001There's a new podcast in town, The Bad Girls Guide to Town Government. It's of the people, by the people, and for the people. An opportunity for citizens to express themselves on their own terms. and it takes place right here at WACA TV and Ashlin Mass at the information parlor. Today's two co-hosts are Julie Nardone and Kate Jerzik and today's conversation will start with Kate. Do you want to tell us about Upbeat Corner? Yeah, I would love to talk about one thing I think gives a lot of pride to the area, probably Massachusetts, certainly Boston and Ashland, is the Boston Marathon. It's coming up this month. It started in 1897. It's the world's oldest annual marathon. We had the starting line in Ashlin, so I hope Ashlanders know that and make sure that remains a point
002of pride. In 1924, it moved the starting line to Hopington. We also have the honor of having um a statue of Spencer who was an official dog of the Boston Marathon in 2022. I people may remember Spencer was a dog that would uh a therapy dog with his owner would stand out through much of the marathon just greeting runners and people really appreciate that and they actually still really appreciate the statue that is um there was an ask to put it on public property but that did not work out um by a vote of the select board so a private person has it and so that's also a beloved um upbeat thing about Ashlin and the marathon on. I also there's a couple more things. The fundraising is amazing. The BAA grants um that the
003select board gives through the BAA giving charity runners. I think the BAA also makes sure that we're reimbursed for the public safety costs and that is a massive logistics for our police, fire, DPW. So, we've spoke how highly our town regards them before and this is puts them on showcase. Obviously, if things aren't perfect, everyone around the world is going to notice, and I think they live up to that standard. So, I think it's something everyone hopefully is super proud of. >> I I like the statue of the dog. It's very nice. It's a private property. Um, so I am going to take you behind the scenes of podcast. I need to fix my timer because I [clears throat] erased the time by mistake. So, I'm quickly going to do that. Um, timer. Okay. All
004right. And then, oops. Okay. All right. Well, we're raw, real, and rap. >> Well, and that actually fits right in with today's about communication. We are making sure you communicate. So, good job. >> Great. Yes. So, we don't need to hide anything here. We're transparent. Good. All right. So, um our umbrella topic today is communication and we have a lot of a lot of juicy material and it's probably going to be a couple of uh conversations. Maybe not next time, but maybe the time after that. Um, Kate, would you do do you have any would you like to read one of these inspirational quotes about communication? >> Well, I actually do like that first one. The single biggest problem in communication is the illusion that has taken place. George Bernard Shaw. And I the reason
005I like that is that we it it puts responsibility on all the parties involved. Right? if you step back to think about did I communicate just because I said it did I did did my ideas and thoughts get through. So I really like that one. >> Yeah, I think it's funny too because people think they're actually communicating but they sort of aren't. Okay, so the umbrella topic communication, why it is hard to understand each other and how maybe we can make that better in local government. And then uh before I get to the um ones under that, I wanted to talk about uh the movie Cool Hand Luke, which is one of my favorite films is I'm a huge Paul Newman fan. And it has a very famous movie line called what we have here
006is a failure to communicate. And Paul Newman plays Luke Jackson. And he was vandalizing some eaters. He didn't even steal the money. And he ends up being sent to this uh prison for two years. It's set in Florida. And when he gets there, of course, there's your typical sadistic uh warden and he just rebelss against the system and he becomes like an inspiration to the other uh prisoners and he escapes and every time he escapes it just gets a lot worse when he comes back. And uh so anyways um there's also I found it's in Burn Switzerland and it is the uh Museum of Communication and it really looks fabulous. It's interactive. They've got some post office stuff. Then they've got email and more modern stuff. And I only went to Switzerland once. I went
007in high school. We had a skiing trip to Davos and it was really funny. The whole thing was funny. There wasn't much snow, but um anyways, I I need to get back to Switzerland so I can see this museum. All right. So to Oh, did you want to talk about the bad girl rules? >> Oh, I think >> Okay, we're going to slightly go off. Uh >> well it's we want to remind oursel I'll I'll call it under the communication umbrella as well. We started I I do remember our very first um podcast that I was able to be a co-host and again thank you for the opportunity to co-host bad girls are persistent. I think we've we've learned that >> bad girls have their own community meetings and I think that's something um that
008does come up under communication but how would you do that right that getting a meeting space up it would go with that communication who do we communicate with to get to have public meeting space in town [snorts] bad girls get things done bad girls embrace controversy and I I think that comes we refer back to Jim Hannah Right. We wouldn't make controversy, but sometimes speaking up is perceived >> as controversy, and we don't want to be afraid of that. >> That is bad. >> Yes. Um, bad girls push for their voices to be heard. Thank you again, Jim Hannah. Uh, bad girls do their own research. I think you you might hear something and then you have to say, is that true? Do you want to look into it? Do you have a different side
