001Hello Ashlanders, there's a new podcast in town, the Bad Girls Guide to Town Government. It's of the people, by the people, and for the people. An opportunity for citizens to express themselves on their own terms. And it happens right here in the information parlor at WASCATV in Ashland. Uh, before we get into today's absolutely riveting topics, uh, we are going to start where we usually start, um, with Upbeat Corner. Oh, thank you, Julia. I'd like to talk about, um, briefly the Ashland Historical Society programs. Now, I full disclosure, I was on the board and I am still a member. I'm obviously a proud member. Uh, there's free educational, um, topics October through April, 2:00 p.m. on Sundays. They're sometimes very local history, uh, by maybe a member of the society or someone in the community
002that speaks about. That will be next month about our cemetery. It might be someone who has a history of historical performances and bringing Last month, uh, the one this last week we had a full house. Um, but it's free and we love to have people come and enjoy that, learn about local history, learn about the house, um, and I think it's a you know, good way to bring together people that have share that commonality of enjoying history. Yeah, and if you're new in town, you should check out the Ashland House cuz it's got a lot of great, uh, examples of Ashland's history. I've seen That's where I first stumbled on History at Play, where she just does some of the pacing and I saw one's coming up on April 12th and it's a Wildwood what
003what the Wildwood say? Yeah, that's that'll be local historians giving us a talk about that. And while we're on local history, just want to make sure we mention that we we hope we think Jim Hannah is still here as a co-host in spirit honoring we that we're trying to honor his uh his caring about standing up for things you believe in and even if it isn't what maybe you're hearing from town hall kind of things. >> Yeah. Yeah. Thank you, Jim. Um okay, so I'm going to talk about >> [clears throat] >> the umbrella topic today will be democracies need checks and balances to sur to thrive and survive. And should I do the quote? Sure. >> Okay, so okay, do you want to read one or both of these quotes and then we'll talk
004about them. So we like to have references to some quotes and historical things and a couple that we found on checks and balances. The American system of checks and balances is only as strong as the leaders who have the character and courage to enforce them. From Neera Tanden. Next one's interesting is actually from our James Madison, fourth president of the United States. It may be a reflection on human nature that such devices, meaning checks and balances, should be necessary to control the abuses of government. But what is government itself but the greatest of all reflections of human nature? If men were angels, no government would be necessary. And I think those both reinforce that we should stand ask for and demand strong checks and balances. >> Yes. And I don't know uh I I kind
005of feel like we don't really have any checks and balances. um, but so you have the federal government with executive, judicial, and legislative, but on the um, local level, you have executive, which would be the select board and the town. I don't know. The the govern- the select board. And probably the staff, and then you have the legislative, which is the people who come to town meeting. And I found this uh, for the filming portion. I found this, um, organizational chart in the town of A, and they say, well, it says citizens of Medway, but we might call it residents. Residents of Ashland, I would love to see this. I've been trying to get an updated organizational chart for a couple of months now. Um, but when I saw this, it just really reinforced to
006me that in that town anyways, the people are really seen at the top of the org chart. Um, you would you might not think of that when you observe how some of our meetings are run. Kate, do you want to Well, I do think this is a great because if you have that role as a legislature and part of the government and you know, we're at the top of that. We do have responsibilities to speak up, to show up, to question, to understand. So, we have to fulfill our part of that as residents as well. I think it's it's we can say that and that's a great starting point, but if we never act on it, that could be a problem. And I think some of your other topics show how we might have a
007might make it difficult for us to act on that, though. Okay, that sounds great. All right, so I just, uh just cuz we're all things cultural and historically uh I watched Well, I've seen it before and it just happened to be on uh TCM and I watched uh Mr. Smith Goes to Washington. And it's a Frank Capra movie and it stars Jean Arthur, who's fabulous, and James Stewart and and um Claude Rains, if you're into some of the horror movies, he was in horror movies. Um So, it's it it's just this really awesome film about uh one of the senators dies, so then the governor of that state gets to send somebody in. So, there was some corruption going on, so they're trying to find someone who wouldn't cause any problems. So, the kids actually
008in the town said, "You should pick Jefferson Smith cuz he was head of the Boy Rangers." And he would take They were all talking about nature and everything. Um so, uh he appointed him and then he got there and he was walking around looking at uh you know, Abraham Lincoln and all the statues and everything. And then when he got into the Senate, he found out almost by accident cuz they were trying to hide it from him, that there was actually land corruption going on and they wanted to take some land that his state, and they never say which state it is, um wanted to turn it into like a national boys camp, so that every This is This was filmed in 1939, by the way. Um and so, he ends up doing the filibuster
