kids are going to care a heck of a lot more who that police officer is than who I am and um I think the fact that you were telling these stories and getting it out to people and just number one um helping the people in the profession um be more open giving them a venue to talk about things that in in some ways helps connect them is incredibly important and I think helping to share our stories with other people hopefully in a way to get more people interested in local government. Um, because that is that is becoming a crisis. Uh, the the amount of people leaving public service, especially at the local level, is um, is is striking and
103uh, should be concerning to everybody. Yes. >> Um, so so thank you. I I will I will do a proper send-off afterwards, but I want to give you um, all an opportunity to to just give me some final thoughts. Chad, I'll start with you. The last guy gets to go first. Yeah. Um, so I You know what's funny? I was talking to somebody yesterday. Uh, I'm coming back to Massachusetts in a couple weeks and one of the parts we're going to do at the conference is kind of a live version of our podcast. We're going to interview a couple people. And I was on the call with them yesterday and they were both a little hesitant like, "Who am I to do this?" And the thing I told them, I think I would like to
104encourage everybody with is they one of them commented and said, "I'm looking out at the crowd and thinking like, what do I have to share that's better than what they have to share?" And I told him, I said, "It's not about being better or worse. It's about your story. Each one of us has a very unique story." Seth just talked about this. And it's in those unique stories, you know, it's in in Jonathan talking about losing his father and it's in in those those unique twists of the story that people can can identify themselves and go, "Oh man, I've been there." And in that moment, they feel like they're not alone. And when we started this company originally, it was understanding that leadership could solve so many problems. Uh, but part of being leaders, you
105know, we're taught that it's lonely. And I think that's a lie. I think we buy into it and we're like, "Well, I'm lonely, so I must be a great leader." Man, great leaders surround themselves with other people. And so I think it's just understanding that on your journey, all the twists and turns and the challenges and the hardships, those are meant to help other people. And so, it is about telling your story. Your story doesn't have to be better than anybody else's, not more insightful, none of that. It's just your story. And so, I think that's part of why we're so passionate about doing this and why I think we would all agree like this is it's it's to tell the stories of other people in order to help others. It it it I guess
106it kind of redeems the experiences we've had, you know? Uh I got to stand on stage yesterday and talked about some hard things that happened to me as a kid, the first time I ever felt shame. And what I know is as hard as that is to do in front of people, it it connected with people. And I guarantee you there's other people walked out feeling like, "Okay, I'm not the only one." And so, I would just encourage people that watch this and think, "Well, I could never do anything like that." Do it. Tell your story. Your story is uniquely you and it was very specifically the way it is so that you can serve other people with it. And I can tell you it brings redemption to those stories and to those experiences that
107we would look at as bad, suddenly there's life. And so, I would just encourage you do do not hesitate to share your story if you ever get the chance because it will absolutely help somebody and change their life. And maybe it's a small way, maybe it's a large way, but it does have an impact. So, tell your story. There's a reason you have it and it is not just a hold tightly and and protect. It's to share. Uh and so, that's that's why we're so excited about this and want to keep doing this for a really long time. Cool. Cool. Seth, how about you? Uh really the same thing. I think that Chad nailed it. You have a unique story, but your the power of it isn't in how unique and how dynamic. And I
108think we live in a Hollywood age where people go, "Well, my story's boring." Like it has no And like I'll find And not only will I find uh some excitement and some uniqueness in there, I I think that you it's not unique to you because you lived it. It's just the past. And and yet, not only is there uniqueness that can be inspiring, as Chad said, there is more You are not so unique that people will not connect with it. And I think that's what is inspiring, and that's why I share from birth to where you're at now, cuz I want someone young, I want someone mid-career, I want someone old to be able to hear parts of your story and go, "Oh, that was me. We we Oh, we share this. Oh, we both
109have this. Oh, we Oh, I'm It It It It helps people go, "Oh, maybe I want to aspire, or maybe Oh, they're like me. Maybe I can share. Maybe we have some commonality of struggle. Maybe There's just so much uh There's so much to glean from a story. Inspiration, identification, all the all kinds of things we could go into, and I just think, yeah, sharing your story, and it's powerful for you. I think that's for local government leaders. You have been so in the grind of climbing and of working and of doing, you forget the impact you have. Just like what we've mentioned this whole time, local government only basically is known when when something breaks, when something doesn't work. You do the work every day. A local government leader, whether you're elected, whether you're