009of that story? Bad girls get documentation to confirm what they say that goes along with research and making sure you understand it. And again, I think you're great, Juliet, saying there's all sides to an issue, right? We you can have multiple viewpoints and really all be correct about the issue. And that's where community comes in to bring bring those things together. And um bad girls do not accept wimpy answers from their government. And I think that's again questioning. And I I really like this bad girls asked to prove it. So prove it to ourselves that we like the information and if you're receiving information from town government, prove it. Ask for the backup. And I think some of the groups um the tri board was I heard them saying make sure there's backup. People do
010want to understand. So I think there's been some improvement. >> Yeah. >> In that. >> I think so too. And I'm just going to the one um bad girls um have their own community meeting. I was on Facebook and I noticed that there are um some residents in Marboro who are concerned about all the developments. So they are holding their own meeting. Um I don't know where they're having it but they had the agenda. It was already totally organized and we had talked about that maybe at the first or second conversation that we had and I I really think we need to have one too. It doesn't have to be, you know, not government sponsored, people sponsored. >> Um, so, you know, people can hear other other sides of the same issue. And I just
011I I meant to mention that Paul Newman is a bad girl in a cool folk. Um, all right. So the topics under the umbrella topic are why transparency, obtaining public records, uh town manager, select board goals and objectives and subject suggested improvements in how our government and the residents communicate with each other. Okay. So, and that I wanted to talk about, it was just posted yesterday, sent to me by someone that uh the Society of Professional Journalists uh gave Massachusetts the 2026 Black Hole Award for a troubling lack of transparency for the public right to know. and um you know anyone who's following the audit and things like that uh knows there's a problem and it's also local government. We'll be weaving weaving that in. So uh [clears throat] one when I think of communications
012in our in this town the word contradiction comes to mind to me. I don't know what comes to mind to you. Um because I feel like we're often told something and then it gets reversed somehow and then we're like told like the opposite. And I always raise my hand or say, "But that's not what you said three years ago, 5 years ago, one year ago, one month ago." Kate, what do you think? Well, I think that can be true and it could be true because information is evolving. But again to go back to the theme of communication that could be stated in such and such a year we said this now things have changed and this and you can explain that and if you have data and information and it's a logical argument. So it
013it may not be changing changing there may be changing data to have that but if we're never given the backup it it is confusing right but one thing I think um and maybe maybe this isn't the worst place to talk about it that is I I think we shouldn't forget the power imbalance of town government with communication and residents and yes there there in just inherently is right we our community members tax dollars pay for let's say a communications person at town hall but I don't believe the public's ever been asked about use of that role I don't think the public has ever been specifically said how would how would we work like if we wanted a community forum public could we work with that person right maybe we can maybe we can't but those
014are sort of that that power imbalance I think we should not forget when we're talking about communication >> I really like um power imbalance balance cuz I do feel like it it's a problem. Like just take legal counsel for example. Uh it seems like the staff and maybe the select board can use legal for anything they want, but the people who actually pay for it, we actually have to go get another lawyer and pay for it to face ourselves. Like we're paying for both sides. So that that's always been a concern of mine. But um I'm going to look into uh how we have this community meeting because I think we've had them in the past. Just have to find a a place to >> Well, I I just I don't want to make too
015much of it, but I I can say I was on the comprehensive plan committee and that was something like how would you schedule >> Yeah. >> um use of a public place, right? We don't want to have to pay as a citizen the fee to rent the community center hopefully, right? But they there is a cost to that. The schools have a cost. >> Um so that is that is again that that also speaks to that power imbalance. If if town government has access to resources but the people don't, >> how do we fix that? >> Yeah. Um, yeah, just finding out more about the communications person because when I looked at the job requirements, it sounded like they were reporting to like five different people and and none of them were the people. It
016was like everyone but us. It's weird. It's like we we pay for all of this, but we don't actually have a seat at the table. I mean, we sit in the audience. Um, that's about as close as we get to the table. Um, so I I wanted to talk about a couple of things that are are contradictory. Um, and one is related because it's related to this override and it's just something I have been following for a while. We've been told over and over until very recently um that we and it's in all these documents that I printed out obviously that we needed new growth to add to the budget and that that we were often given these um graphs showing it's going down or it's going up and down and the the idea was