009for 23 hours and I've actually Googled it and you really you're not supposed to even leave to go to the bathroom. I mean, you're not supposed to You're supposed to dehydrate yourself. Um so, you don't leave and this was a talking filibuster. He just talked and talked and talked and talked and talked. And then um finally, one of the people um one of the other senators who had always looked up to, you know, just said, you know, I'm terrible. I I'm corrupt and then he ended up uh they ended up not doing not He was just trying to keep them from uh taking a vote. So. So and I think I think one point of that is how really one person can stand up, but it also got me thinking what what do we have
010as residents in local government? We don't have the equivalent of the filibuster. So so I think we're That's a That's an extreme case. You don't use it until extreme case, but I don't think we have anything like that. Oh my god. And so on the checks and balances side, we we're at a little deficit there. Yeah, I'm really glad you brought that up because it plays right into these other topics under the umbrella. Documents required by law, letting the people speak and I've got some examples of what happened to me. The strong town manager form of government, spending without town meeting or select board approval. And uh anyways, all right. So, documents required by law. So, I enjoy talking to people and if I see someone in another town doing citizen engagement stuff or I
011see they've written a letter to the editor, whatever, I will contact them and so I'm so glad I did because I learned from someone I met in another town that by state law, it's chapter 40, section 49, we are supposed to have an annual an annual town report before I believe the annual Yeah, and that that law that state law it's interesting. I don't think it said like it didn't come with a table of contents you shall include this. But what we found was the examples we looked at towns were very comprehensive. You could understand exactly the financial state the hiring of those towns and as someone who studies history I also think it's an amazing document for that historical. It's all in one place and these to me those reports don't seem like extra
012work. They seem like it's just putting together a nice little thing that work that everyone already does. >> Yeah. What I found so fascinating looked at a whole bunch of them and it was hard to find a town that didn't have one. Mhm. Except for us. Um that they had uh births and deaths and the what they talked about the town meeting but the most important thing that most all of them had was the salaries. They list all the salaries. And we we have no idea what our salaries are. >> Well, be clear I think what you're talking about is the salaries by employee name and not a bucket and not like this is how much we spend on salaries in this department. It was per person which you know people can get upset about
013but that is that is typical in public employment that your your salary is exposed and I think that's okay cuz that gives people an idea. Um so I do want to correct one point because we don't know. I also looked on the town website. So we know for sure it's not in the town website. The annual report. We haven't been sent one to our house so we don't have that. Could it exist and just not be publicized and given to the public? We don't know. Correct. I mean, I was maybe I don't know. Five, six, seven years ago, I was in the library at the front room where the chairs are, and I noticed this little box. And I walked towards it, and it was filled with town annual reports from like the '80s and
014the '70s and maybe maybe up to '99, but So, then, our previous town manager in 2014 mentioned that he was going to bring back the annual report. >> by state law. >> the bring back the required report. And we had it for 1 year, but it did not have the salaries in it because I don't know what is up with this town, but trying to get the salaries is it's it can be very difficult, and I know in other towns, if they're not in the annual report, they're in a warrant, they're somewhere. They make it easy for you. So, I if we had one, I think it would be strange that two people who are actually alert couldn't find it. So, anyways, I I for anyone that watches this, and I hopefully some of our
015leaders watch this or listen to this podcast, uh they can maybe look into it. Um it had like even down to what they spent on a project. And I mean, >> Oh, I love the part about this would be super helpful about the bonds. It's every bond, when it was started, when it's finishing, and how much is currently owed, and the interest rate. It was really, really simple, easy to understand. Yes. Medway had the bonds, the long-term debt. All the projects and what it was and the interest cost and it just reminds me just how much we're actually in the dark here. I mean, we have these aggregate totals at town meeting and no one knows what what what even makes it up. There's a few random categories and I don't know. I really think
016we need to Well, there is that saying, right? Information is power. Oh my god, I'm going to I I I can't So, we do need the information. We want it. People want it. They're capable of making decisions looking at it and asking better questions when you have better data. Yeah. I mean, my my philosophy is and I think it would make the clerk's office uh run far less uh what do you call it? Uh staffed eyes. It would be easier for them if all this information that people keep asking for, that every other town has in their public reports, if it could be online, I think it would drastically reduce the time that people spend >> that's a that's a good point. They recently talked about charging, but maybe you have like what's in the
017reports, you guide people there and if they keep asking for something in the report, then maybe you charge them. You said, "You didn't look at the report, right?" So, you could actually save money and time, I think. And and have people really be able to have a way to be more invested in understanding what's going on. Yeah, and if if you want an engaged uh citizenry then they need information because how can we interact with nothing? You know, just like the absence of anything. I don't even know a vacuum. We're supposed to let we're supposed to We've been given the power to legislate, but we don't have the We don't have basic information to even know what we're legislating. Um All right, so uh All right, we are we we have these action items, too.