110uh employed, whatever that looks like, you do work that you don't realize is amazing. And and I think you have to looking back and seeing what you've been through and what you've actually done is healthy. Uh we we don't really do that. We think that's what, you know, that's what famous people do. They write biographies. Uh your life is writing a story that's powerful and it's inspiring. And it doesn't need to be Hollywood to make a difference. Yes. Yeah. Good point. There's something you I want to point out real fast you said there, Seth. You said their work is amazing. And I think if you think back on a historical scale, the fact that we turn a knob and water comes out, and we flush a toilet, and it goes away, and we have paved
111roads everywhere. It's not amazing, it's miraculous. Like if you compare it to even 100 years ago, it's miraculous. That's crazy. I'm sorry, that just clicked in my head and I love that idea that it is miraculous work. I think they need to hear that more often. For sure. For sure. Jonathan, why don't you take us home? Yeah, no. Uh thank you Seth and Chad. You guys You guys hit the the nail on the head. Um when I I think of why I do what I do and I'm sure may resonate with with you people. Uh when I when I tell people it's amplification and demystification. Uh amplification because we've all said it and it's the sad truth, unfortunately. Um when things are going right, uh there's not a loud megaphone. Uh when things go wrong,
112it is everywhere. Uh and that is a a sad truth. Um so I I definitely want to tip my hat to to both of you and Michael as well for putting out the the stories of people doing it the right way and really amplifying those stories. Uh and the second is demystification. So uh some of the the audience base uh from my podcast, I I get on Tik Tok and it's not a lot of municipal leaders uh that are watching it. So I I ask a lot of questions like, "Hey, can you explain that? Or can you say that in in layman's terms?" And things like that. Uh so the demystification, but a part of that kind of demystification is exactly what you all have teased out. It's humanizing leaders. People can look up to
113to leaders or see government as just this big amorphous block entity, but when you talk about uh a leader's actual story uh and people can connect with that story, uh like Chad, the first time you you felt shame, like that is when you really start to bring uh the human element into public service. So again, I I want to take the time to to thank Michael. And then I said it off camera, but I want to say it on here. Like Seth and I was getting started, I was listening to to your podcast and just hearing how you're able to bring that human element and Chad, when I got started it wasn't a ton of people on YouTube putting it out and really bringing the the almost the the character element, the the charisma of
114that uh visual element of that. So I want to thank you both for for for showing me that cuz it helps me in everything that I do. So thank you. That's incredibly kind, man. Thank you for those kind words. Awesome. Well, speaking of story, gentlemen, one of the things I really really um really have enjoyed getting to know you uh because of your stories and the people that you are, the people that you're bringing you know, who you're bringing to the table when you're doing these interviews. Not just your guest stories. It's uh you you each have or you each are special people and I've really enjoyed getting to know you over the last year. And I so appreciate not only the work you do, but again the people you are. And I so appreciate
115you being willing to come on um Yeah. >> on this show and and share some of your experiences. I'm really excited about this. I hope we can do this again. You know. >> Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, this is uh this is I don't know, it's a little intimidating for me, but uh I can say that now here at the end. >> [laughter] >> But uh but you guys >> It is for all of us, trust me. Awesome. Awesome. Well, thank you and we will we will schedule you again for a later a later time and we'll continue this conversation cuz I feel like we were just getting warmed up. Yeah. Love it. Thank you, guys. Appreciate y'all. Thank you. Thanks so much. Everybody, this has been I'm I'm going to call this a special edition of
116Clock Town Chronicles. This is a little bit different. We've We've had Jonathan Mason, Seth Winterhalter, and Chad Wright who interview leaders amongst many other things that they do. They interview public sector leaders all across the country and share their stories on podcast and YouTube. Um so it was wonderful to have them here as guests today to share a little bit of their experiences. Um our next Clock Town Chronicles, I do expect to have a little bit more of a local flavor. I've got a couple of ideas um that really tie Ashland in with some other things that we enjoy. Things like music. So pay attention to the next episodes that come out. Um again, my name is Michael Herbert, uh town manager here in the town of Ashland. I'd like to thank all of all
117of my support, my staff, uh Paul and Barbara here at WACA TV. We couldn't do what we do without them. And uh thank you for listening. We'll see you on the next edition of Clock Town Chronicles. >> [music] >> All right.