017that that kept coming across to me was that we needed to constantly have it fairly high to [clears throat] add to the budget, which if you think about that logistically, it doesn't make sense because like every year you'd have to be putting in 500 apartments. I mean, where would you even do that? >> Like the Ponzi growth scheme that people talk about. Yeah, >> Ponzi that I I would love to have a whole show just talking about Ponzi schemes. Okay, so it even says here >> uh new growth is an important component town's own taxation picture as it adds to the overall amount of taxes received by the community without burdening the existing property taxpayers. Okay. Okay. Well, what we've been told for the past since I started going to these uh uh trib meetings
018was that no, actually that's not true and that the new developments require new services and the tax they [clears throat] pay does not cover. >> But citizens have been saying that for a long time. >> Yes. Yeah. citizens have been saying it and now they're kind of saying it, but it's like, well, then why aren't we pushing it? Why are we pushing something? And that brings me to if everything we build is a burden in services, where are we going with this? I mean, what can they tell us what we could build that would actually um be neutral at a minimum? Well, so that is I remember it was maybe five years ago or so at meeting the community center that people did want more commercial because commercial uses less resources, right? it they they
019aren't bringing kids to the school that they do get public services like police and fire but they're not 20 living there 24 hours a day if they do use them right so they're just common sense and data shows that commercial uses less we we are at a deficit of commercial compared to other towns and I think that's um maybe the lack of planning that got us into that maybe we'll do another podcast on planning but but to overcome the residential imbalance would be difficult, but it doesn't mean we should give up on that, >> right? >> No. And we took the restaurant tax money. This is a little bit of a pee buying uh because it used it originally went to the library, the senior center um and open space fields and economic development, but
020that [clears throat] was for them on April 126. And then it got changed to all economic development. and we're supposed to have a communication. >> Uh we're supposed to have a yearly report that says where this money basically went and even the previous version, it's a house bill. It's actually a law although >> the home rule petition. So we needition we need flashlights. The sunshine rule. This is where where it comes in. Yeah. >> And sunshine week was uh when we did the last podcast uh I didn't even think >> that's okay. We are not we will be persistent. >> Yeah, because it was a different topic. But um you know I've written numerous times to all kinds of people uh trying even state reps trying to get this report um with the money because
021if it's now economic development well like where is it? Like what what have we what are we getting for this money? So I don't know. Um, all right. So, uh, it we we've already talked about it very briefly, but it can be difficult to get record public records. I did ask for the calendar here, 25 salaries, and I I think I waited most of the 15 days. Um, some people get it right away, I didn't. and what I got I just honestly I I couldn't understand what it was. Um so I wrote I don't know maybe last week at the end of the week uh or maybe it was Sunday I don't know but I said you know I I really don't understand what this is can I just have the line of what the
022salary was you know the last day of December 31st 2025. So, you know, we're we're supposed to be informed because if we're not, they tell us we're misinforming. But then when you try to get the information, it becomes almost like a a herculean challenge. >> Well, and I would argue those are things like we talked about in the last conversation should be in that annual report and and readily available. >> Yes, >> you shouldn't have to do a public request for those things. And I understand that possibly a public servant wouldn't want their salary published, but that is a fact of how the system works. >> Yeah. Yeah. People have been shocked. What you're asking for salaries and it's like it's all public. It's all supposed to be like trying to get this public stuff
023is a whole other challenge, but it is supposed to be public. All right. So, and there's other stuff that we'll probably end up talking about the next time because they there's a I think he's a rep for um I think he's a rep for New Bedford and he wrote this whole thing more sunshine eat it from mass state and local government and Massachusetts should lead government transparency because right now they're at the very end. So to lead they would have to really ramp it up. um starting with an overhaul of public records procedure and better access to public meetings because what happens is if you do a public records request and they don't give it to you or you don't like the way they give it to you or whatever you can then appeal it
024to the state but the state has no mechanism of enforcement which reminds me like even about our upcoming town meeting. I got up at a town meeting, I don't know, maybe seven years ago, and I said, "Well, who's going to enforce this? And why are we even here if there's no enforcement mechanism? Is it just like a social event?" So, I mean, I think actually we are the enforcement mechanism sort of kind of. I don't know. But that's a whole other issue. Who's enforcing this stuff? I mean, we just drive around and randomly see stuff that go. Um, okay. So, we talked about that. Uh, there's more examples, but there's something else I want to talk about. All right. And it's related to what I just did. Uh, town manager select board goals and objectives.