018I think that that should be looked into about the annual report. >> so. That's a simple a simple thing. >> fine. List them on the website. >> in the library. >> Yeah. If they're not, where are they? Mhm. Um And the economic development revenue fund is also supposed to have a a required report. Um and I've tried for a long time to get it, and it's required, and again, you know, it's it's crazy. Um did There's another another requirement. The uh the the capital improvement Oh, so I mean, on the checks and balances, so I look at I really did take to heart when we had this, you know, nice chart from Medway. Residents are are at the top. I always have taken to heart about the legislative through town meeting. But the other checks
019and balances that the public should have is expectation of following the rules of the town. So, it tags along with Wait, we are supposed to be getting these things. We don't. Who is Who is asking for them and holding accountable? Shame on us as the public we don't ask. So, that's one of the reasons we're here asking. >> Yeah. Um but we're supposed to have a capital improvement committee. That is citizen-serving government. And that has not been reconstituted for quite some time. So, I think that's sort of a problem. And I think when those rules are ignored, just like we're now out of sequence of reviewing the charter. Now, maybe there'll be no changes out of the charter. Maybe there will. But again, why are the public processes of checks and balances completely ignored in
020our town? Yeah, I don't know. We're going to be talking about type of government we have in a in a little bit. Um So, oh did you want to talk about Munson? Well, I I when we were talking about checks and balances, the the moderator there I I was actually surprised cuz he wrote you know, a short short essay on social media, which meant he was seriously wanted people to try to look. And it was um I don't know if I should read some, but he wanted people to be aware of how town meeting worked and how the finance committee worked. Um I >> Okay, as as of now, you're 2 months out from annual town meeting. I thought it'd be a good time to go over some of my duties and responsibilities as moderator
021and those of the finance committee and put them in the form of a public service post on Facebook. Just as our federal government has separation of powers, the same is true of our state and local governments. For local governments, there's an executive branch and a legislative body. In Munson, that would be the same in Ashuelot. The executive branch are vested in select board and the legislative powers are vested in town meeting. So, he goes on to explain how the finance committee is under the legislative and that should also be independent. He believes that's why it's appointed by the moderator in that town, also in our town. And so, I think that just reiterates making sure that the finance committee is independent working as the legislative um and and not maybe just simply getting information from
022one source. Yeah, um I I that line just jumped out at me. Serve the interests of voters rather than the executive administration, the select board. I really think it's time for the moderator. Um, like all the other groups in town come before the select board and talk about the process, how people are picked. I think that would be really educational. And speaking of educational, I would love to see a citizens academy run by the citizens uh or at least have a part in the citizens academy because it's just again, we're we've got the citizens sitting there, you know, but when do they get to stand up front? And I mean just regular people. Um, so that's something to think about. Yeah, I hope the select board next time there's a citizen academy will will at
023least consider having the a citizen component of that. Citizen groups, think different ways to be involved, how it all works. Yeah. Um, and I think once people understand how things work and the power they actually have, that they're going to be more likely to participate because if people think, "Oh, nothing I do matters." What would be their motivation to participate? But if they're like, "Wow, I do have power to to help figure out how the town's going to look or the zoning or whatever." And not just when you're sitting in a town meeting when it's too late to do anything. Uh I think that would be great. All right, so our next topic under the umbrella topic is letting the people speak. And I had some I want to call them unfortunate experiences since we
024did this podcast where I was like invited to speak and then I was cut off. Uh I was interrupted, then cut off, and then uh I was I just I couldn't believe it because we actually talked before last time about Baron versus Collina. And I know that they at their open meeting last training that they had and think it was in February. Like mid February, they talked about um that when there's a public comment and we can talk about that process too. Katie, you can talk about that. When there is a public comment the I the idea is to let the people speak instead of, you know, trying to shut them down. Do you want to talk about the process of public comment? Well, I think that we should do a better job of allowing