025So, with uh I noticed an evaluation was coming up for the town management and I thought to myself, well, I've never seen >> any goals or objectives for anybody. Okay. So, I did a public record. No, I wrote the select board and I asked for it. Well, I was they said and I said, "Please don't turn this into a public records request because I don't feel like like every time you try to get anything, you got to go stand in the queue and it can be up to 15 days." Um, so I got an I got a a email back saying that they were going to turn it into a public records request even though I specifically said, "Please don't do that." And then I didn't [clears throat] get it. So, uh, I did a
026search. Did you do a search too on, uh, goals? >> I, um, no, I was looking for the communications plan and I didn't find it. It doesn't mean it doesn't exist again, but if I search on the website, I do have one thing to say, Julie, about the public records. And I feel like it's not a bad thing that they did turn it in because now that's public and someone else could see that request. It's >> so there there should be a policy, I think, but like and be consistent. We don't know. But I feel like that that might not be the worst thing. I mean, not getting the information and it should be something readily available, I agree with you. That's a separate issue. >> But that it was actually turned into public records
027request, I don't think is >> actually it wasn't because I said, >> you know, if I'm going to do a public records request, I'm going to do my own public records request. Um, so I decided to go take a look at what other towns might have out there. And I found a really great one in the town of Winon. And I only know that because someone I went to college with >> was from that town. So I I know where it is. Um, but it's really cool. They've got I got the one from fiscal year 24. They've got uh all these objectives and then there's actually actions. I'm gonna show this to people who might be watching. Uh and it's like it's really impressive. It's they got all of them. Oh, this one's funny. Protect
028and enhance communication. I just happened to look at that one. um maintain an open and transparent atmosphere with all elected and appointed boards and assure the board of selections are formed of blah blah blah blah. Um and then there's another one about improving the flow to residents and then they have an action item. Um so anyways I again you apparently you looked I looked I didn't see anything. My first thing I do is before I ask for something uh the public records request I look for it and I couldn't find anything. I mean but again I was at a the you didn't attend it was the uh it was a forum about the override and [clears throat] a a resident got up and said that they couldn't find anything on the website >> which is
029I think pretty accurate. I mean, I actually can't I can't I can't even find the public [laughter] record, WHICH IS KIND OF FUNNY. >> I wish that was more prominent. I think it used to be and now you have to go to like two pages or all the way down and you have to kind of know it's there. Agreed. It's not >> Yeah. It's like if I don't know what some of the navigation buttons are, I have to keep going deeper and deeper trying to find them. Um, >> so I and those things are I we've heard about the people not you know needing the website needing improvement for a long time and I get that government has a lot of things to do too but what what we would like or what I would
030like to see is where does that fit in the plan and how can that be tackled and it can be can it be improved slowly right I'm not an all or nothing person and snap my fingers and >> oh it's going to cost a million dollars right is there a way to phase it in and make it better and can you show progress so that we'd like to see that I think on the goals goals and objectives. >> Yeah, that seems good. These elusive goals and objectives or I don't know since no ONE CAN FIND THEIR WAY around the website. I mean, I don't know what it could be under. Who knows? Um, all right. So, uh, where am I? Suggested improvements. Uh, >> can I can I There's a couple things. So, >> yeah.
031anything. >> There's two things that come to mind when we talk about that. Sometimes if you mention you have questions or you mention improvements, I feel like it the reaction is is um an attack on public service and I think that's a disservice to everyone and I wish that would stop and and to me that goes with communication and clear listening instead of of acting like it's an attack. Um, I also think that I feel like a lot of times we get curated information, which doesn't mean it's incorrect, but it might be part of the story. And I feel like if we just focus on getting out the facts and not the curated version, that's a better starting point. >> I love that curated. And see, that's part of going back to the overall transparency
032issue. Um that um I lost my dream about here. Uh that we're we're being given selective bits of information and it's like just don't don't self- select stuff. just let us read it and then we can arrive at our own uh analysis or our own whatever we think about it. Instead, it's you know being fed to us in little drips and drabs and it's I don't know. I think we should I totally agree that we should not do that. >> Well, and I think um related to that I I'm listening to a book right now. does. It's um Why We Did It by Tim Miller. And it's not really the the purpose of the book if you read it, but he does very much talk about using communication as a way to manipulate voters. And
033I that comes back to how it's really we should be sensitive about what we're reading and and getting from really any source, but particularly about government. And I think you you and I both want to have that better communication with the public. It's not just it should not just be one way from town hall to the people. >> Yes, we need two too. At a minimum, we need to and it'll probably be even more because the more people that are involved, the more information different people bring to the conversation or someone might translate something a little bit different in their head. And I I don't know. I think it's a a product like for a private product, they always because I work for a private corporation and they they work closely with the customer to
034make sure they're getting what the customer wants and I mean we are the customer but you you never know that. Um, so I want to uh I guess we will wrap this up for today. And um I want to announce the podcast is now on Apple and Spotify. And hooray. And thank you for Paul, the technology director, for getting that taken care of. Uh apparently, you know, it it takes >> [music]