025it, saying when it's allowed, when it's not allowed and why. And I I think that they do need to take heart that Mass Supreme Court ruling that people do get to say. Now, I mean, I I think there has to be some measure of them. Like when I was on the planning board and there was basically zoom bombing that was just Yeah. terrible. Like do you do you allow racist and other things to occur? Generally, probably not, right? But what And so I think we can do a better job if there was a well-defined process, people would understand if there's limits where they're coming from, right? That we try not to have people saying, for instance, racist things. We would um This could be very simple if we wrote and discussed as a town a
026policy that we agreed to, right? And I think the public does understand every meeting can't have public comment, right? That that isn't what we're asking. We're asking that it's defined and a process and the and the process is followed. And quite honestly, I think everyone knows the error should always be on let's hear from the public. Oh, absolutely. That's such a great statement. And I remember talking to a previous moderator who always said to me uh that I wanted to err on the side of democracy. and I think we have a tendency in this town to air on the side of not democracy, efficiency, shut up. >> Um yeah, and people the excuse would be efficiency and I will not buy that. I'm sorry. That is >> efficiency, that is just you know, you can
027be somewhat efficient so it doesn't take two weeks, but um people people being told the comment is ending a town meeting when they're still sitting in their chairs. I mean, wouldn't wouldn't the um Well, in the legislature should get where the legislative body, we should get to get up and speak again. If you made a point that I agree or don't, it's okay. I do think some of those um I I feel like the time limit has helped some people feel like it goes better whether it does or not and I I applaud again you up the time limit. That seemed something people can live with, right? >> a citizen's petition. >> Yes. So I I'm I read some other towns are looking in and doing those things. So that as a limit that we
028agree on seems to be okay, but but to say you can only speak once who who said who said that? >> That that was not the citizen's petition at all. Um and my my other comment too and I know it happened before. You had some maybe senior citizens who have a little trouble moving. If you're going to end the comments, it shouldn't be who's standing in line. It should be is there if there's anyone who wants to come up. Again, let's make this welcoming. Let's make this people feel like it really is the people's night. Hey, you want to come and talk about this? Can everyone get in line now? I'll give a couple of minutes for people to get in line. Um I just think we we I hate to I I know I
029keep saying this, but I think we need to do better. We we need to just really want to hear from the people that live and since I've lived here, I don't think I've It's very rare, like totally rare, if someone says something that maybe they probably shouldn't say or need to say. In general, people get up, they're very organized in their thoughts. Uh I was organized, I'd written everything down, and I don't know. I I I just don't think there's a a place for it. Oh, and of course, I just reminded myself. Um listening. So, maybe the beginning of the '90s or so, I saw a course at Birmingham State, and it was called listening, and I the forgotten skill. So, I went to it, cuz I said, "Well, you know, I don't know I
030I know about hearing, but not necessarily listening." And it was probably one of the best class [clears throat] I've ever taken, and uh this is an awesome book uh by Madeline Burley-Allen, and we it was like a bunch of arborists, me, and a couple of other people, and we She did all these activities. She was absolutely fabulous. And it was clear that we weren't listening, even in the listening class. Uh but I really learned, you know, that there's a diff- listening is actually an acquired skill. And I think it's one that's definitely in short supply in the town, because when we go to say something and we're shut down, I was told at one point, as I recall, that there I they were disagreeing with what I'm saying, but I I get my couple of
031minutes, and then there's a disagreement with me, instead of just listening to me. So, did Have you seen You've seen some of the Hopkinton town meetings and I noticed on their citizens comment their policy again process and policy is they don't comment live. They come back the next meeting and give response. Now I'm not quite sure how that all works with like open meeting law. Did they agree on an answer? Did they say one person answers? But it felt like yes, they could actually listen cuz they weren't trying to respond on the spot. >> Yeah, I think that's great. I think that encourages listening. I have listened to some I'd like to listen to the local other towns to see how they're organized and I think they're actually organized pretty well. I noticed the people
032in Hopkinton they're invited to come and sit at this table and they are allowed to speak. They can speak. I've seen people speak for 5 minutes even longer. >> The one I saw did have a time limit. In fact, they brought two people they said if I hit my limit, I will go. Oh my god, that is so ingenious. Maybe that's why I thought it I thought it was longer because it was It was a similar time, right? Yeah, so anyways, it's just it's just really refreshing and I think, you know, maybe we should take a look at ways to improve >> the process. >> Yeah, improve the process instead of just yelling at us whatever. Um all right, so the next one that it is related is it's our the our form of local
033government. So in 2007 and I was not at this town meeting. I was not able to be there. I don't know, maybe you were there. They changed the town meeting government from a regular town manager. You can towns can have a town administrator, a town manager and then the Stratton town manager form government. And it took power away from the select board and ultimately the people and just gave it to the strong town manager. And you know, you you can see what they do. They they can do a lot. They sign all the warrants. They can decide money will be spent. Hiring, everything. And when I watch other select board meetings, it's apparent to me that they still maintain power. They're not in a position of just, you know, asking. They're doing. So, I don't
034know if you were at that meeting. Probably I miss very few, but I don't specifically uh remember that. But here's another thing. We we can say the I assume the advantages that when someone sold strong town managers that the the select board are volunteer. They have full lives already. So, it gives some relief to them of having more decisions. I I can see that, but then when you do that, maybe there needs to be more oversight of like some citizens oversight. Like an example, a lot a lot of police departments, right? If they're having issues with the public, they create a public oversight so people can feel heard about these things, right? So, I think there's ways to I I don't know that getting rid of strong town manager is entirely the answer based on
035how our select board structured, right? It's it's not even There are communities that pay, so then maybe someone could do it as a part-time job. But it's a big ask, right? So, I think we have to start there with the select board. What do they see pluses and minuses of that? But again, this goes back to we talked about if our government was following what we believe they're supposed to, we should have a charter review. It's written in the charter how often you have it. And I did not look up what I just know it's overdue to start the process. And I apologize I did not look up but so though we would be having those discussions as a community. And we should have those discussions. Like maybe when we had it everyone thought it
036was the greatest thing since sliced bread. We've had it for a while. We don't think it's the greatest thing since sliced bread anymore. What can be done? Yeah, I it just we we need more opportunities to really listen you know, to what the people are saying and And can I interrupt you while I while I'm not listening? Um so I as a as a resident of town did not sub my civic duties to the select board. Yeah. And that is just the truth. We we need to be involved and to be good good members of the community and the legislature you need to be involved. And so these things that continuously aren't done make it just much more difficult. Yeah, I mean we're almost done with our time here uh cuz it's so much fun
037and so enjoyable speaking into these historic microphones that were from the original WACA TV uh studio on Elliot Street. Uh Paul Bodwin who is our fabulous tech director. Um he was telling us about the history of these very fine microphones. Um yeah, I think the whole town would just run more smoothly if we actually had processes that we follow. Mhm. Um so we will be back uh uh I I don't think we even mentioned um your two co-hosts were Julianne Ardown and Kate Judson and we um and I graciously accept the opportunity to be a co-host and I would encourage other people interested to email questions, topics, and co-host opportunities. And it is [email protected] or if you see me around town just say hey. Uh I want to talk to you about that. So anyways,
038um we will see you in another month I believe. And thank you for watching. We're now on Spotify and what was the other one? And >> Apple podcast. So we've made it to the big big leagues. Uh thank you very much.